Michael Clarke

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Dave Robson  0:08  
The copyright of this recording is vested in the BECTU history project. The subject is Michael Clark, producer, director and editor of documentary films interviewed by john legard. The date is 22, October 1993. This is side one. And the file  number is 299.

John Legard  0:37  
Running, Michael, perhaps you'd like to start by telling us about your childhood, where you were born and your family and so on. And then carrying on from there. And I will probably interpret your question now and again.

Michael Clarke  0:52  
Okay, well, I'm not quite sure where I was born, sounds improbable. My first office savings was taken out by my uncle the day I was born, so electron, which is now a suburb of Warrington, and his uncle was a curate. But I think I was born in the rectory at anthropos. My mother was the daughter of the rector and tapas now, I can't have been because he died was born. So it must have been somewhere in the Warrington area. I was put on my passport latchworth and I had some difficulty trying to renew the passport in Dhaka when the British Embassy couldn't find a Latchworth. But eventually they got Israel first off. Anyway, my father left the army as an unemployed subaltern and after the First World War, and eventually got a job to my mother's employer was seminal gluckstein. In gluckstein, relatives firm Joe Lyons, which he didn't like, and we stayed until he eventually retired at 71 or two. All years from 1990, up to the beginning of the war 99 he was employed on the basis no notice is given or required. You can imagine how he was continually anxious about being unemployed, though, in fact, he rose to very senior position and, and refused the job of an employee director. He said, there's nothing lower in the companies and employees director. Anyway, with some difficulty they sent me to college college, we were living in college and later in Norwood, at that time. And I went to the school which is, was, I think, an extremely good school. I didn't believe it at the time. Except, of course, when I regeneration, having been born in 1990, which still in terms of the rigid classical education, which has the benefit of disadvantages. I took the positive again, I was put on the classical side, because there's a physical strain in my family in my late arm towards the deputy head of children, ladies college is it was a classical scholar of some repute. And her father, my grandfather, my father's father also was particularly a scholar in the work of a Socrates, a deservedly forgotten I think fourth century Greek writer. So my mother, who had tremendous Felicity at school, the house was filled with her prizes. From an early age, she too, was on plastic, so I had to do a test. And it says at the time, he wants to go into events, so useful because then you know, the origins of medical words, which is possible to the target good reason. So I took him got the highest was in a good three years, because of regular examination, and eventually got not Alaska scholarship. That's an exhibition became very rich as a cheap stock. In other words, with up to modern college, which has been my father's college, so I'm not as terribly so family conscious person, and that's how it worked out in 1938. To bring the classics, modern college at that time was a terrible place. It was 70% eternia. That's true. We're very comfortable with each other, but some have been tremendous techniques of supercilious politeness. Most of my friends in the university came outside in college. In the university, I discovered politics and they discovered sex on Sunday night. better sex or more or less dabbling sex than at school. But I must say, I think it's very important to go to a great school. Because you do make it your friends, sisters, and so forth. And you can do things, especially in a large city, in the evenings on the weekends with people who have complained in boarding schools strikes me as responsible for a great deal of trouble the country's

anyway, at Cambridge, I read classics while you're on it. So like school, it's unbelievable.

Do this unseen by Monday to repurposes by Wednesday, I was also expected to read the entire canon of Greek and Latin literature within one year, which if you look at the length of certain things, like Plato's Republic, is quite subtle. And I realised, though I was pretty good grammar. So far, I never really had a feel. I got rather involved with the socialist club. And later, as most people did, who were serious about this, it was that time with the student communist project. This was, if you remember, in 1938, and nine, full of Albania, the fall of episodio, being a little earlier, the invasion of Czechoslovakia, and the threat of a world war. And we all believe that collective security might with the Russians of all Europe and other European countries and send it off. And we had lots and lots of marches and things. And you will see me as Americans, me and my wife in Michael Lauren's film fragment memory, which he made 40 years later, after about his university days, I was organising a March, I will come up in a second from the United Front. Now,

John Legard  6:58  
I remember that film as it was on on television not so long ago, about three four years ago.

Michael Clarke  7:03  
That's why many of us have a copy of it and Michael are looking into doing this series, but not by

Unknown Speaker  7:09  
me by somebody.

Michael Clarke  7:11  
And that, of course, brings us to my interest into that school in the mid 30s. It's a become thing to be interested in films. I don't mean a trendy way so much as they were thought to have something a bit better than entertainment was entertainment, then they had a quality that other entertainment media didn't have. As you remember, we were all entranced by the film 100 men and a girl with Deanna Durbin and levels Sakowski or Stokes as before, but with the power of the way in which sound recording and the way in which the film was edited, gave us the dimension which is quite different to any other experience of music that we had, whether it's concerts or making music ourselves nowadays was a very miserable school. I played the oboe and then then from there, and they also relieve relief on the symphony because 10% leverage cancel our strip centre. So I had a lot of musical experience. And I was very lucky that my first full master was jack Westbrook, who became the Minister of music at Oxford.

John Legard  8:25  
He was really sorry, what this 100 men undergo? Did you have a sort of film society that we were running in?

Michael Clarke  8:34  
West? No, what a wonderful cinema, which inside has an amazing tickle, like ruin, ruin with some everything except the bats flying about three stars to perceive the Raptors, one of those elaborate cinemas, which are lost when I think it's important. And but then we got interested in also going back to school and we got interested in French films we didn't really know at that time, or German films. I haven't heard of Eisenstein, I haven't heard of Fred Molnar or anybody like that. But we knew about French films. I can't remember which ones came in what order the films with Gabby, and with alesi and people like that. By the time the walker law called the loser was unfamiliar. And we didn't have a film society. No, we should have done. Did you?

John Legard  9:36  
Did you have an interest at a very early age? in cinema? I mean, did your folks did your parents take

Unknown Speaker  9:44  
you when things

John Legard  9:47  
like myself, I mean, I started as an incredibly early age, I was about five when I was first taking pictures. He should see me. Very precocious. Those days on five years of being tempted to normally spend time with those whom I saw was silent. It was an

Michael Clarke  10:01  
overwhelming I can just remember seeing the signup process that the something of a civilian blue screen, which is between these towers and I remember in Tokyo on holiday when I was 15 seeing Leni Riefenstahl's new light, which is about an amazing film, mountain, and the whole preschool I thought

John Legard  10:27  
I should mention katoki because the first time I ever which was a picture's worth dorky 1929 they showed a film called Willie confer, which I never heard of since.

Unknown Speaker  10:40  
Anyway, so and

Michael Clarke  10:40  
then, George, for me that that sort of moment cinnabar perhaps once a week having news to me this statistics, that doesn't mean that people were incentivized once a week. What was it 1/3 of them confessed that they took my shoes off. So survey revealed. Anyway, at the university, I met Michael on who has a I think it was a Catholic School of 9.5 cameras, a woman's pocket holes in the middle. And I got it was very, very vague. But I thought I remember hitchhiking all the way to Bristol, to see him in the vacation and say, let's make a film about Cambridge. And he said, Yes, but what I said, Well, you know, film about Cambridge, and he nearly said, or act pre echo the remark that I was always to make Stuart leg when he went off one of his flights. Run to see yes, but where do I put the camera? I just had this vague idea that the nice thing about Cambridge, I realised with Michael was happy about something. And we started plotting this, but it didn't get any farther. Meanwhile, Michael, as a matter of routine covered what he thought was interesting, particularly these things like demonstrations, political demonstrations, and marches. And then, of course, the pacifist demonstrations as well. Right. And he kept all that stuff. And Michael saw himself I think, from the very beginning as a film, first, I would say a cinematographer, or director, as a film that has been his his life, his consciousness of itself is that he's, he knows about other things. But his loyalty is to the concept of film, that he now has to make embrace television. And all his daughter's work in film as well, amazingly. So then I developed a lot of what I call support was a great sense of social responsibility. And I thought I had various political remedies for the

Michael Legard  12:40  
syndrome. And they were unnatural for the documentary movement.

Michael Clarke  12:45  
reasons, I think, I don't think men should mock this at all. Young people, quite often have more decent feelings between the ages of 18 and 24. On the other hand, I mean, they will start compromising. But I have also then, I hadn't heard about documentary films, and I've seen nightmare. And I think I might have seen coface I was a great fan of ordinance, and to a lesser extent spend the day Lewis It was a marvellous feeling, sort of feeling of growing up, I realised it just seemed natural the world was the old world was so cool for a number of things. I'm sure we should all be as happy. And I think it seems like that. But of course, the war came, and I decided to not to take charge. So I thought I'd go into the tax, because I like motor cars and engines,

Michael Legard  13:43  
see where you were in Cambridge upshall?

Michael Clarke  13:46  
Yeah, I wasn't until 1914 until August 2014. But so decided to volunteer and be called up and who knows what happened. So I thought I'd go into tanks. And so I've got my name done. nothing much happened. I switched to English literature at the University by this time, and was trying to do two years work in one apart one, and also conduct a rather elaborate affair with my, with my wife, which she still is, and get very involved in politics. And this didn't work out too well. Eventually, I resigned from the Communist Party, I sent a letter to john Maynard Smith, celebration biologist, Vice President of society, using the Secretary of State and communist who resigned from the Communist Party. They told me they should not put work for my political duty. They've had an earlier stage. So the work before you open is to do my academic work. Yeah. My political views at that time. I think this is I remember Roger was probably to be a case. Yes, because in service in invasion of the German invasion, Yeah, so the Soviet German piecepack, the Malecon, right, yeah. So whatever it was, I was determined that I was not going to fail, really pleased my mother's mother. Because she was champion, such as imago was prices and things. And I was dominated by the expectations. This is an important thing. If you're made to feel, you're just not quite good enough. This can actually dogu for those who struggle to be a bit better than other peoples in charge in this article, saying, I've never done it before.

And somebody else will do it. And they do it very, very well. Come back to me with most of my move from everything that was happening off for filming.

Compare the price tag now. It's so awesome. So I volunteer for the tags. And eventually, I've finished Cambridge in summer, and waiting to be called up. Didn't know when it's going to be. So I looked for those jobs. And I turned on the job system tonight for Carlton Hotel. Because it was nice to hear that my wife was finding a job to do. It just got married, we got married and I was there Cambridge. Didn't seem a good idea. And eventually I got a job as an usher at the komak Palace, Louis, my interest. And this was I got I remember the signal Exactly. I got to pound 14 week. split time from nine in the morning till two and then from Sunday morning to 12. And then whenever we open to either two until six for six left, and Lewisham was to go home. No one has to do something all the time. It's not much. Anyway, I did this and I had the audio saying the only film I can actually remember is Swanee River. Whatever film was on I saw it, I think it was 80 times in a week. The other rules there's one free ticket during the week pass a pass for one's wife, or mother or sister whoever. Yeah. Anyway, I thought I've learned something about filmmaking because I don't think that you obviously began to do other things. This is the time and there was a marvellous work

Unknown Speaker  17:47  
station.

Michael Clarke  17:52  
Then there is this is typical to the office two or three in the morning. And it was the only cell phone so it started inviting people to film they have the talent to come up and say you know this is not very embarrassing because the shows always got four more Bodie until eventually it stopped. Somebody called the police. Interesting because he was junk. I mean, there's no alcohol available instead of off if people got drunk on one situation I think

Michael Legard  18:23  
you get to say that you performing occasionally on manolio might be well it's

Michael Clarke  18:27  
no I didn't have a go on it once. I was only once allowed by the organist. Anyway, and then I was in the army. This is taking to live and a lot of thought.

Dave Robson  18:36  
And it's all it's all part of the fabric.

Michael Clarke  18:38  
It's very good. And that was cool that went to Farnborough to learn to be a trooper. The film industry came up here again unwittingly because in the 50s What was it who do second training regiment in the bathroom opposite me the opposite bed was Richard green. Later of Robin Hood thing. That time he was called Brylcreem green because he muddle through all the Brylcreem at first when the bus is

Michael Legard  19:09  
quite a star. Actually, that wasn't.

Michael Clarke  19:12  
He had come back from Hollywood to join up and of course, his agents and medical press story about this, or that photographed him joining as he came up with about the case and all that. And then the next bed to him was Peter wills, who became head of drama, first of all at Rediffusion. And then I think that Yorkshire he died recently. He was, I think, very well known as the Head of Drama. He was a big part actor at that time had also been to Hollywood. That's right. That's right, as well, yes, that's right. And they used to golf together, meeting all their staging friends, David Newman, was at all the shots at the time. He was a major and they knew him And also for some reason Olivier was older he was a naval officer, I think was Pepsi adforum hadn't turned up at this point he was in the district. And they all used to go off and get him to travel to meeting these this lot in pubs where the bars were for other regular officers. Well, then we all went to the opt to, which is a cut down version of Sandhurst. And then it was all right, because officer cadet so a lot of uniform, a little white strap stripes on their shoulder, they were allowed in the bars to meet all these people. I never danced with Vivian, the only those lovely opportunities that people accuse me of having afterwards my wife in particular, I never met her. In fact, I did see her this past there's one particular part. So I then got posted. And I then became a gunnery instructor. Now in Sandhurst, I was in a building that was hit by a bomb I was actually in the building. Now, this is relevant because to being a gunnery instructor, because a tank gunner tech tank gunner is a person who fires very powerful guns in enclosed spaces. And to be an instructor means you have exposed to rather more, these loud explosions then would otherwise be the case. And I was then when I went to the Middle East and was shot out of a couple of tanks was virtually blown up by a near my shell. And so this I attribute my deafness, which started to come on not immediately by any means. But when I was about 45, or 50. And there's got progressively worse, nerve damage through loud noises. And is meant actually, well, not that I'm working anymore. Because last film, I made it three years ago, for the last 15 years, I have had to get the sound recorders to make judgments about sound balance, and the sound level. And I don't know how many other people in the film industry have had this problem, except there was a sound recorders to my plants better not name, in case you're still living, who we can all swear was deaf, because he had the sound level on the monitor during a dub or calling. so incredibly high, but it was not a painful if you

Michael Legard  22:29  
just pause for a second. Okay, we're on.

Michael Clarke  22:34  
So in the Middle East, I went out on a draft of our Cape Town, where Incidentally, Africa entertained us as the inhabitants very kindly did but tried to persuade us to desert because the war again, was fundamentally wrong. And Hitler was the Saviour of the world. But we said no, thank you very much and went on, went on the Middle East, and I got posted to the first royal Tank Regiment, which is then refitting near car. And this is a 9040 to 3042. And we trained with these new American tanks called grants and honeys, and then the Germans broke through in the area near Tobruk and we went into great hurry up to repel them. And I think I had the distinction of commanding the first of these American tanks to be knocked out. I never saw it coming as it were. They contained 140 gallons of high octane aviation's for to drive them they had aeroplane engines in their back, and 100 rounds of 75 mil evolution and when they caught fire as we didn't know at the time, they actually blew up and they watched my engine or rather tuned here as the whole turret wing, many tonnes went up in the air and fell and the odds were I was not the last one It means to suffer this fate and indeed I suffered it again about a month later and got blown out of a tank and injured and my foot in my head and with luck just managed to get back to me not not captured and talking the hospital in Korea at this time the This was on the retreat and the other main line was just forming my own hospital before that really stabilised and then downgraded one grade and they didn't know what to do with me. So I was sent to India with three other officers I was the glory of being a Second Lieutenant at this time with three other officers and nine sergeants to teach the last host regiment of the British Army. So he was tanks. This was the 14th 20th was ours. We arrived the day they had just said farewell to their 900 steers which they put on a train and we weren't very popular. Anyway, we didn't teach them to Tanks, I was there to teach calorie and wireless procedure radio was called wireless in those days. I mean, tanks have a lot of radio in them. And this was done. And they were all ready to do something practical when Mountbatten arrived as the commander in chief and turned them into jungle infantry. So once again, nobody knew what to do with me. So because I was not to go back from Middle East until I was upgraded, and Meanwhile, the The doctors said I was permanently creating B, I'm not quite sure why but they did. Well, I didn't want to face any germs. If I could do my duties from safe away, I'd done enough of that. So I didn't mind. So I asked the government intelligence course in Karachi, which was enormous fun. We made all sorts of elaborate strategic plans about how to repel and in Russia and Russian invasion through Afghanistan and so forth, although the Russians were allies, but it was all good training. And after that, then once again, nobody knew what to do with me. So I went to New Delhi headquarters for little and then asked to go back to the Middle East. Back in the Middle East, I was posted to become an intelligence officer at the headquarters in Palestine. When I was there, I was rapidly recruited by what's called the defence security office. This was in point of fact, an outstation of EMI five, and was concerned with counterespionage and internal security. in Palestine, my principal job was to write the political reports, the weekly and the monthly reports for Downing Street. And this meant that I had to know as much as possible, everything concerned with the country and got all the communities, the Arab and the Jewish communities and all their various strains and stresses and the religious conflicts as well. And it suited me down to the ground. And I saved two and a half years during this a marvellous time with many Arab and many Jewish friends. And we all met it was peace in Jerusalem. And one particular friend, a man called Gabriel jebra, because a little later, I left sorry, we're talking about 943,

Michael Legard  27:23  
talking about 43

Michael Clarke  27:25  
to 46.

Unknown Speaker  27:28  
All right, yes.

Michael Clarke  27:32  
And I remember Roger Manville came out for the British Council or possibly the army educational thing, and gave some lectures on film, Roger man who was later described by the late Stuart leg as a man of the face, like a poached egg, who stands on the street corner, taking a cut from everything as it passes. Description I've never forgotten. But at that time, he typically he was still writing his famous Pelican called film, which did a great deal to encourage and interest people in film. And Roger was much mocked after this, but I went avidly to his lectures in the YMCA Jerusalem.

Michael Legard  28:14  
Apparently, the first edition of that film, if you've got to meet first edition of film by Roger Manville is quite valuable. I have one,

Michael Clarke  28:23  
very carefully keep the first edition as well as the second and you know why apart from the value?

Michael Legard  28:29  
Well, because of these extraordinary errors of fact that the particular era

Michael Clarke  28:33  
was the one that was why is the film 24 frames whatever it is, in advance of the relevant frame? These there was because what is it some takes longer to travel than the light? And I've kept it for this reason this. Yeah, well, I

Michael Legard  28:51  
think that's why it's so precious because of these, for the one to one or two romand but also

Michael Clarke  28:56  
in Jerusalem had very good bookshops, and I picked up roses book documentary. And that influenced me a great deal. It took me many years and seeing a lot of the films referred to later on to realise that so often the stills of the films were better than the film is a beautiful still a member of Cavalcanti, as we live in two worlds, which enchanted me when I saw the film, but it was really hard for now. I think they still have been taken by both gang so shecky Actually, I guess I'm not sure. Yeah. So one guy I got interested in films at this point, had the pleasure of seeing myself in desert victory at one point because the first thing that happened to us when we had gone up the desert without tanks, there's a sudden alarm we all advance thinking that the enemy has broken through over a region battle line and there was an army kinematic draft cooperation caravan filming away. This was a splendid shot, which later was used several times in

Michael Legard  29:56  
the next time. I have a look at Desert Victoria.

Michael Clarke  30:03  
Did you? Yeah, I'm sure you wouldn't see me because the tanks had to be closed down was through Periscope. All right. Yeah. So it was I suppose the time. Do you remember?

Michael Legard  30:13  
jack home spoke deadening commentary of desert victory?

Michael Clarke  30:17  
Never. Very well.

Michael Legard  30:19  
I was absolutely astonished because I saw it again not very long ago and jack Holmes,

Michael Clarke  30:24  
but I recognise his voice when I do hear it I don't think I've ever seen doesn't make any sense. But I know that Jack's voices is

Michael Legard  30:31  
the main commentator was Leo again, of course, because he spoke voiceovers for a lot of those war films. But jack did the particular. It was interesting point.

Michael Clarke  30:42  
So Roger Mandel and reading roses books, and there were other various film books. I can't remember,

Michael Legard  30:47  
of course, you'd already established your interest in cinema when you're at Cambridge, you kind of wish. You hadn't thought of it as a career. It was more of an

Michael Clarke  30:56  
Intel London thing of a career now, when the wall was clearly gradually being won or coming to them. The dreadful thought having to have a career. I had been earmarked for publishing, my tutor at Cambridge was ascending to the University Press. So they used to take trainees from university. And I was going to be one of these I believe that publishing of that time as an occupation for gentlemen is Frederick Walberg calls it his autobiography, which one realises now that is this is commercial as any other business anyway, interested in film. But what then happened was that I drew a ticket in the famous leave ballot. Those who have been overseas for more than three years, were entitled to enter a ballot for a month leave in the UK. We will be shipped or flown home I want to call it the my amazement, I drew a ticket went home. And, of course, I saw Michael, because he wasn't in the army. He has been directed as an engineer. He was trained as an electrical engineer. He was working for what I think is now EMI,

Unknown Speaker  32:07  
right.

Michael Clarke  32:08  
And he then had a very bad electric shock and review made extremely ills The result of this has been so to speak, emptied it out, and he knew Rosa and Rosa had been trying to get him out to help him on I think would have plenty. But after Michael was ill, he somehow was allowed to go into the film industry to make sci fi films, in other words, different war effort. And so Michael kindly allowed me asked Ruth if you see me and Rosa, for some reason seem to like me. And he said, you know, young people who have been fighting you have acquired so much experience so much savoir faire, and I sort of glow with this, I didn't know I had a server affair. Anyway, so he virtually promised me a job when I was demobbed, which would have been about a year since you're further on. Well, I then went back to the Middle East, and finally having done my appropriate service, and I think it was something like four years, two months, was shipped back home to the office, but they didn't know what to do with me. So they set me in law office, trying to see whether the numbers on Russian lorries perceived by our consoles in Eastern Europe made any sense. But do they indicate anything about the Russian Order of Battle? And I'm no cryptographer. And anyway, it turns out in the end, all these numbers were quite random. So I spent five months in the war office during which time Rosa said, Look, country apply for early demobilisation because the world is rich was just starting, which was the successor to world aplenty. And Michael Oren was the editor. And I was to be the assistant but in the end, I didn't get any advancement. But I went down on a date in June I can't remember, got my nice blue suit and my true behat spare shoes from the demo centre and put them on and went straight back to 12. Doblin Street, where Michael showed me what his profit was, and was a joiner was and what films are meant if you're gonna remember that stuff was, and so forth. And I started with Rosa. Well, what I liked about Ruth, who was I think, very important figure for me, and for everybody was he was a realist in the sense of politically realist filmmaker, compared with the sort of rather undoubted quality but dreamy idealism versus a basket, right they were as poles apart. And I like what I liked also about Reza was that he didn't try to steal the credit from young people. He wanted the credit for having chosen the young people and he never pretended on Like Arthur Elton, who every film author wants his films to be called Elton's film and Elton film. Bertha just had Rosa foregrounds it the directors and the editors. And he did everything he could to help them or even get them better jobs and other companies

Michael Legard  35:23  
is very interesting because he wrote those about the only produced documentary producer I never worked for I've never even I probably shook hands with him once. And so I'm very interested to hear about this. And I think it's important for them, as

Michael Clarke  35:34  
well, because he he had all the things against him, he somehow destroyed everything he worked for. This pattern seem to be repeated again and again. And films effect as the company I joined, was called, eventually A year later, folded up, rather had a lot of very good political context, but he sometimes used too often to get to try to get so to speak more consideration than his word warranted. But his films were world aplenty, and the world is rich, and the housing well now what was that called? I

Michael Legard  36:14  
forgot it was one he did about Manchester there. That's

Michael Clarke  36:18  
a city speech, directed by Francis guyson. With marvellous music by below and I saw it again recently. He also did the famous film The fourth estate for the times, which was suppressed for 40 or 50 years, perhaps Russia that the NFT last year I think I went swiftly to see it a bit disappointing.

Michael Legard  36:40  
Yes, of course, that was his peak period, wasn't it when you when you join them in the world, well aplenty in the world as rich those are his really sort of famous for

Michael Clarke  36:47  
absolutely

Michael Legard  36:51  
not he'd been making films for several I mean, before the war, quite distinguished work.

Michael Clarke  36:56  
He was the man who was sent to let's go back, Florida. He was sent by Grissom to make film which later became called industrial Britain. And he went to I think it was Manchester, then to the north industrial north. And after some months, the budget had run out. And Florida was still shooting tests, as he called it. Reza was sent by Grayson to Manchester to the Royal Hotel, I think it was to tell flat it that his bill, the hotel bill for him and the crew will not be honoured after the next morning after breakfast, and that he was to come back. And Florida he was furious and not broke downstairs. But in the end, that film was edited from Florida circle tests. And the I think Stuart leg denigrated it rather than print. I thought it was really an extremely interesting, purely impressionistic, as it were, pray, pray, praise of British skills in obviously the iron and steel and steam age.

Michael Legard  38:07  
That was quite early, wasn't it? That was industrial Britain was 3838. I think it might be known in the

Unknown Speaker  38:14  
mid 30s. Yes.

Michael Legard  38:17  
But of course it also his claim to fame as these books that rose out of the film till now and yes,

Michael Clarke  38:25  
well, exactly. And he always went on writing. And when during those terrible cold week, when I joined races when none of us could work or there was no power and rancour just made some small gestures towards British films I've gotten blocked by allowing some tiny quota of British made non non Hollywood majors films to have exhibition. I remember writing an article at home for something to do called Mr ranks gesture which are sent to the New Statesman and normal McKenzie who later became president in Sussex and a friend of mine remembers passing that and it was printed I was absolutely amazed in the post, and two days later, a proof arrived for correction that this really made my day to day I thought the use days from when it was a major paper of two swords police politics at the beginning but mostly sharp criticism when

Michael Legard  39:21  
the best in those days, I was really chuffed.

Michael Clarke  39:26  
Arthur said, one when he saw everybody took the seats when the I saw him a Friday morning when he obviously opened it with his breakfast and he said congratulations on that article. Now whatever you do, don't give up your writing. And he said that to me several times. I did give it up. But at that time, I was also a film critic, rather than left wing general magazine called our time. Good bye. Randall swingler, whose brother Humphrey swingler became an MP and also married

Michael Legard  39:58  
Steven swingler became known P

Michael Clarke  40:00  
students would do so

Michael Legard  40:03  
was joined us at Crown actually

Michael Clarke  40:06  
married camela Vance was an editor. That's it, yes. And was a school Sham of Margo fleischner, who became model goes through. And Randall swingler was always the poet and novelist, and Monte Slater and others were involved. Anyway, so Rosa said, don't give up your writing, whereas Edgar ansty later when I wrote wrote a broadcast for BBC, on what, on the Cotswolds, from the point of view was making a film about the Cotswolds was furious with me and said, You should have asked my permission, although I was only a freelance. And I should have seen the text first. And Isn't that

Michael Legard  40:45  
fascinating? Yes. That is actually understand the voice. I can imagine agar taking that

Michael Clarke  40:49  
I wasn't on this on the staff then. I was a freelance at that time, so we'll get to that. Yeah, I'm being very slow.

Michael Legard  41:02  
Actually, you're talking about you're in the cutting rooms on the world is rich and that presumably where you saved? The power cuts? That must have been the winter of 1946 4747 years old? You were editing? And you say, yes,

Michael Clarke  41:15  
there was the most It was a stock shot film, almost entirely. Yes. I was actually employed to get the assent of George Elvin as an assistant librarian, assistant film librarian.

Michael Legard  41:26  
I see. Yes. Because as far

Michael Clarke  41:28  
as I got six pounds 10 shillings week.

Unknown Speaker  41:32  
You were doing well.

Michael Legard  41:33  
I would say

Michael Clarke  41:34  
that time. Yes. Not too bad. I thought. Yeah. As we were just about to have a baby, it was a good thing.

Dave Robson  41:43  
And

Michael Clarke  41:44  
so I learned all this. And that time, I suppose we do the same thing today, the source every source like Pathan news or whatever it might be had a code number. And this was scratched every 12 frames over 15 frames on the sound mass. Only with a needle.

John Legard  42:05  
Did you not have a numbering machine then?

Unknown Speaker  42:08  
Did you not?

Michael Legard  42:11  
know but actually not everybody? Did? You could I mean,

Michael Clarke  42:14  
I've never actually seen a numbering machine I sent things away to be numbered. But I don't want 120 different sources.

Unknown Speaker  42:23  
Is it

Michael Legard  42:24  
far easier in a way because you only had so much stuff coming in and you wanted to get it? As you were logging it, you wanted to get marked up? Again? Yeah, that's right, guys, if you sent it away, there's

Michael Clarke  42:37  
over 100 different sources, you have to develop a different sort of system for your unused text cuts and overs and spares from what you will for continuous production, I think continuous original material.

Michael Legard  42:49  
It sounds like a bit of a drudgery that they're having to scratch on 1000s of feet,

Michael Clarke  42:55  
I didn't mind I you know, I was so chuffed to be a professional filmmaker, that for a while I used to go around with my scissors sticking out of this pocket so that people in Soho know that was actually what you were,

Unknown Speaker  43:08  
what your trade,

Michael Clarke  43:09  
I was really trapped. Don't forget that one had spent six years in the services and one came out, according to rofa experiences some ways but quite immature in some other ways. Never having had to find out what peacetime life is like and the normal sort of competition for work or decisions of that kind. And of course Paul is so whom we knew suffered from this all his life also

Michael Legard  43:37  
who is a scriptwriter at

Michael Clarke  43:40  
zombies transport been called up as a boy soldier.

John Legard  43:45  
Right for years.

Michael Clarke  43:46  
And I remember him telling me that when he left the army, the agonist he suffered having to go and choose a shirt or a pair of socks. He said he won't believe it, but he was in desperately notice. For months. Well, I wasn't the least nervous, but I was immature enough to be very proud of myself walking out with my scissors in my pocket. And I loved the physicality of film. I mean, I like to rewind sooner I like the skill that one develops these trivial things, not making a dog up in the middle, all that sort of thing. All the simple manual techniques. And my friend Ralph Sheldon always said that the reason he will not go into electronic editing ever, is simply because he likes the tactile

Dave Robson  44:32  
nature of what we were talking about. He's talking about certainly,

Unknown Speaker  44:36  
who was who was well, they were

John Legard  44:40  
talking about this.

Michael Clarke  44:41  
I think it'd be a good idea to put Ralph in through this process as well because he tends to vary widely.

Michael Legard  44:46  
Indeed, Ralph should certainly be interviewed. Yeah.

Michael Clarke  44:49  
Anyway. Well, the world is rich eventually got me and I had the curious job of supervising the studio, LinkedIn sequences, rather caricature figures of The Indian rajas and greedier battalions to symbolise attitudes to food because I've been in the army and been to India. I was as it were, in charge of costume, the Indian secrets, and so forth. And I remember we had to get special permission for Ministry of Food for the eggs and ham and flour to make the dish it was to be eaten and a lovely lady was the PR of Ministry of Food said I know what we will have. We will have a quiche Lorena none of us ever heard of tea Florian. It's not an exotic an exquisite thing nowadays. Cause

John Legard  0:07  
Side two 

John Hargreaves  0:10  
the T slot array in which was the dish to be shown being moved by greedy properties. All this was made and filmed in a studio in crystal Street, which I think Simba came worldwide premises for a time. And then they gave it up and went to the place in the alley north of waterstreet. Hill, they're not. Well, films effect continued with the world is rich and it was

Michael Legard  0:38  
really sorry, were you abide by this time? Were you a member of a CT

John Hargreaves  0:42  
as a member of actt after? Can you remember, I think I had to be employed for three probationary months as a probationary member. That's why

Unknown Speaker  0:51  
it is probation. That's

John Hargreaves  0:52  
right, then I was a probationer. And then after whatever the due period was, I was a member. The word is rich was finished, but rather had several other contracts. And the next thing I had to do is to make vectors assistant director on two films, both made for the Royal National lifeboat institution. A short film to be directed by Michael are on called Night launch, which is 10 minutes long. And a long film, directed by jack Holmes called I think, a fisherman's yarn. And that film was written by Franco comma, the Irish poet and famous short story writer and great friend of jack Holmes. These films were both made in Hastings with the fishing community there, the eastern end of Hastings, or those lovely black net loss and so on, some of which are still there, and in the old town, the little old town that claims in this narrow streets up the hill. And the significant thing about the Hastings lifeboat from the point of view of the film was that it did not slide into the city down the slipway. It had to be whole by a couple of dozen volunteers whenever there was an alarm along the promenade along the foreshore to as a slipway further away. This is simply because of the geography of the place at the time. And Michael arms film night launch was a I think virtually uncompensated film. Certainly from Michael's point of view, it was a true film, film and editors film. I mean, we were all put off canon Eisenstein filmmakers, and we'd all started things like the first film book I ever bought, I think was Vladimir Nielsen's. cinemas graphic art. Good, some great work, I think. And this was the first film that Michael was directing. And I had not been an assistant director before but I soon learned that it was it was and who was

Michael Legard  3:02  
your who else worked on that?

John Hargreaves  3:05  
Jimmy Ritchie was the principal camera man and what a beautiful lighting camera man from night exteriors. He was wonderful. I always felt he was wasted as a producer. Marvellous camera mad standing a marvellous bloke. One of my greatest friends in the end, lovely man. And john Reed was a second camera man with an IMO. aghori Yes. It was agreed that the night launch was it was a one off. I mean, you had these 40 or 50 people launch them this night, the lifeboat with Moe Richardson's my entire stock lights of the largest light then I think it was a 5k. And so more than one camera I seem to remember there was a third camera I'm not sure. And Michael got it all worked out very precisely planned. And after the first night shooting, he told me that he simply couldn't sleep constantly at all because he kept re cutting the shots in his head. He was terrified that it wouldn't work and so forth. Chet Holmes this film was quite different. It was a long yard. I can't remember what the arm was now. But it was about some conflict in the fishing community. And the apparent villain of the piece was a man who actually in real life was called nasty bumstead he was always known as nasty nasty, it was a nickname but he was abused affectionately variable is a morning nasty. And because Frank O'Connor couldn't resist using this name in in the film as well. And there were some, I just cannot remember what the plot of it was. I remember the making of it because we were out at sea and back again. It was something to do with a false call. But Jacko was a different lovely amount of workers. He

Michael Legard  4:55  
was a very experienced director Wasn't he

John Hargreaves  4:58  
like to be served In the features from malah, he wants to be told what he was shooting. Next morning, he had a script, which was precise. And he wanted to be reminded that they read down on the number the post office this morning. And we're going to begin with the same with nasty and the policeman. And he would go ahead and do it. He was, I think he couldn't be an improviser. But he wasn't at

Michael Legard  5:24  
all he was meticulous, as far as I was concerned as an editor editing his film, ocean terminal. I remember we went through the whole script after him with all the shortlist and so on all the shooting records, because he knows we spent about a day and a half, you know, he knew exactly where everything wanted to go.

John Hargreaves  5:41  
He was how you can, it's always worried me as a documentary director that the reality will never turn out quite like that. So there was a studio based condition, because reality wasn't good enough. He also the reality, you know, as the building moves or enlarge,

Michael Legard  5:57  
yeah, but he always said, I remember that, you know, if it if you find a better way of doing it, you know, go ahead. No, he did do that. Yeah, he's always made those a lot.

John Hargreaves  6:05  
He was also very articulate about methods or things that I think I would otherwise have picked up just by Charles I mean, little techniques like you Pamela personal, then stop and let as the person leaves the camera, it reveals something quite different. People were very worried about transitions in the, in the 40s. And presumably earlier, I had long arguments many years later, with my dear friend now to my nose, not arguments for the discussions, because he had been brought up the notion that the film should always flow. And I took the view of as an informative film, not necessarily instructional, informative documentary, should sometimes let the audience know that we have finished this piece. And now we're going to do that fit. That as it were, it should intimate by the anticipation. Yes. And he felt that the construction should always be just a continuous flow, like a sort of continuous waveform. And so he took the point and then did it very well. But it's just he said, Well, that's how Grissom brought me out. And I said, well, but the other people like McAllister, who didn't have things that always flourish are but they didn't always flow. And then so we analyse what the always flu was, and it was often that the always flow was nothing to do with sense continuity is the motion is the fact that the eye stays in the same bit. And the incoming frame as it will visit the frame on the incoming picture as as it was on the outgoing picture. That so he argued that there was always flow of some sort. And I came from the next generation said to sometimes we want discontinuity.

Michael Legard  7:50  
You can argue in different directions, of course, and I think nowadays, when people break the rules all the time today with them,

John Hargreaves  7:56  
what the rules are almost disappear. I think that But nevertheless, I still think that they are worth keeping if it is easy to keep them simply because the moments of no moments, even being lost for a millisecond can be avoided. If you know the train is moving out when the next time is moving that way, there have never master quiet if the train is seen from the outside of moving that way. And you're inside the train, which way you should be looking. Because the question is whether you're looking forwards on the train at right angles to it.

Michael Legard  8:31  
We suffered from this for years and years and years working with Edgar on films about drains.

And some people would come up with a shock and tell you afterwards that you got the shot in the wrong place because the train was doing

John Hargreaves  8:44  
well films effect packed up before life but films were finished. And in the end, Jimmy Carr worldwide took them on to a really Yes, yes. And I think film's effect. I think you had to go into liquidation.

Michael Legard  9:00  
The fact that before data one day data,

John Hargreaves  9:03  
well they overlapped. They were different. For other productions. PRP was an earlier thing in which Donald Alexander had worked on many others Michael arm and others. But he then started films effect with a man called john Wales,

Unknown Speaker  9:19  
who I remember john

John Hargreaves  9:20  
Wales. He went to the Educational Foundation visual aids. Tall chap. Yes. Yes, yes. lumps of the Fight Club.

Michael Legard  9:30  
Yes, he worked with us for cranfill minute for a time. He is who

John Hargreaves  9:36  
he is, as in North Wales and so on. He went to the Educational Foundation visual aids as its director until a man and then he left it with a man called Harrison I think was approached to film Arthur Elton. In Memorial. He said I mean Memorial at that time for various reasons. It was necessary there's a secondary person should be appointed to the FDA and Harrison was that person.

Unknown Speaker  10:07  
Secondary?

John Hargreaves  10:10  
Yes, I heard the news man, how isn't that I did in fact write a film for them a little later. Scientific film. Well, anyway, films, in fact, packed up. And we also started scurrying around to jobs. And I was offered a job by Donald Alexander and jack chambers that data. And I tried to get my resignation in, but john Wales handed me my dismissal. He got the hint, first, I had my hand. Okay, it was all very amicable. And I started with data as an assistant, because there the tradition was that more or less to an assistant editor, and or system director, according to the stage of goals, the leads or calling to sort of flexitarian film, I mean, one might well be an assistant director on a film and then the director, or others might be the assistant and

Michael Legard  11:03  
so you'd move across from production to Yeah, both of your Yes, this is what happens.

John Hargreaves  11:09  
And this was actually

Michael Legard  11:13  
operating from that data where data

John Hargreaves  11:15  
was in, not to server square, I can't remember the number, it was over the the passage that leads up to turn crossword around the corner next to the Italian cafe. Now data was interesting, because data was a cooperative, a true cooperative. In the sense, it was actually a member of the cooperative to productive producers Federation, together with lots and lots of shoe firms in Leicester corset firms. And part of the cooperative movements as this, but it was the cooperative producers Federation, those who manufacture as opposed to the cooperative wholesale society, which supplied the cooperative retail societies all over the country. And it has something of the ideals of stretching, right back through robidoux. of cooperation. And there was always a left wing, you left data in that sense, it had a lot of people who were in the Communist Party in it, and rather more who weren't. I had briefly rejoined the Communist Party, but I can't say I was particularly active because life was, I was too full, to get too involved. But there was a fairly strong say I say the word communist nowadays, there's benches with horror, but very strong, let's say far left elements in the film industry. At that time, there was people like Sukkot, and so forth, who are famous for it. And not to mention over monteagudo of all people get a Ralph bond, and Ralph bond, and Bessie, Bessie. So this was nothing strange. But there wasn't much time for politics as far as I was concerned with, you know, having a marriage and the new child and later another one, and all this exciting work. And, but it was a co operative, and it had some of the defects these days can have. Because if ever was any trouble, people will try to call a unit meeting or unit meeting, because a meeting of the members of the cooperative, he called on the resolution of I forgot the six or maybe 10 people. And there was a bit of a tendency to stop working or make decisions about how to do the work. Don Alexander was the boss and he had, I suppose I owe him a lot for suggesting me for a job. He had a lot going for him in some ways in others, not I think he had been he was a public school boy from Shrewsbury with, I think, tremendous success, lots and lots of prizes. And he too, I think, had a classics degree. He was he died last a few months ago. Yes, I suppose he was three or four years older than myself, but he had had time to become as it were, someone with a schoolmaster mentality, I think, and he knew what was best. He believed in cooperation and democracy and listening to everybody, but he knew what was best, which is what made him I think, on the whole, a fairly good producer. But he was a bit pie, I thought, and I remember what outrageous thing he said. When we had a unit meeting in the new building was acquired in Greek Street. And Jimmy Ritchie was there and I was there various other people a lot of them have been in the Army or the RF or naval Film Unit, Ron because another one was in the naval Film Unit. And one point during some mild argument, Alexander several a lot of people here better remember that they weren't good enough at their job to be reserved. And this didn't go down too well, the Jimmy Ritchie had been flying on bombing raids over Germany, this sort of thing. And he and Bob Cooper also wanted to they wanted to start a thought of what would nowadays be called a commune. They wanted to move entire it out to the Cotswolds somewhere. I think there must have heard of the famous Cotswold community which still exists actually. And there were many such Protea communes, before the war of people with various kinds of tendencies or beliefs. I mean, they might, they are the origin I think of the the Tory myth of the sandal wearing liberal sandal wearing vegetarian liberal, though is sort of a conservative party conferences every year without fail.

He wanted us all to give it all up and start this this collective that the unit would buy a huge house, old manor house or something of that sort. And we will all live. And all socialist principles weren't a socialist is all that. And we told him where he got off on that one. But that was the same period when grusin surfaced, again, from the States, God is here as they used to, came back about 47. I remember, Gerson was sent, sent to give us a pep talk. And we're supposed to listen, wrapped too rapidly to this, this great man of whom we heard so much. And he came and taught us all of a strip. He said, you're suffering from the carpet slipper mentality that is quite sickening. I come back to England, I find you having children and wives and homes buying houses. They said the documentary movement will come to pieces. If you don't snap out of it. The carpet slipper mentality is the death of creative film. And I said, Well, you've got a wife. And he said that has never stopped me making films. And he made us all very angry. Actually. I had something to do with Chris later when I was with the British transport. And I personally was not turned on by him. I mean, I can see his he had enormous force. And he brought people together, but I didn't like him. I know I i think we jars on each other somehow. I can come to that in a minute over this film The South Wales film.

Michael Legard  17:41  
Yes, well, of course, he came to cram seminars about that time to me, he was the producer in charge. And he was like a some people. They thought exactly the same as you did. I found them as a junior editor. I found him an enormous help. Because he helped me with a particular film. When he was actually directly involved in a production, he could be very stimulating and very encouraging.

John Hargreaves  18:11  
Well, I can see that. Yes, we didn't really have to read his writing.

Michael Legard  18:14  
And it was over. There was one particular film that we that we made, were the director shot an enormous amount of stuff. And Grierson wasn't happy about the work and he got rid of the director and all his material was handed over to me for editing. And I did a rough cut. And he was gristmills over the moon. He said, My God, he said, I shouldn't have sacked this guy, this stuff does come together very well. And I thought, Oh, this is all my own work. But of course, in fact, the material was there. But anyway, just the next few weeks, we work very closely. And on the strength of that he gave me a job at group three. So I will always break Grissom because that was one individual but I mean, you're talking about a much broader aspect.

John Hargreaves  18:58  
He brought in the the Archangel Gabriel sorry, had descended to earth again or something of the sort. Later on when I was working on the film with Jimmy Ritchie in Wales, Edgar was worried about artisans never explained silly as wave as waves. Jimmy Ritchie and I ever tried to make one film something quite different. Grayson was brought in, and he saw the rough cut. And the factor that we hadn't really been told was that really, they wanted to ruin the film that would help to vivify the wealth docks for our film was about changes in transport pattern in South Wales and their social effects. And Grierson said, you haven't given me any information. I want to know the height of those cranes. How many tonnes each them will lift? What's the draft the ships that will come in to these harbours, and how do they vary? What are the characteristic loads and so forth? because he'd been told about the dock And I can see vaguely what he's driving at. And I thought, of course, also what he was driving at, was then getting Stuart leg or somebody like that, to use all these sorts of as it were related data to produce impressive comments in that style. And I'll tell you about the commentary to the shell film on international airlines later on, and what Stewart could do with words on that. So I didn't get along very well, Gerson on that occasion, but the cooperative went on. And it was marvellous training because they had two principal ongoing as we say, assignments, one was mining review, which started data

Michael Legard  20:45  
node two correction down, he started a crown filming. Yeah, because I was involved in the first six. And I was in the cutting room was, I think I needed one myself and and just just Justin Jackson, Patrick's and sister edited the rest of them. And we had a number of people on Mad Max Anderson, directing some and Graham Wallace and various others. I

John Hargreaves  21:07  
think what i was i was implied

Unknown Speaker  21:08  
in the way,

John Hargreaves  21:10  
you're not incorrect, it didn't begin at the cobalt Film Unit. Anyway, mining review, had to produce a real amount with four stories in it, and usually have about the same length. And so it meant marvellous opportunities for practice. The other comparable thing was the contract to cover from the beginning to its final commissioning the construction of the big strip mill for the steel company of Wales at margam port orbit. So that every week it was at least one crew going off on one of these things, usually two or three. And the principle that was adopted as a general guide was that an experienced camera man could have an inexperienced director and vice versa. So sometimes Ron Baker who was an assistant I think at that time would be the lighting camera man job with a yet Jr.

Michael Legard  22:09  
Wonderful training him

John Hargreaves  22:11  
and somebody like Bo jack chambers, or somebody will be directing some more experience because of trust this guy said. And this allowed one to get enormous experience of also the non filmic things that matter like how you actually persuade people that you should be allowed into the nogo area and the docks, how you get up to the top of a crane, how ask nice old ladies to put the camera up in their best bedrooms get a better viewpoint, and the whole organisation of things. I was like that. I like doing my own organisation actually.

Michael Legard  22:48  
And the fact that you were working fast too, because you had to answer the phone. That's very good discipline.

John Hargreaves  22:52  
But it's one of the significant things that I always remember about data and Alexander is that he had extremely strict views on that which will cut all that which will not cut. And he, I think he certainly got me terrified for some years, that while our shot would not cut, it took me until 1954 I think really to really feel that I knew what I was doing with points of view lenses and camera movements and I was very scared of camera movements to begin with. one forgets that one began with this case film companies have a poor they began the Newman sinckler klocwork cameras on wooden Vinson tripods that were very heavy that things like panning movements and so on. They want to have these hydraulic, logical and tripods fluid tripods, because the great problem in the film industry earlier has been the smoothness of tasks. So it was rather difficult to do with whip pans and zip bands to begin with. Unless you had friction head tripod, which was always frowned upon. And the whole grammar of film was over emphasised. I think we're still getting questions like, if he doesn't come in left, how will we know that it is him? and so forth. And I think audiences were probably more attuned to the images then than we realised we were actually using the worries about the 1920s. Really there's worries that people like Chaplin had

Michael Legard  24:36  
but a lot of a lot of royal quite distinguished directors never actually mastered them. infratech Flaherty, I would have thought would probably never and let's suppose he knew ever really got it right. Did he the grandmother of maybe he did by the time he made Lewis yonder story, but there are certain people who are great shooters, weren't they? They weren't actually directors in that sense. They were people who are getting chirality,

John Hargreaves  24:57  
several of john Armstrong was always described Does john Armstrong, Skype? Everybody has a great shootout? Oh, really?

Unknown Speaker  25:04  
I didn't know that. Yeah.

John Hargreaves  25:06  
I mean, john Armstrong, who went to shell not too long was it worldwide?

Michael Legard  25:11  
That I know the one you mean? Yes. What show did all those did those marvellous films like a coupe does alpins on? Yeah.

John Hargreaves  25:18  
I mean, the real is instinctive. For grammar, the grammar thing wasn't as difficult as it sounds, is the concept of the Golden line, I think is once you realise that the golden line, the golden mayhem can exist between the camera and an object just as much as the can between one person and another person. And that the golden line is not necessarily horizontal. But it can tilt, you know, so reverse of if I'm looking down at an object on the bench, reverse of me looking must be looking at this preferably the same as all the sides. That's all is really to it. But it was obvious that sometimes someone who's wearing a white chef's hat would be recognised as a chef, if there's only one chef in the story, or in the sequence, whether he came in the right way or not,

Michael Legard  26:08  
didn't really matter. But

John Hargreaves  26:10  
Alexander was very pedantic about this. And he used to be very severe with people, but always as a dreaded news and you bring up about the Russia, so I'm sorry, but it will cut. why it wouldn't cut was not always easy to explain, you know, orally, verbally on the phone. Well, I got over that in the end, and I was eventually asked to make a film a scientific film, by a sub company of data called nucleus run by jack chambers. JACK jam has actually written the script of this with a vague precise description of the exact lens to be used in terms of degrees of angle subtended. None of the how many inches or millimetres was the 35 degree lens and the 50 degree lens and so forth. It was a lovely script and point of fact, because when it came to the actuality, it had to be able to. But I was terribly lucky because the camera man on this film, which was about tracing cross infection in in maternity wards, or in hospitals, generally, particularly on maternity, both council shecky was the camera man, who is one of the emotions as far as I'm concerned, particularly through his utter effortlessness in doing almost everything and his apparent abilities like things with almost no lights. But the first shot I asked him to do and remember, there were no zoom lenses at this time I was attracting a large was from holding the whole of the ward to a close up of a small pimple on the arms of a newborn baby. All in one shot, and he just said, Okay, okay. I'll be five minutes. It was a beautiful shot. I didn't know how difficult I had no idea how difficult it was. If it came up here to head to text, the second one was just just insurance. So I made this film, and indeed edited it as far as I can remember. And I think that possibly Margo fleischner was my assistant. Margo was coming from services and girls high school, to data. And I'm pretty sure she was my assistant as well, several things. They're not an assistant director. And she had much more talent that she would allow herself to recognise, I think. I think it's a petition not editing now.

Michael Legard  28:44  
Yes. Well, I've said that to her once or twice in recent years, because she turns up at our btfo Union. Policy tomorrow,

John Hargreaves  28:53  
yes, yes. Well, she told me on the phone that she was coming over. So I directed this film, and But otherwise, things seem to be getting a bit poor, the prospects for data and indeed the industry, it went a bit of a slump at this point. We were now in 1949 49. It seems so and I had a friend who was the political, the diplomatic correspondent of Associated Press, which was American and equivalent of writers, one of the writers and AP with the two big agencies. And he said, Well, why don't you get it all up and coming done? work with us. And I always had another ambition to be a political journalist. and observe your statement or something that sort of later listener I would have liked. And so experimentally, I went and worked there at night, for a week. But I soon found that what you're actually doing was simply re editing the cables. You get coming in from all over the world and send them out to sub editors or newspapers to re edit them again, and it seems a bit pointless, they said You know, a urine Associated Press and you can go anywhere in journalism. But that was that was too much for me and I decided not to take up this offer. My friend was very cross and in fact, we've been somewhat displeased.

At this point it grandstay offered me a job. As far as I can recall, I was the first staff director at the newly formed British transport. Have you

Michael Legard  30:26  
had you known Edgar Tolbert? I mean, presumably, you've met him once only vaguely,

John Hargreaves  30:30  
but I sort of met him at meetings and things. During all this period, we all started a thing called British documentary, we still believe the documentary was served speaker of vocation, and the movement and things of this sort, which I suppose it had been. And Michael orunmila and Humphrey Jennings, the three most active people used to meet in film centres, Top Ramen, when they were in silver square, it's interesting. And we were trying to sell this big reveal defy the idea of I can only say, a movement. I don't think we really knew what it was all about. I don't think we knew what we meant. But we've had this gut feeling that there was somehow a kind of sort of comradeship between people in low basic and realist and data and rotors and all the rest of it that we had some common names that were of some value to ourselves and to and to the world at large.

Michael Legard  31:27  
Because it was a slight decline a period of decline just then wasn't it in documentary films, because a COI cron filming it we're having difficulty

Unknown Speaker  31:37  
with just

Michael Legard  31:38  
folding that they were still going but they are doing well past that was the period

John Hargreaves  31:42  
when john Taylor I think have just gone. He was that folded up.

Michael Legard  31:47  
JOHN had left Well, he was all right until Grissom came onto the scene and started moving the goalposts a bit and then they had this round, and they have this

John Hargreaves  31:54  
robot job to foreclose or beat several centres of activity. And Grossman said there must be run by one man. Data said I'm not that man. So he

Michael Legard  32:03  
left and he was he was replaced by his brother in law, I suppose. Donald Donald here. Yeah, that's right. Yes. And, and he stayed for a couple of years. But there was a decline, I suppose budgets are getting tighter. Which was a

John Hargreaves  32:21  
good stereotype period. And in a way, it was a pity that that phrase or documentary movement ever took holes early on, I think, because it then slightly veiled from us because we were all rather young and inexperienced in the ways of business, the fact that actually, as Mrs. Thatcher would point out, in the end, there must be a source of source of funds for everything. And everything has got to breakeven, somewhere, somehow. And we rather too idealistic about it, when we'd all been in the Army or the Navy, or call that into, like, in engineering and other jobs. The common wheel had been the source of all the funds we never asked was enough money for a new microscope or new machine gun. I mean, either was a new machine gun or wasn't, and you did what you could. And so there was this sort of vague feeling. But actually, if you look back, that wasn't as much idealism as all that if the was among the makers of housing problems, and industrial Britain and so on, I think it was a naive idealism, funded by quite a lot of private income on the parts of many of the early participants in the 30s. And by an extremely accept successful PR job by glisten and this is what prism really was good at, was getting funds, getting the Empire marketing boards, and then the GPO Film Unit to stop happening. creating these sort of loci and building mean people like Steven talents, and so forth, sort of like general barrier to those that were allies in the fields of journalism and politics. It wasn't part of the entertainment business. Okay. And so everybody was rather impressed with the documentary movement by the time the 39. war began, I think, justice, they were impressed with the the poet's or the or the spender generation. And, and things of this sort just, they're impressed with certain kinds of architecture. It seemed part of the modern movement. And then it started become assimilated. And the assimilation began, if you like, with the creation of the cobalt and transport

Michael Legard  34:39  
units elbowed filmin It started in about 4700, I think or 40, something

John Hargreaves  34:43  
like 48 and I, this is why I find the book by Elizabeth Sussex, which you may know, yes, the rise and fall documentary. I think it's got the wrong title on it. written from the wrong point of view, quite apart from the fact that all reminiscences like this one today are fallible. And there are several states

Michael Legard  35:07  
that I find severe, aren't they? Yeah,

John Hargreaves  35:09  
yeah. And so on statements of fact, they are not. She, she claims that her these recordings are historical data. And no historian would say that they are two other than round out to confirm and add to atmosphere and impressions. There are several things in the reported speech of rofa and leggenda, ultim points of fact, which I think I can controvert. So it's not as historical as all that. But she starts from the point of view of wanting a dramatic structure of the rise and fall. The processes of history themselves are less interesting than that. I think. What has happened is those arise, and acceptance and incorporation of documentary types of moving that movie making. But that's not exciting. It's not a good title, the rise and acceptance of documentary, some of the books. But consequently, she believes that by the time we're talking about 1948, the documentary movement was almost dead. And I would say that, in fact, in the period of 15 years after that, there were really extremely significant developments in the use of film in inflammation,

Unknown Speaker  36:24  
and an industry

John Hargreaves  36:25  
quite apart from what's happening and television, which represented a branching out rather than a decline. Absolutely, yeah. And that period oughtn't to be neglected. And that's really what I would like to talk about. I'm getting so hung up. Boring, you're with me. Now, remember,

Unknown Speaker  36:45  
this is all

Unknown Speaker  36:48  
fall, it is all very important.

John Hargreaves  36:50  
I'm streaming back. I mean, I've had to think about it. And you see, I've typed out some

Michael Legard  36:54  
notes. No, it just changed it rose, and then it changed its spots in the documentary. I mean, it was going on and on as you no doubt we'll be talking about later. Well, one of the new service of industry I mean, this is what Edgar was always championing wasn't.

John Hargreaves  37:11  
That's right. And in the end, no matter what once politics was, that it was things like railways or oil companies, or nuclear power, if you like, these are the things which are actually making everything else possible and paying out the money in should not be ignored. I mean, the fact that you might think it's terrible for a multinational to be so domineering wouldn't alter the fact that amazing things are being done in and by and for some of those companies in terms of human development, human achievement. Yeah. I want to talk about that about shell in a minute. Well, at this point, you say things sort of branched out one of the branches out was the creation of the film units of two major industries of coal, and of transport. Transport, I think was more interesting socially, because it incorporated docks, buses, lorries, railways.

Michael Legard  38:05  
It is British transport

John Hargreaves  38:06  
commissioners as the British transport commission. And those of us who had voted for the Labour government felt that this was the fruition of our ambitions in a way, and to be a transport filmmaker. For me, it was fine. At least for several years, I was prepared to call myself a transport man whose job was making films. Just a filmmaker who was good enough to lend his abilities to transport

Michael Legard  38:30  
were you only were you on the staff there? Because I was,

John Hargreaves  38:33  
I think I'm, I'm certain that I'm right that I was the first star film director.

Michael Legard  38:40  
Regular star established star order. Yes.

John Hargreaves  38:42  
And Ron Craig and had been appointed

Michael Legard  38:45  
as he was the founding member, wasn't he? Yes. And

John Hargreaves  38:49  
Edgar, of course, and then various other people recruited around the same time. Jimmy Ritchie,

Michael Legard  38:55  
in Ferguson,

John Hargreaves  38:56  
I think, in Ferguson. Yes. He was already the as production manager, Colonel Ferguson. And the first films that were made. As I recall, there may have been some sort of little bit so the Sydney Gazette because David Watkins has been important from London Transport. And before I forget, David Walker, and of course in our celebrated, caravan, highly paid cameraman. He came in with his 16 year old camera from London Transport. He only got the job according to him because his father was a director of one of the railways.

Michael Legard  39:33  
Right? Yes. And I thought he was Southern southern region or something. It might have been together with basil, Basil Sangster and Bobby Arlen, yes, who was his.

John Hargreaves  39:45  
His father was a director or some highly paid anyway, and David Walker was always regarded to begin with as a rather sort of second class 16 mil chap, because 16 mil has been what he'd been told to work with

Michael Legard  39:59  
nano sub Standard film standard was a company called substandard film finished.

John Hargreaves  40:05  
Anyway, and what they did, David worked in worked on a number of his films and of course, we were working in 16. When once we went into colour British transport, this is leaping ahead a bit. But it was john Taylor, who said to Edgar, this chap is brilliant. And it reverses toffee nosed about David Walker's employee, I also think Finally, David persuaded him to let him have 1000 features 35 millimetre film, and then assistant at a week, and you must have seen the test roll a tee shot.

Michael Legard  40:37  
Yeah, I had to look, I looked after it for quite a long time after he left because David used to ring me up and say, Could I borrow the cutting copy? And I knew that there was some lovely stuff. Yeah. And he used it. That's how he got marbles.

John Hargreaves  40:49  
No, I suppose a common place. But it

Michael Legard  40:51  
was called image to Gar. And it was about Paddington Station, sort of

Unknown Speaker  40:57  
fully Cutler's have been It was never

Michael Legard  40:59  
It was never completed. It was he used them in Jq model. And it was just a continually,

John Hargreaves  41:07  
I'd love to see that I only saw the rushes

Michael Legard  41:09  
that the Guardian copy is with Barry Carr, who runs the British strong oils archive, if you ever want to see it.

John Hargreaves  41:16  
Anyway, it was john Taylor, who's who's spotted this difficult trap actually had real talent. And Edgar was very reluctant to believe it. And finally, I don't know how David got his sort of real first real break.

Michael Legard  41:29  
Well did john Taylor allowed him to shoot the Blackpool film in a cold holiday? which route Sheldon cut? Oh, yes, that was David's first. I think that was his first credit as a cameraman. Oh, good. Good, which is a tremendous success, of course.

John Hargreaves  41:47  
Well, so the first films, there were two films, one was being made outside a pathway by Peter Bradford. And this was about an engine driver and his farm and meat. And I was to make a film which was working title was speed up. But in the end, it was called work in progress. And john Shannon was the assistant producer there I should have said and work in progress was a film with five separate sections. All linked together, we had a huge relief map of the whole of the British Isles made by Philips. And the strange who did these things. It was about 20 feet long. And so we linked one section to another by going from the Woodhead tunnel. This was one of the sequences that would had tunnels just being closed by British Rail but this was the new word had damaged replace the old one that was quite frightening. We nearly got killed and they owe a couple 1000 tonnes of rubble on the train ran away and came back again smash themselves against the wall. Another really interesting bit to me was the first sequence on marine radar ever used in a public film, the word military films of course, but this was crossing the channel in the maid of Orleans with Captain Larkins. We had a week to shoot this sequence, which in the end was vice president about six, seven minutes long. And the first four days of the week, it was brilliant sunshine fortunately, on the last day, or the mist arrived in time for the fog, without without the fog, the radar sequence would have been purely in the exposition, sort of educational sequence. And we then had to film this very early radar, I'm extremely slow film, but Ron Craig can solve the problem very nicely by relying on the initial really, he preferred to film. He left a tiny little bit of light in the dark room in which the radar screen is kept. Just to overcome the initial inertia, the emotion to get an exposure on this very dim radar screen. And I was was rather proud of having filmed the first marine radar and every time I go across the channel now I love affectionately two or three radar scanners. They're on all the ship. Yeah. And there was another sequence on Lori's time glory service between Argyllshire and Glasgow, another one radio control shunting. I think that was it

Michael Legard  44:20  
made your control shunting up at March? Yes,

John Hargreaves  44:24  
Cambridge. There was a time when Jim Garrett who was the assistant director had about 150 pounds in rolled up money. And on the little old fashioned train from Cambridge station to march where there's one very old fashioned loo it fell out of his pocket in a row. And fortunately, it didn't disappear down the hall. I think it was Jim go. It was a jolly good unit to work for. That

Michael Legard  44:58  
was a 1951 You have work in progress. Yes. Work in progress. Number one, I think they made another one.

John Hargreaves  45:04  
Don't think so perhaps

Unknown Speaker  45:05  
perhaps I'm thinking of something else.

John Hargreaves  45:07  
Well, I've then got put on something quite different which was permanently way maintenance part two, you lay in line and part three switches and crossings. Part One had been made by chapters never forgotten. It was a feature film assistant director. It was about

Michael Legard  45:25  
public and Fairbairn. Was it something?

John Hargreaves  45:28  
No, no, no, it was a tall chap. He was an editor at all he is. He came from features but I think he'd been an assistant director and he did wonderful shot.

John Hargreaves  0:08  
So I agree. Well, we were talking about after work in progress, I got put on to instructional films on how to maintain the railway track. Spent a lot of time at a place called craft spa and a very good hotel, so just south of Darlington, in Yorkshire. In the depths of winter, it was very, very cold. When the weather was bad, we were taught finishing by the bob Taylor, the Ganga and his three men because they always took their ferrets with them. They lived on the rabbits that they caught when, when they couldn't do their work or before or after their work. We got extremely cold. The hotel This was in the rationing time a hotel was a wonderful hotel. It had enormous stocks of the few things that were not rationed, game and other words. And so we had a princely way every evening at the compulsory maximum price and I think it was five shillings for a meal was the national compulsory maximum price if you remember was

John Legard  1:12  
meals but we had lunch with fashion we had dinner was having

John Hargreaves  1:15  
Partridge and pheasant and grass and Heaven knows what a real old style country hotel so we at will. And we're camera about this time was a chap called Michael Cara Briggs.

Michael Legard  1:27  
Oh, yes. who later became a television producer. He wasn't he wasn't? Well,

John Hargreaves  1:31  
yes, he had a wonderful house in St. John's world, which I think he'll be in his parents house. The thing about making instructional films Is that you, it really does test your ability to use the camera and the editing process together to explain and demonstrate, rather than to give an impression. There's trouble with the part one film was some wonderfully eloquent shots of how to lay new tracks have been made by this director whose name I don't remember. But the whole thing did not succeed in explaining to the trainees how to do it, it was just an impressionistic. So the trouble with instructional films, though, especially if one had a producer, like Donald Alexander, who was very pedantic about the editability of things, if you are not careful, in a simpler sort of film with a narrative film, if you're not careful, you would shoot a whole instructional sequence on how to go through a door, established a man approaching him approaching, establish the door, establish that he is going towards the door, establish that the door has a handle or establish how his hand goes on make sure you establish which way the handle turns, what then happens to the door and all this it opens in a certain direction. And then how to go through the door. And it took me a bit of a while to get over just the soldier sheer habit of shooting detail that the relevant was unimportant. I just took me very long, but there was a sort of automatic habit of saying I got this got that this one or that one? And I had to break free of it and start to become more impressionistic, I suppose.

Michael Legard  3:21  
But I mean, instructional Of course, we're I mean, for example, there was a five real film we made about level crossing gates. I don't do didn't direct that did you know, that was 3525 mil five rules of operating of liberal crossing gates. And that sounds a bit like that sort of going through the door syndrome,

John Hargreaves  3:38  
when those threats to safety anyway, sorry, at this time. Ad grants did also resolve to make what we used to think of as intelligent travelogues. In other words, the idea was to encourage the notion of enjoying the the beauties and the what we now call heritage of Britain, because that would encourage people to

Michael Legard  3:59  
travel, I think a good expression was creating an appetite for travel.

John Hargreaves  4:03  
That's right. Well, that's exactly Yes. And in percent of people will go by car, but the other 100 minus n would go by. And that was the, for the

Michael Legard  4:16  
for the other 45% didn't have the other

John Hargreaves  4:19  
as it were Maxim that we had them nobody ever put it in a pithy way, was that we were not making what used to be called Fitzpatrick's the ones, which ended with the legendary phrase and so we leave these happy people. So that I was asked to make a film about the Cotswold area or the heart of England and became called

Michael Legard  4:42  
either you're part of this or territory of that,

John Hargreaves  4:45  
which is now is

Alan Lawson  4:47  
that's why we're living there. Now, just like

John Hargreaves  4:50  
before when I said this film ought to be about the Cotswolds, not really about the bus services and the trains. I mean, Edgar, I absolutely agree. And I then thought that the film ought to be based in the seasons of because it inter alia that will persuade people that the window is also a time to travel. And also the Cotswolds looked particularly beautiful in certain kinds of winter day. And I also had read the very popular books over writer called john Moore wrote a book called branch of village, which was actually about Breeden where he lived. And a book called portrait of elenberg, which he wrote, which is actually about Tewksbury. And I decided to get to know this man. So I went to breed and very clearly, he always had a drink a local pub, and somebody pointed out to me, and we became good friends. Actually,

Michael Legard  5:43  
I'm interested to hear this because I got to know him very well, later on because I worked on his films. He

John Hargreaves  5:47  
then became Edgar's friend, he captured him as his way a little way he had, and also he was they were both members of the several

Michael Legard  5:57  
is perhaps he was already several was he, john mo about that? Yeah.

John Hargreaves  6:00  
He was a lovely man, john Moore, I thought I mean, he was of a kind of, he's a bit responsible for the countryside myth, which does a bit of harm. Now. I think. It does a bit of harm, and people will arrive in their city suits their Range Rovers, and then put on their country where nobody who lives were weather clothes. Some rich guppies were and they think it's Saturday. But no, he, he was a conservationist, before the word was used really. He was alive, lovely, lovely man. He was he who gave me the introduction to the man in the middle and BBC middle of the service, who suggested I write the article, the write the broadcast about looking at the Cotswolds, through filmmakers I, that made Edgar enciso annoyed that I had not asked his permission. But that, at that time, I had left British transport for six months and left the permanent staff and I had been to Iraq to make a film in Iraq or film centre, which is why I was not a staff member anymore. I was a freelance and doing other bits and pieces as well. That's, I suppose perhaps the time to this is the time to mention that I was asked by author. If I would like to go to Iraq to make a film about building the worlds that time the world's longest pipeline, from the oil wells cook all the way to the Mediterranean. And Edgar, to do him credit, said Elton has asked me if you'd be interested, but you wouldn't want to think like that, would you? And I said, Well, I'm not so sure. So in the end, I did go and do it. And then went back to British transport for a year or two as as a freelance. And that was when some of the, I think, more interesting films, which deserved with me, but

Michael Legard  7:55  
did you do? You did the heart of England before you went to,

John Hargreaves  8:00  
but this is what my memory has failed me on. And I haven't been up into the roof space to find the phone. I

Michael Legard  8:05  
have an idea it might have been. I think you might have made it after you went to

John Hargreaves  8:09  
I think it was?

Michael Legard  8:10  
Yes. Because something john chairman said the other day, he said that you made the third river before he went up to Baghdad. And of course, john went out to Baghdad, I think in 1952. Probably and

John Hargreaves  8:23  
he went through records. 5253.

Michael Legard  8:26  
Yes. And you see, I don't think that some part of England was until his coronation. Yeah, yeah. That is, in a way, it's not all important. All part of it. You know,

John Hargreaves  8:39  
the thing I have forgotten is that after I'd gone to Iraq, john Sherman took over the finishing of, I made a Sydney Gazette for London Transport, which was the thing that the unit did on two principal themes. One was taste taking your tube train to pieces, which they do every 100,000 miles and take every bit of it, take the body off the wheels and the motors after the motor and clean them all up and repair them with him and put them together again.

Unknown Speaker  9:07  
I think I did that. And

John Hargreaves  9:08  
the other piece was the place where they made the canteen with marvellous sausage machine. And a little piece on the skid patch. Yes. And I said that I wanted improvised music, cool jazz. And we chose a pianist called diktats. JOHN Sherman and possibly yourself supervisors recording and he he did two takes I think for each piece. And it was lovely music I wish I had the track on Yes.

Michael Legard  9:45  
Yes, that was a very successful little film.

John Hargreaves  9:48  
I was very lucky. I think I've never made a film with pre recorded music. Unless it's pre recorded music I wanted specifically in No data, I was editing a film with Mary or Mary Beals she was in on displaced persons. And we had not much money for music. But I actually sang the first verse of the first song in the ventile hiser. Good enough, you know the cycle. In the minor key for the loneliness of this chap in the sexes were segregated as displaced persons and they were two different camps. And this slob or whatever he was singing this all lonely and then as Schubert himself does it in the last verse, it changes into the major key. And for that we just use the piano in the path the studio has to bring in the same theme in updates, sort of piano behind there, because we were strapped for money for music and since then, I've lost him I ever made I had to do the music myself because my performances on a synthesiser, how

Michael Legard  10:57  
did you? Yeah, so you always used so

John Hargreaves  11:00  
improvised music struck me as the best way of dealing with this just because it seemed right for such a thing. And also because it was cheap. Whereas when we use Edward Williams, who wrote for another film I did on country houses incredibly naive juvenile film, but he wrote some very beautiful music for a wind.

Unknown Speaker  11:21  
We Yes, yes.

John Hargreaves  11:23  
Very nice indeed. He also wrote some lovely music for a film that rod Beck's Baxter made on canals,

Michael Legard  11:31  
called Zagat about

John Hargreaves  11:33  
the beds where he used Five, four times to simulate the pop up of the diesel engine. Most people are unfamiliar with five, four time except in the second movers of Tchaikovsky's sixth Symphony, where it's familiar, but otherwise, it's usually people think threes, fours and sixes are Yes, yes. And this bah bah, bah, bah, bah, bah, bah, bah, bah, bah, bah. Very well for the boats. Yes. So shall we? Should I have finished British transport? Including those years and then we can go back to Iraq, which led on to my next job going global? Yes. So what should we finish? Is British transport before the sandwich?

Unknown Speaker  12:16  
Yeah. All right.

John Hargreaves  12:18  
Well, the other things in British transport were not so happy really. The heart of England I think I enjoyed making in four seasons very much. That once again, I look I looked at it again the other day, I got a tape of it. And there's the camera is not lively at all. I mean, not in the way I don't know at all. It was rather timid stetic really relying more on editing of the relation of shot shot change to verbal emphasis and that sort of thing. to kind of give it any sort of dynamic and to the music and if I remember the music was Elizabeth legends when I'm not certain of that. It was Yes. Yeah. So the first time I met her No, it wasn't she did the music for the rock Selma 952. The third river

Michael Legard  13:07  
I think she I think it was probably the first film that she'd done for British transport.

John Hargreaves  13:13  
She did as well for film centre. There was a suggestion I knew knew of her work that I hadn't heard it was it was I think, either male masters or cam Cameron who suggested her I became very friendly with Liz I thought she

Michael Legard  13:25  
was an interesting person wasn't she? I liked her very much Um, so

John Hargreaves  13:28  
did I. But the other travel films I got involved in but less happy was a film in East Anglia.

Michael Legard  13:37  
Oh, yes or no. Is this is that for you?

John Hargreaves  13:42  
Or that? I think the trouble with Edgar in my view was that he did not let one be the director of ones for my mother, the director of the shooting.

Michael Legard  13:51  
Yeah, that's right. That's why I said I directed I edited a few Oh for somebody well, because in

John Hargreaves  13:55  
fact you are not afraid you registered for Paula Sue who there is a nice man i thought was I found him an absolute disaster. He went

Michael Legard  14:06  
through a very interesting stage. I rather liked his use of words great word spinner. Not everybody liked him,

John Hargreaves  14:11  
I guess. I mean, I suppose I suppose something had to be done. The fact of the film was, was bedevilled by whether it was not that the shooting never finished. And so something had to be made. I never forgave him though for the poem about the boats go like old violins I. Robert graves man, I think purchase should be economical and spares will be nothing but meaning.

Michael Legard  14:38  
United is a very successful film, very successful. When it went round on the Odeon circuit, or whatever it was, there's a supporting film to one of the features well the other day and it got reviewed and films and filming by Ken gay, who has said I just called East Anglia and holiday a very simple to Well I

John Hargreaves  15:00  
suppose he did something and it was quite attractive The

Michael Legard  15:03  
music was composed by a nice lady called Dorian car with them.

John Hargreaves  15:06  
That's right.

Michael Legard  15:07  
Who a she she had entirely strings.

John Hargreaves  15:10  
Yes, she had a bit of a sixth esteem at that period disappeared from sight.

Michael Legard  15:15  
Well she didn't she married below when I have an issue. Then at the end, she just appeared

John Hargreaves  15:21  
with lighting switched off. Remind me to talk to you about such relationships.

Unknown Speaker  15:27  
Well, I'm sure

Michael Legard  15:29  
you didn't like it because I enjoyed I enjoyed working on it. I thought it was great fun. Oh, well, of course, I always caught on rather well with Paul, you know, we have

John Hargreaves  15:38  
clearly worked so well. But I

Michael Legard  15:41  
remember you his expression on your face when you saw it. Because you've been doing something else while we were finishing it off.

John Hargreaves  15:50  
I think there's a very dangerous trend in the use of words. And it's summed up by the way in which every school so used to be taught maize fields pine cargoes. The one that begins Queen Kareem of Nineveh from distant, growing home to haven in sunny Palestine. And so it goes on. Now, Robert graves in his essay the common ask Fidel really takes this film apart, he deconstructs it as they say. And he points out first of all, opia is landlocked. It is about 1000 miles from the nearest sea. Next Queen Kareem this were late Roman invention. So that was the Roman invention of Roman ladies. And they drew about 15 feet of water, and that there's no evidence that the Euphrates has any time being such as to support the Queen Kareem which either would have to have been transported 600 miles overland, or gone round the Cape of Good Hope. And up the Red Sea, up the Persian Gulf 400 miles up to Nineveh, the new evidence of that could have happened. And so on every verse of it, in other words, these are emotive words put together to give a warm jumbled

Unknown Speaker  17:13  
mush

Michael Legard  17:14  
I thought it was marvellous location atmosphere of those days.

John Hargreaves  17:21  
The last verse, if you remember is about dirty bridges. The salt cake smokestack, butting up the channel in the Mad March days of cargo something other than cheap tin trays. Now, in those days, graves was right to point out that Jim tin trays would have been made in the very place it was going to, he might have been carrying coals to Newcastle just these days, of course, they come from clearly

Michael Legard  17:45  
hadn't done his research. Right. But he

John Hargreaves  17:48  
was putting emotive words together. And that tradition was carried on by Stuart leg. In the worst cases, in the best cases, it was incomparable in the worst cases it was meretricious, wasn't as it was. So his work was meretricious. I mean, he was a very nice, very nice man. But you see, I think in the end, and Steve's judgement, I think was fallible in this respect. He he didn't realise what stereotypes he himself was a victim of. And this came out in the film, which is now called Every valley. Oh, right. Yes, which I wrote and directed. And Jimmy Ritchie shot with me. And we're very much colleagues on this. Interesting enough, I had a Welsh wife and he had a worldwide same region. And it was agree that that film would be about the way in which life was changing in South Wales, because of the transport, among other things of the transport systems, that in the past that had been the coal and the steel, operating on the heads and along vertical values running not roughly north south. And all communication was was north south and to the main road and rail at the Cardiff Newport area. And so the valleys were closed communities, and people would walk over to the next Valley and that sort of there was very little employment for women. The improvement in buses and roads made it possible to have lateral communication, and enable the diversification of industry as the coal industry in them is running down. enabled new industries like trading estates and tree forest and other places have quite different times to be brought in. The mining tradition has encouraged education, and the great tradition of education and of music created a great sense of social solidarity. But this was all being spread both to women and to new opportunities in work and it was agreed that this was Got the film should be about. And it wasn't LED on to me that the docks, anything more than incidental part of it turns out in the end, the whole film was intended to be financed from the docks board, or whatever it was called at the time. Anyway, Jimmy and I made this film and the BBC had just started producing films in a title, which I think was called 14 minutes all those years ago, certainly the 14 millimetre was a standard documentary length, and we made a cut 14 minutes long, I can't remember who edited it. And perhaps I did it myself, I really can't remember, which a lot of people were rather pleased with. And the thing was based on a quiz I realist story, I found a ticket collector mother did though, station who was called oddly enough, Glyn Wales, he really was called that he was a county counsellor, and a local counsellor and a lay preacher in Welsh and English, and he was a full time ticket collector, quite a local figure. And his, he had descended from immigrants who came to work for crochet and the early steel mills and blast furnaces of the early 19th century probably came from England. And we base the film on him and also on a young couple living further south, but the working wife, he was just crossed on all this. And we felt that it should be this kind of, there was some possibility that it was possible occasionally to get film shown on BBC. And he was aware of this, but he wouldn't push it at all. I said, Look, let's just show. It wasn't given on someone like this. And I want to show it to eartha In fact, Earth a soil really, and took a fairly good view of it made some good suggestions. But I then went back to Iraq, to do well, partly to Iraq to do another film and

Michael Legard  22:02  
languished in it rather than for a bit.

John Hargreaves  22:04  
Well, what happened was that I thought it was a terrible mistake. It was turned into a Commonwealth film. I mean, it took every well stereotype that is, and even had that Donald Donald Donald Houston, sort of musical Welshman, he did very well. And it includes all cornea, this is totally full things like chap says at one point, I'm not sure if he says it himself, or commentation says your commentary says it often. You know, this is everyone calls him die the tickets, see, absolute nonsense. I mean, this is the thing. This is the stereotype. And the whole film was made to support the very opposite case to what we needed about it was made to support the case that despite industrialization, despite the employment of women, despite the changes in transport, and so who else was all the same dear old hymn singing sentimental people

Michael Legard  23:05  
is right and they had the hit. You had the coral sequence, of course, and john Trump, who edited it use the bits of the Messiah and he that's why I called it That's why they call it a ravalli. When it was finished, it was called Every valley.

John Hargreaves  23:16  
Well, that's right. I mean, I decided that it would be cardus not to have a Welsh choir in a film about South Wales, just because it seemed corny thing to do was to use it. And it was my only experience actually shooting a large chorus and a small orchestra to playback with the first recording with Ken Scribner and his van. Oh, really. And then we shot them to playback. Music Yeah, rolling was done in those days. Of course, I

Unknown Speaker  23:44  
realise you've done that.

John Hargreaves  23:46  
In other words, they, they made it all. Great. Last and then the closer shots. And we use that we're All we like sheep have gone astray who seemed to indicate that and that sequence was kept as I'm extending that to indicate the diversity of life nowadays, or vendor days compared with the old days of the mining industry and what's going on husband's back. We got back from Pitt. And there were there was john Armstrong the other lovely shot Jimmy did a wonderful shot of we ended at the end of the chorus. It goes sort of an dando Adagio, if you remember, the minor key and the iniquity of them as visitors or something. This is john Armstrong kissing the deputy librarian. That shot well, romantic, Shawn and it all got changed into this sentimental thing but I know a number of very sentimental, boring middle class or ageing. Most people who also thought it was lovely to be bucketed

Unknown Speaker  24:53  
they're all

Michael Legard  24:56  
lovely where it's been. It's been shown on television a couple of times. And then revival and just recently because Barre cards

John Hargreaves  25:06  
kept saying to me that show the NFT just before he died, he said, I still think that every value is the pinnacle of your career. And how did you how did you reply? Edgar, you know, I've never agreed with you about it. And I just, you know, he's very sorry about that. I mean, I felt so proud of having selected you. And then you came up with a wonderful film like that. And I said, Oh, well, that'll just show business for you, isn't it? She I think a lot of I mean, Edgar had a lot of terrific qualities. He did. He was a victim of stereotyping. I can remember much later when I was at the Royal College of Art. And he was for some reason I never divined on the governors of it for many, many years on the council. And he I got him in as an external examiner in the baby film school was there. And he found a student who didn't like the work of film heals furniture on Gordon Russell didn't like Ben Nicholson's abstractions didn't like the Bauhaus didn't like any of the received goodies of the 30s and early 40s. But Edgar was absolutely astonished at this. He, he couldn't imagine that tastes could change. I, I was I was astonished to Tim,

Michael Legard  26:35  
kind of him being.

John Hargreaves  26:36  
On the other hand, he had just leaping ahead. He had some judgement. We had a student called Lawrence Moore, the very first output, who made a film for his diploma film on Michael Rosenstein and he had good tried to get the BBC to see it, because he said, You know that that is a very distinguished documentary. I mean, this is the time when john Reed was making these sorts of films about those films about artists. Yes. And so he perceived that but he's somehow it's very odd. He. Well, I suppose it showbusiness, he had to stick to things that would sell in a certain media. That's right. Yeah. We weren't being paid to make a socially progressive or informative. nonparametric. I wanted the film to be informative, and so did Jimmy. He wanted it to give an impression. And I think this is the difference between the real doctor mentalist or documentarian to me is the person who, within whatever art or craft he can muster and seems appropriate can inform, rather than just please even please and inform.

Michael Legard  27:46  
Yeah. I think we should have never break us.

John Hargreaves  27:51  
So we were talking before the break about British transport and the film about South Wales, and also discontents about who was supposed to be doing what with and for whom, and such discontents are often at the centre of Rouse about films. I think you'd agree, john. Yes.

Michael Legard  28:11  
Indeed, yes. I think that's very true. Yes. What about now we get to talk about that film, which you directly call linkspan.

John Hargreaves  28:20  
Yes, that I was pleased to do that, because I like ships and boats. And having day made the short sequence. And the cross channel ferry some years early on the radar is on the radar. This was a chance to make a film about the train fairies, which were not only the well known trains area that used to build begin with the sleepers that left Victoria Station that I think it was 11pm and midnight, and go straight through to to Paris having been conveyed onto a ferry boat and off the other end in France. There are also other trains ferries that ran from harridge to zebra, I think.

Michael Legard  29:00  
Yes, that's right. Harris is a burger was the freight and these

John Hargreaves  29:03  
were freight ferries. And these were lovely old tubs. So we made this film about train ferries and of course the international train the one from London Victoria to the guard, you know how to take precedence. And we spent a great deal of time going back and forth between Dover and Dunkirk and between harridge and zebra that and filming ships is always fun. Filming trains is always fun. And the great thing about most filming of any kind is fun, and I suspect that when it isn't fun, one way or another it probably shows and the result. However, when the shooting of this film has been completed, and before the editing began, I was asked by film centre who a well known firm started by john Grissom and Aren't you 39 and Arthur Elton, to go back to them to work abroad. And I think we might talk about that in a moment. But before we do, I'd like to make the point that directors in British transport films after the early years when, for instance, I edited myself my own film, work in progress, directors were directors of shooting. And the producer Edgar and steel was sometimes delegated to john Sherman or Ian Ferguson, the producer, was the person who had the real voice in how the film finally shaped. And we directors younger directors, all unknowing were the precursors of what became to be called the auteur theory is the author theory in film criticism, which suggests that the director in most cases, the true author of the final work that emerges, well, British transport you hadn't much chance of being that I have explained, I think, how the South Wales film changed from being a film about social change and the role of transport there in to an impressionistic film about the somewhat stereotype view of Wales and the Welsh. Well, in the case of linkspan, it was not quite as cosmic a problem as that. But nevertheless, I found that the way the film had been edited, eventually edited, in particular, the way the commentary the soundtrack had been made, seem to me to be so. So much in the sort of kindergarten style, very often the words simply describing what could well be seen visually on the screen. But quite upset with what the French would call the banner disaster on the banner Ising. of materials, surely Didn't you

Michael Legard  31:56  
have the opportunity of in or insisting or suggesting, Julian Bolden, I had in the post production stage?

John Hargreaves  32:04  
Yes, I could. I was not invited. I was quite busy writing the new film,

Michael Legard  32:10  
you're on your next film call. I

John Hargreaves  32:12  
was on my next film for film centre, another company. But nevertheless, I was most of the time available in London. I'm not quite sure the dates. But in principle, I feel I could have been shown this and asked if I had any comments. But to the best of my recollection, I never was one

Michael Legard  32:26  
of the problems of British transport was that we tended to shoot films based on treatments rather than on an exact shifting scripts, and so on. And just nature of the work.

John Hargreaves  32:36  
documentary those days, if I can pick you up on those, I think it was one of the Liberation's of British transport that we could work from transports rather, treatments rather than so called executive scripts, which rarely corresponded to the facts on the ground at the time.

Unknown Speaker  32:52  
Fair enough.

John Hargreaves  32:53  
But nevertheless, you take it the other way around.

Michael Legard  32:57  
I'm just saying, you know, the time in view of the fact that we didn't have these detailed shooting scripts, it was therefore even more important that the director should be

John Hargreaves  33:08  
fairly detailed treatment, as I recall, but I think that probably lost it. But I mean, as an editor, surely you ought to welcome the creative possibilities

Michael Legard  33:17  
and look at it from your point of view entirely. As an editor, I was delighted, as we were talking about East Anglian holiday earlier, and I was delighted to have the opportunity of working on this material with you or eventually it is very highly

John Hargreaves  33:29  
desired outcome back to on that as a film director, I would say that anyone who wants an exact shooting script about what could only be described as a general activity or trend or something in the world, or practice, is living in a world of fairy land, it's almost never possible, unless you build as in the television series casualty, where if you build everything, you can make it go exactly as you want the studio production. Anyway,

Michael Legard  33:58  
I suppose I do know sort of detailed treatment, a lot of the stuff that we made was the treatment was on the on one side of a postcard. For example,

John Hargreaves  34:07  
of course, you should talk sometime to the microphone about Stuart McAlister.

Michael Legard  34:13  
I won't be very happy to do so. Yeah.

John Hargreaves  34:16  
I remember when

Unknown Speaker  34:17  
eventually,

John Hargreaves  34:18  
I think I'm trying to remember which the attractive young assistant lady film editors I'm talking about. I think it was Margo flesh night. Yes, it was when Stuart McAllister was given a lot of material and she has very carefully indexed it and put it together in reels related to the particular themes of the various sequences. I can't remember the life of me or what film it was. And she made a good assembly of, for example, the ducks sequences, the railway sequences, whatever it may be. And he got the toys, all the pieces that I don't want to see that sort of thing I want to jumbled up. Join it together again jumbled up. Because he was looking for serendipitous ideas and a reasonably sound

Michael Legard  35:09  
by definition, haphazard links or whatever.

John Hargreaves  35:13  
Anyway, I was asked as I said to join film centre and we moved to a different sort of plain, not higher or better, but just different because this went on with the sort of international things I got rather involved in in two senses, one in working in other countries, and to in dealing with international organisations both capitalistic financial organisations and international bodies like the UN and the United Nations agencies. I had already worked abroad in France and Belgium and Germany a little bit on British transport films. And in Iraq, Syria and Lebanon. On the film I mentioned about the pipeline in 1952, which was interpolated into my period with British transport 1952, I was asked to make this film about building a 30 inch pipeline between Kirk cook and the Mediterranean at that time, this was very long and thought to be rather adventurous, and to me, it was a great adventure. I had to go away for some three or four months, which didn't seem long compared with four and a half years abroad in the war. But nevertheless, from the family's point of view was a lot. And all I knew was that there was a promising Iraqi cameraman called Kerry Majeed, who had been recommended by a person called Alex shore whom others from Oh, right. Well, who have been filming in the middle east on the show, and that I had to make this film and I better get out there quickly because the last shipload of pipe was arriving in bars, but Basel adopts on a certain date. So off I went to Iraq, armed but armed with an Austin raise, full fee, dinner jacket, and all the rest of it because Arthur Elson said you must have dinner jacket and black tie and so forth all that for dinners at the embassies and things of this sort. In the event, I didn't unpack it from start to finish it was made of thick wool. It proved invaluable later to be a laser to my sons who wore it for their various jazz gigs they performed in and still being used by my eldest son. Anyway, so I went off and I met this camera man, Kelly Majeed, who turned out to be also a pornographic photographer of considerable distinction. And when I had to go off on my own, on the local aeroplane up the pipeline over to Syria and back, he said, You will be a lonely, you will be lonely, you will be a lonely person here 100 of my pictures take take 10 or 20 to help you. I was quite astonished at the degree of clinical closeups he had taken of his girlfriend's quite extraordinary. But he was he was a dedicated guy, he had a rich uncle who had bought him an IMO camera. And he'd already taken some pictures of the arrival of these pipes in buses. And we flew to Boston and got some

rather nice shots of the last load coming off. It was my first experience of filming things that are really rather monumental in size. When whole pile these great types which are something like 40 yards long, 30 inches, each piled on top, on a railway flat started puffing away with an American type cow catcher steam locomotive pulling them. This gave us a sense of scale and difference of place that was quite marvellous, it was incredibly hot, I remember. And the other thing is, I suddenly started to see connections that will seem very late, naive now. But for instance, we went out in a boat on the waters at the head of the Chateau, where basa is, and we found vast flocks of hundreds, if not 1000s, of flamingos taking off in squadrons at the same time. And I feel these taking off and that actually made a marvellous transition to the old constellation aircraft taking off. In a later film, in which the protagonist, the rocky Professor flew to Europe, and things of that sort that didn't seem to occur to us somehow we're making films on permanent where maintenance quite so much. Anyway, we made this film we had a crew, a promising young man called Peter Kelly, whom Arthur Elton discovered from somewhere, his first film as a camera man. And that taught me early on that cinema Buffy isn't quite the mystery that for many years, people try to pretend it was the kind of close speciality that these years of apprenticeship. This young man was very talented. He went to Canada actually immediately afterwards and never, I think he works the National Film Board to this day. We had a camera system called Kelvin pike. He was nice lab was fine, it was fine. He was named Kelvin because his father was an electrical engineer to whom Lord Kelvin was one of the great figures in history. And I think that's great. And Kerry Majeed was my assistant director, and if necessary, stand by a camera man. But he of course, was not socially well received. his advice, I don't think he was known for his porno photography activities, but he was not of the sort of top people and the oil company, of course, dealt only with the top people, the top social classes. But nevertheless, he came. And we filmed all along all over the rocky desert. We filmed in Palmyra and places like this. And eventually I did the film, with Ralph Sheldon, as my assistant, Raul Sheldon had just lost their job on the dissolution of the crown jewel music. And somebody had passed his name to me. And this started a friendship I hope I'm writing saying which began then has gone on ever since. And also taught me the value of a thorough reading of the works of SJ Perelman to any conversation. Yes, because, well, Sheldon, depends more than he knows, perhaps on the works of that celebrated author. And we edited the film and Liz larches wrote the music. And it was premiered with do ceremony in the Grosvenor House Hotel. And an Iraqi version was made. Interestingly, one of my great friends in Jerusalem, Gabrielle Jabra, whom I mentioned earlier, had after the departure of the British from Palestine had escaped to Jordan, then to Iraq, and had converted I suspect for reasons of prudence or anything else to Islam and gold himself, Jabra Ibrahim Jabra, and was teaching impoverished in a primary school somewhere in Baghdad, but I was able to locate him. And he became the translator of Arabic version of this film, the Arabic version was very important because the film was designed to reconcile the oil company to the population, right, much more than to describe its operations to the English speaking audiences in Europe. And it is clear that the oil resources have made and can make enormous money and may produce enormous benefits to Iraq, whatever is happening there at the moment. And this was the beginning of jobless rise to some distinction because he was he had a Cambridge degree in English and a master's degree from Harvard,

which he'd taken after I'd known him in Palestine. He was a poet and something of a painter. And he brought an outpost of contemporary euro American style culture to a basically, Islamic country, which is not dominated in quite the same way or some countries by fundamentalism, certainly not in the 50s. And, as john Sherman would, or perhaps has recounted, Jabra was responsible for the first sort of driving views of the de vernissage. In particular painters works, and there's a tremendous amount of rather derivative art, but it was art it was the liberation of the imagination from the very restricted Islamic forms which are studying themselves but are denied figurative work. And this, of course, actually stirred up certain resemblance. making a film in Iraq was difficult because the sponsor the oil company wanted to keep on the right side of the religious organisations. I remember being taken to see the editor of the principal religious painter, who said he saw no objection to figurative images provided they were vegetables, of trees and fruits and flowers, but not of living creatures, as he called them, animals level and people. And this was the sort of narrow tightrope that always had to exist between the modernizers and the strict religionists, just as in Jerusalem, that had always been the struggle between the cassadine and these strict Sabbath observers and the European assimilates who brought So Ryan land type culture. Anyway, that's how jobs that I've got involved in he then was involved in another film they made later in 55. Because

Michael Legard  45:11  
so I guess to the to the third river, I mean, did you was it properly used when it was made and you get proper distribution?

John Hargreaves  45:19  
Extremely widely out there, but it wasn't 35 and 16. It was showing every cinema in Iraq because really, this was so different from the specialised film with the ultra specialised distribution that we were used to in most of the documentary

John Legard  0:06  
Take two job site for us now to is Take two. And was it shown in the cinemas and this country? Is

Michael Clarke  0:15  
what the third river? Yes. Or rather No, it wasn't as far as I showed in cinemas except possibly privately. But it was shown as far as I know, in every cinema in Iraq and more than months. And indeed, there were said to be interesting reactions because although though, railways and aeroplanes and Rose not always very good, nevertheless, the reactions of just people in the north up in the Kurdish North saying, did you see the sea we have never seen the sea before, and the port and those great ships, and that caught that sort of thing, other people saying we're seeing the mountains of Kurdistan, I didn't know much at that time about the independence movements in Kurdistan. All the areas which now in nine areas, which now in 1993, in revolt against Saddam Hussein, were then marvellous mountain areas, which we we ventured on mules provided by the Iraqi army. We had a camera mule and a mule each. And I think, yes, we have a tripod mule and a camera mule, and then a mule. Each of our escort had mules. And we went right up towards the Iranian almost was the Soviet border, I believe. But it was said that people were not aware of the nature of their country, how much the Kurds really felt. And his sense of union with Iraq is in the deep south and the marsh Arabs and so on. I think there's all too much worry about whether people feel they belong to nation states, I'm against it. I want to I International, that's another story. Well, I was asked to go back in 1955, to make a different film to explain to Iraq is the nature of the oil economy. And its relationship to the world economy, the energy economy and be to their own general national economy. In other words, the oil company, I think, wanted people both to understand the importance to them, of the oil, that it was not just a piece of exploitation, or they would say not at all a piece of exploitation. They had their share, but Iraq had the major share in the profits of this wonderful asset. At the same time, they wanted them to realise that Iraqi oil was in competition not only with other oils, but with wave power, wind power, coal, demand energies, or other forms of energy, of energy. And this was partly because the populations reaction seemed to be divided into two extremes, those who said that the oil company was pure, purely exploiters, just creaming off that which was rightfully Iraq's, and the others who said that it was an almost infinite source of riches. So why there wasn't was not always the money for a new operating theatre, a new museum and you bridge a new road. So I took this as a brief simply to explain the bare elementals of the economy of selling energy in the world has other sources of energy. And we wrote a, I think, really, very banal and simple structure taking a professor of geography in a man called Justin Mel harloff, who now Indeed, I believe is the Vice Chancellor of University of Baghdad, who was then a professor,

John Legard  3:49  
that name for example, I was just thinking of the person who's going to transcribe

Michael Clarke  3:53  
you spell it just seemed a WSI o L which means the harloff KHF rather you don't spell it your transliterated just come to me being a patent and Dennis form and then the minute Anyway, you know, we took this this man travelled in Europe and saw what was happening about the competing energy sources. And then also what was happening of the benefits of oil in his country. It was pretty damn naive, actually. But at the same time, from my purely selfish point of view, it allowed me some wonderful filming opportunities. And that last I thought I knew what I was doing when joining shot was shot as it were, to the fury of audiences, because in the sort of traffic sequences in Europe, I will catch a shot going around the Colosseum in Rome to a shot going around the Plaza de la Concorde to going around Hyde Park corner without naming them and people said, But where was that shot? And I was a European before my time, obviously As a film or as a studio or other, we built a set in a disused film studio. Unbelievably, it was made not with flats, but with breezeblocks and mortar. Because there was no source of material for flats, but we could build an actual set, which was the Office of this professor. And my camera man was Billy Williams, who had been graced on camera man in British transport films whose father was a well known camera and news and several a cameraman. And I'd had this experience of working with young people. And that wasn't that old myself. And Billy was younger than me. And Peter Kelly taught me that young people could be some good and I knew Billy, so I offered him this job. And a year or so ago, he came up to me at some meeting, hadn't seen for ages and said, I just want to thank you for giving me my first break. Because having got that film he bought in our flex, or was it built on flex at that time, perhaps. And that set him off in a career which has now been very, very distinguished? Absolutely. I was really touched that because I didn't ever think of I hadn't thought of taking the credit. So did not take the credit for that. Did

John Legard  6:16  
Billy Williams come from British transport films then to you? Right, yeah. And then of course, he went on to to Jimmy Garrett, I think was he

Michael Clarke  6:25  
features general? Yeah, yes. Yes. I mean, he had to decide to make the break on British transport as I had to decide because no one's gonna employ me again after leaving twice. So we made this film and I edited it again. What

John Legard  6:40  
are you shooting in? 30? Well, obviously 3535 years from colour isn't colour.

Michael Clarke  6:45  
Yes, we haven't mentioned that. There were the I think, I think was in black and white was good. The third room was in black and white. The British transport travel films were in 16 mil Kodachrome, which was later blown up. By technical issues about the time of the royal wedding, the first Eastman colour film I ever saw was that wonderful one taken by the Canadian Film Unit. When the happy couple departed in a rainstorm from Nova Scotia, you found that all summer, I realise how wonderful colour film is, if you get away from Sunshine, sunshine is the enemy in my view of colour photography. What you need is a subject or something like only about three stops contrast difference between highlight and shadow full stops at the most. And colour is it was a bit of a problem Middle East, but at least the shadows with any vertical. Vertical sounds very, fairly short,

John Legard  7:43  
so you didn't get some too much.

Michael Clarke  7:45  
Shadows there shadows were really embarrassment, this sort of us shaped shadow in the middle of the day, and yet if we put reflectors on people, they look so awful. Anyway, it was colour colour was fine by then. And it was 35 mil. And but when I got back to the shell fuel, a year or two later, we were back on the Newman Sinclair camera and normally synthetic Ms. I'll talk about that in a moment. Anyway, this film was notable for the fact that it was made in colloquial Arabic And I thought it was the first film ever made in colloquial Arabic, because of the custom in Egypt or Iraq or Arabia, wherever that films should be in the classical language. This was a convention that feature film is though in a live scene, the hero saves the hair in May I kissed the my friend Jabra, who had a very natural sense of language, he wrote a thought of what he called heightened colloquial, colloquial used by educated people. As opposed to the colloquial the classical, which is the same as the language of the Quran. The convention is that all formal occasions should be in classical including, say a prime minister speech, or the opening of a building or something. Anyway, this caused a little bit of a sensation and also helped to project Jabra to the near the front of the cultural scene was funny moment when it was had to be seen by the Minister of information and the foreign minister. Because all films are made up of a very close supervision. Every shot had to be every sequence had to be approved before it could be used. And at the end of showing the complete film, The Prime Minister and the foreign minister and several others were quite approving the Minister of information who was a little chap sort of scheming for promotion, quite obviously a repulsive little man. He said, in English for my benefit. I'm sorry to hear educated people in this film speaking this filthy colloquial. And the foreign minister said to him also in English, it may have escaped you that you made that comment in the same filthy colour. Anyway, I was able to say they were all shot a year or two later in the revolution. I've left out the fact that when I went to Iraq in 52, to make that film, I was also asked halfway through the shooting of it, to set up a film unit for permanent or semi permanent residence in Baghdad to work for the oil company. And to do various sort of socially useful things it was said, as well as making instructional and other films for the oil company. And indeed, I was offered the job. But I turned it down for a number of reasons that are not really important. One of them is the fact that my wife is a scientist at a perfectly good job and was just as it were starting to make her name and publish back in the UK. But john Sherman, my great friend and mentor in British transport films, was interested and came out on spec. And he took it on and I'm sure that he has talked to will talk about this. And that unit lasted for quite a long time as I'm not sure how many years. And of course, it was there when I made the film and just talking about which was called by the way and not know.

Unknown Speaker  11:34  
How do you spell that then

Michael Clarke  11:35  
NIH and you, W apostrophe, a L, space, apostrophe, a L, a, m, the apostrophe before the word signifies the vowel ln, which is, which is a kind of awful noise. It's not really easy to make. So one says, well, Ireland, Ireland, but Ireland, like when the word and ourselves and the title is sort of self explanatory. The film was re edited after the revolution to exclude all the seasons that had photographs of the king on the walls of Guardians, rooms or sets, things of that sort. As I said, all these people who attended the approval show were all shot in in law after the revolution

John Legard  12:20  
is running. How long did john Chevron stay after the revolution? That's

Michael Clarke  12:22  
what I can't remember. I'm just asking I'm really not sure. So after this, the shell Film Unit asked me to join them, in particular, to do an investigation of a possible film for the EU, un the United Nations technical assistance programme. It was a film on the importance of what was nowadays called technology transfer, technical assistance in various forms of development in Europe, the Middle East and Asia, but particularly Asia. And I set off on what transpired to be an amazing Swan that took me from London to Beirut from Beirut to Bombay, a New Delhi. From there to Colombo from Colombo to Singapore, from Singapore to Sarawak, and Borneo, from their back to Singapore, and to Thailand, Thailand to Burma, to Pakistan. Never got to Afghanistan, because the weather was not suitable for flying for a week then to Tehran. And I wrote treatment and a report on a film that shell would sponsor and pay for but will be made would be made for World distribution, about the work of the United Nations in assisting the evolution of things as diverse as cheap methods of construction of Community Housing, to the prevention of arthropod borne diseases like sandfly, fever and so on, to the construction of dams. It covered so many different themes. all concerned with development in the widest sense of trying to improve the lives of people in what we now call a third world used to be called underdeveloped countries then become became called developing countries, whether to do with medicine, or public health, or transport, or the improvement of industrial techniques. And one of the things that became very clear in Asia was that the example of China was as important as anything being done in Europe or America. And I got myself as far as Hong Kong. It was clear that China was important, but I think I went to Hong Kong As maps through reading novels, who is that famous lady Chinese writer? I'm planning to remember. Oh yes.

John Legard  15:07  
Hannah Cyrano's hands two years.

Michael Clarke  15:10  
Anyway, I seem to be a chartered Liberty because I arrived with around the world our ticket and you could almost change itself change these and add to them and the local shell company said, Oh, you want to go from wrong Hong Kong for Rangoon back to Hong Kong. Okay, we fixed a ticket. And in Hong Kong, I had been given strict orders not to enter Republic of China. The relations with shell have very tricky because China was a potential enemy power. And multinationals are not supposed to supply war material, including oil, petrol. And I will see the head of shell in Hong Kong who invited me to a tremendous party up on the peak, I told him this, and he's in rubbish, heavy wind cantando tomorrow evening, which he did when I was a good boy. And we didn't. But I wrote a treatment suggesting that really to get a picture of development and the role of the UN there in in Asia, without China would be a Hamlet without the prince scenario. And this led to a magnificent lunch in the Savoy grill, the only time I've ever been there with a colleague Phillips was a PR chap in the film unit, and representative of the republican Chinese embassy. And as a result of this lunch, and the discussion took place whereby we will be allowed to film in China, for I can't remember the figure, but let us say 100,000 barrels of crude oil, something of this sort. And in the end, that project was dropped because it taught me a tremendous amount about international organisations. And I had actually applied for a job at one point with UNESCO to run soldier development field munitions in Syria, which I had not got. So I got more and more interested in as it were the for the field of international endeavour. And then I went to shell. And while I was in Shell, and the possibility came up with the film for the World Health Organisation, and this was my next assignment, it was a an elaborate film on communicable diseases in Asia an international efforts to subdue them, and, if necessary, get rid of them, if possible, get rid of them. So I made an investigation in Europe in tuning Spain and Yugoslavia. I was interested in Yugoslavia as a country decimated, damaged by war, and how they rebuilt the health services. And then interestingly, they're in different ways in what is now Slovenia is a British GP type system. Whereas in what are now Croatia and Serbia, there was the more central European polyclinic system where nobody had a GP and you always went to a great big place. Anyway, I wrote, I did a lot of investigative work on this film, I suppose it took about five months to investigate and write it including various travels. And we eventually called the film unseen enemies, because it was about basically bacteria. And

John Legard  18:14  
I should remember that title, I must have seen the finished film.

Michael Clarke  18:16  
Well, the film had a very, very wide circulation. And it was one of the few show films that were shown on television.

Unknown Speaker  18:26  
And

John Legard  18:27  
so it

Michael Clarke  18:28  
was it was a tracing the way in which we deal with these invisible organisms that are communicated pass from one to another, either directly of insects or whatever. And we filmed in Lebanon, in Spain, Tacoma, all those tourist areas that are now the Costa del Sol were written with Tacoma in the late 50s. In fact, the Spanish government were very worried that we were filming this campaign in the village they went to look forward to three years ago, I can't find it now. It's just covered with hotels. But at that time,

John Legard  19:05  
so did you actually have a new script that you did the treatment and script or script a new director,

Michael Clarke  19:10  
most scripted directors isn't

John Legard  19:13  
very much in the shell tradition that hasn't been to absolute directly our own stuff.

Michael Clarke  19:18  
We filmed the school children, learning learning to treat their parents with Tacoma by putting the terramycin ointment in their eyes, same school children who in school were writing out and we filmed this right out 50 times. An angel is a spirit century God and draw a picture of an angel. But the children were also treating their parents we filmed with, we never included in the end we traced them your malaria. Sorry a smallpox contact or arrived in Switzerland filled with a Swiss ci D tried to trace this man boulevards hotel, things of this sort. We filmed malaria, in Turkey, east of Ankara and in Mexico Go on horseback. We filmed elephantiasis campaigns in India we filmed malaria and Sarawak also going up the river with Johnson up boards at the back terrifying thing is we filmed them being given these outdoors in order to be able to go to a new piece of jungle and cut it down and burn it in order to grow crops

John Legard  20:21  
that tell me who was terrible who photograph is who is your who is it what is your unit on this one

Michael Clarke  20:28  
Sydney beetle,

Unknown Speaker  20:29  
just based

Michael Clarke  20:31  
off sort of engineering type camera mount. And Sydney beetle was never happier than with a clockwork camera on a very heavy tripod pointing straight as an object. But as a second camera, we took an aeroflex which is a camera designed to be used handheld whenever necessary. It was just before the niagra I think or only just during we didn't have any song that song or we will use it at least for effects. But for example, I mean when we arrived in a town in the middle of Colombia, where the government yellow fever campaign was setting up a stall in the great market held on Good Friday, the use of celebrations, tremendous market. The Newman Sinclair camera had failed, but this camera man was not happy with our flex, he was extremely close. And we were filming this incredibly lively scene in this market. You can't imagine what you probably can. If ever, there was a handheld sequence to be shot button. We did all this on tripod, this sort of thing. And it may be that was accounted for a telegram sent to me by Stuart leg. I told him we had 500 kilogrammes of free equipment. He said, can hear 500 kg of equipment, we move between shots and shots. And I knew just what he meant we we had a tremendous router, this chap was

John Legard  22:05  
sort of cumbersome,

Michael Clarke  22:07  
was a very talented engineering cameraman, but he was not the right person for this film. And it's astonishing how well it did considering so he can't have been as bad as all that he was a decent man, actually. But he was a different kind of person.

John Legard  22:24  
Oh, it is probably very technically absolutely sound. Everything was perfect. Yes,

Michael Clarke  22:29  
it just didn't, it just could have taken a wing

John Legard  22:33  
didn't have that.

Michael Clarke  22:34  
It was made very, very closely with who in fact so closely that by the time we got to the assemblies, although rough cut stage, the head of shell chemicals was a Canadian who came from a different commercial tradition. And he saw this and said, Why the hell are we making these films about diseases we don't sell anything for. He said stick and stick to insecticides that we make the freedom to make things to cure to a coma Who the hell cares about antibiotics, but he was persuaded, I think not just by me that the PR value of the film to the ordinary audience was far more important than the relevance to their direct line of production. And that was the the shell line that was the first sign of it being eroded, actually. But then you say, how can you prove this doesn't make good unless you can prove it with a set of test marketing area in East Anglia or something, then it's a waste of money, which is actually as Lewis Carroll pointed out, is not a logically sound proposition. So that was a very big field. We took a long time because I had to teach myself and so on microscopy, and we're now in 57, and 857, eight right good old film took about a year and a half, I guess. But considering the labour circulated in at least 30 of possibly 40 languages sounds

John Legard  23:59  
as a

Michael Clarke  24:00  
bit his job being says still Well, two years ago, it was still the second most popular shell filled because they're still available. So then non theatrical market. And then I did various other things. Then I was put in charge of a film about the evolution of the Royal Society for the Tercentenary. But there was a raw about that, and I was accused of being too interested in the subject. Now, this led me to thinking that was most interesting about that period that the treatment became the sort of minor art for the film would follow somehow, the great thing was to write the treatment. Now one of the things that sold the Iraq films seven or eight years earlier, I think was Stuart legs treatment. Just to give you an example of one line in it, which I've always remembered about this pipeline is described as a sort of dust and sand swirling about And through it all, in nert. By the ditch side, the great pipe itself successively attacked by swarms of bee like workers. Now, that is real treatment is because it's left to the director to decide how the hell to put this into reality. But it's the kind of slightly heightened language that at one time seemed, seemed to be very popular, seemed to tend to sell films. Yes.

John Legard  25:28  
Yes, I just like this sort of potentials were

Unknown Speaker  25:31  
very good at. Yes,

John Legard  25:32  
because I noticed that a lot of films at that time looking back on I'm seeing them

Michael Clarke  25:37  
still learning how to grow great reputation for this. And it's fairly easy to imitate it actually. But or to parody, I think so. But a really good example, in the film that shell made with john Armstrong directing about international aviation, whose name I have momentarily forgotten, but it was, it was about the whole business of the enormous growing traffic both in goods and in people, and how people were being enabled to move all over the world. And then a rather beautifully shot sequence of a child asleep in a then piston engine, BOC plane coming back from India, and Indian Child, and relating this to radio beacons. Stuart leg wrote the line again, I've never forgotten it of this child mirror, sleep little mirror in your cradle in the sky. That sounds dead corny until the next line, the unseen sounding beacons of the dark are watching over you. Now, this is heightened poeticism. But it was right with the shots. And it was a good way of just as it were referring to radio beacons that make navigation possible. But in the same film he wrote, I think will absolutely unforgiveable line because I'm true. As far as I know, to fill in a shot on the tarmac of Tehran or some DC four or something. Describing the growing trade in goods and freight said there's a regular trade in sausage skins from Tehran to the stock market to Chicago. But it's just not true. There was no such trade. produced like maize fields, cargoes and faraway names faraway places, produce the faraway feeling. And I think that's portable.

John Legard  27:27  
I take your point is is sort of found location when we heard that Stewart talking about power flight they were you know, that was another film you

Michael Clarke  27:36  
know, this is film called something of the skies I was born. It was it was an enjoyable show. Yeah. But we're talking about Stuart legacy we used we used to say this was parody of all we heard once when he left shell that he was writing a film for some manufacturer of carpets, and we all vibe with each other. And in Ralph Sheldon, I did this with. So Tesla is from it like you're on the carpet in front of the bus in Milwaukee. While you're on a prayer match is far away, just for hon. Because that's the way you play it. You have some cards, the names of places you have the cards with some adjectives. But nevertheless, this is also how poets work. And somewhere in between the two.

John Legard  28:24  
steward for this while the sardonic humour I imagined in a way that he was sort of standing up in himself in a way it wasn't me it was slightly this way.

Michael Clarke  28:31  
And yet he was very keen on the concept of being a good journalist.

John Legard  28:36  
Oh, right. Yes, he

Michael Clarke  28:37  
was he was gone himself as his story. When he is I said, can you learn from history? He said, I wish you'd stop asking that question. But the main thing is to be a good journalist. Anyway, so that was shell. And then I was on this road society films, I was accused of being too interested in the subject. So as I said, this was because of treatment I wrote, I felt that with the record, I had acquired whatever, such as it was, I wrote a treatment what we ought to be doing, but it wasn't glorious. It wasn't grand, it didn't describe the majesty of Meteorology. It didn't describe the thrills, the potential risks of reverses on biology. So perhaps

John Legard  29:19  
you're too close. And

Michael Clarke  29:21  
I wasn't too close to it. It was that the treatment did not impress as itself as a work of art of work of minor art. And I was given a week to rewrite it so I rewrote it again with more purple words, you know, with two pots of ink a little purple one, the big black one. And no, I was taken off. It has been too if you're too interested in it. And I say this because I'm so interested, I want to make it and having lived amongst

John Legard  29:54  
the rather weird people are thinking

Michael Clarke  29:55  
they were weird. I mean, they're always Alright, but the weirdness is part of the price you pay For the good courses. So Ramsey short, who was my assistant was put in charge of it. But in point of fact, he had very large that he was my treatment. But he wasn't as thrilled as I was.

John Legard  30:13  
Actually he was able to stand up activate was he?

Michael Clarke  30:16  
Well, he wasn't he wasn't excited by the film wasn't enormously successful. Whereas the the two films made, the worse. It doesn't include Dennis to gallows film got the revealing lie. It was one of the great scientific films of all time, it's a compilation film of the uses of cinematography, from about 1896 or seven, two other than present day. I've shown this to art students, I think it's quite wonderful. And I keep asking, shall if I could update it for them. I said, I'll even do it for no money if and pay the expenses. But it really is a great film that ought to be

John Legard  30:52  
terribly interesting hearing all this about these films, because you're now sort of showing what happened after the circle documentary movement had reached the Senate and gone into its decline. So call it was carrying on, you know, it was well, you know, this was,

Michael Clarke  31:07  
I think the point I made, I'm not sure if I spoke on the record about Elizabeth Sussex on her book, so called Rise and Fall of documentary, I would say that the fall, fall was a dramatic word looking for a dramatic story, that in point of fact, it was the increasing acceptance of and incorporation of factual film techniques, informative film techniques, in all a variety, the maturity, maturity, maturity. But what also happens, which gets forgotten, I think that some of the films made by others, directed by others, quite a few of which were produced by me in a fairly active way. In particular, I'm thinking of directors like Peter to normanville films on on scientific or technological processes, were films of great and appropriate beauty. I don't mean they were picture school picture ask they were beautiful because of their truth to subject. A film made a little later for a AI by McNaughton, on a particular gear system is just so beautiful to look at, because, and the beauty of it reflects the beauty of the thinking of this particular innovation that the film is about

John Legard  32:25  
is interesting about Mac Yes, because we interviewed him last year. Yes, I think he mentioned

Michael Clarke  32:32  
that there is a wonderful kind of filmmaking as the exposition of process, which has not quite been replaced or improved on my television. Most people in this field have moved into television I myself have done so to some extent. But television tends to be more colloquial, more discursive. The films that we're talking about had Perforce to be made in a way that can make them easily translatable. Therefore, they couldn't rely on colloquial dialogue. to nearly the same extent, if it was used in a crucial, explanatory role, then it had to be in some way subtitled or translated. Another language put over the top. So that these films were very filmic. In the old, if you like, sort of Russian sense of using images and their relationship through editing and relationship with sound to explain the process, they were more visual films, whereas the really splendid, often splendid programmes like Equinox and horizon, two of which I written myself are, nevertheless much more discursive with a camera is a reporting tool, rather than

John Legard  33:52  
explaining much more journalistic

Michael Clarke  33:54  
and it's a pity in a way that this sort of tradition has disappeared from all these marvellous industrial processes, because parallel where the evolution of television has come the evolution of the accountant as a power force in industry, and the advertising agent working in collusion with the accountant who says you cannot prove that the film made for the World Health Organisation or whatever. And distributed the way it has been has been many benefits the company therefore, it has been of no benefit. Whereas if you make a product film on the lubricating oil or electric light bulb, you can test market that in particular areas and you can evaluate the test, and you can also measure the return you're getting. But this is the struggle that public affairs or public relations departments have all the time they cannot prove that some things are not easy to measure. But nevertheless, we often know in our hearts that they ought to be done So the sponsor trove of the code I'm talking about, is not quite as obvious as public relations measure as keeping on good terms with the government or something. But it is in the order of saying that there are some expenditures where you have to back a hunch, but then make the best choices you can find. And companies like BP and shell and to a lesser extent Unilever, to a greater extent, ici and several others in smaller numbers went on preserving this tradition of a film that was for public service, in the era of their expertise, rather than a product advertising film, which an awful lot of people wouldn't want to see at all, just because it was an advertising film. So it's a matter of where you put your resources. But I'm sorry, that the, with all the interest in technology, that there is not, and insights and all the need for wider education, this traditional filmmaking has disappeared. This is also a rather cheap tradition. They're not sort of instantaneous. With television, you can go and shoot a sequence in somebody's lab in MIT or Cambridge or whatever, and come back with a presentable 30 or 40 minutes in a very short time, whether it's been actually a good explanation of the difference between influenza a and influenza B and what the world is doing about it isn't, isn't necessarily proven, but the shortness of time and the economy. So

John Legard  36:30  
where we got to yesterday,

Michael Clarke  36:32  
actually, shell and I'm just thinking there are some other things that ought to be mentioned. I think one is in connection with these. This sort of film that I'm talking about. Arthur, Elton had a very good phrase that aesthetics of clarity. And I don't know whether this is art or craftsmanship and I hate all these sort of pecking order distinctions Actually, I don't know whether the great arts and crafts carpenters of the Cotswolds were artists or craftsmen if you put a marquetry design over here is this car of chest weather is this art or is in craft but the aesthetics of clarity is a good phrase. I got into trouble later on from students in the late 60s who said you know this really shows that how you're really so goddamn easily fixated with all your interest in clarity all this accuracy. Why don't you give all those compulsions up Masuda good analyst and make the essential confrontation with yourself? You have never thought about who you are. I said I thought about who I am what I make is what I am. That was 10 years later when talking about

John Legard  37:50  
so anyway, well, right but you're not you're not the stage or from having left show

Michael Clarke  37:57  
wonder I'm at the stage actually in the late 50s 59 also having been taken off making a great Earth shaking film about the dozen theory of Royal Society and being on to preparing our project in chemistry to be made with associated Rediffusion in the person of Enid love who used to be head of education of schools in associate Rediffusion there was to be a rather grand scheme whereby there would be a co production between shell international and Rediffusion whereby there will be prepared programmes for schools have different levels on different aspects of icebergs physics and chemistry, mathematics, the film component of which will be made by the shell Film Unit and the English versions of which will be provided in television format by associated Rediffusion. But the shell would have the rights to sell or rather give the film components and English language scripts or the programmes to educational television people in Swaziland or Hong Kong or wherever for making in the appropriate language. In other words, the film sequences would be all translatable, it would be commentary via cinema type. And we went quite a long way developing this until finally the Independent Television authority as it was Mbita banned it on on the boundaries on the grounds that potential advertisers taking part in the nature programme material. A little later when Arthur Elton film centre and shell went to AI as the head of public information here and I planned a series of one minute commercials on the great inventors of the electrical and electronic age. On Graham Bell, for example, Edison and so forth, one minute potted documentaries on Kelvin, so forth and these two are banned by the ITA on the grounds that they would be to like a programme that must not be mistaken for prover

John Legard  40:18  
no clear enough

Michael Clarke  40:21  
is not a rule as kept anymore and they say

John Legard  40:24  
well, yes,

Michael Clarke  40:25  
sometimes if you're looking at this temporary drama Philip Savile or something you cut to a commercial you didn't realise it or rather you is in the commercial break on the net commercially I think we've gone back to the drama

John Legard  40:36  
is quite true actually. Yes there is a there they also need to get to

the end of the programme.

Unknown Speaker  40:44  
Yeah, why I mean the symbols have gone Yes,

Unknown Speaker  40:47  
especially issue goes cut straight for

Michael Clarke  40:48  
one thing before sometimes it sometimes has gone for about 10 frames you just see the fall it goes away again. Well, Arthur Elton in 1960, I think or possibly late 59 left film centre theoretically, the I don't think you sold his shares and became head of public information for associated electrical industries a very large electrical combine, which has now been swallowed up over the last good few years by GC general electrical. But AI had the huge works making turbine generators in Manchester Metropolitan Vickers, you had British Thompson who's invented early sound system at rugby and research labs in college and elsewhere. And Arthur, Elton decided to set up a film unit on the shell model, which will be run by film centre. Needless to say call the AI Film Unit and film Centre at the same time has just taken over the shell photographic units. This is a big mistake all around. Shell decided they ought to put out things all to privatises it were a part of their operations. And they also wanted to get rid of the shell Film Unit from their own premises. So film centre opened up huge set of offices in Oxford Street and up close to the Euston road, Warren Street to house in the latter case, the photographic unit in the former case, not only the AI Film Unit, but also the shell Film Unit was moved to Oxford Street. And I started by being the producer of the AI Film Unit. There we made the first film we made we made with arcu McNaughton again, it was a film called The a 1010 computer. This was a computer which occupied the space of, say, a large sitting room. It had many hundreds of valves gave off several kilowatts of heat. And it will do what nowadays you're the cheapest Macintosh can do a great deal more than but it was one of the earliest digital computers devised by some signal engineers from who originally had tried to invent a computer using a dexron valve using decimal arithmetic such as we use in everyday life. They hadn't at that point even heard of binary. They were just resolute electrical engineers working with a 10 channel valve. But eventually this this was a binary system. And it we had to write very complicated animation to describe the way it would do do what they nowadays call multitasking, it will do several things at the same time. While printing this, it would look up the cost of that and add to the stock record of the other. And the RF bought two of it for their stock records. And I think they're probably too big to preserve, but it really was one of the largest computer ventures, first large computer ventures in the whole of Britain. And we made this film about it and we set on went on making films of the greatest interest to me we made I think the first film ever made on radio astronomy, with the present Astronomer Royal Jodrell Bank Professor Greg Smith, the radio sky, I was really proud of that film,

John Legard  44:16  
who did your animation. In fact, on those day do you have different people their wisdom,

Michael Clarke  44:21  
which was rather linear sort of thing. I used to use huge pieces of growth and I think it was right there. JACK chambers, jack chambers. I became very friendly and collaborative is right pace, who actually set up on the

John Legard  44:33  
right pace had a very good setup.

Michael Clarke  44:35  
And I worked with him a great deal. The first film we made after the computer film actually was a film called electron electron microscopy, but AI they make electron microscopes, but in the shell tradition, the film was not about them. It was about electron microscopy. We had the same problem that to introduce people to electron microscopy, we had to show some of the firsts achieved by electron microscopes other than those made by AI and they tried to say that we mustn't have the first shot of a virus or whatever it was, because it was a Phillips machine. But we overcame them and said, Look, the prestige of this is the truth to subject. Your prestige is from the truth to subject and your involvement in the subject. But it was quite a struggle they wanted only the great truths revealed by their microscopes, but we got over it.

John Legard  45:25  
What else was it who else was with you at the A

Unknown Speaker  45:28  
Michael Crossfield?

John Legard  45:30  
Was he Yes, really.

Michael Clarke  45:32  
He had come back from Africa and today

Michael Clarke  0:08  
After the computer film The next film for AI, the first one for a while, rather why the public was a film on electron microscopy, which Michael Crossfield made with Peter Griffis having come in as the production manager for this very small unit, we set up a nucleus and then we anticipated if you like the trend of having a very tiny unit will taking everybody on a freelance basis can't picture my picture. And Crossfield came to make this film it soon transpired that it was a huge subject. And we wondered if it was getting a bit beyond us until I realised that the caption is everything. And if the film was called not electron microscopy, but electron microscopy and the introduction, we would be all right. And it was a perfectly good and valid introduction to the subject. And it made Arthur Elton feel that some, as he said some new spirit has been born I thought it was roughly well known spirit of his own shell Film Unit, but nevertheless, he was very pleased this film and publicised as within this huge company and we had a great deal of work, film on the radio sky was made, I think very successfully. And trying to think yes, we made a film mathematical Brad Kaufman is now moved to Canada on mass spectroscopy and the second one on the introduction to control systems negative and positive feedback. My Indian friend from shell at my lab, by Bombay film director came to make the film the peaceful revolution in India sponsored photograph by Afghans who shecky this was a film of technological optimism but nevertheless with truth, the revolutionary effect on village life and culture of electrification. In a way it took Lenin's phrase about socialism plus electrification equals communism to a different level that Indian culture plus electrification he permits enormous development and diversification and add Milan who has lived the warriors in a bomb threatened Bombay in darkness from the Eve in a village near Bombay. The evening was a great round to film the way in which in a village light equals time and people can learn to do things learning to read even Michael aura made a film based on the Faraday lecture, the world of semiconductors. Interesting because the semiconductors that were demonstrated then in I suppose 1963 now you can place over a million of the monad chip the size of a fingernail, that shows how fast things have evolved in 30 years. McNaughton made that beautiful film the circuit gear which I referred to. German dozer made a film describing the multiplicity of communications equipment they made, which was more of a product film and less successful. Interestingly, it was actually about a misfortune that had happened to a ship of Africa. But it was somehow too made to measure to be a true documentary, those well made within its lights.

John Legard  3:32  
But it wasn't made. What was it? well received and didn't get widely shown.

John Hargreaves  3:36  
Well, it was really meant as a kind of film to show at marketing parties, I think, right? Yeah.

John Legard  3:41  
So probably it was not a few of you in the audience. But nevertheless, important audience

John Hargreaves  3:46  
It was a functional film, but it wasn't really a public film. Meanwhile, at this time, I've just got the notes are some of the people if you're under be forgotten that shell because really, this was, I think, the height of the shells film in its period, the period that began in 1939, when Jeffrey Bell and Arthur Elton made a film called transfer cards, the history of the toothed wheel. Now that was the beginning historians will say, of the film about scientific and technical processes. It's simply described how power is transmitted in Mills, with wooden gear systems are pegged to thrills and so forth from the wind in one direction or the water to turn millstones, pump water and so forth. And that tradition went straight on and I'm not sure that it does still go on except in universities, and the people that ought not to be forgotten are Denis de gallo, who I mentioned, a chemist by training, who was always somehow oppressed by Arthur Elton Arthur Elton hated real scientists he hated my wife was a real scientist and a very successful one. I say he hated but he was not comfortable, because he had made a pretension of being the apostle of science in film and fair enough, but he was not comfortable with the real article. He was never comfortable with Denis de gallo, who was a weakened a decent man and weak in the sense that he didn't fight he was too decent to fight. He hadn't got the competence skills that make for success in television, even the woman film but he should not be forgotten and he has been making teaching films in Thailand these 20 years and I believe still is historically the UN and then became a Thai citizen, having acquired a Thai second wife, and he lives to the house called I can't remember how funny they were like Patton Polin, Ramsay short, who last died of a brain tumour about five years ago. He was taken on by BBC to well by beat by ob singer BBC in 1963. And I'll come to how Aubrey made an offer to me as well. Here's an architect by training. And he made some admirable television films, especially the well on Frank Lloyd Wright, which was one of his best. Douglas Gordon took over from me running the shell Film Unit. Until there was me and several other things as far as I can remember. Alan Pendry who now I think is a historian. His wife, Cynthia Pendry was the editor of the only shell film that ever won. What was then a British Film Academy Award film called The threat in the water, which I wrote some produced Richard Begum directed

John Legard  6:47  
name I haven't heard runtime who became a Lord and the

John Hargreaves  6:51  
Lord mercy. And there were other events connected with original bigger. He, he and I, later on. This is back in 1969. Later, were asked to do a pollution film The shell, which we went into in good faith, and I resigned from it because in my view, they The only way that they could operate as a prime contributor to pollution was making sort of film that say the BBC would have made but they wouldn't stick to it. Then I see I tried to save attack. And I was not involved in that. But Richard also resigned from that for the same reason.

John Legard  7:32  
He was just up the road.

John Hargreaves  7:34  
Yes, that's right. He does. But he had some other contratar which are none of our business, you know, that he had some difficulties in his life. But I think now he's, he's working again, then. I mean, we've mentioned Stuart leg quite often as a producer, Jeffrey Bell, was often neglected by Arthur Elton who first gave him a job and allowed him to become a distinguished director. I believe he's still around john Armstrong moved from shell. JOHN also is almost always described as the best shooter in the business. But he actually is the most determined filmmaker. I've been working with him in the last few years on a series on the history of the earth, which Douglas school has also taken over, then in Brundle in Singapore, Lionel Coe, who was abroad nearly all the time that I was in Shell. I once got a cable when I was in Africa. From Elton's saying, you are required to move to Caracas to replace coal on leave your future career depends on this.

Unknown Speaker  8:38  
And so I haven't given statement

John Hargreaves  8:40  
well, either it was in supportable magazine for the show general manager who said I have to send to me and I only met him because he was in Lagos. He said I owe you an apology. I'm deeply sorry. I said well, he said I received this cable in clear it's unforgiveable so I got my own backup offer by sending my cable we're in the middle of this whole film, which is always in various bits but I think as needed rushes said, Stop required. And I used to use the journalist conceit of saying Primo secondo for each section. I finally got down to octava I got to Elton for Elton cable receive thanks but no. We then flew to South America. Cable was waiting for me from Stuart saying Elton deeply hurt by your cable. Stories. Club deeply hurt by suggestion should abandon film, which is so dedicated. However, the only thing to do with Elton was to stand up to him. As I said, Thanks, but no. I telephoned my wife who was you know, was doing fine as a lecturer in biochemistry. He will see me He just wanted to throw up everything.

John Legard  10:02  
Sounds like Grissom.

John Hargreaves  10:04  
Exactly. Yeah, but you just have to pay those people back in kind. These normal veils filled frontiers of friction was a quite beautiful explanation of friction and the development of new materials like bcfe. To overcome it. lm Pender is filmed the river was live was an eloquent, impressionistic film. The other shell trend was the great films on great cosmic subjects of the river must live as one, which Stuart legs tell us played a big part in both in shaping and in Word writing. Then there were simple films like pattern of refining that Michael hexa, the painter made a lovely film by Michael eckford, on the glazing of the new Liverpool Catholic Cathedral. The point being the show made the remarkable adhesives and the techniques for colouring the glass that were used by these famous stained glass maker I forgotten his name very well known. JOHN Piper wasn't the wasn't john Piper Actually,

John Legard  11:08  
it was another chap. wrench Ian's No Yes,

John Hargreaves  11:11  
that's right, Patrick. Then the famous shell film, malaria received its third update with ad Moran and myself again, that is one of the classic films shown in languages all over the world as the exposition, which keeps changing as the organism keeps changing, and knowledge keep changing the way in which the malaria parasite spreads through the mosquitoes of certain types and into the bloodstream and what can be done about it. All this was a it was a great tradition,

John Legard  11:40  
very rich period. That wasn't

John Hargreaves  11:42  
it. I'm not saying it should have lived because two things changed. Television changed. And as I say, accountancy and business methods changed.

John Legard  11:52  
You think that some of those films should be resuscitated and shown to the world in general, because one felt that they were shown to a sort of closed circles and when

John Hargreaves  11:59  
I think you're going to run an NF t series now that would be quite popular.

John Legard  12:03  
I mean, you see, they still go on trotting out the old British transport stuff, you know, we've been patient ever ever again. I'm delighted they are shown but once it fills the so many films being made at that time by other people like shell, particularly one, but

John Hargreaves  12:15  
of course, no, everybody makes films and But nevertheless, these films cannot be distinguished from films made now. That's right. Yes, they have a tambours. It will be this

John Legard  12:23  
is something we ought to discuss with Barry coward who runs the Morocco because he's in in that business.

John Hargreaves  12:30  
He is quite an entrepreneurial chap who

John Legard  12:32  
he is indeed. might bring that up next time I see him anyway. So yes, sir, when I was

John Hargreaves  12:42  
1963, I decided that I wanted to change and when I found out there was a job going on at the Royal College of Art, in the was almost non existent. what was then called the Department of film and television. The Royal College of Art had started the film school as it became under a man called George Haslam, who was a stage designer and theatre set designer. But who died and then a man called Peter Newington, took it over for a year and bloodied his copy book in some ways I never understood and didn't stay. And Keith Lucas, who would be RCA painter, and then head of graphics at the London press exchange for commercial meeting, was suddenly appointed as the head of the department of film. And it was clear that he needed someone who'd made some film because he had never made a film in his life. But the RCA his view was the film is a visual medium. And one of our painters is good chap, and he should be able to cope with this sort of thing. And indeed, he'd been an art director for commercials. But this was back in the 50s and 60s. And I heard those this vacancy and I applied for it. And Ed grants the latest said, Why don't you tell me you're interested, you could have had the headship he wanted because he had grandstay was on the Council of the Royal College of Art as are on almost everything. And I vowed at that time that when I became 65, I would not try and stay on everything, because Arthur Elfman and garansi stayed trying to keep a finger in various pies almost until they died. And I vowed I wouldn't do this I would go on making roll and trying to control but I unders understand that all too well. Now the impulse to birth to say well after all I do have some experience there should be some value. And indeed search showed up to a point until you as it comes a point when it is of decreasing value. Anyway, so I went along as sort of head of production as what's called a tutor, which is the equivalent of a lecturer University salaries are all the same. And I found that the department was really under graphic design and I tried to get that separated and made it of medium in its own right The bad moment came when Keith Lucas while I was away on an agreed holiday before the college opened together pointed a camera man that I had never heard of. And it was not I think conceited to say that. If I hadn't heard of him, he would be unlikely to be worth pointing to the iron house. And he turned out to be a chap who unfortunately it was a near alcoholic. Later on when the great attempts to become the National Film School, in which we and the University of Bristol drama department and competition came around. George Elvin, who was on the national allied committed to create a National Film School, took one look at this camera and said, well, let's finish. If you call appointed a man like this, then there's no way that we could recommend you. He was a decent bloke, he just kept a bottle of plunk in his drawer. And he had no feel at all he could expose a shot. And that was about it. It was and Keith Lucas made this tragic mistake. And then he after a year he had he was a probationary, he could have fired him and he was too sorry for what happened to him to fire him. Oh, I see. That sort of thing. You I mean, I understand how it's bloody hard for people and one person I think in my life, but I've been very lucky as I haven't had to. But this man should have gone everybody knew it. But anyway, nevertheless, it was interesting to go to film school where almost everybody has had an art training. And I actually managed to bring about the people with it was a postgraduate institution. So people had to have degrees or degree equivalence that we should get in people with language or literature or science or history degrees or whatever. And indeed We did. We had no equipment to begin with, except three wooden cameras and intercommunication system for television to pretend to be a television studio. Unbelievable. But this was used by this sector design a man and an aeroflex. And I think some sort of 16 hour flex on a pic sync. But it all got moving in the end. And we started by collaborating with another Nuffield foundation television course they used to run for overseas people.

And eventually, I realised that we got some very talented people. And after the first three years decoster the BBC rang up and said, I'll take your best student who is it? I said, Paul Watson took Paul and Paul Watson blended family remember recently did this series of the Australian family. Oh, so much trouble is produced is now a very senior producer. But he was quite brilliant painter, a brilliant lad very aggressive. his diploma film was a very sweet film about load lady and surrounded by memories and so on. No Connie, beautifully made. Lawrence Moore, who is not well known, but it is I think a very Sterling director, whose film I mentioned earlier, I think Michael rothenstein was of such distinction. I gave him his first job when I had to make a film on the life of john Dalton, the great scientist of Manchester for ACI, which was a mixture of working with existing old woodcuts, and also Manchester as long as it is now. And Lawrence did this in most imaginatively. Who else was,

John Legard  18:34  
how many people were there on course,

John Hargreaves  18:36  
I think there were about eight years that time, took 12 per year. And we also did a one year course for postgraduate. So crash course introduction to film and TV, we had a very good tutor in Tim O'Brien, who was a stage designer for the rst, in the Royal Opera, so forth. But he was a good general, sort of part time tutor. And I began to realise that, although it wasn't very easy to, quote, teach in a didactic way, I started by trying to say all I want you to know about film, photographic and camera technique is all I have needs to know I think as a filmmaker, as a director, and one who is interested to some extent. And I tried to teach him about things like lens choice, depth of field or going to lighting conditions and aperture, aperture, the lighting conditions and things of this sort. But this was in the mid 60s where there was a bit of revolt about being against being taught. Let us just find out the trouble is we're very short of money for stock. Which is why once the television and videotape came in that was a great deal easier to talk about things like what your what you call the rules, you know, the golden line of shooting dialogue and knowing where you are, and establishing shots and so on television is wonderful for

John Legard  19:59  
it. So you had to Do all this You're so I mean, did you bring in other people? To

John Hargreaves  20:03  
some extent? Yes. But there was not much money for

Unknown Speaker  20:06  
friendships,

John Legard  20:08  
people or individuals on an ad hoc basis,

John Hargreaves  20:10  
there are a small group but there are bright lot and I had exclusive right? Isn't

John Legard  20:14  
it rather nice? I

John Hargreaves  20:15  
mean, I think it was I realised, actually that it's this old business of I belong to a privileged elitism rubbish that in point of fact that people can learn to make films of a sort, really quite quickly. And of course, the technically equipment becomes easier and easier, alter this and alter that. And the talent will out.

John Legard  20:40  
Like doing those film courses, which I was involved in doing in house in Somerset, where you had a week in which to put across your knowledge to a whole lot of people who came in from all over with their cameras and film. And we scripted his first day, and we shot the second day. And we edited this fourth, the third and fourth days. And then we had a screening at the end of the week, to all the course. Great. And they came, they presumably went away much the wiser. I mean, they paid quite a bit for it. But this is sort of basic filmmaking, but people

John Hargreaves  21:12  
are more talented than one thinks. You've got to

John Legard  21:15  
stop he was telling you, but even then that week would see who the good ones were.

John Hargreaves  21:19  
But I used to soften the position that nothing is going to be much good, I now tend to think that things are likely to be good ish. Anyway. And now they look at the school locally, we have a very well equipped, comprehensive and my wife's now governor of it, and I know the people quite well. And the work they do on video, these young children. Oh, yes, yes, and video editing and so on is so competent.

Unknown Speaker  21:42  
I bet it is.

John Hargreaves  21:43  
They haven't necessarily read any books at all. But somehow, just as with some electronics and computers, and somehow the generations seem to accustomed selves to things my grandson can programme the video. This is corny. I

John Legard  21:59  
started off with it. It's there.

John Hargreaves  22:01  
at the school, everything is covered on video and said terribly good at it. But they aren't just voc tourists holding a camera and waving around. It's all it's also clearly worked out stuff. So I think this really taught me to have faith in people going through this this to the RCA. And we had this great struggle to become the National Film School. But in the end, there was no question it wouldn't have been right that the department has still exist. It's called the School of Film Television. And it's it has very good reputation. It's produced a lot of people who they're always winning prizes and these international student film competitions. One of the students there is still there as more or less head of production, I think a chap called Derek Walbank. I haven't seen him for a long time. Stuart hood took it over at one time. But he was both to Delphic and to revolutionary, here's to speak at all arcane words. But he also believed that he was a soul born 1968 in some type of person, very strange man, very educated guy, wonderful translator from Italian, really, he taught himself to tell him while the prisoner of war in Italy, and he has an income on the side from translating from Italian. That I think I'm gonna have to stop because I really would like to talk a little bit more about this and then about the university scene. But I think it would have to be another day.

John Legard  23:28  
Fair enough.

John Hargreaves  23:29  
Also got very we're starting at the Royal College of Art, I got very interested, of course, in the theory of what I had been doing in my working life, what I had been doing, I was asking questions like, is film a language or images and sounds together a language system separate from a language of images or a language of words of sounds. And I got rather deep into what is often called semiotics or semiology is the science of signs, whether they are signs on a page or road signs or films or whatever. And I made a lot of friends and acquaintances people like Richard Gregory, who afterwards became well known experiment of is a psychologist of illusion and also of the history of science. Raymond Williams, whom I knew well quite well become something of a guru of the sort of left wing theorists of literature and he was actually a best man at our wedding on our last day at Cambridge all those years ago. And Colin cherry who was Professor of Communication at Imperial and I then got involved with the council for National Academic awards, which was the body that gave degrees to polytechnics that validated rather the giving of degrees to non what were then non University bodies, and I was on the photography board. In their capacity as a film person, and vice chairman of that, and also on the communications panel, trying to investigate the nature of communication. And all this came at the same time as I persuaded the Royal College to join the British universities film Council, which started as a small group of enthusiasts, biologists and similar people using film as a tool. But I was interested as well as some others in using the wider kind of film communication as opposed to film observation as a way of providing information training and education in various fields. And the bf C's still exist. And as golf restricts the same, there's an important body of liaison intercommunication. And at this time, also, the famous bring more Jones committee on audio visual aids in education was set up by the University Grants committee to study the contribution that film, television photography and so on could make to in the first instance, scientific communicate education, though his results were broadly taken to cover higher education of all kinds. And that committee recommended the institution in universities of service units, as they were called to do Film and Television Production tapes slide, similar work in printing and so forth. And the University of London decided to set up a central one servicing these some 50 colleges, medical schools and institutes of that university. And I had heard that they could not find a prince, a director for it. And at the same time, I got the impression later confirmed that with, with the film school being turned into a school proper, with a chair and a professorship at the top, Keith Lucas will be competing, and I had been asked to compete with him for the professorship. And I felt that this would be a rather rotten trick. We've built the thing up together, and by agreement, he had his role as it were, and yeah, I had mine. But I also learned that Edgar and Steve was hoping that possibly he might end his days with full academic glory of being called a professor. And part of the scheme was that Keith Lucas and I will be competing level pegging for different reasons. And perhaps the problem could be solved by Edgar and Steve, or possibly it was suggested another distinguished person, possibly, sir, I'm

John Legard  27:32  
gonna say it might have been Arthur. Yes.

John Hargreaves  27:34  
And so I decided to pull out this as I asked the University of London, they still were looking for somebody. They said, Yes. And I asked them and showed them some things and so forth. And I was asked to take up the job and start up this film unit. Meanwhile, Keith Lucas had had his interview for the chair, and got the job the same day, it was very sweet moment. He was going to be a full professor, I was going to be paid a professorial salary. They're not called a professor. And, you know, Doctor, I went in to see to see him and said, How did it go? And that afternoon, he said, Look, Professor Lucas, so I say congratulations, meet Professor Clark. So I was never called professor. And it turns out that Edgar Anstey was on the college council had said to Keith at drinks after he got the job. Well, in the end, you were right, Keith, it wouldn't have been right for some old buffer from documentary to have taken the place over would this confirm my suspicions, which were grounded more in intimation you had a sort of an engineer. But it turns out, I was right. So I went to set up this rather large unit in London, which didn't stay large when the great cuts of the 80s and the late 70s began, which had the duty of making film, television and anything else you can think of from signs on doors to love photography, and tape and slide sequences and so on, for whoever wanted it as a huge university with 10s of 1000s of students and 1000s of academic staff. So it could never be big enough. Consequently, despite the scorn and suspicion heaped upon it by many, many academics, we always had far more work than we could ever cope with. And we slowly develop this into First of all, using old fashioned black and white television and a mobile unit multi camera unit, to a really extremely nice, well equipped, medium size, working sort of job size sensibles studio for doing this type of work and some drama in the Senate House in central London. But of course, the cuts came and came and because it was centrally funded, all the colleges were being cut so they were all jealous of their share of budget. No budget is not very high. I mean, perhaps it was the Under 1000, a year in 1981, or tube divided among 50 institutions, that wasn't very much. But nevertheless, and of course, they also wanted their own small units. And all the people in small units were anxious that we should be dissolved, so they could take it over, it was a very understandable thing. And what we tried to do is to do only the things that the colleges couldn't do, such as elaborate drama, and also elaborate animations

John Legard  30:26  
happens to a lot of this sort of university stuff. And when the finished film was, what did they get? I know they had Well,

John Hargreaves  30:34  
in in my time from when we actually started serious production, which would be about 71 to 1983, we had made 1000 programmes every one of them except to at the request of some academic or academic body, right. And these were all circulated and we had made enough income from renting them through the university film Council and to other institutions in Britain and overseas, more or less to pay to keep up with the technology to move into colour. And then to go from composite to component video

John Legard  31:10  
to video later on, of course, yes.

John Hargreaves  31:11  
And we had some capital support, were very sensibly any profits got quick profits on quite the we may we were allowed to keep on us. I don't mean for ourselves but to put back into the business. Whereas in some confusions in local government or something I was trying to manage the print work for the county was that if they ever made more money than the cost, they have to pull it back into the county so there's no incentive really to improve on their performance. Then we became quite the largest unit and certainly the most active simply because not so much of our all my skills. But because London has is a kind of it's got cattle much of the cream of scholarship in Britain, not all of it but much of it. And consequently things produced in a particular field of scholarship and study in London were of interest to people in that field elsewhere.

Unknown Speaker  32:08  
Check format.

John Hargreaves  32:11  
We started with Ampex one inch. If Ampex one inch, then we moved to IBC then we went over to u Matic. Your various grades of U Matic. And I think as is now on well they've now closed but units that remain on the new professional manage and with dubbing on usually on to your magic you know working with three machine editing

Unknown Speaker  32:41  
a quest update,

John Hargreaves  32:42  
and of course releases in into one time VHS and, and into what was it called Sony? BIT bit. Not basic. Beta cameras, the camera, BMX,

John Legard  32:55  
BMX, yes,

John Hargreaves  32:56  
to the old one that's disappeared. Michael era made the mistake of buying Betamax. Now he can't get printezis had to buy another video recorder. So all that went on. That was really, I think a great success, but it was being cut down in the 80s. But we moved into a lot of work in interactive video. I mean, we taught ourselves computing, taught ourselves how to programme video disc for making diagnostic programmes and so forth. I started by buying a copy of Richard Attenborough's birds of British gardens disc, and producing a completely phirni. All ethology teaching programme on board recognition, where you've got various choices you had to key 123 or four on the keyboard, and all that sort of stuff, which is not done so

Unknown Speaker  33:41  
many did I David, as you said,

John Hargreaves  33:44  
David Attenborough, yes. And I left in 84. And the unit continued mostly in this type of specialist development, but it became inquiry after inquiry, the last inquiry I was subjected to a man from GDC was in charge. And he said, How do you justify all this? Making things for others? And why aren't you charging commercial rates? The answer to which, of course, was they wouldn't pay commercial rates. I said, Well, I actually believe in things like, you know, mutual aid and cooperation, and we do things that they can't do and we do it for them and not for us. And he said, when you've got this sort of belief, it's good thing you're retiring soon, isn't it? This was Thatcherism at its most virulent at this point. And then after I'd retire, they brought in touche Ross to who had the instruction to provide a report that said the unit wasn't viable. And it I mean, he could have been valuable in various ways. He got to become just another film unit, like competing with all the others. It's then been instructed really to do development work because our brief has always been to develop the use of all the visual techniques. So the work on interactive video, things of this sort, the work of using video disk for archiving and so on was quite important. But then touche Ross came in, they asked me to come all the way up to London to say what I thought of it. And I said, Well, I thought of it and the chap several chapters in charge in the moment, is he a good manager? And I said, Well, I don't know what to say, because I've never worked for him. He's worked for me, I suspect he wasn't a very good manager. He said, nobody in this place has had any management training. And I think this is an important thought I said, well look. Like other people like me, I've spent, I suppose 40 years, getting it together with various numbers of groups of people either on location and or in foreign lands, or starting up units that have to work productively, and harmoniously together. And we seem to have done it. And myself, I haven't had a day out of work during all that time, nor have most of my friends. And we don't call it management. But I recommend by God we can manage. And he said, Well, yes, I mean, we, we often hear that sort of story and Mr. Clark, and of course, we respect everything you've done. But you haven't even begun to understand what management is management is not the same as managing, anybody can manage something, but management is is a science. And I thought, well, this is bullshit with our tools of management that I may not know about, but then the added management is about getting results with people you said exactly. And that is what is the scientific part of it. And so I said, Oh, that I think is that sounds very good. The end of my story, except to say that all the work we did the medical work of those 1000 programmes is now in either the Wellcome Institute's library or the British Medical Association. And nearly all the other stuff, including the sound recordings of Beckett players made in association with that great man, it's all in the National Film Archive or the national Sound Archive.

John Legard  37:08  
How many professional people do have come in from time to time on this?

John Hargreaves  37:12  
professional people?

John Legard  37:14  
Well, I mean yourselves, and, you know, because I mean, you this is a student organisation.

John Hargreaves  37:19  
No, no, I had six producers. Yeah.

John Legard  37:21  
60. If

John Hargreaves  37:22  
they weren't all trained in film schools, then they all had one or three of them were ex RCA students. One had a PhD in chemical physics, another as a PhD in biology, and he then became head of the central unit in Warwick. The first one I mentioned, took over after me he's also called Clark is very brilliant guy, difficult sometimes, but brilliant. We had three producers who all still have successful careers elsewhere, right. I had chief engineer who had been chief engineer of T WW and then a Holic TV. Who got wanted to get out of the rat race. Really? Yes, Ray Bradley, probably the most knowledgeable man on non broadcast formats and so forth. A real innovator, marvellous engineer, and another good engineer from Marconi. JOHN, when we had fascinating to high quality restaurants, we had very good graphic designers, what do you say? I think we were all professional that were in that profession of informative film and television. Yeah. We, I mean, we've produced drama programmes of various sorts. We've made films on almost every subject you can think of.

John Legard  38:31  
This is an area of course we can doesn't read nobody's first time it's been just discussed, I think I've talked

John Hargreaves  38:36  
about See, I could go into much more detail the medical work, we had a regular monthly programme GP TV, which was circulated on cassette. And one time on the network that we had, in London to general practitioners on updating was a lot of work in continuing medical education, because all doctors are out of date all the time. And they know it, they know that they must continually update themselves. With some of the great medicals and biological scientists of the present day, we're all as young persons on our programmes all those are in the welcome archive. Now.

John Legard  39:13  
I like to see some of this stuff.

John Hargreaves  39:15  
Some of it is very didactic. But we've we have to allow for the fact that some people were entirely in the kind of giving a lecture mode. So it had to be coached, to be slightly more outgoing. But we had to make material that a given audience would deal with. Sometimes the thing that will interest very much a third year structural engineer wouldn't interest to someone who watches the horizon programme on bridges, because it was too detailed. And it's very much a matter I think of pitching the level of here. We had to be guided to some extent by the academics who really they were making the programmes and we were there midwives in their whole rows, the row A lot of being people just like, say, our culture, but of their ideas and practices. But the idea of being on television that's sunk in so hard that quite often. First people used to come in and say, well, I've agreed to do this programme on, you know, immunology and travel to eradicate smallpox. So here I am, what do you want? It doesn't like this, once you've agreed to is to do us take part in one of what is called the scientific basis of medicine series for the postgraduate medical Federation. And as you know, these addressed to co workers not in your special field. Now that your audience will be doctors and medical scientists. What do you how do you want to tell them, we can offer you the following. And we have a standard system of something like, I think we could do today's location filming within 25 miles of London, or one day if we had to pay for overnight accommodation, that sort of thing. So anything more than this, out of this, you choose what you want, do you want us to come to your lab and so forth, and we know it is much more common people asking for these facilities.

John Legard  41:18  
I think that's fascinating. Yeah, I must say, I'd like to see some of this stuff that maybe we can take some

John Hargreaves  41:24  
it's all there, the GMA vitually find banal, some of it. Elementary, some of it is really quite advanced. I'm quite proud of it. And we did a lot of filmic films as well on things like changing of the coastline. And this really, there's only one complete copy of the catalogue left, and I don't think I've got it, it's a great pity. In the end, when they decided to sell close the place down, they waited till my successor had gone on a lecture tour by request to Australia. And so the place is closing in three weeks, and appointed the manager lady that had appointed as the liquidator. And she just sold everything in double quick time really just felt I had to work terribly fast what literally all the original tapes and films are going to go in, in, you know, in the skip outside. So I really had to pull my finger out and get the archives to work and National Film Archives were very good on this. And after that, I left to age and I went to World Health organisations to write a report on how they should improve their audio visual services. I really wish it was this nice 85. And I spent a few weeks in Geneva, which I knew very well, because they've been doing a lot of work with the Mental Health Division anyway, which I haven't discussed. And I wrote the report, which was very unpopular, because it meant putting the nose as a joint of five or six tiny little units with tape recorders or computers or something. And in the end, all its recommendations were actually made operational except that it wasn't called working on the clock report. They're all done in bits and pieces. But a clever director general who knew if you let the reporter be importantly unpopular, that his provisions could be instituted one by one.

John Legard  43:14  
Michael, I think we've come to the end of our time. And thank you very much indeed. And if you want to say any more, we'll have to do it on another occasion. But I will Anjali Well,

John Hargreaves  43:24  
no The only other things I was going to talk about in brief were I'll just tell you, I wrote an IMAX film.

John Legard  43:32  
Oh, yes. Radford? No. Yeah,

John Hargreaves  43:34  
yeah, I wrote an IMAX film for Philips.

Unknown Speaker  43:39  
We've run out of time. So that's the end of the interview. But there is a possibility that we may record some more at a later date.