Gus Walker

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Gus Walker Side 1

Rodney Giesler  0:00  

This is an interview with Gus Walker, former construction manager, recorded by Rodney  Giesler On January the 20th 2000 for the BECTU oral history archive in whom the copyright of this recording is vested.

Rodney Giesler  0:26  

But Gus, can I, can I start at the beginning, really, of your life? You know, when were you born?

Gus Walker 0:32  

9.04.1913

Gus Walker  0:34  

9.04.1913

Rodney Giesler  0:37  

And what sort of family do you come from?

Gus Walker  0:40  

Well, there were seven of us. Yeah, I was, I was apprenticed as a carpenter joiner, and eventually I went through the technical college, and I qualified with city and guilds and everything to become a clerk of the works,

Gus Walker  1:02  

but I wanted to go to South Africa. And I of course, at that time, if you wanted to make money, you'd debate your way to London. There was a boom in the building industry, and

Rodney Giesler  1:18  

This was the early 30s. 

Gus Walker  1:21  

Yeah,mid 30s, and quite a lot of people were coming to London and the building industry. And I had a friend that had been at the technical school with me. He was now a charge hand for mentors that was building Denham studios. FG, Minter and I came down to join him. And of course, when I go into film, doesn't it? There was no more thought of South Africa because we were on night work, and we were living earning an excess of 11 pound a week. And that was more than professional people in 1936

Rodney Giesler  2:04  

they paid you over time. In those days, did they?

Gus Walker  2:06  

Oh, yes, the union was organized the NATTKE had they eventually opened the branch in Uxbridge, and some of the old timers that had been at British and dominions and places now British and dominions had a fire and Korda moved to Wharton Hall, and that was where they were working on “Things To Come.” That was before my time, but they were doing locations in the estate at Denham, before even they started building the studios they'd made, there was a place there where they made a part of the ghost goes west and land without music was Durant, and they had city square right down on the flat area where they built city square that and it was named that ever after for things to come. And when I was at the studio, it was still standing and the dummies were all lying about. They hadn't been cleared up. And we used to go down there to work on an old, an old first war High Albion, you know, the old style with that little cab, no cab at all. And it was a bit of a joke to run over the dummies bouncing the people that were in the back, because there was no regulations or anything. Then it was go as you please. One day, Vincent Korda decided not to go to lunch. He'd just have a lie down. He laid down in there with the dummies, and when the truck was maybe 20, 30, yards away from him, he sat up and he could have been run over, and the driver nearly lost control, and they were very careful ever after, but I don't think Vincent realized they rescued been

Rodney Giesler  4:17  

act now, can you describe you went To build Denham studios, and then you when the

Gus Walker  4:22  

studio, no, I got a job through this friend of mine. He wasn't interested in going into the picture business, but he did a good job with mentors, and he told us that they wanted people, and we go in on nights, and at that time, there was something like 500 carpenters working at Denham. It was organized chaos. There was so much happening that 11 films on the floor, and sometimes you'd set from two pictures in the same stage. And it was handicapped to a certain extent, because I didn't see it. But on St Patrick's Day, stage six caught fire, and the roof fell in. And when they rebuild it, they divided it. They realized the stages were too big, and the art directors were expanding and expanding, and they divided it, and it became six and seven. So you had four, five and six and seven were big stages, and you had three small stages, one, two and three, and the some of the sets were enormous at the time I started Rembrandt and night without harbour were the two big films Rembrandt was being made outside over the other side of the river towards Harefield, and that was known Ever After as the fish market.

Rodney Giesler  6:07  

This was on an open lot, was it? 

Gus Walker  6:08  

Yeah. So over the other side of the river, part of the estate, the estate didn't go far beyond the river anyway, and over there they had two railway engines and a set a stretcher railway line for the Russian train for night without armour, and in the early part of the war, those two trains were those two engines were picked up by Pickford and went off to North Africa, and a long time after the railway line was picked up, but it later stayed there for a long time, and so did the set for things to come. But the story of things to come was the big stage that they built at Wharton Hall a skeleton stage with for the special effects for Ned man that was later cut down and brought to Shepperton as the silent stage. It stage, but it was that much lower because they cut the stones, and so it was 50 foot high, and it was just a skeleton. They had to reinforce it. But the interesting thing about it was, it was built by Cripps, and he was a customer, so staff of Cripps, the engineering company that built it. Who isn't that man? He was a special effects man brought from America by you know they had Korda brought Americans over. The studio manager was a jack hockey an American. I never knew him, because we were on nights, and there were people there. You didn't know what they did. Someone called us. It snowballed. Korda would meet people, and they'd give them a job. They hadn't got a job. And it was, it was nearly out of control. And then there was people clocking on and clocking out and disappearing. And the whole thing was, you didn't even, sometimes you didn't make out a time sheet. They were the time sheets, and you found your work on a different picture. And the waste of material was unbelievable. People used to go and get a land of timber and cut it up to fit in their case, for firewood, and there'd no chips. You just went out and you said to the timber block number, so and so. And you put your shoulder and brought it away, not measured or anything, just guess what. And everything was wasted. Nails tipped out on the floor, and somebody tipped them out, and the next thing, as a stage hand coming along, we sweep them up and put them in the rubbish. It was it took a bit of time till they realized it couldn't go on.

Gus Walker  9:09  

And I didn't know at the time, but later, I was told Vincent was pulled up by Alexander about all this money that had been spent, and what had we got to show for it? And he said, nothing. And Alex asked why, and he blamed it all on the construction manager. He said, he's destroyed. He would not we used to see big plaster columns just pushed over and smashed he want he didn't want to use second hand stuff. Now he was the supervised art director, but he took an the pictures didn't have separate setups like they do now. They had one central drawn office under a. Very clever, Swedish, American that they'd brought. I can't recall his name. They brought, and he organized the work on every picture. He allocated draftsmen and supervised that. He was very efficient. But of course, the thing is, some of the other companies. They didn't like it. They wanted to do their own and if it wasn't a London Film or finance, but then the whole thing was a bit chaotic, and it was marvellous. The work that was done. They would go in there and strike a set and build another one ready for shooting the next morning. And I remember a set on the drum the charge hand built it the wrong way round to the layout, and they went in there on over time in the morning, and turned the whole thing around in a couple of hours. It was amazing the work it could be done. But at the time, you know, the Queen Elizabeth had been stopped, and we had a lot of shipyard joiners and people come down. There was a big Scottish element in in the studio, and on the night work, it was a Scott that was in charge, and I must say he was pro Scott.

Rodney Giesler  11:28  

When did your family come down from Scotland?

Gus Walker  11:32  

My family. I had no family,

Rodney Giesler  11:34  

no, but your father. Was he born? Were you born in Scotland?

Gus Walker  11:37  

Oh, yes, yeah. And I they, they stayed there, 

Rodney Giesler  11:41  

so you might start to look for work then,

Gus Walker  11:43  

 yeah, yeah, on my own. I was only 20, 22, I think 23 and funny thing my young brother, later, he went to South Africa after the war. Anyway, we started there on nights. And the thing is, the average tradesman was not up to the standard of some of the young people we have in the business today, because some of them had no night school technical training or anything, and they weren't sent to get education in the afternoon, like the kids are today, they go to technical school. My nephew went to Wilson, and they qualify get city and girls and things. But a lot of them, a lot of them at Denham, had no qualifications. And then, when all this money had been spent, nothing to show for it, and the company owned a fleet of pilot Fords cars and Tom Dick and Harry was going here and there and everything, and some of them taking them home, and things like that. It was, it was neat. And then they realized that, I can't remember the exact date, but then Stapleton was brought Stapleton. Stapleton, he was an efficiency gentleman from the the Prudential were the big backers of Denham, the building of it based on the success of Henry. It made it I understand that the town made 850,000 clear profit. And that was big money. Nothing with the millions to talk about today. But that was big money. 

Gus Walker  13:38  

And Korda had this studio, and they based the studios at Denham, on that big stage. They'd build Hall. So the studios the three big ones, but 250 feet long, 120 foot wide, stages, yeah, yeah. And they were, they were quite modern. They had, they had a plenum system of taking the air out, washing it and putting it back, the whole thing. And they led to tunnels along under each side of the studio. And they became their raid shelters. And I was worked there on a Sunday, on the day war was declared. And I came out, and I saw and listened to one of the first portable radios. Alexander Korda had it, and June the prey, the actress was there, and one of two others, and we went out near the powerhouse, out in the open and listened to the declaration of war. We were actually making the thief of Baghdad. I worked all the way through on that I was, by that time, I was a child hunt. And we had so many pictures that you can you remember the names of some of the others. Men are not gods. Was one of the pictures with, I think it was Elizabeth Burgener. I think it was Victor Saville. Was making it anyway. There was a there was a nice little amusing incident. First of all, Madeline Dietrich Larkin about put a piece of wood through one of the back projection screens, if there had been anybody else that had been hung and quartered. And Bergner, of course, was virtually a country woman of hers. And they used to she would come swaggering around there. And of course, she was one of the earliest women to wear trousers, Marilyn Dietrich, and she was really something in Lois days. In fact, she did a nude scene at night without armour, and they were all opened off the stage, so they all went up in the gantry. Anyway, bed net was rehearsing this, and Saville could be a very nasty gentleman cutting. And he rehearsed it and rehearsed it. And then he said, All right, this time, it's a take. And then came Madeleine Dietrich with a stick and a hat, like it was a review of some kind, and quoted the lines he nearly went, they must wasn't as serious as No. And then we made the Wilcox pictures 60 glorious years. And what was the name of the other one? Well, that was the big Victoria one. Yeah. Both were then an eagle Victoria, the great, somebody was a great, well, I worked on them. And of course, they very often didn't come in until mid day, and then they would be shooting until two and three in the morning. There was no restrictions. Then people could shoot all night, if they liked, and eventually later, not till after the war, I don't think. I think during the war, they began to restrict it because of the blackout and things. But in the early days, people used to shoot to three and four o'clock in the morning. But who used to come in late, or they got 10, or Wilcox a nano, oh, yeah, if they didn't turn up, nothing could be done. So the crew will be there early, doing nothing. Oh yes, well no, but if they weren't late the next they didn't come in early the next morning, there was still there was a, I think it was 10 hours off the clock, so when they finished it free, they weren't due back into 10 hours later. I think it was 10 hours, but that there was that carry on. And of course, sometimes you had artists that didn't turn up until late and nothing could be done. And if they were big enough and important enough, they got away with it, and

Rodney Giesler  18:24  

you were there, then all through the water. No,

Gus Walker  18:27  

I was called up and I worked on the I was working on my life with death at Cardinal blimp.

Gus Walker  18:40  

And I was, I became a supervisor in 41 and I was in charge of building the destroyer for in which we serve. And I stood by on that all the way through when we had the explosion and there was a man killed.

Rodney Giesler  18:59  

What was

Gus Walker  19:00  

that? Special effects for the gunfire? And he was the chief electrician, Jock Dymore. They were putting stuff in old film tunes, and apparently one hadn't cooled, or there was something in it. And when they put it in, there was just a flash, and the others all went with it, and he fell off the gun deck onto the lower deck and onto the floor. And there was two or three others, two or three others burnt on the face and the hands and things. But they were well one, I'm sure it affected his health for the rest of his life. But that that happened on which we serve. I was standing there with David Ronsley. Ronsley was one of the leading art directors then, and we immediately went. Up to the bar and had a brace.

Rodney Giesler  20:04  

So you were involved in the tank shops as well. Were you where they were all on the Carly float? Yes,

Gus Walker  20:08  

I must say, I had great admiration for Noel Coward. He was in that water with all the oil and stuff. And of course, another man paid great credit to him, David Lean, because he learned a lot from that. Was leans first picture. He was a co director. He'd been a co director on I was with him down in Denton when we made major Barbara. He was up working with Gabby Pascal. That was 1940 we were down there at the time of Dunkirk, and some reason, there was a hold up. They went back, and we stayed down there waiting on the unit coming back again, and that was the first time I had worked. I'd seen him before, but we Freddie young came down there to take over for a week. Well, they got another camera man, because they got rid of borodiel, he was the camera man, and he told them he couldn't do the things they wanted with a small generator. And they said, well, they'll shoot it. And of course, they shot it when we went to the theatre, you couldn't see it. That was awesome. Yeah, he's a Canadian camera man. They brought him from Hollywood. I think there was other people. There was a director called Cornwall or something. I think he was an American, but it all changed.

Rodney Giesler  21:58  

Cofield.

Gus Walker  22:01  

I think his name was Cornwall, yeah, or Corwell, something like that. He was a gentleman. He was an American, and he always wore a hat, and he had a bristly moustache. He he was not too comfortable with the Vincent interfering and everything, but that wouldn't deter Vincent. He he was accused. He spoke very little English in the early days and in the continental habit, he'd just walk in the ladies toilets. But he gradually, he got locked in the toilet one day, and he had a telephone put in because he nobody heard him. He couldn't get out. But he was, he was a bit of an odd lad, but the other one, so, I mean, we made those pictures, the drum, elephant boy, and what was the other one we made with a ship down on the down by the river and city square, another one that the lion has wings or No, although I worked on that, that was the old propaganda, and I did a bit on I'd left. I'd gone in the army by the time they made the one about the Spitfire, first of the few, first of the few. But I saw sets for it when I used to go in on when I was on leave, I still used to go, until I went overseas.

Rodney Giesler  23:45  

I did you go on many locations on these, certainly before the war and so on. I mean,

Gus Walker  23:50  

oh, they sent people on location for Four Feathers. It took them five weeks to get they went by boat the Mediterranean through the surge, and then took the train up through what was Abyssinia, then, or somewhere, Erwin trio, somewhere to reach on the manor to get to the Sudan. You didn't go on that? No, no, but I knew the stills camera man was a friend of mine. His name was Evans. He went on it, and by the time they got back, the picture was nearly finished, because they sent the stuff back, and then they took something like, I suppose, four or five weeks to get home again. That was something technical, wasn't it? I wouldn't be sure. Now I know that always surprised me how the decision had to be made because a cost between black and white and colour in the old days when they had the big camera. From Technicolour, and you had people from Technicolour, and you had to have a colour consultant. What was the name of the famous one? Nathan Thomas, yes, he was around. Yes, they that was, I didn't know much about this till after the war, when I became the assistant construction manager, and I was concerned with the budgets, and heard and sat in on the meetings and things, and I didn't realize that it was touch and go sometimes, whether a thing would be made in black and white or colour, and even if it would be made at all. But I didn't know just exactly how much difference the colour made to the costs. Added a lot to the lighting costs. But what else is the processing and everything? I don't know, but I know that there used to be a lot of haggling about it, whether it would be black, white or colour. In fact, some of them were part just scenes in colour. There was a several pictures there were made South Riding. And there was a little picture there made on the cheap by carders. In other words, people worked when it booked on something else, and it was vivid and Lee, and it was a thing with dogs in it. I got the name of it from Roni. I rang Roy Udell and asked him, and he looked it up. And I think she looked the most beautiful in that that she ever did in the film. In that little picture, I can't think the name of it. It was a I saw it on television. Who

Rodney Giesler  26:41  

else was in it with her? Do you remember?

Gus Walker  26:42  

Oh, I can't remember. I could tell you a bit. You better not record about her.

Gus Walker  26:51  

When she was on season Cleopatra, she was called in one day, and nobody came together. She was all made up, waiting and waiting, and she came down, and a few well chosen words said about Pasco. And Pasco said, it has nothing to do with me. Listen, Lee, it's the first assistant. She said, where is it? And she said, I'll find them. So she went down the road, and she met Blue Hill, and she said, Are you the first assistant? He said, Yes, Miss Lee. She said, George, so and so and so I'm looking for and tore him to pieces. She said, Never again. Will you call me when I'm not wanted? And poor old bluey got the full burst of

Rodney Giesler  27:46  

it. That wasn't a very happy picture, was it? I don't know. I

Gus Walker  27:51  

only saw bits when I was in on leave. I didn't I didn't see it being made. I was in the army. By that time I left. I worked on, I was on which we serve for a long, long time. And then I think the last film I worked on was the life and death of Cardinal blink. I remember Deborah coward of 21st birthday on that we put up church doors and made a big cake and plaster. Because of the rationing, you couldn't get anything. And she had her 21st birthday. I saw her again in Spain. She came to see Sam Spiegel when we were making Nicholas and Alexander. That was the last time I saw Deborah, but Bridget worked with her on that film they made with her and Robert Mitchell. So reunion thing for television. Bridget. We know the name of it. I don't it was not long before she packed it. Yeah, yes. So you

Rodney Giesler  29:03  

were in the army for the rest of the war,

Gus Walker  29:06  

and then I went back to Denham, and beginning of 40 then the 46 my leave expired on the 31st of December. 46 we were held over because I was involved that I was in the artillery, but we had West African labour group carriers, because the lots of the small guns were taken to pieces the old 18 pounders and that. But they were very little use. But they were, they were ox groups, and the act of the Indians were really concerned about foreign troops being there. They wanted them out. And the Labor government wanted to get a British Army home. And there was a problem with shipping. Eventually we sailed from. And Goa the port there, we sailed for there, for West Africa, but they wanted to get the West that they were afraid they might be used. And of course, it was leading up to the partition coming up. The funny thing was, I knew mount man on in which we serve, and of course, he was the king pin in South East Asia. But I never saw him. But when I did Orient Express John Bray born, I said. He said, Well, if you want to speak to the old man, go and talk to him, he said. So I went up and I spoke to him about not about the war. I spoke to him about the people that had been one in which we serve, and there was a reunion coming up. So he told me about it, and he said that he he would send for some of the people. The thing is that he was a quite a different man. Then he'd aged. He was, he wasn't the man. He was on which we served when, you know, when he came in, on which we serve, the sailors we had on. The picture and used to lie in both sides of the door for him to walk down. Oh, he was, did all the respect of all the

Rodney Giesler  31:27  

a lot of the extras were serving sailors Well,

Gus Walker  31:31  

the sellers, most of them were some sick leave. People are that the but the young one, that was his, I don't know, I suppose if it was a Bucha that what he was, he'd been very badly burned on when the Kelly was sunk and he was taken to Egypt. And the story is, whether it's true or not, Mount ban paid for Jewish specialists to come from Israel to look after him, and he made an amazing recovery, but he always had, but he didn't show a great he wasn't nearly as bad as that young man from the Falklands, But he'd recovered, and then he was looked after. But his his navy days had finished, but he was, I asked about him, and he said, Oh yes, he's coming to the reunion. So he must he was still alive, but he used to come regular to Denham on visits, and that's at the time, I think he was with the combined ops, and he always got a great reception from from the Naval people. And he had a habit, I don't know if it was deliberate, but he would ignore the high ranking officers, virtually just returned their salute, and he would talk to the men. I never saw him spend much time talking to the army officers that were we see, we used Irish Guards. They were there, and they were stationed at Northwood. You know, where Northwood is, and Denham, they used to march the denim the early hours

Rodney Giesler  33:28  

put on label uniforms, no no army

Gus Walker  33:31  

being embarked, and Dunkirk and things like that. And we had the gangway break, and one or two quite injured coming up the side. You know, they were all marching together, and the vibration and the thing snapped, there was an inquiry into it,

Rodney Giesler  33:48  

because in which we serve was quite an important film, because it was one of the first really important war films. And I think the King and Queen visited the set on one or two things,

Gus Walker  33:59  

the Queen Mother, yeah, and the present Queen and her sister. And, you know, Noel Coward would lean on the arm of the chair talking to the Queen Mother, and said was about brother and sister, and he used to go round, arm in arm with the Duke of Kent. And what's her name, Marina used to come there, Princess Marina, but the two girls, they came there very often. And the queen mother was a fairly regular attender. Not, I don't think so much the king, but he was there. He was very fortunate. They made it. We made the guns in the pattern shop, and the front section was a casting and it was loaded in the muzzle, and they wanted to demonstrate it to the king, and the king said, I've seen and heard. Have enough gunfire, we wouldn't. When they tested it, they blew it to pieces, if you'd have been there. It was a lucky stroke that they didn't because they put in far too heavy a charge, and the aluminium shattered. And unfortunately, there was no spectators. There was damage done to one or two of the windows and things. But if he'd have been there, you don't know what might have happened, because the

Rodney Giesler  35:31  

king had been a Jutland, didn't me, the king had fought a Jutland?

Gus Walker  35:34  

Oh, I don't know. Well, of course, we were in the midst of back act going off all night long. I mean, it was 41 but blitz had been on. He said he had seen enough and heard enough gunfire. Thanks very much. And he walked off just as well he did.

Rodney Giesler  35:54  

David Lean was credited as co director on that, but he was behind the camera all the time, effectively, directing, wasn't

Gus Walker  36:01  

he, when it came to the actors the action that was coward, coward. You know, he was a good judge of acting. And of course, when he was in a scene with somebody else, he was virtually the scene was being done the way he wanted it. And of course, David Lean had been a co director under Pascal on major Barbara, but that was just a case of agreeing with Pascal. The only blogger didn't agree with Pascal was Freddie Young. Freddie. Freddie said that that's as good a shot as you'll get. Not we should go again business. But Harold French was there. I think he lived to be 100 he did, yeah, he died fairly recently, yeah? Well, the two of them were there, but Pasco was doing the directing. But of course, David was able to advise on the cutting, because he was going to cut it later. I don't know what Harold French did later, but I was there until we wrapped up. In fact, I went to Turkey on holiday this year, 59 years later, I got a taxi, and you could go into the estate if you were in a taxi, but you would need a pass as a private car, so I had to drive around the estate. Not that I remember what the state says. Dartington Hall, oh, yeah, at the time I was there, it was owned by the Whitney straight widow, but now it's a trust.

Rodney Giesler  37:48  

It was what was shot a film that Dartington Hall,

Gus Walker  37:51  

major Barbara. Oh, major Barbara. They had an oak mere theatre. And when I was when we were there, the juice through this valley, was evacuated to down there, and we had the use of the any part of the estate, virtually. And I don't remember it much in the picture. But of course, the picture called for roads and lawns and everything, and John Brown was the the chief. He was, suppose he was the chief designer. But of course, Vincent had a say, and Vincent, Vincent and Pasco, of course, were fellow countryman and he but the next time I worked with David Lean was on “In Which We Serve”, because and then he made all those other things by spirit, brief encounter, one or two others that were being made. But this time it was John, Brian, Ronnie Neame and David were the three people in the setup, and they made, I think they were two city films. I don't know. They called themselves silly girl, didn't they? Yeah. Silly girl, yeah. But I don't know whether it was the rank group.

Rodney Giesler  39:19  

Well, the producer there was Filippo di judici, wasn't it? Yeah,

Gus Walker  39:23  

yeah. Well, he was, he was something films, wasn't he? Two cities, films, two Syd, yeah.

Rodney Giesler  39:34  

Can you tell me a bit about the “The Life and Death of Colonel Blimp? I mean, there were some marvellous sets in that film. Oh, yeah,

Gus Walker  39:39  

as well. That was younger, yeah, yeah. Well, Alfred, there was nothing about the business. He didn't know. He had it all worked out. I worked for him on other occasions, and I had always a great admiration for him, because he worked with Ken. Camera angles. There was no in fact, he would he could come on the set and say, you put the camera here. He had it. I remember one incident they said about the set, the set wasn't high enough, and everything else. And Alfred came on and lifted the Carpe, and there was a mark on the floor, and that was where the camera was. And when the camera was there, it was adequately covered for shooting. Oh, he was a super efficient he had a son, came and worked at Denham, but I don't think he stayed in the business. He was a university boy, and he came there on the on the vacation.

Rodney Giesler  40:46  

Alfred younger was a German refugee again, wasn't he, yes,

Gus Walker  40:49  

yeah, he'd been, always said he'd been a submarine command where there was any truth, but he was at Shepherds  Bush before he ever came to Denham. But of course, he came to Denham. I don't know if it worked in America, but he came to Denham and worked when MGM came there. Now they that was picture make brought to efficiency. I The scripts were the finished picture was within a minute or two, and when you read the script, you could see the picture. And there was no changing it. There was no director said, Oh, I'll do this or not. They had to do that exactly, and if they didn't get the time, there'd be a cable come from America asking what the hold up was. And one of the pictures that changed the director two, three times, which was that one. I think it was on Mr. Chips. I saw a thing on Mr. Chips that I couldn't imagine happening with British the death scene the left. The left a little bit. There was I and the director, I think was Robert Wise. He was the one that had, you know, of course, things were difficult then, because people had to go in America and back by boat, and anybody coming over had to come by boat. There was no quick way. And they left us up. And he would come in in the morning, and he would say to Don it. Do you feel you can do it today, Robert? And if he thought, said, yes, they would try that scene. And they kept on there until they got the way they wanted it. Just like one scene, yeah, just the bed and a little bit of set was left up, lit ready. You could just switch on and you were there to take the death scene and that, that was one of the last American ones. The other one we were working on, Busman Honeyman. That was Robert Montgomery. That was stopped at the time of the crisis, 1938 when the crisis came up and all Americans, Americans were told to come back, to go back home, so they all left, but they came back later. I don't know if it was after the war had started, before America came into the war. They came back and finished that picture. It was MGM’s, and they made the Yank at Oxford. Now on the Yank at Oxford, there was athletics, and one of the fellows that ran, they got some university athletes to come down to that sports ground at Denham village. And when I was working with Robert Taylor and a picture of East Africa, I was borrowing stuff from the post office and the cable company, telegraph poles and things, and this fellow said to me, he said, Is that the same Robert Taylor that was in the Yankton Oxford? I said, Yes. Oh. He said, I had to slow down to let him beat me. He said I was the 400 the university 400 meter champion at that time. So I said to Taylor, I said one of the men that run against him, the anchor docks, was the manager of the post office. He said, get him to come up here. He said, I'd love to talk to him, but he was his health was failing. Then he didn't look he was a he was a Greek god. And the early days my god.

End of Side 1

Side 2

Gus Walker  0:00  

Arthur J Rank was coming to, he was coming to the opening. Opening of the stills department had been made up. It was on the end of one of the big stages. Teddy Woods was in charge of the stills department. And it was a bit of a scramble, and the paint was wet. It was close to the finish. And rank had the most beautiful sports jacket on and across the Kings Ransom, I should think. And he got the paint from it. And the foreman, plumber was a great big group called loft, loft. He said them, well, you won't be able to wear that again, Governor, you might as well let me have it. And rank said, Yes, and you shall have it. And the chief engineer said, reprimand the plumber. He said, You can't talk to the governor like that. He said, Well, yes, I can. And he got the jacket, and it was a nice fit for him, because rank was a big man.

Rodney Giesler  0:59  

Oh, yes. What were you going to tell me about fredzell?

Gus Walker  1:02  

Oh, I like Fred. I worked with him fast on sundowners. He was a man that knew exactly what he wanted. And then I worked with him on that picture with a fonder. He came to Elstee to make that Carmen Dillon was on it under an American called Callahan Callaghan. But it didn't all go too smooth, but Fred, I saw him since several times, since when I missed his funeral. He was hoping to be 90, but he just didn't make it. But he was, he was, you could go and ask him, and you knew what was wanted.

Rodney Giesler  1:57  

Can you tell me some of the production designers and art directors you work with and what they were like. And I like stories. No,

Gus Walker  2:06  

I would say the top designer I ever worked with was Roger Furse. Roger could put it on paper. You know, he did some marvelous sets for the Prince and the Show Girl, and he, he was the sort of the designer that handed over to the art director, and he didn't interfere a lot. He liked to have a say on the colors and things like that, but because he was Slade a Slade, student, I'll tell you one story about them. And this is true. His father was a Brigadier, a regular army man, and ages a contemporary a church house, and during the war, he could go and see Churchill just the same as he'd call in the local pub. If he went to see Churchill, he could see him as this rock affairs himself. Noel Rogers Powell. He was a brigadier and Lord. Roger had spent some time in Scotland as an Army boy with his father in command and up in the highlands, and one day, Churchill said to Rogers father, your son's a Bit of a painter. And Churchill had written a book about painting, and he signed it and gave it to Rogers Fowler. He said, you know, boys a bit of a painter, give them that. And Roger went round the corner as soon as he got it and sold it and bought a large bottle of brandy. So, he lived in teeny please. He was very talented. He worked on Spartacus and on the American system he just produced the design he was finished. He couldn't go on and see it or interfere with it. And he had three or four different art directors. He said they were pushing one another out of the way to get a hold of the drone. And I said, Remember that picture Kubrick took over. So I said to Roger, the next time I was working with him, I said I'd been working with Kubrick on 2001 I said this, Roger, how'd you get on with Kubrick on Spartacus? He said, I never spoke to him. He said, I never even knew him. He said, I just handed over. He said, Once I'd done the designs, I was finished. Mm. He said, I just, just came home, yeah, but he was very talented with it. I mean, he was responsible for all the Olivier pictures, Hamlet, I was gonna say the Hamlet and Henry Five. He was, he I would say he was the best designer in the country, but he, I don't think he was concerned to make a name for himself. You know, I don't think he was going to go out his way and to, in fact, he got up early and retired to one of the Greek islands. He died out there. 

Rodney Giesler  5:48  

Did you work on Hamlet? 

Gus Walker  5:50  

Yes, it was made at Denham. Yeah.

Rodney Giesler  5:52  

Now that was an incredible film, because it was all lit for deep focus, wasn't it?

Gus Walker  5:56  

Yes. Who was the camera man? 

Rodney Giesler  6:01  

Desmond Dickinson. 

Gus Walker  6:03  

Desmond and I got them gone now too. The last one I worked with was Jeff Unsworth, and he went not long after Orient Express. But there was L P Williams, designer for Wilcox. He did both "Victoria, the Great and 60 Glorious Years he'd been to America with Wilcox. He was one of the few English art directors that had got in you know, people didn't realize how difficult it was for an English designer to break into Hollywood. Tom Morahan was trying hard on So Evil, my Love to keep on the right side of Hal Wallis so as he would put them up for getting into the Art Directors Guild, he'd be he'd done a picture out there for Hitchcock. What was it? Cerebral, my love was the one at Denham. I think anyway, he was hoping to break into get into America. He was a very talented art director, Tom. He did Treasure Island for Disney, and Disney himself. We built the Bristol harbor, and we had the Manning brothers as scenic artists, the tiles and everything were painted. I had to get a ladder and hold it so as Walt could go up and see them, that they were painted. He wasn't prepared to believe it, and he satisfied himself by going up the ladder and having a look. That was one of the most beautiful sets. Tom Warner and Tom used to have a sketch, and he had a pin hole, and you looked through the sketch, and if the set had been built right, it all fitted on to that sketch. He was the only one that I ever saw do this as thorough, even though younger had this principle too, but Tom had it. And of course, Tom was a modeler, a modeler, to start with. His brother was a modeler, and his father was a modeler, and he was reputed to have made one big mistake. Once he said, if he'd have been a Hungarian, he would have been at the top because of the quarters. But he he spoiled himself. He wouldn't when they did it, when they came with the next Disney picture, he made a prohibitive charge increase in his salary, and they weren't prepared to pay it. In fact, they gave him an open because he he had upset them. He one day, Tom said, if the picture was as good as the art direction, they'd have a bloody good picture. And this was said in front of Walt, the American manager and the camera man, and it didn't go down too well, but he was like that. But he had talent. There was no doubt about that. He made in Treasure Island, they wouldn't believe that had been made in England by the matt shots put in by Ellen Shaw, by whom Peter Alan Shaw, he was a stepson of pop, a day that had pioneered it. And Ellen Shaw, of course, went to America. With Disney,

Rodney Giesler  10:05  

I tell -  You said you worked on "2001"

Gus Walker  10:08  

Yes, I did the Deham and then Shepperton end of it. The silent stagewith black velvet for backings. You wouldn't have a painted backing Stanley. And I had to get the sand dyed black. I found a company in Kent that could dye sand. We got black sand. Of course, it was very difficult. As it dried out, it started to get lighter. Sometimes it was finished up with sprayed with black paint. 

Rodney Giesler  10:43  

Were those are spaceship scenes at Denham as well.

Gus Walker  10:46  

 No, no. It was confined to the bit about the how they'd make that section and perspex black and all this and that we didn't, we didn't touch that. We had this big open bit with the black sand and black velvet.

Rodney Giesler  11:08  

Was this the prehistoric scene where they throw the bone up.

Gus Walker  11:12  

The actual building, and we had Hoovers, no, not the Hoover, but a commercial vacuum, and we had to clean the black velvet every morning. He was a sticker Stanley. I can't remember any. He wanted me to go to Elstee with them, but I'd already agreed to do another picture. 

Rodney Giesler  11:35  

Who was the production designer on that? 

Gus Walker  11:36  

Was it Tony masters. He was very talented. I'll tell you a story about him. When we were on Heroes at Telemark, before it stopped, we'd done the locations and preparation and been to Norway, and then they hadn't enough money, and we'd all become home, and by that time I'd gone out to work on Dr survival and masters Tony man was the man that had been doing all the big pictures in Madrid for bronsons, who follow the Roman Empire and things like that. And they had two designers that used to walk up and color Santee and Moore. They, they did those wispy sketches, and Tony man. He, like a lot of American directors, they always like needling people and getting in, and he said to Tony masters, why don't you do some sketches like collar and whatever he called the two of them, but it was color Santee and Moore. And Tony masters went home, and he came back the next morning, and he put up three sketches that could have been done by Colossians. Don't be the gas per head. Whisper, oh, and it was you couldn't at all. They hadn't done them. He took the took the window, Attorney man, when he showed nothing to say, Oh, no. Masters was quite gifted.

Rodney Giesler  13:23  

Can I go back a bit now to the point where you came back into the business after the war? Yes, you went back to Denham. Did,

Gus Walker  13:28  

yes, my job was guaranteed. I'd been promoted in my absence. I was I was now the assistant construction manager and a very clever man that had been there from the start bill so he had come with corridors from British and dominion and from Wharton Hall, and he was promoted to Chief construction manager. Any bit of noise on the microphone there was the one, sorry. Thank you. The had been promoted to, that was the start of construction managers, because prior to that, the master carpenter was the man in charge, and Bill. So the most of the people in charge are people that came from the British and dominions. And at one time, you could hardly be promoted unless you worked at the British and dominions. But the British and dominions was the age when they were still using the Canvas flats and things almost theatrical style. Well, that changed when Denham was one of the first to lead the change into different solid flats and things, and I came back and I went in there as assistant, and at that time we. Were making October man and another picture. I forget the name of it. The designer was, what was his name, an old friend of mine.

Rodney Giesler  15:17  

Was this on October

Gus Walker  15:20  

man? Or there was another one that was something to do with Ramsay MacDonald, wasn't it? Famous? Yeah, famous. The spur in October. Man, the bolting brothers, wasn't it? Yeah. And what was his name? The designer. I knew him quite well. They were, they were being made. And, of course, most of the pictures then were the Rank Group we had, we made. I remember we made Johnny Mills and Mr. Polly, things like that, and Duncan Sutherland. Yeah, he was a designer on that Duncan Sutherland, he was later at the Rock studios with what she's named, the TV people. You know, Fairbanks. Oh, doctors, Fairbank. Fairbanks. Fairbanks had been at Wharton Hall, and he changed over. Bruce came back then, and we made a nice picture, crashed that concrete with Eddie dimitrik. I was very impressed with Dimitri. They always said he had a built in frame, and his forehead, he knew exactly he could cut. The thing didn't need cutting. It just fitted together. They always claimed that for him, that was when he was in trouble with Hollywood. He was one of the McCarthy, McCarthy people, but I quite liked him, what I saw and he we made that picture there.

Rodney Giesler  17:10  

He was quite good. He's only just died recently, yeah?

Gus Walker  17:14  

So well, they're all Goon. He

Rodney Giesler  17:16  

was a great friend of LP Williams as well. Yeah, yeah. I

Gus Walker  17:19  

always liked his films. I was, I was very pleased to get the chance to work with him and meet him, because he was one of the best, and he was, he know he'd been on, he'd been on SHA as a colonel with Eisenhower, and yet, here he was under suspicion. I couldn't make it out that McCarthy is in business. Now,

Rodney Giesler  17:49  

you mentioned a little while back that you've done some work on the Matter Of life And Death, yes, with Micky Powell, 

Gus Walker  17:55  

yes, not a lot, becausethe picture, I can't remember what happened? But the picture was finished at Pinewood. But

Rodney Giesler  18:05  

the great staircase was built at Pinewood, was it?

Gus Walker  18:07  

I'm not sure. I think I know. I think it was built at Denham. I could. I was never clear on that when it moved. I think what I saw of it was when I was on leave, not after I'd started back to work. I went into the studio maybe three months before I'd be there, but I didn't start back till December, 46 Well, I started a week or two earlier. I could do with the money, and I was there, worked on Treasure Island, and then we made Robin Hood for Disney, and I don't know, then we moved to Pinewood, and we made Another Disney picture there, and then I moved to ABC with Disney, I became a freelance and I worked on what was the picture we made? Made a picture at ABC. It was ABC, then the studios

Rodney Giesler  19:20  

who directed it, who was in it?

Gus Walker  19:24  

I'm not sure if it was Ken Anakin. It was, it was for Disney. I think Anakin directed some of that. Was that?

Rodney Giesler  19:34  

Chitty Chitty, Bang Bang.

Gus Walker  19:35  

 Rob Roy. 

Rodney Giesler  19:35  

Rob Roy,

Gus Walker  19:36  

yeah, it was Rob Roy. Alec Bryce was the direct the second director of the second unit. Always remember that I think, I think it may have been Anakin I don't know.

Rodney Giesler  19:53  

What can you remember as challenges in your particular business and. Oh, the problems, problems settled yes on and how you got around them. Oh, one

Gus Walker  20:05  

of the biggest things was making the big head for the Thief of Baghdad. That was from the floor to the gantry. In fact, going up to have a look at it. The French camera man, Georges perineum turned blue. He virtually had a heart attack. He didn't go back up again. That was then we made the big foot. That was something new, the hand and the foot an enormous size. I worked on some of the special effects there with Lawrence Butler for and Rex Ingram, the genie in the bottle, the blue Matt stuff that. But the, oh, the biggest challenge, I didn't think was that airplane for no highway. We converted, we converted a Halifax bomber that had been on the Berlin run. And when we went down to black Bush, it was a Chinese American colonel within Charles there at an ex Colonel. We got this Halifax, and built the plane round it. And that was quite a problem, but it was quite successful. The thing was that they, who was it, made the Halifax de Havilland page, Handley Page, they said, if it showed through any sign of it, they would sue them. So, you know, they had distinctive casing on the legs. We had to design something to hide that. And it worked all right. That was it. But all the biggest problems of the whole time I was in the business was Moby Dick. We were things that went wrong. I mean, we the ship was built at hull and the ministry, you know, they'd been one or two disasters, and they were very strict. And of course, they they applied for a passenger license. And then, of course, they had to be restricted to the distance you could go out. And there was all sorts of regulations cropped up. Anyway, the ministry decided to test the hull by born a series of holes and taking out the wood samples. Of course, nobody plugged them by the time the ship was on its way to Ireland, the water was pouring in through the holes, and I had to be flown back to I was flown to Bristol to go to Plymouth and get the ship in. And the ship had to come into the dry dock. And then we found out what was happening. There was an inner and outer casing, and the hull was bored, but the inside was hiding it. And we eventually found that's where all the water was pouring in, and we it was a small world. My brother in law was the head of the boom defense that reside Dockyard and Willoughby, the broken charge, had worked under my brother in law, so he was immediately very helpful. And there was another end to that story. When I was working Tripoli, we had a very clever Arab work with our interpreter. And I said, Where did you learn to speak English? He said, I went to Dunfermline High School. And he fell over. I said. He said, Yes. He said, My father was working in the Rose Willoughby was his stepfather. And I can't remember his name. You he was a real operator. He was such

Rodney Giesler  24:27  

you were in Tripoli. What was on vacation? On this? Yeah, on maybe,

Gus Walker  24:31  

no, we were working on no time did I were Victor, mature, yeah. And he was on the picture. He was a bit of a politician. His father was Emer, or assault of the Arabs there. He was quite a powerful and of course, there was all this going on about King Idris and everything. There was a lot of scheming, and he was part of it. And I said to them. And then he told me, Well, when I took no shipping and movie dick, that was his stepfather, Willoughby, and his mother was an Egyptian princess, and I just saw her, and I put two and two together, and that was Ali's family. I didn't inquire about Alan, but she was divorced, and then she married this English he was a naval officer before he got on to the where he was

Rodney Giesler  25:32  

on Moby Dick, did you have a lot of problems with the whale itself?

Gus Walker  25:35  

Yeah, well, we had a whale. We went down to Fishguard. First of all, we went over to you in Ireland, and that was supposed to be the port. And of course, the water wasn't deep enough for the ship, so we had to get drag lines and things to start taking all the silt and everything out the harbor. Eventually, we got the boat in there, but it was always a drama, everything. And we got that. And then the boat had to after it had been used. It had to be brought to back. It was brought back to the docks and left and the docks at Cardiff. But there was all sorts of dramas with it. The masks, we had to get new masks on twice. The top masks were carried away. You see, the thing is, they wanted to get something that was impressive. Never mind the damage. Houston was like that. And of course, they could have been better. The boat didn't handle as it might have done anyway. The result was that we didn't get enough in, and the winter was coming on, so it was decided we'd go to Las Palmas. In the meantime, the quail proved to be too big and too powerful for the tug we had, and they had to let it go. And after all the months of making it, it was all smashed to pieces in the rocks and over across in Pembroke show and what was it Michael, it was tubular scavel and oil drums to give it flotation, and then it was covered with wooden ribs, and then it was covered With expanded metal. And then it was rubber latex. Skimmed on light plaster

Rodney Giesler  27:46  

and and you and you built it in a workshop on shore somewhere. Did you? Yes, we

Gus Walker  27:50  

built it in a slipway and launched it down into the harbor at Fish guard. And of course, that that was a really, there was no prospect of starting again. So we set off to Los Palmas. When we got to Los Palmas, we found a lighter, and we'd built it on there with angle iron. They knew a tube like we built it with angle iron and wood. And we flew out the latex and we got the expanded metal and stuff brought out by the old big sea planes Sunderland. They flew to Lisbon and then flew on to Las Palmas. They took some of the crew out on on Sunderland. I flew to Madrid, and then from Madrid to to Las Palmas. And there was a Scott engineer, naval man, an ex naval commander in charge of the yard there. His name was anyway, it doesn't matter he he was in charge. It was the bland in the bankers and people owned the shipyard, and the harbor was so oil skim on it that went the first time we put the whaling boats down, they all picked up the color and got a line right across them. So we had to have davits put on to this ship that we'd hired. So as the boats could only be lowered in the water once they were out the harbor, that was just another snag. Anyway, we got the wheel made, and it was bigger than ever because it were starting off with the size of the lighter. We launched it, and there was a split. And. Bottom of the lighter. So it was no sooner than the water than we were saved by the Spanish foreman of the yard that he maybe called himself the manager, I don't know, but on the access to the line to the lighter, like there was a the top was closed in, but there was two access places about maybe three foot square. He said to me, you must never put that in the water without this being filled with concrete. So he did a bit of shattering job, and he filled the open with concrete and the other one. And if they hadn't been closed, the whole thing would have sent Jessica had enough buoyancy for us to get it back up, and they got it back up, and they reinforced where it was split. And then it worked. All right. It went on there. But all they wanted, but the trouble, the real trouble on Bobby Dick was the models. They had no success with them over a period of months. There was nothing that was successful. And I was brought there was a cable come for me to return soonest. So when I came back, I was given a free hand. The American said to me, if anything up to 1000 pound a day will improve what's happened here, you have my authority to use it, get anything you want or do anything you think it will improve it? And the wheel had never been on a track. And we, we got a new I got people that bent six by three channel, and we got tracks made with the humps in them and and they had never had anything. It was fixed to the floor. And we I got a story over show you the mentality. I ordered two compressed air jewels for boarding the holes for row books to go on in the concrete. The first thing they said to me, are you drilling those holes so deep you're letting the water out? That was the idea. The boats were about two and a half inches. This was the old Associated British people. So out of the two compressed air drills from legs the builders and there were 35 bubble wheat. So when they arrived, there was only one. So I rang up the manager, and I said, What happened about he said, Well, he said, we thought you could manage with one, I said, for 35 bubble wheat. I said, I'll tell you what I'll do. I'll order four. You cancel two, and we'll both be happy. So he The next thing is, another drill turned up, and the American that was in charge, he couldn't believe it. So anyway, we got on with that, and I was there. We got the wheel work. The whole thing was changed with an American Special Effects man called Lawman. He designed a little whale cost of fortune, you know, the water. And if you scale the thing down too far, you can't use it, you know, there's a minimum that to the size, about a fifth full about a fifth full size for anything in water. And if you can make it bigger, so much the better. Anyway, he was there, and we had this elaborate little whale made. And the first dem it was used was being made with aluminum and stuff instead of steel when it just folded up. So we had to rely on the one. There was a whale there made by a company called City something, city display, one of the firms, and they'd made this wheel, and they hadn't been successful in operating it because they hadn't a lubrication system. I introduced the drip system into it that worked. They had a vast tube to exhaust the air from the operating and we eliminated that by getting those little weak return, like on a diving just spring open valve, yeah, and we got them fitted. And the thing that had never been checked, and I couldn't believe they had the batteries. It was battery operated. Nobody checked what they were getting at the far end of this cable. They only said, Oh, well, there's so many volts there. I said, what we're getting at the other end? We had to double them, and the cable was leaving. We had the RE blazer that got a multi core cable that was completely unnecessary. We got down to virtually rubber covered twin, and we've got the thing working. And we were able to vent it by putting little gauzes, metal gauze in light warts all over and the air. Prior to that, when the exhaust didn't work, the whale blew up. And anyway, we've got over it. And eventually it worked all right, until the usual disaster. Did a new hydraulic, and somebody hadn't tightened it, and the hydraulic oil poured into the tank, that had meant the tank had to be cleaned out and all the water pumped away. Did you? Did

Rodney Giesler  36:12  

you ever use the full scale? Well or not? Was in the final film? Oh yes, yeah. So it was a combination of the full scales and the models, oh, yes, yeah, the

Gus Walker  36:23  

full size wheel. We had a section. I made that section in Las Palmas, where Peck was in with his one leg inside, and it went over and came back. But of course, Peck didn't mind. He was a very powerful swimmer, and he wasn't the least nervous in the Warner, but we had that it was on an axle on the side of the barge, and it rolled over, and then it came back up. Yes. Peck didn't like that picture. I spoke to him about it years after, he said, I'm trying to forget it.

Rodney Giesler  37:07  

What other challenges have you had to overcome in your

Gus Walker  37:10  

Oh, the we had the trains when we were doing Orient Express, you couldn't make the stuff to match the standard of that, not without months of preparation. But if you know the wagon Lee people, you can go and borrow it. And you could buy you can borrow the lilac likes, mirrors, things. You get everything. And when we did Orient Express, we got all the stuff from wagon Lee, in fact,

Rodney Giesler  37:45  

can I transfer your mug on here and remove that?

Gus Walker  37:50  

He they said, Man, over with it the first time, the first time I'd borrowed it. We got all the bits from them, but I previously had, you know, wagon Lee. They ran as far as Madrid, and I got borrowed stuff in Madrid when we were making Travels with my Aunt. And I knew from then that we would get, we would get the permission if they went the right way about it. And we got all the stuff for Orient Express, and it worked quite well. You couldn't make some of the paneling and stuff unless you had you need to have months of preparation. But the picture went down quite well. That was John Bray born. That's when I saw when Mountbatten came to oh yes, look at the film. Yeah. I find Braeburn very easy to work with. I had worked with Richard Green before. Green he was a sort of partner of John Bray born, but I don't know what they're doing now. I don't think Braeburn is doing anything so, but green, he was on a picture in the Caribbean or something. I don't know what it was. Yes. Now

Rodney Giesler  39:32  

you when did you first work with John box? Was that travels of my

Gus Walker  39:35  

aunt? Oh, no, no, no. I worked with books on the Warwick films, macabre broccoli and Erwin Alan. We in that no time to die was the

Gus Walker  39:53  

Warwick film, and we were waiting for the rushes one night, about midnight. After the cinema had closed, and what was his name, Young. Terry young. He was directing "No Time To Die", but he was viewing a previous film, and Cubby was waiting there and getting annoyed at hanging about. And he said he passed the remark about what they were watching, and we were standing there talking, and I think he was a bit low. He said, Gus will keep making films as long as Erwin is now, and my money holds out. He was allowed coming. I liked them. I met him years after, and he said to me, it's good to see the old faces I was in Pinewood after I'd retired. I liked Cubby. I had never much to do with urban Alan, but it was an example how success, how things expanded. And then with Warwick, when they were doing well, their attitude was, if you're under too much pressure, get get a get an assistant. And of course, some people did, and it snowballed. Success is not easy to cope with. Anyway, they Well, I worked on several pictures for them. And, of course, box was the director, and then the the big picture was, of course, the first big picture I worked with him was Dr Chicago. That was possibly the the biggest construction job I was ever involved in. We had tram cars and tram lines to get laid and everything else said,

Rodney Giesler  41:56  

to do the real thing. Are we going to build the trams? Oh yeah. Say the lay the lines.

Gus Walker  41:59  

Oh yes, the we got help from the tram company. But of course, they were, they were for scrap to the one to the new they were wanted. And then there were 60,000 percenters, or 600,000 percenters. But you know the Spaniards, they were all operators. I mean, even the people working on the film were the first to let them know that they'd been eating tram cars so they didn't let them go and cheap. And it was a marvelous set. The, I mean, this is the street, yeah, the thing is that that's why I said the box. It was all done with Spanish hands. You know, there's some marvelous craftsman that plaster was as good as you could find anywhere. And there was a lot of things, and they needed guidance on big jobs. But they, they, I found them a pleasure to work with. They had a little construction manager, little fellow that had wounds from and his leg from the Civil War. And of course, they were mostly the Spanish film industry was mostly those from the left. There were, I don't know whether it had been out now, communists or one, but they were anti Franco. And it was really funny when we the first time I was in Spain, was on movie Dick that we didn't stay long in Madrid. We went on to Canary Islands. But when we were there, we sometimes come back to the hotel, and a Frank, who was in town, you would have to stay in the car until they told you you could get out. The policeman would be there. And of course, the Spanish driver was petrified if you'd do anything that would get him into trouble. He make sure you wouldn't leave. And when we were coming from location once on travels, my aunt Frank had been visiting some tank unit up the road, and the whole road, you couldn't go on the road until he had passed, and we all sat there waiting to go home and waiting on him coming.

End of Side 2