Francis Searle

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Roy Fowler  0:04  
The following recording is copyright by the ACTT History Project 1988 we are in the executive committee room at ACTT on the 23rd of May 1988 and with me, Roy farmer is Francis sir. Francis sir, starting out a very long, long tape, as I suspect it's going to be, let me ask you, first of all, when and where were you born?

Speaker 1  0:37  
Born, March 1419, 1909, Putney. Putney, yes, right, where, oh

Roy Fowler  0:55  
well in. Putney, yes,

Speaker 1  1:01  
some of Ben Searle, Dentist buff me Rotarian, president of Buckley brotherhood, great social worker.

Unknown Speaker  1:27  
Hardly ever saw him,

Roy Fowler  1:30  
because he was so busy, because he was so busy, right in view, what later happened to you? Were there any connections with show business, entertainment, the visual graphic arts, any of those things, the

Speaker 1  1:43  
only, the only, the only connection could be that my father was a pretty good artist, painter, and I think I must have got some of his artistic talent because I can, whilst I'm not an artist, and I think I I could be a good painter if I tried, found a good sketch and that sort of thing, I found that useful in in dealing with art directors and so on, to be able to sketch out ideas and all that sort of thing. Otherwise, no, there was no. I was a sort of black sheep because my father wanted my brother to become a dentist who did a successful one, Harley Street dentist, but I, I couldn't take to it. He tried. I did some of course. Apparently it was a very big house and with its own workshop attached and all that sort of thing. I did some there, but at that time, see, I was in the school orchestra as a drummer.

Roy Fowler  3:27  
Well, that leads us to your schooling. You went to

Speaker 1  3:29  
grammar school, BECTU grammar school, yes, where

Roy Fowler  3:33  
was barters, the grammar school.

Unknown Speaker  3:36  
It is now the Granada cinema of grammar

Roy Fowler  3:42  
school. Right. It's no longer the longer the Granada cinema is the Granada bingo

Speaker 1  3:47  
or whatever. Yes, that's right. And ever from there, I sort of got the flavor of music, albeit rather simple, because that used to play drums for hymns and and, and the end of term, concert, you know, Mikado, that sort of thing,

Roy Fowler  4:15  
performances or concert versions, or what did they did? They actually perform the Mercado, Oh yes,

Speaker 1  4:21  
oh no, no for correction, just be the music, that's right. And also I was my colleague. I was doing gigs.

Roy Fowler  4:41  
Were they called gigs?

Unknown Speaker  4:43  
Yes, I was called King. Were they called?

Roy Fowler  4:47  
Right? We're talking now, what, sometime in the late teens, but you're still

Speaker 1  4:58  
at school, sort of done. Barnes tennis club, that sort of thing. Barnes Sports Club, correction Harold sports Sports Club, that Barnes be a little trio. There all people from the grammar school. No, no, no. I don't know how on earth i i can't remember the pianist name, but how much he got hold of me, I just don't know. But I remember going to the school on a Saturday and getting the drum kit, which was a pretty awful kid, an old Goon Goon drum. That's the one sided drum, Goon drum, and so on the borrowing or pinching it for the gig for which we received 10 shillings, I think, or seven or six months, perhaps not quite sure. Anyways, that was and you know, that's how that sort of thing. And Father, I don't know, he, sort of gave up trying to get me into dentistry. Anyway.

Roy Fowler  6:15  
At school, what were your favorite subjects? Did they tend toward? Again, anything that, oddly

Speaker 1  6:20  
enough, Roy, there was a strange mixture. I was pretty good at chemistry and physics, and here's the contradiction, be very awful at mathematics, but excellent at art, drawing and so on so forth, because later on which you probably might ask me about, that was useful when I went to Columbia Graphic home company and the laboratories that as a stage before stage before that, because my first job really was with my uncle's firm of Arthur cerlin Company of Putney bridge, who fabulous drafter manufacturers, makers and us so I was a rack and stick man. Your

Roy Fowler  7:26  
family sounds well, founded in the were established in the Putney area.

Speaker 1  7:30  
Very well, yes, oh yes. He was going back sometime. Yes, he was, he was, oh, he ran Bible classes.

Roy Fowler  7:40  
And that's your uncle. But your father also would

Speaker 1  7:43  
not my father, my father used to run the delvers. The delvers was a was a meeting of about six or eight men be given a book to read, and they'd all meet and discuss the book

Roy Fowler  8:03  
that sort this was what kind of middle class uplift? Was it? I

Speaker 1  8:09  
suppose so, yes, and then partly debating society. Father was, Oh, dear. He was so much I and so difficult to follow in any of his footsteps. He was very bright man. Well, he was a terribly, terribly conscientious man. Wesleyan i are

Speaker 1  8:46  
Muslim Methodist church goers, all of us, or chapel goers, whatever it is. And the Bucha brotherhood, of course, was his baby for 25 years. Marvelous, marvelous thing he did there, and he built it up from a small meeting of men in the Wesleyan Church of patio, who over 1000 men would be there, and great speakers like I can Remember them now, static, Kennedy. It was not non denominational, and it was not a, it was not not so much a religious gathering as a gathering of me, because this is sort of candy. Was First World War. And I was a babe, almost Yes, sent away. Sent away during that time, down to mid Ted, actually. But he was, you know, terrific. I. A man of social conscience and so on,

Roy Fowler  10:02  
in terms of what happened to you later your working life, your mother, did she have any kind of influence on you?

Speaker 1  10:12  
Yes, a great deal, really, a great deal, apart from the hundreds and hundreds of sausage rolls, darling, made for all these meetings and the socials, the church socials and the cakes and cotton as well. Yes, she was, oh, kindness itself.

Roy Fowler  10:41  
But did she contribute any positive factors? Do you think to your career?

Speaker 1  10:48  
Not until, I think Roy, not until she saw my name on the screen, because they were Bester. Darling. Heart. So they were concerned, because, all right, wanting to have anything to do with the theater or pictures.

Roy Fowler  11:13  
Were they cinema goes or theater? Was that religious or

Unknown Speaker  11:22  
concert goers used to go to concerts. First time I saw Chrysler was with them. No, they were, no, they hadn't. But mother's influence was, it was, always, matters are a calming one,

Roy Fowler  11:45  
but it was the general one, and not specific in any sense of the performing arts. So you were, you were about to see grammar school, until when? What age?

Unknown Speaker  12:01  
General schools,

Roy Fowler  12:04  
which was, what in those days,

Speaker 1  12:07  
16, I didn't go in, yes, that's right, yes would be didn't the trick. So I wasn't going into six, four, I fell on Full down on on,

Unknown Speaker  12:35  
on, but

Unknown Speaker  12:41  
the war is Boogaloo

Unknown Speaker  12:42  
in the category.

Roy Fowler  12:44  
What year are we talking about now? Oh, we're still talking about school the year. Let's act about the year the war is over. Certainly, right? You'd gone through that.

Speaker 1  12:57  
Oh yes, yes, the first of course, yes, yeah. Oh, well, what year? Well, look, if we take oh 909,

Roy Fowler  13:16  
and 16 makes it 25 That's right.

Unknown Speaker  13:21  
Okay, that's right. What

Roy Fowler  13:22  
are your memories of going to the cinema for the first time?

Speaker 1  13:34  
Two cinemas in Putney, the blue Hall and the free pit, which was a little cinema around just sort of an appendage, almost because the flee pit in everyone's life, and the little one in the upper Richland Road, which was there for years. Forget the name of it, but that that would be my things only. And of course, it would be post silent, yes, would it yes before I went to the seminar, not

Roy Fowler  14:17  
at all during your school years or your boyhood years,

Unknown Speaker  14:23  
I can't I can't recollect

Unknown Speaker  14:31  
seeing any of the Griffis. I'm hair done. But they haven't stuck now I suppose, I suppose it would go to singing fool,

Roy Fowler  14:55  
and those, is there a first fool that you remember seeing, Oh,

Unknown Speaker  14:59  
singing fool. Huh, yes, Johnson,

Unknown Speaker  15:08  
no gel on that one. Okay,

Roy Fowler  15:13  
right? Well, then school, third, no matric, but then what

Speaker 1  15:20  
I've covered, oh, dear, hang about, can I cover the period of being with my uncle? No,

Roy Fowler  15:29  
I was saying, you've now left school. You are leaving school with what ambitions? I don't know. Well, anything forming at this point in your mind. It was

Speaker 1  15:40  
obviously one of those things father saying, what the hell we're going to do with this one sort of thing

Roy Fowler  15:49  
you mentioned before that you did work for your uncle.

Speaker 1  15:52  
Yes. Then I went to Arthur servant company, who were pretty, pretty good in big in those days, because the art of selling company had done the original white city and the original fabulous glass work at Harrods, which is pretty ornate, all that sort of stuff. And then the big hotels like Mayfair,

Roy Fowler  16:21  
this is what a decorative trim within the building,

Speaker 1  16:26  
all the cornices, that sort of thing. So that work put me onto the drawing board and and then the Dragon stick running moles and jelly molds and wet moles and all that sort of thing. And I rather interesting thing here ways, because the modeler was Bianchi, bianco, Bianchi. And much later, when I was working for Sydney box at Riverside, he was the modeler at Riverside. Small world, small world. Yeah, but that didn't last very long, Oh, what, perhaps two or three years, I think something like that, because I didn't apply myself sufficiently to become a rag and stick merchant.

Speaker 1  17:50  
A lot, I think, in hindsight, a lot probably to do with my uncle. Was also a shareholder in ABC cinemas, I think it was and also in business with a herbert Yap, who built the original not Erwin, but Kensington. Now called the audience, whatever they were called. There was one at there was one at at Kensington, one at Morton, one somewhere else. They weren't called audience. Anyway, they right. The point is that on my uncle's desk there were always great big great lots of copies of great big six editions of the cinema, which I devoured. Was,

Roy Fowler  19:01  
was that an important aspect of his business to no only,

Speaker 1  19:06  
only in that, because he was involved with in the fabulous plaster decoration, decoration, and also a sharehold of ABC, he was interested, sort of indirectly, with the cinema,

Roy Fowler  19:27  
but you yourself have no hankerings at this stage. Well,

Speaker 1  19:33  
here we Yes, you see this. I didn't, I wasn't. I liked, I liked the, well, if the stage I like, I like the smell of the grease paint. But this wasn't, it wasn't grease paint. It was, it was the it was the smell of solenoid. Is such a thing. I. Um, because even even at the even at the one at more than I designed the proscenium arch and all that sort of thing, full sized it and so that didn't last because I, because, like, as so often happens with family things, family relationships, they don't something more, more often than not, don't work out in in a business

Roy Fowler  20:34  
you're talking a wrong Call. Yes, it

Speaker 1  20:36  
was a bit of a tartar. I And so then, after I left, there is that? Where we go? The next step, after that,

Roy Fowler  20:55  
indeed, yes, if we exhausted that in terms of the influences on you, well, see,

Speaker 1  21:00  
those were the, I suppose, influences of which I was not fully aware, still

Roy Fowler  21:10  
fumbling to my destiny, right, and I

Unknown Speaker  21:13  
was still drumming little gig bands all around the place, that sort of thing,

Roy Fowler  21:20  
out of curiosity, since these are what the what were they called? Not the swinging 20s, that was the 60s, but the Mad 20s, the Mad captain, yes, what do. What do you remember of those your growing up years young man who anyone reads about them in evening war novels? Were they like that? Oh,

Speaker 1  21:49  
no, see, there was a problem here, Roy in that I wasn't a tear away. I think I would have liked to have been, but because of

Speaker 1  22:11  
a couple of physical things, like I used to Blink badly and I used to stutter and stammer badly, and this tended to make me a bit introspective. And that is why, I suppose, when one thinks about this with hindsight, I might have been tipped to something which was more it's a bit more exhibition, bit more extrovert, to

Roy Fowler  22:50  
compensate, maybe a

Speaker 1  22:53  
compensation. These things obviously not planned. But, you know, getting down into my gut, I suppose, right, subconscious or wherever things go.

Roy Fowler  23:14  
What were your interests, besides your drumming and girls, here were you a reader as part of your interest? What did one read in those days? Yes,

Speaker 1  23:33  
no, I wasn't a great I wasn't a great reader. I suppose I

Speaker 1  23:43  
uh, the classic, you know, the Dickinsons. And because father had an enormous library, correct? Not enormous, but I can see it now, all the rooms, bookshelves, and I suppose also that this, this sort of, that sphere, was almost intimidating, because the old boy, bless his heart, he was infuriating because he knew every dancing could do Everything he

Unknown Speaker  24:29  
bind, books, paint, Carpenter, stuff, and I there was a time when I sort of

Speaker 1  24:46  
getting a bit going into my shell. It was off putting all these books, I suppose I'd read magazines. It's one reason. It could be. Good material. Now was loved him dearly, of course, that is a little bit frightening. Was

Roy Fowler  25:09  
that eventually, do you think an influence for good or for bad, that kind of pressure that he put upon you? Did it set you standards? In turn,

Speaker 1  25:25  
it set me, yes, Roy, it set me standards, which in later life, I found it blood and I impossible to to. I

Unknown Speaker  25:45  
to achieve No Well,

Roy Fowler  25:48  
to aim for or two years to

Unknown Speaker  25:53  
because, you see, there was this, there wasn't a strict method this place or anything like that. But

Speaker 1  26:02  
I there was a big, big conflict between the the act, the the image in those days of the theater and cinema, which was not the best of things to be, you know, a sort of thing. But in the Yes, in the in the end, of course, all that did have a bearing, a positive bearing, because, even though I did not eventually become what Big Think names or anything like that, it was probably because I knew right from wrong and was a bit too trusting and that sort of thing. But that all that all stems from my basic upbringing, doesn't it? See if, for example, my parents didn't care two bloody hoots about this, I might have been a tear away. No, that's a modern expression. He wouldn't have tear away in those days. Yes, it did have an influence, a good influence, because I've been able, throughout the whole of my career to have a clean nose in so far as finance is concerned. And if seeing all this sort of thing anywhere in the business, I think go now. What about Frank. So

Roy Fowler  27:45  
personal integrity was not just instinctive. It also had been to some extent.

Speaker 1  27:52  
It stemmed from a very solid family base. Yeah, yeah.

Roy Fowler  28:05  
Well, the years with your uncle weren't rewarding. So no, then what? No.

Unknown Speaker  28:11  
Well, then a patient to my father's was Henry false. Good heavens that he come from. Who always may the

Roy Fowler  28:27  
force be with you, as they say,

Speaker 1  28:33  
who was factory manager at Columbia graphophone company, a factory being at Bendin Valley off Gareth lane.

Roy Fowler  28:50  
Was Columbia, a British company, or do you have any? It had no connection at this

Speaker 1  28:55  
stage. This was American, Colombia. No, this was a brand new virgin,

Roy Fowler  29:02  
a 78 select discs. That's right,

Unknown Speaker  29:07  
not select discs. Well, I'll tell you about that, right. Okay, please do anyway. I was taken on down there because I was fairly good at chemistry and physics and school, and also I did have,

Speaker 1  29:38  
fortunately, I still Have it too, a facility for being, is it facility or faculty, either one, I think, for being resourceful, inventive, indeed, both that sort of thing. So I was then my first things there were in the. In the labs at Columbia, not on so much on the analytical side yet, but on the general things that factories have, the testing of materials and graphites and stuff that went into the into the records and the and they all that sort of thing, and the copper bars and all that sort of thing.

Unknown Speaker  30:41  
And but after a couple of years, I was upgraded to the analytical side and the research side, and I think I can say that I was responsible for the bringing about of the lightweight record, because at that time,

Speaker 1  31:16  
Colombia were losing a lot of export trade because of the weight of the 78 records. They used to weigh about eight and a half ounces, and they wanted to get down to about five and a half, something like that. So we had to rethink the construction of whole of the record. Whereas you see, the original Columbia record was a base stock. And then two, what they call P, O, P papers, which was the non scratch paper, the HMB is a solid stock, but the Columbia was a chunk of stock, and then two laminated with, laminated with two very, very fine graphited surfaces, and that made a thing. Well,

Roy Fowler  32:10  
this is a great historical interest. I'm not sure anyone, no, seriously, I'm not sure anyone would have dealt with that sort of thing. There were differences the way

Speaker 1  32:18  
that was called, that was, I forget what it was called. It was called P, O, P, and we brought it down to five and a half ounces for that. So that was that. Then we went on to to,

Roy Fowler  32:37  
you must have been still quite young. Can we, can we find a date for this, when did you go to Cologne? And this was very much, how does one say a very active period in home, gramophones, the sheet music and principal sort

Speaker 1  33:01  
of, yes, indeed, it several things I could, I could date this as well, but on the, on the, on The actual laboratory side, I then went into the to the to the gold bombardment of the wax masters, which was quite a new development, because the process was the wax master. Then, then that was graphite put into the copper piles out and then make a mistress. And then all that. It was a sort of three or four thing before you got to the to the to the actual master that went onto the onto the press. Yeah, onto the press. Here the original black, the original black masters were put into enormous thing. Oh, yes, a tunnel, the link of this room.

Roy Fowler  34:27  
So we're what, 1520, around about

Speaker 1  34:30  
six foot, and this right thing was bombarded electronic, with gold. And that made a gold thing immediately cutting out several things also at that time. One of the things also. Was needle where, oh yes, one of the one of the thrills was, now this will date it Warner Brothers first big, 16 inch discs they used

Roy Fowler  35:18  
well in the States. It was for music on Don Juan. Or Don Juan, has I

Speaker 1  35:24  
ever come across from the States? Vitaphone, yes. And I was assigned the job of needle wear on these balancing needle wear with graphs, needle wear and surface wear, so they had to be balanced. So it was a bit of a, you know, correctly, balanced. Do you remember

Roy Fowler  35:51  
the film that was involved? Oh, I don't know. No, not the film, but it may well have been Don Juan or Don Juan. I imagine Don Juan being Warner Brothers.

Speaker 1  36:02  
But that was one of the, one of the more exciting

Roy Fowler  36:07  
little jobs they were. What dimension this 1616, inches, at what revolutions?

Speaker 1  36:18  
Very slow. Whatever it was at that time, I don't know, probably about appear to be around, oh no, even, even slower than the they used to start from the center, of course, yes,

Roy Fowler  36:30  
center out, 16 two thirds,

Speaker 1  36:35  
or something, something like that, got the thing on That 16

Roy Fowler  36:39  
and a half, it was, wasn't it? I vaguely remember from transcriptions I used to use, they were,

Speaker 1  36:47  
but anyway, there was, you know, that was quite a fascinating time.

Speaker 1  37:00  
My mind was on other matters. Oh, no, I won't go to getting the sack yet, because at that time, also, it was a jolly interesting phase, which was the Columbia amateur theatrical society called the cats, which they all used to meet up at petty France,

Roy Fowler  37:32  
where was the factory? By the way, you did mention it, but the factory

Speaker 1  37:36  
was at Bendin Valley in off Garrett lane, southwest London.

Roy Fowler  37:43  
Oh, yes, Wandsworth, that's right,

Speaker 1  37:47  
yes, it was there because the wandle went right by it. And of course, the machinery had to make use of the waters there anyway. So insofar as the cats, Columbia, amateur theatrical society was concerned. We used to for gather it, as I say, in the recording studios at petty France, just by the station here, not here, but station which was an absolute joy for me. Of course, I was, you know, getting near, it was music. And I just wanted to, you know, it was a feeling of being in a recording studio too. God, wonderful, in the same place that Carol Gibbons had recorded, you know, this sort of thing.

Roy Fowler  38:41  
Was it acoustic recording still,

Speaker 1  38:46  
and this was the cats was run. Oh, yes, I used to edit a new magazine called Cats magazine, which was going round everybody and asked him to contribute and affect him, handling all this sort of thing. Incidentally, there were two people there at that time who were not involved in the actual business of laboratory, but were sort of trainee people. One was Ian grant. No, wasn't Ian grant, somebody Grant, who eventually became a camera man. Another one was Ian squire, J squire son, all of him later, because I did gigs with him, because he put me into the Oh God. He put me into the Jerry and toms and Terry Thomas.

Roy Fowler  39:57  
Terry Thomas, yes. They're all,

Speaker 1  40:01  
you know, just been out for the thing. Anyway, the cats, yes, and this was run by W, not wh, Barry, his, his,

Unknown Speaker  40:20  
either his son or his bullberry. We used to call anyway, I think it was, well, it was Berry. And so I used to go up there mainly for the cat thing, because

Unknown Speaker  40:38  
I still had this bad stammer. And and came a time when they were doing hay fever, and the guy who was the one played a boxer, fell ill, couldn't do it,

Speaker 1  41:10  
and we were to play it at the ears. We used to use the Steinway, good heavens, stone way Hall, COVID Gates theater.

Speaker 1  41:27  
And so Paul said, Frank, don't have to do this. Well, this was i He was a very good, gentle bloke. I can see him now. He used to give me some bit of coaching, that sort of thing. Anyway, there I was on the batty stage at cripplegate theater, making my entrance, which I thought took me five minutes to get on, that I got on and blurted out my first lines. And from that point forward, Roy began to go.

Roy Fowler  42:28  
Have you ever thought or found out what might have been the origin of the stone?

Speaker 1  42:35  
Only a general nervous disposition from the word go?

Roy Fowler  42:40  
Do you think that might, well, again, have been parental pressure? Because I think that I wouldn't

Speaker 1  42:45  
know Roy because of the blinking, the boyhood, young boy who sings, games,

Roy Fowler  42:54  
games, the pressures on childhood people don't really.

Speaker 1  42:59  
Could well be, because when could I tend to be over sensitive, over emotional, you name it. That's me, and I suppose being left very much on one's Jack because of the, because of the of the of the of the social thing, but activities of the chapter. There are always people there, you know, meetings.

Roy Fowler  43:38  
But it was, it was that easily dealt with. Finally

Speaker 1  43:41  
it began. It began to go. Yes, it began to go. It happens now on occasion and I get uptight and but I don't Fauci. The stammer has gone. That was, that was the awful one, because I couldn't say my name at school. Oh, dear.

Roy Fowler  44:05  
And kids are merciless, too.

That hasn't changed, no,

Speaker 1  44:13  
that hasn't changed. Never will, just bloody little animals and vicious at that. So that was, that was that was that was cats and the sports, oh yes, we used to perform down at Worcester Park, who had lovely, lovely sports ground down at Worcester Park sort of thing, played in the tennis things what have you.

Roy Fowler  44:42  
How did they pay you? Do

Speaker 1  44:45  
you remember three, I think it was three pounds, yes.

Roy Fowler  44:52  
Was that considered good? I suppose, adequate.

Unknown Speaker  44:58  
I suppose, yes. Do. You were still quite

Roy Fowler  45:00  
young, yes, so three, three pounds a week in the early 20s or the late 20s now?

Unknown Speaker  45:13  
Yes, how

Roy Fowler  45:14  
long were you at Columbia? Record?

Speaker 1  45:16  
Oh, well, then about, about about three years there, but as I was about to say, I was, I was always, not always as an exaggeration, but I wouldn't leave the advertising manager alone, because I hated the what I regarded as dull, uninteresting window displays of Columbia record things you know, and I was always sending in designs and plans for improving the window displays. And I actually, I even invented, because you remember, their trademark was magic notes, wasn't it? Oh yes, you've reminded me magic notes. And I noticed that one day when I was because one thing I had to do was to screen a lot of the material that came in, mica and all that sort of thing. Because it had to be a certain grade of what happened, because Michael went into it and varieties, and I can't remember what it went into it now, apart from oil and waxes, things comes.

Unknown Speaker  46:49  
And I noticed that if I did this, which is what, without with it, with it, with a, with a with a mesh, yes, the whole thing sort of twinkled.

Roy Fowler  47:01  
But we should describe that for people who are listening rather than, Oh well, it's

Speaker 1  47:07  
rather like holding up a very fine sieve. And if you do that up against the light, you get hundreds and hundreds of little things. So I had one note made up into a box with a magic notes to go into a window you see, yes. And of course, it was sort of twinkling all the time, but the advertising manager didn't like that. That's

Roy Fowler  47:33  
a technique that is used today. I think, I think that's about the end of the tape. I

Yes. Side to to resume, learn process. You're at Columbia Records, and you've been devising all sorts of extremely unwelcome schemes for the advertising moment, yes, that's right. Oh, you don't have any, Michael, and do you I don't have mine any.

Unknown Speaker  48:19  
That was just a dummy. I

Roy Fowler  48:21  
think we know, no, actually, we've crossed over. You're on the left channel. I'm on the right,

Unknown Speaker  48:33  
about where there,

Roy Fowler  48:35  
yeah, it's fine anyway. Yeah, pick up. Sorry. Goon, right. Okay, we got all that, so we didn't have to go back on it.

Speaker 1  48:44  
Yes, the appetite, advertising, that sort of thing. We're not rolling it on Yes, yes, yes. So yes, well, then that brought about a polite note from from Mr. Force, the general manager of the factory,

Unknown Speaker  49:11  
saying something to the effect that in some other situation, there would be out for my undoubted talents, as it was the impression. So that was that,

Roy Fowler  49:29  
that that really, was it that, because you had tried to show an interest and do things, they fired you. Well, their manner of firing you, well,

Speaker 1  49:39  
you see one, thinks about it, it's pretty it's fair enough. If I was going to be a chemist, I ought to be an only chemist and not Frick about with

Roy Fowler  49:55  
that. I would personally have thought that any i. It's gone wrong. It's dead. Why is it dead?

Hello, one yes. Now we're working. It's just that it relates to all the things I find loathsome about this country that people are supposed to know their place, and if they dare step out of line, they're sat upon them. There are creeps who think they have all the answers. God given wisdom, it obviously existed 5060, years ago

Speaker 1  50:42  
that day, my microphone is dead again, I don't know why is mine?

Roy Fowler  50:46  
Yours is okay? Oh, there it is. It was it comes on, right?

Speaker 1  50:55  
I mean hiring and firing, of course, with no unions, no indeed. So I

Roy Fowler  51:08  
A my channel keeps breaking up, though that's all right now, hello, I'm sorry to be doing this, but obviously, no, it's i Well, I'll get picked up on your mic, so not to worry, yours is working. Okay. As you say, there were no unions, and it was a matter of get your cars and get out if you upset them. Yes, which

Speaker 1  51:37  
is fair enough? Which is fair enough if they're not doing the job that they want you to do?

Roy Fowler  51:41  
Well, presumed, do, well, presumably you were doing the job that you were paid to do, and you wanted to do other things too. We'll disagree on

Unknown Speaker  51:54  
that ball game. Yes,

Roy Fowler  51:57  
yes. This will be an aspect of things that we will discuss sooner or later, which is how people do fit into their working environments and what representation they need, we shall come down to act and act Eventually, right? Anyway, so you're shown the door.

Speaker 1  52:19  
Yes, I uh, mind you doing during the period I collected. Oh, I collected. We were also allowed to take home 12 Columbia Records every week for free. Yes, I'm sort of straight off the press, not finished. But also, there was one that was, I think, quite unique in that I have a I still have it, taped it, of course, and that was a recording done for the introduction of Carol Gibbons and his new band at the Savoy Hotel, which was a great joy. And Carol introduced each member, introduced each member by name and so forth,

Roy Fowler  53:24  
recorded at the Savoy or did they come to the studio

Speaker 1  53:29  
and introduced by the recording manager at that time, Langley, I think, is where his name was. But it was not for general publication. It was for exploitation, retail.

Roy Fowler  53:42  
Yes,

Speaker 1  53:43  
dealerships, but it's a piece of recording which I value. And of course, some of the members of the band I later years i.

Roy Fowler  0:03  
He was a bit bossy. Was he

Unknown Speaker  0:06  
Well, he was his father's son?

Roy Fowler  0:11  
Would he have made it without his father? No,

Speaker 1  0:13  
not in 1,000,030 years, he had a silver spoon that Powell, everything. I nearly made a cock up in the end. Right? Cock up. Oh,

Speaker 1  0:31  
many, not many times, several times Jim would say, What the bloody dog can we do about Mike? Because he was off with the dollies all the time and turn up onto set in a good looking bugger sort of Lord it around. And the crunch came when I did this, when I did this picture, we're not on, are we? Yes, oh, crimes, no, I don't know. I don't like that going on. Take Roy, well, now I've used some bit of rough language there.

Roy Fowler  1:15  
No, I honestly, I see nothing wrong with that. No, it's, I mean, no, it's a fair comment in terms of the people who were in the business in those days, and it'll never get heard, not by him. I think, really, that's what we should be doing. You see, rather than one can

Speaker 1  1:34  
see, one can in the moment, one can tend to exaggerate, but

Roy Fowler  1:39  
heard lots and lots worse things, I promise you, on the tapes, what

Speaker 1  1:43  
put the markers on it, as far as he and I was concerned, of doing this picture in Manchester, was a difficult picture, the Rosman Johns thing so on. And I introduced Tony Keyes, Production Manager. And Michael came up there. I did a whole, did the rewrite where every, almost every damn thing, Noel Roberts was casting. And, you know, Michael was, he came up there to sort of oversee this, that and the others stayed in the nicest club, all this sort of business. And then it, when the picture comes out, who gets the producers credit? But Michael, that put the mockers on it for me, what I know that's leap straight in it.

Roy Fowler  2:42  
It was not unusual. We're back to that business of being screwed all the time. Yes, as an old friend of mine used to describe it, getting fucked without getting kissed.

Speaker 1  2:59  
Yes, that's right, that's it be that sort of thing, you know, and sort of running around, and Jimmy Bannon is Rolls

Roy Fowler  3:10  
Royce, so they weren't doing badly. Oh no. It's astonishing how much money was just ripped out of the business. And still is.

Speaker 1  3:20  
Then, of course, after after that, Troy, we went, Oh, and whilst I was shooting at Oakley thing, doing a the first, no, not the first. I

Unknown Speaker  3:42  
think about a jump. It was a rotten because it was the first of the Anglo American ones. Now, that was a

Speaker 1  3:56  
that was a thing because Jim up to that moment, had only been, only got sort of releases in UK and around and he was over in the States, and he had a script of mine, correction, not of mine, but a script that I liked, story that I liked, by the name of Leo marks, who you may or may not have heard great. He was a big got a big noise in the cipher business and in the war, we became buddies, organized bloke. And he had a subject called Cloud purse, which was a play of his. I saw it, and I liked it, and I told him to make a very good film, but it was about cipher work, and so we turn it into a split. Drivers living in ther Street at the time, little flat in Thayer Street. And he'd come round there, and we'd slug at it, got it into good shape, and Jim took it across to America and got a deal, and for which he was very thrilled with, I think, the lesser organization, James lesser, whatever it was. And of course, he was very much in the pocket of Arthur Emily is at Warners here, and the chapart A, B, letter, C, J, letter, whose son, no correction, son In law, was brought into into

Unknown Speaker  5:59  
into Hannah house on casting anything together infuriated me. They just lauded around the bloody patient and I got their hands dirty. However, another story,

Speaker 1  6:22  
Jim knew what he was doing. And I've often said to him, I told you. And then for round in the golden square to Vic fix somebody who was a buyer for ABC,

Unknown Speaker  6:41  
trodden a trench around. But he was, he was a great, great man.

Roy Fowler  7:00  
Well, it's part of that period when you were working for careers.

Speaker 1  7:06  
Oh, I know, yes, I'm back to cloud first. So he come back, and Noel Roberts was casting, because we, you know, we got through quite a number of artists, one way or another, doing three or four of these a year, playing hard. Work doesn't sound very much. I know

Roy Fowler  7:29  
you want straight salary. Do you remember what it was? Yes,

Unknown Speaker  7:33  
50 pounds a week. Good Lord,

Roy Fowler  7:37  
that accounts for their rolls. Royces, yeah, right. Sorry, yeah, big deal. I interrupted your train of thought. You want to say something about this one picture,

Speaker 1  7:54  
and we wanted because it as a star, it called for rather sensitive type of person being head of a cipher, and we were toying or trying To get Trevor Howard, that that that was the sort of image we had. I because it was quite a quite a dramatic story, a very good story. However, that wasn't to be because I was called into Tim's office and told me about the deal. So fine, right? Who says I got you a star too. Robert Preston,

Speaker 1  8:54  
he's a bloke I'd seen Dashing through the bloody woods with guns firing all over the place, and I uh, this is your loving he got to end of end of thing. So actually, it turned out quite well, because he was an absolute charm. He's a very good was a very good athlete. Well, yes, and of course, I didn't know Miss cost, but yes, yes, yes, it wasn't, but he ate him, and he toned down a hell of a lot, but he can. He's a macho man. Anyway, one thing that Jim Carreras very, very sore and drip was to come anywhere near the studio. He kept well in the background. And when it came, Sir Robert Preston was brought over. You see, I met him at an absolute charm and Holly. Had a further me to take him down to the house the studio.

Roy Fowler  10:06  
There is a brave studio. Now, is there? Oh, no, it's in

Speaker 1  10:10  
the house this. This was before the studios were built, but you're working. But there was this enormous, big house, again, next door to next door to to Bray, yes. So to Oakley, Oakley court, yeah, the next house along right, and I'd, I'd used it a couple of times whilst I was at Oakley, just because they had

Roy Fowler  10:31  
a right. You mean the house that eventually became very studios, yes, yes, right, yeah.

Speaker 1  10:35  
That was owned by George. George, somebody, another dip so nearly always got us tight room with it down there, George Davis, he was the boss of asprow. He probably needed them yes every time and how they would go into that.

Unknown Speaker  10:59  
And so off we go and down to arrive at Bray the house. Bob president, he didn't know what he's going to expect.

Speaker 1  11:17  
Jeez, what's this brought this? Is it? Oh, well, oh well, here we go. And it worked like a dream. Fortunately, Bob Preston has had a lot of experience in America, you know, I think I don't know what it's called, theater, nano theater in the round, but now that's here. But those that type of work

Unknown Speaker  11:43  
where it was a very sort of, you know, type group of dedicated artists. So even though he was big time, he adapted, and he brought his wife over at absolute charmers. And that was rather good. It was a good picture.

Speaker 1  12:20  
And from then on, that opened the door for Jim with his American people. Then Richard Carlson came across and George Brent, and then,

Roy Fowler  12:29  
what would they have been paid? Any idea? I have no idea.

Speaker 1  12:32  
It's all part of the deal. I would never have been privy to that.

Roy Fowler  12:45  
You're still around 50 a week. Are you? Oh,

Unknown Speaker  12:50  
I had eventually a percentage interest in when I've lost all the papers. So it's no good taking it up in Whispering Smith, that was the Richard Carlson one and Herbert long and

Roy Fowler  13:08  
suffice it to say they've never sent you a check. Oh no.

Speaker 1  13:16  
Now that time, we had a lot of script problems on the Richard Carlson thing, but he was very cooperative. That was when Michael was aging in and edging me out. I

Speaker 1  13:48  
because that was the last one I made for Jim. But then came the other things up in Manchester. So but it was still the same thing of using every inch of the and, of course, building sets within the four walls because they were big enough and the grounds and the river.

Roy Fowler  14:20  
Yes, there's a lot you could do there.

Speaker 1  14:21  
Oh, yes, it was all good looking stuff.

Roy Fowler  14:28  
So I gather you left because of mutual antipathy you and Michael couriers, yeah.

Speaker 1  14:39  
Well, I just sort of, I wasn't asked to do that also was, was the beginning of a new phase when my chum Terry Fisher came onto the scene, and the start of, almost the start of the first horror things i.

Speaker 1  15:03  
And I couldn't do that at all. Wasn't my scene. Just couldn't. So that's when, when I say Terry came in, because I'd also I forget the date at which, because Terry and I worked together on the pet O'Brien picture, or anyone that was,

Unknown Speaker  15:32  
oh, that's when I went independent, of course, because we're now, I

Speaker 1  15:43  
this is when I started doing pictures for all these various distributors like butchers and man tune. And

Roy Fowler  15:53  
where are we in terms of time, time, still the 40s, or are we into the 50s?

Unknown Speaker  16:04  
Wait a minute, 4950 fish were 52 we're in the last half of the

Roy Fowler  16:15  
50s. When you win freelance, yeah,

Speaker 1  16:19  
because I formed bafred films in 60 so that was when all these other movies, all these were made, All that this, all this lot here, see for i Well, kind of a good. Well, the movie is monarch, yes, monarch, Bill girl, of course,

Roy Fowler  16:55  
yes. The movies, I think, are of less importance in a way, since the documented, right? Yes, sir, and then the people involved, the personalities and the companies, because almost none of those companies survive, do they? No. In fact, I don't think

Speaker 1  17:15  
anyone does the Bray. What person I've been I've been on the right, Jimmy Harley became number one camera man there because Cedric had a row with Jim Carreras.

Roy Fowler  17:30  
That was that there wasn't much in the way of job security, by the sound of it. Oh no, tell me what it was like in the 50s to set up shop as a freelance what writer, producer, director, how much work was there around what were the chances of getting a good movie? Did you have to make your own chances, or did people come to you?

Speaker 1  17:57  
Oh, no, you had to trap on doors. And it was pretty damn tough, because you were all it's in the early old saying you're only as good as your last movie. And whilst there was not much way of finding out whether it was a great success or not, because in B pictures and CO features and sort of thing, there was not so long as it wasn't a turkey, and it got us. But all these had circuit releases, whether to rank or ABC or whatever. So that was good enough. That was my card sort of thing. If they hadn't got a circuit release. Well, you know, some doubts about it. I did one or two it, but I don't think I did, and but they all made money for the for the people concerned, but they were found unhappily. I never made anything much, because the having to deal with the FCC, well, I always, I never had enough capital to put anything in myself, or very, very little, then it had to be a deferment. Or, hell, you were only getting if you got 400 pounds in the budget, 500 pounds in the budget for directing that was good money. Yeah. And what sort of schedule, 15 day schedule, yeah. And you're supposed to have a profit, things were by the time you've paid back. And this is when you were a hand of the distributors who would hold on to the money and not pay it out at the right and proper times. There was n FFC with interest accruing all of any time. And by the time all that was dealt with that interest that was that was dealt with as bugger all left in the thing, I had two complete Eros packed up. I got six months in the pound on one of the pictures. I don't need many of those to put you in the not

Roy Fowler  20:44  
street. So it was really, for everyone, a very, very precarious livelihood, very, very in a good year, what, what would you we're talking now the 50 still in a good year, what could you hope to gross five

Unknown Speaker  21:00  
and three grand.

Roy Fowler  21:05  
It wasn't exactly living on the life of Riley and in a bad year. Did you have any special bad Well,

Unknown Speaker  21:15  
I kept, I managed to keep my

Roy Fowler  21:18  
it seems. You know, the list is, is an extensive one. You seem to a lot more than people, many people in

Speaker 1  21:32  
but it has, I've had a bit back from television. But of course, in those days, you've had to give everything away, a copyright all part of anything you couldn't Well, this is so happens today. This

Roy Fowler  21:48  
is 1988 and there is a bill going through the house now copyright to rewrite copyright, and still the bastards won't give economic rights to directors as a matter of the conceding moral rights. But the moral rights are not inalienable, so they're unenforceable. And the economic rights belong to the producers, the production company. Now, what's that for justice? Anyway? We mustn't, we mustn't go down to that. But the well, there is this list of companies here, which, I think, no, it's 18 minutes after one. Yeah, would you like to start on that aspect of things afresh? Yes,

Speaker 1  22:32  
because I, in the meantime, I will make sure my dates. Okay. Dates are important start from that, that phase of independence, shall we say? Right? Yeah, okay, because then I could give you a chapter and verse and personnel. There

Roy Fowler  22:49  
are some interesting companies here which are out of business, butchers, majors, Alliance models, Douglas Fairbanks Junior, presumably, there's luck. Well, that's Mike's father, right?

Unknown Speaker  23:02  
Yeah. Mike, my tea boy, yeah,

Roy Fowler  23:04  
no. Multi multi millionaire, yeah, terrible. And his mom is on a commercial in a commercial on the air. Have you seen that? Yeah. Well, we'll talk about the Mancunian, which I'm sure really hasn't been well documented Mancunian. So what memories we can Yes, salvage of that would be, I think, be very useful. Okay, well, then, what shall we say? A week or weeks? What would I can't do next Tuesday? All right, Monday. How's that?

Speaker 1  23:39  
Or you name? No, that is the date that, as Peter Lucas has set for a further thing,

Roy Fowler  23:54  
Francis, welcome back. It's been a longer break than we'd intended. We're now the 29th of July, and we're back at 111 Water Street, so we pick up now I gather that you've got some additional memories of your time in the 30s at GBI.

Speaker 1  24:11  
GB, screen, GB, screen, well, GB, screen, stroke after GBI, yes, Roy, because I just to sort of read cap, to bring me up to date on it, we had our offices on the fifth floor. That was the managing director. Was just Davis, and there was a G Jackson script writer was Harold Goodwin, general production. Chap was Derek Dane, Eric or Derek Eric, Eric Dane.

Speaker 1  24:58  
Camera was Frank Noel. Was editing with Enid Mansell, Frank Cadman was around.

Speaker 1  25:14  
That was roughly the sort of crewing Oh Brendan Stafford, of course, yes, yes. He came on a little bit later for lighting the bigger subjects, the sort of thing I used to do for British Council and some of one or two of the fairly decent sized sponsored jobs like Anglo Iranian and English oil field their sort of things.

Roy Fowler  25:53  
Are we talking pre war or post war

Speaker 1  25:57  
or war time? What war time. Oh no, no, sorry. Just pray. Just immediately, don't pray. Then the balloon went up and we went down into the basement.

Unknown Speaker  26:16  
And obviously we stayed down there until the yellow whistle went. But of course, the commercial side was became rather limited. And that, of course, is when

Speaker 1  26:40  
the area, which I think I've already covered pretty well, for the services with a k1 a k2 air force and navy and the MOI, which I think I did mention all these names, Beddington and Arthur Elton Wright and John Taylor, and

Roy Fowler  27:12  
I'm not sure that I can remember the extent to which we dealt with them as personalities. Would you maybe like to contribute thumbnail sketches of each of those? Well,

Speaker 1  27:23  
yes, the procedure really would be a, I don't know whether they were monthly meetings or fairly regular, we'd all go around to this place. You told me the name of it,

Roy Fowler  27:39  
physical Senate House, that's right, yes,

Speaker 1  27:42  
and all sit around a very large day, wouldn't Jack Beddington would be in the chair. And I forget whether, whether we were sort of dished out with, I think we were dished out with subjects, you know, one for you, one for you, and one for your business.

Speaker 1  28:08  
Oh, Roger. Roger Burford, he was sort of number one or two or something like that, to to Beddington. In fact, there were several of that type of chaparral who were put in charge of looking after two or three producing companies or that sort of thing.

Roy Fowler  28:36  
Tony was. Was there an era of the gentleman amateur at the moi.

Unknown Speaker  28:43  
A Warner,

Roy Fowler  28:45  
what was there an air of the gentleman, amateur attached to the moi? Or was it, in your estimation, a thoroughly going professional operation, as we

Speaker 1  28:57  
were? Oh? Rody, yes, yes. I think, yes, I think I take your point there. It wasn't a lot of enthusiastic amateurs, because we had strict budgets. And all the work we did, we were given a subject like I can remember. Oh, actually, I won't take up time on the actual subjects, but there's a nursing one can't remember the things, but I think we've covered almost

Roy Fowler  29:36  
no. What I meant was people like Beddington seem to have brought a highly idiosyncratic and personal approach to their decisions. Would you say that's a fair comment? They saw the world through their eyes, rather than a more objective stance?

Speaker 1  29:58  
Yes, yes. I think. What, particularly when it came to the to, not, not, not the service type of subject, what was the, what was the word you use? The propaganda. That's right, yeah, Home Front propaganda. I Yeah, well, I suppose roughly and gone with most of proper character. Let's face it, it has to do the job. And so it might have been a little bit was obviously favor of the

Roy Fowler  30:39  
I'm not sure I'm making my question as clear, and as I should, it seems to me there are correlations, possibly between the way the MMI was run and who ran it, and also the secret services at the time, which again, had this influx From other professions and the universities, and there was very English rather than British, even and up.

Speaker 1  0:00  
But there was nothing. First of sale site three, yes,

Roy Fowler  0:08  
right. We were still then at the your early days in Highbury, yeah, the second picture there. Then, then what happened?

Speaker 2  0:17  
Then, I think, came the, time when

Speaker 2  0:33  
it must have been GB screen services, then John British film house after that, I forget how I got a job there.

Roy Fowler  0:52  
What did you go as well?

Speaker 2  0:53  
I went as it was run by basil Davis. Well, it was part of the austr part of the Goon British organization. David ostru was the boss, boss man. Basil Davis was the head of GB screen. Ag Jackson was a sort of producer of commercials, because their big, their big thing was over King

Unknown Speaker  1:40  
Edward I was taken on.

Roy Fowler  1:44  
The company was just for making commercials, yes, yeah, at that time it was and they got shown in the cinemas, oh, yes, because they had a very big tie up with rank. You know, this was a big business, yes, well, it wasn't ranked. It wasn't ranked at

Speaker 1  2:04  
that stage. I remember el St John being involved and all that. But surely that would have been later Francis. Oh, I'm sorry.

Speaker 2  2:10  
Oh, because it would be, wouldn't it? Yes. Anyway, they were, they were, they were filled for theatrical distribution. Yes,

Unknown Speaker  2:19  
yes. This was the Austrians, part of the Austrian British Empire,

Speaker 2  2:24  
on the top the fifth floor of film house. I remember who was around at that time. GB news was there and down in the basement.

Roy Fowler  2:39  
Again, this is what middle to late 30s. Now we're getting on a bit.

Unknown Speaker  2:44  
We're still before the war anyway, when that was purely commercials.

Speaker 2  2:57  
At first, sort of being general assistant to Jackson and then directing the commercials, which is, oh, how many we did, doesn't matter. Well, this

Roy Fowler  3:07  
is, it's a very interesting subject, because, to my knowledge, it hasn't really been gone into the pre war commercial production activity, yes. So I think we ought to try and, well, dig out as much as, yeah. And first of all, you went to the place as as as, what, what? General assistant

Speaker 2  3:30  
to AG Jackson, yeah. And also at the there at the time was Harold Goodwin, who was script writer, and Eric Dane, who was sort of general organizer, and and Frank cadmans, right Enid campman, Frank Cadman, ring a bell, yeah,

Roy Fowler  4:05  
before my time, yes.

Unknown Speaker  4:10  
Enid was the editor.

Roy Fowler  4:14  
And this is now all in film house, top floor film house. Yes. Was there a studio in the basements.

Speaker 2  4:23  
That was, that was, that was the, that was the storehouse for TV news. All the board TV news boys were down there. See them now too?

Roy Fowler  4:37  
Was there a studio tied to the operation? No, no,

Unknown Speaker  4:42  
well, we didn't use to you very much.

Roy Fowler  4:49  
Staff, camera man,

Unknown Speaker  4:50  
no, oh yes, yes, Frank north, good lord, yes, Frank north, do. Yes. And then there would be, you know, if it was a, well, then we take on

Speaker 2  5:10  
whoever was, necessarily, if it was a studio thing, which did not very often happen in commercials, it was far too expensive.

Roy Fowler  5:18  
How were the commercials made?

Speaker 2  5:20  
Well, there would be a lot of exterior work. And

Speaker 2  5:35  
if we go into Marylebone or I married when we use quite a lot. One or two we made, I remember one now was with, with, with, not Jack Claude Holbert at comont Lime Grove. Another one I did later on down there with, with, with Jack card. It on camera. Oh, no, it must have been later on. This was, this is one of the first color ones.

Roy Fowler  6:20  
Well, Jack was very early Technicolor camera. Man,

Speaker 2  6:28  
I think, I think I might be, I don't know whether that was after I'd come back. I really don't know about those dates. Roy, i i say this the early, the early period there was fairly uneventful in some of the very titles it might so this is only a bit of this is before Pearl and Dean even, because they came in and took over at a later date. Start Date, drive, drive,

Roy Fowler  7:13  
well, don't, don't, don't try to strain

Unknown Speaker  7:15  
for it, trying to think of anything.

Roy Fowler  7:19  
How were commercials made. Who started the operation? Were the advertising agencies involved? Or did the client you say they were captive clients? So what was the one you mentioned? Ah, well,

Speaker 2  7:31  
now, now, old team Ford. He would be a salesman. He would go as from DB screen to big organizations to sell them screen time

Roy Fowler  7:44  
directly to the client. That's right, I don't know agency, no,

Speaker 2  7:51  
not to my knowledge, anyway, but basil Davis, he was the sort of power behind the thing. You know, he do a big contracts and like over teams, it was

Roy Fowler  8:01  
all called publicity in those days. It wasn't advertising. It

Speaker 2  8:05  
was Oh yes, right? Who wrote the scripts? Harold would win, and then he we would then get together Harold and I, and we thrash it out and make it into a movie script.

Roy Fowler  8:17  
Who gave you the advertising brief, the point of the commercial

Speaker 2  8:24  
from, from, as result of of a combination of conferences between Jackson and the client, and and, or either Jackson and the client, or Ford and the client. But Jackson was a sort of King, ping merchant, a very,

Roy Fowler  8:48  
it was all very soft, so was it not?

Speaker 2  8:50  
Oh yes, terribly general gentleman. Oh my god yes. And all very because Jackson was married to, he was a very nice boat. He was about six foot three, elegant tour. Everything was the latest. He was made to Gloria, one of the Selfridge girls. There were two. They

Roy Fowler  9:20  
all knew how to do well for themselves.

Speaker 2  9:24  
Mind you, this is darling. He never sold his hands at all. It

Speaker 1  9:29  
would be sort of very much laid back. It's also typically British, leaving

Speaker 2  9:34  
it to the, you know, to the to the plebs to do it typically

Roy Fowler  9:38  
English. I'm unfair to other sections country.

Speaker 2  9:44  
But it was we, was it a thing was that we were making something which we loved doing. We enjoyed it. Okay, I won't go off at two. Was a tangent, but obviously, for people are going to enjoy themselves to it, you are not going to interfere with it like a boss. Oh, no. So that was it used to fall gather over at the George and play pin table or something like that. And we worked bloody hard.

Roy Fowler  10:20  
Yes, you might have worked hard, but I must say, it sounds a great case of the amateurisms. It doesn't really sound a professional operation in terms of its purpose. It has all the worst aspects to my present day era British amateurism, especially in terms of management, a total incompetence of management. Am I being unfair? Yes,

Speaker 2  10:47  
I am. Because if a person of BECTU stature brings in 60,000 pounds worth of business, then, well, that is doing business. It was

Roy Fowler  11:02  
a profit center. Oh yes indeed.

Speaker 2  11:07  
Oh yes, it was, it was, it was there for a very long time. Not correction, not very long time. But as I say, 1015, years, maybe,

Roy Fowler  11:17  
presumably, there is a direct line to either rank advertising films or to Pearl and Dean. I'm

Speaker 2  11:23  
not sure which. No, see, Pearl and Dean were the opposition. Well,

Roy Fowler  11:27  
Pearl and Dean came later and later. I can't remember the details, but Ernie Pearl and Bob Dean had worked. I think, yeah, we'll come to that one in a minute. Yes, let's do that. But they so I'm unfair in saying that it all sounds a bit rinky dink that you I mean, could you bear to see those films again? Oh, yes, you think they would.

Unknown Speaker  11:51  
They weren't at all. They were quite good.

Roy Fowler  11:55  
And some ring colo,

Unknown Speaker  11:57  
I thought, Jack, cough, no,

Speaker 2  11:59  
not until that was, I think I did one, no one of the first ones. And I can't put a date to it was the, could I did a couple with Jack coward, if later on, I'll tell you. But prior to 39 as I say, I think it was fairly uneventful. It was, you know, turning out these black and whites, whether it was for Ovaltine or, can

Roy Fowler  12:33  
you remember an oval team commercial? What was in it? My recollection of pre war oval team was the old teenagers and radio Luxembourg? Was it that sort of thing? No,

Speaker 2  12:45  
that's a bit of a title. They they all had to have. They're all they're all down to, roughly, to a pattern in that you had to announce the the the theme, develop it a bit, and then twist it for such as to old routine at the end. Because everything, everything, almost everything,

Roy Fowler  13:12  
had to rely on stress. Were they dramatized situations, or were they bouncing balls?

Unknown Speaker  13:23  
Oh, no, no. Let's take, let's take a

Roy Fowler  13:27  
no, the pre war ones, drive,

Speaker 2  13:30  
I remember drive. Is there

Roy Fowler  13:33  
a date against drive? Now,

Speaker 2  13:36  
right, okay, I can, I, can I get some of these, then we could, you could, you know, slot that in a later date. Drive, meet the old team. Oh, crikey, I remember that one. Trust the expert. Drive, yes, this would be the sort of thing that would happen, because I remember the openness I went to the big power stations, drive and the hurdlers and the power behind the hammer athletics, all this sort of thing.

Roy Fowler  14:20  
And this was all original footage that you would shoot it. You say you went to the power station. How'd you shoot that? How could you light a power station with the money that you had in the stocks that you had then,

Speaker 2  14:33  
oh, we take a couple of lights with us. I see, oh, not the power station. I only wanted the

Roy Fowler  14:41  
a bit of a generator, those lovely things, don't I thought of you lighting barters the past, okay,

Speaker 2  14:54  
that sort of thing. But then we had to twist the story so it all came around to just. Yes, and relaxing sleep at the end with old,

Roy Fowler  15:06  
I think 20 years, 30 years later, I wrote one for them. It was exactly the same. Oh, you wrote for Did you well? I did one. I did one for Poland Dean once because Jack asked me to, I don't think masters even stargazing.

Speaker 2  15:18  
I can't remember, but they were all around that I must have done. Oh, we did,

Speaker 2  15:34  
because it was who was the boss of ogleton. So I went down to this place, because I was, I was, I was hauled over the coals on one of them, because I thought it was rather nice. It was, it was a rustic scene, a farm scene, or something like that. Sequence, like me, I couldn't tell him, but rather nice. If I had the kid riding on the horse, looked rather nice, pretty sick. Couldn't have that child labor. That was the mentality I had to deal with. Oh, Harry, heck. So somebody aid was the boss of Overton. So that had to come over that was, Oh, these things every.com had to be approved by Harry Haig, but kept the business guy very well, yes,

Roy Fowler  16:32  
yes, and it worked for them extremely well in terms of image, any idea what the budgets were

Unknown Speaker  16:45  
no idea, not the fact,

Roy Fowler  16:47  
no, you are you still general dogs body or

Speaker 2  16:51  
no, I've more or less taken there was quite a lot of work one way and another, because then another, I remember another man came on, and he was also a salesman. And there were these, some of these other titles here for other concerns, like, like, oh dear.

Speaker 2  17:19  
Navy, oh no, maybe called Oh, Lord, ancient, modern, these coke. Now those are all different, different that are all DB split. That was big. That was a big I have a picture. Have a studio that I reckon what it was so many of the darn things that only listed about 15 of them there. Oh yes, that was what was happening Cable and Wireless. Quite a quite an elaborate thing.

Speaker 2  18:10  
No, this would be after 39 all worlds of England. That was, that was really something. It was a quite a big exercise, because this was when the time, I know I probably left a bit out, but I don't think it's of any

Roy Fowler  18:27  
Okay, well, the important thing is to try to capture the general feeling. Because

Speaker 2  18:34  
what was, what was happening to me, then I was being borrowed by GBI a bit, and so my sphere of activity was broadening considerably from just a 10 minute commercial 10 minutes, we're talking about Four minutes, something like that at that time, I honestly forgot, no.

Roy Fowler  19:05  
How did they get slotted into the program? How long was the commercial real? Any idea?

Unknown Speaker  19:12  
I know what it was. About 500 feet. Yes, that's

Roy Fowler  19:14  
right, a commercial. How many commercials were shown together in a cinema. Oh, well,

Speaker 2  19:21  
there'd be about 10 minutes of string. Yes, yes, then, because when Pearl and Dean came onto the scene, you know, they'd be there opening, what have you, Pearl and Dean, or whatever, they'd have several commercials, several products.

Roy Fowler  19:38  
Oh, well, yes, yes. But if the real run 10 minutes, that would be, then, what just two or three commercials? Because nowadays the average length is, is 30 summer minutes, so by time,

Speaker 2  19:56  
but having got up to. 39 and we'll forget that. So I hadn't, I hadn't gone to Noah's office. Oh, hang about, hang about. Oh, I've jumped up because I took over,

Speaker 2  20:20  
yes, because from GB screen services, I went straight to city box. So I have left out a big chunk, because I then took over from Andrew Bucha, the weekly magazine, you know, the

Speaker 1  20:35  
one Wheeler magazine. This was when, no, this

Unknown Speaker  20:39  
must have been, I

Roy Fowler  20:43  
and are we still in the 30s?

Unknown Speaker  20:46  
Yeah, and

Unknown Speaker  20:55  
obviously before 39 too

Roy Fowler  21:01  
well to get it clear, we we were in Highbury, and then you went from there to GBI,

Speaker 2  21:08  
or screen, GB, screen, yes, a bit GBI, because that was the Gene Simmons one as well. GBI, see,

Roy Fowler  21:16  
well, Gene Simmons must have been later, wartime, yes, yeah.

Unknown Speaker  21:21  
Or 40 years. I guess I'm sort of running out of steam a bit.

Roy Fowler  21:28  
Well, shall we break here and pick up again? Are we getting a bit tired?

Speaker 2  21:33  
Just any sort of yes coming pause.

Roy Fowler  21:38  
This is the second session with Francis. So we're recording on the seventh of June, 1988 once again, at 111 Water Street. Francis, last time we were, I think, talking around Highbury studios. I don't know if anything more comes to mind about that.

Speaker 2  22:02  
Well, not a not a lot more Roy, because I think I must have said on the previous tape that the chart, it emanated from win ads and Charlie Leeds, who was who then became studio manager of the new hybrid Studios, which was, I'm not quite sure by whom it was actually set up, but a lot of people involved. Campbell black, thanks to Jimmy, thanks to his father, Herbert Wynn Burr. Oh, one or two others. And I can't remember, I could see them on the front line of the opening day of first test shooting. Can we

Roy Fowler  22:56  
talk about those people in so far as you remember them, where they came from?

Speaker 2  23:00  
Well, thanks to was in the building business, I think. But I didn't, I didn't know him personally. Herbert win, of course, was, was an old timer, and of course, I acted right. I didn't know any of them, any other because there's only a proper way

Unknown Speaker  23:31  
to face it was,

Roy Fowler  23:34  
is Donald win.

Unknown Speaker  23:36  
Donald win a song and,

Speaker 2  23:37  
and, yes, Donald Wynn was it was, it was a Sam and who was the other. They all lived at Brighton. I used to see him a lot down there because I worked at Brighton studios. Later, Derek win, Derek win, and

Roy Fowler  24:01  
I was in one of the houses. I can't remember which Derek did. Donald

Unknown Speaker  24:05  
Derek was at home. And I think Donald went to Australia, then he came back.

Roy Fowler  24:11  
Very comfortable, middle class life was being led down.

Speaker 2  24:18  
Had a few sherbets in the taverns down there, and the only other one

Speaker 2  24:33  
or two other people I can remember, because they worked with me later On, George Claire makeup, I think I also said elder wills was the director. His sister Bunty wills was art director. I think I think hay still could have just Jim Han was the buyer. And because I had a motor, little motor car, I was. Lot of flavor as an answer, and probably got the job because of that. As you know, general bar part, set dresser part, every day,

Roy Fowler  25:18  
was everyone on salary, on staff, or were they freelance? In effect,

Speaker 2  25:27  
yes, what weekly period, Oh yes, oh yes, there wouldn't be a staff at that time. What about

Roy Fowler  25:34  
the camera? People? Who was on camera, then

Speaker 2  25:42  
the lighting man, I simply lost his name again. But Jimmy, Jimmy bird Adolph, his brother Adolph. They were on camera as well as I.

Unknown Speaker  26:03  
Coming up in

Roy Fowler  26:05  
the train. I had his name, the burgers, you said they were French. I think. Did you know?

Speaker 2  26:10  
Well, French extract, French origin, the French origin? Yes, yes. And later, Powell kept on crossing one way or another in terms of lighting or operating or

Roy Fowler  26:27  
what did they specialize in? Their names not familiar to me, emerges,

Speaker 2  26:31  
oh, oh, they did. They did a lot of well, modest budget features.

Roy Fowler  26:39  
How old were they at that time, roughly, would you say, Were they your age or young? Oh,

Speaker 2  26:42  
no, a bit bit older. Yeah, a little bit older. Not much. Do

Roy Fowler  26:47  
you know what their career span in terms of time?

Speaker 2  26:55  
Well, no, I can't. Obviously they were, I suppose, reasonably well established to go on a fairly major unit. Well, yes,

Roy Fowler  27:15  
did they work together or separately? Yes,

Speaker 2  27:17  
they very often worked as a team. Jimmy would light and that all foot operate.

Speaker 2  27:29  
And they were on another picture at hybrid, where I was props that I can't, I can't remember the darn picture. It was a, was a, just can't remember the name of it, completely lost, right? There's a farmhouse thing I know, theirs and all,

Roy Fowler  27:47  
but that's, I think the records would yield that up if we wanted to trace it

Unknown Speaker  27:53  
as to hybrid again, like I say, do

Unknown Speaker  28:03  
the leads was the studio manager.

Roy Fowler  28:08  
First name, I suppose these were your bosses and your gods,

Speaker 2  28:14  
oh yes, yes, yes, yes. And basically, yes, basically, was the accountant. I try to visualize the picture I've got up on my wall of the of a unit. Still, a lot of the faces I shouldn't I can I would recognize. Well, not now, of course, but I'm Dan, if I can remember their names, oh, apart from, of course, Geeta alponey of Hamilton, they were the stars. It was nice little studio. I think you asked me before, well, if I if I knew what it was before, I think now upon reflection, it must have been some sort of concert hall, because there was a stage at one end. The far end is about two foot, perhaps Yes, two for six, high three maybe seven, high

Unknown Speaker  29:34  
church hall, perhaps the

Speaker 2  29:38  
community here, something, something like that. Fairly, fairly low building, red brick building in High Bridge, High Bridge, something Road, canteen was right down the far end. Clocks was underground or run up. Op room. That's about all I can remember. I have the of the actual studio. I'm not quite sure what happened after that, with what the next productions were in it, because I I moved on to fast as new. I because I had an opportunity which I couldn't miss after, okay, tell us about that. Well, I think it must have been personal friend of the family. This was Andrew Buchanan, who I thought was absolutely marvelous, because he was so inventive and imaginative. In his one Goon British magazine, one reelers Every week, he used to turn these things out. And Oh, Miss Byrne was his wonderful assistant.

Roy Fowler  31:06  
First name was everyone, Mr. And Miss in those days in business, it was, it was quite formal,

Speaker 2  31:16  
and Anderson was the editor. He was an absolute Marvel encyclopedic memory, because, as you can well imagine, a magazine one reader, he used to have about four top subjects and usually ending up with a sort of musical speciality, and the two cameramen involved, Oh, Charlie Marlborough. Used to call him plus fours Marlborough because I never saw him out of plus force and the other cameraman, I can't remember. See him now, I guess I can remember his name, but they were always hopping around the country on one assignment or the other factories and well, his canvas for so enormous, Bucha covered everything you would do, knows what. And then this, this event, he was, he was stationed at film at film house and the basement film house. So I had to come in contact with him, and he was then giving up the magazine.

Roy Fowler  33:00  
Had he devised it, and so it had

Speaker 2  33:04  
been going for years, and it was a very popular thing, complete social release. And I used to go to see it at the tatter of it. But it was a fascinating one, really. And the magazine was being taken over by Frank green, and Sherwin Green's father, not the other Frank green, of whom we know, king of Water Street, or whatever, king of preview theaters. Joking at preview theater, that's right, and I was offered the offer the job, which is pretty daunting, really, because even now as I sit here, if I turn out a one ring every week. It's quite a quite a stint. Really doesn't sound a lot, but when one goes through the I know there was a certain small amount of library material which Anderson could call on. But then one had to, had to organize the various subjects. And then, then I would, I would particularly shoot the last items in the studio at Albany

Roy Fowler  34:31  
street. So you went as a director, cameraman, or a camera director. Well,

Speaker 2  34:35  
I mean, I took over as the gaffer, as the gapper. Andrew helped me to start off, because he had a particular style of approaching the subjects in his because I wasn't experienced in writing, I was all right when it came to for. A descriptive staff, or whatever

Roy Fowler  35:05  
you like to call it, you will work for us then, roughly in your mid 20s.

Speaker 2  35:11  
Yeah, yeah. So he used to help me with the introductory part, which was he sort of made it his own, had his own thumb mark on there describe

Roy Fowler  35:22  
the real. Was it a full one, real that you had to get out? Yeah,

Speaker 2  35:26  
yes, there would be and there would be a sort of kaleidoscopic introduction, just that the other bits and pieces, some of them taken from the content of the actual reel, and then all linked together to as a, as a, as a, as a lead into the first subject, which could be On, oh, right, my father, he appeared because he was, I think I've said before, he was something of a painter, artist, painter, and he was pretty good at etchings and aquatints and that sort of thing. And they hadn't had a subject on how etchings were made. So we wrote the old boy in and so if you take one rule, which is what roughly 1000 was 900 and something, and you divide it into four, you've got about 200 and something on each subject, according to two minutes, or whatever you see, three minutes maybe, and then there'd be a craft subject, and perhaps An industrial subject, and in a light hearted fashion, something agricultural, for ringing the changes all around and then finishing with a light hearted musical thing, which of course, suited me well, because I was back in my sort of drumming Day. So I used to bring in some of my mates on two guitars and act on a three piano act. All those sort of things would come in. No

Roy Fowler  37:32  
on location. Did you use sound?

Unknown Speaker  37:36  
No, that was all silent.

Roy Fowler  37:37  
What camera were you using?

Unknown Speaker  37:40  
It would be, it would

Unknown Speaker  37:47  
be Sinclair and Marlboro had a strange French job. What that was? A debris,

Roy Fowler  37:58  
debris, I guess yes, these are what hand cranked,

Speaker 2  38:03  
yes, and, of course, and they in The in the studio Vinson, and

Roy Fowler  38:20  
any original music,

Unknown Speaker  38:22  
let's No, no, let's try and

Roy Fowler  38:24  
follow through. It

Unknown Speaker  38:26  
would be disc. It would be recorded library

Roy Fowler  38:28  
music,

Speaker 2  38:30  
yes, and styles, Edwards, yes, Edwin styles, used to narrate it every week for years. And but that was, that was a fascinating thing.

Roy Fowler  38:47  
I was wondering how each individual reel, how long it would be in production. You didn't go from first to last in one week, did you? No, no, no, there was a process of development for

Speaker 2  39:02  
each wheel. I mean, it would see what one would be overlapping, of course, all the time. And and whilst, whilst there might be specified assignments for ARS factory or whatever, or whatever you see, the boys would be out shooting material anyway, in the event that something was wanted from the Library Quick. So there was something a bit of a library to call on. But then, as it got underway, it got less, less and so, oh, the overall period, yes, it would be not so four weeks.

Roy Fowler  39:53  
Was it a rut race, keeping up?

Speaker 2  39:56  
No, but you had to be well on your toes all and. All that, all the time, more than 40 hours a week, presumably, out of your mind, really?

Roy Fowler  40:18  
How many, how many prints would have been made?

Speaker 2  40:22  
Ah, well, it would be Goon circuit. So you can, I don't know what the Goon circuit was in those days, but it was pretty several 100 and several 100, I guess.

Roy Fowler  40:35  
So the program probably consisted of what, a first feature, a second feature, a newsreel, coming attractions and a short subject, that's right, and maybe even a cartoon, yes, and an orbit interview, that's right, and maybe a merry field as well.

Unknown Speaker  40:52  
You got my harvest value then yes,

Roy Fowler  40:53  
yes, GBI,

Speaker 2  40:58  
oh, plus, of course, I uh, sounds of time, whatever it was time, lots of times of time. Marvelous support. Jimmy, yes, what a production it was. But yes, that would be just about the thing. You stayed with it for how long that was about a year or 18 months, something like that. But we didn't. Cracks began to appear. Quite why I didn't get on with too well with one of the boss people, whose name was Kingdom Warner. I've acted I've heard that name several times since another connector where it's the same one, because there's a kingdom Warner explorer at all anyway, and I think also standing in the Wings was Frank green son, Sherwin and

Roy Fowler  42:01  
groomed for stardom,

Speaker 2  42:03  
but his how we got on really well now past course crossed several times and again in later years. So you as I had a opportunity to go back to Spain, I went back to BFI screen and

Roy Fowler  42:38  
it it says, Here it continued. We're talking still of the the magazine. It continued as ace cine magazine. That's right, yes, who and why change the title?

Speaker 2  42:50  
Oh, well, that was Frank Green's idea. Well, we couldn't call it carbon British, could we? I don't know. Well, it wasn't, it was, you see now, when Bucha was doing it, it was a sponsored thing by comont

Roy Fowler  43:06  
independent, now yes, but still distributed by COVID Yes or GFC,

Speaker 2  43:14  
right? Yes. And that was when they had offices down in national house. And

Roy Fowler  43:27  
do you know how long it survived? Did it see the 30s out, for example?

Speaker 2  43:34  
No, no, I don't think it did. It just died. I think, I think I

Speaker 1  43:44  
I can't answer that one right now. Okay, so back to

Roy Fowler  43:47  
gold bridge screen services, yes, mostly commercials or sponsored. Well, then

Speaker 2  43:55  
that, that time, of course, came the ministry of information.

Roy Fowler  44:00  
So we're really up to the war? Are we now? Yes, when I see gotcha,

Speaker 2  44:06  
because of the as I think I said I did. I had left about 38 because I had an opportunity to do something. I thought it was called coward, or, anyways, something to do with Edgar Anstey, who something to do with, something to do with CO well,

Roy Fowler  44:33  
maybe it was a sponsored film by one of the, one of the mining companies.

Speaker 2  44:37  
I really don't, really don't know, had the war started by this? No, no, no, it hadn't. And that's that's why I, I took an office in Warner Street. Yeah, my feet under the desk, and then sir and went,

Roy Fowler  44:51  
is it possible it was, it wasn't, and stay at march of time then, or was that earlier? Is it possible that you. Shooting footage for march of time?

Speaker 2  45:01  
No, no, it was definitely, well,

Roy Fowler  45:05  
I thought maybe they did something about the coal mines.

Unknown Speaker  45:08  
Oh, I see what you mean. Yes, I haven't. I don't think I have any

Roy Fowler  45:13  
record of this answer at one time. I know Yes. Was that march of time?

Unknown Speaker  45:21  
And as I say, I'd hardly got my feet under the desk when Richard siren went.

Roy Fowler  45:27  
How did the war affect you?

Speaker 2  45:30  
Well, I was able and all rest of it, but then, because of my association with the things I was then put on to, well, all this string of service films, a k1 a k2

Roy Fowler  45:54  
what was a k1 and a k2 what was the difference between them? Oh, one was take a zombie. That's right, several people.

Speaker 2  46:04  
I had quite a few surprises in that. I One always used to amuse it, because you start off with going up and being interviewed by a lieutenant, somebody or other. Halfway through the picture, you'd go up and he'd be a flipping captain, and so on and so forth. But one or two, an artist, John of mine was Jeff Sumner, who always used to play silly asses TASH and Damn it. I went up there one time on a one of the one rather, because it made quite a Quite a few of them.

Roy Fowler  46:51  
That's the end of the

Roy Fowler  0:02  
It's inside four. Francis, AK, one. AK, two, if we, for the sake of history, make that distinction. Well, the

Speaker 1  0:11  
best of my recollection, I BECTU, I know what the one and one and two.

Roy Fowler  0:17  
Where were they based?

Unknown Speaker  0:22  
Good question, where the hell would I base the War

Roy Fowler  0:25  
Office, where I used to go? Wembley?

Unknown Speaker  0:28  
No, no, no. I think it must have been, must have been a war office.

Roy Fowler  0:35  
There was another outfit, I think on Cadogan square, wasn't there? I think Freddie Young was someone spoke about that CAD square, yeah, off Sloan Street.

Speaker 1  0:48  
No, no, anyway, no, the only the because there were, there were films for the Army, the Air Force, I did to three that I'll come to that in a second. The Fleet Air Arm. Fleet Air Arm at yellow. That scared the pants off me too. I tell you about that and the Navy.

Unknown Speaker  1:20  
Oh, that lot. Quite a we were kept pretty darn busy with those. With those now, okay, I forget whether there was a difference between the actual

Speaker 1  1:35  
training and instructional. I used to there'd be a training film, and then pure instruction, and then on the other side there'd be something like a morale boosting,

Roy Fowler  1:56  
quite propaganda, moral propaganda.

Unknown Speaker  1:59  
I yeah,

Roy Fowler  2:03  
for service audiences, though,

Speaker 1  2:06  
and this this, I can remember one or two that this was tank, tank warfare in Lincolnshire. Two or three of those. That wasn't so funny either, because we had to. We were shooting a reddish thing up there at a pretty great snowstorm at end of a job finding new setups to so the tank tracks for the tanks didn't show up every time the snow

Roy Fowler  2:49  
were the crews or civilian or were, yes,

Speaker 1  2:53  
they were the same. We were taken off commercials. You see

Roy Fowler  2:57  
the service input was, was what? Just supervision and briefing, briefing your unit so that you

Speaker 1  3:07  
Yes, you could go up to, must have been a war office, yes, and see the captain or the major who is in, who had that particular brief, and he'd say, we want to, we're going to do a thing on anti tank warfare, as one of them comes to mind. And you'll go to Lincoln and report to major farms, barns

Unknown Speaker  3:40  
and then you work out a script, then go and shoot it and see you in three months time, or something rather. You know, it's all pretty,

Unknown Speaker  4:02  
pretty cozy. Were you shot side

Roy Fowler  4:04  
shooting? What 35 still, yes. 35

Speaker 1  4:09  
Bren Brendan Stafford, yes. He was, can remember then and Frank north and John Douglas was on sound used to have the have the old Goon sound truck always falling apart. Also, I remember we always had far too much load on it. And Powell John had to go and hold the breakers in and that it was all

Unknown Speaker  4:54  
cut. Shall I go on to the Air Force? One?

Roy Fowler  4:58  
Well, you were going to talk a. Are some of the individual instances, pictures and incidents. Were you not You said that you would tell us about certain things. What are some of your recollections of working on these various films? Were they very secure, although they weren't particularly were they because they were just intended for general audiences? Were they General Service audiences? Indoctrination?

Speaker 1  5:22  
Oh, well, no, we had to be screened because see later on, when I went to to Chatham, we were working on the inside of, then the miniture submarine, which was whatever it was. So, so we all had to go through the whatever it was. Oh, yes, we all had to, apart from that, you see later on, Roy, we did a lot of moi stuff. Anyway, Jack Beddington, Beddington, and all that gang, but more of that matter. Now, the actual, the

Unknown Speaker  6:14  
actual making of the things it was, it was, it was rather interesting in a in a way to me, because I

Speaker 1  6:28  
tried to bring a bit of my feeling for, for not entertainment, that's the one word. But theater, should we say to even an instructional film? Because you've got these, after all, they're being made for this particular purpose, and if the damn things aren't going to hold interest, you might just as well not do them. And so always interspersed, where's the actual hard instructional stuff I would try, and if I saw it, or if I didn't see it, make it an opportunity for a little bit of light heartedness or even a bit of comedy. Was that acceptable? That was quite acceptable because they realized that if they'd be half an hour long or something. Well, that's out of a time to sit through this dreary stuff. And one or two of them sort of thought I was a little bit flippant on occasions.

Roy Fowler  7:57  
But Were you impressed by the service people that you were dealing with, or perhaps not.

Speaker 1  8:04  
I think impressed might exaggeration is a slight exaggeration, but they all came from curious. They were just, just like us, but in it with a very big cap. I mean, in a uniform. It wasn't, it

Roy Fowler  8:20  
wasn't all the dead wood from the 30s or clinging on

Speaker 1  8:26  
new, new pods. I can't just think of the other I might come, might come back to them. It's not terribly I can't think of any sort of thing outstanding on the army ones, they weren't particularly exciting. The other ones were much more exciting,

Roy Fowler  8:50  
right? Well, we get on to those. One question last, did you have to work to a budget?

Speaker 1  8:58  
Yes, yes. The it was an athlete to a degree, but I had to keep I had to let them have

Unknown Speaker  9:15  
production, weekly production, progress, progress reports and all that sort of thing to keep, keep them in as to

Speaker 1  9:29  
the progress of the picture, because we did the whole thing from start, you know, from A to z,

Roy Fowler  9:38  
what would you had on the unit? I

Unknown Speaker  9:43  
two on camera, one on Sound

Roy Fowler  9:48  
Editor, one on sound

Unknown Speaker  9:52  
Oh, no, no. Two maintenance,

Roy Fowler  9:56  
yes. What sort of equipment were you. Using sound Paul, it

Unknown Speaker  10:03  
was the sound truck. Oh,

Roy Fowler  10:06  
who would have been in the truck? More people. That was the maintenance man.

Speaker 1  10:11  
Now, johnny douglas would be in the truck on the actual knobs, right? Oh, because it'd be a boom operator, right? Yes. Be free. You

Roy Fowler  10:20  
have what the bull man, yeah, the mixer, yeah and maintenance, yes, yes, anyone additional on the sound camera? No, because optical sound is almost completely forgotten about.

Speaker 1  10:33  
Yes, yes, oh yes, oh Lord Yes, because it sound on film. Oh yes, I forgot that. Then

Roy Fowler  10:45  
continuity, yeah, assistant director, dog's body.

Speaker 1  10:52  
I have Yes, I did have an assistant. I did have an assistant. Here's the dog's body, his name, I forgot

Roy Fowler  11:02  
if and this was your steady unit, or did it change with each picture?

Speaker 1  11:08  
Pretty well. Steady is because when, when we weren't on these, then we were back at film house

Unknown Speaker  11:20  
and on the few commercials that we were allowed to make, I forget what Jackson did, but there was a certain were

Roy Fowler  11:30  
they commercial still or, oh yes, commercial still. Not the MOI instructional stuff,

Speaker 1  11:34  
but they came up just a little bit later, and that's when I went around to where it was square. He's not used to great big white building,

Roy Fowler  11:48  
the Senate House, the Senate House of London University.

Speaker 1  11:53  
That's right, that's right, yeah, oh, that's it. That's it. That's it. Yes, and that's where I met up with, got a number of my not exactly heroes, but people whom I'd heard a great deal and met only frequently, like Paul Rosa and Edgar asked you, and Arthur Elton, well,

Roy Fowler  12:22  
we'll talk about those dear stock was, what nine, very short supply, I suppose, is it did you have to be very rigorous

Speaker 1  12:29  
to watch it pretty carefully,

Roy Fowler  12:34  
and was there an average shooting period or a very good subject? I suppose, why?

Speaker 1  12:39  
But yes that they didn't like us. Wait too long Well now they did TV because of the watering and feeding. I forget whether we Yes, it was they were pretty they were pretty strict on the budgeting, because if we did go over, we had to have a damn good explanation as to why. Like, for example, when I was up in Lincoln, we had these damn snowstorms. Well, COVID me for a bit.

Roy Fowler  13:08  
I assumed there were no luxuries in all. With Francis, you didn't check into the best hotel in town,

Unknown Speaker  13:13  
not the best hotel, but

Roy Fowler  13:17  
reasonable. Yes, what would a per diem have been in those days. Any idea, what did, what did the technician survive on?

Unknown Speaker  13:34  
Or, I suppose we would be in the neighborhood of the 30s a week, 3530 75

Roy Fowler  13:42  
that's what GB paid you. But I was wondering, when you went on the on location, what your allowance would have been, and given the cost of living in those days. Oh, I see, you know, hotel room would have been, what about two pounds? I suppose, a night, if that, if that, Oh, yeah. And a meal. If you had a good meal with my Bob during the war, couldn't you? Fact, there was a limit, I think, on the price of restaurant meals.

Unknown Speaker  14:07  
Yes, oh, it, it's, it's, no, it's so low it doesn't even show on the meter.

Speaker 1  14:19  
It was, all right. It was, it was, it was adequate, rather more than adequate, because one got on very well with the officers, and you were invited in the mess.

Roy Fowler  14:28  
Now I'm trying to establish the cost of things and the way one lived in those days for the record. Because, again, it's, it's such a different world looking back, oh

Speaker 1  14:39  
my goodness, my goodness. Well, right on, right on for quite a time. The you know,

Speaker 1  14:52  
anybody in the 30s, 40s and up to 50s was in big money. Yes.

Speaker 1  15:00  
So that's what I got later on, 50 for writing, producing, directly, though bloody love, yes.

Roy Fowler  15:06  
But even now you're making what around 30, you think? But then, yes, at this stage of the

Speaker 1  15:11  
war, I should, I think no, upon reflection, I think that's high must be, must be, must be. Got it. I I've got budgets as on my early ones, but not, not back that far. No, it's, it's okay when you know, when you think of it in those days. Hello, 500 a year was it was a was a figure, wasn't it 1000 a year,

Roy Fowler  15:41  
I would think so. Yes. Well, that was sort of bank managers style and

Speaker 1  15:49  
a crisp five pound note. Big, big five pounds

Roy Fowler  15:53  
point of discussion.

Unknown Speaker  16:02  
Okay? You were

Roy Fowler  16:05  
you then moved on to more interesting things. You said,

Speaker 1  16:08  
Oh, well, then, then came the Air Force, because a great charm of mine, on the musical side was Rex Burroughs, who had

Speaker 1  16:32  
whether he worked for me before then, or whether it was afterwards On the British however, a buddy of his was Wing Commander, Wing Commander, Wing Commander, Bill Williams. Bill Williams and we used to take the wine and the old Wellington and breaks introduced me to Bill Williams, who was, who is the Air Force Film Unit, because he had had experience in the past some sort rather, which allowed him to be in that family. He was a Wing Commander, and I was introduced to him, and he looked at my track record, all right, come up and see me. So I go out and see him, and I did three pictures for the Air Force and the boss man that time. What happened to be just coincidence was happened to be a patient of my brothers, for my brothers and dentists and and

Unknown Speaker  18:07  
that's gone, high up, high up number doesn't matter, doesn't matter. And the first one was at strategy Hall, I think.

Speaker 1  18:25  
Forget whether that was bomber or fighter. Anyway, one for the Bomber Command, one for the wife

Unknown Speaker  18:35  
with Felicity, somebody or other. She was the boss woman, the smasher to that, I think, air woman that was called, and then one for the Fleet Air Arm down at YoVille,

Speaker 1  18:57  
because this was the time when, unhappily, a lot of pilots were being lost because of at the time, not at the, not at the, not at the not at the point of target or anything, But on the home ground after, after the missions, because of their bad landings and lack of faith in the night flying, what have You so on. And so we had, we did, I forget what the maintenance of the thing doesn't matter. To

Unknown Speaker  19:46  
go down there with these Fleet Air Arm boys who were sort of ACE blokes,

Speaker 1  19:53  
and did a one of these things on night flying, which was pretty damn flight, because I had to go up in one of these. You. Two seaters, jobs trainer, because they were flying spits and hurricanes there, down there. And forget the name of the of the trainer, it doesn't matter. But what needs to happen is to go up in this and then they put a hood right over the thing. And you'd have to listen to the to the sounds coming up from the, you know, BP, the songs as you put near and near the touchdown point, which is a little bit scary. And I can well imagine how the poor pilots must have felt.

Roy Fowler  20:41  
You did it to experience it, oh yeah, because you couldn't film anything.

Unknown Speaker  20:49  
And that was really nice assignment terms. There were grand people down there.

Speaker 1  21:02  
This was this was in the day when the Gremlin was, was very much the name of the thing. And I had an assistant. I took an instant. He was a freelance broker. He also got instantly disliked him, because he turned up in some bloody great expensive sheep, sheep lined suede jacket. How was your bloody thing? Cocky bloke, anyway, we took it out on him, because we were shooting right over the far side of the perimeter on what and so I organized was the was the lads, the officers, swell bunch. Drunky, somebody. I can't remember the names of the others, but these were the blokes pranking airplanes every day. But then to make much difference anyway, he was given a box and told to visit container Gremlin, get it round to the Film Unit as carefully she had to walk about a mile round a valley perimeter to deliver this Gremlin to another officer in rate took him down a pig. I don't think I saw him in the sheepsco thing, sheep coating, yeah, and then, oh. Then, of course, the pleasant one was the wife one. And again, of course, it was bothers records or recorded Oh from Oh, oh, what's in there? Oh, Bill title, oh, Norman's Film Library, yes. Crack he used to use music from all these people you know to fit the move and what have you. That was the job I liked doing, of course, selecting

Roy Fowler  23:16  
music, yes. And

Unknown Speaker  23:25  
then in the Navy, Chatham submarines, there pretty Hush, hush. And I think that's, I think that covers it.

Roy Fowler  23:50  
That's the service stuff. I think the worry,

Unknown Speaker  23:53  
yes, I think there was other stuff that I

Roy Fowler  23:58  
haven't you don't remember. It couldn't have been, do be careful of the pages, frankly, a hell of a noise.

Well, then you've got what the MOI subjects? Yes, yes. How did you get to work for the moi? Was that still Goon British?

Speaker 1  24:19  
Yes, yes. Well, it was, it was, there weren't many, many established small unit organizations operating, and so we were sort of invited to make application if we felt so inclined, and interviewed with Jack Pennington and quite we were then allocated certain subjects. I was very. Six, right there, isn't it? Yes,

Roy Fowler  25:03  
they seem quite technical. Are they artillery and anti tank? Role? For example, that's that must be service directed,

Unknown Speaker  25:13  
service oriented. Yes.

Roy Fowler  25:17  
Tell us what you remember about the MOI your dealings with them, Jack Beddington and COVID,

Speaker 1  25:28  
or I can remember Jack, I used to think on this sort of silky Jack Beddington. He was such a

Speaker 2  25:36  
laid back he was swayed. Was he? Oh, yes. And

Speaker 1  25:44  
look around the table of that underlings, his eyes half closed, but a very nice, nice enough chap, very nice. And I think, oh yes, there's another his, his number thing, yes, Roger Burford, oh, gosh, yes. I think with whom we dealt with more than Beddington, because he was a sort of top of the top of the peep. And once one had an assignment like for citizens, advice for a heavy hospital, nurse, first aid on civil defense, ambulance, yes,

Speaker 1  26:35  
one would then be assigned a well virtually, a prod sort of thing, you know, to see the to see the assignment through to its conclusion, one would have script conference with them,

Unknown Speaker  26:55  
and then go away and write the scripts and the usual procedure. Which I used to do, and then go and shoot it well, that is it. And

Speaker 1  27:20  
get approval or at every at every stage, and shoot it and edit it and cut it. Cut it, whatever. Let's see the cutting

Unknown Speaker  27:36  
copy shoot to the dubbing,

Roy Fowler  27:40  
no personalities that you can remember other than I mean, in other words, I'm curious about the people who were working there. Was it at moi? Yes, at the moi? Was it a very bureaucratic organization, inward looking, jockeying for power position? Well,

Speaker 1  27:57  
if it was I, you weren't aware I wasn't on the big time stuff like some of these brokes who made first features. Well, what's his name, damn it, quarter

Roy Fowler  28:12  
and what? Yeah, not quarter, really, because, well, Mickey Powell. Oh, Mickey Powell did, of course, yes, I think Sydney did, didn't he? Sydney marks?

Unknown Speaker  28:25  
Oh, that's right, yes.

Roy Fowler  28:30  
But insofar as you were concerned, you it was just a job. We

Unknown Speaker  28:35  
meet up in the in the Nellie dean or the trip or the thing up the road here, and have have chats, but I think I've actually mentioned the People that I can remember around the table. Yes,

Speaker 1  29:09  
no, I can, I can think it was anything. It was all terrible, gentlemanly,

Roy Fowler  29:16  
right? Well, it was just to hope we might turn up some little undercurrents there. So you stayed with them. What through through the war, more or less,

Unknown Speaker  29:28  
yes,

Unknown Speaker  29:31  
okay,

Unknown Speaker  29:34  
because I was still at, still at film house on D Day,

Unknown Speaker  29:49  
you kept busy.

Speaker 1  29:51  
Oh yes, yes, oh yes, they were thriving. Oh so at this time, Roy, there were all these British Council jobs, yes, thriving for.

Unknown Speaker  30:01  
Nice assignments. They were at two, 2b hospital subjects, King abers hospital fund. Oh, and, of course, other rather interesting, Jolly interesting. Oh, from Christ

Speaker 1  30:24  
whilst I was screened, you know, the Anglo Iranian oil company all ask yourself for the lamps of England printing Pat O'Brien's thing, oil wells of England? Yes, that was really exciting.

Roy Fowler  30:40  
Did you go go to Iran? Did you go to Iran?

Speaker 1  30:44  
No, this, this was, this was at a time when publicity was wanted, when a lot of the carrier ships were being sunk and so on, and oil wells were being drilled in Lincolnshire, really, yes, and it was really quite an exciting time, because

Unknown Speaker  31:11  
I was stationed at, I remember, in a minute, in link in in the Lincolnshire area, anyway, Ecclesfield, or something like that. And we were approached by the Anglo Iranian company. I think it was

Speaker 1  31:41  
to make this about a 20 minute. I think it was

Unknown Speaker  31:48  
half an hour. No, as I never half hour subject on the finding and drilling for oil up in Lincolnshire, and the amount of ship tonnage at the saving for a war effort thing. So I went up there with the unit. Oh, had a one or two

Speaker 1  32:21  
conferences here, first, of course, to get the general briefing and right through from the geo visit geophysical. Geo, Geo, yes, one of the taps of who search out the oil drill to design doesn't matter well then, doesn't matter how they how they would, how they had been all over The area of making test shots and the test drills and shots and estimating the amount of gas and all this. And also stationed there was a an oil unit from Texas who were there to train the lime is and it was rather amusing because they they were real, or about 20 or more, after those marvelous blokes, and they took over half a monastery, If you please, as their headquarters. Rather amusing. Their crap games and what have you.

Roy Fowler  33:46  
Who's running GBI at this point? Or GBI, yeah, okay, oh yes, it's now well and truly part of the rank organization, I guess. Yeah, yes, yes, yes. Did that affect the operations at all when it was acquired by rank, just allowed to go on the same way, right? So this, then is that period of making either state or sponsored material?

Speaker 1  34:19  
Yes, a lot of sponsor stuff I was doing then, rather interesting subjects, the British Council, of course, the king Edwards thing, and then the student nurse, which was quite an elaborate one,

Roy Fowler  34:39  
the war is still on

Speaker 1  34:44  
just about coming to the thing, because when it went on, when student Earth went on release, that was when Sydney box saw it. And so it must have been after all right, 40 sorry. 46 Yes. 46 some. On, yes.

Roy Fowler  35:00  
Well, no, there was over in 46 oh,

Unknown Speaker  35:04  
yes, 45 Yeah,

Roy Fowler  35:08  
I'm scope see if I can get those. But France is what we've been stopped. I gather you've remembered the name of that cameraman that we couldn't

Speaker 1  35:17  
figure yes at Penn Highbury elder wills. His cameraman was Mr. Stalish.

Unknown Speaker  35:25  
I'm afraid I can't remember his, his Christian name, although, although not as terribly important, the picture I have has got his initial on the clapperboard that features in the stickle that

Roy Fowler  35:46  
will cease then to worry. Well, have we come to the end of your period in sponsored films? Do you think are we now moving into your features? Yes,

Speaker 1  36:00  
we have, I mean, what is down?

Roy Fowler  36:10  
Unless there was something special about a particular film? I don't think there's much point now to minute detail.

Unknown Speaker  36:17  
They're all i

Speaker 1  36:23  
and the films with Austin Motor Company were jolly interesting,

Roy Fowler  36:30  
yes, but they would film production

Speaker 1  36:36  
just what was, of course, so fascinating about this work was a constant variety, and you had to this is, you know, this is one of the things, one of the most important things, which, unhappily, of course, is not around these days. And that's the training of directing on your feet and in all circumstances and under all conditions. Well, that's, that's really, let's

Roy Fowler  37:09  
expand on that, because let's talk about the lessons that so far you've learned in life, in your craft.

Unknown Speaker  37:18  
Oh, well, that's do. Obviously, it was very much a hidden mess thing. But

Roy Fowler  37:32  
everyone, of course, was taught on the job in those days,

Speaker 1  37:38  
no schools. I kind. I won't go into the school things I don't know anything about it. I rightly or wrong to have a feeling that it's got to be in something inside a person that, rather than what's given them over a desk or a school or anything like that, as I say, directly on your feet, whether it's an engineering thing or A hospital thing or an agricultural thing or the variety of work was so great, and which COVID made it fascinating. Work didn't matter, of course, again, Roy in those in those days, whether it's what was morally right or wrong, I don't know going to go into that, but I didn't care how long, I mean, well, worked. I just loved it and got the job done. It was a craft and wasn't ever lasting a watch, or if I had one, I suppose I did, but that I learned an enormous amount that way. And I think, as I've said before, because I had an eight sense of theater. I didn't overdo the dramatization element of the of the subject, but of but if there was a machine, I tried to make it come to life, so to speak, rather than a block of cast iron going round. Were you

Roy Fowler  39:43  
working with what are called real people, or

Speaker 1  39:48  
professional actors? Oh, no, no. All real people all the time, well, except some of the MOI things. No had artists. Gerald John Slater, well. And I can't remember now.

Roy Fowler  40:13  
No, I was curious, because you're about to move into acting. Actors, what experience you had? I say you were just about to move into, Oh, I see what you mean, a different kind of directing, as it were. Yes, that's true. So you know, where had you gained preparation for that? But you've been dealing with people, which is really what it's about, not

Speaker 1  40:35  
only dealing with people, but dealing with scripts and dialog,

Roy Fowler  40:40  
etc. What were you best at at this stage? Would you say as a director?

Speaker 1  40:46  
Oh, yes, I find writing still do to this day, very hard, because I am provisional when I'm fine at

Speaker 1  41:09  
visual sequences. I'm not only good on writing of dialog, which I think I've always thought, it's a highly expert.

Roy Fowler  41:18  
Oh yeah, that's often the way.

Speaker 1  41:21  
There are some people, of course, when I've had to take scripts written by literary people, the bloody things want drastic, drastic, you know, visual carpentry on them. However, that's part of my job.

Roy Fowler  41:41  
Well, here we are. So yes, sir, in 4546 and you have an offer, is it? Yes, the future? Yes,

Speaker 1  41:50  
I was, I was still at GD on the fifth No, that, of course, during the war we all had, we were used to have our offices on the fifth floor to come on film house, all of his floor and the cutting rooms. Now, when as of 39 we had to go down into the basement, there were a few offices down there, so the news boys had their headquarters anyway, and we were parked in these little cubby holes down in the basement of film house, along with GB equipment, oh, there's another area. GB equipments, old, totally, totally, yes. GB equipments, they were 16 mill stuff machines, what have you all that sort of thing, a rental outfit wasn't, no, I said they used to sell to industries. Well, yes, I did exhibition work, all this sort of thing, substandards, work. And so we were all parked down in the in, I don't know whether constant night came down there as well. He was a new boss. No, I think they parked him on the first floor. He was reasonably All right, and of course, we would go out and do our roof spotting. And remember being up there when the projected thing came down, either outside or not far from the recent Paris hotel here, which wasn't too clever, Bas bomb days. Where did it hit? I think it didn't hit the hotel, but where the hell would it

Roy Fowler  43:55  
be? Oh, wasn't there one on Shaftesbury? There used to be a big site there that have been bombed. I think where that, where the bank is anyway,

Speaker 1  44:10  
doesn't doesn't have, I know every time I used to come up, every day, it was a different way of getting up here, because of craters and, goodness knows what else. But still, that's and it was whilst we were Mansfield. Mansfield was the head quarters for the oil wells of England. And it's whilst we were up there, we read about the buzz bombs,

Unknown Speaker  44:32  
and didn't, didn't about the idea of driving back into this. Yes, we were saying, Oh yes, yes, that comes to 46

Speaker 1  44:47  
is was beginning 47 something like that, Master bean, when Sydney box saw the theatrical Don. Documentary that I'd done for a British Council called student nurse Queen Elizabeth Hospital Birmingham, which did have a theatrical release and was on the Dominion

Unknown Speaker  45:13  
and I had met him once or twice, because he was mainly concerned with earlier on, before he'd gone, become a big noise, then with instructional stuff and all manner of non theatricals. And he was he'd made seventh frail to make his name, and was on a picture called years between and the other director at the time there was Compton Bennett, Bob Bennett,

Unknown Speaker  45:55  
and he was On location somewhere Surrey way, I think it was. And I was asked to go out and see him. So

Speaker 1  46:07  
I went out and had a really nice suffer with him and Muriel box. And he said he was going to make a picture called girl in the million, and he'd seen my fairly humble effort at the Dominion. It was good, and he reckon I could make pictures what I'd like to do it? I

Roy Fowler  0:04  
This is Francis suicide. Five Francis will have to go back a bit to overlap there. Yes, you went out to have dinner, okay with Sydney and Muriel and they had the script, yes, right, to pick it up from there, right?

Speaker 1  0:17  
The the subject was going to do, Steve's going to do was a nice, light, pleasant comedy.

Roy Fowler  0:30  
The script exists, does it? Oh, yes,

Speaker 1  0:32  
he and Muir had written the script. It was called Girl and minion, and it was for Star John Greenwood, Michael, Michael, who was the who was the star was an eagle on Michael wilding, Michael wilding, battle rap and Norton Wayne

Unknown Speaker  0:58  
Hartley, power Powell, uh, Gary Marsh, oh, dear Warner, those Michael wilding had to fall out and Hugh Williams took his place Tim Williams, and that was to be shot at Sydney's headquarters in which was Riverside Studios,

Speaker 1  1:34  
which was a two state studio, if you

Unknown Speaker  1:42  
want the personnel? As I can remember them? Yes,

Roy Fowler  1:44  
it would be very good to get them. I think, well,

Unknown Speaker  1:49  
sound Geraldine Burgess, I

Unknown Speaker  2:03  
now lighting reswire,

Speaker 1  2:12  
assistant director called Pinky green. Do

Roy Fowler  2:21  
you remember a young man called Walter LA? Yes,

Speaker 1  2:24  
yes, that was Walters first job. Yes. Editing, Sega, operator. I Oh yes, because of a shooting on a very awful straight look through debris, which was terrible. Had to look through the film all the time. I Oh, I can see him now. The operator can't remember his name,

Unknown Speaker  3:15  
crew, crew, oh, actually, I've got the blessed crew.

Roy Fowler  3:23  
If it's written down, we don't need to struggle for it. I'd be curious your memories of first meeting Sydney and Muriel box?

Unknown Speaker  3:32  
Well, I had, I hadn't met Muriel before I had met Sydney, but I only sort of just met him at all.

Speaker 1  3:53  
He was a great big bald headed, beaming character. Very nice bloke, really. I got on fine with him. You liked him? Oh yes, I didn't get on quite so well with Muriel right on.

Unknown Speaker  4:13  
I don't, I don't know,

Roy Fowler  4:19  
was she forbidding? Unfriendly? Yes,

Speaker 1  4:21  
she was a bit, she was a bit, Forbid, that was but, but I think this was just authority. Probably she was a very clever woman, very good writer, very clever. Did

Roy Fowler  4:36  
you trust Sydney?

Unknown Speaker  4:40  
Oh, I think so, yes.

Roy Fowler  4:44  
What sort of reputation did he have? This is just after seven days so he was,

Speaker 1  4:49  
he was riding high and looking for other opportunities. Well, of course, our opportunities very soon came his way as well. And happily, I Bob Bennett went over to Goon because he was a contract man and I wasn't, but I did stay on to do an OH. Jim Carter was the art director, marvelous man. Well, let's

Roy Fowler  5:21  
talk. Talk about the film. This is your first feature. What do you remember about making? Well, what sort of budget did it have? It

Speaker 1  5:30  
was round at that round about 90,000 which was quite a bit of money in 3737 47 can memory goes back to back in 10 years leaps now, the film, it was a, it was a absolutely charming film based on a very, very, very old I story, I forget you probably know it, or the woman who talked too much. No, sorry, I can't even story. There. Yeah, yes, the woman had talked too much, and then, because of a terrible accident, she goes down and then gets her voice back. Everybody wishes to that's not a very good way of telling the story. Well,

Roy Fowler  7:01  
the stories. It's a matter of how movies were made. Yes,

Speaker 1  7:08  
well, it was a it was the cameras. I say was, was was the look through debris, which was,

Roy Fowler  7:16  
No, I meant the production methods. Oh,

Speaker 1  7:22  
well, I had every every facility, every feature thing available,

Roy Fowler  7:27  
available to me. So even a small two stage studios such as Riverside was fully equipped. All the shops and all the crafts were

Speaker 1  7:41  
big, big blasters and clippers and everything, right? Oh, Peter Duke, marvelous man. He was construction man, wonderful man.

Roy Fowler  7:54  
The schedule was how long? Five? Of five, five weeks, five or six weeks. Was that considered to be short, medium long? That was about what, yes. Was Riverside, an efficient studio.

Speaker 1  8:18  
It was pretty good. Yes, it was, Well, you see, it had come up and had got quite a reputation as a result of of seventh day. So it was looked upon as a house to be regular with. Sort of thing.

Roy Fowler  8:39  
Did you have any worries going on to the set that first day?

Speaker 1  8:43  
Oh, yes, it was, it was being of a Novi disposition. Anyway, it was a bit daunting, particularly as Hugh Williams wasn't the easiest of chaps. Joan was fine, but he was a little bit on the up market. Basil and Norton were absolutely now, there's no problems there that isn't have any

Roy Fowler  9:15  
hiccups. What about the crew? Were they cooperative? Crew was fine. They were on the side of the director every

Speaker 1  9:21  
time. Yes. Reg wire was marvelous. I worked with him before. Anyway, of course, the other, the other big star was Eileen Joyce and the and the random simply orchestra, because she played the Taser Frank variations and a beautiful model pier of Brighton Eastbourne Pier. And he was yes, Eastbourne pier was built at South Hall, which we blew up, which was fun. And. And because, in the story, a mine hits one of the one of the stanchions, and close up the thing, which was jolly interesting, because they had the full, full large stage. And in the foreground we had a had a ramp with seats on it, on chocks. My camera behind it, so at the time of the explosion and knocked away the trucks, of course, and the whole of the ramp shattered quite faint.

Roy Fowler  10:38  
Who did the special effects? That sounds fairly elaborate for British films,

Unknown Speaker  10:41  
no special effects,

Roy Fowler  10:45  
just the floor crew. Just the floor

Speaker 1  10:47  
crew. The only special special effect was the blowing up the pier, which done with a high speed camera.

Speaker 1  10:59  
Actually Jimmy Harley did it, but it was quite a good blow up.

Roy Fowler  11:06  
Anyway, these, I'm not sure this was the precise period, but were the labor problems in those days? Was there a great deal of jurisdictional dispute in the studio that you were aware of. No,

Speaker 1  11:22  
the thing was that prior to that, I had, that was when I joined act, because it was political to do. I was sort of, wasn't wildly enthusiastic one way or the other, but I thought it was the best thing to do. So we'll talk about it.

Roy Fowler  11:48  
We'll talk about the union separately at one stage. Well, yeah, we'll say that as as a particular Yeah, subject usually do, what? What other aspects of production in 1946 Do you remember? Mean anything now that you look back on with horror or delight, not just specifically this picture, but the ways of making films, the conditions of the industry at that time?

Speaker 1  12:22  
No, the conditions were far more pleasurable they are today, much, much nicer camerady amongst everybody.

Roy Fowler  12:41  
But would you say people worked hard? Oh, yes, they

Speaker 1  12:44  
worked hard, all right. The the, the way, didn't have the strict lines of demarcation so much as the bigger ones were having. When there was a vast amount of restrictive stuff going on. You can't shift this sick making which, of course, which didn't appeal to me at all. I didn't go with this sort of thing. Still don't, but doesn't matter. But I hope we never had any any, any labor problems as that, or the out of all the Powell to guys, which I did later on, just a little bit later on, the because I say the feeling was, was much more pleasant and studios than it is today. The now, I don't know we weren't we weren't taken advantage

Roy Fowler  14:01  
of, were you under contract to box over or it was just a picture? Yes, it

Speaker 1  14:07  
was. But because he had to move off, he couldn't take up the option,

Roy Fowler  14:11  
and the rank organization weren't tempted.

Speaker 1  14:15  
Well, now, you know, they've got quite a few people down there. Old Dave McDonald was there at the bush, at the bush and so on.

Roy Fowler  14:24  
These are the two films listed at Riverside, things happen at night, and love story

Unknown Speaker  14:31  
Jim Carter. That was Alfred Shipman, who actually studios. They were, of course. Oh, and the studio manager was Kirk.

Unknown Speaker  14:50  
Mark Rubens was the accountant. Remember him? Can somebody was a studio manager. I. Then Jim Carter

Speaker 1  15:09  
and Lee clues, Jack Lee clues, they had a subject called the poltergeist, or rather, things happen at night, which was based on the positive Geist with Harker Dayton and hare and some of the good old strawberries artists.

Roy Fowler  15:33  
Was it a farce? Very

Speaker 1  15:35  
nearly, yes, yes, a pretty bored comedy. We did that, partly at Riverside and partly at Southall. Sorry, partly, partly at Southall. Why did you use two studios? Do you remember? Because they were all part of the shipment, Riverside and Southall, which, by some miracle, Jim managed to keep Jim Carter managed to keep going during the war. Couldn't say how he did it, material and stuff, but he was a great one for getting things done. What?

Roy Fowler  16:17  
What sort of deal would a director make in those days? What was it worth? Yeah, 1200 pounds, right? It was a flat fee for directing, not, not so many weeks. And if you went over, right? And what were you supposed to deliver for that? Just shooting the picture. You which would take, what would you say? Two months, two months, right? Did you have an input into the script? Were you expected? No, you were handed a script. I

Speaker 1  16:53  
was handed a script, and we went through it, and if anything I didn't particularly like or couldn't, do you discuss with the writer. I discussed with Sydney and Muriel, right? I was gonna say you discussed

Roy Fowler  17:04  
with the writers who happened to be also the producers, not very helpful always. And

Speaker 1  17:10  
the same with the poltergeist on that I want terrible experience because dear old Alfred Jackson, I'd shot all the big stuff at Riverside, and I shall not forget that, because on the first day, I had a quick high top shot of the entire studio and A band and dancers and goons. I had a camera right up in the balcony, and started off up there, sort of pretty usual, open to the type of thing, which is effective, of course. And then, you know, panned off onto the onto the dance floor. Only four rushes. The operator forgot to pull focus.

Roy Fowler  18:09  
Extraordinary, which

Speaker 1  18:11  
wasn't a very good days to start, to the day's rush

Roy Fowler  18:14  
indeed. Where did he get the operator from? Did he stay? Was that a firing matter? Oh,

Speaker 1  18:26  
Leslie rausten was lighting. I never understood it, because, even with a bench and will you put it when you put a focus with them, and thing goes across anyway, bound to know whether it's heartless and right, we shot all all the big stuff there, of course, with a view to picking up smaller stuff, small stage.

Roy Fowler  18:55  
They hadn't struck the set. Oh no,

Unknown Speaker  19:01  
no, but I could, I couldn't use it

Roy Fowler  19:06  
any insurance for such.

Speaker 1  19:10  
Oh, he was to knock something off my berm. Share. George pack and

Roy Fowler  19:21  
was Shipman an active producer, or he was just the executive financier who was the line producer in the picture? Anyone of interest?

Speaker 1  19:32  
Lee clues. Jack Lee clues was the producer and Jim Carter, well, in association with Jim Carter, but Alfred ship can present, but having shot all the big stuff there, Alfred Drake and has a heart attack almost at the end of the picture. And I couldn't finish that well, not as I wanted to finish that big sequence. So he had to get the poor old darling from the hospital after a break, and just lay him on the floor and get him to lift his head and grin. Was that the end of him. That was the end of him, but he lived on, of course, but couldn't have happened at a worse time, on a on a on a sequence which is all but finished, indeed, further, but the rest of it was a lot of fun, other fun. What

Roy Fowler  20:40  
sort of release did a picture get in those days? British lion.

Unknown Speaker  20:44  
British lion, yeah. British lion.

Roy Fowler  20:47  
ABC. Release, what sort of bookings?

Unknown Speaker  20:51  
Well, circuit release, yeah,

Roy Fowler  20:55  
the top

Speaker 1  20:56  
or bottom half of the bill? Oh yes. Top half of the bill, yes, oh yes, yes.

Roy Fowler  21:00  
These were what they days of British the British industry, yes, it was beginning.

Speaker 1  21:11  
The things were beginning to show a bit, because the healing was all top of the things as well, wasn't

Roy Fowler  21:19  
it? Well, yes, bit early, I suppose a bit early for

Unknown Speaker  21:25  
healing. After that,

Roy Fowler  21:28  
they were coming along. I guess they active. Obviously, the great reputation came later. In fact, I guess it began about 47 with human cry, didn't it, right? So you made three pictures at Riverside. Oh,

Speaker 1  21:49  
then there's labs, a luxury, which was found at the floor. Tom Blakely had offices in this very building, of course, that first spot used to be the opposites of, well,

Roy Fowler  22:05  
our planet. I can't remember who was in this building before the union was so that might be interesting just to break off there for a moment and talk about the union. Yes, I mean the building. You tell us what you remember about the previous arguments, yeah, 111

Speaker 1  22:21  
Water Street, Water Street. It was Humphreys, yeah Alfred's lads. And then

Roy Fowler  22:31  
offices. Was there any word processing? Oh, no, headquarters.

Speaker 1  22:36  
And then, when did I because much later on, much later on in about 7067,

Speaker 1  22:54  
about 69 I suppose I was thinking, this is a hell of a Jump, but it also bring me to the to the plant, to planet I had made for Tom Blakely And Jimmy Brennan up in Mancunian studios in Manchester.

Speaker 1  23:22  
COVID. Pretty well second feature, sort of CO feature with Rosamund John and and and, and I won't bother the boy with the people in which you had the whole, if you please, the whole of the Denham Old Bailey set up there on three Queen areas. It took to get it up there. Just got it into the studio. Because it was a big court case, a big court

Roy Fowler  23:55  
this was a stock set that you got, you say, from

Speaker 1  23:59  
from Denver, had it for years. Barbara said, well, the absolute replica of Erwin, perfect bastard to shoot him because of all the different levels and bridge wire was nice. Oh, of course, I'm jumping. Sorry, right? So that's when I did. Met the blakelies. I'd met them before, of course, and we did that and and then John Blakely was in business with, with, with distributor, oh, he used to do a lot of business through butchers, through my make, quite a number of things later on,

Unknown Speaker  24:45  
and their chief accountant was somebody whose name I know very well but can't pull out of the head.

Speaker 1  24:59  
They. He joined forces with this accountant. They formed planet, and their offices were on one Water Street. The window they used to display all the stills, what happened, posters, what have you. Then immediately the first office actually the same size offices as it is now. I think there'd be a secretary in there, and then what the hell is his name? It's is his name? The other chap's name, he had the first office, and then Tom's was the second office down the little coward down the little corridor.

Roy Fowler  25:53  
Who else was in the building? Did they have the entire building?

Speaker 1  25:58  
No. Can't remember. No, right? Can't remember

Roy Fowler  26:01  
who else Humphreys planet, who else was here?

Speaker 1  26:08  
I think, what was, who was here before AC T, I can't remember.

Roy Fowler  26:17  
No idea. Times I've been past it like I think,

Speaker 1  26:21  
I think it was, I think it was empty for a long time, probably, anyway, quite honestly, Roy, I'm not actually, certainly, whatever I'm asked about face was the Humphreys planet. Might have been planet Humphreys.

Roy Fowler  26:39  
I have a feeling that Humphreys was fairly comparatively recent.

Speaker 1  26:44  
I think it might have been that because and then when Humphreys South water, when the labs went thing, that's when this went thing as well. Front Office, yeah, yes. Okay, so it must be that way.

Roy Fowler  27:00  
Well, we better go back then to, since it's the first time you worked for and let's go back to Tom Blakely in Mancunian, because that's probably an unrecorded, or largely unrecorded, unremembered subject. Well,

Unknown Speaker  27:15  
that didn't happen until much later on.

Roy Fowler  27:17  
I thought you said that the love story was, was Tom Blakeley,

Speaker 1  27:20  
yes for Tom Blakely, but here, right? Yes, but that's the

Roy Fowler  27:24  
first time you met him. I said, so, yes, yeah, tell tell us about him. Oh, well, he,

Speaker 1  27:33  
he was a son of dear old John Blakely harvest, old boy, real, right? Mancunian in business was James Brennan, a showman started as a Barry man up in Manchester, eventually became theater owner. Used to own several theaters up there something at Oldham.

Roy Fowler  28:03  
Legitimate theaters were theaters variety and

Speaker 1  28:06  
of course, all the Frank Randall films. They were first Randall for Frank Randall films, and the very first form be film in the 30s, in the 30s, but actually not shot there. Shot, shot in Albany streets,

Roy Fowler  28:24  
telling me Formby and Randall birth. No, no,

Speaker 1  28:27  
just, just Formby, but the Frank Randalls was shot up there, which and and the cutter editor was Dorothy, somebody, absolutely she's in the street. Still can't remember her name, but dear old John's idea of directing is to stick a camera down, you know, and say, All right, lads, you know, go on, be funny. That'd be that would run. And Doc would have to try and put it, given it all worked. It all worked. So what I made a pot of money out of it. Of course, still do.

Unknown Speaker  29:21  
And they never did anything on a serious note. And Jim careers, oh, I've switched, haven't I? Yes, I'm trying to find out about

Roy Fowler  29:36  
Blakely. Oh, well, this

Speaker 1  29:37  
is this always was with John Blake that's his father, because then Jim Carrey did a deal with Ben and Blakely for me to go up there and make this never look back picture.

Roy Fowler  29:50  
That's later, is it? Yes, it's a bit later.

Unknown Speaker  29:55  
Yes, that's right, that's, that's, that's later. Well, we try

Roy Fowler  29:57  
and keep in sequence. It's just since you. Met Tom Blakely. I wondered what your memories of him were. Oh,

Unknown Speaker  30:04  
my memories, right. Not a great picture maker by any means. But he, he had a he had his father left him a couple of small cinemas up there. I

Speaker 1  30:21  
used to visit him up there and used to live in Cheadle, just outside Manitoba. Still died a few years ago, unfortunately, but he was an awfully nice bloke. I always used to stay at the burners up here. I can see him up there for and I did what, three or four pictures with him in different places.

Roy Fowler  30:45  
Well, we get to the pictures in sequence. It's just personalities. Now, yes,

Unknown Speaker  30:51  
but he was a he was an extremely nice man, very genuine. But

Roy Fowler  31:01  
did you know his father?

Speaker 1  31:03  
Yes. What about him? Well, as I say, John, John, old job lady. He was a chap I was telling him about a moment ago, really rough, the tough one, yes, but you know, he regarded me as a greatly lad, so I was all right. Well. Right?

Roy Fowler  31:24  
So, according to this, then from from after loves the luxury you went to exclusive and hammer exactly you work for both of them, Jimmy Carreras, and

Speaker 1  31:36  
that was about three or four years there, yeah.

Roy Fowler  31:40  
What about them, as individuals, as people?

Speaker 1  31:47  
Well, gym careers was the most lovable rogue I've ever met.

Unknown Speaker  31:56  
Sir James, I had a wonderful man. Really was. But of course, he was not only very astute, rate clever, a great salesman, but he also had a reminder touch, I think, or silver spoon, or whatever. There's nothing, hardly anything, until much later on. Went wrong

Speaker 1  32:29  
anyway, I had finished with the Riverside scene, and you and I then tried to set up some stuff, but we weren't getting any place, and I was, I don't know how it actually came about, but Tony Hines, who was,

Speaker 1  32:58  
see there was, I'm going on to exclusive and hammer now, aren't I was Enrico. It was Jim's father who has a distribution company over here at British national. First I met first met him there because I had some other shorts in general interest, which I haven't bored about,

Roy Fowler  33:25  
that you'd produced yourself,

Speaker 1  33:31  
and I bought some blood of material from Rogue cavern. I give us nice road mortar and something, strung it all together and stuck a track on it. That's all I was doing to readers

Unknown Speaker  33:49  
and Enrico used to take them. Only about three or four of them.

Roy Fowler  33:58  
Did you make a profit off you Bob, yes, well, he'd buy them off you, presumably, you, you know, I

Speaker 1  34:04  
didn't he'd ever got a proper thing list, you know? Oh yes, okay, a few 100 of them, I suppose. But not ticking over that you had no control was never, ever had any control over the distributor. Distributors, very good friends in that business,

Roy Fowler  34:32  
mostly robes and villains. Closet villains. Okay, let's Enrico then off,

Speaker 1  34:42  
no, and then, then Next. Then he left there. And Jim Carreras must have joined forces with will hammer. Will hammer being Tony Hines Father, will hammer was a. In show business. He used to he would involve a jack Payne's band. He used to run concert parties, that sort of pier parties, that sort of peer shows, that sort of thing, bicycle shops, jeweler shops, you name it. But Tony was

Speaker 1  35:28  
just beginning to just beginning to get involved in movies. Michael Jim son, well, he was just playing around. He uh, Henry, I used to I was a member of the Albany club at the time in Sackville Street, and so Jim and Tony and I met there, and I was offered this position as director, part writer Jim Jimmy needs was the was the editor and Johnny? Johnny somebody, Johnny

Speaker 1  36:16  
and Bill. Oh yeah. See all these people, I can't remember Christian surnames, Bill Lenny, and these are all big, big names in the bill Lenny, big names in the editing world.

Unknown Speaker  36:33  
Hadn't come across Jim Connick yet, but he does an awful lot with me. I That was the and the unit was not Derek, William, Cedric Williams, on camera, Peter, Peter, brown operator, Jimmy Harvey, on camera, because this was the big, really, the beginning of will be Virtually, the pioneered

Speaker 1  37:17  
shooting of entire pictures in houses. Scenes had been obvious things, but never and this all started. I was the first one. No God Grayson had done the first one because little

Unknown Speaker  37:48  
radio. Oh, you'd know what doesn't matter. I

Roy Fowler  37:52  
don't think I was around. No no,

Speaker 1  37:59  
and Jim Dreher has gotten down to this idea of taking well established radio shows, a lot of them anyway, and turning them into movies. Apart from one or two tame writers, there's a colonel Rawlinson who was a writer who worked on thing. There was the originator of, of,

Unknown Speaker  38:36  
of what's that? The radio show still go, oh dear. Anyway, he lives in Birmingham. I started this radio show 30 years ago, so we turned that into a movie, PC 49 Vernon Harris,

Speaker 1  39:12  
oh, no, I don't want to know about artists, because, I mean, they're all in the view of folders and things. It was, it was what a fun was, of course, and it was real because we started off a cook and Dean and a large house. The first one was called Celia with high Hazel and people. And of course, we still were shooting on 35 yet and 16 was no good then. So it was one hell of a job lighting. It's all done by steps ladders. Oh, Jack Curtis, yes, he was the lighting man, great. He lives in Wimbledon. Not very close to me. I see him occasionally.

Unknown Speaker  40:08  
Rene Glin, she was editor continuity, and of course, the one has rather careful, because obviously one had to use wide angle lenses quite a lot, and

Speaker 1  40:29  
that has limitations in terms of artists and movement. But going back to what I said long time ago because of the variety of stuff I'd done way, way back as when it all stood took me a very good fit, because you really had to make up as you went along. And when the script was given to me, I'd have to go through it and adapt it to the to the architecture of the place. What took place in the land now to take place in somewhere, you know, this was the fun of the thing, or used the staircases and all this sort of thing.

Unknown Speaker  41:21  
At home. Oh

Roy Fowler  41:22  
yes, sir. Sorry about the break. Francis, you were talking about shooting in houses. Well, that was

Speaker 1  41:27  
what had to happen, of course. And one made use of every every room in the house and every staircase.

Roy Fowler  41:34  
These were large country houses, stockbroker type houses, I suppose,

Speaker 1  41:39  
or a little more. No, yes even, even to mansions, mansions and yes, great houses. But it works very well. One was, you know, limited in the use of tracks, of course, and

Roy Fowler  42:02  
and facilities to presumably, did you travel to the location each

Speaker 1  42:08  
day locally? Took the entire place over catering, everyone I lived in that lived in situation. This was very, very nice. And then you see after after Cookham, we went to Bray, not not where the studio is now, but next door. I've got some lovely pictures of it there. Terrific Gothic pile called Oak. Oh, I know everybody Yes, but it was a fantastic Yes,

Roy Fowler  42:55  
built as I remember, by the Avery scale family.

Speaker 1  43:01  
That's yeah. Well, when we went, it was in beautiful condition. Who was it or it was allowed to go, Oh, was it nervous? Marvelous. And

Unknown Speaker  43:16  
I did three though, I think Man in Black, particularly, and but that was then we went there and took over again, because this was, this was a marble, gorgeous. It was all it wasn't oak. It was in sort of continental pine or something. All the furniture, beautiful stuff, a

Speaker 1  43:48  
great staircase coming down a hall with on the left hand, I can sit now because I used it. This is, this was a joy you see of doing these sort of things. Roy, you go around, you see something, I got to get that in. You see whether it's a cubby hole or something like that, any dancing you'd make bring it in. And here they've got a one of these enormous, great mechanical organs

Unknown Speaker  44:19  
That's right, electrical pipe Warner on the left hand side. Sorry, I got to use that we did. There's a picture with Michael bed and doesn't go

Speaker 1  44:36  
for a moment, a comedy. Someone at the door, which was really quite good. So, of course, naturally, what happens in the middle of the night, and He's creeping around, and, of course, falls into this thing, and it starts that sort of thing. Well, the same thing applied there. You see it was all that was all I. Are making use of every room and every staircase and every nook and cranny that you could and of course, when one saw the picture, says, Where the hell they get all these sets in you have 20 or 30 odd different things, a major build, a major build indeed. And staircases, it was elephant and particularly for sound. But then, of course, that's where I had to come in and bring all my artists downstage and all that sort of thing. And well, you developed quite a

Roy Fowler  45:40  
technique of for the most part, in those circumstances. Did you, were you able to use original sound, or did you wild track a lot and post sync? No, oh, never posting. Post sync

Speaker 1  45:53  
got a fortune. Wait. Oh, post think I tell you about that. Oh, Christ, you see, everything was on a shoestring. But I suppose Jim was a bit nervous about going into this field. And this was even before Edie, Edie London started, you see. And so everything was down to,

Roy Fowler  46:23  
do you remember what your budgets were about?

Unknown Speaker  46:37  
I've got a budget somehow at home too, probably about 12 or 15. Oh,

Roy Fowler  46:45  
they were making them for that before the war.

Speaker 1  46:48  
Except I don't know. Do

Roy Fowler  46:52  
you have any idea what they could hope to make from the picture on release? In those days, they

Speaker 1  46:58  
made quite a bit. And then when Edie came in, this is where old Jim into his office, and he was hopping around like because he got Edie back. He never missed a trick, but he was a wonderful man. There he was praying for him, Tony and I got along fine. I never got along with Michael. Clash of personalities there, and I won't put that on tape.

Roy Fowler  47:34  
Well, if it's if it's interesting and cogent, why not? Well, I

Unknown Speaker  47:43  
Well, here I would like to Lord it around. You know, in charge of I

Roy Fowler  0:02  
He was a bit bossy. Was he?

Unknown Speaker  0:05  
Well, he was his father's son?

Roy Fowler  0:10  
Would he have made it without his father?

Speaker 1  0:11  
No, not in 1,000,030 years, he had a silver spoon that Powell, everything. I nearly made a cock up in the end, right, cock up. Oh,

Speaker 1  0:29  
many, not many times, several times Jim would say, What the bloody hell can we do about Mike? Because he was off and off with the dollies all the time, and turn up onto set in a good looking bugger, sort of Lord it around, and the crunch came when I did this, when I did this picture in, we're not on, Are we? Yes. Oh, crimes, no, I don't know. I don't like that going on. Take Roy, well, I've used some bit of rough language there.

Roy Fowler  1:13  
Honestly, I see nothing wrong with that. No, it's, I mean, no, it's a fair comment in terms of the people who were in the business in those days, and it'll never get heard, not by him. I think, really, that's what we should be doing. You see, rather than one can

Speaker 1  1:30  
see, one can in the moment, one can tend to exaggerate, but heard

Roy Fowler  1:35  
lots and lots worse things, I promise you, on the tapes, what

Speaker 1  1:39  
put put the markers on it, as far as he and I was concerned, of doing this picture in Manchester, was a difficult picture, the Rosman Johns thing and so on. And I introduced Tony Keyes as production manager, and Michael came up there. I did a whole, did the rewrite where every, almost every damn thing, Noel Roberts was casting, and you know, Michael was, he came up there to sort of oversee this, that and the others, stayed in the nicest club, all this sort of business. Then Damn it. When the picture comes out, who gets the producers credit? But Michael, that put the mockers on it for me. Warner. Now that's leap

Roy Fowler  2:35  
straight in it. It was not unusual. Back to that business of being screwed all the time. Yes, as an old friend of mine used to describe it, getting fucked without getting kissed.

Speaker 1  2:53  
Yes, that's right, that's B that sort of thing, you know, and sort of running around, and Jimmy Bannon is Rolls

Roy Fowler  3:04  
Royce, so they weren't doing badly. Oh no. It's astonishing how much money was just ripped out of the business. And still

Speaker 1  3:14  
is. Then, of course, after after that, Troy, we went, Oh. And whilst I was shooting at Oakley. Thing I was doing the first, no, not the first,

Speaker 1  3:35  
I think about a jump. It was the run, because it was the first of the Anglo American ones. Now, that was a, that was a thing, because Jim, up to that moment, had only been, only got sort of releases in, in, you know, UK and around, and he was over in the States. And he had a script of mine, Noel correction, not of mine, but a script that I liked, story that I liked by the name of Leo marks, who you may or may not have heard great. He was a big got a big noise in the cipher business. In the in the war, we became buddies. Ultra nice bloke, and he had a subject called Cloud purse, which was a play of his. I saw it, and I liked it, and told her, I made a very good film, but it was about cipher work, and so we turned it into a script. I was living in ther Street at the time, a little flat in the street, and he'd come around there, and we. Slug at it, got it into good shape, and Jim took it across to America and got a deal, and for which he was very thrilled with, I think the lesser organization, John's letter, whatever it was. And of course, he was very much in the pocket of Arthur everley is at Warners here and the chapart A, B, letter, C, J, letter, whose son no correction, son in law was brought into, into into Hannah House on casting anything together, infuriated me. They just lorded around the bloody case and I got their hands dirty. However, that's another story. Jim knew what he was doing, and I've often said to him like Golly. And then, of course, ran into golden square to Vic fix somebody who was a buyer for ABC,

Unknown Speaker  6:29  
trotting a trench around a golden square around there.

Unknown Speaker  6:39  
But he wasn't. He was a great, great man. No track.

Roy Fowler  6:48  
Well, it's part of that period when you were working for career.

Speaker 1  6:54  
Oh, I know, yes, I'm back to cloud first. So he come back, and Noel Roberts was casting, because we, you know, we got through quite a number of artists, one way or another, doing three or four of these a year, playing hard work doesn't sound very much. I know

Roy Fowler  7:16  
you were on straight salary. Do you remember what it was 50

Unknown Speaker  7:20  
pounds a week. Good Lord,

Roy Fowler  7:24  
that accounts for their rolls. Royces, yeah, right. Sorry, I deal, yeah, big deal. I interrupted your train of thought. You wouldn't say something about this one picture

Speaker 1  7:41  
and then we wanted, because it as a star, it called for rather sensitive type of person being head of a cipher. And we were toying or trying to get Trevor Howard that that that was the sort of image we had. I had because it was quite a quite a dramatic story, a very good story. However, it wasn't to be because I was called into Tim's office and told me about the deal. So fine. He says, I got you a start, too. Robert Preston,

Speaker 1  8:40  
he's a blow guide, seen Dashing through the bloody woods with guns firing all over the place. And she says, You love him. He got to end of end of thing. So actually, it turned out quite well, because he was an absolute charmer. He's a very good was a very good athlete. Well, yes, and of course, I didn't know sounds miscast, but yes, yes, yes, it wasn't, but he aged him and he toned down. Hell of a lot, but he can. He's a macho man. At any rate, one thing that Jim Carrey is very, very sold was to come anywhere near the studio. He kept well well in the back, and when it came Sir Robert Preston was brought over. You see, I met him at trauma and all right, it fell to me to take him down to the house the studio.

Roy Fowler  9:50  
There is a brave studio. Now, is there? It's in the house this,

Speaker 1  9:54  
this is before the studios built, but you're working there was this. This enormous, big house again, next door to next door to to Bray, yes, to Oakley, Oakley court, yeah, the next house along right. And I'd, I'd used it a couple of times whilst I was at Oakley, just because they had right.

Roy Fowler  10:15  
You mean the house that eventually became very studios, yes, right, yeah.

Speaker 1  10:19  
That was owned by George. George somebody, another Noel dipso nearly always got us tight memory down there, George Davis. He was the boss of Astro. You probably needed them, yes, every time and however would go into that.

Unknown Speaker  10:43  
And so off we go and down to arrive at Bray the house. Bob president, I don't think he didn't know what he's going to expect.

Speaker 1  11:00  
Geez, what's this? Perhaps, Bob, this is it, and it worked like a dream. Fortunately, Bob Preston has had a lot of experience in America. You know, I think I don't know what it's called, theater around, but now that's here. But there was that type of work where the very sort of tight group of dedicated artists. So even though he was big time, he he adapted, and he brought his wife over at absolute charmers. And that was rather good. It was a good picture. And

Speaker 1  12:02  
And from then on, that opened the door for Jim with his American people. Then Richard Carlson came across, and George Brent, and then what would that have been paid? Any idea? I have no idea. It's all part of the deal. I would know. Never have been privy to that.

Roy Fowler  12:27  
You still run 50 a week. Are you? Oh,

Unknown Speaker  12:32  
I had eventually a percentage interest in when I lost all the papers. So it's no good taking it up in Whispering Smith, that was the Richard Carlson one and Herbert long and

Roy Fowler  12:51  
suffice it to say, they've never sent you a check. Oh no.

Speaker 1  12:58  
Now that time, we had a lot of script problems on the Richard Castle thing, but he was very cooperative. That was when Michael was aging in and edging me out. I because that was the last one I made for Kim. But then came the other things up in Manchester, but it was still the same thing of using every inch of the and, of course, building sets within the four walls because they were big enough and the grounds And the river.

Roy Fowler  14:01  
Yes, there's a lot you could do.

Speaker 1  14:03  
Oh yes, it was all good looking stuff.

Roy Fowler  14:09  
So I gather you left because of mutual antipathy. You and Michael careerist, yeah.

Speaker 1  14:19  
Well, I just sort of, I wasn't asked to do that. Also was was the beginning of a new phase when my chump, Terry Fisher came onto the scene, and the start of, almost the start of the first horror things. I

Speaker 1  14:44  
i And I couldn't do that at all. Wasn't my scene. Just couldn't. So that's when, when I say Terry came in, because I also you. I forget the date at which because Terry and I worked together on the pet o Bryan picture, or anyone that was,

Unknown Speaker  15:13  
oh, that's when I went independent, of course, because we're now, I

Speaker 1  15:24  
this is when I started doing pictures for all these various distributors like butchers and man tune. And

Roy Fowler  15:33  
where are we in terms of time, time, still the 40s, or are we into the 50s? Wait

Speaker 1  15:44  
a minute, 4950 fish were 52 where in the last half of the 50s, when you went freelance? Yeah, because I formed ba films in 60. So that was when all these other movies,

Unknown Speaker  16:09  
all these were made, all that this, all this, see for i Well, kind of a gut. Well, the movie is monarch, yes, monarch, Bill girl, of course, yes.

Roy Fowler  16:36  
The movies, I think, are less important in a way, since the documented, right? Yes, sir. And then then the people involved, the personalities and the companies, because almost none of those companies survive, do they? No, in fact, I don't think

Speaker 1  16:55  
anyone does the Bray. What person I've been I've been on them. Jimmy Harley became number one cameraman there because Cedric had a row with Jim Carreras. That was that

Roy Fowler  17:12  
there wasn't much in the way of job security, by the sign of it, oh no, tell me what it was like in the 50s to set up shop as a freelance what writer, producer, director, how much work was there around what were the chances of getting a good movie? Did you have to make your own chances, or did people come to you?

Speaker 1  17:37  
Oh, no, you had to trap on doors. And it was pretty damn tough, because you were all it's the old saying you're only as good as your last movie. And whilst there was not much way of finding out whether it was a great success or not, because in B, pictures and CO features and sort of thing, there was not so long as it wasn't a turkey and it got us all these had certain releases, whether rank or ABC or whatever. So that was good enough. That was my card sort of thing. If they hadn't got a circuit release. Some doubts about it. I did one or two it that I don't think I did, and but they all made money for the for the people concerned, but they were found unhappily. I never made anything much, because the having to deal with the SFC, well, I always, I never had enough capital to put anything in myself, or very, very little. Then it had to be a deferment. Well, hell, you were only getting if you got 400 pounds in the budget, 500 pounds in the budget for directing, that was good money. Yeah, and what sort of schedule, 15 day schedule,

Speaker 1  19:41  
and you're supposed to have a profit things that by the time you've paid back, and this is when you were a hands of the distributors who would hold on to the money and not pay it out at the right and proper times. There was NFC. He was interested, accruing all of any time. And by the time all that was dealt with, and that interest that was that was dealt with as bugger all left in the thing, I had two complete Eros packed up. I got six months in the pound on one of the pictures. I didn't need many of those to put you in kind of, not street. So

Roy Fowler  20:24  
it was really, for everyone, a very, very precarious livelihood. Very, very in a good year, what, what would you we're talking now the 50 still in a good year, what could you hope to gross five

Unknown Speaker  20:40  
and three grand

Roy Fowler  20:44  
wasn't exactly living on the life of Riley, and in a bad year, did you have any special bad Well,

Unknown Speaker  20:55  
I kept, I managed to keep my

Roy Fowler  20:58  
it seems, you know, the list Is, is an extensive one. You seem to not more than people, many people,

Speaker 1  21:12  
but it has, I've had a bit back from television. But of course, in those days you had to give everything away, a copyright, you know, it's all part of anything you couldn't

Roy Fowler  21:25  
Well, this is so happens today. This is 1988 and there is a bill going through the house now copyright to rewrite copyright, and still the bastards won't give economic rights to directors as a matter of their conceding moral rights. But the moral rights are not inalienable, so they're unenforceable, and the economic rights belong to the producers, the production company. Now, what's that for justice? Anyway? We mustn't, we mustn't get on to that. But the well, there is this list of companies here, which I think, no, it's 18 minutes after one. Yeah. Would you like to start on that aspect of things afresh?

Speaker 1  22:12  
Yes, because I, in the meantime, I will make sure my dates Okay. Dates are important. Start from that, that phase of independence, shall we say? Right, yeah, okay, because then I could give you chapter and verse and personnel answer, because

Roy Fowler  22:28  
there are some interesting companies here which are out of business, butchers, majors, Alliance, models, Douglas Fairbanks Junior, presumably, that's Mike's father, isn't it?

Unknown Speaker  22:42  
Mike? You know? My tea boy,

Roy Fowler  22:44  
yeah, no. Multi multi millionaire, yeah. And his mom is on a commercial in a commercial on the air. Have you seen that? No. Well, we'll talk about the Mancunian, which I'm sure really hasn't been well documented Mancunian. So what memories we can Yes, salvage of that would be only be very useful, okay, well, then, what shall we say? A week or weeks? What would I can't do next Tuesday? No, all right, Monday. How's that? Well, you name, No, you.

Speaker 1  23:20  
That is the date that, as Peter Lucas has set for further thing,

Roy Fowler  23:33  
Francis, welcome back. It's been a longer break than we'd intended. We're now the 29th of July, and we're back at 111 Water Street, so we pick up now I gather that you've got some additional memories of your time in the 30s at GBI.

Speaker 1  23:50  
GB, screen, GB, screen, well, GB, screen, stroke after GBI, yes, Roy, because I I just want to read care to bring me up to date on it. We had our offices on the fifth floor. That was the managing director. Was just Davis, and there was a G Jackson script writer was Harold Goodwin, general production. Chap was Derek Dane, Eric, Eric, Eric. Dan

Speaker 1  24:38  
camera was Frank Noel. Editing, with Enid Mansell, Frank Cadman was around.

Speaker 1  24:54  
That was roughly the sort of, you know, the. Crewing. Oh Brendan Stafford, of course, yes, yes. He came on a little bit later for lighting the bigger subjects, sort of thing I used to do for British Council and some of one or two of the fairly decent sized sponsored jobs like Anglo Iranian and English oil field sort of things.

Roy Fowler  25:33  
Are we talking pre war or post war?

Speaker 1  25:37  
War time? What war time. Oh no, no, sorry. Just pray. Just immediately, don't pray. Then the balloon went up and we went down into the patient and obviously we stayed down there until the yellow whistle went. But of course, the commercial side was became rather limited. And that, of course, is when the area, which I think I've already covered pretty well for the services with AK one, AK two,

Unknown Speaker  26:28  
Air Force and Navy and the MOI I think I did mention all these names, Beddington and Arthur Elton Wright and John Taylor, and

Roy Fowler  26:52  
I'm not sure that I can remember the extent to which we dealt with them as personalities. Would you maybe like to contribute thumbnail sketches of each of those? Well,

Speaker 1  27:03  
yes, the procedure really would be a, I don't know whether they were monthly meetings or fairly regular. We'd all go around to this place. You told me the name of it, San Francisco, senate house. That's right, yes, and all sit around a very large day, wouldn't Jack Beddington would be in the chair? And I forget whether, whether we were sort of dished out with, I think we were dished out with subjects, you know, one for you, one for you, and one for your business.

Speaker 1  27:48  
Oh, Roger, Roger Burford, he was sort of number one or two or something like that, to to Beddington. In fact, there were several of that type of chaparral who were put in charge of looking after two or three producing companies or that sort of thing. Tell

Roy Fowler  28:15  
me was, was there an era of the gentleman amateur at the moi,

Unknown Speaker  28:23  
a what role? What was

Roy Fowler  28:26  
there? An air of the gentleman, amateur attached to the moi? Was it, in your estimation, a thoroughly going professional operation as well? Rory,

Speaker 1  28:37  
yes, yes. I think, yes, I think I take your point there. It wasn't a lot of enthusiastic amateurs, because we had strict budgets. And all the work we did, we were given a subject like I can remember. Oh, actually, I won't take up time on the actual subjects, but there's a nursing one can't remember the things, but we've covered almost

Roy Fowler  29:16  
no What I meant was people like Beddington seem to have brought a highly idiosyncratic and personal approach to their decisions. Would you say that's a fair comment? They saw the world through their eyes, rather than a more objective stance?

Speaker 1  29:38  
Yes, yes. I think what particularly when it came to the to, not, not, not the service type of subject, what was the, what was the word you use? The propaganda. That's right, yeah, Home Front propaganda, right here you. How? Well, I suppose, roughly, environments, most of proper character. Let's face it, it has to do the job. And so, you know, it might have been a little it was obviously I'm in favor of the

Roy Fowler  30:19  
I'm not sure I'm making my question as clear, and as I should, it seems to me there are correlations, possibly, between the way the MMI was run and who ran it, and also the secret services at the time, which again had this influx from other professions and the universities, and there was very English rather than British even. And upper middle class stands implicit in their attitudes, if not their work. I'm trying to find out if that's a fair judgment or not.

Speaker 1  30:58  
Well, yes, I think it's fair judgment the when some of the names I've already mentioned, like Elton, announced here all those sort of boys who were very absolute first top rate men, of course, on the on the on the less, not less. Not less sophisticated. What am I trying to say? The more Earth you approach to their work, as has been, you know, was shown in a lot of their new works. I

Speaker 1  31:44  
it, I didn't my subjects were fairly straightforward, and nothing of a really, of a political nature, or nothing like that. As far as I can remember, I don't think I'm still answering the question,

Roy Fowler  32:00  
no, it may be there is no answer to it, or maybe you weren't looking at them with that kind of eye to remember accurately. So let's, let's Yeah. Let's move on from that right thumb Noel sketches of the individuals as you encounter them. Oh, well, let's start with Jack Beddington

Speaker 1  32:24  
at squire, super smart always, and dark blue pint suits I can see him now, and a very laid back gentleman. I it.

Roy Fowler  32:43  
And I've read somewhere he had a sign behind his desk that said someone's got to be the bastard. Do you remember that? Oh,

Speaker 1  32:53  
well, we see we were, we weren't in Jack Wellington's office. We always used to meet in the committee room, right? Or a whatever it is, a long time. But he stood out a little bit like a saw some against some of the rocker necks like us and lovely Arthur Elton. It looked like a

Speaker 1  33:22  
town. Tank that hadn't wanted some more sleep.

Roy Fowler  33:29  
So for Beddington Did, did clothes rather than manners. Make the man, oh

Unknown Speaker  33:34  
no, he was, he was

Speaker 1  33:43  
well, very much see what one would expect of a I suppose a person in that in that position, he wasn't too autocratic or anything like that.

Speaker 1  34:11  
As to the others, of course, we the Elton and steel and John Taylor and basil, right? Well, of course they were actually, they were a tiny bit in the verified air, as far as I was concerned, because they were really sort of aces up there.

Roy Fowler  34:39  
Yes, they were stars, oh yes,

Unknown Speaker  34:44  
the GPO units and

Roy Fowler  34:47  
all the rest of it. They didn't. This was the height of their influence. It was

Speaker 1  34:50  
indeed Yes, you know, because, oh, Rother Paul wrote. Of course, yes, how

Roy Fowler  35:02  
did you react to Rosa? We

Speaker 1  35:04  
got on fine, because we used to booze at the George in Water Street.

Speaker 1  35:16  
Yes, live eight. He is a little bit on the word. He was a bit of a Noel. He knew he's done in Job, damn it. He was. He was a first class author. I've got his book too. He

Unknown Speaker  35:46  
but

Speaker 1  35:56  
again, you see arriving, it wasn't a sort of cloud in that respect, we'd all meet together afterwards and chew it over. Just meet at committee meetings, or whatever the gatherings were called. They weren't committee meetings. Whenever we were called, we went.

Roy Fowler  36:16  
These were more likely production meetings, specifically films, that's

Unknown Speaker  36:20  
right, basically production meeting.

Speaker 1  36:28  
But there are more, more people involved in that, right? I definitely can't those are the ones that immediately come to mind, yes.

Unknown Speaker  36:41  
So

Roy Fowler  36:43  
well, now that's the at the MOI How about that? GB, GBI, GB, screen services. You were talking about some of those people.

Speaker 1  36:51  
Ah, yes. Well, then now we're down in the basement, of course. Yes, it's the same crew, roughly the same crew. And we also make use, used to make use of the GB News Reel boys, because they were, they had a large room down there for all their gear. And so we used to, I can see him, and I can't remember, their names, or it was Abbot, who was, who was the, who was the main supporter film of film house. I think he was the theater chap used to run the theaters there. I and

Speaker 1  37:46  
anyway, it was from the basement that all this moi stuff was done and out of work, like a couple of the bigger documentaries, the Cambridge hospital fund and

Unknown Speaker  38:05  
student nurse in Birmingham. And then there's not a lot to say about that, Roy, except we just sort of carried on, occasionally going up to the roof with our tin hat and the power went.

Roy Fowler  38:31  
Would you remember some of the details of production in those days, like an average budget, if there was such a thing? Cool. So no.

Speaker 1  38:45  
I wouldn't have a lot to do with that side, because it would be,

Unknown Speaker  38:54  
that would be Jackson and Dane between them, I suppose Can I don't, well, no, I can't, I haven't got a lot to I'm one, can

Speaker 1  39:13  
one, Can only you see if, if one, if I jumped ahead two or three years and took the first Sydney box, one which was a first feature, about 90,000 quid at that time, one could then get an idea of what on earth would have been allowed for a commercial, or

Roy Fowler  39:49  
perhaps not. Don't think so. Noel, very seldom could you prorate. No, I think per foot you spend more on a commercial, certainly these days, infinitely well. Now, yes, in those days it was commercials were either very low budget or indeed, quite low because,

Speaker 1  40:07  
also around about that time wasn't, wasn't that pound of foot,

Roy Fowler  40:13  
that was, quote, yes, the the American distributors especially,

Unknown Speaker  40:20  
I'm getting all

Roy Fowler  40:24  
they were the notorious ones

Unknown Speaker  40:28  
for the old Hagan things weren't they? Hagan,

Roy Fowler  40:29  
yes, some of the Paramount stuff. Twickenham, course.

Unknown Speaker  40:37  
So anyway, I can't think of anything that of any significance.

Roy Fowler  40:50  
You did mention Pearl and Dean. Is that part of this period? Or Yes, it is. It

Speaker 1  40:55  
is because it was, I used to have an office right at the far end. And I suppose this would be about 44 five, end of August, 46 wasn't it? 45 about 44 five, something like that. And one day, ag Jackson brought down this elegant, tall gentleman, Bobby Dean, and introduced me. And he was the pearl and Dean boss with only pearl. Of course, I forget where their headquarters were at that time, but they were expanding. They were mainly concerned with slide work and not very ambitious commercials, way before, because they got to last around anyway. That was that and but nothing. It didn't make any much difference to what was happening at that time, because the war was still on and the commercial world was very limited. I

Roy Fowler  42:20  
don't understand you, Pearl and Dean, are your employers? Have you? Have you left screen services? No, no, no, no, but you are doing work for pelting.

Speaker 1  42:33  
I forget. I forget when they actually took I don't think they really took over until that I can't, I can't remember, I can't recall having to refer to to Bobby Dean, until we got back up on the second floor, which was after the, you know, after, after the 46 so,

Roy Fowler  43:06  
but I'm not following, are they working for screen services, or have they started Pearl and Dean yard?

Speaker 1  43:12  
Oh, Pearl and Dean had been in existence for some time, right in their own and you are fear of operation, but they were going to take over eventually. I think these were the initial stages of it. I think mainly being introduced that sort of thing.

Roy Fowler  43:29  
So what you're saying that GV screen services sold out to per and Dean, yes, okay, I didn't realize that, because then later rank advertising services must have started at a later date. I assume there was a natural progression from G TV screen services to rank

Speaker 1  43:49  
advertising, because when we went up onto the second floor, there was big offices carpets and couldn't have thought this was Bobby Dean and early Powell. They were the bosses.

Roy Fowler  43:59  
Now let's have your recollections of both Bob and Ernie and Dickie pearl.

Speaker 1  44:05  
Dickie pearl. Remember Dickie? Oh, yes. Well, particularly Bobby Dean. He's old, charming, gushing out of it. Of his ears, because, all right, he's a salesman, obviously a very, very good one. They were all salesmen. Weren't they? Let's face it, see, I wasn't in their employee all that long, because it was, as I said, before we started this session, when we went up onto the second floor, we got back into the sort of commercial thing. And also I was doing one or two things in conjunction with Mary field. I. For PBI. The entertainment picture I did was Gene Simmons and that sort of thing. But also our writers were brought in, like Elliot Stannard, and two names which I can drop with pleasure, brought into, where, into, into, put into, into the parliament.

Roy Fowler  45:39  
Well, let's drop the names.

Speaker 1  45:41  
Actually it was still called. It was still called Screen services, I think. But it wasn't until much later when that was packed up and the whole lot went to the big new offices in harbor mile street, or one of those lush places around.

Roy Fowler  46:01  
They were on Dover Street, from Dover Street and indeed back into Albemarle Street, buildings that backed on one to

Speaker 1  46:10  
another bloody man. Sometimes they bought a student we went to took an interest in South Hall studio and all that, they did have two or three fall down there. I

Roy Fowler  46:26  
suppose we should look at it in this way. There were a great many cinemas in the country at that stage, and also had a very lucrative contract with Associated

Unknown Speaker  46:36  
British didn't they very

Roy Fowler  46:40  
profitable business for a

Speaker 1  46:41  
long time. By that time, Roy, you see, I had, I, I left at the end of 46 or beginning of 47 to join Sidney Fox. So I didn't, but yes, the other two names was Peter Brook, and we're going to

Roy Fowler  47:03  
have to stop getting out at.

Roy Fowler  0:02  
Side seven, right, Francis, we ran out of tape. You were about to mention these names, including Peter Brook. You say, Oh yes, yes, yes,

Speaker 1  0:15  
because both Yes, both Peter Brook and Gavin Lambert to Cambridge. Gentlemen for please and bless their hearts, a little bit out of, out of, out of, out of,

Speaker 1  0:36  
out of their I won't say depths, but that's not the word. Well,

Roy Fowler  0:41  
they were fresh out of college. Yes, 22 young 20s.

Speaker 1  0:47  
That's right, trying to, you know, they're trying to get into the

Roy Fowler  0:52  
business. Who hired them? Who hired

Unknown Speaker  0:55  
them? Bobby Dean, Bobby Dean, and also and yet. Stannard, yes,

Roy Fowler  1:07  
can you tell us about the young Peter Brook,

Unknown Speaker  1:12  
not a mark Roy,

Speaker 1  1:19  
either I had, I don't think it's there very long. He was not as a writer. Yes, that's right. Was an ideas merchant or that sort was the

Roy Fowler  1:31  
thing manifesting a desire to be a director.

Unknown Speaker  1:35  
No, no, you.

Speaker 1  1:44  
I can only see this rather pink face, portly, portly check I remember sitting opposite me in in the corner. I don't think I made any of the Oh, because the sort of thing he would be doing would be supplying basic ideas for for Bobby or one of the other salesmen who, I can't remember his Name, except you lost an eye in the war portrait. To, you know, to talk to their clients about that sort of thing, basic suggestion thing.

Roy Fowler  2:30  
So Pearl and Dean were working with clients direct and write a script. That's

Speaker 1  2:34  
right, yes. Then, of course, they would, it would be developed still further and then come to me at a later stage to put into more cinematic and then go and make the thing. Do you

Roy Fowler  2:48  
remember any ideas that Peter Brook, okay, can't put it. How about Kevin Lambert?

Unknown Speaker  2:56  
Doesn't see very much of him at all. I

Unknown Speaker  3:07  
was on that Elliot Stannard, because he was proud. Elliot was really knocking it on then,

Speaker 1  3:19  
but he wasn't very happy there, because after he had been a top ranked writer, and yet VIP in it in those days, way back. So

Roy Fowler  3:32  
it was alcohol that had affected his career.

Speaker 1  3:36  
Well, we used to all for gathering the ship and a few babies went down there.

Roy Fowler  3:44  
Well, let's, let's be forthright about it, because this will affect him. He had a drink. Problem was, I don't, yes. Lost him work, yeah. So what? Essentially, he was on the

Speaker 1  3:58  
Skids. Joe back House, who were great. She was my generalist, sort of looked after everything, called production, whatever, all the way through. She was also an ex VIP person.

Roy Fowler  4:14  
Would you say that alcohol was an occupational hazard in those days? No, it wasn't. Most people could not.

Speaker 1  4:29  
Oh no. Later on, it became so, but not, not in those days, because we all used to go over to the Bess and cross the road and just have a few beers and play the pin table. Bess was Warner club,

Unknown Speaker  4:44  
the George Bessie the Holt, because that was opposite film house you see all around the corners of the other place. Something had barn house or drip something house. Yeah. Doesn't. Oh no. There's no or the ship, of course, but

Speaker 1  5:10  
we used to use the ship, of course, for years and years after that, because it was a Johnny nice. No, Roy, it wasn't. There wasn't an alcohol thing. Whether

Roy Fowler  5:23  
I wasn't saying this applied to everyone. I wondered if it did affect specific individuals to the point ruining their careers.

Speaker 1  5:34  
Well, no, you see, all the people that I've been talking about were more or less contemporary. And I mean, and it was the only one who was really he must be in his 60s when he came, yes, so of course, he was way off. Well, we said he is younger. Okay, act awfully nice. He's a nice enough jet, but,

Roy Fowler  6:02  
well, do you think we've covered screen services now by this time? Yes, Lee and Poland Dean. Or do you have anything to add? No,

Speaker 1  6:13  
Poland Dean, I work for on separate assignments much later on and for quite a time. But that was a big, you know, separate things after I left, because it was there, from there at Sydney box to take me to, back to Sydney. You see, happened to see the thing I had made in in in Birmingham, the nursing thing. And I think we covered that. And so I had an opportunity to

Roy Fowler  6:49  
to go, Well, it seems, it seems to me, we've reached the point now when we can go back to where we ended the last session, which where you've gone freelance after your experiences with careers, and you're now a freelance writer, producer, director, a lot, and we were going to talk about the various companies for which you worked. Let's try and precise the date. Do you remember the date when you left hammer? I month,

Unknown Speaker  7:23  
4748 49 three years, 789, end of nine, beginning 50s, right.

Roy Fowler  7:34  
Okay, and what was your first job that you recall with I was a freelance Oh,

dear. Well, then what do? What about?

Unknown Speaker  7:52  
Remember, hang about. Let me see. Oh,

Unknown Speaker  8:04  
I'd have to, well,

Roy Fowler  8:05  
I'm going to get myself a cup of coffee while we do that. Right. Thoughts collected. So where shall we start now? Well,

Speaker 1  8:12  
the the latter part of the of the my time with with Jim Carreras, I think, because we, I know we've covered the the Cookham, Dean, period, and then the that Place, Oakley, okay, coward, where we did several there. And then right next door was this large place down down place which was a private residence of of

Unknown Speaker  8:54  
George Davis, yes, and I wanted to, because because the interiors of the depth, but not another place for sort of period or old extraordinary. I wanted more modern stuff,

Speaker 1  9:17  
so we did a deal with George Davis to use a couple of his large rooms. Actually, there was a, it was one of these, not E type well, rather like an E type building without with the middle one taken out. So there were two wings and a main and a main, and George Davis moved out of his and went to live in the other part. And then the main part became, eventually became the beginning of Ray studios. And. And having used the arrow wing as a studio set, and there was, there were several more pictures scheduled for me to do, I actually moved in and lived on the site, which was rather nice, because I used to sort of get up at a reasonable time and shave and all the rest of it and come down give A setup and go back and finish. It had its disadvantages, of course, because it was a bit too much on the on the top of the job, literally not on the top on top of the job, certainly by the side of the job, but it was very nice. And then that was where we did the Richard Carlson one, whispering Smith, a John Gilling script, which I think must have covered. There was a good cast in it. Yes, I yes,

Unknown Speaker  11:25  
that again, was part of Jim Carreras. Is arrangements with the America Oh, with Powell. And yes, because Professor Junior came over or something like that, to

Roy Fowler  11:42  
thing, what was Lester Junior like?

Speaker 1  11:45  
Oh, all right, all right.

Speaker 1  11:54  
I suppose he was there to look after the American interest. Was

Roy Fowler  11:57  
he what you might expect of the son of a Hollywood producer? Was he?

Speaker 1  12:02  
No, he was fairly quiet, retiring chap. In fact, a little bit too much so because I was left with Tony Hines was supposed to be producing, didn't see a great deal of him, and we had quite a bit of script problems, quite a number of script problems, leading attention. And I sort of looked to my producers to give me the answers. I didn't get much. And so, something actually, which did not stand me in good stead, because I

Speaker 1  12:53  
Dick Carlson was, in fact, a damn good writer. I didn't know that because I heard much later on from trains that he also was directing. At any rate, he sort of came to my aid. And, well, not come to my aid. That's silly, cooperating. That's a bit of word in, you know, bringing about better result.

Roy Fowler  13:28  
Looking at some of these cast lists, there are other names. I think we talked about Robert Preston. Didn't we see Christine Norden? Is here now. She was quarters girlfriend at the time, wasn't she? Was she not Christine? Yeah, coward, she had been nice. What happened to Merle was, oh, MYR did long since,

Unknown Speaker  13:50  
oh yes, because she had gas. I guess probably

Roy Fowler  13:56  
she was on the contract and devoid of talent. So I think there's only one reason of explanation that's fair enough. I wonder what your memories were of her, because,

Speaker 1  14:10  
oh, we all loved her, of course, because she's a great, she's a great, great fan any all those sort of characters, Roy, you know, the well lived ones and over the like looking at ceilings and so on. They're all damn you know, they're all good. You know, earthy people. We loved them. All right. She looked marvelous, but she was no, as you rightly say, there wasn't any, not a great deal of depth to her performance

Roy Fowler  14:44  
on screen. Another actress who was very famous at the time, Greta gint, who died. What are your memories of Greta gin Greta gint, Greta gin

Speaker 1  14:57  
Yes. She was yes. With this with Richard, yes. Lived in the Muse because we used to use the exteriors of it.

Unknown Speaker  15:11  
Nothing,

Speaker 1  15:21  
nothing particular. She's effective, very effective. Yes, quite beautiful.

Roy Fowler  15:29  
She was, I think, a star in this country, yeah, all right. Well, let's return now to the production activity, how that operated? You still connected as a distributor with careers, right? Exclusive. But how about the production company? So now we're getting on to Mancunian. I see

Speaker 1  15:56  
what, yes, well, see what. Then after, after with spring Smith, Terry Fisher was coming on the scene a bit.

Roy Fowler  16:07  
Terry as a director, or was he still editing? No as a director. And

Unknown Speaker  16:12  
Michael careers was making noises.

Speaker 1  16:20  
And that is where that cooperation with Dickie

Speaker 1  16:29  
Carlson didn't do me any good, because it was sort of trans regarded as a weakness on my part, which is a little bit,

Roy Fowler  16:50  
how did the disapproval manifest itself?

Unknown Speaker  16:54  
By rather a memo that was left around, really saying what, saying that I didn't seem to be

Speaker 1  17:11  
too sure of myself. In other words, he was really trying to get up his deads.

Roy Fowler  17:21  
This was a memo sent to

Speaker 1  17:24  
you or Jim, you know, typical, real charmer, typical stuff. We didn't know that I seen it. However, it didn't make any any difference at all, to the to the to the relationship between careers, fine, but what was happening at that time Roy was the pattern of things was changing because of his American Association, or his association with the American side

Roy Fowler  18:03  
based on the horror films. Well, they

Speaker 1  18:05  
were coming. Yes, they were coming. They hadn't that. They hadn't started Frankenstein one yet, because that was, that was Jerry's first one. But then, of course, put, put them right onto the onto the map. But I was around because they were all sweating blood, of course, the cost of it 65,000

Roy Fowler  18:30  
No, it extended themselves. Oh, yeah, 65,000

Unknown Speaker  18:33  
quid, it was, or something,

Roy Fowler  18:35  
compared to an average budget previously, of what,

Speaker 1  18:38  
Well, mine, I suppose, 20. 678,

Roy Fowler  18:48  
and they would return in this country, would they, Oh, and return a profit, break even, return a profit here, well, also

Speaker 1  18:56  
because of the American artist that they would have the reciprocal when I become distribution.

Roy Fowler  19:01  
Did you have any share in the proceeds I

Speaker 1  19:06  
did in Whispering Smith, but I've never seen anything that's usually the way I forgot to dig out the things. It's a bit late now, yes, in one of his moments of making a minute here, Jim said, Oh, we got up two and a half percent or something. And

Roy Fowler  19:28  
he's never returned you with any creative accounting,

Speaker 1  19:32  
yes, creative accounting, any rate. That was that. And the next thing was that Jim asked me to do a picture for Jimmy Brennan, who was partner with old John Blakely at Bank Union. In Manchester, the studio, which was a converted church,

Roy Fowler  20:10  
was it a tiny studio? No

Speaker 1  20:11  
good, good size, one stage, one and a bit, but the bit being big enough for, oh, no, it was, it was a good standby stage and a good changeover stage, go and do some bits on that whilst the other was building on the other,

Unknown Speaker  20:41  
because that, I think I said, that's where we had the entire Old Bailey three Queen Mary sent up from denim. I think it

Speaker 1  20:58  
was, and that's where we did first, was introduced to the Blake Liz old man, John and son Tom and Thomas and Frank

Unknown Speaker  21:13  
Tom, son Miller, Chaplain, Frank used to stutter like mad, like I did as well, which is rather

Speaker 1  21:27  
quite amusing on the floor sometimes because Pat Kelly, my first assistant, he used to stutter from Stan and REG wire, who was writing the picture, he used to stutter and Stan. So the four of us, when the going got to Noel, sounds very funny. It was on occasion it used to break the tension. I mean, it was only just excitability to when we cool down, we could get our words out, but there were four of us. So that was the first boy, and of course, a very ambitious one for for, for for mental studios, because prior to that, they'd only made the Frank Randalls and, you know, things of that

Roy Fowler  22:32  
sort. Do you remember what your budget was on this? Well,

Unknown Speaker  22:37  
it wouldn't, wouldn't be, I think it was around about 40 or something like that. You say it gone up a bit because of all the artists we had to bring up from town. And so it was quite a in those days, it would be

Roy Fowler  22:59  
quite a shooting. Oh,

Unknown Speaker  23:06  
four. I think it was a four week shoot, four or five. No wouldn't be five weeks no, four week shoot. I

Speaker 1  23:20  
A Yes, because that was, that was the thing too, on which Michael suddenly became producer. You see the connection with what I said earlier on. And riding around in Jimmy. Jimmy Bannon Rolls Royce, what have you

Roy Fowler  23:49  
did they all have rulers.

Speaker 1  23:52  
No only Jimmy Jimmy, actually, I had, I had the youth vote for the first couple of days because I was put up at the glady great hotel, the Midland or whatever it was. Last one my mates, they were in smaller places, flipping roller would come for me in the morning and take the back of now, I got fed up with that after a couple of days, I wanted to be, where the action was. It was very nice of Jim, who, of course, was, as I always say, was part owner with old John Pinkley. That went pretty well. I

Speaker 1  24:46  
uh, keys Tony Keyes, I brought him in as production manager.

Roy Fowler  24:57  
Was he a permanent fixture? Bray at that stage. Age or

Speaker 1  25:00  
no, that was the first introduction. Actually, I didn't think because he stayed on with hammer for a long time. BECTU, I liked him a lot, but I I had a feeling that that he and Tony, he and Michael got along rather well. Don't wish to be hard on but I think they were roughly of the same kind, in a way, because Tony was yes, Tony Keith, he'd rafted about on the big BECTU. I got that feeling.

Unknown Speaker  25:53  
Connie was the finest continuity in the country. She was continuity.

Roy Fowler  26:02  
Richard, Reg, wire, you said, What about reg?

Speaker 1  26:09  
Oh, well, he, we used to get on Mark. He also lit girl in a million

Unknown Speaker  26:16  
to Sydney. And no, he didn't like apologized. That was Lesley ralphson. Can't remember that the rest of the unit. She a operator, operator Ken. Ken Hodges, who used to like later on in some of the other pictures.

Unknown Speaker  26:59  
Art Director I well,

Roy Fowler  27:02  
we can always find,

Speaker 1  27:09  
actually, from now on, as you've said on one occasion, I think this is fairly well documented.

Roy Fowler  27:16  
Yeah, it's the the insights and the personalities. I think that will be most interesting to talk about the the

Speaker 1  27:29  
I can't recall any thing of any outstanding incidents or anything like that on the

Roy Fowler  27:37  
Well, let's talk about how a film was made at Manchester, was it? What should we say? More, more provincial in approach then? Well,

Unknown Speaker  27:49  
smoke when I Oh, damn it. It wasn't the first one I did there.

Speaker 1  28:01  
First one I did there was love, the luxury, yes, oh, that yes. It was because that when your remark there reminded me of how they used to go about things, which was not the way I used turn did, because tell us, well, when I in the first place, old Tom this, this was the first, this was the first sort of production assignment that he was involved in, because he was also heavily involved with Jack Phillips butchers through distribution bank union butchers here, sort of thing you see. And we had met summer previously, but I can't go on anyway, I went up to Manchester, and we had talks usual, pre you know thing,

Unknown Speaker  29:17  
and I was given a bloody weight play. And so I said, What's this? Tom says, well, that's a script

Speaker 1  29:34  
got no fade in and occasional mix and fade out. And that was, it was the bloody play you see,

Unknown Speaker  29:49  
script or string play, can't you put it into some sort Oh, Christ. I. Well, yes, I mean, that was the first comment

Roy Fowler  30:02  
saying, How long before you would do to start shooting? Oh,

Speaker 1  30:05  
about three weeks. And so I brought in a truck, Erwin Ambrose, who hadn't got anything to do at the time. I was still living at Bray in the apartment there, so we flogged at this darn thing. And obviously had to be broken down. And, you know, scenes built in bridging stuff. I Hebrew. So anyway, that was done. Oh, everybody like that and so on. What an idea doesn't matter that. Well, it did matter to me, of course, but however, well, then the next thing was to go up there and had one meeting with the now, I didn't have a meeting with the art director, which I had. The art director was an architect, John, of theirs, of the family, Eric. I went, Ah, yes, I know what it was. I went up three or four days before principal shooting. I almost bloody horrified because it had been the composite had been built like a flip in ours. Nothing floated. I said, Oh, we, you know, first place, I can't get a dolly through the doors. Secondly, nothing floats. I can't get back. Oh, dear. Said, All right, you know, breaking it down and taking out the fourth wall and and widening the door so at least I could get part of the Benton through. So that was, you know, that was that for answers your question. All done in very good, very good humor. Of course.

Roy Fowler  32:25  
Well, since Manchester has a long stage history, presumably the stage hands and the stage carpenters, such people were very good at their job. Oh

Speaker 1  32:34  
yes, yes, it was. They're all damn good workers. Ernie Ernie Ernie Ernie Palmer lit Yeah,

Roy Fowler  32:46  
did you take all the camera crew and the production crew up or

Speaker 1  32:50  
except, no, no, there was some frank Tom sound. Was operator? I

Speaker 1  33:05  
now, there were a few from from there, but I think the principles came up 8o, D, that's, you know, sort of thing. Noel Roberts was casting. I

Speaker 1  33:27  
and, oh yes, the other Oh, of course, the lovely character. Oh, Hugh. Hugh Wakefield. I uh, Basil Radford was, was, was signed to do it, which was marvelous for me, because we worked on Goon and million with it. And three days, three days before we were due to start, he cowarded his foot. Couldn't move. So telephones were hot between here and Manchester, and managed to get us, we managed to pick Hugh Wakefield as a poor provider. He was absolutely marvelous. We met in the Queen's hotel, I think it was Manchester

Unknown Speaker  34:34  
on the on a Saturday, or something like that, and gave him this bloody great thing. It was an awful lot of a dialog. Anyway, he took over and was more like all real, true directors. He was great.

Speaker 1  34:57  
And so for the others, Mike Medwin and. And whatever. So, ah, so that was the first Mancunian one, and now leaping to the other one with the old belly the never looked back. Do you think? Clear? Clair and Jones.

Roy Fowler  35:30  
No good curse, do they? It's a good cast? Yes,

Unknown Speaker  35:34  
it is good cast. Yeah, it's been on the box

Speaker 1  35:50  
to my heart. This is only a few months ago, and we're 88 now. I saw it in the in the I don't want to waste time on this, but it was just just how things can go wrong. I was told that I don't take the TV time. I maybe said, Oh, do you know your thing is on? I said, Because, actually, quite a few of them keep on coming on and have a care anything about him or see anything. And if never looked back, I said, Oh, good. I will never look at that, because I quite, quite liked it, and I read the thing, and got the cast and everything. And to my horror, I saw it was produced and directed by Jimmy Bennett and Michael Coronas Goon. I didn't do anything

Roy Fowler  36:54  
about it. Has someone replaced the original titles? Or is that

Speaker 1  36:59  
it was just the publicity where they got it from Roy, I wouldn't know, but I was mad about it at the time. I didn't get old, but I mean, Jimmy Burnham was a studio owner. They're

Roy Fowler  37:16  
inclined to be very inaccurate quite frequently. That's not

Speaker 1  37:22  
the first time, no, no, no, the credit was Gordon parry, actually, I did ring the BBC on that, and they put out an apology, and so on. Power now, right? So then, now we're still up in Manchester, aren't

Unknown Speaker  37:49  
we? What?

Unknown Speaker  37:58  
Gosh, I'm taking up time i

Roy Fowler  38:03  
Yeah, I'll stop. What more possibly is there to say about Mancunian and the Blakely family?

Speaker 1  38:15  
Or not? Wait well the Blake thing, yes, because I did after that, but not at mancun, but it really involves Tom and butchers, because I did what, three or four after that. The down here,

Roy Fowler  38:34  
do you want to move on to butchers? Now?

Unknown Speaker  38:38  
I think probably i Yes, they're all round about the same. Yes,

Roy Fowler  38:45  
blue area, less than tell us what you remember about butchers. Yes,

Unknown Speaker  38:50  
well, old man, Jack Phillips, of course, it was a marvelous old rogue, really, one of the real old time film salesman. And how

Roy Fowler  39:10  
old was the this time, which we're talking now, of early 50s? Yes, yes, early to middle 50s. What do you mean he would be in his late 50s, not an old pioneer. Then do you think a salesman heard he Oh,

Speaker 1  39:27  
yeah. Well, he had, he had butchers film service, which was, can't remember who he followed, but they were up here in Water Street, well, just next door to the to the to the to the to the Did he follow? Baker? Baker, that's right,

Roy Fowler  39:52  
FW. Baker

Speaker 1  39:56  
kept the name, of course, next door to the. But the George BECTU and I can't remember the word of how I first came to the

Unknown Speaker  40:26  
to meet up with him. It must have been through making a picture for Tom down here, Tom Blakely, I mean, for their distribution,

Roy Fowler  40:43  
yes, but can we talk about people and the company? Yes,

Speaker 1  40:53  
there was just jack at that time. His son wasn't in it. Then John the

Unknown Speaker  41:01  
the money man, the chief accountant. Oh, Lord, his name now, Bill Thomas, good, and what's the big staff, or anything like that. But of course, they didn't, you know, a lot of distribution.

Roy Fowler  41:30  
Where did the films get shown? Do they get major circuit release? Oh, yes, yes,

Speaker 1  41:34  
yes. Oh my. Did anyway. Unfortunately, do Yeah, because, apart from the ones that I made for Tom Blakely of three for which had Bucha distribution, I when I went there on my own as the freelancer, on the freelance side, was from bayford. Was in 6060s,

Speaker 1  42:13  
having dealt with the nffc, I was able to introduce that and say that three or two or three, or whatever it was, I made four butchers were in conjunction with NFC, but

Roy Fowler  42:32  
that's later, you think, in the 60s. But at this stage, what have you begun to produce, not really. Why have you?

Unknown Speaker  42:53  
No, no, no, these are actually all that lot are going directorial assignments. Well, it

Roy Fowler  43:06  
would be interesting to talk about independent production separately. So let's just again wrap up on the companies. There's

Speaker 1  43:18  
not a lot to be said about butches as a neighbor sales organization, right?

Roy Fowler  43:22  
Okay, who financed them?

Unknown Speaker  43:28  
Good question. I don't know,

Roy Fowler  43:32  
but it was in those days they Yeah, they're very old company, and the lucrative company was over

Speaker 1  43:42  
not took over, was introduced, and I, as usual, you know what he had been before that probably a first salesman, or a car salesman, or something or other. And of course, all of a sudden, was one boundaries producer, the usual Valley thing. One knows all about that, and it's the sort of thing you're faced with. You see,

Roy Fowler  44:17  
yes, they suddenly get creative, too. Gosh, truth, yes, okay, particularly

Unknown Speaker  44:22  
wanting to begin on the casting of the of

Roy Fowler  44:27  
the dissident radio.

Unknown Speaker  44:34  
It worked reasonably well,

Roy Fowler  44:39  
but it was irritating. An average budget for the time or lower, oh, they'd

Speaker 1  44:45  
all be, you see, most of these, Roy would be blanket deals with, with, with Walton, my.

Roy Fowler  45:00  
At Walton. Do you remember what they paid you?

Unknown Speaker  45:03  
Oh, yes, I suppose they'd be about 400

Roy Fowler  45:12  
and that would involve how much work, how much prep time, and prep make it post, yeah, without how much prep time,

Speaker 1  45:21  
as long as it took, which would be four weeks, maybe,

Roy Fowler  45:24  
right? And you'd be handed a script, which you'd have to knock into shape, but in four weeks, you'd have to do what, get the script together, cast it,

Unknown Speaker  45:38  
yeah, get it on the floor.

Roy Fowler  45:42  
How long did they shoot? How long did they have to build the sets? Week? So you'd have a chance to talk with the art director, but not much.

Speaker 1  45:51  
Well, in those what I used to do was, was not to do the woman script properly until I talked to the art director. No point in writing down but you can't shoot or build

Roy Fowler  46:04  
and a three week shoot, which would be studio bound, or did you ever get out in location? Oh, yeah, no,

Speaker 1  46:08  
no, some we had to, have to open it up a bit. But of course, but

Roy Fowler  46:15  
no extensive travel, I would have no extensive travel.

Unknown Speaker  46:20  
Occasionally, library, course black and white anyway,

Speaker 1  46:29  
but Oh, J, K, Morris, he was down at Walton, and I suppose they were 15, 1617, 18,018, 1000 acting,

Roy Fowler  46:43  
who was your cameraman? Jeffrey faith, who worked a

Unknown Speaker  46:47  
great deal with butchers, with me, yes, Ken hockey got a lot the uh,

Speaker 1  47:06  
mostly, they were the sort of kings of the not kings, but, you know, because they were quick and very reliable.

Roy Fowler  47:16  
What? What do you have to say about Jeffrey faith for because he was a very busy

Speaker 1  47:21  
camera man. He was great. Oh, very nice. Well, very nice book indeed. And

Roy Fowler  47:29  
his work, oh, first art.

Speaker 1  47:33  
He used to write for Terry too. He did the pet brown picture with Terry produced. Oh, now he was Brent Stafford, yeah, he brought him. Oh, Jimmy Harvey comes, yes, but he stayed on quite a lot at the hammer as well. I

Speaker 1  0:01  
A Chat of a minute with you before we go into the thing.

Roy Fowler  0:06  
This is side eight. Yes. Francis, yes, still butchers. Well

Speaker 1  0:12  
before we started, I mentioned directing on your feet, because in those days, it was very much not actually a one man band, because obviously you had all your people around, but directory a you'd have to to to carpenter the script, because nine times out of 10 the writer wouldn't have knowledge of costs or anything and

Roy Fowler  0:57  
well now is that, do you think a reasonable proposition here is a writer who claims to be a motion picture writer, and he can't write professionally. That seems to me, nonsensical. Well,

Speaker 1  1:08  
it so often. It so often happened they would write stuff which would cost a bomb to either build or to shoot when you've got a 15 day schedule, and by golly, if you went over a 15 day schedule, you were in trouble.

Roy Fowler  1:27  
No, I understand the point, but what I'm saying is it's madness for the company to hire a writer who can't write to their kind of budget was it was that typical?

Speaker 1  1:38  
Yes, it was typical because they were Noel that the director has been around round long enough, and he's daft enough to take it on. Otherwise, there was somebody else see the competition in those days, Roy was there were quite a number of directors making big pictures.

Roy Fowler  2:01  
It seems to me, Francis, that the writers almost were cynical about it. They just took the money and dumped an unproducible script in your lab.

Speaker 1  2:10  
That might be a slight exaggeration, but I'd have to have several sessions with the writers have a great say. Look, it comes out with an earthquake and, you know, woke up to something exciting to use the Olden to meal thing.

Unknown Speaker  2:31  
And you know, you kind of all have all this lot of night shooting,

Speaker 1  2:38  
because, as I said a moment ago, they were budget pictures, and they were scheduled pictures. And if you did not, if I didn't finish on the Monday evening, when I went there the next morning, the set wouldn't be there. And so, you know. And so also, when I used to do this, I tried to be terribly efficient by having very great blackboards and drawing out all the camera angles and all this sort of thing, lovely tracking shots and whatever it was. And had to get better.

Roy Fowler  3:18  
Would you say one of your strengths as a director, was your ability to stay on budget and stay on Yes, be resourceful. Just don't be resourceful. So this is directing on your feet

Speaker 1  3:28  
and when something when Tom Blakely, however, it was a come down at four o'clock. I say, look, Mike, you know how much more you got, because you want to get rid of this. Or, you know, can I float back? And how much more of this set Do you want? And whatever ideas you've got, whatever angles you've got left to shoot on, okay, you'd have to readjust. Okay, so well, for Christ's sake, you know, leave me a corner. So then they take the rest of the steps away. Would it

Roy Fowler  3:59  
be fair to say that a great many of these pictures, in essence, were winged. They were just

Speaker 1  4:05  
shot on the go. Oh yes, yes, yes. Because if you and if there was a retake which got something, okay, it didn't that come out of my schedule. It wasn't on the schedule. Wasn't extended. Plenty of one whole one of the pictures, cold morning. Had to be really shocked because they were in the wrong bloody clothes. Okay, you can't fire anybody to double it up and do it. Try so quick.

Roy Fowler  4:39  
What would you do if the set had been struck? Did that ever happen?

Speaker 1  4:46  
No, I haven't. I haven't come across. I have found myself with with literally a quarter a corner having been told I. Exited, the characters left, and was able to bring them in, right, that sort of thing. But that's where you can't sit down and, oh, dear, you know, what are we going to do now? Just, but that was, that was the fun of the thing in a masochistic sort of way. It's a challenge, but it, you know, it's as

Roy Fowler  5:29  
I think one one took pride in one's ability to surround these challenges, these tests. Yes, I used to feel the same way, and

Speaker 1  5:37  
particularly see when you got a blanket deal with JK, he wouldn't let me go over

Roy Fowler  5:45  
tell us about the blanket deals,

Unknown Speaker  5:48  
right this, we give him a script, of course, And he would the blanket deal would provide sets, sets labor,

Roy Fowler  6:10  
sets of labor. This is the deal that the distributor or the producer has done with the studio. Yes, who's done the deal? The producer, producer on the production company? Yes,

Speaker 1  6:22  
if it was, if it was a Bucha scene, then I as the Well, I mean, Jack never did a damn. Hardly ever been on the floor, except he did come on one of mine. I barely nearly chucked him off because he had a he had a guest with him. This is a diversion, but the sorting, I cannot stand for people who don't know anything about production comes on the floor because, you know, setting up, it does take time to get a slow hand clap. Don't often blow my top, but I did

Roy Fowler  7:06  
have it all right. Explain that in a little more detail.

Unknown Speaker  7:10  
What blame the top? No,

Roy Fowler  7:11  
no, no, no, the circumstances that led up to the slow hand club I've never experienced that. Oh well,

Speaker 1  7:18  
they came, you know, came on the set he and his guests are. Where it was now I didn't know ever there it was. Shepparton actually on one of the one of his pictures, and I was up on a rostrum, and I I was just learning, you know, running up, fighting, all that sort of thing. After about five or six minutes, I heard this, but you know, slow head, slow hand clap from somewhere, and up down there was Jack and wherever it was. And I forget what I said. I said, Jack, you might not do that, because either, either you want some light on these things, I can barely go see the scene or not,

Unknown Speaker  8:20  
honey. I joke, Jack Frank, one can

Roy Fowler  8:30  
well do without that, absolutely. One can do that. That sort of person, and

Speaker 1  8:35  
believe us, you know, is a bit like that. Okay? And blanket, well, yes, okay, they provide for a fixed figure, and on the understanding that if so and so forth, you know, the extra payments and so forth, but that would have to be agreed by NFC in some circles.

Roy Fowler  8:56  
Did that mean that everything was cut to the bone? No,

Speaker 1  8:59  
no. What I would have to do if it couldn't be if it couldn't be done, then I have to adjust the script. And don't have so many sets, or don't make it so elaborate it was. It was a matter of really cutting them cross.

Roy Fowler  9:19  
But generally you were satisfied. Were you

Speaker 1  9:22  
that worked? I had, we had blanket deals with Andy worker at Shepparton and and and whatnot out at MGM and it all. I mean, the studio didn't like it too much, but they made sure that when they read the script, they estimated how long it takes to build a set. And we told my friend, sorry, mate, we can't this up. Can't get this up in two days, you'll have to to you. Agree some overtime, or,

Unknown Speaker  10:03  
which was a very rude word, I tell you, in those days, the idea of bubble, let alone anything, anything else, very often had to do a bit of bubble, but mother lot, oh no,

Speaker 1  10:19  
and you shouldn't do if it's properly scripted and properly thing. You shouldn't have a lot of bubble. But that's another story

Roy Fowler  10:31  
this is usually covering for mistakes or incompetence or ego.

Unknown Speaker  10:41  
So right now, that design that covers, that really covers Walton studios as well. I made quite a quite a number, there doesn't matter how many. But then, of course, that was taken over by winestein

Roy Fowler  11:07  
and Hannah hood. Hannah Weinstein, yes,

Speaker 1  11:10  
Hannah Weinstein, last, of course, the whole atmosphere changed. Oh, so, how so it became a looking over your shoulder,

Roy Fowler  11:27  
the great fear. Do you mean not a

Speaker 1  11:29  
great fear, but maybe we've been a bit too chummy in the past. But it worked. Yes, it worked. Well, we were not any fools. We didn't, we didn't, you know, wouldn't, wouldn't, deliberately do anything stupid, anything like that. But with the Weinstein lock, it wrong was all Noel, it appeared, except that they put the hammer down on JK Morris and made it more difficult for there were many more out of the things and all this

Roy Fowler  12:07  
sort of thing was that an American attitude been imported. Yes, but would you say it was more efficient in terms of output? It was not

Speaker 1  12:17  
antagonized? And I it. But of course, one was one had to put up with it, because the number of students doing the back were not all that.

Roy Fowler  12:35  
What can you? Did you work with Hannah Weinstein? No. Do you have any memories of her

Unknown Speaker  12:42  
in the restaurant, and she had a bit of an entourage. Now, Jim Connick was the editor on the pictures,

Roy Fowler  12:58  
yes, on Robin Hood or your picture, or your picture down. He's still around. He

Speaker 1  13:05  
comes and spends every Boxing Day with me. He was out in Ireland with me talk across his brace duty as Ireland forgotten that.

Roy Fowler  13:13  
When does that come? Later.

Bit later, yeah,

Unknown Speaker  13:23  
Master does. Master yes, oh yes, yes, yes, yes,

Roy Fowler  13:30  
all right, we must not forget that is Bray Ardmore.

Unknown Speaker  13:41  
Now ACT

Roy Fowler  13:44  
Films, yes, that was fun. Thomas

Unknown Speaker  13:50  
now, because I used to, I think I used to bang into Ralph bond in the Nelly, because that's where the

Roy Fowler  14:07  
tell us, tell us that what the Nelly was, because otherwise, Dean,

Unknown Speaker  14:11  
yes,

Roy Fowler  14:12  
a well known watering hole. Well, yes,

Speaker 1  14:15  
it was a sort of sub office of Act and everybody. I think it was also up, up the rickety stairs, was the room in which the producers, which meetings were held. Producers, Director section used to meet. Then that's where I used to go and sit around with the

Speaker 1  14:47  
aces of the industry. A city films, basically films, and that's where I used to meet Ralph Baum down in the bar. And

Speaker 1  15:07  
one time, anyway, he he knew of it. And I forget who, who preceded Ralph. Do

Roy Fowler  15:17  
you mean as president or in charge of Act? Oh, Goon knows there's a poster up there, but I don't think it's got any credits on it.

Unknown Speaker  15:31  
Are these acts?

Roy Fowler  15:32  
That's a CT, yes. And I think that one must be too. I'm not sure about that evidence, but was our

Speaker 1  15:39  
friend. Oh yes, I can see all these kings and queens of the second. Peters. Yes, any rate, Ralph got in touch and said, Would I like to do a thing to produce because I'd had a bit of a row with his, with his predecessor, and we met him club in British France. Oh yes, because they had offices up in victorious trees or something. Yeah, ACT Films, Victoria. I went from Yeah, and I forget what exactly, what it was, what we're roundabout anyway, that was sorted out, and we started with Ralph bond and did three. One, Terry Fisher directed one, one,

Unknown Speaker  16:48  
Jeff faithful, another.

Roy Fowler  16:52  
What was this? What was the setup with Oct films? Who financed Oct films?

Speaker 1  16:58  
They were financed partly by the distributors, which was monarch and act and NFC, they're

Unknown Speaker  17:05  
all distributed by Monarch, and they were the usual 1515, Day shot at various places in St John's Wood at Walton, similar sort of deals to which were they any good? Oh, yes. Well, you got them all around here.

Roy Fowler  17:38  
Well, that's because of the family connection.

Speaker 1  17:41  
I suppose I could have bought some of mine up. Yeah,

Roy Fowler  17:44  
you've got some posters. Not posters. I got the

Unknown Speaker  17:47  
handouts. Well, that'd be useful

Roy Fowler  17:50  
framed, but they would end up on the second half, the last half of the bill.

Speaker 1  17:59  
What order? And happy? Well, yes, but you see here again, this was, this was a, this was a cruel and liquidus, seeing what used to happen was with the so they all had to get a circuit deal to have any real, real revenues.

Speaker 1  18:29  
They were all sort of tied in with a one and a half times this and of some bloody complicated financial rip off I would call it. I And if you had a duck first feature,

Speaker 1  18:51  
they would play your second features. In many instances, a damn sight more entertaining, maybe not better, but more entertaining than the first play that but you never get any more extra for it, from the from it, from the circuit or the major distributor that was the racket

Roy Fowler  19:11  
at some stage, I want to talk with you about how it operated in those days, with the nffc and with the ED fund, but that probably comes a bit later when you're independent, does it? But on, I see on stolen assignment, which was your AC, your first act film, you're down as producer, but you were, what the line producer on that, were you in effect, or would Ralph have been the executive producer? Yes,

Speaker 1  19:36  
yes. I would take, I would take the script to do exactly the same, same you

Roy Fowler  19:42  
had nothing to do with financing the film. No,

Speaker 1  19:47  
okay, just ask me who I'd like to you know they'd have a list of directors available, and there. Know this will read a Tor coin

Roy Fowler  20:00  
or who did direct stolen assignment, doesn't know, ACT Films presumably operated to all intents and purposes as a commercial company. Oh, yes, it was. Then it made no concession.

Speaker 1  20:19  
All happened there. Everybody was paid minimums.

Roy Fowler  20:26  
Did they have a percentage or a deferral? No, just a minimum.

Speaker 1  20:32  
Desmond the idea of being as a useful fill in between the

Roy Fowler  20:44  
right? And creating employment generally, creating employment thing, it's an attitude that existed then, but does not exist now. How it's all changed? Yes,

Speaker 1  20:59  
indeed, I Well,

Roy Fowler  21:04  
I will ask you, is there anything more to say about ACT Films, either on that one or did

Unknown Speaker  21:12  
very well.

Speaker 1  21:20  
Not Not really, Roy, because, you know, it's by that time you see when you've made, what, 689, 10 of these things, you're pretty well in the in the know how to do it? Oh, yes. It becomes a bad habit, yes. And so you don't mess about with the exercise.

Roy Fowler  21:46  
It becomes a professional exercise,

Speaker 1  21:49  
and you find yourself, you know, doing extraordinary.

Roy Fowler  21:55  
More people, I want to talk to you about a couple of them anyway, before we get on to your own freelance or your own independent operation. One is Terry Fisher, whom you've mentioned a couple of times. You Is it Is now the time to talk about him, or a bit later, because you formed a partnership with him. And the other one is a name that fascinates me, luck. Well, only because of I've known Mike for so long now I know what he was, Father, oh, yes, but tell us about the luck. Wells right? Well,

Speaker 1  22:30  
Bill was Jimmy Corona's publicity man, and that's when I first met Bill, because he he would be doing all the posters and publicity stuff for pictures that I did for Jim carreys.

Unknown Speaker  22:57  
And of course, your old bill and the and the glass were never far apart. In other words, he used to like his tipple

Roy Fowler  23:13  
very much. Did that affect his work or encourage it?

Unknown Speaker  23:17  
Well, it made life a bit awkward sometimes. But then he had his wife, Kay was the real brains.

Speaker 1  23:32  
That's where Michaels got his, his whatever business acumen of things from, because she was always, she was always on the budgets and money and but Bill was, he was a good he was a publicity man, talker, promoter, promoter, and so I used to meet him. He used to have an office up here in one of these little streets. Can't see it now, but with all the posters, Mets, all the stuff, and then we asked me to I was him, or whether it was Morris land, but a film right? They used to do a lot of film rights in those days.

Unknown Speaker  24:26  
I said, Would I like to do a picture of Bill, which? I said, Yes, I forget which one it was. But, oh, then I brought my writer in paddy O'Brien. I And that's when Bill had an office in shaft re Avenue, where I took an office with him later on.

Roy Fowler  24:57  
Was that number 52 Yeah, i. Yes, I remember Kay once, but I had an office in 52 at one stage. Yes, that's right. And when I was there, the plaque, the luck or plaque, was still on the really downstairs. Yes,

Speaker 1  25:16  
he was up there. And so between there and the blue posts, the pub just down the road from them, and afternoon club, we managed to get the pictures made, but it worked.

Roy Fowler  25:39  
How many will mean? You know not me where I see you down, just for the one is that right? Oh,

Unknown Speaker  25:53  
under cover.

Unknown Speaker  26:01  
That's right. Try to do one for Bill. I

Speaker 1  26:08  
thought, well, Master done. Can't see. Can't see

Roy Fowler  26:24  
well. I mean, let's not waste time on it. Is that all to be said about Bill? What was the ending of him? Do you remember he died relatively young, didn't he? Yes,

Speaker 1  26:43  
I went to his funeral. Was that the booth? Oh, he kept on going away to be dried out that well known place, whatever it was. But we used to be down at Wellington, of course, was the place for Bill. He said, Hammersmith. I'm sure I made

Roy Fowler  27:14  
what? What would you say is that the end of the Lockhart? What more do you have to say about him.

Speaker 1  27:22  
He was, he was, he was a nice he was, he's a nice enough flash.

Speaker 1  27:35  
And Michael, this up in the front, up in the office, I was gonna

Roy Fowler  27:40  
ask you about Kay first, then we'll talk like, yeah, because Kay, I've always found an eminently sensible

Speaker 1  27:46  
she was. She was well on the ball, yeah. Oh, and just as I do is to keep a keep the boat.

Roy Fowler  27:54  
So behind every drunk and publicity man there is a Kay luckwell.

Speaker 1  28:00  
She used to occasionally take a thing, but

Roy Fowler  28:04  
I don't think Mike drinks either, which might have connection Noel drink, certainly, I've never seen him drunk,

Speaker 1  28:12  
right? She used to take Willie by the ear and lead him out. I can't think of anything. I did have an office because he had a spare one, and I wanted an office sometime or other. So I was there for six months or something, setting up something. Well,

Roy Fowler  28:35  
that brings us to luck. Will FIS, local sun. Well,

Speaker 1  28:41  
all I know there is, of course, when I was, that was when I had had the office say I used to see him. Well, he was, he was around quite a bit.

Roy Fowler  28:49  
No, this was when he was, how old

teens, do you know what he began as, in the business? Oh, no. He was just hoping he ran in the office, sort of tea boy.

Unknown Speaker  29:09  
Then I completely lost touch.

Roy Fowler  29:11  
So he wasn't really contributing anything. When, when you were there? When would this be early 60s?

Unknown Speaker  29:25  
Yes, yes,

Roy Fowler  29:28  
he began to develop fairly quickly then, because, I guess when he was already producing commercials or running a commercial company and running it very well, and already showing that financial acumen. So nothing more about Mike, not really. Okay. Well, let's push on, because we're running out of time. I. These are the companies, BFI, it was your company. Yes,

Unknown Speaker  30:03  
form, that is right. FSP,

Speaker 1  30:06  
that was made. Francis saw production. I just had that for one picture, but I didn't like the idea of the personal names.

Roy Fowler  30:13  
How about Sonic? Who were they?

Unknown Speaker  30:16  
Was only got side and handy.

Roy Fowler  30:21  
I did a Can you say anything about either go outside or work?

Speaker 1  30:25  
Except he was a lovely man, very fond of him. Became very, became very good friends. Used to live at Hendon. They had an office. We used to meet, not every night. Well, very frequently. I it BBC club, just by the BBC channels, please. Sanders, that's right, Sanders, with Noel P George previous

Roy Fowler  30:58  
people, Adrian worker was

Speaker 1  31:00  
an Andy worker, then was just a general project. This is before Shepparton, right?

Roy Fowler  31:05  
So there wasn't any time with Shepparton, no. And

Speaker 1  31:09  
this was a pilot that made the musical pilot. Why didn't shake up?

Roy Fowler  31:15  
Because did the company continue? Or was it the sonic Yeah, was it a one off?

Speaker 1  31:23  
I don't know what they were involved with. They were up here in Water Street

Unknown Speaker  31:32  
near the old act offices that used to be up here.

Roy Fowler  31:37  
Tony slowman particularly wanted to come in on this. I'm sorry he didn't make it today because he wanted to go into some of these companies, like planet. He was aware that he had worked for planet. I remember he wanted to talk to you on planet, tell us about Planet,

Unknown Speaker  31:55  
planet, Tom brake, they Bill Thomas and this. Building, offshoot of, not offshoot when daughter,

Speaker 1  32:16  
incidentally, I don't mind you. Get one more, one more session if you, if you meet Stoneman, yeah, all right, that's because it's a break. I'll go on. Yeah, we can

Roy Fowler  32:31  
always go back to it. Yeah. He will be much more knowledgeable than I about these particular films and companies. He might get more out of you.

Unknown Speaker  32:43  
Yes, Bill Thomas left butchers and formed panic both Tom Blakely distributing, that's the same sort of product.

Roy Fowler  32:58  
So they were distributors. Now they're done here as the

Speaker 1  33:00  
production company and and in conjunction with an FFC, again, setting up things

Roy Fowler  33:10  
releasing through Associated British I see that's right.

Speaker 1  33:22  
Normally, these other ones she troubled with, it was butchers,

Unknown Speaker  33:35  
yes, panicked, unhappily, they, they folded.

Unknown Speaker  33:45  
Why was that

Speaker 1  33:48  
general demise of the second feature and that that area of third production?

Speaker 1  34:02  
No? Yes, cheering charine was, was I was involved with them because I was an agent with whom I used to do business Lionel gross and Eric Ferguson. They had some offices around him, Tinley Street. This would be at the same time as I had an office. Was Bill luck, and it was time to leave. It was only a temporary measure anyway, and they had spare office on a Kingley street, so I took that office. There's when I was running baitford. Oh yes, I was setting up. I. I was setting up quite an ambitious one in Bray Ardmore.

Speaker 1  35:13  
And office, I went round to Kingley Street and chair and whilst then I did couple there bayford NFC contribution studio, always the usual setup. And then I had an idea for shorts. We're jumping a bit now. Oh, no, we're not 6060

Speaker 1  35:55  
Yes, we are 69 876, about 65 yes, these were, these were all around 65 but are more to and I had this idea. I called them screen minis. And Bob Gallico. Paul Gallico, his son, lived in Ireland. He was a friend of the grocer's, and he wanted to get into the business. Really, he was an actor, not bad Erin, he came over, put a bit of money down. Cheering was a spare company that they had. That's how cheering was formed, and that then became the makers of some shorts, some with NFC, some with studio participation, that sort of thing,

Speaker 1  37:18  
released through monarch distributors Now very often on the screen. Now keep on coming on, because when they were sold to television, I believe they had six women showings or something allowed. That'd be crazy.

Roy Fowler  37:38  
You get nothing out of it.

Speaker 1  37:41  
Not a lot you get something because the thing has run out. Yes, manage to get a bob or two now, it always infuriates me where they're screaming for products, yet when you do have something, I'll go into that one so that, where did that Spring from? Well, planet, okay, that's right, yes. And as I say, had your first door up here in this building.

Roy Fowler  38:26  
Do you remember who else was in this building? I think we did touch on this before. Well, at

Unknown Speaker  38:31  
some time Humphreys, of course. Yes, it was

Roy Fowler  38:36  
the Humphreys head office, yeah.

Unknown Speaker  38:41  
But what would the for that? Or I don't know, Planet

Roy Fowler  38:45  
didn't know the entire building.

Speaker 1  38:47  
No, of course, the first floor right way through to the back. Oh, hang about euros, you have a lot of time,

Roy Fowler  39:05  
yes, after or before, before?

Speaker 1  39:07  
Yes, over there, well established company, because I did a picture with Midshipman, yes, Goon, the guy after Matt Richard left,

Unknown Speaker  39:29  
right, he is testament around the corner.

Roy Fowler  39:32  
Yes, which was the Ardmore picture from two?

Speaker 1  39:36  
Two, no, no, no. Were they fitting to die.

Roy Fowler  39:40  
Were they for your company or, Yes, right? So have we come to now talking about you going into independent production rather than, Oh,

Speaker 1  39:49  
well, yes, I've jumped down some already.

Roy Fowler  39:55  
You set up yourself. Yes, yeah, okay, which, which was your first you recall? Yeah,

Unknown Speaker  40:05  
take it to paradise in 60, 1960, well, then freedom, then Dead Man's evidence.

Roy Fowler  40:19  
Tell us about your experience going into independent production.

Speaker 1  40:24  
Well, of course, hopelessly now with hindsight, hopelessly

Speaker 1  40:39  
wrong. Here's another word, but a copy you advised. Not exactly an advise, because I thought, see, I always thought that if I, if I produced something with the company, produced something, then all the profits, and then it would be mine. Instead of just having a director oral assignment, and, you know, getting a comparison with all the find, of course, it didn't work that way, because you had to fight the distributors in and fight everybody to get your money, and nine times out of 10 you were asked to defer and all this sort of thing. And the NFC was about the resource, of course?

Roy Fowler  41:43  
Well, yeah, I want to take you through that stage by stage. So your motivation was indeed to make to improve

Speaker 1  41:50  
my, hopefully improve my position in the in the industry by

Roy Fowler  41:55  
Yes, and also your financial reward by having ownership. Yes,

Unknown Speaker  42:02  
that's right. Okay,

Roy Fowler  42:09  
we're talking over 1960 You said that's your first How did one set about it? We have the National Film Finance Corporation in operation with its revolving fund. Was it in a healthy condition at that stage, they'd recovered from the depredations of Alexander coward,

Speaker 1  42:31  
Alexander belly coward, who goes and pinches 3 million to start or something. So

Roy Fowler  42:36  
what's their policy? At this point they are backing low to medium price British because do you know what their criteria were for acceptance of a project,

Speaker 1  42:53  
that the distributor be an established distributor, preferably with distribution discount, discountable contract,

Roy Fowler  43:13  
but not always. What would that contract be? How would it pay off. How could you discount the distributors paper

Speaker 1  43:23  
for one of the established banks, right? What was

Roy Fowler  43:27  
the scheme of payments? When did you get the money?

Speaker 1  43:32  
Well, the procedure would be right. I wanted to do right ticket to Paradise, example. So I guess, please progression, right?

Roy Fowler  43:44  
Let's start with ticket to Paradise, right, okay, but what I want to say is you're now determined to to go into business for yourself. You have an idea, or you have a property.

Speaker 1  44:01  
I have an idea. You have an idea. It wasn't the first one. Roy, the first one was, was, was, was, was, doesn't really matter.

Roy Fowler  44:10  
Oh, let's just take it as a test case or a case history. That's right, yes, yeah, right.

Unknown Speaker  44:18  
I now, Max Kester was a mate. Max Kester

Roy Fowler  44:24  
Darrell, Max, yes,

Speaker 1  44:30  
and he was a great charm of great charm of mine. Writer Vernon Harris, I and we're all around BBC time, and because that's when I did PC 49 you know, PC 49 which was done in Harris, center eight, Max, as one, happened over a jar somewhere, where I was looking for materials. Yeah, it was, Oh, I got one little thing I wrote some time back. Wasn't called that, but I forget what it's called. Anyway, I read it, I liked it, and gave it this title, and wrote a,

Speaker 1  45:27  
wrote up a synopsis, head words for his, I forget it was in, in the chair. It wasn't ever breeze. It was for Arrow. It doesn't matter whoever it was in the in the thing around it, around it, in FFC and and get a nodding approval, first, having first gone to distributor,

Roy Fowler  45:56  
the distributor would be known to you and You to them, so you had an entree on that ticket was

Speaker 1  46:05  
Eros, wasn't it? Yes, it was right. Disaster, disaster. Yes. Make shipment. Try it. Yes. Make a nice little picture. Pulls the cast so on, then

Unknown Speaker  46:31  
get a script up, which I had to pay?

Roy Fowler  46:36  
How much of an investment would that have been?

Speaker 1  46:39  
Brock Williams did the script, probably about 350

Roy Fowler  46:45  
an independent producer at this stage needs capital for an office. Yeah, an office overheads and to get a property to get to get together, there

Speaker 1  46:58  
was very little, very little upfront money. Having got a script, round to nffc, approve the script, no distribution agreement, first cast agreement, round to nffc. I want, whatever it is I want. It's 16,000 17,000 18,000 Goon budget is

Roy Fowler  47:21  
the agreement. It's very difficult when I'm listening to the tape and you enter me, I keep repeating myself. The point is, we're at the end of this tape, so I think we'll flip over and go on to a Longer, expansive tape. Okay, Do

Roy Fowler  0:04  
Francis, sir, site nine, yes. Francis, sorry about that interruption. The point I wanted to make was, what kind of assurance do you have from the distributor at this stage? Is it a Letter of Agreement, or actually, have you signed a distribution contract?

Speaker 1  0:18  
At that stage, you just get a letter saying that they like the thing and prepare to go into this so on and so forth,

Unknown Speaker  0:34  
on such and such terms, they would guarantee extra percent of the budget. We used to be about about 30% of the budget, something like that,

Speaker 1  0:55  
and to be discounted through Lloyds Bank or Barclays or whatever, because weren't many banks doing were a few banks doing discount, discount for guarantees, but they had their fingers burnt so many

Roy Fowler  1:12  
times. What was the discount in

Speaker 1  1:16  
general? Yes, if you got 30% discount

Roy Fowler  1:21  
as much as now. When was the distributors money forthcoming? Did it come in in tranches, in stages, or was it a negative pickup?

Speaker 1  1:33  
Or no that would that would be made along with the nffc money, they'd all be made available at the same time, because a separate production account would be I would use Lloyds Bank as my barter square. Right then I'd open up broker films, particularly paradise cap. All the money would go in there. NFC money, Lloyds Bank, money go in there.

Unknown Speaker  2:02  
Oh, first having cause, having gone through that much of legal stuff, be surprised, just for fiddling picture how much legal stuff,

Roy Fowler  2:13  
standard forms of contract? Oh yes, yes, but this too was an independent producer's expense. Oh, yeah, so you're very logic. Expenses, right? You know, sizable legal fees,

Speaker 1  2:30  
back and forth and back and forth and piddling about as you think you were doing wrong with the

Roy Fowler  2:34  
wind, all the other expenses, like getting the script, mimeograph, getting,

Speaker 1  2:41  
I would indent for that when the money was available, right over budget, accepted. Who did the budget? We do the budget under the production manager. So you had a production manager on staff, or you'd bring him in, bring him in, yeah,

Roy Fowler  3:00  
and all this is known to the producer, still, yes.

Speaker 1  3:06  
And having got the budget, that goes to an FFC, and that's gone through the tooth comb by the old John Peter Lucas doing business now, tooth comb, plus, of course, another big, big cuddle to overcome. They wouldn't touch it without a guarantor of completion, film finances. They threw it with a fine tooth comb. God, he hassles to go through get a few quid, what was the failure

Roy Fowler  3:44  
rate on projects that you experienced?

Speaker 1  3:48  
Would you say in terms of not making money? No,

Roy Fowler  3:52  
no, that's another point, no, in terms of those that you tried to float and those that actually took off? Oh, one in three. One in 10. What? No, I success.

Speaker 1  4:08  
Out of all this, you see, I wouldn't, I wouldn't put him up unless I'd first, unless I was pretty well satisfied yourself, because you don't want to waste a distributors time by putting up a little rubbish. So you use your own mouse for a start. And there were yes, oh yes, there were two teenage bride, which was a big one, very good one to get through the story. Great shame it. Come on. That's it. That was full script. I think I did all that lot I probably had i. The fraud didn't go off,

Roy Fowler  5:03  
and they were dropped by whom? Well,

Speaker 1  5:09  
by, well, take teenage bride. That was British lion. And it went on and back and forth. No, no real decision. I couldn't afford

Roy Fowler  5:23  
anymore. Yeah, you pulled

Speaker 1  5:27  
out. Keeps you buggering about weeks. Well, it's typical. Yes, they got their asses on nice cushion, chairs up. It's

Roy Fowler  5:36  
it's still your property. Did you ever try to then take it to someone else.

Speaker 1  5:43  
Couldn't be bothered. I put it in on the put on the back burner one day. Now where have I got to? Yes, right. Well, we've been through the budget with nffc. That's agreed the nffc budget, the NFC contracts, red ribbons and green ribbons and red seals and all that business.

Roy Fowler  6:08  
What was the NFCs? NFF sees criterion for accepting a project. Do you know? I mean, what did they make known to you, what they were looking for, and what satisfied

Speaker 1  6:23  
them in terms looking for anything in particular, they were looking for a viable proposition to

Roy Fowler  6:29  
invest in, to invest in. They didn't make any creative judgments. Judgments. Well, you see,

Speaker 1  6:39  
you sort of went to the NFC first, because they'd say, Look,

Roy Fowler  6:45  
they're money lenders, so they would come in on something that was rolling.

Speaker 1  6:48  
Yes, yeah, okay. Because I say, Look, you know, go to go to euros, get a thing first.

Roy Fowler  6:53  
Now, was there such a thing as an average budget at

Speaker 1  6:57  
that time? Oh, yes, which would have been how much? Well, they were all, they were all in this in the second feature category, they were going up slowly. But, you know, 20, 22,000, maybe, right.

Roy Fowler  7:09  
And how much could you look to the Philip Finance Corporation,

Speaker 1  7:18  
you'd have the discountable thing from the on the from the distributor, which was worth how much, probably about 30% you did. You then try and do a blanket with your studio, and then NFC coming for the rest. Right

Roy Fowler  7:39  
now, the the blanket with the studio was that on a deferment, was that an investment in

Unknown Speaker  7:48  
effect? Yes, the that they they would be bank would be first out. Of course, possibility interest,

Roy Fowler  8:07  
were they fully secured against the distributors? Yeah.

Unknown Speaker  8:16  
Julia deferment, next. Uh NFC, oh no, NFC and very pursue, usually, yes.

Roy Fowler  8:29  
Was it usual to have a lab deferment here? And

Speaker 1  8:33  
sometimes a lab deferment? Yes? Oh yes, I managed to get lab deferments of a part of it, you know, to gradually make it up, and then they'd come down and sort of whack me for a deferment for 25% of my fee, which was by then, Probably 600 quid, or something, gigantic grief, however, that's that was roughly the thing, except, of course, in the case of ticket to powers Eros goes bust, and I get six months in the pound. So that was a dead loss.

Roy Fowler  9:13  
Right now, what's the deal you the distributor

Unknown Speaker  9:22  
takes his 25% distribution

Roy Fowler  9:24  
fee, right? And how much are the profits?

Unknown Speaker  9:29  
And very often, about 20% of profit, right. And

Roy Fowler  9:34  
what are you in for in terms of profit? Oh,

Unknown Speaker  9:36  
not more than 25% do

Roy Fowler  9:38  
you have to share that? No, that's that's yours, free and clear. Was it usual at all to give points in the production to any of the others, the director or your stars or the writer? Yeah,

Speaker 1  9:50  
you might have to do a deferment with an artist or a writer, right when?

Roy Fowler  9:59  
In which case? Case, where did those points come from? The producers or the I mean, let's consider the distribution of potential profits, putative profits. How would they go?

Speaker 1  10:15  
Say, a writer deferred 5% deferred, against the fore focus, against 5% that would be a part of the irrevocable authority to come from the distributors revenues, and he would be paid direct, not through the company. So any artist deferment that would be paid direct from the irrevocable author, nffc, would take the land because they got the land sharing, would take the land share out.

Roy Fowler  10:48  
They are deferments, though, rather than profit sharing in effect, aren't they? I mean, nowadays you have to give points to get people. It's part of a negotiating procedure. But then it really was to

Speaker 1  11:04  
had to get its cost, and then defense came out. Yes, yes, but

Roy Fowler  11:10  
it was a way more of getting the production off the deck to a ghost state. Yeah, right,

Unknown Speaker  11:19  
heck of a lot, right?

Roy Fowler  11:21  
Well, indeed, indeed, very nervous, making and very risky. How many times actually did you turn a profit? Was that usual, or was it unusual, unusual, and would you put that down to, in quotes, creative accounting, I would do you think, in all

Speaker 1  11:41  
fairness, you could never, ever get a proper thing from distribution. There'd always be, could

Roy Fowler  11:48  
you demand your own accounting? Was that contractual?

Speaker 1  11:51  
You could Joe, but you wouldn't work for him again? No, I suspect right.

Roy Fowler  11:58  
So you never tried, not

Speaker 1  12:03  
really. You know, it might be litigation. You wouldn't have the bread to do it. So you just, I

Roy Fowler  12:13  
suppose running an audit on their books wouldn't, would cost a few.

Speaker 1  12:17  
It is all in the in the 50 pages of money, legal, whatever it is, the right to do this and the right,

Roy Fowler  12:23  
but even if you had the right, it would have cost you quite a lot of money, right in order to see, yeah,

Speaker 1  12:32  
but that was roughly the way, the torturous route, in order to get a few grand, and then had cut yourself into a nervous Ricky went and made the very picture.

Roy Fowler  12:46  
Was it? Do you think looking back worth it? Yeah, you enjoyed it. Oh, yeah, yeah. Now you as a working stiff, right? Producer, director, and in some cases, Writer. How are you surviving? This is out of your own savings, in effect, the money that you've amassed, or are you getting money out of the production as it progresses?

Speaker 1  13:13  
I have, yes, you see when, when, when, from the assignments I've had, I saved a bit, enough to tick over, knowing full well there's, in those days, there wasn't seed money, or whatever you know you can or if you did, like, if you wanted to borrow 500 quid, well, you'd have to give 50% your bloody picture away, something stupid like that. So I added Jack Phillips. I was short of 5% on the buddy came into five shorter, 500 quid. He took 5% of the bloody picture. Not Michael NFC wouldn't come up with any more. So, you know, it's all caught, but it was

Roy Fowler  14:06  
a hard business, and still is, still is, yes, was it a dishonest one? I mean, were you, as a matter of course, dealing with crooks, or were people acting in good faith?

Speaker 1  14:22  
Well? I never really trusted the selling side, because it was so, so difficult to get any satisfaction. You'd get your revenue returns, all this sort of thing, and you'd see the deductions, and you'd ring up about this, or you ring up about that, or there'd be transport figures down. And you know, you know bloody well that it doesn't, it doesn't take a van to deliver six water. And then when I think right now that that's down on on six or eight other you. Of the revenue statements, all this sort of thing. And then, of course, then when Edie came in and the buddy distributors took that as part of general revenue as well, that was, was the end. Mind you, that was partly the force of the bloody greedy producers at the time they didn't pay out. I wasn't involved in that particular time, but I swear to goodness, if the producers who had received that easy had paid it back into the correct sources, that might or because overnight, as you know, another story, this is good, overnight. How many bloody bucket distributors suddenly became producers and very cocky about it too? Oh, yes. And

Roy Fowler  15:57  
this was precisely the time of the great influx of Americans, yeah, not the fugitives from McCarthyism, but here specifically for Edie money. Oh yes,

Unknown Speaker  16:10  
it all went really far. The

Roy Fowler  16:12  
producer, the ED fund, was, was really curiously devised, wasn't it? Yes? Because the the money didn't stay in the business that just was pulled out, and it, more often than not, went abroad or into rich pockets to make them richer. Let's, let's hear your stories, your account of the ED fund, how it operated, because you must Well,

Speaker 1  16:35  
I think this again, quite honestly. Roy, to this day, I've never really, really understood it, because it was a fixed, you know, a fixed

Roy Fowler  16:51  
box,

Speaker 1  16:55  
and then with Your second features, you had ed, and then double Ed. And if it was a low budget thing, there was, there was another category. And of course, again, if you went out with a Duff, if your picture went out with a Duff, first feature and, and, and the bombs weren't on the seat, your ED dime, and nine times out of 10, your revenue from distribution was nearly doubled by your by your ED. So you picked up on your ED, which was, which was trying to start with, until the distributors got that much more greedy, took that as a part of general revenue and took that percentage off the whole lot, yes, which was bloody moral, but so what? Oh, it wasn't part of what? Of course, it was part of revenue in a way, but a very left handed one. Yeah.

Roy Fowler  17:58  
No. Again. An indication of how creative the distributors can be when it comes to getting money out of people. Yes, do you in your memories have any specific examples of abuses of Ed that's a general one, but, but can, can you remember stories at that time, whether they involved you or not.

Unknown Speaker  18:24  
No, I didn't. I had heard of because it was, it was usually some of these bucket shop distributors.

Speaker 1  18:42  
They agree all that on the line up to a sort of, you know, Friday evening and then you have a drink. Oh yes, of course, you know, if you want to get included as that sort of thing, you see, just before you can assign or if I've heard of that type of thing, or wanting a chunk of the deal.

Roy Fowler  19:12  
What under the counter? Yeah,

Speaker 1  19:14  
but I didn't. Well, I didn't make it. I didn't turn didn't do enough of really, I suppose, and I did about my own banner about 10 or so, but

Speaker 1  19:35  
it was an absolute lifesaver, of course, yes, but there again, you see this deep, this deflated the budget, because these Richard people knowing that the idea was going to be there, so right, you got to make a picture for far less now. So they got the finance. People or the distributor was everything. If I made a picture something 20,000 and it got 10,000 maybe next time around, you want that made for 17,012

Speaker 1  20:22  
days instead of 15 or something like that, so as to to cut down the thing, because his, his, his share was all right.

Unknown Speaker  20:38  
Oh, I got stacks of easy forms like revenue things

Roy Fowler  20:45  
well, as we said before, don't, don't throw them out. They can all go to the BFI, yes. Well, coming back to the productions specifically, on the one hand, there you are as the the entrepreneur. On the other hand, the characters got to make it work. That was it was very demanding, time consuming operation. You say it was worth it? Well,

Speaker 1  21:21  
yes. Well, it was, it was, it was in terms of power, things and pens, it wasn't worth it just

Roy Fowler  21:30  
making noises, making noises because

Speaker 1  21:39  
you could never make it. There were a few that will got real lucky and you went out with a bond or something. Oh, boy. I mean, he was weird. This happened to you. No Talk to me, but, but there again, you see, depend, depending on who friend was, who

Roy Fowler  21:58  
absolutely distribution, who own, yeah, who owned the picture? There are notorious examples of two dealers going out with bond pictures and making 100,000

Unknown Speaker  22:15  
pounds. Who's padded around it United Artists, whoever it was, well,

Roy Fowler  22:17  
also who's getting their shape? Yes, there's a

Unknown Speaker  22:23  
is clear there was a path between Jimmy careers, office and ABC there and ABC around the court. Letter CJ latter and backhanders, considerable Hannah. Considerable. That's the editor out in the kitchen, right?

Roy Fowler  22:49  
Did it give you what a good living, a reasonable living? Just

Unknown Speaker  22:52  
reasonable reason, not a good one? No.

Roy Fowler  22:59  
Why do you think that was if you'd been what more bent, or

Speaker 1  23:03  
if I'd been more bent, if I'd if I'd been less, less concerned about the product, about the product And about the people. Because

Roy Fowler  23:21  
would you find it easy to make crap just for money? No,

Speaker 1  23:24  
I couldn't do it. I couldn't do although I did. I did make some crap for the dancing because it didn't

Unknown Speaker  23:37  
I met Joe Leslie for the first time down to Riverside. Of course,

Roy Fowler  23:46  
we must, we must remember the dancing goods, and we must remember Ardmore. And there was something else that was in my mind to remember. All right, anything more to add your experiences as a as an independent producer, I wouldn't

Unknown Speaker  24:10  
wish it on it

Roy Fowler  24:13  
now say the kitchen is the place where you expect it to be hot. Yes,

Speaker 1  24:20  
it had its moments. You see and obvious, obviously, my you've got to have an ego and you like it massaged occasion.

Roy Fowler  24:32  
What are the rewards, other than whatever happens to come in, in the way of a check? Is it seeing your name up there. No, is it the pleasure of, as you see it, creating something?

Speaker 1  24:43  
Yes, it is just the creation of it. And then you look back up, did we get out of that lot? Do.

Unknown Speaker  25:02  
It's a bit of misguided idealism.

Roy Fowler  25:10  
Well, I don't know about idealism, but satisfaction, you all find satisfaction.

Speaker 1  25:20  
Ever do now, because there's no camera tea, there's no it's a money making machine, yes, with everybody for grabs, and couldn't get care daddy less about the product. Well, that's true, pretty obvious on the screen. That's true of the country, of course, sure. True of the country, and also that time, had a loyal crew around.

Roy Fowler  25:45  
And there was the the camaraderie of the studios.

Speaker 1  25:51  
Oh yes. And he always, this again, is a bit of egos. He always felt a bit good if somebody say, what do you do? Oh, not, not like now TV. Watch it. The whole thing is, emphasis has changed completely.

Roy Fowler  26:22  
Let's tidy up. Then. Let's start with the dancers. Your memories of the dancing award?

Speaker 1  26:30  
Couple of rogues, coward Jimmy, but thank you how successful I became, honey Mayfield hotel and what have you incredible. I don't know how the hell I first came in touch with him. Oh, I know I'd been I made a couple of pictures down that Riverside

Unknown Speaker  26:52  
run with brown Forbes. Oh, no, your last picture that was, yes, wheel of fate, that's right. And whilst I was down there, beginning of I really don't know, anyway, I was introduced to the dance just by Riverside, because they began to use Riverside Studios. And I don't know whether they got I can't remember the dates of it, but they knew I'd done some television stuff, stuff for television. And Joe Lucy was in the office next door, scribbling away on this crap.

Roy Fowler  27:49  
And you mean television series that is television series that he, Joe was working on

Speaker 1  27:54  
stories, television stories. They worked all that bloody bad, but except when I come to the point that later, the right thing was, I was there buddy script. We had to go up to his up to their place in

Unknown Speaker  28:13  
one of the big hotels. There was sweet Sunday morning. Oh, I see. Oh, I remember, yes, he rang me on a

Speaker 1  28:23  
Eddie. I was Eddie was the business one, and Eddie and Eddie and Harry. Harry was a music one, very good musician too. He was very good. Eddie was, he was the tough lad. I told him what I wanted. My agent said, I can do any agent.

Unknown Speaker  28:44  
It's this sort of aggressiveness that the Americans have on that side of thing.

Speaker 1  28:50  
Do you want to do this and practical up there on Sunday morning, there's a read through and all this sort of business.

Unknown Speaker  29:01  
And we shot in three days, not five. I did three. I think it was three or four. I did enough.

Speaker 1  29:14  
Dave McDonald was did a lot too. This is our first class director. Dave McDonald came operation director. I nearly creased in that was all right. They were fortunate in that minor element of the today, because I think it was relation had not to do with Paramount, Paramount cinemas or Paramount something else. And it was much, much later when I'd broken with Not, not, not, when I forget, what about broken? And I met somebody in the Wellington one time. He said, You know what sort of crap you're turning out. Now I couldn't, and I tried to think of the crap that I had been turning out. I. I said, No, I haven't got anything else you have, you know, just three of them round at the Pavilion corner. And sure enough, they're strong, three of them together and on a big screen, glad to yell so. I expressed my creating to no uncertain fashion, and that was good afternoon that weren't met for that at all public for summer screening. That was a paramount, I

Roy Fowler  30:43  
think it was controlled by United Artists, or

Unknown Speaker  30:46  
perhaps it was it Melvin knew anyway it was that. So that was

Roy Fowler  30:53  
astonishing. They would book it in, isn't, yeah, when you consider the amount of product that was available. Then again, it sounds it was a very bent deal somewhere.

Speaker 1  31:05  
But they were down at Riverside. They were turning them out, of course, and they had their own studios. If you please have an illustration. Yes. And Ernie Morris, my assistant on the leap, he started directing for them.

Roy Fowler  31:17  
Yes, they had the national studio, didn't they?

Speaker 1  31:20  
No, was it national and their their own studios, published national studios? Yes, no, that was fair banks,

Roy Fowler  31:29  
which one, which one was theirs. Had built. They built it, purpose built.

Unknown Speaker  31:38  
Either that, but

Speaker 1  31:45  
I can see it, but it's just on a hill before you come up into Elstree and turn around

Roy Fowler  31:54  
off the a one. Do I mean from that side or from the Elstree side?

Unknown Speaker  32:02  
I really don't know. Anyway, it was theirs. It was their studios.

Roy Fowler  32:10  
Yes, is it there? Noel, a name that you mentioned earlier that you wanted to come back to, was Lance comfort.

Speaker 1  32:19  
Oh, well, I mentioned it, yes. Well, Lance was Douglas Fairbanks is oC production at British national, and there were a couple Bob Drummond and something else double integrity or identity or something or other. Noel,

Unknown Speaker  32:46  
I was asked to do, and thought dad was impeccable, carnation, whatever, right places. Now, one nice little story about him, somehow or other, I

Speaker 1  33:06  
got hold of, I was loaned about 100 feet of or couple 100 feet or something, of a body's American or his historical extravaganza, and there was a marvelous black alien fig in it, with a whole lot of people running around in their birthday suits and the wine always sort of thing, one of those bawdy I got hold

Speaker 1  33:55  
of this in color. I took it out to be but it's national total art rushes. So had had the rushes on, and Douglas was there, and after he'd seen it, but he could that wasn't born a rapid I think it was just that shout from the from the project, can you see that again? Jeff, the first time twice, got on pretty well, but they very much a club has a British nationalist, Douglas.

Roy Fowler  34:47  
How long was he the How long did you work for? How he did three

Unknown Speaker  34:56  
sort of alternated directors. You see, I.

Roy Fowler  35:00  
Yes, Rheingold theater of the year. That was it? Rheingold theater, yeah, I remember seeing it in the stage. You were saying, What a happy time you had at Ardmore.

Speaker 1  35:11  
Yes, yes, yes. Well, this was in the days of the lovely man Emmet Dalton. I was a very, very big name in Dublin, of course, not in the business, but he was in a business. He had an office down here in Piccadilly somewhere, and he was sponsoring Bob Baker and Monty Berman,

Speaker 1  35:51  
and he was part responsible for the building and opening up of far more. And it was in a lovely situation at Bray.

Speaker 1  36:09  
Ronnie Lyles was with Tempe. He was out there. Kendrick from Riverside Studios. He went out there to oversee the studio side and so on. Of course, I had to train everybody, because first studio there of any,

Roy Fowler  36:28  
did you find it efficient to work there? It was efficient a little

Speaker 1  36:32  
bit to get a bit patient. They were terribly willing and very, very keen to I think there was a little studio there called Silver pine that was for commercial stuff, I think not far from hardmore. And I got this subject freedom to die, which called for subjects. I read in the read that much in the paper. I got it set up, main thing, and couldn't get a studio here at the time, so Charlie Leeds was with me, and we thought about art more. So he went over there, did a deal,

Unknown Speaker  37:27  
and did a deal for two actually, back to back didn't work out. So we shipped everybody over there. I and still came out on on budget. It was distributed by butchers, freedom to die. NFC were in on it. The Irish film Finance Corporation was in on

Unknown Speaker  38:01  
it. And wasn't at all bad. Thought it was a very nice studio, and I stayed on to work on another subject, but I couldn't get it scripted in time, so I had to wrap that one up. And then I got done by the act, because somebody and they got back, put in a pretty great thing for

Unknown Speaker  38:34  
now, I came to the arrangement of an arrangement I kept on one of two or three people, like it was.

Speaker 1  38:45  
For expenses, but when they go back, they change their mind. They put in for full wages, which cost me 300 quid. I had to do it. That's a bit naughty.

Roy Fowler  39:04  
What have been your dealings? Your relationship with act you joined? When do you recall?

Unknown Speaker  39:11  
Yes, 46 Well, I've met a lot of dealings.

Unknown Speaker  39:33  
I had a couple of brushes with I

Unknown Speaker  39:44  
who followed George Erwin

Roy Fowler  39:46  
Union General Secretary, Alan Souther,

Unknown Speaker  39:51  
still here, yes, oh, it must have been. That. Must have been with George when I on one of these things I had, I had. Some later on. Yes, I wanted to make use of Irish camera man and assistant, and even though they'd got tickets over there. They made me take somebody over from here, which increased

Roy Fowler  40:29  
the days of the Union strength. So you were just really a lay member. You remember because you had to be a member. Do you never participated in the Union exhibit 26 did you look inevitably

Unknown Speaker  40:44  
upon them? Because? Did

Roy Fowler  40:46  
you resent them, though, other than these occasional experiences when they ran, counted it your wishes as a producer, not.

Speaker 1  40:56  
Now I see I don't resent any of that sort of thing. It's what I do resent. Are there other stupid ones who shout and scream and become too greedy, of which happens in every area. That's it. And if they if half the energy was, was, was was put to making a funny picture that's wasted on the hot air, maybe better pictures, there's still one. Now, of course, I'd given up all together any hope of any sort of

Speaker 1  41:41  
relationship of many pleasant relationships, it's all gone. But, you know, it's the bolschiness of it which is sad, and I am aware that way back there were naughty producers who didn't pay and who screwed everything out of everybody but Golly. That's happened that's in every walk of life, and not every talk about what I mean. I

Speaker 1  42:27  
But as always, there's reaction on the Pendle swings too far the other way. But now I get on with very friendly with everybody. Okay? Leech, and is it Leach? Yes. Incidentally, I was concealed Jeff here sometime, he never sent me my card back. It doesn't matter. Oh, Roy. I wish him well. But when I get the great six things of amendments to rules, I think, God, I suppose.

Roy Fowler  43:22  
Well, I happen to be many ways fond of ACTT without being blind to its defects. And one of the things you can say about the union is that it's, I would suspect, the most democratic of all. So all those sick rules revisions are part of that democratic process of things being referred up and referred back and entirely open to the membership for decision and the membership itself, in its aggregate, is only to blame if the union takes the wrong direction, it means that the people who are criticizing probably haven't participated. It's very easy to stand on the sidelines and kibitz and say, This is wrong. They should do this, but they can easily change things by actually going to meetings and joining in

Unknown Speaker  44:20  
then I

Speaker 1  44:27  
tend to to her rather short for you. Sometimes a lot of people do and unless one can be really articulate, and a lot of people make a real heart out of meetings.

Roy Fowler  44:45  
I wish I Yes, and it's unfair that a meeting can be swayed by a good speaker when someone with a better brain is more inarticulate. I agree with that. But then again, by and large, you.

Speaker 1  45:01  
Yeah, no, it's yes. I suppose, I suppose it's probably better now than it was. There was a time when I couldn't stand the sight

Roy Fowler  45:14  
of Oh yes. It became contentious.

Speaker 1  45:21  
Really, too much of a thing. But now I suppose, with, with, with

Roy Fowler  45:28  
that was the point at which they were going to nationalize the film industry with our compensation.

Unknown Speaker  45:34  
You know, yes, that's right.

Roy Fowler  45:40  
And there was a massive meeting at Central Hall Westminster, when the membership finally took it back into into its own keeping got rid of the trots. We're coming to the end of the side, I think was turnover, and come to A I

Roy Fowler  0:01  
This is side 10. I don't think there's a lot to lot more to be said about act from your point of view, then we're now. I guess coming towards the end certainly of this session, we can always pick up again if you wish to. Don't, don't rattle the papers.

Unknown Speaker  0:16  
Definitely, definitely

Roy Fowler  0:20  
be drummed out of the you will Yes, yes, and Noel, I'll be thrown out of the sound section, which I was never remember. The summation to all this, France is looking, looking back now from, what is it over 50 years? Is it 50 years? More than 50 years activity? Well, it's got to be, it's got to be 38 so that would be 38 and you were going, Oh, dear, I shouldn't have said that. Would you have done things differently?

Unknown Speaker  0:59  
I wouldn't have been so trusting number one,

Roy Fowler  1:04  
who lets you down? The distributors? No it

Speaker 1  1:13  
by that, I think I mean not the fact of being let down. But

Speaker 1  1:30  
do I mean by that pretty sweeping statements I better try and justify.

Roy Fowler  1:35  
Well, I'm curious where you think the problems lay. Who got you being

Speaker 1  1:42  
too concerned about everything and everybody, as I've said before, having a bit of a having a conscience, not being able to cheat too much.

Roy Fowler  1:57  
Would you say, though a completely, totally honest person can survive? No, I wouldn't have thought so,

Speaker 1  2:06  
but I and but it screw, will be screwed. Yes, if I'd had my chance again, I'd try and learn how to bend the rules or bend or get my fingers in the toe without being caught, I don't think I've been that silly.

Roy Fowler  2:26  
Well, I know what you mean to get your share, because usually your share was preempted, yes,

Speaker 1  2:36  
or your fair share, yes, I found myself always doing so much more work and was necessary because I was trusting. I trust people's word on things, and I didn't quite work out and find myself doing it myself, that sort of situation. What was that question? Would I do it again? No, you didn't say that. Did you well, what would you have done differently? Differently?

Speaker 1  3:18  
Ah, yes. I would have got out of it, out of movies, into television, if that's what you mean by what I would have done, career

Roy Fowler  3:31  
decisions, yeah, yes,

Speaker 1  3:35  
I, I was, I was still stupid enough to think there was a future in movie, right?

Roy Fowler  3:45  
My television was the preeminence area.

Speaker 1  3:48  
I did make some attempts, half hearted ones. Admittedly, there's one or two chums. Dennis fans directs a chum and her televisions. Television. But even then, I was beginning to find that it was the long haired geniuses and the young things and the boys from university. What have you?

Roy Fowler  4:14  
Dennis was in early but he middle period, he lost out to those same

Unknown Speaker  4:26  
television as well, I

Roy Fowler  4:27  
think so. Yes, he had a good period there that, yes, it tailed off for him. Yes, the people with the suits arrive. They always do, always do.

Unknown Speaker  4:41  
Roy, don't they? Yes? Now that's one thing not to have been, to have been more foreseen. Chuck, whatever is not really making the bread. And so that's lack of courage, partly, perhaps, yeah,

Roy Fowler  5:11  
what were the rewards and what were the disasters? I think we've touched on the rewards the disasters. I guess we've also covered well

Speaker 1  5:22  
disasters of you know, two distributors going best, which meant there's very, very little revenue, just a bit of fee.

Unknown Speaker  5:39  
Not, not really big disasters,

Speaker 1  5:48  
fortunately. Oh, and also, you see, I shouldn't have been so sensitive about things. That's one of the very big problems when Terry Fisher came in

Unknown Speaker  6:01  
and and hammer was going towards horror. Okay, Terry and I were together. We did the Pat O'Brien picture together. Terry was not all that easy to get on with because of the sherbet

Unknown Speaker  6:21  
and on some ridiculous sort of being over sensitive about horror films. I couldn't my mom, I wouldn't go that way at all. I thought it was

Speaker 1  6:41  
an abuse to see it is, you know, making money out of any damn scene in the same way as videos and pornography and All that stuff which has become so popular.

Unknown Speaker  7:01  
So, yes, that,

Roy Fowler  7:11  
actually, you've reminded me that we didn't talk about Terry Fisher as much, perhaps as we ought. We

Speaker 1  7:17  
weren't all right. I mean, he made, he did one for, for, for, for

Speaker 1  7:30  
Act, and then we joined forces for this patter, brown picture, kill me tomorrow. Three, we did out at South Hall, which was quite good. It was for George Minter, renowned, and I told you about Pat O'Brien and so on. He was turned out to be a lovely man, apart from something good actor, of course, I saw later on, when he was over here a couple years ago, and Terry and I were like close personal friends as well. He used to be tricking them, but he did like his show, but a bit too much.

Roy Fowler  8:23  
Was he a bad drinker? As they say, yes. Well, aggressive

Unknown Speaker  8:32  
used to get me catchy years.

Roy Fowler  8:35  
Did he drink when he worked? No, no, no.

Speaker 1  8:42  
We all remember. When we were out at South or No, hopefully used to fall gallon in the evening, local with patterns. But when I went to his, his funeral, his agent, Trey, Ted, had I seen him? John, John, John Redway, he was there and Tony Hines, I said, Noel, just as well. He gone completely to pieces. Apparently, he is. He was a lovely broker, really,

Speaker 1  9:30  
but that so we didn't continue with that association, because then he became number one with Jim crews. Of course, made

Roy Fowler  9:40  
a fortune, a very successful period,

Speaker 1  9:47  
things, and I think that probably got to him a bit, but I hadn't got the stomach for that sort of thing, which, of course, is where the money was. Yes, well, it doesn't a matter of me trying. It's a matter of the other people accepting a director as if you know if he's over sensitive about somebody's intestines being flung around the place. From

Roy Fowler  10:25  
what are your creative roots? Would you say? What What has been your vision as a writer and as a director?

Speaker 1  10:36  
Well, it's not. The writing is very much second. And much more, much, much more difficult for me. The coming the roots go back, of course, to, if you mean by what my basic, basic feelings about it to me, yes,

Roy Fowler  10:59  
if you wanted to communicate something with your films, what was it attitudes? Oh, I

Unknown Speaker  11:07  
see. Ah, no, this is getting into a

Speaker 1  11:19  
would I like to have been involved with films with

Roy Fowler  11:22  
messages I'm saying. What was if there was an underlying ethos to your films? Could you put it into words, or were you, in effect, a journeyman director who made whatever film came along within your own

Speaker 1  11:44  
research. I think that probably that's a good expression, man.

Speaker 1  11:52  
I found the medium exciting, stimulating, exasperating, and all the other meetings I can think of,

Roy Fowler  12:08  
but maybe one can draw parallel with those people we call jobbing actors, which is not any kind of derogatory term, but they will take on what oh is offered to them. Would that be fair? No,

Unknown Speaker  12:22  
I wanted to. Oh yes, because I made so many cops, robbers, the things I really enjoyed doing with the light comedies. I loved the idea of because all the shorts I did were comedies, being in a theater and hearing people laugh.

Roy Fowler  12:48  
Now I'm not seeing those films Frances. Were they films that were part of a British approach to comedy, which invariably was class based, always seems to me. It makes me very uncomfortable, because always so incredibly middle class with rather accidents. And there's Kathleen Harrison playing the funny maid. Were they? Oh,

Speaker 1  13:08  
very different. Barbara Marlon, art of low Bill Maynard, Eddie burn, Irish

Roy Fowler  13:14  
comedies of character comedies and characters act rather than situation. Yes,

Speaker 1  13:21  
but then, but they were sort of light hearted. Yes, light hearted things. Monarch wanted to responded, take Brown, a whole lot of trouble with Arthur Noel and Bill Maynard and Dick Madden and so on and so forth. Looking out my window one day, though I used to live in ther Street, used to look down on the road, and there were half a dozen people, half a dozen bloke acting away there. I looked out again, but four hours later, bit of an audience around the story. A whole lot of trouble, and that's how the play made it of course, after though the pomp as counseling,

Roy Fowler  14:28  
what for you is the secret of comedy? Is it in timing, or is it in the situation, a

Unknown Speaker  14:36  
basic, simple situation, which develop you?

Roy Fowler  14:42  
With words or

Unknown Speaker  14:45  
have an absolutely sound and a sense of the absurd, it's essential and. Are absolutely bang on casting, so they don't have to go outside their range too much in comedy or over act too much.

Unknown Speaker  15:18  
Then, if you've got your right characters in your right situation, the dialog should take care of itself.

Roy Fowler  15:30  
Who's your favorite performer?

Speaker 1  15:33  
Oh, Arthur Noel, I think because I had it in playing meanies way back, nasty little money lender type of thing. And then he did these two down at Bucha, and he was top of the top of the tree BECTU. We got on well, and on previous occasions, went up and saw him at his age. Now, doesn't matter, and I go and take him, first one he did was, or first one was, hold on. And he did. All goes to show afterwards, they've all been on the box several times. And I've only paid him 300 quid or

Roy Fowler  16:39  
something when he was, when he was top of his learning part, he was faithful to his old mates. Was it Yes?

Speaker 1  16:55  
And you know, we kick it, kick a scene around and a bit, chuck that away for a moment, and he come up with something very good. An absolute stickler for time, couldn't stand being what is professional heaven sake. Little bit full, a little bit Prickly, sometimes, particularly if he was called, not used for an hour. That was the due respect. Took quite odds, you see,

Speaker 1  17:39  
and we got very offended. He used to have a used have a boat on the

Unknown Speaker  17:49  
used to live at the back of her Muse Kensington, and because I had I had his wife in a couple of pictures, Joe, he had a sweetie too.

Unknown Speaker  18:12  
And all goes to show was he was very good in that entertainments manager, little country place.

Roy Fowler  18:23  
It sounds a typical Arthur. Lauren, well, it was

Unknown Speaker  18:26  
right casting domain, Alder crafts, eight artists. Agent, you say, provides all the wrong artists. That's quite good. Yes, sir.

Roy Fowler  18:40  
Well, summing up. How would you sum up? I'll leave it to you

Unknown Speaker  18:49  
to sum up. It's

Speaker 1  19:00  
Yeah, well, it certainly is an entirely wasted exercise. I'd have liked to have

Speaker 1  19:20  
got a bit more out of it, but then you see, we haven't finished, have we? I'm still on it. Now

Roy Fowler  19:27  
you're still working, yes, and

Speaker 1  19:30  
I've had two wasted years of learning hard work and writing. Neither of them come up. So they go on the back burner. They will sometime, but with this latest opportunity, I.

Speaker 1  20:00  
Well, I shall get many more opportunities. So trying to have a Besche Edison make it a good one, I won't attempt to get involved in the jungle again. I don't mind doing some nice second unit directorial work or something

Unknown Speaker  20:23  
like that, to to be in the jungle. So summing up, am I summing up? Yes, it's, it's I said what I would do if I had another go at it. I'd certainly put quite a number of things, not, not do quite a number of things that I had done.

Speaker 1  21:00  
And you see, it's difficult not to go with the stream if you wanted. That's why the referring back to the to the horosta, if I'd gone along with that and I made a couple, then I've probably been on with with hammer. But then, of course, they, they changed it. They changed direction in the end. And of course they all Michael became director. And how successful, I wouldn't know, but not. It was all hot.

Roy Fowler  21:46  
It's very cyclical anyway, his season, but yes, he ended, the same as true of hammer, yes. But, of course, a lot of them,

Speaker 1  21:56  
if you could, if, if the one person can amass, say, in three years, but you,

Roy Fowler  22:01  
but you can't, you can't keep

Speaker 1  22:06  
it. If you get a nice lump in that year, you'll tax and so on. The only people who really, really benefit are your women, owners of the property, is to resell themselves. I mean, what's happening now, all these libraries being sold for millions? Oh, boy,

Roy Fowler  22:25  
yes, yes. It never ceases to amaze me, how much money using copyrights, music, films, yes.

Unknown Speaker  22:34  
So on that note. No, I don't think there's anything.

Roy Fowler  22:48  
I think we've tried to delve as deeply as it's possible to do. So we'll leave it open, so that if you feel that we've been shy or short in any area? Yes, I will ask Tony slowman specifically if he would like to have a session, because, as I say, maybe he can come up with more informed. We

Speaker 1  23:12  
were talking some way, way back about all this memorabilia. Yes, I have a wild suggestion, and you mentioned the name of somebody who's a lady, I think one's name or something. Well, yes, there's such a lot of it, and this is only a wilder suggestion. And whether it's practical or not, I don't know, but if it is and some convenient time, some time convenient, put it into mention, could whoever it is come to my place at Wimbledon, spend a day, rewind them down and feed it water well, I've got all this stuff like that, and so they could sift through, I think probably that's practical,

Roy Fowler  24:13  
I don't know. Oh, yeah, I think probably what they would like to do is to take it up and then sort it out over a period of time, I think they'd find it difficult to go through it in

Speaker 1  24:26  
I mean, by that, Roy I mean, okay, no, that is obviously too much of a thing. Okay, we'll have that, that sort of thing, not in detail, but that sort of thing.

Roy Fowler  24:39  
Well, I'll suggest this to Francis Thorpe, who is the Deputy Director of Library Services, I think title, and I'll ask her to contact, you

Speaker 1  24:53  
know, in no sort of order, I'll try and get some, I think I said that before, trying to get some things in Act. And. A bit easier said than done. No,

Roy Fowler  25:02  
I'm sure they'll be extremely interested. And then the best thing, I can't speak for them how they want to approach it, oh, no, no, no, that'd be quite happy to to do that and separate

Unknown Speaker  25:13  
office, you see, right?

Roy Fowler  25:14  
Well, there are now several. There are two principal areas of deposit. One is the BFI and the National Film Archive. They now have the new depository, or repository, out in berkhamston. And there is the Bradford Museum, the National Museum of photography, film and television, which is relatively new. It's five years old. It celebrated its fifth birthday just a couple of weeks ago and was named museum of the year, and now building, they're growing, and the big hump for them is they've been given the Kodak collection, and they're getting that into a new gallery, which will open in April, and thereafter they'll have more time to spend, but I like them very much people there, and so I always suggest them too as a possible source. I've more or less made up my mind that I'm going to give them my library, because they've got a fairly respectable library of on film scripts and books and things like that stills, so I think I'll give that to them, but I'll ask Francis to contact you, and you can talk about anyway. The tape is still rolling, so what I will do is thank you very much for your time giving us these sessions. And I was saying with Tony, I'll see if that's possible to arrange. Rather depends on his professional career and in yours at this stage, but it may well be will open up again to

Speaker 1  26:46  
take well, quite actually, it's not a bad idea to get out and make a break from it for day anyway. So at your service, sir,

Roy Fowler  27:01  
thank you at any time, right? Well, my best. Thanks, Francis, now you're very welcome. You.