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Speaker 1 0:04
Alright, let's just start a little bit about you, you can tell me a little bit about yourself, your name, your date of birth, where you grew up, and things you're interested in.
Speaker 2 0:12
My name is wasI Mahmoud. I was born in Lahore in Pakistan, and my nationality is British. Okay.
Unknown Speaker 0:20
And have you won any awards for your work?
Speaker 2 0:24
Yeah, I was awarded an OBE in the 2005, New Year's Honours List for contribution to the reconstruction of media post war, or post conflict.
Speaker 1 0:38
Fantastic. Congratulations. Thank you. So let's go back a bit. And talk about your upbringing, what Tell me a little bit about your upbringing and how you grew up and what your world was like.
Speaker 2 0:53
I was brought up, I'm I'm second generation. So my father came in the first in the 60s. And he came in that first flood of immigrants that came over. So he came over and around about 61, something like that. And I followed. I was born in Pakistan and came over when I was one and a half. And we were brought up very much in in small Heath area of Birmingham, which was a very Asian very ethnic area. There was that tendency of people who came from particular area to sort of congregate in areas together just for this comfort. And then a roundabout when I was 10, we moved to city park. And that's where I spent most of my life growing up. And
Speaker 1 1:49
so where did you go to school? And what kind of subjects did you like?
Speaker 2 1:53
I went to school in mostly Grammar School for Boys, which was on the Wakefield road. I it's very difficult. I think, looking back, I think I enjoyed very much enjoyed English, I loved English. I loved history. I think those were the two that really stuck out.
Speaker 1 2:17
So what did your parents do? And how did they influence your career? Well,
Speaker 2 2:20
both my parents were journalists. So I sort of grew up in what they were all journalists. So they were very much there was an there was a tremendous need in those days for news from back home. When somebody used to come back from Pakistan, one of the things they used to bring was newspapers. And these newspapers just used to go around the community about, you know, everybody will read them. And my father and his friends saw that the and his colleagues saw that there was this need for news from back home. And they started a magazine, which was a weekly newspaper, giving the giving the Pakistani community news from back home. My mother then subsequently, later on, started one for women, which was a monthly magazine for women. Because again, there were a lot of issues that were not that needed to be addressed. And she, she felt that there was a need for that. So my brother and I both grew up in this environment where we were surrounded by journalists and journalism all the time. So that really was the only life we ever knew. I remember that. My mother when she started her magazine, we couldn't really afford to have the magazine collated, put together and stapled. By the printers, it was pushing the price up to a point where we couldn't afford it. So one weekend, every month, my brother and I used to just have these piles of pages piled up, and we'd put them together and then staple them. Yeah, in those days, we'd get paid a fiver I mean, look in the 70s supply was a hell of a lot of money. But yeah, we were always involved in that. That's great
Speaker 1 4:14
and good little cottage business. Do you by any chance, remember what the newspaper and the magazine were called? Yeah.
Speaker 2 4:21
My father's magazine was called mushrik. The East and my mother's was called Khurana and Khurana means household. What does Mushrik mean? Why should we East east, okay.
Speaker 1 4:36
That lends itself to something that probably happens later on in your career at the BBC and the names of the programmes you worked on, I think. Tell me about going into university. What did you study? Yes.
Speaker 2 4:52
I had I went to Sutton Coldfield College of further ado. occasion. The reason I went there was because I specifically wanted to do drama. And drama was not considered to be something, you know that Asian kids did. I think they don't even think necessarily, you know, something that they do now. So some things have probably never changed. So the compromise with my parents was that look, you can carry on and do this as long as you get formal education. So I was doing drama A level in fact, I was on the pilot course it was the first time it had ever been done. And the only place doing it was Sutton. Sutton Coldfield, and yeah, I mean, like everybody else, I had these visions of being a thespian. However, something happened at the college, which made me believe that I was not cut out for this life. It happened in a improvisation class. And we were supposed to be trees. And I was not being a tree. I was just standing there with my arms like this. And I was not feeling it, I was not being a tree. And at that moment, it dawned on me, I was not cut out to be an actor. And I just thought it was much better to tell people to be trees than to be a tree. And so I moved into direction. However, the, you know, the, the irony of that story is that the best actor in the class was somebody called John Murray. And John came on and did some work with me. And we were sitting somewhere in Kabul at one stage and said, you know, with bombs falling around you and I said, John, I must ask you one question. Improvisation. Did you ever believe you were a tree? Or were you being a tree? And he said, No, I just stood there with my arms up. And I said, God, at that point, it dawned on me that the world had been deprived of my thespian skills, I mean, diminish, we could be doing this interview, my poolside in Bel Air mansion. If I hadn't. If that hadn't had happened, I'm afraid.
Unknown Speaker 7:07
Just as an aside, there are so many parallels with my life. Maybe later, being a three. Because I always wanted to be an actor as well.
Speaker 1 7:16
I think we all. So tell me about going into university, what did you study?
Speaker 2 7:25
I went to Worcester University. And I, again, was studying drama. Again, that was part of this compromise with my parents that you can carry on doing drama, as long as you are getting formal education. So I was going to get my degree, but then I was also doing psychology and social biology. So I'd finished the first year of my course, and actually had positive drama with flying colours, but failed the other dude. So sitting around, twiddling my thumbs preparing for research, and I saw the job advertised for the BBC, and applied and ended up getting it. Okay,
Speaker 1 8:08
so let's find out a little bit more about that. So you joined the BBC in 1982, as a very young man. And it's quite an interesting story and how you got that job. Tell us a little bit more about that. The
Speaker 2 8:19
job specifically was for the Asian programmes unit. And it was advertised in the evening mail in those days. And aforementioned, John Murray was at drama school, down the road from where I lived, and he suddenly turned up at my doorstep one day and said, Hey, have you seen this? And I said, No. You said, You're gonna apply for this, aren't you? And I said, No, because they don't take producers at 21. Of course, I'm not going to apply for it. He said, No, I think you're going to get it, you should go for it. So I thought it through and thought, you know, what, if nothing else, I'm going to learn how to fill out a BBC form, do a personal statement. And you know, I'd go through the process. I actually knew Ashok rampolla was the executive producer. Well, my parents did. So I rang Ashok up and said, Listen, Ashok, Tell me truthfully, do you think there's any chance I'm wasting everybody's time? And he said, Look, the only person who can answer that is you stand in front of a mirror and ask yourself the question. And I did and I thought, you know, give it a go. And so I went into the process not expecting to get any further. A few weeks later, I got invited to a board. And again, I thought look, you know what, I'm not going to get this so you know, they're not going to take me so I just went into this board and I mean, I remember to this day that I went I didn't even bother to wear a suit or a tie. I went with a you know, a black cords, a black shirt and a white blazer. Look don't damage comment on my subtle real choices. The But it was very fashionable in those days. But the point being that I did not go in and tie in a suit, okay. And I thought, You know what, this is the only time I'm going to actually have so many senior BBC people here. So if nothing else, I'm going to tell them what I think of their programming. And that's what I did, because I didn't have anything to lose at that point. And so, six weeks later, I got a call from the BBC saying, can we speak to Mr. Mahmood? And I said, oh, sorry, my dad's out at the moment, thinking that they wanted him to come and comment on something that was going on. And they said, Mr. Mossimo, I said, Oh, speaking. And that was it. They it was personnel saying, we'd like to offer you a job. And that was it. It was as simple as that.
Speaker 1 10:42
Fantastic. Congratulations on getting that job. Thank you. Only in the BBC would people call job interviews a board that brings back memories. So tell me a little bit more about what you knew of the Asian programmes unit and the kind of work that they did. I
Speaker 2 10:56
think like everybody else. Of my age, we knew what the Asian programmes unit was doing. We all used to get up on Sunday morning and watch it on BBC One. So we were very conscious of what they were doing. My parents were because of the community that they were in the journalistic community. Well, we're very good friends with Mohinder and Salim, and Ashok and all the other team that was doing it. So I actually remember that as an eight year old going along to recording a caster green of some music that they were doing. And that was it. I think that's when it clicked for me. But as opposed to print, this is what I wanted to be doing. I just found the whole place magical. And, you know, love the lights, love the hustle and bustle, loved it all. And I knew it was the life for me. So I went into it with a certain knowledge of what was to be expected. But I think what they were looking to me to do was to shift the shift the do a lot more for the younger people. And you'll find that a lot of programmes that I did was in English, it was about subjects that were relevant to younger people about identity about arranged marriages about, you know, racism, but it was all the programmes that it was all the issues that were I know that I faced when I was growing up. That's great.
Unknown Speaker 12:21
And a lot of that stuff still relevant now.
Speaker 2 12:25
Not sure the irony is that you say that. The irony is that I was recently digitising a lot of my VHS and I came across a couple of discussions that I'd done about racism way back in the 80s. And the unfortunate thing is that I could play them today and they'll be relevant. Yeah,
Speaker 1 12:44
no, I fully agree. And you can imagine that I think we've looked at some of the programmes from the 80s and watch them now and they they are still so relevant. Can you tell me a little bit about the history of the immigrants unit and then what became the Asian programmes unit?
Speaker 2 12:59
Okay. Aye. Aye, I joined at a point where we had transitioned from the immigrants unit into the Asian programmes unit. We Ashok Ron Powell had taken over as executive producer, the two previous producers, Salim Shahid, am I in the call had left. And in their place, they had been for assistant producers. But we were all acting as producers. So there was use of this, who was the cameraman from London, he'd worked on loss of the summer wine and a lot of these big programmes, and he was in there, especially hay, who had been a editor on local, middle and state. And so he was another one. And there was Christian Gold, who was Bush House, and he was there as a producer, and then myself, we were all led by Ashok Rampaul. So we were effectively in that transition from nice Indigo near geven. I mean, we even changed the name to Asian magazine to make it more relevant to a younger audience and more accessible. That
Speaker 1 14:13
sounds fantastic. And yeah. Great pioneering work, I think, following on from the people who created the immigrants immigrants unit and the work that they had been doing. So you mentioned the producers, how did you all work together? And did you specialise in anything in particular?
Speaker 2 14:33
No, I think the way we worked was that we had one programme every four weeks. And so we produced a programme every four weeks, and we all contributed to each other's programmes, and we'd go on doing search and whatever. If there was to be a specialisation of mine, it was dealing with young people and young people's issues and highlighting those other than that, I think we do Did everything Oh, oh yeah, I picked the short straw. And because I was the youngest, I had to do all the guard bonds. Guard bar was the women's programme. And we didn't do that on a weekly strike. We used to do stockpiles, and whenever we got a studio, and then play them out, and because, as I said, obviously youngest, I sort of was responsible for doing all of those. That's really
Speaker 1 15:25
interesting that you're talking about having a stockpile. And when you have a studio, so how was the BBC supporting the programmes that you were making? So programmes like Asian magazine and GoBar,
Speaker 2 15:36
I think pebble mill and the management at Pebble mill, and everybody above was very, very supportive of the programmes. I think, you know, and we did a lot, there was only for effectively assistant producers acting as producers, we had no researcher, we had two pas, and a radio secretary. And that was it. And we were doing half an hour radio every week on radio for we were doing half an hour of television on BBC One on Saturday, Sunday mornings, and half an hour God bar every, you know, which was going out on Wednesday on BBC Two. So you know, three network shows, and four of us doing it. And the support we used to get was, I mean, we'd get the studio, studio beat every week. We'd that was the one that Midlands today used to go into. So we had to be out at 330 Every day, every time. And we'd record each magazine on a weekly strike, and then edit it on, I think we used to record it on Fridays, we used to record it to be as current as possible, then we'd go straight into the Edit, and then send it off for transmission on Sunday. God bar, we used to get the studio once every three or four weeks, and stockpile them. And same with the music. once every six weeks or so we'd get we'd get a big studio Studio A where we could record the big music, things that everybody numbers that people are still talking about, because I think we've managed to get some of the major major artists from Bollywood in those India and Pakistan as well. In those days. I think we, you'd be surprised to learn that our cash budget for Asian magazine, cash budget for a weekly programme was just over 1000 pound. And our cash budget for Godbout was about three or 400 pounds. So what we used to do was to save the money, and then go off and do these documentaries. And
Speaker 1 17:52
I suppose one of my question about the support was, I think whilst there is support at the top for making these kinds of programmes, it feels that you were having to be quite creative, because that support probably wasn't being matched in terms of funding and support in that way.
Speaker 2 18:12
It wasn't being matched in terms of funding, but the whole, we were this, the crews and, you know, the teams, the Film Unit, for example of the studio, the VTX really, really did look upon us as a kid. They, you know, they were very proud of what we did, and what we managed and what we were trying to do. And so they'd always go the extra length to help us, you
Speaker 1 18:37
learned a lot on the job. What kind of skills did you develop? And was there any kind of programming that you specifically really enjoyed doing?
Speaker 2 18:49
I think when I started, I was 21. And I think actually, I had my first gut bar, as a producer go out when I was 21 in six months or something, I think and I would like to suggest that I'm still the youngest creditor producer on network BBC. But then with that came this thing about me at that age with all so many, so many people who were much, much more experience. I mean, a lot of my colleagues were sort of ending their career at a point where I was beginning it. So for me, it was a lot more harder. I had to work, not hard work, so much harder to be accepted. I remember there was one particular production assistant, who just treated me like a brat. And, you know, I hated working with her. But then it became a it became a challenge to win her over. And by the end, I would not want to work with anybody but her. I think what she made me do was to understand what professionalism was all about. And you know, made me and yeah, we Do we do interesting things like, we'd do the whole programme as live now with playing in the films playing in the BTS playing every. And just think of the challenge of that when you're the only person in the gallery who can actually understand the language. Then we do music and we, you know, bar count, which was unheard of. I must tell you, there was one particular pa that had started. So this peer, I'm referring to myself, gave her a tape of Ravi Shankar and said, We're recording him this week, can you please break this down? Well, it was only a little bit later that we sort of felt sorry for her and told her that was a joke and that Indian music does obviously has no boss.
Speaker 1 20:53
And talking about languages Tell me a little bit more about the different languages. In the programme, we
Speaker 2 20:57
used an amalgam of Urdu and Hindi, called Hindustani. We were sort of down the middle that both the people from Pakistan, and the people from India could both understand what we are, but then we were beginning to do a lot more English as well. So the languages were Hindustani, and, and
Speaker 1 21:26
English. And obviously, sometimes you would have to speak in the language of your guests in order to do interviews, which, did you ever kind of mean, you are the presenters venture into Punjabi, Gujarati or Bengali?
Speaker 2 21:42
In the years that I was there, I don't really recall doing anything in any other language Hindustani or English? No, I don't think we did. Okay.
Speaker 1 21:52
So you've told me a little bit more about the people working on the production. So not all of them spoke any of the Asian languages. So how did that work, in terms of them understanding what was going on on set.
Speaker 2 22:06
It just put a lot more pressure on the director. I mean, when, where, what we, what we do was to just in the script, put introduction to this cameras as directed, or interview cameras, as Director of one plus one conferences directed. So what you have to do was to just be the eyes and ears for everybody around you. So when you're directing a gallery, not only are you having to keep everything that you as a normal studio director have to keep in mind, you're also having to keep in mind the fact that they don't understand everybody else, nobody else in the in that gallery, is going to understand what you're what's going on. So you need to preempt. So there used to be this continuous dialogue. Guys, this is what he's talking about. I think he's about to stop now. Oh, he's about to ask a question stand by camera. So not only are you cameras, you're actually at the same time keeping everybody informed about what's going on. And then in terms of when Jane and I started doing, for example, a live as live, what we would do was to I'd write it all out in Roman. And similarly with the music, I'd make sure I was writing it out in Roman, and that we could then do it the normal
Unknown Speaker 23:30
way. Brilliant with the extra extra work.
Speaker 2 23:33
Oh, got extra work. I've got Tokyo. And so you
Speaker 1 23:36
made your programme for the wider Asian community. What kind of conscious decisions did you make to have fair representation of the different countries, the different religions and the different cultures? Did you try to make sure that everyone was represented? Or 100%? And how did that work in?
Speaker 2 23:57
Well, it would it would it would work in the sense that we'd make sure that our mix of presenters were Indian, Pakistani, they were you know that if we'd had somebody from India, a couple of months, a couple of weeks, then we'd make sure that it would be then in terms of the music we chose, if we'd had Indian music, we'd make sure that we'd have a Pakistani to even in the guests, we do that. So yes, there was a conscious decision to make sure that the programming was balanced and that we were not ever accused of being partisan to one or the other.
Speaker 1 24:33
And I think that's really fast growing up, just personally, that's where I came across artists from different countries such as Nora Jaha. And and let them Mangeshkar Asha Bosley and Runa Laila, so people from across Pakistan, Bangladesh and India.
Speaker 2 24:48
You see what we do when we were planning as producers when we were planning our show, we'd look at everything about what had gone in the previous three, four weeks or what was planned, and then we'd plan our programme. accordingly. And you asked me what sort of programmes Did I enjoy doing? I loved anything that put me into a studio. And I could, I could direct I loved studio direction. But then on the other hand, what I also enjoyed was going out and doing the longer form documentaries. And I was lucky enough to do two or three of them. While I was at the Asian programmes unit, there was one about severe for example, who was the first Muslim bond, well, Pakistani Bond girl and a model and so we did a half an hour about her. Then it was Nikki cartrack, who was the first again Karachi girl for who was a ballerina with the Royal Sadler's royal, sad as well. So we did a documentary about her. And I also remember doing a long programme about Ravi Shankar. So, yeah,
Speaker 1 25:55
yeah. Where did these programmes go out? Population magazine specials or separate programmes,
Speaker 2 26:00
they the severe and the Nicki cataract programmes went out on the Sunday morning slot that we had, the Ravi Shankar was picked up and it was went out as a special on BBC Two One evening. Great.
Speaker 1 26:18
So, during your time there, a lot of the production team were Asian males, and a lot of the production assistants tended to be female and white. But when do you think that step change happened when more Asian women started working in the media?
Speaker 2 26:35
Okay, we used to, for sure, we used to have women come and present. We had them presenting this Sunday morning programme, make yourself at home, and we had them presenting, also presenting, obviously garbage. So it's not as if we weren't sort of, you know, we didn't have Asian women there. I think in terms of Asian women coming and becoming full time, I think that sort of happened around about the time, we transitioned from a magazine into network ease. It was a Narendra Murad made a conscious decision to to have the team balanced. And I think that's when it really started. And of course, you know, taking one step back, London Weekend Television when it was during Eastern I also had a lot of, well, a few Asian women. So I think it was towards the latter part of my time at the BBC that that quantum shift was happening
Speaker 1 27:37
in India, I think there's a specific reason for that. Were there strategies to diversify the workforce, or were those Asian programming programmes becoming more popular, and so therefore, people could see themselves having a chance to work in that those spaces?
Speaker 2 27:53
I think that I think it was this thing about around about that time was when Asian parents were, well, I think young people getting the guts to sort of stand up and say, Look, this is what we want to do, and following their dreams a lot more than being stuck in what their parents wanted them to do. I mean, you know, I think, I think growing up, I would suggest that, you know, second generation, my generation was still there was still an issue of women and girls going and doing what they wanted to do anyway, be it any profession, even going to university outside. So I think there was this sort of societal shift anyway, which was sort of happening in the 80s, which facilitated more Asian women coming into the workplace, and thus also into broadcasting.
Speaker 1 28:47
Do you think they were more role models as well? Because I don't know. You talked a little bit about because of your passion, wanting to work in drama, or then producing and directing. So who were your role models? When before you started working in TV? And do you think that you became a role model? Or that there were more role models for people to see?
Speaker 2 29:09
Yeah, I think I think it's always the case, isn't it? I mean, when you can see your Oh, I mean, look, I remember them. And I'm sure you do that. Whenever we used to see an Asian face, brown face on television, we just run down and sit down, watch it. I mean, irrespective. I mean, I remember there was a series called gangsters, or when there was Asian faces on EastEnders, or, you know, it was even even you know, Mondrian language or whatever. It ain't half hot, you know, all of these projects or programmes. I mean, they were they were all people who were sort of, you know, opening these doors and sort of making making the profession a lot more acceptable. I know, for example, that I have, even today, Miss Marvel, which is the first Muslim superhero. I know from looking at social media and Did you know about how that particular programme has become a landmark in having a brown Muslim superhero? And how much difference that's made to people? And how much of a role model those? So yes, you know, there were a hell of a lot of role models around
Speaker 1 30:18
really important. Yeah. And that that representation? So awesome. How would you define or describe the remit of the agent programmes unit in the 1980s? That's,
Speaker 2 30:29
that's a very difficult question to answer, actually.
Speaker 1 30:33
Because you've kind of alluded to it a little bit, but I think you made that step change from the program's of Yeah, okay, up now, you got some idea. And as in the game, even changing to Asian magazine, and then moving on tonight? Yeah.
Speaker 2 30:45
Okay. I think what we what I think what the programmes, the remit for each magazine, was to start shifting towards looking at issues and discussing issues, as opposed to being more instructive, where, you know, I think we've all seen the sort of clips about from appname, custom Jaya about, you know, going and switching a light on or, you know, when, or how to apply for, you know, issues of nationality or issues of social security and health and things like that. I think, you know, the first thing was, the first batch of programmes in the immigrants unit was exactly that, to sort of settle them into the country. Because look, these people were coming from communities and environments that were totally different from, by the time we got there, it was about it was about looking at the issues that affected the community, or reflecting what was going on them the community. So we'd go and, you know, interview people who were doing a, doing a Hindu temple in Bristol, for example, or turning the church into a temple or something like that, or, you know, we were, so it was more about what was going on in the community, as opposed to doing programming that was settling them. But then we would look at any sort of legislation or anything that would impact the community and to explain it to them. So yes, we would talk about the budget and explain how that affected them. Yes, we would talk about, you know, immigration law, or how to how that would affect them. Because I distinctly remember, during my period there, that was when fiance, the role of a fiancee is changed. And there was a lot of letters we got about, look, how does that affect us other factors? So we did a lot of programmes about that. So yes, it was about informing the community about what was going on in the community, and keeping and looking at the issues that affected them.
Speaker 1 33:00
Just as you were mentioning that that's the first thing that came to my head about the immigration as the policies change. People were always thinking about how do I call my relatives over or people getting married? And how you calling your fiance's over from India? And I think so in a way that served the complete BBC within policy of inform, educate and entertain. So you did the information bit, you did the education bit. And then the entertainment, of course,
Speaker 2 33:26
I mean, we've all we've we were obviously public service broadcasting at its best,
Speaker 1 33:31
and what reach to the programmes have? Well, the research
Speaker 2 33:35
that we did was showing that at least at 85% of the population was watching regularly at that time, and then we had, of course, 90 plus percent brand recognition. I mean, everybody had heard of us is that 85%
Speaker 1 33:55
of the population or 85% of the Asian population, okay. Otherwise we'd be through I can't see I can't see Bob all the other families. But I again, when you said that when you saw Brown versus on TV, and everyone rushed out, that's completely my experience. One of the last projects I worked on at the BBC before I left was 40 years of Asian programming and we had possibly the best concept of artists that are no longer with us. Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan Nerja Ha, Lata Mangeshkar manners, Mathewson, all these people, in one concept, showcasing the great work of all the artists that came to Pebble mill. A lot of those directed Yeah, well. It was it was a nostalgic view back on all that stuff, which is amazing. So we talked about the kind of what reach the audible programmes had. How did you understand the audience? Do you do any kind of audience research? Did you find out more about as the audiences were changing map Perhaps Yeah,
Speaker 2 35:00
I mean, the one the one thing was that we did have an advisory board, which was members of the community, community leaders, and they used to meet pretty regularly and tell us what we were doing and what we weren't what we were doing right and what we were doing wrong. I mean, you know, quantitative and qualitative research, as it exists now didn't really exist in those days. So we used to heavily depend on advisory board, to give us a feeling of what was working and what wasn't working. And they were our sort of connection with the community. But then, of course, we were we were working every week within the community. I mean, we'd be going out meeting people. There was when I used to tell people I was working in the Asian programmes unit, they would say, Yeah, okay, so you do the Sunday morning programme, what do you do for the rest of the week, and half of the Birmingham community was convinced I was running a kebab shop on local road.
Speaker 1 36:09
People have never really understood production, and how long it takes to put something together. So how was the success or impact of a programme measured?
Speaker 2 36:19
I think we measured it by the feedback that we got the letters and the phone calls, I think, you know, there wasn't anything beyond that. It was just really, you know, that was the best way of doing it. And you know, that the Asian community is pretty vocal, especially when they don't like anything. And we'd have mail bags full of progress of, you know, letters once we did something wrong. Okay. So I particularly remember for example, one particular incident that my colleague Bish had made a film about a Sikh hairdresser. And he didn't think twice about it and never die. But the he put it into the Radio Times and then BBC One trailed it at the end of the programme, and then all hell break loose, broke loose. Sikhs were up in arms that they were going to burn pebble melotel. God knows what. But yeah, they're pretty people can be pretty vocal when they don't, when they
Speaker 1 37:22
seek hairdresser who was cutting other people's hair, or had
Speaker 2 37:27
the very, the very idea of a seat cutting hair was this was one of the top stylists in, in the country, actually. And I think they just unfortunately, what Bush had done was to mention seek hairdresser. He shouldn't have done that what you should be said it was just Asian hairdresser. We would have got away with it. But the fact that he sort of mentioned seek hairdresser I think that sort of sort of rolled into something I shouldn't have done. Okay.
Unknown Speaker 38:02
So what content are you the most proud of?
Speaker 2 38:06
I think, yeah. I think anything we ever did with Bollywood stars was something that is best remembered. I, I actually recorded an interview with Rebecca. And we did it a very last minute because she had literally flown in from America where she was doing tours, we go into the studio in London, no set nothing, just two chairs, curriculum. Her, and we did it. And she was amazing. And I think she ended up in the she had just broken up with me Dhaba something. And she ended up at the end singing this melody has some muscle and about loss and missing somebody. And I think that has become an iconic moment. And I think that the funny thing is that I in the process of digitising, I uploaded it on to YouTube for a few friends to see. And it was a private link. And they said no make this public. And I think I did I think it's Oh, two to 3 million views already. So
Speaker 1 39:15
I've seen that on YouTube. And I remember seeing it going out. Yeah, I think it was a time when actually being a star was quite exclusive. You didn't have access to stars. As much as you didn't know you could remember you could write off in startups with their addresses and get a signed poster back. And I think I remember growing up seeing Amitabh and Jaya they did that. Yes, yes. on screen together and a show squire. It was quite a coup to have so I think you know, really big moments and big big names that you managed to get into. Well, I
Speaker 2 39:51
just assumed the the other one that I do recall was, I mean, I did Imran Khan's first BBC Interview. You know, I also did mera CL for Rosa in those days her first interview I you know this load of these things that sort of stand up there there I mentioned it Salman Rushdie you know when he did a shame so yeah, there's a load of programmes there that I feel quite rubbish younger Of course. I mean I did a full 50 minute programme with him that went out and BBC BBC One, the first Asian programme that came from our unit that actually got another slot.
Speaker 1 40:38
And I also remember Nadia Hussain being interviewed, she was really early in her career so she was a bit shell shocked being interviewed. And
Speaker 2 40:44
the funny thing is that on the way here, I was speaking to her brother so
Speaker 1 40:49
amazing. So what seem How did the remit of the agent programmes unit change? After network EES came along?
Speaker 2 40:58
I think that can be summed up very, very simply by saying that what we were doing at the Asian programmes unit was making programmes for Asians and what network EES was remit was to make programmes about Asians, I think it's as simple as that.
Unknown Speaker 41:16
So aside from Asian programmes, what else did you work on at the BBC?
Speaker 2 41:21
I, I did a bit of work for permanent one. I then went on and did a year at the farming programme, which was the sunday sunday lunchtime show that went out and thoroughly enjoyed that and sort of dabbled a little bit in, in the drama as well.
Unknown Speaker 41:46
But what drama Did you know,
Speaker 2 41:48
what had happened was that we, what I worked on, was, I came up this idea that we should do a project about Zia and Bhutto, because the zero Bucha story for me was a tragedy of Shakespearean proportions. So I talked to the Head of Drama in those days Robin mutually and they got they got Tariq Ali in to write the script, which became the Leopard and the fox. I sort of moved on and left but then I believe he got involved in a lot of legal hassles and didn't end up happening, but it was a stunning script. And then I did a couple of Golden Oldies as well. The Golden Oldies was a very interesting concept where bright, young directors, and for some reason I was deemed to be one of those were invited to make videos for songs that never had videos made for them, which was an interesting concept. The problem was that we weren't allowed to have the original artist. And we had to do it in 1000 pound cash. That was it. So yeah, those were the constraints, but it was good fun.
Unknown Speaker 43:14
Do you remember any other tracks that you do? Yeah, I
Speaker 2 43:16
do. I did nights in white satin, and seasons.
Speaker 1 43:20
Wow. Amazing. Great concept. I'd like to see this.
Speaker 2 43:24
It's it's yeah, it was a very, very good idea. I in fact, David Wayne dropped me a miss. Drop me a message after season in the sun and said, Look, I was really dreading this song, because it's a great personal connection for something personal that happened in my life. And I thought you were going to ruin it. But I loved what you did.
Speaker 1 43:49
Well, it's a personal favourite of mine. So we'll sing you left the BBC in 1988. To work on a new project, you set up the satellite TV station, TV, Asia, tell us a little bit more about how that came about and what its remit was and how successful that was.
Speaker 2 44:06
When I left the BBC, I really thought that there was a need still a need for language programming. And my justification for that was the way that video cassettes and videotapes and video films had been taken up within our community. I mean, people were spending, you know, 1015 pounds a week renting these videos. And research showed that about 90 odd percent, 90 plus percent Africa the exact data of Asians were spending five or more pounds a week renting these videos. So I thought now that the BBC wasn't doing it. There was a distinct need for not only the entertainment side, but also other programming in the language. So I set about working on TV he had absolutely no idea how to about it, I must tell you one story that I actually wrote a couple of pages. I said, Hey, you know, I think we can get 100,000 subscribers, paying 10 pounds a month, that's a million quid a month, blah, blah, blah, it's going to cost us this much and two pages and went to see my bank manager and said, Hey, I've got this fabulous idea. Can I have 5 million quid? And he sort of looked at me and said, you know, but you need a business plan. And I said, Well, what's one of them? Here it is, I'm showing you, you know, there's two pages, it's written out it shows. So I had a year, year and a half to learn what a business plan is. My ultimate business plan ended up being about two 300 pages, with fingers running to about 70 pages with variations and gone as what? And so that was the first thing I had to learn very quickly, then, of course, the technical side. I mean, how does a satellite work? How do you make money on it? How how's the encryption work all of this. And so, again, another steep learning curve. Then there was the thing about this whole thing about at that point, nobody knew what a satellite was, I mean, sky had come out. And the they had 16 channel analogue channels on that. And the of those only five or six were English, because the rest were German. But then how do you get that? How do you sell that concept into a community? So there was all this sort of marketing, I had to work out, I had to work on the business side, I had to work out the technical side. And then, you know, we finally finally managed to be SB, to give us four hours a day on their programming. And the day I'm about to sign the contract. They they fold, Sky, take them over, to start again. So it was a it was quite a torturous journey. But then we did it. We got to be a show up on there. And I was proven to be right, in the sense that we did get 100 110,000 subscribers paying 10 pound a month for that.
Speaker 1 47:18
So when you went on, I'm trying to kind of vaguely remember TV Asia, I think I can see the logo in my head. square logo? No, it
Speaker 2 47:27
was the sort of a sort of diamond with a with a sun in it, which would rise above. When I say
Speaker 1 47:35
square, I meant square. Diamond. Yes. So who were your key presenters on TV, Asia? And how do people find out about the channel?
Speaker 2 47:44
There was a very heavy marketing campaign. That was, first of all, I mean, I must say we didn't go out immediately on. We didn't go out immediately on, on satellite. We started on cable. So we had, we had three cable stations, we had Windsor, we had Leicester, we had Coventry. And the guys who were funding felt that one of the key USPS would be a daily news programme, a daily news programme, there was we couldn't transmit live. So we had to record the tapes, duplicate them, and that every single night used to have to deliver them. So that was that was the one thing I can tell you. The other thing was that we, when we set up this when we were building the studio, I'd gone to these people who were experts, they said don't build a studio on the flight path, don't have it or industrial estate, don't have it on a near a railway line. Okay. And of course, they CDs get a cheap deal. And that's where we ended up right on a northall estate. I remember at night, because again, we didn't have footage to be able to contain we had to do the news in one go. And of course, at that point a train would go by. And I'd have to retake the whole thing. Right. So so there's a lot of stories I can I can tell you that time. But look, the thing was it was word of mouth. And we we did then get a lot of people are gonna be tab involved. And we had a huge launch at the NSC with meet ARB. And we then we also did things like we were the only place for example where you could get where you can get the South Africa and India test match for the first time. So those were the sorts of we made sure that the programming was unique. And I think you know, overnight with the with the South Africa Indian match, I think overnight, we gained about 40,000 subscribers. So I think it was that was it and I think it was very much word of mouth.
Unknown Speaker 49:56
You're advertising on TV Asia as well.
Unknown Speaker 49:58
Sorry. Yes, we
Speaker 1 49:59
did. I'm just trying to work out where yes with the famous Rubicon advert was actually Asia. And so it was definitely one of your presenters. Who was
Speaker 2 50:07
one of our presenters, Teresa subawards. Right. Robbie, I forget his name, but a load of them came over from sunrise. Oh, yeah. So
Speaker 1 50:18
that's quite iconic into especially with Rubicon. I think everybody remembers the Rubicon advert. And they've Sagaris yeah, that's, that's very iconic. So after you successfully launched TV, Asia, how did your career progressed from there, part of the
Speaker 2 50:32
TV show was actually owned by the guys who did the second channel in Pakistan who and the second channel, Pakistan. And they asked me to go and work in Pakistan for a while as well. So I went and looked after programming on the on the second channel in Pakistan. Then while I was gone, Z took over the channel. And they didn't believe that there was any real need for local programming. What they wanted to do was to just bring their programming and just replay it here. And also, they were sort of cutting back on the Pakistani programming as well. So we sort of parted ways. And at that time, I went into consultancy, and I joined a NGO in German in Denmark, the Baltic Media Centre. And one of the things I worked with them on was, and actually ended up specialising in was reconstruction, immediate post war. What that meant was that wherever there'd been a conflict, there's always a breakdown of communication or a need of communication. And what we do was to help get programming back on a bit physically building studios, and radio stations or TV, or just helping get the programming together. And I ended up working in Bosnia, Kosovo, Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria. I mean, you know, you name it over the past few years, wherever there's been a real conflict. You can bet I'd been there. So tell
Speaker 1 52:14
me a little bit more about your work in these former conflict sounds and the kind of work that you did?
Speaker 2 52:19
Well, I think one of the things that the one of the things that I'm really proud of is my work in Afghanistan. I went in six weeks after the fall of the Taliban. And we did a project called good one on one Assam, which was basically public service broadcasting, I mean, but it was to give basic information to the Afghan people. And we did it as a breakfast show, and managed to convince the ministry to give us time on their local, their sort of national radio station to do that. And I, when I met Chris I, several years later, he credited us as having saved 10s of 1000s of lives, because of the information we gave. I mean, you know, information about, obviously, about curfews information about where hospitals are information about medicine, drops, food, all of that stuff, you know, that you might feel even weather I've been here we were the first to do weather. But that would. But then when the country's president turns around and says, credits you for having saved 10s of 1000s of lives, I think that's it, that tells you what you've done.
Speaker 1 53:30
That's amazing. Well done. So what was the legacy and lasting impact of the work that you did in Afghanistan?
Speaker 2 53:40
I think history has undone the legacy from that. I would like to I would like to have said that we were we laid the foundation for free independent media. In fact, I wrote the broadcast guidelines for Radio Television are understand. But, you know, history seems to have undone all of
Speaker 1 54:01
that. So we're seeing what are you the most proudest of in your career?
Speaker 2 54:06
The proudest moment of my career is yet to come. My I didn't interview about three weeks, four weeks ago for a podcast in the US. And they asked me the question, well, you're approaching 40 years now. are you slowing down? And my answer was, hell no. I've just done my apprenticeship. This is where it gets real.
Speaker 1 54:34
Good answer. So how would you sum up your career and what's next on the horizon?
Speaker 2 54:43
It's it's definitely not the career path I had in mind when I entered Peppermill. For sure, I could never have seen that my my career would have taken me to all the This amazing places would have given me the opportunity to not just watch history unfold on television, but to be part of history. I mean, I am immensely grateful for that. And for sure, it's not the path that I set out on. So it's very difficult to categorise. Right. However, where I go from here is that I think that I'm getting back into production. I think that there is a this huge noise everywhere about diversity. Inclusivity, we talked about it several times in this interview. I think it's wanting to talk about it. I think what, what I feel is that I'm not going to step on any soapbox and shout, I just gotta get my head down and do it. Because honestly, unless we tell our own stories, nobody else is going to do for us. So that's what I'm doing. I have a couple of projects that are beginning to come to fruition. It's been a long, hard slog, but I think we're almost there. I think the right people are beginning to listen. And I think the right doors are beginning to open. But, you know, I hope as with previous things in my career, if I can sort of prise open a door, I just hope there's others behind me who will bash it down.
Speaker 1 56:31
Fantastic answer. Last question, what words of advice would you give to young British Asians who want to get into the media industries today?
Speaker 2 56:41
You know, I think there is the My My advice would be that, you know, okay, let me let me tell you, let me tell you a small story. And this will sum it up for you. My, my friend, John Murray, who I mentioned earlier, didn't actually end up acting either, even though he was the best I ever saw was the best tree. He was the best tree. Exactly. So he, he ended up actually working with me at TVA show, and then went on to work at sky. And he rang me about six weeks ago, to say, Listen, I've got a niece who is at the Birmingham Conservatory, and studying drama, can you talk her out of it? Um, so she rang me, and we had a conversation. And I said, that's the last thing I did. I said, Look, you've got to do it. If this is what you believe, you've got to do it. You know, you don't want to get to my age, and then look back and say, What if I'd done it? You don't have any regrets at this age, you can try and fail that separate, but don't never do it, and always follow your dreams. And that's what the advice I'd give to young people as well. Is that just give it a try. You know, the barriers to entry are so much lower now. I mean, in my day, you'd have to have to do it on film, would you believe or, you know, two inch and one inch, you know, hundreds of 1000s of pounds worth of equipment. Now, a phone in your pocket? So look, it's again, it's a lesson that I I, when I use your consultancies around the world. Everybody uses it, but it's too easy for you. Because you used to have BBC budgets. A we didn't have BBC buckets, okay. 1000 quid a week was not a budget, alright. And it's not about the budget. It's about what's up there. It's about the idea. So what's stopping anybody? Come on, you've got, you know, it's so much easier to get into the media now.
Unknown Speaker 58:47
Brilliant. Thank you so much. Oh, one other bit of advice.
Speaker 2 58:53
My, there are two there are two bits of advice that Ashok Rampell gave me on my first day at the BBC. The one was that you can either get your nose like this, or you can go like this, okay? Meaning that it's where you want to get to in the end, that matters, not how you get there. And the other bit of advice, which I've always always heard is when you get to a certain age, never wear stripy shirts.
Unknown Speaker 59:21
Was there any reasoning to that?
Speaker 2 59:22
Yeah, because what happens is, as you can see, they, they they bunch up like this and the lines never are straight. Okay. Okay, thank you, Dominic.
Speaker 1 59:34
Thank you, thank you for your wisdom, and all of your career highlights. Thank you so much.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
