Muriel Cole

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Speaker 1  0:03  
This interview is the copyright of the ACTT history project. It's being recorded on the fifth of april 1988 in the executive room at 111 Water Street. The subject is Muriel Cowell, and the interviewer is said, co no relation, right?

Unknown Speaker  0:23  
Here we go, established our lack of

Unknown Speaker  0:27  
connection. Rather important.

Speaker 2  0:30  
Good. Go ahead and tell us you know about yourself in personal details, when you when and where you were,

Speaker 3  0:35  
right? I first drew breath just before the outbreak of World War One in June 1914, which means that in two months time, I shall be 74 the place this auspicious event occurred was in a small terrace suburban house in Willesden. At the bottom of our garden, I can remember a quiet park now gone, and marvelous sunsets. I had a very happy childhood, blighted by the fact my mother was a mild, hard pichonry act. My father was an architect. My he dearly loved my mother and was a marvelous father. My schooling, to put it mildly, was poor. After attending a little locally primary school, I went off to a secondary school the bronzebury and Kilburn high a depressing place where, because of several bouts of illness, including having my appendix out at 12 and enduring every known childage illness, I made poor progress and disliked all the teachers, except for the English literature teacher, who was way ahead of her time, I insisted on proceeding as soon as possible to Pittman's Business College, turning down my father's offer to send and pay for me to go to university. That was a bad mistake on my part. However, I loved business study until my astonishment brought off with several first and such verds subject as English, type, writing, shorthand, commerce, etc. In June 1931 I got my first job. Left that after a year to take up a job in the West End.

Unknown Speaker  2:13  
Can you remember the date of that raspy

Speaker 3  2:17  
when I left to go and get a job in the West End? Well, it was a year later, so that would be 1932 and then four years later, my parents moved to Emerick Park, and on the morning, on my way to the old Metropolitan line, I became aware there was a film studio, And I thought, Oh, I'd like to work at films studio, and I'd love to work locally. So I wrote for a job. Got one a secretariat awareness, got side of ox British. After three months, they closed because the Quota Act was altered, and at that time I was being paid the princes arm of two pound 10 a week. I went back to them in the May of 39 at two pounds 10 per week, and stayed there as secretary to the publicity director for three years and again, Fox British lives, but they did get me across to Pinewood to work with Hugh Alexander, who would publicity for 20th Century Fox, I enjoyed that enormously. But again, that ceased because 20th has stopped production. But through Fox, British, I heard I was introduced to Ernie Marlowe of Ealing studios, who employed me as his secretary, but failed to let me know that I also had to work for Colin Leslie, who was production supervisor and for the production unit for darling Freddie James, however, and I can remember my first day at Ealing, you know that the garden there was such a feature of the place being spring was in full bloom at all the trees etc, down The road to the studios and the canteen and I there. What I did find, although I enjoyed my work, I did find the fact that I had to do the call sheet very trying, because they were out on location with come on George. Naturally, they didn't get back till about eight o'clock at night, because it was double. Summertime. And of course, I couldn't have the call sheet till they'd worked it out once they'd got back. So I was frequently there till about the half past eight or nine at night. And let us not forget that then there was no overtime, no meal allowed. That was a

Unknown Speaker  5:17  
form big film, wasn't it? Come on,

Speaker 3  5:18  
that's right, yes. And then on one morning, I had a spate of working a bit late because of the location. Course, I clocked in at 910 instead of nine o'clock, whereupon I was carpeted by the Secretary of the company for being late, and I was very shy little creature in those days, I never explained why. I was a bit late, but luckily, Colin Leslie noticed I was a bit teary when I got back to the office, he demanded the reason, and then went off and saw Leslie Baker and never again. And explained why I was late, as I was working so late, he felt I had a little justification for being timid as late and I was never challenged again. Now, of course, that was in 39 in September, the war broke out, and a sort of tremor, rather went through the studio. It was to what would happen. But very soon they started to do a ministry of information, shorts, Army shorts. And during 1940 they all as well as these various moi shorts, they also made five feature films, which were convoy, saloon, bar sailors, three spare copper and think it was turned out nice again,

Unknown Speaker  7:01  
some of those were forms.

Speaker 3  7:03  
One was a form be it turned out nice. Again, was a formula, spare a copper. I can't remember salud bar had Gordon Harker in it. God bless him. And say, Yes. Three, want to know who was on that. That's right. I He

Speaker 2  7:23  
get on with Tommy?

Speaker 3  7:26  
I didn't to begin with, of course, I was, you know, sort of bit shy, but I found that if I went back at him, I was all right. Can't say he was my favorite man, but it was his first film. I think he was nervous and rather full of himself, and I was about the person of the lowest degree that came in touch with him at that time. However, by 1941 some of the best of the British, as it were, on the staff were disappearing, dear Freddie James, when Colin had gone, oh, several of the boys whose names now I can't remember, but and I began to feel, Oh, I think I was go and do my bit. So I discussed it with my parents, who said, Well, dear, it's up to you. And I discussed it with Winifred Slater, because we always sat together for lunch and Eileen Farrell, they bought but they thought I was mad. Explain who Winifred was. Winifred was secretary to mcbulkin, and Eileen Fauci was Secretariat of managing director Reggie Baker, and then one day, I suddenly got a summons up to Mick, as he was in those days Balkans office, and he knew me fairly well because dear Winifred suffered With dreadful migraines, and I frequently covered for her because she wanted somebody she could trust who wasn't after her job. And I certainly wasn't. And I can't remember, there was somebody else standing in the office with Sir, Michael or Mike, and he said, Now, what's all this about? You want to do your bit. You've got to do your bit by staying here and ensuring that jobs are here for the boys when they came back. And in that connection, we're going to make you an assistant director. Well, of course, I didn't think about joining you up anymore. I did my bit merrily as an assistant director.

Unknown Speaker  9:42  
Had you done continuity on the floor?

Speaker 3  9:45  
No, I went from a commercial office in London straight into being a secretary working forum worked out to about two, three years in publicity. So true. Weight into Ealing as secretary, not even production secretary, secretary to Ernie Mario Colin and anybody else who hadn't got a secretary. That shaped me. So I started on ships with wings, which was, you know, all about the Vici tudes of life aboard an aircraft carrier as one of our more ambitious productions and absolutely splendid in the matter of model work. And it's Todd Lesley, banks, John Clements and Jane Baxter. But who directed that? I tried it wasn't awkward question,

Unknown Speaker  10:43  
fantastic. No, I do think it

Speaker 3  10:47  
was, I'm sorry I forget, of course, that those are the things that are, what are we looking for? The captive ships with wings, ships with wings. Here we are ships with wings. Sergei Noel band off, Sergey Noel

Unknown Speaker  11:08  
band off, yes, of course.

Speaker 3  11:12  
And from there on, no, no, I seem to be involved in nearly everything that we did,

Speaker 3  11:29  
I've lost myself. I've absolutely lost myself. Where am I?

Speaker 2  11:34  
That's right, we're rolling. You all have to ask, okay, well now I'll go on then with you were saying about all the after ships with wings, after

Speaker 3  11:44  
ships with wings, which I've now proceeded happily to lose. There was another comedy with little hair, black sheep of white whore, the big blockade, which was one of really an moi type of film, which was direct, that was directed by Charles, then next of kin by thorough Dickinson. That was a very splendid, secretive, impressing

Speaker 2  12:16  
lips. Yes, I remember that. Yes. What did you remember mainly about that. Did you have any special memory about next to a kid?

Speaker 3  12:24  
No, because quite a lot of it was shot away on location, and I was always the the the Assistant Director in the Office, the goose steps out, followed with, I think that was Johnny mills and will hay. And then we went off into something called fine fix and strike, which was another army or services film. Went the day well. Now that was

Speaker 2  12:59  
by cavid camp. County. Yes, that's right, I remember that because I edited it. Ah, I

Speaker 3  13:05  
don't remember. Was that the strange that wasn't the one where they were in church?

Speaker 2  13:11  
Yes, it was the recent ideas put up by Graham Greene about some a small number of troops arriving, British troops in this small village and various reasons. And it turns out gradually that, in fact, they are Germans in disguise. And then the whole thing is, the whole thing erupts into violence between the Home Guard and these phony British soldiers. Yes, Lesley banks. Leslie Banks, marvelous performance as the the what you call him, the traitor? Yes, I gave you know that no a Quisling, yes, that was

Speaker 3  13:51  
fifth columnist, yeah. And I don't remember a thing about the mighty Penny, except I enjoyed working with Penny Costas. Patty Costa. It was an moi thing, but they never took it up, and the bells go down. Now that was the second Tommy trainer, and by then I'd got to rather like him, and we had lots. I've even got a photograph of myself at home, taken with Tommy trender,

Unknown Speaker  14:27  
wasn't he? Yes,

Speaker 3  14:31  
and something I don't remember a thing about, called Meet Mr. Joe, an undercover nine men. Lovely film that was shot in Wales on some of the Sands there, and Greek testament that I don't remember very much about Noel. Now on to 1943, And we, we seem to be extremely busy there with Mo, mainly moi films. And then we did halfway house, oh yes, Basil didn't that right with Dennis Johns, and they went away at Cornwall. No Devon, Devon, or was it Somerset? There they were. Dearness was just recently married, and there was some Hillier at him, because She shut her husband out on the first night I remember, that was the main story that

Unknown Speaker  15:29  
came back. She managed to do that. She was a nice person. Oh,

Speaker 3  15:35  
lovely, lovely. And then for those in peril with a name that one hasn't, hadn't even then heard for quite some time in 1943 David Farrar, oh yes, yes. And

Speaker 2  15:52  
had been a big name for a while, hadn't we immediately before the war, I think

Speaker 3  15:57  
people thought he was going to be the Gary Cooper of England, because when he would when I worked with him somewhere on some film or other, and we were on location in Oxford, he always marched around with dark glasses on. And being me, I said to him, rather church, David, why haven't got those glasses on? He said, I don't want people to recognize me. I fell about too late because it was nobody to really recognize. And then fiddlers three, another Tommy trender and oh no, by then, I think we had got, oh, there was one picture where there was, we had a lovely old assistant director called Billy Russell, oh yes, he had been a variety artist, and he became an assistant director at Eiling, and he always wore a hat pushed slightly to the back of his head, and he'd got this North Country voice, and He had to deal with the War Office. Well, one day, Billy was out, so I got on the phone and dealt with war office. Well, being me, I was very crispy. What I wanted, and bang, bang, bang, bang. So then, darling, oh, Billy came back after being off for a couple of days, I think, and he had to ring up and ask for something. And the War Office sort of baffled for a little while. They rang Hal Mason and said, we talked to a woman called Muriel Cole. If you want anything out of us, you better put her on the phone in the future, which was very embarrassing, as you can imagine. So Hal had me in and explained. I said, Well, you tell Bill. I'm not telling Bill. Anyway, dear, Bill was not he had a death in the family, and he couldn't take this film, which was about the Norwegian resistance and heavy water, that's right. And we were going on location to Hereford, where there was a Norwegian home. I

Speaker 2  18:05  
remember because I was on that film with our friend, yes, and

Speaker 3  18:09  
I would remember I had to take over from Bill, who was acting as unit manager. Actually

Speaker 2  18:15  
mirror. It was called Return of the Viking, that's right, the heavy water thing was just a Norwegian, French, Norwegian Vikings about that was about the Norwegian services in England.

Speaker 3  18:28  
Ah, yes, because we had, we had this. All I remember was it was a lot of it had to take place in an IRA plan, yes.

Unknown Speaker  18:35  
And

Speaker 3  18:39  
in that time, all the jobs were fairly well defined, except we were also friendly at healing that it really didn't matter. But I finally found myself facing Charles, friend and all the Darling. Think it was Dougie, Slocum and Jeff see you home standing in a line at the station saying you've got to tell us which cars to get into. And I thought, Well, if that's what your managers job comprises, kind of draft however, I read that there was that film, and then we came back and did something rather large and good,

Unknown Speaker  19:31  
which

Speaker 3  19:36  
I have to go off I've lost myself, and that was followed by a wonderful, uplifting period Edwardian piece called champion, Charlie, oh yes, with again dear Cavalcante directing that had Tommy Trinder, Betty Warren and. Of Stanley Holloway and Jane Hilton in it. And the costumes, I remember it so vividly because the costumes were so beautiful, and Betty Marsden sang, and for the first time, you know, looked as though my life might sometime get back to normal. Then darling old Charlie Crichton went off up the canals on painted painted boats, and that had somebody I don't even remember Robert Griffiths, and I do remember dear Jenny Laird. Then we did something called dreaming. I don't think we did that. I think John box boxer came in and did John

Speaker 2  20:48  
Baxter. Baxter, yes, that's right. That wasn't really an evening film.

Speaker 3  20:52  
Then, of course, we went off on, excuse me, location with Johnny Frenchman with the miraculous Francois Jose and we also went down on location to Medici, where we had a lot of tried scenes. And so we had to get all the genuine French Breton fishermen who were parked in Penzance, plus the Belgium fishermen. I can't remember where we got that from. So there was I at the end of the day. It was quite easy when they arrived, as they came off the busses, I handed them all their little paychecks. But when they were being paid off at night, it was all in a field, and I ruled that they must take it in turn to be signed off first, because obviously, with 200 each of belgiums and French, meant one lot would always be late, but on one day, there was a terrible argument as to who was due to be first. And I can remember to this day they started fighting, and I had a marvelous Polish officer as a liaison officer. There wasn't a single language he didn't speak, but he was in uniform, and the poles in those days still had swords, and I can remember him leaping up onto the table and pulling out a sword by then, and that shut everybody up. They really thought he was going to use it. And then another emergency was dear Marcel Poisson bursting in to the ice cream parlor, which was actually my office, and seeing Muelle, what shall we do at the moment? It's got to be in her blue mists. And of course, she was wearing the real Breton costume with those terribly long doors. So I said, Well, darling, she better come into the office and all of you turn your backs and we'll try and catch it. I didn't know what happened to just skate before I had to do it for half. And then we did another cattle can tear. I think it was a careful can tear, and it had a marvelous lot of people directing it

Speaker 2  23:18  
dead. Oh, dead of night, yes, yes. That was Yes. John Croydon and I were the two social producers on that,

Speaker 3  23:29  
a very intense production, something called Here Comes the Sun with Flanagan and Allen. I regret to say I didn't remember that at all. I probably wasn't working on it.

Speaker 2  23:42  
It probably wasn't an evening film. You know, sometimes the studio was let out for so I don't think that was an evening film as such.

Speaker 3  23:51  
Ah. And then pink string and ceiling were with beloved Robert Hamer. And then the end of my assistant director career on the captive heart, because the boys by then, I mean, we're now talking about 1945 and the beginning of 46 the boys were coming back, and they had asked me to become a small part and crowd casting director, because the film artists Association, which was the crowd artist union, was getting stronger, and they had started and inaugurated various conditions of service, but captive heart. I almost remember great clarity, because everybody working on it, who was going to Germany? We were going to shoot in some of the German prison camps, had to wear British uniform all the crew. But I wasn't going to Germany, although I. Had to see them off. So I had to sit in the bottom of this lorry because I was in normal clothes. And as the boys swept through the East End of London, all the kids were cheering. They thought they were going off to do something. And then memorable occasion, when we they they lost some infrared film. The War Office actually lost it. And Sir Michael, summoned me in and said, Go on, Muriel, go and do the your bit. Tell them they got to fly some more out prompter. And I looked to me just I thought, well, you know, I don't think I can do it. But however, I had to go out to the War Office and haunt them up until about 12 o'clock at night, and finally got them to agree that the next day they would include a large supply of infrared film to be flown out. I really felt I'd quite done my bit sitting around hours in the morning, you just refused to go home. I just refused to go home. I was revived with cups of coffee, etc, etc. Then I really came with a bang into my new job, because we were then casting huward cry with all those 1000s of little boys. Now, of course, in those days, there weren't the children schools that there are nowadays. You know, the training schools, the stage schools. I know everybody says we don't want skate stage school children because they are so artificial. But on the other hand, a massive boy is rushing about dressed in the wrong place. It wouldn't have mattered where where they came from. But of course, you couldn't get that number of kids, so I had to tackle all the boys clubs in the East End and schools, and they were marvelous. But the great handicap was not coming from a given number of centers, it meant that each individual little boy at six o'clock at night had to telephone me at healing studios, and because of weather, we didn't we were three days Before we wanted them, and these poor little kids ringing in every night. I mean, sometimes you would get one of the clubs, the one boy would ring in, say for about seven but as we had 200 the phones never stopped ringing. I had three secretaries spread out down the dressing room corridor, and we had long lists of all the boys. And I always remember the first morning I went up to see and I was astonished at how many little boys we'd got, really and truly. Once we got the boys out of the way, and they went on for about, I think about a fortnight. I didn't have a lot more to do, but that was one of the more hair raising things that I had to do. Well, then we

Speaker 2  28:10  
didn't, kind of interrupt that, and you had to improvise the organization of this all yourself. Didn't you precedent for

Speaker 3  28:17  
it? Oh, no, there was no precedent, but it worked. Which was the main thing? The boys were marvelous, and the boys who were cast? Was it Margaret Harper Nelson, or was Margaret Bonner still there? I can't

Unknown Speaker  28:37  
remember which

Speaker 3  28:39  
we had dear Harry Fowler on it, oh yes. And I think his Oh Jack Warner and Alistair sim. I'd forgotten them. Then another gorgeous picture, Nicholas Nickleby, which cavalcamps He did, and again, cheer joy for me, because there are a lot of small parts, you know. And that was in the days before we'd got too economy minded and were starting to cut down on small parts. There were masses and masses of small parts, and of course, they all had to be costumed. Was it Anthony Mendelsohn, or was it Marion Horne? No,

Speaker 2  29:27  
I think, I think that was Tony Mendelsohn, yes.

Speaker 3  29:31  
I mean the costumes and the sets. I mean, I thought the champagne Charlie had been pretty magical, but I think Nick will be was even better then the loves of Joanna Goon, where darling ogogi with us met John,

Unknown Speaker  29:54  
John McCallum, and lovely time was had by all that was who directed that Charlie,

Speaker 2  29:59  
John. Best Friend, yes, and I was the AP on that coach, but you know all about that, yes, no, no, but the people Yes, posterity won't know. What did you have anything particular to say about that film? No,

Speaker 3  30:10  
because it wasn't a difficult one for me to cast. There were very few people other than the principles that was, again, was a principals film, so all I had to do was just fly probably four or five tiny parts. I didn't go on location with them, so it was just the stand ins and the odd one and two. And strangely enough, it is a picture that I still have not seen. Oh, shame never saw it. Saw all the others. Then Frieda with my settling and who else did we have in it?

Unknown Speaker  30:55  
Oh. David Farrar. David Farrar, again,

Speaker 3  30:58  
Glynis Jones, Flora Robson and Albert leavin,

Speaker 2  31:02  
could you say what it was about? Frida Frieda,

Speaker 3  31:08  
you have to remember, dear heart, that I've had 1000s of television plays in between. I can't quite remember. No, it was

Speaker 2  31:18  
about when I remember, if I might just Yes. It was about the first German girl marrying an English Englishman, just immediately after the war. And that was, that was where my settling came in, before she was a Swedish girl, you know, yes.

Speaker 3  31:36  
Degree business, I believe in, in the scenes, yes,

Unknown Speaker  31:40  
yes.

Speaker 3  31:44  
Then it. Then again, we had an East End production. It always rains on Sunday, gooky and John McCallum, very atmospheric. Not a lot for me to do, but I thoroughly enjoyed and that I did see that was who directed that, Robert Homer, ah, yes. And then again, we went into costume with Sarah ban for dead lovers, directed by basil Jordan, and our location was no less a place than Blenheim Palace. That remains very clearly in my mind, because that was when I had a battle with Stuart Granger, who insisted on taking his London stand in down to Blenheim with him. And I said, Well, you know, we can't do it. We haven't got all that amount of accommodation down there. Anyway, in His majestic West, you went off and saw Sir Michael, who rather baffled by the whole thing, said, Well, you know, yes, all right. So with great joy, came back and told me that he was taking his standing with him, and he could join, on my part, his standing after two days fell off

Speaker 2  33:12  
the horse. I was rather pleased you didn't push him, but I

Unknown Speaker  33:16  
couldn't ride myself. Else I might have done more

Unknown Speaker  33:19  
convenient to get someone local. Well,

Speaker 3  33:21  
she was always because a one had to pay so much overtime, one had to pay their all their meals had to be provided, of course, and their accommodation. Well, if on that picture, we had a lot of principal artists who were having stand ins, so the cost would have been considerable. And in addition to having all those bodies, I mean, no fault of theirs, they often had to wait about a bit. So I had the honors job of going round to all the other artists and explaining why Mr. Stuart grendra had got his stand in and they hadn't. But they knew Mr. Grand, so they didn't. They said, We do understand, darling. So that was all right. Claude Robson was all right. On that was she, oh yes, she was never, any bother, never, never. And then in between, the Sala band and Scott of the Antarctic we had Harry watt disappearing for Eureka Stockade to Australia. And I always remember him saying, I wanted to go on that like nobody's business. And I also remember any time coming into me and saying that lovely Canadian accent of his, which I cannot copy, oh, I couldn't take you, except that phony Mayfair accent of yours be dreadful. But I do remember I was the only one that when they came back, I think that was the overlanders. I was the only one who could keep old chips Rafferty in order, typically Australia, and he got very sloshed. Every so often, I used to march in and take his drink away and always drag him down by the air, off to the floor, then another shore. Now that had another I thought that that had a French artist in but she's not listed here.

Speaker 2  35:29  
Yes, I think there was Robert Beatty was in it. Yes, there was a

Speaker 3  35:34  
Robert Beatty. More a Lister, Stanley Holloway, yes, sure. There was another, I'm just trying

Speaker 2  35:41  
to know that there was a French Canadian actor used in one or two films, and I can't remember his name. He'll come back to us later. Yes.

Speaker 3  35:47  
Then that was, for me, a peaceful picture. There was very little needed in the way of crowd or small parts. It

Speaker 2  35:57  
was mainly shot in Ireland, wasn't it? I mean, the model, yes, that's probably why

Speaker 3  36:01  
I didn't have an awful lot to do with it, because I was getting ready for passport to pimplico. Now on passport to pimplico, I mean, as someone getting budgets out, I had to repair figures, the triads requirements and small parts, etc. Well, not unreasonably, I of course, consulted with the producer and the director. You remember me doing that? I did out a draft, and then went and sat with the director, and we went through all the scenes, and he said, Oh yes, you know, or Oh no. And then I went and did my final figures. And then we used to have the budget meetings in the round table dining room. And

Speaker 2  36:55  
how Mason was there? How was the general Production Supervisor? Wasn't he at the studio? Yes.

Speaker 3  37:01  
And the Secretary, the Acting Secretary of the company, da gray hair, little man was there who never been to these meetings before, and he wasn't on the production staff. He was on the company staff, watching finance and the director was sitting in and of course, when I announced my I ran through the requirements for every set, but of course, location, but of course, then I came to my final figure, which was 22,000 pounds. And everybody looked at me and said, You must be mad. We're not spending that money. You'll have to revise your figures. So I pointed out that I had discussed it with the director and produced that they'd agreed, and therefore the only way I could reduce my figures was if they rewrote some of the scriptures. And there was a hush, you know, truly in a very idiosyncratic manner. I was told, Don't worry, you can have 8000 pounds, and when you get to that figure, you will go and see how Mason well. I reached it in about a fortnight flat. So I rushed in and saw how miss and who said, carry on. And I kept going in and out like a yo yo to house, saying, Do you realize we've now spent and he just said, Oh yes. And in the end, I spent 100 pounds over my original budget of 22,000 pounds. And I almost remember that thinking, you know how mad, in a way, we are in the film business, that you get a script and it calls for certain things, and then suddenly they don't want the money to be there to make it work. But that was about one of the, the worst instances I think I had of that. May I now stop for it, because I have,

Unknown Speaker  39:11  
are you turning over?

Speaker 3  39:13  
Okay, they're not following on passport to family care, which again, was Cabo County. It was Cornelius. Henry Cornelius, lovely, ebullient. Henry Cornelius, now that had also a magnificent, I think, cost Stanley Holloway, Hermione, badly, Margaret Rutherford and Paul Dupuy. He's the Frenchman. Think about, oh, for me, it was a joyous picture, because it had so many small parts and corny. Was wonderful. For me, because he frequently said, Darling, if you think they can do it, I'll have them. So, you know, great challenge, and everything was lovely. And that film I did not see until I'd gone into television, and I caught it at an out of way little cinema once. Then there was whiskey galore, dear Sandy mechanics film, now that I had hardly anything to do with because they shot it all up on location. And at that time, I was getting ready for kind hearts and coronettes and the next film, and so Thelma graves went up. There weren't a lot of crowds required, but there were one or two sort of odd characters. So Thelma went off up to wherever it was. So I can't tell you very much about was seek law, but I can tell you about a little about kind hearts and coronets, again, directed by Robert Hamer, and to me, one of those foreign artists, semi sad films in that the press went for the magical as he was in those days, Alec Guinness, and the fact that he was playing what was it seven parts and Dennis Price, who really was supposed to be the leading man, and was far more known than Alec was. He almost lost out on that film too, Alec Guinness, because Alec got all the publicity. And as a consequence, Dennis being a very gentle creature. Anyway, he faded almost into the background. Nobody seemed to notice his performance. And of course, it had the delectable Joan Greenwood in it, who was enchanting. So that that was where a script almost did a disservice to one of our more notable artists, Dennis price, still,

Speaker 2  42:17  
when you see it again at one most recent time I saw it, you realize it was Genesis performance that really holds

Speaker 3  42:24  
the yes. But there was so much publicity that everybody sat up and started taking notice of then it was a village change film, which was done in 1949 beginning of trade, of events now that had a lot of directors, including yourself. That's right, yeah, basil, Charles Crichton and Nicole, with an illustrious cast. And that was the first film, I think, in which Peter Finch appeared. I mean, he had a part. I mean, we didn't get any billing or anything. And I remember I used to track to him sometimes along the sidelines, but the leading cast was pretty good. Then, a film which

Speaker 2  43:14  
I can find a sound Peter Finch was interesting. His memoirs, I remember reading some years later, he was very appreciative of what he learned in those early years, including that performance in train of events, which was he was erected by basil Dearden, that's right, yes, I remember

Speaker 3  43:32  
he's an arm learning so much. I remember he was saying, then it was run for your money. Charlie friend, I don't remember very much about that one. Then, of course, that was followed by the blue lamp with darling Jack Warner and Bogar playing the Rotter. That had quite a lot of crowds in it. That was a film in the studio, we all had to tingle about we thought it was going to be a great success, and it was. We finally had that worthy subject with something very light, called Dance Hall, and it had a lot of the rank starlets in it. Natasha parry, Jane Hilton, Donald Houston, Bonner, Colina, petulia Clark and Diana Dawes.

Speaker 2  44:31  
Didn't you have a young lady who subsequently became and still is rather famous? Wasn't Joan Joan Collins,

Speaker 3  44:37  
yes, she wasn't mentioned here. I thought she was on it, but she was not, not mentioned on this little list that I have. But I seem to think that very definitely she was on it, but she's not on the cast list, yeah. Well, now that was Charles Crichton. Then we went off to Bitter Springs, which was made in Australia. Yeah, again, I didn't have anything to do with it, because it all took place in Australia. Then we did a lovely Sophie film, which basil Goon directed. And if you think I can remember what it was about, I can't old cage of gold. I

Unknown Speaker  45:16  
can't remember much about and it had

Speaker 3  45:18  
Gene Simmons David Farrar and that man who was very clever, almost too clever, James Donald. And I had to find a lot of enchanting models, really lovely girls. Well, I went after models, but they didn't want to know about filming.

Speaker 2  45:39  
They wouldn't earn so much money. And

Speaker 3  45:42  
I lost quite a number of the girls. You know, they got bookings and off they went, because I was only going to pay them the ordinary crowd winning rate, which was ridiculous. Then we had the magnet, oh yes, with James off, I staggered to one of my few little

Speaker 2  46:04  
James. You should explain that that was James Fox. That was James Fox, known as William, then William Yes,

Speaker 3  46:16  
yes, and his entranting mother, who has now written a book, Angela I can't remember who the main artists were, Stephen Murray, Kay Walsh and William Fox. That was the

Speaker 2  46:32  
that was Charles friend again, with me as an associate. And there was that thing I was telling you we

Unknown Speaker  46:40  
had Brian Mickey on with all the girls. Yes, tell me

Unknown Speaker  46:43  
about Brian Mickey and you had

Unknown Speaker  46:46  
he was a friend before you.

Speaker 1  0:00  
I do public appearances for us up there. I mean, everybody knew brown Mickey. Are

Speaker 2  0:10  
you turning over you were saying about brown Mickey? Oh,

Speaker 1  0:14  
yes. Well, he, although he will, of course, I knew him from the BBC. Knew of him with BBC. I'd never met him, but he was a great friend of Margaret Harper Nelson's. So she rang me and said, do look after Brian. And then Brian came on and he said, Oh, roaring, as you know, I am rather large. Could you see that my bed will stand at me? So I waffled into the room that he was going to have, and bounced about on the beds to make quite sure. And I also made the woman, I did change the bed, because she'd got a very nice bed, but it was rather narrow, so she did put me into another room with a beautiful double bed. And he was also really good, because we had a beauty competition. Now, what was the other side that we were on the other side from Liverpool, West Kirby.

Unknown Speaker  1:09  
We were at West Kirby. Yes,

Speaker 1  1:13  
we had to have a bathing beauty competition. I remember that rather psyched all the camera staff, etc up, but dear Brian was he wasn't in the least interested, except that he'd got to judge this competition, and when the girls are being interviewed, for some reason, I can't think why, but I mean, when one thinks how the girls all expose themselves these days, these bailing beauties were quite shy. And who was looking who was choosing them?

Speaker 2  1:50  
Well, Charles and your Charles and friend and you and I are, they're tries.

Speaker 1  1:55  
And of course, they wouldn't get their skirts up far enough. And I was being hissed at, let's see some more of their legs. So I had said, Now girls, get your skirts up. Let's see a little more.

Speaker 2  2:04  
Fred Charles and I have much to embarrass us. Didn't worry

Speaker 1  2:08  
me in the least. And I do think in a funny way, although nearly all soon after the war, nearly all casting directors bequeath were women in those days, the girls were quite, quite comforted to see a woman about, because I don't think the beauty of competitions in those days had a particularly good reputation. Ours was a filmed one, but they were amazed that it was a woman who was saying, Now, come along, line up and pushing them about. You know, they found that amusing and a relief, in a way, now that, then, after that, we came down to pool of London by Basil dierton. The thing that I find so difficult is I cannot recall in detail the subject matter?

Unknown Speaker  3:01  
Don't think it matters. You know, something

Speaker 1  3:05  
off we went on the Lavender Hill Mob with that enchanting little lady, Katie. And of course, it was the first one that Peter Sellers was in and it also had Alec Guinness. It was a lovely town hall with Charlie price and Stan Yes, now, strangely enough, he's got down here, and I didn't disappear. I'd already got my sitting room floor covered in papers I really couldn't absorb anymore. Then we the studio made where no vouchers fly in Australia. Then the man in the white suit with Alec Guinness, and that was on location in Burnley, being so unromantic that, of course, was the location I went on. Then there was a magnificent picture with thorough Dickinson the secret people, which I produced with Valentina God desertian And Audrey hep His Excellency, Robert Hamer, and with Michael Truman, dear, Michael as the producer. And then, of course, the next year, we were into Mandy, that magical picture with Mandy Miller, starring Phil Calvert, Jack Hawkins and Terence Morgan. It was about a deaf child, and it seemed such an unlikely subject, but when it was released, it went like a bomb. Oh, then the gentle gunman, an Irish subject. With Johnny mill de Berga and Robert Beatty. Then we trundled off down to bath to make a picture that was shown quite recently, I think, last week, the tit field thunder boat that was in high summer, we stayed out of bath at limplis Duke

Unknown Speaker  5:28  
is over the microphone, sorry.

Speaker 1  5:32  
And that was one of the happiest productions that I worked on on location, because it had that charmer, Norton, weighing on it. And I remember we were at some function, because artists were always bothered to do functions for a hospital. And a woman came up, and I was incensed that Norton had calmed me down. She said, Yeah, give a short signature at London. So he read it. He said, Who are you anyway? And I was so cross. I said, Dear, worry. Dear. We're used to it. I thought it was so rude to ask for a man's signature and not know anything at all about him. Then, of course, we had the cruelty. Another lovely picture, but again, I hadn't very much to do on it, because it just had a boatload of men suffering intermittently. So they were set by Head of casting, and I'd have to worry and then meet Mr. Lucifer. Now that was not one of the Ealing directors, it was Anthony palousier, west of Zanzibar, followed The Square ring, the love lottery and Highland fling. Then off we went on to another location when I got to know all the race courses in England. Was called the rainbow jacket, and there wasn't a race course in pursuance of my duties that I didn't go to

Speaker 2  7:18  
well by trying to find people do cast in small parts where jock is on people. Oh,

Speaker 1  7:23  
yes, I did all that. You know, I sort of went and had to go and see the man who owned the stables and the jockey. Yes, I just coped with it on the premises. And we had an awful job in Newmarket getting crowds. Oh, they didn't want to know. Well, there's so much money around in Newmarket that they didn't want to come about. They came for two days, but when as one went on, they dropped away, they didn't want to know. I mean, two guineas when their husbands were worth in those days, 1000s and 1000s. I got a lot of invitations to lovely parties, but that was useless to me, because I wanted the crowds there.

Unknown Speaker  8:04  
Did you get any good tips?

Speaker 1  8:07  
The jockeys the docks gave me tips right, left and center. But, I mean, it wasn't any good having tips from from me, not the jockeys and the stable that, because I had to get a lot of stable there. And I always remember going out and quite rightly, in those days, the people who owned the stables and the managers, they would not let their routines be interfered with in any way. So the boys had got to do their rides, you know, out five o'clock of the morning, come back, do the turning out and looking after their horses. Then they could come and do a little bit of pride work. But of course, just which we were reaching them, they'd got to go off and see to their horses again. So for me, that was a great old headache of production. And I still remember to this day that one some of the crowds I managed to get were servicemen, American servicemen, and we who were still in this country. And we, I got a man who was very, very tall and had an amazingly interesting face. And he settled down to his meal, and he suddenly said, What is this? I said, chicken. Where upon he nearly threw out and rushed out and was sick all over the place, because apparently the his brand of Indian, Red Indian, was not allowed to eat chicken. Now, I think it was soon after this that Ealing began to feel the pinch of increasing costs. Excuse me, lack of. Overseas markets, particularly for America. You know, they really couldn't get distribution in America. And because there were now other things to do, the cinema, audiences were dropping away because of the advance of television. So I was warned that it wouldn't be a bad idea and if I tried to find myself another job, well, I didn't want to leave my beloved healing, but sort of pushed on by Winifred and Eileen, who really knew what was going to happen, but couldn't say anything to me. I went off and thought, Oh, well, I'll go into television. I thought grandly, once again, I was lucky in that. Mr. Jones, who just retired from Fox British, met me one day, and I said, Oh, I'm job hunting. He said, Well, Fox Studios have been bought by associated Rediffusion. Write to them, and he said, I'll find the name of the man that you write to, which he did and I wrote, went up and saw them and sort of Jolly engaged on the spot. Before

Speaker 2  11:12  
you go on further with that Bureau, could you just cast an eye, as it were, back over the evening thing, and say, if there's any people that you know particularly struck you about to whom you would have any stories that you haven't told us so far. I mean, who among all those people are dealing directors and so on, would you specially remember?

Speaker 1  11:35  
Well, I can't really give you any stories, because being in the office, and I was a terribly business like woman, as I'm sure you'll remember, I really wasn't about on the floor very much, or actually on the filming, at the point of shooting, when things might happen. The only thing is a laughing memory of dear o'd Charlie friend on the return of the Vikings when we were up in Hereford and the Norges got us on to drinking a COVID. But I already, for some reason, knew that if you drank a lot of that you were no good the next day. So quite a lot of mine went into the potted pond of the rest home, and the next morning, when I was all full of the joy of life, the entire unit was crawling around, particularly Charles, and they said, Never let us drink any accurate again.

Speaker 2  12:44  
And how did the How was the plant getting on that you poured all yours into?

Speaker 1  12:49  
I never knew, because I left before I could tell whether it had any effect. You know, one film that we don't seem to got on the on the list that I also remember with great affection, was the ship that died of shame that we made at the same time as tit field Thunderbolt, but I had to cross from bath to Weymouth, oh yes, and that was when one of the unit managers played a dirty trick on me. I had to give a contract to a number of the naval personnel who were going to appear. They weren't really doing very much. They weren't acting. They weren't being directed, but they were going about their own business. So for reasons of copyright, it was deemed wise that we got them to sign a piece of paper and pay them a bit of money. Says that we had their performance in pituitary, as it were. And dear unit mer draw sent me down to the heads where, of course, all the chaps were walking around with nothing on. Were they? They were more embarrassed than I was. I was just startled. And then we were entertained aboard one of the ships, and everybody was drinking so much. And again, this unit manager had very kindly told two of the officers that I was easy meat. Say one of them invited me to go and see his itching like a chump. I started out, but dear old Jack Hawkins realized what was going on, and he came and he started. He did. He gave a wonderful performance by saying, Where are you gone and we are biting the hand of the officer at that moment, screamed, oh, I mean, here I'm coming. And of course, he released me when he heard Charles Jack. And I always remember that with great bitterness. And Jack looked after me for the rest of the evening. And again, a lot of my drink was. Disappearing into a sort of spittoon thing that they have. And the next morning, the officer arrived, trailing the most enormous bunch of roses I've ever seen. Came up the hotel, and I was having breakfast with Jack Hawkins, and he's he came in and apologized. And Jack murmur, you'll know in his lovely, deep boy, Elijah. Boy, I really don't think that was the way it behaved. Erwin do it. And then the man told us the story of how he'd been told by the unit manager. But if he wasn't much choice for them, really, because we there was just the enchanting, I think the continuity girl was that lovely Jean, well, of course, her husband was the camera operator, Chick water house. He was there so she was safe. But no, I can't see to me, directors and producers were people of great importance and friendly, as I was with them, I still had them on a pedestal. I wasn't matey. Matey with them, when you really do see the funny side of them, I can still, I mean, Sergey I liked because he had a way of standing that if you say he was Russian, really was very synonymous of his country. He's always stood with his legs slightly apart, and he looked at you and Rama stuck out his lower lip. But he was one of these people whom, if you had a good taste to make, he agreed with you. Carol Canty was the one that I found. I had to choose the moment to go and talk to him. He wasn't anybody one could go up to, although he was a brilliant producer and director, Basil Dearden, well, it was a love hate relationship. I think I had with basil because he was a little drunk. But then you see Michael Relph was there, and he smoothed things over magnificently. No, I don't really think I can. I mean, the director I liked and admired, above all others, was Robert Hamer. He was extremely intelligent, but above all, he listened and he had time, which, you know, quite a lot of directors don't have time. One understands they haven't, but Robert almost made time. My greatest sort of despair of directors was Alex Alexander Mackenzie. I remember when we were doing a film that required, it must have been Lavender Hill Mob, what was he? But he needed a box up,

Speaker 2  18:13  
but he didn't do Lavender Hill Mob, yeah, that's what I thought. It doesn't matter what the

Speaker 1  18:19  
film but anyway, I had to go and find a man who'd got to play a leading role. And of course, I instantly suggested Danny green. He didn't want to know. And I had to go up to East End Boxing Clubs, complete with spit and sawdust, and try and sort out some people. Well, at that time, through previous films, I knew 2x boxes, and they told me where to Eddie Phillips, dear Eddie Phillips. And Eddie was very alarmed that I was going off to these boxing things by myself, but I wasn't very worried. I went along. But of course, you see, in those days, the boxers in the dock area, God bless them. They were, you know, they boxed, and they didn't mind if their brains were nearly knocked out. A lot of them, unlike today's lot, were very inarticulate. When you talk to them, they grunted back at you. They didn't carry on a conversation. So I reported back to Alex and said, You know, it's no good. These people won't be able to do that dialog. There is a lot of dialog. He said, I'll get it out of them. So I brought about six of them down. But of course, he couldn't get it out. Emerick couldn't get a performance out of these people say, of course, we finish up with Danny green, but that was one of my more hair raising experiences. And I also went along to those clubs for what you all in rest. Thing that really rather frightened me to death, because I didn't realize that it was all make believe. I thought, as they were having their heads screwed off, it was real, and I was very awry. I remember once I had to go out, I nearly fainted. But that was my worst experience, because I was going into a field that in my normal life I would have never gone anywhere near, I mean, the Army, the Navy, all that, and the East End, and champagne, Charlie, Nicholas, Nickleby, I had affinity with because I'd read about them, but I'd never read about boxing, so I didn't know what anybody was talking about, and I didn't know what to expect in the way of people. So although I loved old Alex, he did give me one of my biggest headaches unnecessarily, because in the end, he had to agree that they couldn't manage the dialog.

Speaker 2  20:52  
What did you think going on to another subject? What did you What would you say was, if at all, the main thing, or things that you learn from all those years of healing. I mean professionally. I mean professionally.

Speaker 1  21:05  
Well, I mean I was learning all the time, but the great thing and award that I got all for all those years was I got to know so so many artists. I was not aware till I crossed into television, just how many artists performances I could actually enumerate. So I didn't really learn a lot about films, because I was not connected with the technical side at all I was dealing with people and performances, so that over the years, I got a great store of awareness of how People could interpret what their monies were in films. But of course, in those days, the contracts were amazingly easy in films. I'm not saying easy to negotiate financially, but everybody was so civilized. You had marvelous agents who came down and had lunch, results of which you made, sometimes quite a good deal. The only handicap you had was very often the billing, if you'd got artists of equal caliber, but you didn't have any other extraneous things that once we got into television, we had marketing length of performance. I mean, we were doing feature films so that the that, which meant it was going to be about an hour and 20 minutes, two hours that was never taking into account. They either wanted to do the film they didn't, you automatically got world rights. There were no no question of any repeats or restrictive practices. So I had a chance to build up a great reference file of artists

Speaker 2  23:20  
that came in very useful and made your transition into television. I imagine

Speaker 1  23:25  
they wanted I think that I really knew plenty of people.

Unknown Speaker  23:29  
So what was the first job you had

Speaker 3  23:30  
before we move on to television? Do you remember what people were paid in motion pictures and films at that time from the principals?

Speaker 1  23:40  
I don't think I brought it with me. I've got a great I'm sorry I didn't bring it with me. I've got because otherwise I have. I've got all the old lists. We'll talk

Unknown Speaker  23:53  
about your records later. Yeah.

Speaker 2  23:59  
So we'll get that. That would be awfully useful mural. What was just about the money thing? Yes, for the record, but we can do that separately, or you can let us have some information straight into casting. Which was it associated?

Speaker 1  24:16  
It was associated Rediffusion, and it was serving under I went in first as what they called because they had nothing to go on. So I was put in line with the procedure at the BBC, where they call them booking assistance. And I went in at 12 pounds a week. And then it went up to 1000 a year after three months, and I became a casting director, and I went in in March, and our first program, I haven't got. Date that the first program went off. But the things were so difficult, we had no idea, really then what it was we'd got to go after, because it was either you had an area performance, or if you were going to network it, you multiply the area performance by four to arrive at the fee the artist was to be paid. Then you paid them the rehearsal money. Now at associated Rediffusion, it was fairly easy, because the studios were down at Wembley, so that was easy enough to get down to so we didn't have any traveling expenses. A lot of the rehearsals were done on the premises of our offices, which was the old Royal Air Force building in Kingsway. And I remember we often had to stop talking on the telephone as they pitched the eighth floor down a chute. You know, I constantly was saying on the phone, can't talk for a moment, dear. The eighth floor is coming down, and we had such a variety of contractors, sports commentators, children's programs, schools, programs. Then we did films with an American connection, the David susskinds. Then we had a film for another organization, dare I weep, dare I mourn, starring James Mason, which was made in Germany,

Speaker 2  26:44  
apart from the films in those days, the straight TV, as it were, was live, wasn't it? Most Yes,

Speaker 1  26:50  
and I Yes, so that there you were, a sort of a show finished, no hiding place. I cast for about 39 episodes, as well as doing schools and childrens, said, My god, did we work by then, of course, Mr. Drury had got the rest of his team together, which was Erwin from the BBC, lovely lady, Isabel Davy, who came from a variety background. She was very familiar with booking variety artists and Barry Ford, who's now head of Central, who came from films he'd been in Nicholas, Nicholas Nickleby from films and stage and we really to begin with. I mean, Dear Mr. Drury really didn't know exactly what we'd got to go for. And the thing we found so difficult was the marketing. And you see, with the rate of costing me, were having to do you hardly you were so busy suggesting people that to have also to handle all this legal jargon and technicality and talk about it down the phone says that the the artist agent knew what you were buying. I mean, God bless them. Some of them, they didn't even know, because we were operating quite differently to the BBC, because the BBC didn't buy one area like we were buying they they just paid a fee on men.

Speaker 3  28:34  
Were the fees comparable between the BBC and ITV at that stage.

Unknown Speaker  28:41  
Who we were, you? I thought

Unknown Speaker  28:44  
so, yes, but

Speaker 1  28:46  
in the beginning, and I remember one marvelous occasion there was lovely Bucha, you know, stands on the Aldridge. And of course, by the beginning days, we hadn't got a canteen at associated red fusion and I never went costume being well brought up from evening studios, never occurred to me to go. But quite a lot of our ex people were our people were ex BBC. So they just trundled over to the BBC canteen in Bush House, whereupon, on the tannoy one day was said, the BBC staff will be very grateful if the AR people would finish their lunches as quickly as possible, so as we can get something to eat that I thought was really rather embarrassing. However,

Speaker 2  29:40  
forgot what I was. Do you remember when it was fairly early on, wasn't it when the residuals came in for actors, when that was about 55 or 56 oh, yes,

Speaker 1  29:51  
residuals, yes, they were, I won't be sure. That they were on the beginning contracts. But I think they were because we had every intention of repeating certain things, although an enormous amount was wiped and in the beginning days, we didn't really. We regarded the BBC as they regarded us as the deadly enemies. But gradually, particularly when the agents aware of this, would say, Well, of course, on the BBC, they're going to pay themselves. So So I got a bit tired of this. So one day I Erin, they rang up the BBC and said, Look, we don't want to cut one another's throats. I am being told that they said no. And after that, we very discreetly played ball with one another, so that you know that the BBC didn't want to have to pay any more than necessary, any more than we did. But what I find and it went, it went along quite well, and for some years, fees were kept at what I as an employer, employee of my company, thought were reasonable, but by the time I left, I did think quite a lot of people had got very greedy. I mean, we never wanted to pay more than 1000 pounds for the top, top people, I'm thinking now of the SIRs of our industry. I mean, with all their experience behind them, they stood apart. But now you see people who have done they're very clever, but they haven't those years behind them, they come in and they get 4000 pounds a show. Well, no, you know, no wonder everybody's going out of business

Speaker 2  32:01  
because there is inflation meanwhile, oh yes, yes, yes, but I didn't allowing for that without that, I still think

Speaker 1  32:11  
this is why so many, I'm sure, I don't know, but this is why I think so many of the big television companies are going to have such an influx of independence because, you know, they're going to leave the independence to struggle with that problem.

Speaker 2  32:27  
What happened then, after how long we were with associated Rediffusion, did you then? Well,

Speaker 1  32:34  
I was with associated Rediffusion from 1955 in 1964 Mr. Western Tory had retired, Jimmy, somebody called Jimmy Swann took over, and then Jimmy left rather unexpectedly. I never quite knew all about that, and I was suddenly summoned down and told would I care to be head of associated Rediffusion, which I thought that was rather nice, particularly as I had another job in the offing as well, which nobody knew about, and I was waiting to go for an interview, and I had been assured by the gentleman that they only wanted to see me just to shake hands with me. The job was mine. The similar thing happened at the very beginning of AR When Hal Mason ran me up and asked me to go back as head of casting, because it was at the time that Sir Michael was linking up with MGM. But by then, I was into television and rather liked it, so I thanked them kindly and refused well,

Speaker 2  33:42  
just as well, really, because that wasn't very long before constraints. But

Speaker 1  33:48  
I found television absorbing exciting, and also they did something that was not done very much in films. I think it had done now, but it wasn't done then, in that I it was expected that I would cover, I mean, if I ever had time, all the shows that came on, all the films go to outlying theaters, which was really very essential, because I had got to be able to report on artists performances, because the great thing was that in the beginning of Independent Television, most of the directors who came to us operated on the BBC lines that they got their script, they had their production secretary. The production secretary was told to ring the agents and explain what was wanted and leave the agents to give lists. It was a little bit of a battle to begin with, but then they found. Having a casting director there in the building with them who had thoroughly read script, who had made long lists of suggestions, who could tell them the latest thing each artist had been with, who could do their budget for them, was a great advantage, but that was the different pattern of casting compared to the BBC.

Unknown Speaker  35:26  
Did you when you went to theaters? Did you then compile

Speaker 1  35:31  
one, then did a report one say an individual reaction to I never bothered about the play. I didn't criticize the play. I didn't think that I was sufficiently experienced to talk about scripts, but I did talk about performances, and annotated every performance. Then copies of that were distributed when I was working for Mr. Drury, when they went to the other casting directors because we weren't allowed to cover. I mean, six people couldn't go off and see follies, which they'd want to do nowadays. I mean, you know, one very good show, only one person drew it as it were. But it meant we got enormous coverage, because we all read one another's notes on performances, and perhaps an agent would suggest an artist, and we would remember that we'd seen a report about the artist in a play, say, covered by Isabel Davy. So I'd trot down the corridor and talked to Isabel, and as a consequence, we did get quite a lot of new people. I have, to this day a note in my files from dear Ray dicks of Ealing congratulating us on the wide variety of rarely new faces. We got into no hiding place. But of course, when you had to guess dumping off down to Guildford and then get home. It got a bit tiring sometimes, because I was often out four or five nights a week after working. It was it. It was great, great pressure in television, far more than it was for me in films, because we had, I mean, with seven days a week, and I cannot remember the exact number of hours. I mean, I could if I went delving into files, how many hours we had to contribute on the network, but the there we were with five casting directors, and each of us had at least, at least three or four shows we were covering, and some of the shows were weekly, turn rounds. I mean, no hiding place was weak. We did, of course, another type of contract we had to create was when, in the beginning, before they blocked them, we used to do advertising programs Jim, I think one of them with darling Jimmy handling was called Jim's house, in which you rather prominently displayed das or some other Lux, or Heinz beans that the wife was cooking with, sort of things

Speaker 2  38:30  
the complete opposite of what used to happen in films. Everybody was careful not to show anything quite proprietary in that

Speaker 1  38:36  
way. Well, the IBA very soon got on to that, and that those programs were stopped. But where I think, I consider that a great contribution was made by the independents, FOA schools, programs, they really took a lot of trouble over this. We did some splendid documentaries. There was the one on Lord Louis Mountbatten, which was absolutely wonderful. And we were doing contract for all sorts of odd people. There was the racing programs, but the turnover of drama lighted entertainment. Children and schools kept us going full blast. I mean, we associated Rediffusion, were the first people in a program by Joan Kemp Welsh called already steady go to use the Beatles. And I can remember to this day telling Mick jaggeroff for making a noise down the corridor when he was going, what and what was he the Rolling Stones he and somebody else were pelting down the corridor. And I came out and said in my grand voice, excuse me, but the this is. A working block, and we had to board the windows of our offices in Kingsway up because we were sieged by fans on Ready Steady gear. We had the police Mounted Police practically on the pavement of all these fans trying to get in, because already a steady go. No, it would i So,

Unknown Speaker  40:32  
how long did you stay there until,

Speaker 1  40:35  
well, until I became head of casting in 64 which was, as I said, I was very rapidly promoted thanks to the war at healing studios, but it took me nine years to get to the headship in television. Then, of course, Rediffusion lost its license. So

Speaker 2  41:01  
what did you do? Pardon, so, what did you do then?

Speaker 1  41:04  
Well, I sort of gazed into space and wondered what I was going to do. And then I was invited to join Yorkshire, and I had lovely ski lovely ideas that it would be very pleasant to live in Yorkshire. But of course, I pointed out to them that if they had me up there, it would mean enormous train fairs as I came backwards and forwards into with the director, interviewing artists. So the directors also wanted to be in London, because it meant they could see many other people, the music people, the set designers. They were all up in the Leeds. But the initial work did start as it were, down in London, and then on one occasion, we had a lovely BBC director in on a children's and I hadn't met him, and the next thing I had was suddenly a scream from our accounts department. What's this? This invoice we've had for 20 children, four chaperones, so many meals and fairs up to Leeds. Well, I hadn't got a clue what they were talking about, but I said, Well, what's the name of the production? They told me. I said, aha, that's that new man from the BBC. Well, it had cost a bomb. What were the fairs, the food? And suddenly the studio bosses saw what it meant if we put everything up in Leeds, all the fairs, of everything up and down.

Unknown Speaker  42:54  
So they changed course on that. Did they? They did,

Speaker 1  42:56  
yes. I mean, the directors wanted it, and it did. It certainly worked very well, but it meant it was difficult, because it was a split operation, in a way, because you rehearsed in London at some of the outline rehearsal rooms. You engaged your artist. You started rehearsal in London. Your director was down here, then they had to go up for the last three days to Leeds going up the day before camera, rehearse neck the next day, the day after, do the show. And then some of them shot straight back, but we normally pay another overnight stay well that became very costly towards the end. So these the outlying studios have had quite a burden to bear. Many of them, of course, do use local artists and have local casting directors, but since you are trying to capture a network for your subject, you have got to have fairly well known artists for everyone. But the artists always enjoyed going up because the studios were magnificent up in Yorkshire. I've got pictures of them here, and they really are lovely. There was plenty of room, although it was set out in a strange area. It was more of a rather like the old exhibition grounds at Wembley. It was a commercial development area, not at all glamorous.

Speaker 2  44:46  
What point did tape come in? I'm trying to remember, because that must have affected these sort of considerations. You were just, oh

Speaker 1  44:53  
yes, as soon as one was able to tape, it was, I'm afraid, I don't know. You know that was technical. I. Yeah, and it, I haven't absorbed that in, in that my consideration was always artists, artists and more artists, the technical side. I mean, we, there was a strike, I think that came

Speaker 1  45:21  
by equity, first track they ever had. And I all remember I was very sad, because what it meant was we had to pay more money, basically more money and more rehearsal money. And as a consequence, a great cutting out of the in between parts went on, which meant that many artists who had just made a living and were very happy and loved doing their work suddenly lost a lot of jobs because we were skimming some of the cream away. I have to stop because I can't think of anything more at the

Speaker 2  46:06  
moment. Well, I was only going to ask you, what was I going to ask you? Finally, thank you very much. It's been very extraordinarily interesting. I would wouldn't like to ask you, looking back, you would have never wanted, I imagine to have gone into any other line of career, or would you

Speaker 1  46:26  
How Could one say, I mean, I was, I was very lucky to get into this, and I loved every moment of it. But I think since I've retired, which is 10 years ago now, I've had the most interesting life. So I feel that I might have enormously enjoyed teaching, and I would have liked a job whereby I could have traveled far more than I been able to do. I

Speaker 1  0:02  
Let me find your money, my money, and I

Speaker 2  0:07  
just just to finish off what we were talking about before, which is you were saying you'd had a very interesting time since you retired, although you'd enjoyed every moment of your actual career in casting, but you've been doing interesting things. Well,

Speaker 1  0:23  
when one was working in the film business or in television, you either gave your entire attention to it, even in your free time. I mean, in you, not only was one going out covering shows to see artists performances. You also had to watch a lot of television, and that too very frequently did over the weekend, and it left very little time for other outlets.

Speaker 2  0:52  
Did you always get paid overtime for going to the theater? For instance?

Speaker 1  0:56  
No, but you did get you got two seats now, if you were going to a West End Show that was very nice, you could take a friend or an agent or somebody with you, and you got a meal allowance. No, once I became head I got no overtime. I didn't get any overtime. All the time I worked at associated tree diffusion or Yorkshire. You did it for labs, but Well, you got, I mean, if somebody had to go down, which we sometimes had to do, to Bristol or to bar, you've got your traveling expenses, yes, and you know, meal allowances, but no overtime, no, no. That

Speaker 2  1:39  
remind that brings us back to something we touched on earlier. And I believe we've got some information there about money paid to artists and so on, particularly well, you know?

Speaker 1  1:49  
Oh, well, no, that I will have to bring in. I haven't got artists money. What

Speaker 2  1:54  
have you got there? Then I've just got my own. Yes, that would be very interesting.

Speaker 1  1:58  
Now, when I was, you see, we are going back enormously now. When I was, I started with Fox British pictures in 1935 as junior Secretariat to Ernest GART side, I got two pounds a week. Then when I was recalled in the May of 1935 I was given the job of Secretary to the publicity director, an enchanting chap called Jeff Davian, and I got two pounds 10 a week. I mean, which would what will now be 250, a week. When I crossed over to 20th Century Fox to work with Hugh Alexander, I'm using 20th Century Fox. Used the fox British pictures. Fox British was a sort of offshoot of 20th I got three pounds, 50 plus a pound traveling allowance to Pinewood Studios. Now what is so unfortunate is that I threw off my healing papers with I have no idea what I was paid at healing studios. To this day, I even tried digging about in my old income tax files. Guess what happened? I'd got so many I threw those out when I moved, and I only kept a lot of lot of my TV stuff so

Unknown Speaker  3:41  
so you really know the next information

Speaker 1  3:42  
now into 1955 when I joined associated Rediffusion for 12 pounds a week in March in May, they put me up to 1000 pounds per year. And by 1964 I was up to by annual increments, and you only got annual increments to 16 166 pounds a year. When I became head of casting, my salary went up to 2150 that was in 1964 when I finally left. In 68 I left, I retired, but I carried on as casting consultant, freelance with the contract, but when I stopped being head of casting and retired, I was getting i.

Speaker 1  5:02  
Uh, 2150 I've given you that, haven't I? Yes, you

Speaker 2  5:06  
must i 3000 3000 and yes, you must have had increments. Then

Speaker 1  5:10  
in I joined Yorkshire Television. No, no, no, no. December, 1964 what I haven't got? No, I haven't got the salary that I left as head Rediffusion. When I joined Yorkshire Television, I got, I was joining as head of casting, and I got 3000 pounds. And by the time I left, which was in 1975 I was getting 5915 pounds.

Unknown Speaker  5:52  
That's very interesting. Those figures,

Speaker 1  5:53  
yes, yes. I mean, when you I mean, I know what a lot of my mates are getting. Now. I know what they offered me at one time when I was busy enjoying my retirement, I was asked to go back and freelance with another company, and I didn't want to do it, so I said, I want 200 pounds a week. To my astonishment, they said, Yes. Then I had to cook up some excuse. I got round? Did I got round? Because

Speaker 2  6:22  
you really didn't want, I didn't want to. No, those figures are really very interesting. Yes, I

Speaker 1  6:27  
thought they would be in January to join the head of casting. So I started at 3000 pounds. And then by the end of seven years, is it? I'd gone up to just on 6000

Unknown Speaker  6:47  
not bad, I suppose, in those days. Well, it's, you

Speaker 1  6:49  
just have to take account of, you know, the passage of time. But, you know, I, I don't a lot of people say, oh, you should be in the industry now. You'll be earning fortune. I might earn a fortune, but I don't think the industry, the television industry, is as good as it was.

Unknown Speaker  7:11  
You mean, in quality of production, quality

Speaker 1  7:12  
of production, in the diversity, the way, it seems to me, quite a lot of the companies don't quite know. They don't project their plans so well ahead as we did in the old days. I mean, to begin with, it was a Scrabble, but there were plans. Everything was plotted, rather like the film Ealing film studios we knew about a year ahead what we were going to do. That is my impression. I mean, there seems to be a greater hiving off of products in that they're getting far more independence to do it. They don't seem to carry the permanent interested staff that they did this. I understand, because Noel permanent staff are expensive. Yes,

Speaker 2  8:18  
good. Anything else you'd like to say? Probably

Speaker 1  8:25  
yes, I think I was lucky, but I do think, well, if you're going to get anywhere, particularly in television and films, you got to be mammoth. Ly, well read, you also got to be single minded and not afraid of work, because these two industries do absorb every waking hour almost, so that if you're worrying about your money or you're worrying about something else, you're not projecting creatively onto the canvas, you've got to get onto The screen, so that for anybody coming into the business, they must give themselves a terrific grounding. I don't think anybody should come into this industry without a good education and a rarely you have no time to study once you're in. So you've got to do all your study before you come into the business and equip for yourself and then work like a black fine.

Speaker 2  9:48  
Well, thank you very much. Mary. Old, anything else, Roy, you wanted to ask, I'd

Speaker 3  9:52  
be very curious, your memories of Fox British, which is going back to the beginning of your career, the atmosphere there, the films they were made. Making the individuals that you can recall your mind wandering. Yes,

Speaker 1  10:05  
there was a wonderful director, an American called Al Parker, who became an agent. And he was old fashioned to the degree that in order to get an artist to weep instead of talking, as I watched many a director do at Ealing studios, and getting them into the mood. Al for barrister, talk to this poor artist, Vicky Dobson, you're not gonna talk. Sorry, and I know Totten, so nobody talked to Vicky with the consequence, and even her leading man was forbidden to talk to her, which was James Mason, with a consequence that she cried and she cried and she cried. Now, in a way, Al Parker was like a Sir van galley. He told them, I think was very, a very cross little man all the time. And he told them what he wanted, and he really smiled at them if they didn't get it, there was no gentleness at all. Now, that funny? Why can I only remember? I remember, of course, Ernest GART side, who was the managing director, was my boss. What sort of Erwin was he? Very crisp. But I really had a feeling that, apart from the business side, he didn't like artists or the theater, he was marvelous at the business side of it, keeping the studio ticking. And of course, you see another thing I remember so clearly, even at healing studios, was the great respect with which one had to treat one's bosses. In those days, it was a case of yes sir, no, sir, three bags full, sir. And heaven help you if you didn't. I mean, they weren't horrid to one in any way, but there was a code of behavior to which one adhered. But one has to remember that was just before the Second World War when anybody who was a secretary or an assistant secretary was really the lowest of the low. I'm sorry I can't remember more.

Speaker 2  12:51  
Were you at Fox? Of those Fox Studios that's at Wembley, isn't it? Yes, at the time. I'm trying to remember when corder made some pictures there before Denver studios, we

Speaker 1  12:59  
didn't have coward in but we did have evergreen with darling Jesse Matthews. She did that scene dancing on the ceiling. You see, they took the studio over and built the set because there were so many sets going on British that they had to come out and do some there. And, I mean, she was a legendary figure then, so much so that, whereas when, as I was at healing, even, you know, just as a humble Secretary, I quite happily trundled onto the floor and had a look at everybody, you couldn't do that at Fox British, you were not allowed. You

Unknown Speaker  13:36  
weren't allowed unless you had business. Oh no.

Speaker 1  13:38  
I mean, I was sent on the floor. On one occasion, Mr. GART side called me and said, me or old. Do you think you can face or miss Cole, as he formerly called me? Do you think you can talk to Mr. Parker? So my mouth fell over the yard. He said, Well, don't take any notice of him. Just say the talk from me, from me, and go and find him. And I remember I had to hover and hover. I mean, Al was not shooting at the time, but I had to stand. I couldn't say to him, Mr. Parker, may I talk to you? I have a message from I had to wait till he caught my eye and said yes, and then I was permitted to relay my message. Now with Jesse Matthews, I couldn't go on the floor, but one day, quite accidentally, I was I was on a message somewhere, and she came through in her lovely costume, and she was sweet. She smiled at me and said gently, hello. I said, Hello. And I think from then I became very interested in artist. I remember watching her performance, and we had we did a lovely film called Old roses, which was a quota film. And. And it had cyl Coke's father in it. Now, what was his name? Edward Rigby, oh yeah, darling, white haired, old actor. And we had that actor who died so tragically, young, really? Barry bond, Barry K Barnes, and we had James Mason. Oh, I've got all my old because I was doing publicity there, and I've got all my old publicity sheets at home. But it's so sad you see, as you go through those lists, you weep all over the place because they're all dead. It's rather like the appreciation sheet signed by all my friends at Ealing studios. I stared at it this morning because I've had it framed. And as I looked at the names, I realized they've all gone Michael Turner, Seth, Holt, basil, Jordan, Reggie Baker, Alex is still alive, isn't he? Alex mccandry,

Unknown Speaker  16:07  
he's in Los Angeles. Ah,

Unknown Speaker  16:09  
yes.

Speaker 2  16:11  
Charlie friend, he's dead, yes. Oh, I know. I know Johnny cried and is still alive.

Unknown Speaker  16:17  
Yes, yes.

Speaker 2  16:21  
Michael Truman, yes. But Harry, what died most?

Unknown Speaker  16:26  
Yes, quite recently,

Unknown Speaker  16:30  
les Norman is still around, yes,

Speaker 1  16:32  
but he's been out the scene in a way, apart from his very, very clever son, Barry, whom I adore. I mean, I don't know him. Never met him, but joy to watch this. Deliciously barbed comments.

Unknown Speaker  16:49  
Do you remember Eddie dryhurst? Don't

Unknown Speaker  16:51  
remind me about Mr. Dryhouse. Dry hair

Unknown Speaker  16:53  
still,

Unknown Speaker  16:56  
and I've never forgotten it.

Speaker 3  16:57  
He's just joined our group so we can pass the message. Yes,

Speaker 1  17:01  
I have never forgotten it. When the studio folded at some closed for a time, Eddie came along and said, Would you like to be my secretary? I thought that'd be lovely secretary, so I said, Yes. Now I got my first week salary, but I didn't get my second and all that, dear Norman Ness, who was then a sort of production supervisor, said, was I told you so, because he told me not to take the job, and he was very tactful about it. He didn't quite know how to come at it, that he didn't think I'd get my money, but that's what he meant. But it was a good experience. You know, after that I got everything, rather on the line. How

Speaker 2  17:42  
did Eddie explain this to you that he wasn't going to pay your audience? Well, he wasn't, you know, he wasn't there. He wasn't there.

Speaker 3  17:50  
Was it a happy studio? Fox? British,

Speaker 1  17:55  
yes, yes. I was very happy. But because of the in and out. I mean, imagine when you got your letter of confirming your engagement, you were told it was a week's notice on either side, and when all the staff were laid off, they only got a week's notice. I got the letter at home still, which, I mean, would never be a lot

Speaker 2  18:21  
nowadays, would it? When did you actually become a member of act as it was then? Can

Speaker 1  18:26  
you remember? Yes, 1939 and Mary hammerfield, Mary, have fun.

Unknown Speaker  18:30  
Yes, yes. That was a dreaming then that was

Unknown Speaker  18:32  
appealing, yes. But, of course, so that went on, but television wasn't until the latter years, didn't get organized, and I think Mr. Weston Dori didn't want me to become a union member, so I let my membership lapse.

Speaker 1  18:58  
Then when I became head, I found it rather difficult. I was approached, but I said, you know, you can't really serve two masters. I've got to represent the company so that if my staff are doing something wrong, if I'm a true union member, I'd probably side with them.

Speaker 2  19:24  
We might have sided with them anyhow, that Muriel in certain instances, perhaps, yes,

Speaker 1  19:28  
I'm talking more about the trivia of time. And of course, you see, when you think of the hours we did and we weren't paid any overtime. I mean, none of us got any overtime. I didn't all the years, and the end, my staff weren't getting any overtime. But so the, I mean, that is an aspect that I think is very difficult. Thought for the Union to control.

Speaker 2  20:06  
Hmm, how do you mean quiet? I don't I'm not sure. Well,

Speaker 1  20:10  
you see, if somebody's deeply interested in their job, they don't necessarily turn even if they could get over time, they don't always turn over for it.

Unknown Speaker  20:19  
Yes, I see what you mean. Yes.

Speaker 1  20:24  
Now you see, and when I was at healing, I when I went did that the return of the Vikings, I sort of jumped quite quickly into being unit manager, just for the period. And I remember dear Joe came and saw me, and he said, Now, look, you've been doing the unit manager because I carried on when I got back, you've been doing the unit managers job. You must be paid for it. And I remember I hit the roof and said, Look, you will not ask for it, because I'm only doing it for this picture. I know I'm not doing it anymore, and it's a marvelous training experience for me, so please don't go for them. You see, I can see that I haven't got the right union attitude, have I?

Speaker 2  21:10  
That was Joe yea, was it? Yes, trying to remember the shock steward, he

Speaker 1  21:16  
and somebody else came toddling along and said, we are going to ask. I said, No, you can't ask if I don't back you. No, it would

Unknown Speaker  21:23  
be very difficult, since

Unknown Speaker  21:25  
your voice here was healing considered to be strongly

Unknown Speaker  21:28  
union, or, oh yes,

Unknown Speaker  21:32  
image of the benevolent Academy. Well,

Speaker 1  21:35  
I found it benevolent Academy Deidre. You remember Ralph Hogg and I came on to the committee? Yes, I remember to have a little bit of a fight with you. Yes, it was

Speaker 2  21:49  
highly organized. It wasn't necessarily, you know, there were, as the Muriel says, there were differences, of course, inside the union members there, but it, but

Speaker 1  21:58  
it, I mean, I was Mary Haberfield came after us. Before I was an assistant director, Mary came and asked me and explained about the union, and I said, very happy. Oh, yes, I'll join.

Unknown Speaker  22:10  
Had you felt exploited? No, never.

Speaker 1  22:12  
I think while you're learning, no, you'll teach. It's an attitude of mine, doesn't it? While I'm learning. I'm not exploited. If I know my job and they don't pay the rates, then I'm exploited. Yeah,

Speaker 2  22:28  
I see what you mean. Yes, it's interesting point of view. That's

Unknown Speaker  22:31  
my point. I never felt exploited at

Speaker 3  22:34  
dealing they are. You were exploited to some extent,

Speaker 1  22:37  
to an extent, but I was still, still thought you were learning.

Speaker 3  22:42  
Oh, has a very strange reputation in Legend, I think, largely because of obviously character. Tom Brown League,

Speaker 1  22:50  
running a tight ship, very tight ship, yes. But a brilliantly clever man, he knew people. I mean, he little tiny incidents, but for a busy managing director to remember a note, Mr. Drury, whom I adore, was very expert as all people who hold top jobs should be at delegating. So darling, Mr. Drury, used to disappear quite about three times a week. You did you disappear? Probably about three, anytime between three and four of an afternoon. I mean, if there was a crisis on each day, but he did well. I was very because I was having to park, get ready and compile all the lists. It was before we'd opened, but so he went, and there was a knock. I had the office adjoining his, and I thought I heard a knock, and I poked my head through the door, came back into my office to find my office door open and Captain brown Rick standing there. Well, then, at that time, I treated him with the Noel, you know, great respect. He was the high Pam jammer. And he said, I remember I stood to attention like something in the Navy. And he said, Ah, Miss Cowell, isn't it? I agreed that it was, and he said, Ah, I want to talk to Mr. Western Drury. Is he not in his office at the moment? So I thought, oh god. So I said, No, I'm afraid he's gone off for the afternoon. He's gone down to the theater at winter. Oh, said, Mr. Captain brown Dick, and shut the door. And then it opened again, and he smiled sweetly at me and said, He lives at Windsor, doesn't he miss Cole? And shut the door see he'd got it in one that I was covering. And of course. I was trying to tell the truth within reason, being potty and that sort of a person in that I knew that Wesson had to pass the theater hardest way, but I found he ran a tight ship. He didn't know an awful lot about television, but then, why should he? He built or been responsible for Milton Keynes, hadn't he? The

Unknown Speaker  25:33  
controlling committee was here Milton Keynes? Yes,

Speaker 1  25:35  
setting up, setting up. Also. He came and pissed us every time. And there were plenty of problems at the beginning of associated Rediffusion regarding money, and there was trouble on the board. And every time we were summoned for three occasions, the entire staff was summoned up, and he told us, I won't say he told us every detail, perhaps it was just skirted round, but he put us in the picture. I think again, I know it sounds absurd, but absorbed in our own departmental work, working to a man Western who knew his profession. We didn't have to worry it too much. We just got on with it, and we were very much left alone. So there was an enormous amount of trouble to begin with. And you see, we didn't get contracts for some time, and when the contract time was coming up, it was very interesting to see how quite a lot of people disappeared from the staff weren't given contract.

Speaker 3  26:55  
Do you think that was the way of sorting?

Speaker 1  26:58  
Yes, yes. I think I from my own knowledge, there were quite a number of people who went who I thought, Oh, they really know what they're at. By that, I mean, the firm knew what they were at. They were getting rid of people who didn't really pull their weight. No, it, I can't say I noticed a side ship, but working to Western Drury, I was protected.

Unknown Speaker  27:30  
Good. Anything else

Unknown Speaker  27:33  
carried on like a dude.

Unknown Speaker  27:36  
It's fascinating, you know. Thank you very now,

Speaker 1  27:38  
what you would like I'm not. I know why I didn't bring that list up. I wondered whether I ought to disclose artist money. It's all right, disclosing my own. I

Speaker 2  27:52  
think you could protect that if necessary, by not saying the actual names, but saying the kind are fine. You know that, for example. But don't you think so? Starring role, yeah, starring role. Between, when you were dealing between x,

Speaker 1  28:07  
you cannot compare it to television, television, I mean, I can give you, give you a starting fees in television, if you like, compared to what that they were getting when I left.

Speaker 2  28:20  
Those things would be extremely interesting. Yes, What era are we talking

Unknown Speaker  28:26  
about? Actually, the records

Unknown Speaker  28:29  
that you have, evening days, evening days, well,

Speaker 3  28:31  
I need so long ago that it really is history now, right?

Speaker 1  28:34  
Yes, well, I can give you some of the even the

Speaker 3  28:38  
government only puts 30 years are most things? Yes, so much time has elapsed. Yeah,

Speaker 2  28:47  
what you mean? Wise to worry. It's not necessary to worry about the names.

Speaker 1  28:55  
This is it. And I thought, poor dears, why should they? I looked at it. Should I take that up? And I don't know. It's their business, not mine. It is the stuff of his. Yes, yes, quite I believe, yeah, I don't think I given you that would be

Speaker 2  29:08  
go into the archive, you see, and would be as connected with the tape, and would be a similarly, well,

Speaker 1  29:17  
I can certainly give you Ealing salaries, if I don't have to nominate all the time the people,

Speaker 3  29:23  
what do you intend to do with your written records? The

Speaker 2  29:26  
ones here, only one here, if you like.

Speaker 1  29:32  
Oh, what all of the oh, well, you see, I've got all my old cast lists not from Ealing studios. So I say, I'm afraid I jettisoned. I never dreamt it would be wanted. But I've got Ealing. I've discovered that I seem to kept that far for some reason. Ealing cost salaries. You may have the actual people's names that would be very interesting to hear. But what do you want? Do you want copies of that? Or do you want me? Ease of just to come on the telephone and tell you, Well,

Speaker 3  30:02  
I would hope you will the original records you, at some stage, will give to the British women.

Speaker 1  30:08  
Oh, yeah, yes, I haven't thought of that. I mean, I was moaning away because I the I can't climb steps or anything, so my poor neighbor has to go up and get all these files. I mean, I couldn't get into my lounge yesterday for papers spread away and forgotten. Yes,

Speaker 3  30:26  
well, any written records, any materials, scripts, cast lists, unit lists, anything like that. The BFI would love to have it with your permission. The deputy librarian, her name is Frances Thorpe, I will ask her to contact you. Yes, flying ladders and do anything that you want. Now, this is only if you want to relinquish it now. No,

Speaker 1  30:48  
I don't want to relinquish it now, but I have to put a little note in my will, and I that all I will say all papers, because by all papers except my diaries, which are also, you see, I didn't keep a diary until 19. I started keeping diaries in 1955 but so I will keep she can do what she liked in my diaries, to throw them out. But all the other material is my career papers of great interest that

Unknown Speaker  31:20  
would be very useful indeed. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1  31:26  
Johnny good, my cast list, and I tell you what would be of enormous interest. I looked at him, thought, I can't carry that lot up. Were all the contracts in television that I ever did? Golly,

Unknown Speaker  31:41  
that would be fantastic to leave to the BFI.

Unknown Speaker  31:44  
It really was able to speak new to that

Speaker 2  31:47  
now very important question not to not being recorded. Can we offer you something to eat and drink? Well, I have no idea what the.