John Dark

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The copyright of this recording is vested in the Ac t history project. John Darke film producer recorded on the 10th of December 1990 at Twickenham film studios. Interviewer said Coe with Ellen Lawson side one okay. John it's nice to see you after all these years. Tell me since we're talking about all these years all these years ago when we were born and what was your family background. Well I was born in 1927. My parents were divorced but my father was when he wasn't drinking he was a journalist. But the lack of the drinking took more time I think than the writing my grandfather was a rather eminent ecclesiastical writer. He was the editor of the Church Times and he wrote for the evening your regular column for the evening news by any claim. Families claim to fame was that we used to own Lord's cricket ground. He used to own it. Yes well the dogs used doing it. Yes you wonder whether it was with dogs round before it became Woods. That's right. Yes. And I you every time I passed it I think how wonderful it had been at an all the flats that I kind of built on that place. Think how much money to make what a monster. I'm a cricket. Yeah. Think is my boring game in the world. I love looking at big blocks of flats. I think everybody don't understand Johnny the fact that cricket is so boring as part of its attraction. If you're a real person. Yes. Anyhow so none of your family had any concern with the entertainment business. No. So how did you get into. Well first of all tell me about your education. Well I was educated at the schools I just went through the usual pattern of middle class boy and went to prep school. I then managed to talk my mother into sending me to Italia countries but my grandfather father heard about that and I was immediately whipped out because it was show business was sort of akin to brothel running and I was sent to a penitentiary which went under the name of a public school. But there's actually not much difference. And so I didn't think much of that. So I win my holidays I went to Ealing Studios to see if I could get a job and I was 14 and they said yes they can get me a job in the camera department. And I came back and announced the fact that I was going to leave school and go to to Ealing and that caused another family crisis and I was forced back to school where that was on my side and I was caught in the art department with a girl and that was would have been right but it was a town girl you see which wasn't all right. There was a school that was at Wellington in Somerset and. I. So that was it was suggested that is I wanted to leave so much but probably wouldn't be a bad idea. So then I went back to Ealing and the job gone of course but I had I had the fortunate thing of living next door to a cameraman called Jack Whitehead and Jack Whitehead got me a job in the sound department at Chip's Bush studios. Why were you so keen on major so keen on getting into the films. I haven't the faintest idea. Did you go to films a lot. Yes. Well everybody went to films a lot in those days. I mean it was nothing there but I just knew that's what I knew I was going to do. I didn't know what I was going to do in it but I knew that's what I was going to do it. Yes. Yes. So then Jack Whitehead got you this job. Where was that Shepherd's Bush Lone Grove Gainsborough pictures 1942. What does your first sound loader sound. Yes it's slightly lower than the studio cat. The days in the days of optical sound of course appears across. What was it. What pictures do you remember that were there being shot was the young Mr Pitt. I remember very vividly that was the first film that was Harry Reid who was with Robert dunnit. Robert Morley lovely film term. And that money where you own two pounds a week how much. Two pounds two pounds. Yes yes. Then I remember them all. That was Phil Salter Les. Les Hammond was actually still on the cameras that time. He became a thing. Gosh I'd say I do remember them all. Isn't it hard now. Charlie was on the boom of course when he wasn't throwing cheese rolls at the studio manager. I can't remember this very well. How long did you stay. Well what happened was I manage with my brilliant mathematics lose 25000 feet of film. So they thought it sand loading really wasn't the occupation for me. I don't have no idea but it was all to do with mathematics you know. I remember even rarer than he ever knew even plus she was up until a short time ago still living in one of those little houses at Pinewood but she was in the accounts department when I met her at. Time. Years later when I was a producer and she still said poor little chap it really wasn't your fault. It was nice that somebody so still thought of me as little chap. Anyhow they were there when they didn't find me. You see because you couldn't find people in those days after the war was on and way too many people around then there was no way to get out. Me too. So they promoted me. I was kicked upstairs and all that sir and I became 16 I was a dumping mixer and I was Bill Slaughter's assistant for years. That's when I first came in touch with Lewis with Lewis Gilbert. And I was there until I went into the army at 18. Had you become a member of Rotary team. Yes. Well Charlie approach me you see and in my family to belong to a trade union was almost sacrilegious. You have to understand. So I said right. I know about that as it really should. I didn't know about that. Anyhow Charlie sort of convinced me I thank God that I'd get another threepence on my supper allowance or something. And I became so that was when I was 16. It's been about 40 43 somewhere around there and I became a member of ACTU and been fighting it ever since. This is the first one of the extraordinary things about this business. On occasions when I've been on a negotiation everybody round the table on both sides with members or ex members of course I know. Well I think it was one of its main things that was wrong with it actually. I don't think that production people should have been could have had a separate union because of Iran. Of course because of course you've got crushed you couldn't take the. And his point of view you are the company you know how can you possibly put yourself on both sides. And of course what happened was that you sort of had to do attack for withdrawal didn't you. If you were management but I mean really there was no reason why you shouldn't be there. That was one of the things one of the numerous things that were wrong with it. So what happened after. How long. Then I spent three and a half years in the Army embarked on what were you. I was in the I was in East Africa Kings Africa touched the King's African Rifles and if you asked me what I was doing I had I was just having a wonderful time. Didn't you see much action. Not see any action to try to he never rifle. They had heard about the 25000 feet I think so yes I think so yes. I learnt to speak Swahili and was a great advantage to it. It was strangely enough. Yes because I went back there because when I came out of the army and that would be 1948 and then I got married and had a child and there is no work that was I remember that period. That was great. Yes. That there was absolutely no work. So I went home one night and I said to my wife I said oh we're going to go and get out of here. There's nothing here for sure we're going to go to. I said well we're going to Africa because I can always get work in Africa because I speak the language we got on a boat we didn't have a job and we just left and went to our Mombasa really where we went to Mombasa first called the train up to Nairobi. What did you get as well John. Well the night before I left I went to my local pub and I said to the guy I'm leaving tomorrow. So he said What you going to do. I said I don't really know. He said Well you know we've been you brewery out there. It's the first time overseas we've opened a brewery. You said you'd get marine and that's what I did. And that was all stops and I'd put their product that beer on the market in Kenya and Tanzania which is now Uganda and Zanzibar. That was my territory. So I had two years doing that a lot of money but the Mal mal campaign was things up quite heavily underway at that time. And I sent my my daughter had been born out there. She was practically killed and so we sent them back on what was known as leave in those days. And I knew I could tell that she didn't want to come back and it wasn't a lot of fun out there during that time. So I came back here to England that would be what that was. Well that was the year of the coronation. So that was the year. Yeah. Yeah. Fifty three wasn't so. And they're not going to feel. No I didn't I first of all went into Fleet Street and then I where I opened my own press agency in Fleet Street which was very successful at the beginning and press and general research service. We supplied information to newspapers that was made possible because of your family background in journalism. Possibly. OK. I don't know why I had an idea and that's how it sprung for me. I don't know why I didn't think about going back into movies. Anyhow I didn't and I also I worked on set and I worked for an ill fated news daily newspaper that only lasted a short space of time. But she was kind of fun. That was the daily recorder or vaguely w Britain. And I just wrote the showbiz thing and did the film criticism and all that jazz. And then I have my own business blue I successful and I thought I was a total genius and launched into a great grandiose scheme which went bust and taken me along with it. Well it was a scheme was rather difficult to explain but basically it was supplying newspaper editors television channels radio channels with how much space each news story had been given to each newspaper every day. And from that we were going to develop into a press cutting agency of the air which it was it was too big for us for that. It's because it's done now. I mean somebody has actually done it that did that anyhow. Long story short I went bust and that's when I came back to films and I don't remember quite when that was except and this is the story really about Charlie and and really why Charlie takes the credit for me sitting where I'm sitting now because I wrote it Charlie. I didn't know where I stood with the union or anything like that so I wrote to Charlie and said Yeah. And he wrote back and he said Well yeah it's all right you did all the right things and you lodged your card with the head office and you said if you're coming back Linus you want to come back into sound. He said you never really wanted to because when I had been at the Bush I'd wanted to change to production. But Ted black and Morris Austria wouldn't let me go because he never as I said before said there were no people around then and to have a train to day dubbing mixer. We were a rare beast you could find plenty of assistant directors running around the floor getting the team. So so he said to me Well why don't you want your loved punch get back into production. So I thought well that's a good idea. So I started gaining a third assistant which was very good for my soul. I probably was the worst third assistant there ever was because I had a slightly truculent attitude to the whole job. Anyhow I've served as a third assistant for a while and then I became a second and then I became a first. This was during you know on those gains we'd been close by this time. This was I started off at Wharton and then I went to Danzig as there's a name to conjure with those news Jews that those studios yes that a lot of studios Yeah we had to place moments they were there to when Monty Birmingham. Yes. Yeah. We sort of culturally right. Yes. Johnny was talking about how you got into the business back into the business system for. A second. Well at first I came back. I worked for I think it was called screen audiences are ranked ranks commercial company which was based at Pinewood which made Cinemark commercials mainly gigantic things was really quite a shock because I don't think we ever ever took a shot before lunch. I mean it was unheard of. But then there's that side of the business always had more money than. The entertainment side. So that anyhow. That wasn't very anything. But then I left and went to second two on a television series being made at Wharton called with lone Green starring Lorne Greene and Rupert Davis and Jackie McGowan and it was called sailor of fortune. And it used to be directed by quite eminent directors that became anyhow. Mainly John Gilman. No not Bernie I knew Bernie from the Gainsborough days. But no he didn't. And that's. And on that series that's where I became first at the end. The last one that was in the series that we made was directed by Vernon Sewell and he was making a second feature which I went on with him. And that was with George Maynard's and Vernon's company Cresswell Cresswell productions and I made a picture this close called rogue Sian but Derek Bond and the French actress. Mostly on Vernon shot. You remember then and always used to have always had a yacht. And when we were on boys club most men I'm sure that it was very unpleasant once we got to sea and I was known as no one was a any vermin started. Of course you're not amused. I see on the on the Bridge Number One. You nearly find the continuity girl because. She left a tap on in the cabin. We all lived on the yacht as well the crew lived on the yacht was based on Shoreham. But we went over to LA Harv on it and France came back and I mean it's a beautiful thing but he couldn't understand why we weren't all devoted sailors. You know I remember we pulled up when we got to the Harvey sort of stopped in the middle of the harbour and I said Well you know I'm gonna pull up alongside the dogs and God knows why should we and the boys want to go ashore. Well they wanted no show for us. No but when he stop on his bloody boat and I very reluctantly he pulled up alongside the dogs and they went off and they had a couple of drinks not at me then they weren't anyway pissed at all and they came back and I was sitting on the end of the boat singing next morning no one on the bridge I mean should I just want you to understand one thing I won't tolerate drunken to match flows on my vessel. This was the camera of course you know Vernon was before the war he had a steam yacht which you know kind of job and when the war came he was the boat was impounded by the government or commissioned by the government he was commissioned to be in charge of it and he chugged up and down the English Channel for that entire war in his own yacht set at the Admiralty were paying for it this time on anti anti submarine patrol and I mean he fought a great war against the Admiralty he had one guy posted him absolute loon a real lunatic and any man posted this kind of a vessel had to have had some sort of pre pre-war naval experience merchant navy or whatever so he got hold of this guy and he said I know you must have had some sort of training before you got here and what did you do it. He said Well I was on the Queen Elizabeth so he said Well what did you do on that he said I operated a dishwashing machine. So he Burton sent a cable to the Admiralty saying My Lords re Able Seaman Simon said and then explained what an idiot the man was and he said so I think there's only two courses open to the Lords either you posting from here immediately or b you send me a dishwashing machine so then anyhow that was fun. Then we made some great films coming out now said the next film. That's when I became a production manager on the next film which was with Forrest Tucker called the strange world of Planet X for Eros reductive absolutely the Hymes brothers. So then that's because Lewis used to make many films so all of us make many films with great characters Polish Jewish bakers you know the inherited sort of got got in the film industry because they inherited a cinema through a bad debt and then became into film production. And on that that was a classic sort of film directed by Gilbert Gunn and I. I had to run it for Norman Himes it was all about something happened and all the insects grew big you know. And I ran it fulfill harmony he said to me after he said Well boy this is not the worst bleedin film I've ever seen. But what we need is more bleeding Beatles. I said Well where do we put them. I put them anyway. Doesn't matter. So you see I've really worked on the big stuff. And then then we did. After that we did the battle of the V one which again for eras where I met my friend Dorian Jones. Who is now Dorian Marshall the lady that's working for me now. And that was with Michael Rennie amongst others. Not a bad film could have been a very good film. And then they said right where you're going to direct the next one this is funny how one's life goes is not dead yet we are going to direct the next picture and trade you know what you like when you're young you just accept things that indecision direct and indirect. And at that moment of time George Maynard was approached by the rank organization to produce a film in Hong Kong called ferry to Hong Kong to be directed by Lewis Gilbert. And so he said over this is a great opportunity big big movie. But Lewis had a picture to make first. So that Lewis said to George Will could I go onto that first. So I went and did this film with Lewis called A Cry From the streets with Max by graves and then indeed we went after that and made ferry to Hong Kong. That's this one. Robbing him. Yep. You were in Hong Kong. So we in Hong Kong in Hong Kong they visit very it was a fascinating film because they nobody really made a film in its entirety so far away from base. And I mean really when I look back on it it was only youth and inexperience that allowed me just to land totally on my own in Hong Kong without knowing a soul and set up a motion picture. And we didn't take people with we didn't have all this circus that runs around nowadays. I mean when I think of the size of that film and we had when we had myself I was and John Stoll. Was the art director and we had to convert a vessel built where they had to we'd take it right out of the water and build it into a paddle sea steamer to go to Macao. You'd had to operate as a film studio. He eventually built a house studio because we had to build our own studio down there and all the sets that went in it and the art department consisted of himself and and later on one in which construction manager that was it. And the production department was the same Hong Kong industry. It did it did. And you see when I first started to pitch it negotiate the deal for the studios Well the rights didn't look too bad. You see I thought well that's not too bad at all. And till I found out that that was only for an eight hour shift. Because it. And then I also found that that was only for half the stage because another crew shooting on the other end. So when you added it you had to multiply the figure by three and then double it to get to the real price which was unbelievable. So I said Line up and they all ganged up. They all ganged up together and they were very nice about it they said oh well what do you want to do. John I don't pay the bloody prices so I said in a sort of fit of temper really I'll build one. And that's what we did. I got some reclaimed land from the government. They gave me this land for free. And we built a studio John design. Absolutely. Yeah sure did. Well why was down there 10 months. We had a rank crew in those days if you remember said they all the black people work were 52 weeks a year employees. We had no. We just Dick had to accept the crew that was sent to us which is always a bit tricky. They were very very suspicious of me because I was a freelance production manager but because they ended up having attempt a total ball down there. Who was that. I'll tell you that Bert. That was first assistant Donald Trump was the second assistant Marguerite Green was the production co coordinators now. The cameraman was Otto Heller Arthur and Peter Hunt was the editor. JEREMY This was the first assistant. Now who was the sound man. Oh yes C.C. Stephens who the Chinese used to call Schwinn pi owing to the fact that his eyebrows used to spurt out rather large if I remember C.C. C.C. Stephens and gas for the guy the boom operator got second memories second big mustache. Good crew good crew. Yes. No one now gets a customer as a first assistant. No no no no. Yes it was good but I wasn't this. Yes. And anyhow everybody had a wonderful time because we didn't keep them hotels we gave we gave them all no allowance. And I found that of course Neil shacked up very happily with the Hong Kong language with Hong Kong ladies. And when the child left it was like the Wailing Wall of China. He was left with yes with the actual shooting four months. Yeah. How did the movie do badly. Family it was a difficult it was it was awesome. Orson Welles was in it and he was taken out and about. Awesome. Well I made two pictures with Orson and I had a love hate relationship with Orson. First of all he was the most extraordinary difficult man when he wanted to be which was quite often. I mean I think it was either three or four days before we ever got him on the set. I always remember him arriving in Hong Kong because he's a big bad and he's he's a very and very entertaining man. And he was going on then suddenly he turned round to me and he said ah you've got my noses. I've got his nose. You know I used to be the nose is my nose. You got my god damn nose. Well now. I didn't realize this but Orson practically never ever will used his own nose. I think that means when the vet may have done because it's a very tiny little button nose and he always used to wear a false nose and different noses and what he had done he had sent his nose on ahead of him as indeed he had his wardrobe which he'd already lost his wardrobe. But that is no problem in Hong Kong you can re will drive somebody in that matter of minutes almost but the nose is and of course it is a Sunday. We have to get the postmaster general to open up the post office to see if we can find Orson's noses which we do not find. We go through everywhere. Eventually we found the noses in the Pan American freight shed at Kotak airport. Wonderful. We found the god damn noses. Okay. That's it. So first day of course Orson decides to stay at the hotel which is furthest away. He couldn't go any further away from us unless you went to Peking from where we're shooting and he does. He says he will make up make himself up. So we sent the car up and nothing happens. No signs of hope. Eventually we managed to get the driver in because the Chinese driver didn't speak much English. That he has left his left but he doesn't want to go in the car he's gone by taxi. Where's he gone. We do not know he's gone to where we lost him anyhow. To cut a long story short he was looking for fixated for his nose. Well this we didn't know anyhow that wiped out the whole of the first day and the second day which ended up an assistant director. Because now with the tea we got a problem on our hands. Well he he came back as we had to send him to hospital because I was in the train a part of cold cream at him which cut his head. So he is the assistant director at the hospital. It is that day. Anyhow writing on the third day we now get things really under control with people advising us where he is at every moment in time and he has left the hotel in the car in the car. However we then lose him entirely. And what happened was that the car was going too far so he fires the driver and gets out of the car and he though he has stuck his nose on. But what he hasn't done is put any makeup on it so he is this gigantic man walking around with a big white nose. And he managed to get himself from the Star Ferry and of course this is causing quite a lot of comment amongst the Chinese. You see and he gets off a car loan he's got it in his mind that we aren't callin but he was right about and that but change quite a big place. So he gets out and he keeps on shouting at everybody where movie where movie. I don't. So we get an think and this is how we found him because he attracted this gigantic crowd which eventually a policeman turns up and there's this big man big white nose shouting We're moving. So that was the third day. So that was the beginning of our troubles. That's the bad side. But then of course I did another picture with awesome which was Casino Royale where we're sellers. Of course he was behaving the usual pig way they used to behave and Orson used to say to me who was always absolutely on time. Everybody used to take the cigar out of his mouth and say very unprofessional this Mr. Sellers that's going to jump in. What happened after Hong Kong ferry to Hong Kong a rare ferry to Hong Kong. And that was when I had no now made two pictures with Lewis and then I became his closest associate producer he produced and directed and we made light up the sky together which was with Tommy Steele and Benny Hill and income Michael Dick Emery and we had a lot in that one Johnny Briggs from Coronation Street. And so that was a that was a load of fun. And then I produced the first film I produced on my own straight after that which was a picture called The Wind of Change with Donald Pleasants and Lynne and Johnny Briggs. Now I start getting in contact with Johnny. That was while I was still him. Yes because I went to Hong Kong with an American wife and I came back with a Chinese one. And I say this because I always remember Charlie coming round to our apartment because I have a bet Charlie was he had wanted to do a picture in Hong Kong and you know Charlie was teetotaller. I think he was so scared stiff of pool. My Chinese period that he actually drank there. Yes I remember they said that. Anyhow that was that Charlie. Charlie I can't quite remember we slot slots in but that's how I came in contact with him. And then I did a picture for Charlie in Italy which was I think probably Ray's best and that was Jason and the Argonauts yes. With the skeleton fight which was a brilliant piece of special effects work with Ray right. Yes absolutely. Because you see Ray's system that stock frame system worked on things like skeletons. It's like jerking is actually helped. Well it didn't have when you had some creature like a single tooth saber Tiger or something like that usually once you got into sort of muscle movement his system didn't work. But on Jason I feel and I see he was the one that made the most money. He made it. Oh yes. Yes. Because they could they begin began to decline just the same as my special effects pictures did you know you go through a cycle with them. So that was that was that was with Charlie but I can't quite now because I made several pictures with Lewis in between yes because he went off after light up the sky to make sink the Bismark. And then yes going out some came along at some stage which was another that was a beautiful film. I think that was one of those his best films. Yes that was with Kenny Moore and Daniel GARY Yeah. And that was photographed by Freddy Young was at 1960. And then the other picture I did in the last film I did with Lewis at that time was a picture in Malaya the seven stone with William Holden and Capra scene. There was quite a bit that was a big production that was going on Freddy. Yes. Yes. And Basil Fenton Smith was the sound man I always remember there was a lovely crew and that one that was a lovely lovely lovely film. And whereabouts aren't we in time 1963. Sixty three because I was going to do a pilot driving with him. That's right. Just before you did the feature. You know I can't remember whether it was before or after. That was certainly in the 60s. Yes I think I think it was I I got a feeling that was before a before you went to Malaysia now. Oh certainly. But it was nothing it was before we went to one I think was before Jason just before Jason. Yes I think it was tough film down in math mafia land. Italy. Right. Deep Deep South in Italy. Wonderful occasion. Bloody Murder to work. Murder. Well the conditions were really appalling. I mean we lived in a little tiny village. It was mostly Italian crew with like few English that was Wilkie Cooper lighting Harry Gillam operating Cyril sound colic Sarah colic. That's right. Was it was the sound guy directed by a madman. I'd been an art director and now lives in America. Jesus what the hell was his name. I can see in front of it. Yeah. Anyhow I'm back. Yeah. And we lived in a little little village in terrible conditions. And if we send water down say I'd buy donkeys good that you had to use to get to the locations it never got there because they used to be stolen on the way and you'd get there and fight it. Barbara surfaced. Yes it was really really tough. But good. You know good boys working on that film that you see the whole thing about it is my philosophy. If you look after a crew and you don't cheat you can let you have it back. We all know I can get good crews back there. But if you get a good if you don't do that they're as good as good they're as good as gold. And that's where Charlie always used to run into trouble users always trying to cut something down because when we were in the south of Italy I gave them the same living allowance as though they got it when they were in Rome. Well you couldn't spend it sure you couldn't spend it. Amazing possibility but then Charlie you said well I guess I should get up fixed by living allowance. I said Yeah but you know this is the compensation that puts up with all this shit. Yeah. Charlie will be very pretty worried. Oh totally. Well that of course was his downfall. That was his downfall that eventually became his downfall personally wasn't he wasn't he wasn't a bad chap. Charlie didn't. I mean I liked it I understand. Well listen I'm Jason and that's. I met my present wife through Charlie and when she was when we were in Yugoslavia we didn't actually stay in Yugoslavia but we were on a recce down there. And Dan Jaffe was the director it was the dreaded I don't think I know Don very well. Did. And I met this girl this and the other you know happened and we were gonna press this hotel I looked down on the beach I was with Don and Jeff Drake the art director. When I saw this bird down the beach not to the boys I should cry. And that's the one for me Well little did I know how true that was going to be. And here we are still married magically. I can't afford any more. Anyhow Eddie is the sweetest man out you know used to when we stop any way you send the car back to pick any car up and that. And he was the best man at our wedding and we were really very fond of Charlie. But there's something in him that I don't find it difficult to get on with people isn't it. Well he's always got to spoil himself. I said Why do you always have to model yourself on Harry Cohen. You know for the christ sake he had to think because you know he and his family were all in the Columbia hierarchy. His wife Shelly was related to the Schneiders. She was a Schneider originally married name. So you know Stanley and her Schneider at Columbia. I think he was like part of the family because Harry Cohen and been the bloody months during control. So where were we. Well we will give you a bit mixed up between. Yeah we're sort of alternating between Lewis and. Yeah. Yes. Yes. Well that was Jason and the Argonauts and that was that was tough. And we couldn't really get it on so you know night. But you see it was very difficult for a director on a Harry house and subject because so much of it had to be controlled by Harry and done. Didn't like those. Regina I can understand that very very difficult. And Charlie always used to say about Harry. The trouble is with Harry he doesn't know how to communicate with his fellow human beings. And I think to a certain extent that was true because Harry worked. Oh right. I mean Ray worked to I love him so much that he did find it difficult to choose when he was out in the set. It was difficult because the pilot idea you know it was very hard. It was all set up with that perspective that perspective shooting you remember very well director just had to look at the sketch you know. That's right. Very carefully drawn. He had to take it back to there and tell the actors what to do. Yeah. Yeah. Very limited. I always used to say to Charlie Why didn't you let write direct the film I could never understand that. Sure it would have been better to have somebody else. So after all that I was there all that. Yes then. Then we go after that. Somewhere along the line we. Then yes I. Then I got to associate it with the British lion and I think about that time and I was keen I went to Australia where I was going to make a big motion picture for Burke and Wills which was eventually made but we had a script written by Terence Rattigan which was quite quite a good script. But anyhow through lots and lots of reasons we never made that picture. Then I was gonna make another one with with Roy which we never made but eventually we made. There's a girl in my soup. Yes. Now of course I've skipped over quite a long chunk there because. Yes after the. Oh yes because after the seventh don't in Malaya I went I was that was produced by Charlie Feldman. Charlie fell when was the last of Hollywood. Charlie was the biggest agent I'd ever been in Hollywood he was famous artists. He'd been every big motion picture star's agent that rather was from Monroe. How you name it. He planned. And he then became a producer and I had a long association with Charlie. I made the Malayan picture and then I'm done. What's new pussycat. Charlie and Casino Royale with Charlie three years. Casino Royale seven directors. Studios weren't a part of it at Shepperton wasn't part of Chapter a member of parliament you have Ursula Andress. We did. We had every every motion picture star. I was working down there. Yes it was a nightmare. It was a nightmare to make. How many directors. Seven. Seven. Yes. Because if one went in to lunch and chaperoned at that time one would say oh who's directing who's directing today. Yes. Yeah. You wait and see which directors came in through the door. That's true but we also had Shepperton. We had Pinewood we had MGM Hollywood and Ardmore Ardmore. Yes. Because we shot in Ireland. Because we're supposed to be in Scotland you see. So we went to I'd actually go to yes. And you know why. Because John Houston had a house in it. But I said But John there's no grouse. The whole thing was a grouse utilities no grouse in Ireland well you'll have to import them. And we imported guys into. Yes yes yes. Total nonsensical feature that when you have three weeks spare said I will tell you the stories now when they are it is more than no no. But he ordered wolves one of my favorite books back. It is I mean it is I mean I want to start. You never get me stopped on that. I mean Lewis is always asking me to write the book of Casino Royale the making of Casino Royale hysterical. I need to turn over.

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Yes I've known that for years would be the secret to. John dark side too. Right. Right. Well we're not going to tell you. No I'm sorry. No I'm not going to talk about an astronaut. We'll have to wait for the book. The stories are more amusing than the film are without any doubt. I still I still can't make sense of it and I made it. So for why there were seven directors. Well Charlie wanted to outdo copying Harry you know. That's really what it was about. And of course years later I was having dinner with Captain seen and we were talking about Charlie and of course Charlie she was the big love of Charles's slowly. Well the. And she said to me he he knew he was dying on while we were making Casino which would make kind of sense that he wanted everything had to be bigger and better. I mean when we ran out of the stage based on on the casino set for example and we moved it over. He rang me up and he said it's the stage I'm moving to bigger or smaller. I said it's bigger he said well they make the goddamn casino bigger. I said he won't match his continuity. In fact the continuity might get bigger his money in the bank. And that was the attitude. So off the casino came I was then a battle that guy from Western had built paramount. And bad Owen Stein had been taken by Paramount from United Artists to head the European operations side paramount and they had a sick picture on their hands called Half a Sixpence and. They they asked me to take it over who was starring in that was Tommy Steele. Yeah. And of course Tommy had already worked with and so I that started my my relationship and I had a deal contract with Paramount at that time I had a producer's contract and an executive contract with the company. So I was involved not only in making the film but I was also involved in the day to day running of the paramount operation and where that was based out of London but we were always in aeroplanes because Charlie Blue Dawn who was the head of the paramount in golf and Western believed that if you weren't doing anything unless you were sitting in an aeroplane going somewhere. So we had one used to sort of perpetually be shunted around the world. I would then move my base from London to Rome and we were going to make the musical version of Roman Holiday that Franco's ever really was going to direct. And we spent a lot of money and didn't get very far. And it was sad because the chairman Brothers Dick and Bob Sherman wrote the music for it and the most wonderful music most wonderful song fabulous score. I mean I always remember because we had a piano and a demo and Bluto and said I can't understand that goddamn orchestra. So I remember we flew back from London I don't win coastal musical director you know and done things like West Side Story and God knows what else. And we had a 65 piece orchestra to make a demonstration track for the film. And then I still have it. I still have it at home and of course the music can never be used because Paramount can use it on anything else. And the Germans can't use it. Paramount owns it. Crazy crazy world. So and then that was with Paramount either about three three years then. And but I they they were trying to take me more and more into the sort of overall executive capacity which I really was not interested in and I could be closer to actual. Yes exactly. And anyhow I then made it. I then made my last thing I did for Paramount was I made a comedy short with Michael Bentley in amongst. Well he was the main one in it. Michael Ben team. Oh yes. Which did really well. We did fairly well I called. That was called Bachelor of Arts. I was quite a fun thing which we made for short. How did you manage your show. How did what we could you arrange to get out in those days because that's what they were they used to they went through a vote. Be a member but after the demise of the segment we feature they. They said they used to have a show to get this Shorten said of the second feature and they dated of Neil got very bored with the documentaries and travelogues and because of television and they they wanted comedy. And we made we made the most successful I need to get double Eady in those days. That's right. You know you really had the great thing was to go out with the right. Right. That film didn't matter what yours was that you had to go out with a wife because you've got a lot of it. And we went out with that John Wayne film which he won the Oscar for winning. But he had the black patch over his eye one eye. No not one eye Jack a cameraman what it was. Yeah. And it was. Anyhow it is a big box office success because we wrote on his back. But it was reissued and reissued and reissued and reissued until until the day that they didn't use any more shorts. Yeah I was. It was only a couple of years ago I stopped getting the checks of that library out of. Yes yes I am 50 percent of it. And that was I believe. Yeah. I made more out of that than the money of many of the big features I made. Yes. Yeah. So. So there you are. Then I went to Argo. I went out on my own again. I then took over. I was approached by amicus by Max Rosenberg who said can you do anything to improve the look of our films which looking at them wasn't too difficult. And I made about four that I made about four or five horror horror films at that time for them. And then we made which I produced. So the first of the actor Rice Burroughs pictures that I made which was the land that time forgot who directed them. That was directed by Kevin Costner. Kevin had directed his first film was directed it was a film called Tales from beyond the grave. And I was very very impressed with him. He'd been Dicky Attenborough's editor up until then. And so when we came to land I wanted him to direct it which he did and he did a wonderful job and was the start of a long relationship together. We made a series of. Special effects movies together which was land that time forgot. Okay. Excuse me can I wait for one to come back. What if Federal Express. OK let wait to run cups when you were with Mick Jagger. Yes I do then. So that was that and then we. Then we met Max and I parted and and week continued with with EMI with when Spike Barry's Vikings and Michael Daly were running the company and we had a wonderful relationship and a great deal of fun and wonderful to work for. They said we should given them the script. They say fine go give us the money we never see him again until we had finished which is the way it should been. And anyhow eventually you make of course I it you said Kevin will keep doing these until one doesn't make any money. That that's exactly what happened. And by this time Spielberg was making his gigantic epic special effects films and we pleased to make those on shoestrings total shoestrings. But I mean we in our own way we made quite a mark. I mean we are the first people to use this division cameras for example for special effects I remember getting our demo Charlie Stafford to get them out of the bowels of the Pinewood Studios and have covered with dust and God knows what. And of course everybody uses them nowadays for front projection that back projection anyhow so that and my then my secretary married our star Doug McClure. So she went to live in the United States. And that was Kevin. Kevin went to them. He went to the states as well and he is now very very successful director of the best of television series and is he. Yes he does a lot for Disney. He did great expectations here for Disney. And he just finished a big one in India very successful and now lovely boy and it's funny. But you know he's got into television very difficult in America as you know to move anybody from television to feature. Very difficult. But I mean the money that you make as a television director nowadays with all your residuals is unbelievable. Yeah and then after that. Um. But as you know the business got very difficult for independent producers as you know only too well so too. And I decided to pack up my operation at Pinewood and I moved to Spain. I still write and then I acted as consultants to EMI I went to Japan and I took over several films that got into trouble which wouldn't be fair to mention their names. I know now that no one in Japan. No I came back from Japan was just a one off but I took care of a couple of films in England that I got into trouble. But I didn't have my name on them or anything because I didn't want to get the producer is into more trouble than they already were I. And they and then indeed I used to operate for people down in Spain and several American companies. Then I also went to Florida and Australia on the same quest. At that time or around about that time I got a call from Lewis Gilbert and he said to me that this film which Shirley Valentine Would you like to that I had. So after a break of 25 years were we had turned ourselves full circle. And here we are having just finished shooting in Canada stepping out to be in your local cinemas nowhere spring 1971 stepping out stepping out starring Lise Minnelli singing she sings in it screwed the nicest most wonderful person I've ever worked with darling and so talented is mind boggling. Looking back we always ask this question because sometimes we know what the answer usually is but sometimes it's surprising. Looking back is there anything else you rather would have done than what in fact you eventually became a very well-known producer. No I've enjoyed it absolutely. I think it's anybody in movies. I was a member Scotty Elliot Scott the golden production designer all Spielberg's pictures now. Who said to me you know I don't understand why you're not queuing up at the gates. We're all lucky we get paid well we get looked after well we have our bad patches of course but that makes the good patches even sweeter. We go all around the world. I've been round the world several times and no doubt that you have look at the life of our camera boys lead nowadays are these you know they they don't think anything of it they hop on planes disappear the other side of the world you know they are Dorian's husbands been working in Amsterdam for three months I mean yeah the most incredible life and you know what I think also I said I like film people I don't like civilians very much evil including Orson Welles. Ah yes. Because Orson was wonderful you see Orson was the greatest raconteur that you ever came on and also Orson was the only actor that I met that really understood filmmaking. No he couldn't discipline himself that was true but he understood. I mean when we built the film studio in Hong Kong but Europeans didn't take any notice of it the rest of the cast did for Orson Welles mind was blown and this is incredible. You could talk to him about it. He knew the ins and outs. I was the great one on Casino Royale. We had a rather new young director and they were coming up to lunchtime and Orson's in a wheelchair. The requirement of the script and he says oh Joe we've got Joe can I see you in a second come then Joe. Ben's done he said You'd better turn the coat the cameras over so we can call the quarter. Yeah. Yeah. That was awesome. He ran stood for that and I mean you would have to go out to have dinner with him was one of the delights of the world. I suppose you just couldn't control his own talent in a way that is I think that's true. I mean it was his own worst enemy no question no question ultimately. And it was sad it was sad because he was such made such wonderful films and he was just such a wonderful character and he was so talented but he got to have discipline you with your talent. Yeah he didn't know how to direct it or you going to have a producer of yours. He was a marvelous director at his best he needed a very strong produce yet he couldn't be used but he the. There was nobody strong enough because no. He wouldn't work. I mean that's why I mean you know it's right. I mean made Citizen Kane but he bankrupted RKO in the process. Sure. Yeah yeah. Yeah. Make money. You know what I think Citizen Kane that so has made money because it got such such a fortune. Looking back who would you say the people if they knew that most influence you in your career business. Well I would I was certainly right Charlie Feldman as one of them because he taught me a lot as a producer you know he taught me that you had to have nerves of steel. I think one of the troubles is of course of being a producer that really to be a successful really successful producer. I think you need to be a rich man in your own right because therefore you can make decisions without worrying about what money you're making. But Charlie was an amazing man. He I always remember that saying in Lewis again somebody once said Lewis would you make another picture for Lewis. He said Good God no there's no money on earth that could make me make another picture for Charlie unless of course he spoke to me for five minutes. He could persuade you into anything. And that was it. So he had a great great influence on my life. I suppose probably when you tell me a lot of things that you shouldn't do as well. I mean I also have to say I'm very grateful to Charlie Wheeler for us. But what an interesting man. You were saying about Charles shoulder aside Charles Richman wasn't always aware. Oh no. I always remember when Robert Bork became the president. That came about when we were going through the fights. And I became a delegate to the conference when you and I walked in the doors of the T U C and Charlie was there and he said Fuck me Johnny back in dark. I never thought I'd live to see the day he walked in the T U C building. I asked him if I can call him. But. Yes I mean I have been. You see I think one of the sadnesses of our business is that i c t became a political organization to the detriment of its members. And the fact that nowadays technicians are dying in poverty is to me an indictment against the will of the people like Alan Sacco and his predecessors. And I don't think I explained well because if you go and see the DGA you'll see any American Union who weren't worried about being the friends of Bulgarians which is kind of funny. What we found out about why it was happening here and there's no effective pension scheme in operation that you don't really think that SAP I give a damn for any one of his members. He was merely using it as a vehicle to further his political career. And I think it's a tragedy what's happened I know people like Harry Gillam given a lifetime to our business nothing you know and unless everybody makes sure that nobody can not that he cares. And of course nobody has any time for the union which is very sad because I tell you what's sad about it is needed. And that's what's sad about it. And now this amalgamation is these sort of last straw. It doesn't it doesn't affect me. Yeah no I don't even live. I pay 10 pounds a year to the ACTU. And as an overseas member it doesn't affect me but I think it's a tragedy and I remember the fight and you'd never could go to one union meeting where you can get all assault and battery. B What was his real name. Am I right. But I just really bad as we are. Avon what's an angry judge you know spouting this you know it was a dialect Sure. Trotsky ite team above. And that's it. Why don't you still pick up the the ACTU magazine is still full of left wing rhetoric where you see the whole point about it was that most technicians weren't left wing anyhow he didn't reflect it anyway and even if they were it should have been divorced away from it. You go to see the American you'd see the buildings they've got they say they've invested their money in property. If you belong to the DGA you cannot stop you get free medicine you get free dental SAG the Screen Actors Guild same thing. All of them. And here we are scrabbling around for Heydon is but in fairness John you know the union didn't try very hard to get a. Pension scheme going for the industry could never get the full cooperation of the employers organizations. Well you know they have managed to do a lot of other things. You know why is it that they can do that because you're all spending your time worrying like badgering Gaz about whether we should send soup to Romania or. You know her point of view is you know anybody else after Charlie Wheeler and Charlie Charlie. Okay well I think I think I think that you learn you know you learn something on every picture you make. And she said I think that every film you make you're gonna forget every film that you made before you because each one's got his inbuilt from you. So everybody is teaching you something. I mean you know I it's like I learned a lot of a lot about special effects from people like staff all and from Alan Hume Alan Humes let so many films for me. I've learned a lot of sort of technical matters from them. I mean Lewis has had a very big influence on my life. I mean Lewis really gave me my first break. Also another man that was very supportive to me and that was Carol Reed and Carol was a man that nagged me to becoming my own producer. MARTIN Do you do that. Do you think. Well I think there is a shortage you say. I think there is a shortage of big doozies. We have a problem and there's a problem all over the industry always has been the impresario type producer isn't necessarily the right producer for actually making the film. The talents are totally different. But what we often get is is because somebody is clever at raising some money from the city he launches himself out to make the film. So we we we really and I would say you know who is the person that has a smell for the right property isn't necessarily the man to raise the money or necessarily the man to make the film. So there is an inbuilt problems in that. So if and directors and we're in a director's world nowadays we're in totally in a director's world. But directors have to have somebody behind them for several reasons one to stand away from that show said that it's sad that they're not so close to it so they can see the overall a bit closer a bit better I mean and also to somebody they can trust so that when they say well it's impossible for us to do this they really know it's impossible. But so many times now we see inefficient production. I think one of the troubles is we've attracted the wrong people in the production side. I really do. And that takes me back to what we were saying earlier said that I don't think that they should have that they should have gone a separate route from from the universe. Possibly. What do you think really is the most important things for a producer. I mean you've outlined. Well I mean first of all the festival you can't make a film without two things. One is the money. And the second is the script. So I mean that they were going to have to be right that the leading requirements you know boy I would think with it with the director. Well not always necessarily. I mean scripted sometimes. I mean I couldn't work that way but sometimes I know that great films have come out of bitter confrontation. I mean look at speed yell and lean on Lawrence of Arabia for example you know they certainly didn't have any rapport and it's very very difficult to have any rapport with David. And I mean I've never worked with him but I know plenty of people that have and he is a brilliant director but he he wants to do it his way. And I think on passage to India that where he was confined and are two very good producers on that. Richard Goodwin and John Braeden. And I think he found the constrictions not to his liking. Depends how it works the relationship isn't known because some directors various people don't. There's not a bully. I was an absolute. Others you have to absolutely let them think that they're really doing it exactly what you want and you haven't made any contribution absolutely no. That's what's fascinating in the job. Wouldn't you think. Oh absolutely. Every every everybody and it takes time it takes a whole picture I think to settle down with a new director. For me I mean I mean I've got to that age now I'd rather have you know one that I know. Sure. And I was you know he's lovely. I mean Lewis was just a dream to work with weren't sort of last thing I think as far as I'm concerned there's and unless something else is what you think about the state of the industry now the future if any. Well I don't think there's any industry at the moment and this is the real sad thing about it and what the future of it it's where we go we I mean we shall we shall jog along. We shall jog along being backed up by television. That's the saviour of of of somebodies life here. Now we are in a terrible terrible pickle because we always have had suicidal tendencies mind you. But here we are with the dollar at two to one practically and which deters American investment. The tax situation in England I mean we've been totally skewered by the Inland Revenue deterring American produce. You see when you got to Canada where we've just come full they actually go out of their way to make things then give you anything. I mean there's no tax benefits but they don't skewer you don't say where we're going to penalize you for coming to Canada but that's what they say it's done coming here you're penalized for coming to work here. So people don't come. I mean when we fund the Bond films have gone to Mexico. I mean who can you come to anybody that's more of an Anglophile than Cubby Broccoli. And that was a disaster that he went and you know and then we see the gradual demise of the studios. I mean how long that ballroom wood is going to last for and how long Shepperton is going to last for I should think is probably very very problematical. So I can't say that I feel very optimistic about it. And one of the other things I mean Johnny Harris the operator of a show me I think from the cameraman's Association the other day the list of all the cameramen were working and they're nearly all working overseas. But he can't last turn in because I mean eventually that supply would dry up looking far ahead because there wouldn't be any pictures made here for people to get experience. That's true except of course been some the British technicians are very very good and they're mostly wonderful reputation they sought after him. That's why they get they do get the work overseas. Have you had any experience at all with job fit. Well I was opposed to job fit. I felt job fit like crazy at the beginning. I said it was pretty typical of the Producers Association and the production guilds so production executives guilds Association to give to the unions what they've been trying to do from word go and that was to control everybody coming into the industry. This is one place where we could bring people in that we chose ourselves. And then another is into runners. So I have never had a job fit. I wouldn't have a job fit. I remember having a terrible row with the man that used to run universal was now with Technicolor. Oh. No not that field. I had no sense that they would let a yes in Lewis Lewis a said well if you don't have married the crew won't work for you right. That's all bullshit because I can tell you from the word go that the crews are also opposed to people from film schools. Remember Alan Shepard saying to me what would you say if I said that nobody could come in the ACTU unless they'd been to film school last year. What would you say if I said that all film schools should be closed. You know I mean the people that you and I and said no they can out a film goes I learn it running around you know. And when you get somebody from a film school or on a crew you have them guarantee they're a pain in the arse because nobody teaches them that things starts at the bottom. You know they were going around trying to frame it you know. No I think I think I think all these things and that's what I'm saying. Nobody constant what we about what it should be as an association to promote the well-being and future of of the people you represent. And then I think that is would. And you know even down the silly things that's that stupid agreement which is so complicated because you can read into anything in the ACTU agreement that you like. Why didn't somebody simplify I should years ago. Don't call it tea breaks. Don't call it tea breaks. Quick coffee break. We won't have any trouble with the Americans. You know it's silly bloody things. You know. I've just come back from North America and they have it they call it craft services out there in America you'd never move two inches unless there's a table or eaten with food drink you name it it's there and they still go on saying of course you have the tea breaks don't you. We don't have all this shit you know they should but you stop what I said nobody has stopped work for the day I can remember having me. But isn't it funny you know it still hangs on and that was another thing terrible PR work you have to have good PR work when you run a guild or a union. Very important. And only god was its political thing was a thing. Well I have now expounded and expired. Johnny thank you very much it's my pleasure. My pleasure. Average age about getting noticed interest after so long. Well this person just trust me when people remember you. Yes. I must say he's a bit terrible when you walk into a bar in the studio now and there's not one solo you know. Louis said he went into the British tent it can now be a nice home. Yes. Yes. That's even worse isn't widespread. Sixty years in the business yes. Which is literally what is it 60. Well I'm getting on for 50. Oh yes yes yes yes. Nineteen ninety two I did 50 years. Yeah. Yes. We're gonna have a party then said Joe you'll have to come to the doctor. Yes. We're going to be in Canada Spain. Now why don't we come back. Has it been. Yes I do. Never I'd never there because that's that's where home is. Yes. How's your boy. We're not I'm not.