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Roy Fowler 0:14
The following recording is copyright by the ACTT history project. All rights are reserved this is an interview with Erwin Hillier, very distinguished cameraman. It's taking place at ACTT on the first of November, 1988 the interview is by Roy Fowler and Kevin Goff Yates Erwin. Welcome to ACTT act as it was with which you've had a great many connections. We'll start, if we may, at the beginning and ask you when and where you were born,
Speaker 1 0:51
where I was born, where you were born, born in Berlin, right? Charlotte? Yes, but my father came from Vienna. And mother came from Strasbourg, so it's quite international setup, mother being half French, half German, because Strasbourg always changed hands every two or three times in 100 years, depending who was on the father side, Viennese, which is the musical side with part family, and they lived in Vienna for 400 years. And my great great grandfather came to this country beginning of a century. And actually, my forefathers were mostly conductors. They came to London and conducted, I think, Ferdinand Hillier at 1890 something at Alberto, and then he went to Birmingham. And they all loved this country. They kept saying to their son, look, you better go to England to get your final education, because it's a civilized country, beautiful landscapes and lovely little towns and so on, great traditions and they civilized. What's the exact date of your birth family? 1911 second, September. 1911 right. Still, a youngster, I might say indeed,
Roy Fowler 2:15
did the family consider itself Viennese or German in your childhood, I would say from
Speaker 1 2:25
I'm sort of half and half, because mother having a great French leaning dispatch DARS book being a sort of German city. Originally, they had, they were very pro French. They liked the Germans. I used to call them salpois, not if you understand German, which means pig passions because of their behavior. See, Germans are very abrupt, as you know, and generally tough, very efficient. And the people in Strasbourg, as is Lorena, more
Roy Fowler 2:56
casual, and the Viennese do the
Speaker 1 2:59
wine drinking, wine producing country. And I thought, again, Vietnamese, especially Austen side, they didn't care too much for the Germans, because, again, so arrogant. It's against so character. So that's my sort of background, French, Austen German,
Roy Fowler 3:20
right, where principally was your schooling, your schooling, where principally was your schooling, where you went to school?
Speaker 1 3:30
I'm sorry, I think like, where did you go to school? Oh, I went to school at Berlin. I went to school in two colleges there, which were where we had to learn many languages. Was a very Marvel. School. Most artists were professors and doctors who all insist that you did your job well, and they were very efficient but very tolerant. And I had a very happy childhood there because we were introduced to the arts. Now, when saw operas from age of 10 onwards, went to orchestras, symphony orchestras every Sunday morning there used to be my father used to encourage me. My mother was a great pianist, so I've had great musical contact. Then I love painting, and I started to study painting, and I was hoping to be a painter. And then during the inflation which hit Germany very hard, as you remember, all the money was devalued. Practically overnight, it came to 30 trillion marks to a pound. You know, you My father used to change a pound on a 10 shilling note because it was devalued in the afternoon, for instance. Again. So he lost all his savings overnight. They still taken on something which I wanted to do and had to still study for many years, I decided to turn on something so friend of mine, who was connected with Roger scissors, one of the top designers at the Ufa studios, and by being a great friend of Fritz Lang, he showed my paintings, and he was very impressed with that. So he said to me, now I understand. I mean, you want to be involved in film making. Which department would you like to go into? I was also, at that time, instant photography, so I showed him my photographs and the paintings, and he said, Well, you decide. So I said, Well, maybe my background in design and painting, I like to be on the photography side, because that is, again, a very creative side. So he said to me, now we give you a chance on my next picture, but I must tell you one thing. If you make one mistake, you're off the picture. This is the person again, Erwin Fritz Lang Rogers, Gliese was the designer. He designed a taboo, remember, which was a very great film. And he being a very creative person, really, very highly educated person, and he sort of took me under his wing because he wanted me to have a good start. If that was very sad I couldn't continue. You know, the career I wanted to be and being a painter. So did you have German nationality? Never had German nationality. See, this is something which most people here don't understand is that number one, my father, his my grandfather, became naturalized, 19 on 100 Oh, six in this country. My father was interned in the during the First World War as a British subject in rule Leyden outside Berlin for four and a half years. He was, that time, connected with the cure, not line in Berlin being a representative. So when the war broke out, suddenly, my mother and sister myself returned to London. We lived in Kew Gardens during the First World War. My father had to do his term at four and a half years when he came back, he was offered to join the Allied reparation commission in Berlin because of his great knowledge of Germany and all the other political side and so on. So we were then taken back to Germany. I couldn't speak a word of German, only English. This sounds crazy. We were trying to put me in a school, and the teacher, the headmaster, said I needed at least private less for six months or more, students going to class, and you can't understand what they're talking about. So there, I was told not to speak English at all, the term only German. The catalog is so short. This how the whole thing starts. I caught up after very short time, and went right to the school, which was a top school. They said you had five languages besides German, French, Latin, Greek, and then Esperanto was always the sort of optional language, which I didn't take up. I thought was enough to have four languages to start with. But again, there were happy days. And then I started also music and painting, and my parents always encouraged us, and we had a very, very nice home. And then when the Allied reparation commission sort of dissolved itself, 1929, my father taught me, we should come back to London. But at the same time, I did commute with Berlin because I loved living there. Made so many friends. It was a very happy time. Equally, I liked London because there was something very charming in those days, not like this today, that was, you know, the whole atmosphere, but something which you couldn't believe could have changed not I'm trying to sound sour because I think present day London is not exactly a credit Well, tea and other things. I won't go into the other side. We'd
Roy Fowler 9:58
agree with that. So you were coming to. Young manhood. Then during the famous Weimar period, were you aware of that?
Speaker 1 10:06
Well, you see, at that time, this may surprise you, and many people don't know this, that when the Nazis came into sort of being in Berlin, they ridiculed him, and they said, Never, never will he get very far, because they thought it was a rather coude. They were thugs, mostly, as you know, and at that time, Berlin was what I call a very creative center, great artists, all the great orchestras used to come Tosca Nina, I saw my youth and Milan Scala and all the great conductors like Fort Beng and so on, all appeared in Berlin at that time. Was a very happy background. So I was rather reluctant getting back to London. I had a sort of, you know, you just couldn't remember, during the early part when I was only just four years of age, when I came back to London, and then I left again when I was eight or nine, you see. And as I said, Berlin was a very happy place to live in that time. Maybe it was very lucky. So then you would anyway, let's go back now. You were given a job on a film. Yes, on M. See, M was my very first film, because, as I mentioned earlier, that Fritz Lang kind of liked me personally, but he was very hard. So he gave me some advice. I said, Erwin, one thing you must put into you must have discipline. Double check everything you do. Never take any for granted. Just check it again to make certain is correct. So I can see, maybe I see at the end of the production. I hope we can so. Anyhow, I managed to do that, and there was a very exciting start, I think, because having worked with beginning, the great masters of all filmmakers, I think, I mean, personally, was ruthless and tough. Then again, he was very creative, and he was very anti Nazi. Later on, as you know, were you working directly for Garfield? Prince honor Wagner was the gaichi chairman. Yes. Were you working directly for? Yes, I was. You see, in those days, there are only two people on the camera, the lighting camera man, who operated as well. Then you had your system, which I was had to do the loading and taking care of the camera focusing so on So since then, if it's doubled up, as you know, yes,
Roy Fowler 12:57
the it's what I wanted to ask was, how influenced you had been by the German films of the 20s. Living in Berlin, this was the great era of the German film. Well, I always
Speaker 1 13:10
have been, even up to now, I must say, there was something very exciting, creative about the German filmmakers, if it hadn't been for the talkies, in my opinion, Germany would have been the leading country in the world. It's the language. We beat them. And therefore all the great talents like lubrigs and so on, all emigrated to Hollywood because they knew there was a greater chance to expand. But Ufa, in those days, had some enormous talents, very exciting, I think, perhaps the most talented studio of all time for quality. You see, they were not commercially. They had commercial things like leaner, Hyde and so on the musicals. She was English, you know, actress, and she appeared to many of musicals. But you see, there was a class, I hate to use that word, which was established as in coming back to England, it was like going into a little village, because that time there were very limited companies, and you found that majority of people who worked here came from Germany, Austria, Czechoslovakia, Hungary, Central Europeans, and also some Americans came over, which, again, grew British. We had American cameraman joining the German side later on, corder. The same thing we're
Roy Fowler 14:55
talking now, of the early 30s. Yes, yes, yes. I was thinking of the 20s. In Berlin, the people that you were aware of as you were growing up, and the place of the cinema, that marvelous, fertile period of German production,
Speaker 1 15:12
see, besides Fritz Lang, you had lupic. Well, I thought for sophisticated comedy was a pass master. I mean, Erwin, I don't think has ever been when we maybe you say it very clear in some way, but he was a great, was a genius this way. Then when what's name was made, he again, was another crater person who I met again. So I met all these people in my youth which were very fortunate to me. And my friend happened to be, as I say, related to Robert Gliese. So I had entre to all the creative people. And in those days, as I said, the German and especially were really right on top of everything.
Roy Fowler 16:12
What recollections do you have of those? Those people, Lubitsch and we now
Speaker 1 16:18
Robinson, they had a great quality as human beings too. I mean, they were highly sophisticated human beings, very highly educated people. They spoke their language beautifully. They also spoke other languages, and they also understood music and the arts. You see, you didn't have a sort of rough, ready boys. You know, one has especially from America. I hate to say this in comparison the Hollywood directors I've worked in my lifetime, very few had what I call a cultural background. Forgive me mention about culture I admire and respect this very much, because it's given me great pleasure and appreciation to be taught from an early childhood, the quiet, the main qualities of life and behavior towards other human beings, where the common day, which was marvelous, was no back biting or not in my hours away, of everybody worked together like friends, as a team, helped each other.
Roy Fowler 17:30
Was one conscious? Do you think of it being a particularly fertile period, the Weimar era in Germany? Well, I think so,
Speaker 1 17:38
because you see that time in the in the 20s to the 30s, there was a very relaxed, easy going atmosphere, creative, exciting, all with the great orchestras and musicians came all to Berlin. You had all different seasons which was exciting, and you had also many, many times of people who all came to Berlin, and you'll find out Berlin had an atmosphere of it itself. It's like London has a certain way Berlin, I think was super many ways. It has more creative thinking people. And they were allowed to carry on, you know, encouraged to to to try their their way in the interpretations. They encourage new ideas automatically. I mean, Fritz Lang was always progressive, daring person, you know. And you see, when you have that sort of start, and you have people with tremendous, strong personality and power, you see, given to them by the companies because they respected them, and then everybody had to have a certain discipline. I hate to use that word, which I think is vital in film making, and not to just go on and make a lot of noise and be crude and behave badly, but when I look back, it's the nearest I could think of as the coward appeared in denim. But then again, in my opinion, COTA took on too much. He was a person like always makes one car and trying to make 20 cars the same time. Being a Hungarian, you know, they, they just don't think that way. And I'm very fond of a Hungarian because having an early part of my life, Matt Sultan coward who stayed on our flat in Berlin on many occasions. In those days, it was very hard up, and Alex was the breadwinner of the family, and he supported all the brothers you see. So years later, when I returned to London. And then Zoltan came back, and he telephone, and he said, Erwin, why don't you come and work for us? At that time, I was tired up with Goon British. And then when I left Goon British during that time, he made Henry the eight team member, and various other things, he very small setup. But coward had that gain, that culture, which, and it was she was a very clever businessman, something I never come across again to have both those qualities, because, you know, you had Winston church under contract, and Sir staff at grips, many other important people who all came into his sort of orbit, and he mixed with society, and also he persuaded the Prudential insurance company to put up 60 million pounds to build denim studios. I mean, can you imagine anybody today be able to persuade a big insurance company would do not particularly trust the filmmakers. Maybe you're right, perhaps at times and see you had this old people came to London, and I think they contributed the laid the foundations. I mean, many people made some rather hard remarks about quarter, and I think it's it's cool and so unjust, and because he laid the foundation of becoming international country of film makers, which is important.
Roy Fowler 21:35
Well, we'll talk about quarter at great length, because he was obviously an important figure, I think probably it's true to say he did a great deal of good and a great deal of harm, both. And one of the problems is to differentiate between the two. But let's go back in time, still 2 billion Yes, because I think it's a fascinating period. I'd like to get as much memory as we can of both the individuals and the way of life, and indeed, Ufa itself, the studios who ran the studios, I gather from what you say, that people such as Lang and Wu now and Lubitsch were almost autonomous at the studio. They did. They decide their own projects.
Speaker 1 22:19
Yes, they had a great influence. The management always wanted form from all of them, makers, ideas, what he wanted to do next. And they submitted stories most time. They had that sort of entry to finance and support. And Ufa studios were very modern those days, very big, many stages and situated again, a nice part of Noel barbersburg. And have you ever been to that part? It's delightful, not far away from so and so see what credit used to live and his castle. But you see, it's the talent of the people. I mean, Pops, remember, he was also a great influence in filmmakers, and he had a great variety of people in different fields, all made over as the sort of main metropolis, you might say, are filmmakers, are
Roy Fowler 23:22
we talking of the silent era still, or has there been a switch to sound? You went to work at Noel bubbles book in one year, which on
Speaker 1 23:33
M, C, M, being my very first film you see after I finished. M, Peter, Laura told me he was coming back to to make coming to London to make it firm. But Hitchcock, and he said to me, would I like to come work with him? I said, what can be done? You're marvelous, you see. But then again, he said, Well, don't worry, because I have a word with Hitchcock. And after all, they must have a camera assistant. I don't see why you shouldn't be because I like your face around there. I like your cheerful attitude, and you obviously very good you work. Otherwise, Fritz Lang wouldn't allow you to be with us. So the cut line was on a show when Hitchcock made man knew too much the first one repeated all being the star. So through his recommendation, I got to a studio. I made one film before that called I was a spy, but coward bite because I met Conor white, also in Berlin. He was that type, also very big star. Actually was a bigger star then even Peter Noel
Roy Fowler 24:47
was. We've jumped ahead again before we leave ufer. I think we should milk that as much as possible. Who else did you know at the studio? I. Oh, sure. Well, what do you remember? I can't
Speaker 1 25:04
remember so much because it was only just a few years, you know, I was there, and it was after m, I decided that maybe I should stay in London, all right. And, you know, things were really getting quite exciting. I'd go on British
Roy Fowler 25:20
Was it only m that you worked on? Was the only one and you did what on that? Load magazine, load magazine, load
Speaker 1 25:30
magazines, and looking after camera and focusing right? Ah, yes.
Roy Fowler 25:34
So you are a well rounded camera assistant, very quickly.
Speaker 1 25:38
Oh, you had to see I was taught this will surprise you, in three weeks in a camera room by a mechanic, how to handle equipment, what to do, and I was ready, after three weeks, to go on a big Production like emerald, unless she was they supervised me, and I had to go through test period and in front of a little committee see if I did the job well. And they reported back to Fritz Lang. They say, Well, we think he's going to make it. Then he spoke to me directly, as I mentioned earlier, and that was that three weeks training, that's all I required.
Roy Fowler 26:25
The studio was owned basically by Hugues. Was not, not barbersburg, yes, no, I say it was owned by wasn't it? You can Berg. I forget who was one of the early supporters of Hitler, but I was curious what the mood was within the studio, was it? I was never
Speaker 1 26:43
aware too much of politics. I'll tell you why. Because Berlin, in those days was not had what I call liberal outlook, very much. So the Nazis looked upon with certain models, the ridicule crude people Volker and they said, Never will they come to power. They may accept them in Bavaria, because the Prussians don't forget which is Berlin had they were top dogs of Germany, and they always looked down to the babarians of being little more simple people easygoing, and Pasha always had the officer class were trained. And what made Germany always powerful as a country was the educated officer class. The other ones were the leaders, you see, and they're the ones who gave orders, and they were, I said, highly educated, very cultural people, but very tough, ruthless. You see in this, what made, always, Germany such a great power. And also film business in those days were not influenced, not to my knowledge, of any political leanings. They were very broad minded, Cosmopolitan. Typically had many different nationalities work in studios, but not Germans only. They never said he's a so and so foreigner. They never heard that. Ever they say, Oh, he's from Austria. He's from Czechoslovakia, from Poland. You had it was a marvelous fruit salad, might say, of connections of different races working in great harmony. Yes, you see which is important. This is thing which I loved and been taught, beginning to try and be tolerant to everybody and see everybody has problems, and to be sympathetic and not to be dogmatic and have an open mind about things. Sometimes an only person may have a better idea, and you have yourself. And even the lighting cameraman I worked with, he was, that time, a very brilliant man. He was so brilliant that before a film would start that Fritz Allen Barker, he would go up and shoot some background stuff. And the studio, when they saw his material, they gave him a free hand what to shoot. They changed the scene. They said, that's a good idea. Why do we use the early morning Dawn and and for this and that? And you had the so creative people appreciated by by the management.
Roy Fowler 29:24
So even quite lowly people on the floor were making an input into the films. Oh
Speaker 1 29:29
yes, a great comrade, which I felt was always, not only important, but it gave me strength when in the film business here, mind you, I had many battles when, because I'm too, perhaps too much of a perfectionist, which I it's often grasped against you because you feel very lonely. Many times, people don't like it, and if you're trying to be efficient, many times, it's many people to say. Church, it's true,
Roy Fowler 30:01
is that attitude one that prevailed in billion at that time. In other words, was perfectionism part of the job is that where you learned that
Speaker 1 30:11
attitude, you see people like lupz, lung parks, so they all had qualities of perfection they wanted. They reached for the highest level all the time. Didn't say we did that before. Never mind what we did before. Let's do something new, something exciting. Can
Roy Fowler 30:34
you remember the conditions of work was? Was long a slow worker did films take a long time
Speaker 1 30:40
to be shot. He wanted things moving. He knew, Oh yes, he knew precisely what. No playing games on the floor. It's everything. Every second, people had to do things. So this the search work together, like the search for perfection was not wasteful. Oh no. Your ideas had to come before you, but on the floor, you know what we're trying to do, and do your homework first, I was taught that's always helped me to do my homework in advance, and then I just go in there and just say, no, let me see what you're going to do. You have to have a very definite idea, because so much money is at stake, so many people involved and the actors too, must have a support. They will fall apart in their work that they find as indecision, but they get carried away with the enthusiasm, and that's very vital to have what they call elements which really bring things to the top.
Roy Fowler 31:41
Now you, as a co worker of Lang, did you ever feel you were being exploited in terms of either being underpaid or overworked? Well, I was very
Speaker 1 31:50
long. I knew I was under it's very close inspection, if I made a mistake, would be disgraced. You lose a job, not Patro like this. I had sleep this night. I don't think I slept to the whole picture was always wide, in case the focus was gone wrong and this and this. But I double checked everything as he suggested. And even I never take I was still running out quickly. But tape measure, make sure and ask the teller. Man who was off Main patient, looks shocked. Oh yes. Don't bother me. You can do it. I know that they had more comps for me than I had. Often comes from my certain beginning, but having a so tough task master and wanted to succeed in order to let down my father, who encouraged me, because after losing opportunity, to become a painter and go and do something else. He felt it, maybe this would be a good career for me. And he said, Well, be patient, but bracket it
Roy Fowler 32:54
all right now, what were the hours that you worked at? Usher the hours? Yes, well, they were
Speaker 1 33:01
reasonable hours. They were not like the Quickie days we used to have in England. You know, years ago, there were, there were no shop stewards on the floor, no, no unions, no union those days, no. But there was a certain tolerance of what, how far, you know, you can push people, and everybody was so keen to finish whatever had to be done in day times worked another hour or two later. There was no overtime people, because they loved their work so much, and it got so much satisfaction out of that. And there's always a career ahead of them, if you're assistant, obviously you want to become high on the ladder later.
Roy Fowler 33:46
Well, this job satisfaction is always something that producers have exploited. This was one required to give more than properly. One should have done, I suppose, is what I'm trying to ask. In other words, was there a degree of exploitation, although it was willing, not
Speaker 1 34:06
willing, because you see when you work, but creative people who are to achieve the best quality, and they're not using a hammer to hammer you to do this, they already want you to do your part. There was no pressure anywhere. The only pressure you put yourself against yourself that Can you can you manage this? This is so far advanced at times. How do we do this? Many times, used to ask other people's advice over certain things, and everybody sort of worked as a team, somebody which I very rarely ever known, since it's a great petty because I'm a great believer we should work closely together.
Roy Fowler 34:55
Was one, sorry, my mind's gone What I'm trying to do. Is to get an insight into what is a great, fascinating period, and you are one of, now of the few survivors of that period. How it must have been to work at Ufa in the late 20s, early 30s. Memories of that see
Speaker 1 35:18
Alfred younger, who later on, joined Michael Powell and Pressburger was then established creative art designer, and then years later, when I became a lighting camera man, I worked with him on Canterbury tale. I knew I'm going also when I went to Goon British later on, he was also art director of many films. So Warner, strange that years later, you know, he came to London, and because he was very respected, but a very tough, dedicated professional lacked sense of humor to a certain extent, but he was always under pressure. He put himself under pressure being a professional,
Roy Fowler 36:11
one of the great art directors, tremendous
Speaker 1 36:13
really. It's so creative. He used to go around himself on the set when it was built with a Goon and blow it down corners and make it look aged and you had that eye to it as an alternate. Painter would just make it a very coward way. He would see how sort of place looked as those lived in and now corners near the doorway and things like that, where people's hand marks, but he knew how to age it in such a way, because his designs were always loved. It beautiful designs.
Roy Fowler 36:46
He was the art director of M was he? No,
Speaker 1 36:50
I can't remember the second who the art director was? No, he didn't he was, he was that time working studio. I saw him, and he was a very foreboding, tough looking man, as I said, they Stern, didn't smile. They often, really was 100% German. Dedicated professionals
Roy Fowler 37:15
were intense. Yes, yes. Was pomer at the studio, then
Speaker 1 37:21
Palmer was there. And as you know, his contribution, so is, is again, not enormous, because he also created a style, you know, which I don't think has been. Nobody's copied it, not to my knowledge. So you had, from beginning, Ed Alfred, the greatest talent in the world, in film world, no question about that. Super to Hollywood. Hollywood obviously had its own star with Charlie Chaplin, Mary pickpot and so on. And the German industry. See, especially, I think Fritz Lang's contribution on test, Dr Mabus, I wish I had shopped you and worked with him then. And metropolis, as you know, was another tremendous film. See, this is something which will always be a landmark. Then years later, when I worked in London and here that time, had left Hollywood having many disagreements with the management, who couldn't control him. They thought they could, but they couldn't. And eventually he was eased out later, but he made two or three very interesting films there, and he came to London, and then he was in a decline. And I always remember master Herman, who I worked with on two music because in London had we had lunch with him, and I saw him again. He said, What happened? He used to call me curly friends those days, had lot of curly hair, and that time was I lost my hair. Then I was very young, and he wanted very much to work again in especially in England. Never worked in England, but unfortunately, the subject they had for him didn't suit his style. He declined, which was all a sad but it was, I found it very sad to meet him many years later, on a decline and looking for work. Well, certainly that's a really hardness about the business that
Roy Fowler 39:42
happens to directors, I think, more than to anyone else. Indeed, you only
Speaker 1 39:47
have to look up a list of His credits. I'm going to speak for itself, right? But very
Roy Fowler 39:51
often a director is part of his time, and somehow then the mood passes or changes. Billy. Older is yet another, I think, superb filmmaker in his day, and now seemingly has lost the touch. And it's interesting how that happened. Well,
Speaker 1 40:10
see, when he went to Hollywood, early part he made fury, which was he got the Oscar for that right away with Spencer Tracy, and one or two other films later that then again, he was too tough for Hollywood. Well, it's
Roy Fowler 40:24
a different attitude, because there the producer ruled, whereas, from what I gather you were saying, the director was those the king ping in German
Speaker 1 40:34
in those days, but those two were the leading people, yes, and then our art director, now she was another very important person, but those two on the floor had complete control.
Roy Fowler 40:47
Did Palmer have any influence over laying at all? Did he have any control over lying? I suppose what I mean, well,
Speaker 1 40:54
see, Palmer, again, had his own sort of team of people who all fitted to his thinking, you see, and the mostly creative people, not just good con man who can talk well, people really had great ability. This was the sort of strength of everybody concerned, also amongst the artists. When you think that coward void was a very big star, you know, in Germany and Klein Roger and see the Germans liked films which had a great power on the screen. That's why by Fritz Lang used to be so popular, because even before a film was shown in the So Western in Berlin for his Premier, it was sold out three months ahead, even before the critics even saw it, this was the strength of his public appeal and his quality as A man and creative artist, to have that module. There was no television, of course, opposition, so that made enormous difference. The same time this was exciting to have this so the public had that faith and respect for creative people,
Roy Fowler 42:19
right? Tell us your memories of how Lang worked on what
Speaker 1 42:25
came he was very strict in a survey, typical partial way. I mean, had to be he laid everything out in Sketch form. Do you mean exactly what what you want to do now?
Roy Fowler 42:36
Did he and Anna Wagner decide where the camera was going.
Speaker 1 42:42
Oh yes, they discussed beforehand, the atmosphere, the mood, the sharper light comes through and out of the sharp people walk out of the light. They go into darkness and they come back again. They want a realistic approach with artistic style and the black and white, you see style, which inner lighting technique, which give to German photographer something special. They had the art of mixing arcs and incandescent lighting that gave you visually as well. The chariot had a sort of bluish tone, blue black. They were not what are called gray, black, and it was quality and the lighting because of the the finesse of blending those two systems, incandescent arts. And this is I found fascinating when I became a lighting camera. I followed that too, same as I started Rembrandt was always to me, the inspiration his compositions, the v shape and the lighting V shape. And I followed that in my Oh, my, my composition. Whenever I lined up shots or got my operator to to design things. I followed that style because this is, was the German way of looking things at using creative thinking painters who really the lighting technique of rembrand, for instance, is something speaks for itself. And whenever I started, before I started film, I used to go to many art galleries and look at this painting. I said, Well, I like their meal stuff. Maybe I ought to use that on my next film. And you were sort of encouraged and and what I call it, it whips something up into you to follow the style, because I always used to lean on the traditional creative people, because you can learn so much when you see the. Even in color or black and white. I mean, duel, as you know, was in black and white, one of the greatest German painters. So the German feminist, the in those days, were always trying to create artistically something, not just flat lights all on the place and flat light things. And, you know, even on high key photography, they still had a Marvel style, that it was scintillating, and they had a great knack of how to use glasses to create a certain velvety touch at times and an atmosphere. And you'd be surprised if you make a test, which we normally used to do, and you shoot something without a gauze, then you put a gauze in front of it, depending type of gauze using, the difference is enormous. It makes it look so much so richer in tone value, and makes me rather laugh. But in recent years, people suddenly begin to use gauze out of the fusion as though it was something new. This is one thing I was taught from beginning, the use of gauzes and diffusions. And when I read the cut coland in London on the man, I knew too much. He was the lighting camera man. He was also German, and he had a great talent of mixing, not only in the lighting techniques I mentioned arcs and inkies, but also the gauze. Is how the gauze is made, make use of certain ways and achieve a quality which really is he was an artist and a great technician and highly educated person. You see, I hope you forgive me saying this, the majority of people I was associated with at that time were very highly educated people, cultured people. Weren't crude, vulgar. I valger and the the set a certain standard themselves because they being wonderful human beings. They
Roy Fowler 47:10
also, from what you say, had a background in the arts. They weren't self taught in that respect. They had schooling and awareness of artists
Speaker 1 47:20
all the time. They encouraged us. When they saw the rushes and ending they everybody's enthusiastic. Everybody used to sit in the theater conference. Everybody was packed out,
Roy Fowler 47:31
and they made comments, did they Oh yes,
Speaker 1 47:35
oh yes. They were. They were so excited to see their work meant something. And they were taught many times by the management how important every person was. Doesn't matter if you put a nail in the throne, your your plastering. We admire the great plasterers. And I think there's another profession in the films which often overlooked, but how great we can be, indeed.
Roy Fowler 47:57
Well, all that we're coming to the end of the site. I think I.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Speaker 1 0:01
We're talking about the artistic factors involved. I'd also like, if we can to remember the practicalities, how actually it was to make a film at that point in Germany. Now, the equipment is, is it German, or is it important?
Speaker 2 0:19
Mostly, mostly old German. And see, in Germany, they had, it's mostly German equipment, size lenses, you know, size were the best. The cameras were German cameras. Do you remember the name? And then again, they also use some check cameras called cinephone. The checks were very clever, as you know, in they had also very small but very effective film business with some very talented people. They had a camera called cinephone.
Unknown Speaker 0:52
What was the German camera?
Speaker 2 0:56
I forget now. Gosh, not to worry. I know we use act for because act fell in those days. Was the best battle in Kodak, yes. And the North is where they had laboratories. Never the labors worked for the cameraman. The cameraman worked now for the laboratory. Is that way around
Speaker 1 1:16
now? Was this a studio laboratory? Yes, yes. And you see,
Speaker 2 1:21
therefore the control was there, the standard was available to you, and you made a standard way. You insist, or rather suggest you want things to be developed. The laboratory always make sure they developed in such a way that it suited the lighting term and actually the quality of and in all departments is mostly German design to cranes, to track equipment. Everything was made in Germany, you see in those days. And the only one I remember said is a check camera called silicon. Actually, silicon sold a camera to Goon British years later, when I came to Goon British, and we had many silicon cameras there, which were lighter than the cumbersome cameras, I regret to say this, we never had one decent British cover, even Vincent. I mean, I regret to say this didn't somehow move with the times. I mean very cumbersome equipment and not very reliable at times. You had to be very careful with it. You don't only get one scratch once, but it didn't come you had a timeline going all over. Everything was terrifying as a camera session. Years later, I used to open up the gate and look at it, and I said, only pick up in there. I ordered down and do everything I could and look at the film and see if it's not, you know, where is it coming from? Came from the gate, the design, unfortunately, this is why, later on, the Mitchell cameras, they know and all over the world, became the number one camera because of its reliability and quality and strong, well made, but in Germany, adding was, you might say, home talent, even the sound Tobis Klang firm, I remember that had certain quality. It may have been little bit overloaded, you know, in tone, but it wasn't muffled, as we had in London and in the early parts, this was the difference from a sound point of view. I thought, as we know, sound is so vital element in film making, and makes all the difference to your work. Whenever I used to see our rushes without sound, there's simply something obviously missing when sound came, the whole thing came to life. And if you had a very imaginative sound records which they obviously had, he would get that extra quality, which the film needed, and the voices would come over well. And for music recording, too, was marvelous. I mean, it's see all the elements of creative people, like marvelous orchestras, available conductors and so on. It all gave it from the beginning, the whole ensemble of creative art.
Speaker 1 4:47
Well, do you think we're at an end of what we can remember about the studio,
Speaker 2 4:54
having made that one film there and then, of course, I've visited many times the studio. York, having had friends there and just having lunch with them, or just going around. And they didn't like visitors very much. People come around and not They. They want to be left alone. They see not to have people snooping around the same time, it was a studio which had that sort of great standing power, and if it hadn't been for the talk is coming, and would have stayed on for many, many years,
Unknown Speaker 5:32
which really
Speaker 2 5:35
it collapsed, and yes, it subdued itself to a small market, which is still a small market in German even today.
Speaker 1 5:43
And the great talents left. They either they hadn't got
Speaker 2 5:47
the town. I mean, they talk about bald and Peterson people like that now, and they're not in the same category. It's I worked again in Bavaria studios, very long ago, and it's pleasant, you know, quite efficient, but like, personality is the soulless place, vibrant, you know, as people great quality working there. And that's, it's a, it's, it's a talent which always says things, though,
Speaker 1 6:24
but I think coming back again to Weimar, it seems to have been an attitude and a feeling, a mood that operated, not just at Ufa or in films, but it was happening in literature. It was happening in the theater. It was happening in so many areas of German artistic life, cultural life at that stage. Music was anything,
Speaker 2 6:43
well, she had all the great talent. People, the dry, gosh, opera three, which is was a breast music was shown back. I forget not for second, see the old news, upcoming. People all get an opportunity and support. I always remember when the captain opened the Opera House was a big engine, railway engine, facing the audience and steam coming off, that the impact was absolutely fantastic. There was a modern thinking, modern designs, and the public all appreciated that. You know, see, when you have a public who love the arts, appreciate the arts as and you get the sponsors, it's all fit together. Today, we have no sponsored British film business. Patrick Noel, we have very little. Excuse me, real talent. I hate to say this
Speaker 1 7:45
well before we jump ahead to what's right or wrong with today, let's either continue or wrap up with that particular period. Do you remember what they paid you? By any chance? Do you remember what they paid you? No
Speaker 2 7:58
idea. I know little, yes, may have been a pound a week or something like that, or 30 showings a week. So it's but it was very, very little. You just paid my expenses. It
Speaker 1 8:10
was like serving an apprenticeship exactly right. Now, you mentioned ag for before using ag for stocks. What do you remember about the stocks of the time. Alfred Hitchcock, no, akva, you said the stock. What do you remember of the stock?
Speaker 2 8:28
The stock? Well, act for always had a sort of medalness, and his tones. It when you compare Kodak to akva, it had its richer tones. It wasn't quite so fast in speed, but the tonal range was you might see greater and visually it gave you, especially a lighting caravan, a range he was looking for and which gave him satisfaction and consistency. See, as you know, film stocks vary very much to make batches of so many 1000s of meters, and then there's a new batch coming up. The new next batch often is far different to one you just finished. That's why I learned that when I became a nighting car and I made sure I ordered enough of the same batch, once I tested out the different batches that it will see me right from start to finish. Because they do vary to certain extent. In those days, they vary considerably. So when I had to keep on that too.
Speaker 1 9:42
Tell us about the camera crew on there was how is it organized. There was the lighting camera
Speaker 2 9:49
man who operated the camera right then a session who took care of the camera, did a loading of magazines and a humping of equipment. It. We had a hamper, you know, you know, like a camera clip would help to carry the case and things like that. But I would never leave the camera out of sight, even when I went anywhere. I always had it even my hotel room, around my bed at night time. And used to look at it and make sure I wouldn't have let anybody carry it.
Unknown Speaker 10:26
What sort of blimp did the camera have? Well,
Speaker 2 10:28
they had it was a very complicated blimp like, you know, even when you go back to dairy parts and in London, there were cumbersome limbs, very heavy. Had needed three or four people to lift it up. And also made a very different camp for the operator, because you didn't have sort of the handle thing. It came on later, but you had a friction type head, and you had to be very strong to handle it was no you had to be quite a strong person to such extent. And if you have any fine pounding to be done and things like that, and you look through often, through a person which was not very 100% clear and small and used to fog up to your own breath. And during the shot, you know, and it's very it was very difficult to work like that. See, debris cameras came out, which, as you know, the French design, which are very super powerful, which all in one. And it was reason proof. Now there, the optical system was excellent. They made a great step forward to be well, used quite a lot in Germany through and also in England. And again, it was a more civilized weight. You know, one could carry it or two people carry it. But it's the optical qualities were excellent. You saw clear picture was quite a good, reasonable, good size. When you open up the camera, you can find everything very easily. And you know, there was no problem with very few but say, defect like scratches and things like that, as long as you make sure it's always kept clean and little all put on here and there,
Speaker 1 12:32
as I remember, em, there's quite a lot of camera movement in the film. Is there not? Oh yes, Lang, Lang is
Speaker 2 12:38
he was a person again, who, who loved you make use the camera, not only that you wanted the effects visually, but also the whole impact was always visual for him. And sound, of course. And you know, this is that was his style, and I think he set us a hallmark in dramatic visual presentation. I don't know of any other director, not even Hitchcock, who could would be superior, or even David Lean, who I think is one of the English might say visual masters, Director. It's not only clever with his artist, but he's also very clever from the visual side. That's why whoever, because I worked with David Lean when he was editor and I was camera, says a camp operator, and I was impressed with his sort of mind. But then again, he is, you might say, the nearest to Fritz Lang, except his subjects, were perhaps of more romantic gene nature, except his early films, as you know, they were mostly more romantic, as Fritz Lang was strong in his approach dramatic stories, Siegfried, niebulonge and things like that. You know, it's me topless. I mean, it's a masterpiece. I thought that time as a film.
Speaker 1 14:31
To what extent did the von harbo have an influence on his pictures? She wrote a lot of them. Did she not? Were they a team? Or was she as it were just the writer,
Speaker 2 14:44
I don't think, I think she, she was reasonable. I wouldn't consider her being particularly outstanding. Was
Speaker 1 14:56
Was she in evidence during the filming event?
Speaker 2 15:01
It to certain extent. You know, not, not, not too much, really,
Speaker 1 15:06
but the script was written and not changed during shooting. The script was shot,
Speaker 2 15:10
but Fritz Lang always did his homework beforehand, before any changes he made beforehand. Once you're on the floor, that's it. I mean, maybe if an actor came up with some something this performance, you see, I like that. That's that's changed, that that's very good. He allowed the artist also to be the not telling him what to do. But if this something subconscious, did something, he catch on either way. He was so observant. He was observed with everything, even on the floor when, when lighting camp was lighting a set, anybody standing on doing any standing? He seems to say the first system let him off the set. He's not working. We don't want you know this. There's no coffee clutch here. You know.
Speaker 1 16:01
There is a lot of exterior work on was that studio? Was that location? Well,
Speaker 2 16:07
part, half and half. I mean, often the designs were in such a way that you could they looked real, you know, because having so creative people and also in the lighting to get that sort of shadow effect, so that the Ark's picking off the hardest shadows, the sun effect, things like that. It was a blend of things that I learned enormously from that, because later on, when I worked with Michael Powell and we had to recreate, I knew I'm going many of the Scottish exteriors. I knew that only used one arc to light thing, not two or three. One got it well back enough, and even the lighting level wasn't high enough, I'd make sure we were fine. And it is one thing I learned to start to use as few light sources possible. Everything had to be have mean even the back lighting and all this cut lights from all angles, no good. That's that's that kitsch, you know, as we say. And also, later on, one American caraman Harris, darling. He followed that sort very few lights, six lights, and that's it was ready in quarter. You see, that saves a lot of time and messing around. It's here, another bit there, another Itsy, Bitsy, and this was the beginning part of it, of black or creative filming, but with great simplicity and actually work faster. You haven't got a total answer lunch, see, and for instance, you said the Chief electrician, John Cameron. I want to get on this wall. Long shadows out further back cover the whole wall. Then flag off there. That's it. Now, Chief electrician was caught on very quickly. Set it up properly you're
Unknown Speaker 18:21
talking now.
Speaker 2 18:26
And this, this style, the simplicity with very few light sources and not fitting around having so many different back back lighting from all language. I personally did this light and always trying to avoid.
Speaker 1 18:44
Couple of people before we come to England, I'd like to ask you about Peter Laurie himself. What was, what was he like to work with? What he was on
Speaker 2 18:53
the life of person? He was, again, unsure of himself, like many creative people, but the same time, he had a sort of personality which came over very well. And he's it was the chemistry he possessed himself which made him because the moment he changed, and years later, see when I worked with him on then he followed up on but the man knew too much. Now, after that, he went to Hollywood, and they killed him, they changed him, and they gave him parts which were completely unsuited for. And he knew that. But as he was hard up, he had except that, but in horror, Mister,
Speaker 1 19:42
did he have a habit to support at this time in Germany, or was that later support
Unknown Speaker 19:49
a
Unknown Speaker 19:50
drug addict? A drug habit was
Speaker 2 19:53
not I wasn't aware of that because he was always very strange. I couldn't understand. He had a very odd expressions and his face, everything about him was slightly weird, but they hypnotic. That way, his expressions always were very compelling. He was
Speaker 1 20:17
a very individual actor. Yes, did you know fight in Germany, or was that when you came here? Well, I met
Speaker 2 20:26
him in of our studios, and then I didn't work with him, but I worked with him on on two firms I'm on. I was a spy and juice use,
Unknown Speaker 20:39
right? Well, that comes
Speaker 2 20:43
he used to be so clever about lighting when he got on set with his position, took out a mirror, and he looked at himself in the light he was supposed to be in, and he quietly called over the lighting camera man. He said, please forgive me mention this to you. I had late last night. All these bags are showing Would you mind having the key light little lower, just to make me happy? I was trying to interfere again and to have an artist who happened to know so much about lighting and what light does to you, and having suddenly seeing his bags showing up and the light camera man said, okay, don't worry. You know, it's we take care of it. So he brought it down. They said, how is that? And he said, well, thank you very much. That's much better. I mustn't have so many late nights on the picture. Not so many women, you know, because in one of these off days. But he knew was taught and he studied. As many our actors don't seem to know much about lighting or appreciated nothing, but he knew it. I heard two
Speaker 1 22:08
viewpoints about fight. One is that he was very stupid, and the other is that he was very clever. Which, which do you subscribe? But I
Speaker 2 22:15
wouldn't call he was stupid. He was very conceited, because he was idolized. He was tall, as you know, very striking looking man. Had a very strange voice, and he he was, you Meister, a star. He knew you was a star, and he played on that. But the same time was a very highly, I thought, very intelligent person. I think so. Was he disciplined as an actor when he was working? Oh yes. I mean, he having had these sort of tough upbringing from Germany. They all disciplined, mostly have been especially German actors and even even artists who came for other countries, they they had to accept that. I mean, there were people like Muslim day John, who came to this country, was named, he was married to, I can't just for second remember the name, but they all developed their own stars, which is rather nice you see where it was, Mr. So and So, that's his star. As in Hollywood, a big star would be just themselves. Now I worked with Cagney, and he always paid himself, whatever it was. But brilliant in his same with Gary Cooper. But in Germany, they, they were stars, but the same time they, they started the parts in very great detail. Want to bring out the character much as possible. Of course, the director had a great say in that, and a producer too. So you had pomer in one hand, a great producer, a great director. And you see, you go along the line, and they all were highly educated people who understood art and want to use the arts to create the best possible effect for the story,
Speaker 1 24:36
but they still wanted To communicate widely. They weren't an esoteric bunch talking only to themselves. They did want to reach an audience. Is that fair? Don't didn't want to reach an audience, a wide audience. Yes,
Speaker 2 24:51
of the see the audience were always hypnotized by their talents and the balls the worst. They're very successful films. They. Films of great standing. I mean, you couldn't have anything bigger than metropolis. Suddenly, Premier come, everybody was tearing up and couldn't get in for months and months, the same. But M was a classic, as you know.
Speaker 1 25:13
Do you remember going to Metropolis when first it opened?
Speaker 2 25:17
Well, I remember the film sober, because it was that time it made a great impact on the German audiences, and they were sold and proud. They've had films of that caliber. Hollywood didn't measure up in those days in that sort of field. See, it was a powerful, imaginative film, and they see the pub that was always already made public. See the public of Berlin, particularly, they were they appreciated art. They they loved to see great quality presented them imagination, new ideas. Well, these
Speaker 1 26:03
are who the the middle classes, or also the working classes in Berlin, whom did? What did the audience comprise? Was it a middle class audience, or was it a working class audience as well? Well,
Speaker 2 26:20
you had a mix of everything. The middle class played a big part in in, might say, on the creative films, even then again, I would say they were, they passed it on to certain extent, to everybody. You might say the middle class definitely were the ones who appreciate it more than anything else. And there were a great part of it, because Berlin, in those days, appreciated, always the arts and had great support, and also amongst the ordinary working classes, they would be carried away by seeing something which is different, exciting, and if it was German at time, it even gave him more of a thing. They used to say the Michael had turned out commercial kitsch. Very few firms they considered were up to the top of standard. Erwin,
Speaker 1 27:22
which of the German films from say, Let's go from Caligari all the way up to m which is the film that sticks in your memory most vividly, that impressed you most and maybe influenced you most
Speaker 2 27:36
well tested? Dr babush, I think was very striking. It had a quality about it. Then also being a great Warner lover. I loved the nibelon, and I know it wasn't on the sound like they had to. You had orchestras playing, as you know, in the theater, which was David something, see which, that's what made film going even more acceptable that you had, besides the visual thing, you had the orchestra who accompanied the film, and somehow being close to you, the impact was enhanced. You know, of the visual side,
Speaker 1 28:26
you rate Lang the highest. Who next would you place? Would it be Muna?
Speaker 2 28:32
Who would you put after Lang? Would it be Muna? Muna was a man of great creative staff, as you know, he made, actually, I met Mona in Berlin before he went off to make taboo. And my father stopped me because he was a homosexual. And I think he took a I know he liked you. Heard a lot about me that time, and I was, I didn't realize that I was too young to understand all this thing, but I thought he Rogers please, his art director, but two brilliant people, as you remember, taboo was a very brilliant film which he made out in the it was not the Polynesian, yes, the island of That's right. And he was another one of great standing, because his film, taboo was enormous success, artistically and altogether. So you can see that the people who were all working around the Utah orbit in. Am, well, classical might use the word firm writers, I accept that
Speaker 1 30:10
one you say you knew mer Noel, that you were warned off him by your father. Yes,
Speaker 2 30:14
because I was so disappointed. I wanted so much, because I had so much about him, and also when I met him, and also my friend happened to be his nephew, you see, and he struck me as being vague, not only sensitive person, but charming person. Great charm.
Speaker 1 30:37
This talk of nephews prompts a question, which continually comes out when we talk about technicians in this country in the 30s, to what extent was influence or nepotism applicable in the German film industry? Did one need to know someone to break in?
Speaker 2 30:54
Well, it made it easier put this way, because people don't if you are invited to it to to meet people, introduce them, and you get start talking, and people always tell he sounds very nice, and so on. It all helps right away. But if you come from the outside, it makes it much harder. You have to be established already. But when you're a newcomer, somebody who's trying to get into something which we find exciting. It's nice to to be able to be introduced by somebody.
Speaker 1 31:30
Do you think you ever would have had the opportunity had it not been for that break, that particular I doubt it. You doubt it. I
Speaker 2 31:38
doubt because I think that it's sort of set things down, you see, with Lang and then Peter Laura, then also meeting surgeon coward, who stayed with us in Berlin for long periods, and I then returned to London, which I regret it didn't want to do at that time, because I was very happy there, happy in Berlin. It, it was a marvelous opportunity, which I don't think would have happened, not in a way, because you receive a certain education, you can't beat education and be taught and shown and be in an environment. It's the environment which lifts you. And most people don't get a chance to be in the right environment, or they're very impatient. They want to go to top right away.
Speaker 1 32:41
I mean, well, you didn't do badly. It impresses me enormously that in three weeks, one is the camera assistant. I mean, what's long said
Speaker 2 32:49
to me, don't mess around if you can't in three weeks, find out what to be done. You won't be on the picture.
Speaker 1 32:56
Tell that to the camera section here, and I think they'll look at you with scans in three weeks. But I
Speaker 2 33:02
wasn't camera assistant very long. If you go to my record, I didn't stay very long. I was the youngest camera operator in this country later on, when I started. Well, yes, so that's yet another young camera man too. You know, I even Directed and Photographed when I was in the early 20s.
Speaker 1 33:24
We'll come to that one last person, one name to ask about is perhaps you mentioned him briefly before. Was he an acquaintance? Well,
Speaker 2 33:33
he I never met him, but I was very impressed with this marvelous style. It was another great might see pillar of the past of filmmakers, definitely outstanding. See this were, when you look back at the Ufa era, there was enormous talent there. I don't think even in the MGM highest days, it had quite that sort of talent, because they had, if the sound hadn't come into it would have been still going strong, definitely, and also the big mistake was when see there were many Jewish people who are the great creative filmmakers who were then she had to leave, you know, and even Fritz Lang, he was very anti Nazi, he had to leave. But he wasn't Jewish. He just found the whole thing distasteful and degrading, and this is where it sort of came to a full stop. And then present day said, German films do. It's just nothing comparison. I mean, it's true very well. People saying, Look, Peter Walton Peterson story, it was clever. They had a great start in one hand. But I think you're about the only one film he made which really was impressive.
Unknown Speaker 35:26
It's mainstream filmmaking even so no
Speaker 2 35:29
game. You look at present all the present day directors, very few have that sort of quality. You couldn't compare, but the old masters.
Speaker 1 35:41
Well, that's true everywhere. I'm afraid, right, okay, I think then we're probably coming towards the end of the German period in your life. Peter Laurie wanted you to come work here. So let's, let's take it up from there.
Speaker 2 35:58
Well, you see Peter Laurel. I met torn who was a large entire man who knew me from Berlin. He said, Yes, course, Peter likes to your face on picture, and I know if you can work with Fritz Lang, you'll be fine with us. So I've started there. But before I did that, I did I worked on, I was a spy with Conrad white. He was then, as you told you before, very big star he he was, and Harvard Marsh were, and Conrad and Madeleine Cowell, there were the three big stars of, I was a spy, and that was great fun to work on.
Speaker 1 36:56
Yes, there are two names on the list here. Victor Saville is director, and Charlie
Speaker 2 37:04
again, when I met Charlie, he was a typical Hollywood tough boy, and it was to say, I tell you what to do. That was his way of working tough Hollywood man, but not what I called Creative Cow man was rather flat lighting, and I remember I looked through the camera one shot, and I set the focus. I couldn't get it sharp, so I called I spoke to him privately. I said, Charlie, I hope you do mine. I don't want to take your mind off your lighting. I have a problem. What is it? What is the sun? I said, Well, I can't get it sharp. I put it to focus on. So he said to me, why can't you get a sharp as well? You look through the camera? I said, you have the goals you put in. It's too strong. It's, it's, it's just killing the sharpness. What do you want me to do? If you don't mind, because otherwise I get to sack. You see, he's nearly carrying on because it's, as you can see, it's not sharp. So he reluctantly changed the gauze to very lighter one. But I had the nerve to speak to man who was a tough guy, yeah, was a little youngster. You know, still in my young trousers, but being honest with him, and it made a great impact on him. He liked that. Used to see afterwards on other shots, how he going on the focus, I said, Fine, Charles, thank you. And he had that old smoke a cigar and and he was typically American, but a nice gun behind a tough exterior. So I met the first time American cow man who obviously had different approach, and he was more of a comment. I was surprised. He worked on a film which had more dramatic impact, but that time, gold bridge was trying to get some very important American and German personnel in key position to work for them. Quick question before we get on to that,
Speaker 1 39:46
were they standard causes, or were they homemade causes that people were using? Were they standard causes that one could buy, say, Tiffany, I used to go Harrison to they.
Speaker 2 40:01
Large replaces and get goals. So we said, Let's make up some so I had some wooden frames made up, which we put into the container. And, you know, I used to make sure that gauze was very close to lens, because too far away photograph its strands. But again, I also used to go new ladies department and get a great selection of black, mostly black causes. I prefer them to the white, because the white, unless you happen to have a dream sequence you know, where you wanted to make it more Fauci, but I did, didn't like that. I wanted not to go over the top, you know? I mean, it's but I had these goals made up even years and years later when I worked on panel dish and things like that, when they go for big, closed shops and things like that, often use the double gauze on Noel end, because I had to, when you get a big head like this, you know, and you magnify it 30 times more an enormous big screen. So you have to take care of these things, because the artist must be well photographed, never mind the lighting, but it mustn't go against them, right?
Speaker 1 41:25
Has the bush been rebuilt at this stage, or is it still the old studio? But
Speaker 2 41:30
what I remember it? I don't really done very much. I haven't been there for a long time, but when I went there some years ago, seem to be more the same. You know, they may have soundproofed it a bit better, because it was always that lift taken things up up, you know, but the main studios stages were on the lower floor, and up on top were five and six. I remember they were not very sound proof, and was always difficult to get everything up there. The art department had to get things up. Bits and pieces was a cumbersome layout altogether. Actually, was not ridiculous to have, you know, on top of each other.
Speaker 1 42:15
Well, it came about because the old silent studio, the
Speaker 2 42:20
biggest company in England, and the ousters were in a very worthy family. They sponsored the company, and the their contribution was quite fantastic, I think, because I was very lucky again, having worked on all their big stores, Evergreen, even song, I was
Speaker 1 42:42
like, let's not jump ahead. Balkan is head of the studio? Is he Michael?
Speaker 2 42:50
He was there, and then it was Sam close cameras. Was the student manager, yes, but who is the executive producer? Was
Speaker 1 42:59
the sort of boss there, right? And the ostras are the money people. Oh, yes, officers were the finances. Yes,
Speaker 2 43:08
you put on the payroll. Were you taking on staff or just hard for the picture? I was put on the staff. And we had a very large camel department because we had so many productions going, and every firm had two or three cameras. Even more, and I was a spy for once, we had five cameras on vacation, on memory at belling Garden City, when they produced New Orleans, the Belgium city, very big set, which I think fits Alfred younger designed, I think it was Alfred younger, we always used many cameras. And Victor Savi was then one of top British directors. He always insisted using many cameras to cover the action for continuity and saving time and so on. You used to ride on a horse from camera to camera on location with a bit of a show off. But very tough director, too. Very tough, likable, not to most people. I got on quite well with him, because I was a little bit cheeky those days and not question answered back. Was very confident what I was doing was going to be fine. And he he was. He liked people, had little spirit, and he tried to Coward people. Was a Little he was a really bully because his brother Alec was a production manager, and whoever had a tough time with Alec with Victor, used to take it out of the poor brother, because it was just the opposite, very gentle person. He. Yeah, but I worked with him on, think four or five firms. And I will say he made important firms, you know, and the same time evergreen was his firm was due directed Jesse Matthews became a big star. And he well that time was definitely amongst the leading British directors in that so field.
Speaker 1 45:34
Who is there a very strong German presence at the bush already? This is 1932 or three, so already the Nazis have come to power, and there is the influx of emigre. Yes,
Speaker 2 45:50
there were many who obviously didn't like what was going on in Germany that time. You see you had Max green, green bomb called Max green, later on, Chinese name, winter camp courant. Those three were from Germany. Courant left later to go to Hollywood. Then we had three Americans, Charlie van anger theater, Noel and Glenn McWilliams. There were six found now the British representation were two Benet Noel and Leslie Rosen were two British came around. They were given interesting films, but not the big firms at that time, because they hadn't, sort of, perhaps masked the quite the sort of the range of things the others possessed. And then again, they were very happy to work in that environment, because it all helped them to divert further. You know, because everybody met naturally and they were quite on a friendly basis. There was no, not much back biting or very pleasant studio to work in. Altogether, we had 50 members. Who formed the AC T were mostly calendar pop in some and this may sound strange to you, the beginning of the Act started with Captain Copa thing, or some name like that. So we met in a pop on Goon British and the majority said of members were camera and sound. And then the management told us, if we pursued any further, people be fired. Didn't want any unions the studio. They thought. People weren't happy that it should break some words
Speaker 1 48:03
will will treat act as a separate subject. If you don't mind, we'll go into that in detail. We'll stay with the studio and the pictures now, that first one that you worked on, I was a spy, was, was, what would you call it, a program picture? Was it a big budget picture?
Speaker 2 48:25
It was a big film. It was definitely a big film. See, I follow that up after that with Hitchcock and Peter Noel, and after that
Speaker 1 48:39
with was a juice. Juice, I think economy, by it again, was a long debate, very long budget, schedule, rather of thing was a five month schedule. Well, the pictures are too interesting just to pass over them, so I think we ought to talk about them in detail. Anything special about I was a spy that you remember you, it seems to me, were in a very fortunate position, because you were bilingual. And
Speaker 2 49:09
so it's funny, you should say that, because many of the camera man we had that most of Germany couldn't their English was very bad, so I was in great demand, not only for my work. He could converse, and I used to learn an enormous amount, being interpreted, sometimes for lighting chairman to the chief electrician, and I said, Francis on, sir. So I used to say to him, What is that for? He explained to me quickly, and I caught on a young star, which forced another Czech camera man, who I more as did the light you for him. He said, Oh, you know now, but I do. And so as you just pull together and I show you later on, if it's what's wrong, and later on, he say. About that light is not quite angry, explained so and so on. And having the knowledge of very languages, it was a great asset. So most the other cameras couldn't they only spoke English, of course, and they knew very little German, but they see that made the camera man at ease, even with the micro camera. They liked me, because either they knew I could do the job very well, and I was very honest with them and Frank and wouldn't let them down which they appreciate. I always found that honesty, done in a tactful way, carried me forward a lot, right in the people, right?
Speaker 1 50:54
Okay, I'm curious about Victor Saville as a director, because, as you say, he was very important figure then, and he remained so for quite some time, subsequently, in this country and then in Hollywood,
Speaker 2 51:12
director, he used to work, and he used to go to cinema quite a lot. The next day, come on the floor. And he said, No, have you seen so and so firm? I said, Yes, don't you think that's very clever? Why do we try that? Why do we try that on this scene? We could try that idea. They were doing. We shot it. Only one Titan shot. Why do we have the split level up? We've got enough tracks here, sure. They are operating, they handle it and lighting cow man has no problem that actually happened, yes, and he used to go left, and he used to many times, but they odds, they frank about it. He marred people, and he tried to adapt some of the ideas and make use of them too.
Speaker 1 52:00
So he was easily influenced, but he was also stealing other people's ideas to some extent,
Speaker 2 52:07
but only very rarely. I mean, it didn't happen all the time, but he was big enough to to admire and respect other people say, Well, why don't we get out
Unknown Speaker 52:17
of that? Did you find him an effective director?
Speaker 2 52:21
He was tough man, very tough most of the time. But behind all that toughness, he was a very nice person, so big, you know, put on. He was a great show man. Put it this way, but do you think he was a good director? Well, he was very efficient, very efficient. He got everything going. He got was on schedule, mostly, and and the artists respected him, because he more said and listened to actors to certain extent they say, right, okay, let's do it now, right? Was it different way the contented crew? Was it a happy picture? Oh, yes. I mean, on holiday, they do. They had to be on their toes, because he would watch everybody, anybody standing around and talk in the corner, little gang. He sent his sister legacy. Would you break up that I want people to work if they're not working, that would get off the stage.
Speaker 1 53:18
Was this? Was there a great feeling of job insecurity and.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Roy Fowler 0:10
A long leader on this. Erwin Hillier side three, yes, we ran out of tape there at the end. We were talking about job security or insecurity. You were saying you were gypsy. But in those
Speaker 1 0:22
days it didn't worry me to that extent. It there was a certain security there, because you knew they had a pole gun, which was more than any other company in those days had, and the whole British art and mostly important firms. And also Jack Harwood was a big star, and I worked with him, too on two films and and it was a good cross section of talents there. So all felt there was a job there for him. The only one of reasons I left was that Charlie van Enger, who liked me very much, and he said he was going to make a film at Rock studios, and he thought about time I stepped up, became a camera boy. I said, Well, I would like that very much if you see, well, why don't you come and come to rock studios with me? Right
Roy Fowler 1:13
again, we've jumped Yes, what I meant was working there. Did you feel that one might be paid off at the end of the week for any reason. In other words, there was no feeling of fear in
Speaker 1 1:25
another talk, except you were told, if we belong to kT
Roy Fowler 1:30
spot, yes, Balkan himself was against I only
Speaker 1 1:36
was this was passed on to me for Barker bank, who was the head of the camera department. He said, No, he was just being told by the management that any of you boys join the AC team form the union to be fired at moments later, they don't wish to have a union here. If you're not happy to work here, just get your cards. That's it.
Roy Fowler 2:05
Well, let's, as I say, concentrate on the films for the moment. After I was inspired you went on to The Man Who Knew Too Much, which raises the inevitable questions about Hitchcock.
Speaker 1 2:16
That was, again, Kurt coland. Was then the cameraman, and who, as I said, was a marvelous artist, and I used to fascinate watching him, and he took his time. He was never He wasn't a fast camera, but he just is. The was that perfectionist. And after half an hour, I suddenly saw a different lighting pattern, and I looked through the camera, and I, when I was talking to him, he, you know, I said, cat, why did you change your the big part you had beginner style. It looked fascinated you. Is any particular reason? Because I like to learn from you. They said you would feel better. Oh, yes, I think what you have now is very attractive, but I love the effects you had then. You know, he went through the picture many times doing the same old thing. He never reached the lightest star he had before he started to fiddle. So I thought to myself, if I ever get to luck, have the luck to become a lighting camera man. Once you make, make your design stick to it, do a little polishing here, but don't change the whole thing around. And nobody ever saw his brilliance, because he was not only a great artist, but a great technician. And the way he used the different diffusions and the lighting and a delightful person, cultured person, and how old a man was he at this point in the 30s, I would say, right,
Roy Fowler 3:56
what was his background in Germany? What was his background in Germany.
Speaker 1 4:01
Worked on many important films in Germany. He had a very high standing and what was very sad, years later, he wanted to go to Hollywood. Worked there, and they refused him. What do you call it? Ticket or union card permission, and he had become a still photographer some time to survive, I think, many years later, when she got in. But it was tragic from man who was one of a great artists and a typical American system, because the ASC kept everybody out.
Roy Fowler 4:44
Well, ASC wasn't the union, or is not the Union. The the union is very powerful. Well, yes,
Speaker 1 4:51
right? If you, if you don't belong to ASC, you have no chance that
Roy Fowler 4:57
the IA was the union, and that's the. That's the one. They even kept New York people out. For example, Boris Kaufman was never allowed to work on the West Coast. We
Speaker 1 5:07
knew I had four opportunities to work in Hollywood each time. ESC in those days stopped me. And even when Carl Foreman was making McKenna gold, he said to you, look fellas, you name anybody you like he beat page, we're not putting anybody out of work. Want Erwin Lee Thompson wants Erwin. They know Noel each other. They have great understanding and very couple, nope. And that were those days that the unions ASC particularly, had the power of veto. And I was vetoed four times. And that's fact, it's
Roy Fowler 5:47
Hitchcock. What? What are your memories of Hitchcock? He
Speaker 1 5:50
was great personality. He always done his homework. He had many so sketches. He said, that's the setup. That's that's not that. So we're going to do today, and that's it. And he had complete control of everything. The actors. He didn't have much respect for them generally. I mean, he treated them a certain amount of, I don't say contempt, but indifference at times. Was
Roy Fowler 6:15
that a game on his part, or did he feel that indifference? Well, he
Speaker 1 6:20
didn't. He said, Well, you take an average actor either just because they happen to look just the right for the part. They have any intellect background that words are written for them. They get marvels. Makeup artists and lighting cameramen to photograph, present them beautifully. So another department comes in. They get everything done for them, and the director tell them what to do. He said there's nothing to that. He said, I could take a man on the street, if he's intelligent enough, looks fine, and did not even be taught properly how to hit the marks, things like that. And, you know, he felt they were mostly amateurs, and they were not worthy of achieving financially, as they did enormous, you know, fees and very few artists did he respect. He had a certain they always played games. What he called had them handcuffed. I remember one firm, and he the the he gave them purgative and the tea, whatever was they had to go to laboratory, and they couldn't do it, things like that. He just, to him, has all sarcastic, sadistic side of his nature.
Roy Fowler 7:40
Yes, that comes out, yes, yes. Did he play tricks like that on the crew? No. How did he treat his crew? No, actually,
Speaker 1 7:47
we played a trick on him eventually, because after we came, we addressed it to him on the last shooting on the man knew too much. We were in Garden City. We had a very big set on night location. When we came to a very last setup, he had been drinking quite a lot of wine, had things. And his assistant director, I think was Dickie Beverly, was more directing. It was mostly crowd scenes, and he fell asleep. So when we finished shooting, we all wrapped up very quietly. The lights went off and all everybody vanished. When he woke up, he was the only one on the on the on the upstairs set. Of course he saw the funny side of the body. Did wake up because the chauffeur was standing by the car.
Roy Fowler 8:44
I've never heard that story before. It's a charming one.
Speaker 1 8:47
No, that's perfect. It's and I personally liked because he was not only great professional, but he always had like a big fish. We had a shot for me from from a rostrum, and you look down on him, it's lying in his chair. There's enormous body, you know, because very much overweight, yes,
Roy Fowler 9:12
in later years, he didn't take a great deal of interest actually, in the shooting of the film. It was the preparation that preoccupied him at that stage on this particular film, was he still very much involved on the shoot? Well, he paid attention.
Speaker 1 9:28
He always did his homework. More than anybody else I worked with. He knew exactly what to get for editing point of view. Had edited and have to tell look better. Get another close up. He already had honest on his chart, laid out, sketched out. Did he look through the camera? Well, they looked all right. I mean, when there wasn't like Arthur Young would give it a little finish and marvelous sketches.
Roy Fowler 9:52
No. I mean, did he look through the camera on the set up? Oh, yes,
Speaker 1 9:57
to a certain extent. But he, he, he. It was a great rapport with the camera man, and they worked very close together. And he appreciated quality and energy. He didn't interfere ever. How did he
Roy Fowler 10:10
specify to the cameraman what he wanted with a kind of sign language? Or was it well, greatly verbalized? Well
Speaker 1 10:18
on a whole, he managed to in his style by showing his sketches and say so and so. But he said, Now, if you want to add anything in your own style, please, this is only just to positions for setup and where the art is going to be, but if we can improve on that five, as long as we don't make it, you know, a big production, just to make any adjustment. Jenny, this is the line he wanted followed. Was
Roy Fowler 10:45
he very specific in technical ways? Would he specify a lens? For
Speaker 1 10:50
example? He was very clear. He was really right. Say that the great professional, no doubt about it. You know a lot about photography, camera angles, where you use the camera as a tracking and things like that. But it was discussed beforehand with the lighting camera man, the sort of the sequences. What he had was little out
Roy Fowler 11:13
sketches, right? The film itself. What do you remember about the film? Did it go smoothly? I
Speaker 1 11:22
thought it was a very, very, very good film. It it had its great start. I think it's one of his greatest films. Personally. I think when he made a remake many years later, was not anyone yet to which stuff, but whatever he made in Hollywood later on was not anyone near the Man Who Knew Too Much. I think the Man Who Knew Too Much was perhaps one of his most outstanding ones. Maybe I'm very prejudiced about this, because I think somehow the chemistry was right, casting and so on. Peter, Laura was excellent. And it just, you know, they had this whole personality which made the film more important, and photography looked marvelous. And also directory, he did very well indeed, it there weren't any long walks and lots of stores in between. He wanted things to happen and people be natural and speak up, you know. And he used to listen often with the sound records, just some rehearsals. And he said, I can't understand what you're saying. Could you please? That word is not very clear, but he did a very quiet he didn't do that in front of the unit. He just off hand. Just then, he sat down and waited till things
Roy Fowler 12:53
were ready. Yes, did he use multi camera or just a single camera? No, he
Speaker 1 12:59
didn't bother very much wanted, you know, he let, let the camera man just get on with things. He had great, you know, respect for for him. Secret Goon was then as a great camera man. What
Roy Fowler 13:11
I meant was, did he have just the one camera, or was he using multi camera techniques? But what I remember,
Speaker 1 13:17
they were also second camera available on the floor, in case we ever needed to get another setup. But we always had two cameras. This was this system. And then, if we had any big sets, for instance, then about four or five cameras, right? You know,
Roy Fowler 13:33
even on a Hitchcock film, he was so careful about, oh yes,
Speaker 1 13:37
well, there's any, any of the big crowd scenes, it saves all the time and matching point of view, as long as the lighting would not be affected too much. You always consulted lighting camera, man, if can we use another camera here? And he said, Sure,
Roy Fowler 13:52
how about special effects on that film? What do you remember of those?
Speaker 1 13:56
Well, we had gideor. Was an Italian quite a character. Used to say, I make it a big puff, and he's blew, blew up the whole unit, practically. He was very irresponsible, but lovable person, but dangerous man. And you know, I was having been always interested in special effects, and never quite trusted them, because later on, when I was camera man and we had special effects, I always had on the camera protection for the crew, because I knew that it's always certain guesswork. They always hope it looked good and someone's over did it had a bad take, they suddenly would go over the top and be very dangerous, dangerous thought the artist and the crew, and a very few special facts, people are a work breath where you you, you should always be careful, because I've seen so many accidents, and it's something which you. When you have explosions and things like that, and things missing just the camera and things like that, you can do so much on the camera side by not having to go mad. For instance, one camera and I worked with, we had a shop where two cars going to just going to hit each other, two trains that's going to come on on the opposite lines, and when they reach they're going to just touch each other with the illusion of the camera setup. We pulled away a tripod leg that can go resume in all directions, and then you put in the sound effect of the crash. Next minute, you cut in to a sharp which all rigged up, but the engines lying on the side steam coming out, little tricks like that. You see, this was what I call creative thinking, not to go the hard way. See two trains meeting, touching each other, then going and killing perhaps the whole crew and everybody else, and causing enormous damage. How
Roy Fowler 16:05
about photographic effects? Well,
Speaker 1 16:10
see, I work with the shift and brothers who also German, especially if I get where
Roy Fowler 16:15
did you wear us? Where did you work with them here? So it so it was Eugen, and who was the other brother? It says, I've only heard of Eugen. I didn't realize there were two of them. There were two of them,
Speaker 1 16:29
and they worked. They were they weren't turned during the last war, Powell sent off to Australia. Never saw them again. But they were very clever. They had this invention, which was their patent of using mirrors and scraping out things which would be the real set, and then the mirror would detect, you know, whatever you want to add to it was very clever, and I learned to see having worked with him with an Elstree there Were that time amongst very highly respected special effects people. I mean, different sort of special effects we get now, which is very on a different might see a different field of but you see, I learned from them too, that you can put off the glass in front of the camera, and then paint on that, and paint on something which doesn't exist. And then, if you light it very carefully, you make it blend into the real thing, and give you, give you the illusion of exercise. It's all done on a camera setup. You see right there
Roy Fowler 17:41
and then, but this, but this was not on the Man Who Knew Too Much, who was No, no, no. It was when you mentioned the shift and come later, then at Elstree,
Speaker 1 17:53
yes, I remember the money later, because in Elstree, Hitchcock
Roy Fowler 17:57
did use the shift in process. I'm not sure which film it was, which is the one Kevin, the British Museum
Speaker 1 18:04
that may have been the studio, the black studios, the shift and brothers and the
Roy Fowler 18:16
Yes, right? Well, going through these films one by one, anything more to say on the moon Who Knew Too Much
Speaker 1 18:27
was great fun working with you know, we had a very good leading man who needed to say, gave the film something special. And I think Hitchcock, without any doubt, is perhaps one of the most outstanding directors. He
Roy Fowler 18:46
was perceived to be that was he at the time? Was he perceived to be the great British director at that time? Oh,
Speaker 1 18:53
yes, he was a pop man, as you know, before he became a director, and he was considered as the he and and BECTU Sabo. Those two were amongst two best British directors in that time. And of course, Hitchcock outlasted everybody. His his background still, when he went to Hollywood, he's still made him vague, fine contributions during his lifetime, but he was, I found a very nice person, a great sense of humor, very nice. He liked the camera department, which always pleased. It's always nice would have a director who has affinity with the visual side and is sympathetic. And then many directors who I worked with who were a little jealous, or they rather didn't understand, appreciate Hitchcock nearly published. He learned that to put the thing on the screen, you need the visual side and the visual side the camera man. He had an art training, I suppose, too, which, oh yes, he went through the art director, being a pop man for certain time, and graduating up. It's shows again, a man, you know?
Roy Fowler 20:20
Well, he had been an art director as well, yes, but it's okay. He's ever green the next film to follow
Speaker 1 20:29
I made, actually little friend was directed by the Bernard Noel, whose English was terrible, terrible, how he could ever direct an English language picture, knowing so little English language. Which film is this? Little French, yes, and he Nobel Philip, I think, played a leading part, if I remember. But he was one of the typical, very German type, Director, nice person, but very heavy going.
Roy Fowler 21:10
Is was he not one of these German intellectuals, though, of whom spoken? Oh, yes,
Speaker 1 21:16
he had that. So they had that quality. But he was typically German. He didn't quite appreciate so much the Anglo or American side of things. I don't think he did. Did
Roy Fowler 21:31
that lead to problems, clashes of culture, not really.
Speaker 1 21:35
He was far too grand a person. I mean, he he, he knew how to get the best out of people and getting all that to play that part to give him the results he wants to get.
Roy Fowler 21:49
Was his wife around at that time,
Speaker 1 21:54
she used to be around, I mean, it's she didn't do too much damage. I mean, like he used to listen to her a lot, but I think on a whole, he allowed the situations, when it happened on general rehearsal and during the tapes, to accept what is the best take. Because his English was so limited, he had to rely on other people to say, well, they sounded better on this tape, or the sound was better, the delivery was better. They accept that.
Roy Fowler 22:24
I expect you've read Christopher Isherwood novel, Prater violet. You have not. I was going to ask you if that were a fair picture of the the theater. Well, well worth reading. I think so that comes in, in between the Man Who Knew Too Much and evergreen, does it? Or I may have got
Speaker 1 22:47
the dates, we won't worry too much about dates going back so far. Which one I know that I was inspired was the first one. Then,
Roy Fowler 22:55
then dates and matters of record. So, so that's not too important. You have evergreen with several and then Williams this time, and you are still the the camera assistant,
Speaker 1 23:08
yes, oh, yes. I mean, that was still a great fun to work on, because that game had see this was nice about Goon, but he still do have you went from one steam type of theme to another theme, the variety and the variety of directors and lighting camera, man,
Roy Fowler 23:26
did you? Did you have gaps between pictures or anything?
Speaker 1 23:30
I often used to go straight on one after the other, actually non stop and then off work to two or three in the morning, and early night was seven or eight o'clock in the evening. We barely finished our so called, you know, time is supposed to and,
Roy Fowler 23:48
well, Evergreen now is one of the legendary British films. Oh, yeah, interesting to get your memories of that. Well,
Speaker 1 23:55
see, I found it fascinating because there was Sonny here, and I think because word, besides who, at that time and and Jessie, math, was just beginning to become something important. She was she had this all limited, but I call it acting ability. But she had a very fine looking girl, nice personality, fresh personality. Then Victor sabe helped her quite a lot. And the choreographer forget Noel name. They all worked beautifully together. And it was a very pleasant film to work on, because of all you know, sort of the life was story to be associated with, and the music all the time on the sets. And it had a quality about it. Then it was turned out to be the best British musical at that pier at that time. Why
Roy Fowler 24:48
do you think it turned out so successfully? Was it the fact it had an American score and there was an American camera man involved,
Speaker 1 24:58
or, I think, no big. To serve and the casting. You see, many people don't realize this country has enormous amount of talent amongst artists, even we go our present time, you see some small part, sometimes of some very people, great ability. That may not be the stars of yesterday, but they had quality. And that film happened to engage the quality artists, and also Victor savid. Somehow it seemed to suit him, and he brought the story to life in his direction. I think so. It was, again, a very pleasant film to work on.
Roy Fowler 25:39
It looks quite a large production. It must have been difficult to turn that into the bush. It
Speaker 1 25:45
was really it's quite incredible how we managed to cope with things. And I was nearly killed on our phone. I came back on a set to check the camera, and there was nobody on the stage, and I just pushed the camera little odd position to to the setup we had was going to be a first shot, a tracking shot. And as I pushed the camera away, I had a voice calling out, Erwin. I turned around and moved towards the voice. At that same time, a very big wall full of plaster collapsed and fell just in a place where I stood. If I stood, if I didn't hear the voice, I would have moved. I would have been killed by the plaster so heavy was a terrific bang cause and I looked hard, there's nobody on the stage, nobody. Now something, I'm not superstitious or any supernatural, but they say strange. They should have happened. Somebody calling my name. I'm moving at the same time thing, and nobody's on the set, extra. And that's true. Perhaps it's happened to me two or three time my life that I something happens and at the right time, and you know, it was got a chopper, but that happened on evergreen.
Roy Fowler 27:17
What else about the film? Do you remember? Well,
Speaker 1 27:20
that, except that I always enjoy the dancing and everything else about her. She was a delightful girl. She was very, quite attractive looking girl. And the music itself had a sort of nice toy. I think the style of music was delightful. And also the whole presentation, I thought, was excellent. It was a great credit, I think, to to this country, particularly because I think the very first musical ever made on that sort of scale, you see. And before Goon British came into there were only small little films like British dominion and even bip, except for few things, didn't amount to much as the Balkans did, and austers wanted to be very ambitious Dominions firms of great standing, you see,
Roy Fowler 28:14
well, that, sadly, was their downfall at Goon British, wasn't it that the Balkan was appealing to the American market and didn't do it successfully. Well,
Speaker 1 28:24
I would get to know the Austin's very well. I thought Austin would delight for people. They were so patriotic, they wanted to create so much for this country and and they didn't hear where the talent came from, as long as they taught people here, so the home grown people will next time get the opportunity to show their wings. Did
Roy Fowler 28:42
you know them during this period that you were there?
Speaker 1 28:45
I talked to many times, and I is a door on Austria, particularly. And then his daughter, later on, married Coline, and she was very attractive woman, and he was very handsome looking chap. He was on the camera, yes, yeah, and very nice type of person too. So how
Roy Fowler 29:11
was it that a camera assistant who I would have thought in the hierarchy was fairly lowly, but met the Austrians or was on something, maybe, maybe
Speaker 1 29:24
sometimes people like you, they'd like, maybe for something in one's personality, we should type them. They also knew I'd worked on some very interesting films before, and being very young still, yes and impressed them. See, people always look towards the younger people very much. So I think it's I'm all for this. Personally I was later on my career, I always gave the young youngsters a chance to operate for me, who worked cameras, I promoted many people because I felt it's about time I had comps and they didn't have comps themselves, but I gave them comp. Evidence by making it feel important. And I think I was very lucky then that when they knew I worked on M and so and so picture and others and people think, well, they always like to find out certain things and and, you know, the film, this is quite a small business, in a way. They all know, know about things which happened. And I thought the austers and Balkan at that time, there were enormous credit, and after, I only left them later on because, you know, I wanted to progress. And you know, just life takes you by the scarf your neck sometimes, and I didn't worry about security those days, when you're very young, you don't think about that.
Roy Fowler 30:51
Were you gregarious as a person? Did you enjoy mixing with people at
Speaker 1 30:55
that time? I mean, I found it quite fun meeting people and discussing things. And often just say, did you see so and so film? Everybody was a cinema Goon. We used to go two or three times a week to see some of the good films made in different parts of world. And everybody exchanged ideas and discuss things. And the heads of the studio were not so aloof. You could, you know you in contact with them. You were
Roy Fowler 31:26
on speaking terms with with Balkan where you was approaches.
Speaker 1 31:30
I always remember the years later, when I worked for him, he always remembered me from days ago. I'm British,
Roy Fowler 31:37
that it seems to me, you were different from other people. I've spoken to you because so many people of your generation, I will I ask them what they knew about the front office, and they would say, Well, of course, I was so young and I was in such a junior position, I didn't know what was going on. But here you were talking to the financiers and the studio boss. Well,
Speaker 1 31:58
I used to go many times the student manager and complain that I wasn't given the chance to be a Cam operator. So he said, Well, look, Erwin, you you've only been so few. Is it? I can do it. Did they think you were pushy? No, they did. They liked it. Yes. They said, Well, wait, wait, don't be impatient. Erwin. I said, Well, I would love the opportunity, because I do love to hand camera and compositions. This is something which I understand, appreciate. I see I used to be a painter, and therefore, you know, to compose your shots to the camera would be delight to me, and wouldn't be any problems to me, as long as I care about what the lighting camera man had in mind. And I really worked very closely with lighting cow man. That was a treatable certain respect. The same time, I was very frank. I saw something, and I used to know many times when the cow man lit an artist, he didn't want to put them against a light wall behind me. He wanted against the back of wall. And if the artist didn't hit the marks properly, was one place I would immediately change the possession. I said to it, cow man, and hope you don't mind me changing slightly because it's against the wrong part of the set. You don't you you don't want it against the light war. And appreciated that source. These are little things in passing. And you know, like in life, it depends on your own personality. Maybe that's if you if you love what you're doing, people take to you because they know they like people who are enthusiastic, who not phones, and were frank, but not tactless. You know,
Roy Fowler 33:45
can we have your recollections of the ostras one by one? Who was your favorite? Did you? Is the doll is generally regarded as the brains? Well? Did you? Did you know him? Well?
Speaker 1 33:56
I can't say Maurice auster. Have perhaps was more involved with the filming as it always more in the philanthropy side. And of course, Balkan was the creative person who supervised it, and Phil Sammy was then actually all Jewish team. But the same time, they were all highly educated people, all of them, they spoke very well, beautifully. And the same with First Samuel Hawk, and as you know, a man of great quality. I worked them many years later. To sam you go in south you remember many other films. And you always send me nice letters, which is not very much appreciated. He had a sort of very warm, nice quality as a human being. And one day, I assure him to you the very nice complimented letters and saying was worth all the time, Erwin, because everybody reads about your photography. And I'm telling you, the committee addicted your SAM Goon sounds one example as being, you know, in the not been nominated 14 times, which is not bad. One year was all nominated twice, two, two films came out, and both were nominated for
Roy Fowler 35:16
the American Academy. But the American Academy, yes, yes, yes. That's an astonishing record.
Speaker 1 35:22
So you know, when you talk about Balkan, I mean, they Balkan was perhaps one of the most creative British film producers, I think, of all time. I don't know of any other. I mean, you wouldn't call David Putnam a Balkan ever. I mean, it's, I'm not trying to draw unfair comparisons. Well, you certainly wouldn't right now, no, but even then, even when he made child supply and things like that, it's it's other people who, who can't be supporting, brought out the best and people, because he understood everything so clearly he had a great artistic feeling, great human being, marvelous leader. And he leave people alone. Had his personal charm.
Roy Fowler 36:12
He did leave people alone. Did he because?
Speaker 1 36:15
Well, he never interfered when, see, I didn't want to work on sandy going south as a start, because I heard about suddenly BECTU. MC Kendrick being rather an awkward person, and he already been taken off three times, and he is one of these strange people. And I don't I hate to have to work with direct weathers. It says, always a discord or under the undercurrent. It's not
Roy Fowler 36:39
worth it and indecision, I guess, was the problem with with Kendrick. And when
Speaker 1 36:44
I told Vulcan, I said, Well, I'm Hope you don't mind me saying this, because I love this subject, but I don't think we would. You know, it's life is too short. I don't want to go through this. Said, Why did you haven't met him yet? I arranged a dinner. So I had dinner with him, and met Sandy McKinney first time, because Sandy put on great charm. And, you know, being dinner, having a nice wine, and Michael walk and and he said, Well, Erwin, as you made so many films in Africa, and we love your work so much. Why don't you come and join us? So I said, Yes, but I regret it off, because it was a pretty rough time, not the most unpleasant to be so much intercession. And he incensed it in some directions, very clever one hand, but completely uncontrollable person. Well again,
Roy Fowler 37:45
we'll come we'll come to him in due course. I think the best thing is to treat things chronologically. Otherwise we'll leave things out without intending to. I really was trying to ask you about Michael Balkan at Shepherd's Bush at this stage, what you could see of his operation, how he behaved, but when we operated, we
Speaker 1 38:07
had enormous respect for him. We appreciated the standard he was trying to reach, how much he wants to see the British firm business be something very important in the world, not just for Great Britain alone. And you many people who he had in the setup different departments all respected him, which is important, as you know. And they all loved the challenges which he threw down to could be make some and you only have to go by the record of Goon bridge under his before he started Ealing studios to see he was a forerunner of British firms leaving coward in another theater. But he definitely as a British born person, and the people he had, and he always had the same team, very loyal, and they were loyal to him. So he created a family spirit, and he was always prepared to give people chances, young people, chances, support them. Find the money, don't worry about that. That's his department. And he, he, he had that lovely quality which wish we had it today saddens me. That's what makes me so sad today, when I just even, I don't want to look back and see well, how much is gone.
Roy Fowler 39:36
There's a lot we're missing today, empty shout. Well, that's true of the country. But well, then how about the austras you Morris was the one you seem to have known burst. Is that true? Well, again,
Speaker 1 39:48
there were they, I thought they culture people who obviously were very worthy because to find finance for British firms. You. Have to be a half man to do that, but they had great faith. And are clever people. They were clever in the city too. And therefore there were established business people who just happened to love firms and were very lucky without the austers, because Balkan couldn't have had a program. There wouldn't be any Goon British studios, because I don't think bauci was sort of the money man. He was more the creative man and the man who could those who to pick, perhaps as a director and the team and the organization is here. The organization was always smooth and pleasant. I can't recollect ever anything unpleasant, except we worked all different hours. You know, was the way of doing things in film business, not always intentionally. You see
Roy Fowler 40:54
anything specific about the Oscars or just those gentlemen,
Speaker 1 40:59
what my recollections only. They were responsible for making Goon British, being the most important student at that time, and gains with a course. You mustn't forget Gainsborough, because there was a small little place which we used to go to often small sets was quite a pleasant place. Yes, yes,
Roy Fowler 41:22
that's where Ted black ran the operation. Did you get to know him
Speaker 1 41:26
vaguely? Because I already went over to Gainsborough on when we made uses, they had some offsets, which they put in Bergen's time we were there Islington and a bit of a dump. We thought, you know those days and
Roy Fowler 41:44
well, we're still then at the bush even song directed by Walter Ford is next with Bernie Knowles on camera. Is that something you want to talk about?
Speaker 1 41:56
The even song was very famous English act. She's still alive, charming, beautiful woman, chili,
Roy Fowler 42:08
Bucha. No, no, no.
Unknown Speaker 42:13
I can't remember the leading lady. She's very well known, very famous.
Roy Fowler 42:15
I don't know that film anyhow,
Speaker 1 42:18
it was quite a pleasant film. I didn't, can't remember too much about it. It's same with Jack Harper, who I worked with few times. He was then, as you know, the big musical music star, and he used to rehearse all the time, and worked all hours a night and day with him, because he wouldn't start rehearsing until five o'clock in the afternoon, and he was attending those meetings. We were getting everything ready. And then you start working when everybody was tired. You see, they work until 10 o'clock, 11 or 12 o'clock at night. And you tie out his steps. And you always drive us mad. He had this going around, but he was pleasant, personal, just, you know, irresponsible, lovable genius of his way. And you had him a genius, well, in a way, because he had that sort of light comedy there. And was a great dancer and quite a great comedian. He and his brother Claude Herbert were then amongst the sort of typically English
Roy Fowler 43:22
Claude always played silly asses. Yes, Jack, I think, well, but mind
Speaker 1 43:28
you, Jack coward were very successful for but the public loved him, you see, and he and sister kortnich were, as in our very established team and the very happily married, and they were great credit to the to the professionals. They worked very hard, dedicated, but irresponsible. Mind you, many dedicated people are responsible in some ways. I
Roy Fowler 43:53
think the hours probably had to do with the fact they came from the theater. She had been born into the theater, and Jack went into it quite young, and they are they were used to working at night. They were theater hours, not not films, not studios. For
Speaker 1 44:08
used to be another delightful director, and his wife used to be with him on a set. And he used to play the piano, quite large, Barbara pianist. And in between Bible lighting, going setting up, you heard lovely music, gently played on the piano, beautifully played, and it created also a nice atmosphere. There's always a very happy, easy going atmosphere coming from Victor salad. You know, things a bit more.
Roy Fowler 44:33
I work with Jack along. He was relentless. He never stopped. He
Speaker 1 44:37
worked very hard. People bang on the bend the same time as he was a big star, he had an almost say it was nearly as upsetting him. And Bangor Ford was very delightful director, again, a very charming human being, gentle person, yes, and his wife. All sitting alongside him. And by I mean the words, whenever the sound was played, and there was such a delightful copper and created and said a pleasant atmosphere was always nice to come in every day to be involved in this. Never mind the hours, you know,
Roy Fowler 45:20
after that there is juice. Is the great beach whale of a movie for my money. What do you remember that? Which one juice use? Juice,
Speaker 1 45:32
but juice? Juice, Lotus. His real name was lot. He was a great showman, German, Jewish, very intelligent, and he again had that sort of great entrepreneur style. He was a very brilliant director, because at that time, juices was a very expensive, very big production, actually one of the biggest they had to go on British I think if I remember shooting schedules about 20 weeks, which unheard of normally, eight to 10 weeks was about the maximum. But they allowed that because Coney white and various other I think Fritz kortner, I think was in that too. I can't remember all, but anyhow, they were all very important artists. And being a costume picture, as you know, in the big sets, and it is, was quite a challenge to the studio. And again, Carnival, he, I think he loved the part, you know, he was something which, again, gave his personality great opportunity to present himself as a star. He was a star. Then you
Unknown Speaker 46:54
up and.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Speaker 1 0:03
I'm glad you brought up, because I got things confusing.
Roy Fowler 0:07
Kevin, it's all question
Speaker 2 0:13
I've heard on the on use use gun to cramp with camera. Man, yes, though on the phone credits, his credit is to Bernard Noel, no,
Speaker 1 0:22
I think I got confused there because I knew I had worked with Gunther camp and Goon British, and I worked also Bernard Noel, it's Goon British Bernard Noel was that time with the was named Jack Halbert Singh's because that was his forte. And I'm sure that Gunther Club was one, because I always remember, again, that time his English was so bad, and I had to do a lot of interpreting for him on the floor. And again, he was not a very friendly person to other people. It was very, what I call it was old with himself and closed in and suspicious person didn't trust them. He didn't like directors, and no, it's I had the unpleasant thing situation years later when I worked with him at Denham studios. But Brian Desmond Harris on the night of fire, and he didn't like at all. Brian, whose typical I had a great sense of humor, and he had none. But I would jump the gun now. But
Speaker 2 1:46
he was, he wasn't put in. He used, yes,
Speaker 1 1:50
see, he had that marvelous German star, which I mentioned earlier, of mixing arcs and ink is. And he head down to perfection to look through the camera, to be his operator, which I was later, was a joy to see him, how the lighting looked through the camera, the molding and the roundness he gave the artist, and the rich tones he presented. But when you saw him and talked to him, he was very off hand. Most people didn't want to talk to anybody, and he was, they in his inner surface. They out of his element in being in England, put this way, because he didn't fit in, because his attitude towards people, nothing was unfurn. He was very shy person, and he didn't want to know,
Roy Fowler 2:41
was that something you noticed, not just with him, but with others of the emigre who had been forced out of their homeland and came here, they must have felt quite lost and dislocated things
Speaker 1 2:53
he didn't somehow settle in in This country. You know, it's see many of the people came here who worked here, good, many of them left after a few years. Not that I had. I think they found it wasn't stimulating enough for them, because that time you were very small industry, you know, and they were out for the big fish. They were brought over, and there's something special. And after going British, there wasn't anything very special, until quarter arrived on the scene. When you look through the history of British firms, there's a gap. Even when I went to Ulster state, it was very small stuff, you know, Harry Roy and people like that. And I only made use them because I wanted to progress to become a camera operator. But generally, I would never left Goon British if it hadn't been if I had become a camera operator, which I promised I would, but didn't never. And then Charlie van anger Moon as some ancient to say, Well, look, Erwin, you come with me and you're yours. It's the job. And you know, when you're ambitious and feel confident, you got to go by what you wanted to and that time, I didn't have any responsibility as being very young. And
Roy Fowler 4:16
was there any feeling of resentment? Do you think between the as it were, the natives and these people who'd come in from outside, was there a feeling that their jobs were being taken away from Oh,
Speaker 1 4:29
yes, there had been. There were quite number. I think I'm not sure burning noise did often make some remarks. So many bloody fathers here wanted to give us a chance. And I didn't say anything, obviously, because I thought myself, well, they're bringing in the sort of the knowledge, know, how the glamor and they're very important. They had a marvelous background, as Bernie knows that time only worked on very small little firms. You've got to establish yourself before you start, you know, throwing your work. Wait around. And they never threw their weight on. Lot of people I worked with never said that they were the great geniuses. They're very humble. They felt they often criticized themselves unjustly.
Roy Fowler 5:14
Was foreigners a code word for anti semitism? Well,
Speaker 1 5:18
you know the old saying, bloody foreigners. There was often, you know, yes, most of us, there's only one quarter took over denim, and you really done. And he just said, that's how it's going to be. And they were too terrified, and people were prepared to accept it. It's this. Were working in German Ufa, and coming to England, it's entirely different thing there. There were more respect and tolerance towards foreigners. There were so many foreigners working in Ufa studios, and nobody ever said they're bloody foreigners. But I heard this said many times, especially if they had a rough time in the picture because of their own, perhaps lack of knowledge or efficiency and not be interested. And they were told, you know, that you didn't like it. They didn't send it. See people in Congress had to take criticism, accept it, if it was just most people here resented criticism very much. So biggest mistake I made in my life, my career, that was sometimes a bit too demanding, trying to set for standard, which I knew that if it can't be achieved in a nice way, and I got tough, sometimes I would have had a very bad reputation as being difficult, which I'm not really, I'm waiting. Just love films and like to see it. My upbringing, comedy. What's wrong with that?
Roy Fowler 6:48
It's very difficult on occasions, to get the better out of people, even. But
Speaker 1 6:55
then again, they did eventually. But I know for many years it's was not popular with many people. Incidentally,
Roy Fowler 7:04
where are your parents at this stage? Are they still in your parents? Where are they at this point? They died many years ago. They No, I don't mean now, but I mean during this period when you've they were back in London, and
Speaker 1 7:18
my father, time lost all his savings when the when the cash came in 1929 and also the German when inflation dropped out, all his life savings. Everything gone overnight. I remember when we came back to London, we didn't have enough money even to buy immediately for some furniture. Was sleeping on the floor, and had boxes for tables, you know. And that was my return to London, because was very sad. He He was not ambitious like I was, you know. And he's more easy going having a sort of Viennese feeling, you know about what happens today is fine, but it will come tomorrow. Never mind. And and
Roy Fowler 8:10
I wonder where your drive came from then, since your father was Viennese and your mother was part French, you didn't have that Prussian blood in you.
Speaker 1 8:20
No, no. I tell you what, my mother always say that her brother was like me, who went to America. He was tough as you. You're You're too hard. Erwin, I said, I said, Mother, I want to I want to progress. I love the work I'm doing. I like to get opportunity. You got to be patient. You mustn't be so a dog man, it must be he was same as you. You take after him, because you don't take after all of us. And that was true. I only wish, if I go back, there's a lot to be said for that. I made a very big mistake, being too aiming, perhaps bit too high, because many people don't feel that way about it. And you make unnecessary enemies, really, because not wishing to do that, no, not to
Roy Fowler 9:12
wish to hurt anybody, I can understand that very well, because I think I
Speaker 1 9:15
did this image really, which is not often true. Many people say, hell, we didn't know you, and when you are off the floor, when you're on the floor, everybody was terrified of you. I said, was I only tried to do my job properly, trying to be efficient. I said, Why did electrician stand around him with the hands and pockets all talk about football that again, I'm a job this year, and I used to complain about that to electricians. And I used to say, we call a strike. I said, Well, you call it many strikes you like this is the first concern. I don't need to work in the studio. I get a job. I only have to get on telephone and say I'm available and I get it. I know that. So then they relaxed. The old here is a bloody fun I see. And you see what, it didn't really. Lies. I always been a British subject, and my accidents only do because of switching count is suddenly being very young, for some reason I should have really paid more attention. My wife always complains. She's English. Why I have to have still an accident to see
Roy Fowler 10:19
it's interesting that having been having started out here, yes, that she would then have an
Speaker 1 10:27
essence. You see, environment is always so revival. That's why I said talk about earlier. I was very lucky to be an environment of that competition, that love dedication and quality and respecting people as today, there's a very little respect left. Is there various there's, it's like a bad place, you know? Well,
Roy Fowler 10:50
also it's interesting that the chances are, if you'd started out in the film business in this country, you would have had a different set of standards than those you
Speaker 1 11:00
going and they were, you'd be talking about also, I would never found out this year, had some marvelous education, having worked with young starlich, on whom the goons in in Vienna, life of Mozart, The basal Dean directed another great perfectionist fast they vague, little professional, charming person, and see, I learned a lot from him again, because again, his English was terrible. So again, I had to do the lighting was done. I was interpreted. Now my camera was standing there. I was already lined up, and I was spending half my time with the lighting side, which was very valuable to me, and how he approached things worked things out.
Roy Fowler 11:48
Sorry, who was this? Whom are we talking about? Pun, whom are you talking about?
Unknown Speaker 11:53
That was there was on whom the Gods love. 1930, 36
Roy Fowler 11:57
right? Who is this? Is the lighting camera? Man, yes, young
Speaker 1 11:59
stars. Was the lighting tower. Man, right, and he was a Czech came from Clark,
Roy Fowler 12:05
and you interpreted in German. He spoke German, yes, he
Speaker 1 12:09
spoke German and Czech, of course. And he was a very clever businessman, also, same time, very clever business, lighting, camera. Man, very fast, tremendously fast.
Roy Fowler 12:21
Okay, we're
Unknown Speaker 12:22
still at the bush. Oh, yeah, I'm sorry.
Roy Fowler 12:26
Well, juice, use anything more to say about that it well,
Speaker 1 12:30
juices turn out, I'm not quite sure. Don't think it was such a great success, total
Roy Fowler 12:34
disaster. No, being it was resented immensely in America, yes, because of the way in which it depicted the Jews. Yes,
Speaker 1 12:43
oh yes. They all thought it was anti Jewish. But intention, of course, the director being Jewish himself. I mean lotha and
Roy Fowler 12:54
lotha model bound, well, the Austrians, all of them. No, it was completely misunderstood. Here or there, one or the other takes.
Speaker 1 13:04
You see, as you know, you can't win all the time. I mean, most of them ago were financially viable. They were successful, and you've got one little bad, you know, egg in the baskets room. What do you do
Roy Fowler 13:24
the theater? Film is next on your list, little friend with Courant on camera. Nova
Speaker 1 13:31
ferbin was then a young English actress who was considered to have a future, and she was given the leading part in that. And I think it was, can't remember too much about it, because by time the film came out, I was already on location some words, and didn't always read to the viewers. And you know, you're out of
Roy Fowler 13:55
Well, we talked about feartel has Is there anything more to say about him? He doesn't really ever seem to have realized his potential.
Speaker 1 14:08
See, many of the people from Germany, especially directors. See Fitz Lange worked in London, would have been terrific. Mind you, he would have made people would have hated him so much he may have come to so many strikes smile in those days there weren't or unions. But see, most of the German directors were not great success because I think they had limited knowledge of the language and how to present it to to the actors and be the judge on where the dialog should be played. You see, even when he clear points, when he went to Hollywood, he didn't his office, he didn't quite make it same time he made a great film for COTA. He. But the German directors, see, the camera man, were more successful, I would say, and and the and the production design, it's like Alfred younger. I mean, Alfred younger, in my opinion, was one of the greatest, no doubt about I love working with him. We had a great rapport. He didn't like Michael Powell, by the way, not at all really. Oh, well, actually, Michael Powell had his feelings terribly, because he always built some lovely sets. And he was interviewed on the radio about the sets which the interviewer saw, and he thought, he said, Mr. Youngest has the terrific and Michael Powell, I think it stinks, just like that. And younger heard that. I was actually heartbroken, and when I went to his office, talked about something, he said he was not going to work for Michael Powell again, he says terrible, what he said about and he worked so hard and used to always design everything in advance, in such a way that he gave the director so many sketches to look at, beautiful sketches. And he presented to to Michael Powell for this case, and he went through it correctly, not right, Alfred. Better think about again. Alfred went back to his office, and he called me, and I came to his office and he told me what happened. I said, don't take any bloody notice. You put him in again in a week's time the same ones. Put them in different orders, that's what so he put him in Week is for later. Michael, pass pace, that up. You see what I mean? Alfred. Alfred said, Yes, I do understand. I do see what you mean. Which picture was that? That was one of the archers, I think on I knew I'm going, but it's so shattering for somebody who works so hard and such a marvelous artist to be slapped on the ground like that. Terrible. But anyway, that's
Roy Fowler 17:17
the iron Duke. The
Speaker 1 17:19
Iron Duke was great fun because George Alice was, then, as you know, the very big star of sophistication. He looked like Bertrand Russell, or something, something like that later, and marvelous, very polished. His diction,
Roy Fowler 17:39
an actor of the old school, I think, can be described as
Speaker 1 17:43
a tremendous personality and Well, I think one couldn't help admiring people who happen to have qualities like that. See those people we just discussed always had something we don't get that in present day, I mean evening away even Lance Olivier. I mean, wanted to go into any great deals world his work, Lance Olivia, is marvelous on Shakespeare. You take him away from Shakespeare, and his record is not outstanding. In my opinion, I work with Lance Olivier, and
Roy Fowler 18:19
it's not really a discussion for the team, but I don't necessarily agree with that. But anyway, but
Speaker 1 18:28
see coming to this gentleman who George Allis, had enormous qualities, I thought he's not only typically English. His diction was beautiful. It's also easy and charming, and it's something very, very special. I mean, Hollywood, he, as you know, he, he was, he worked over there for some time, but it really struck me as a very civilized human being. I like civilized people. I
Roy Fowler 19:04
gather Yes, yes, anything other than Alice on that picture that you wanted
Speaker 1 19:11
to mind, I think was a bit he just went through it. I got on very well with him. Decide being a very tough man, and I thought at least he never let down the flag. You know, Victor Savill always delivered somehow I was very sad. Eventually, on he sort of left it out of things, because I thought he had certain qualities, which far superior to many other British directors that time. You know, it's been old. Robert came and people like that had a different sort of approach to things, but he taxed some very big films, big subjects, and he handled them very well. And he brought. Talking to not only on budget, on schedule. You know, he was there all the time when the loud playing around, standing on there, having chats about football and things like that. Well,
Roy Fowler 20:10
as you know, he became a very important producer at MGM, oh yes, in the States, yes, you're right.
Speaker 1 20:17
I mean, I know you had to be tough to get things done this year, the trouble, but he
Roy Fowler 20:24
seems to have operated maybe better as a producer than as a director. Well, again,
Speaker 1 20:29
he knew how to handle artists. You see, he had that respect, and he was a man who could educational background, and he was highly sophisticated many respects. He just happened to be a tough cookie at times, and he felt, you know, being a director, you had to accept yourself.
Roy Fowler 20:54
You've got a couple more pictures here. They're both Jack Colbert films, both directed by Walter Ford Jack Ahoy, alias Bulldog Jack. They were, I suppose, really program pictures. There were
Speaker 1 21:10
pleasant films to work on, because, as I mentioned with Jack Harper, always comedy and like that, and his dancing, which always naturally was the most important him and his depths. You know, he rehearsed for hours on end, but the whole atmosphere was so nice and pleasant. And it's nice to go on a set where you there is a nice atmosphere, not phony. But he was a genuine artist, and had qualities and rather strange, Long John, and he had us and Richard stroke, yes, his wife, since the courts, it could have been a better team together. You know, it's there they were, really, if ever marriage has been nicely mode. It those two together that time were tremendous. I like Jack because he is always pleasant. Never mind the hours we used to work. It's
Roy Fowler 22:09
with a norm. Were they not on that subject? Just before we move on to your elevation to operator, a few points about Chavez Bush working there. Do you have any idea what you were paid?
Speaker 1 22:25
You know I the only time I know is when I became camera operator. Then I received 15 pounds a week, which was considered the
Roy Fowler 22:33
highest salary. This is in 35 was it?
Speaker 1 22:38
Yes? 30 3536 3536 I think I may have started with 10 or 12 pounds, but I became amongst the hope, forgive me, saying, one of the top camp operators in this country at that time there was Bobby kartica, myself, Cecile Cooney and Jack Hillier. The four of us were considered the top bracket operators, and think we all earned more 15 pounds a week, which was,
Roy Fowler 23:10
would that be a flat sum, or would you then, in addition, get overtime, no
Speaker 1 23:14
overtime, no overtime. There had no overtime. Our union that time, unfortunately, were there, but it didn't function.
Roy Fowler 23:22
15 pounds for unlimited hours. In effect, fine. 15 pounds a week for unlimited hours until you dropped.
Speaker 1 23:29
I mean, I worked the longest time ever with Michael Powell on the film coward, the man behind the Iron Mask for MGM made at Rock studios. Yes. 36 hours, non stop, the micro power. We weren't in studio. Then we worked on a night location, day location, and went back in studio again, 36 hours, and everybody worked 36 hours. That
Roy Fowler 23:58
was an average week at Shepherd's Bush. Wasn't there such a thing in terms of hours? Did you ever keep count?
Speaker 1 24:04
No, never. Actually on hold. The early nights were seven, eight in the evening, and normally worked at 1012, BECTU. They didn't work beyond that time. But normally start starting a date, yes, on about seven, eight o'clock, you know, because starting at eight in the morning, yes, eight, 830 I remember,
Roy Fowler 24:29
and then through to about the same time in the evening. So it's a 12 hour day, six days a week.
Unknown Speaker 24:33
Yes, more or less,
Roy Fowler 24:36
yes, 72 hours. I mean, have a guess at what they paid you for that. Would it have been five pounds? Six pounds might
Speaker 1 24:45
have been like that. I know the salaries were very, not very high, but then again, those days, five pounds a week was worth having a 40 pounds a week or more. Did you run a car? Yes. I. I won a car and a raffle Essex car, and I don't think I could afford the petrol, so I gave it up. I sold it afterwards, but that was a Goon British. So
Roy Fowler 25:12
you were you couldn't afford to operate at that time. Did you live alone at that stage?
Speaker 1 25:20
I lived my parents at that time, and then, when I worked at ELS, stayed in in some of the not a boarding house. Would you call it? Took a room if it was especially long. Hours was pointless. Traveling all the way back to London. You know when you had to be up again a few hours and in those days, as I said, The hours were very, very they harbor, really, I'm
Roy Fowler 25:55
going to stop rolling when
Speaker 2 25:57
you went on to become camera operator. Erwin, yes, you went to rock studios. Yes. Can you tell me something about rock studios? Well,
Speaker 1 26:05
that time, Jay Blattner was the studio manager. Joe lock was the the Managing Director, I think a core man called ours was the financial person who financed the production studio. And again, it was a very small place. You know, when you had to shoot a long shot, you had to open the doors and go into the car for the shop to shoot through the opening of the doors to get a long shot. And Charlie van, anger was the one who went over there, who I worked with earlier. And we went to Morocco on occasion. And when we came back, he then we finished with Leslie fuller. Was that time so called English comedian star like you know, many of us comedians are now. And then Harry Roy came into this picture. He was that time a very big band leader, quite interesting. And so I was promote, I used to go and complain, you know, I wanted not only to operate, but later on, get opportunity and lighting, you know. And I used to go and see Blattner. Was nice of your manager. And I said, you're back again? I said, Yes, because I know, you know I can handle the operating side, but when is the chance for lighting? Please do give me opportunity, because I've learned so much from various people. But he said, you only been a short time operator. Say, I don't need to be all that time operator, because to me, the lighting side is the one golem site. When you got plenty time to work, you're still very young. I said, That's not the point, Jane. But I said, Believe it like that. I said, when the opportunity does come along, so it came along so short, I welcome back to Powell on that man behind the mask frame Jam, which was shot in three weeks, he and I had quite a lot little battles here and there, not unpleasant battles. But, you know, I stood I heard they were such a bully, and I don't like bullies, so I stood up to him, but I introduced many interesting camera setups, and I worked mostly from very low camera position, which he loved and come along as though short. When the film finished, we became quite friendly in many respects, and he appreciate very much all the hard work and contribution made to very interesting camera setups and and so on. He said to me, why do you always get the camera in a low position? What is your view? I said, because when you sit in the theater and you look up the screen, you're always looking up because it's not down below. I like the camera to the Powell, the audience's point of view. I said, Can't be done every setup, but I find it's more interesting having lower camera setup than having our level shots. Which are, I think they boring Muslim and he found the very interesting many other directors I worked Alfred always liked the idea of having lower camera setups, you know. So you got on very well with power eventually, yes, but we had our little sort of, you know, I used to say, What about songs? I said, Well, Mickey, that's not a good setup. Do a job. Wait. And he walked away and asked. Now, I said to her, with him, I just got him with it, because I knew he was not right just to follow him. That's because he happened to be a bully and just be intimidated, because he had that way with him. But other people fight with death, mostly artists. Was terrified of him.
Speaker 2 29:51
You also worked at rock with Edmund Gordon. Yes, he must have been very interesting. He was
Speaker 1 29:58
a charming American. So homely type. They experienced marvels in comedy and musicals. He had that sort of player, because he was that sort of person himself, the life of person, and very professional, of course. And he only came to England because that time he left a picture in Hollywood. He had a robber, the producer, and he was on a rebound, so he was glad to get some work done, and hopefully they be a good enough picture for him to re establish himself back in Hollywood. So I went to them a couple of times, and as I said, it was a very pleasant atmosphere, but Harry Roy, at that time established as a very, important. Did you
Speaker 2 30:41
find him an imaginative, imaginative director? Did you find Edmund Goon an imaginative director? I
Speaker 1 30:47
think more, but I call more professional. Yeah. See, the Americas, as you know, wept to certain formulas. They've been brought up that way. And you always get enough cuts for for the editor seemed cut his cut, close up. Use that and use that. You all were shot a bit here and there to cover himself. This is the Hollywood training, yes.
Speaker 2 31:11
And then then, let me ask you about the photographers you worked with there. You worked with Ernest Palmer, didn't you? Yes?
Speaker 1 31:17
Erwin Palmer was another English camera man who happened to have very, I thought, great ability, but it was too English in this way. He never pushed himself enough. He would light very quickly, very few light sources, which I liked. Delightful person is loved playing dance in lunch hour and have this pint beer. And he was the delightful person, very much more talented many people getting credit for
Speaker 2 31:51
so would you have learned something from well to certain,
Speaker 1 31:54
only a very little about that. He was fast. People like people to be fast. They always have been. Because he always Benedict behind schedule. You always blame the camera man says, Too bloody slow. You see, sometimes it was true, but Erwin was so fast. The director used to say, I going off the set. Don't go. I'd be ready in five minutes. Can't you hang it out a bit? No, why should I? So? I say, I wonder. Why I want to be relieved. I say, Okay, well, I hold out for few minutes, but don't be too long. And he was very fast, very professional and a nice personality. It's
Speaker 2 32:28
interesting you say was under appreciated, because the films he did, there are really very much, you know, Formula films. I mean, you know, the Harry Roy film and the Olympic honeymoon,
Speaker 1 32:40
yeah. See, the reason was he mixed with the boys a lot darts with the electrical crew and so on. He didn't bother too much about mixing the higher echelon, which is important as well being in the response position, you should also, I know you should look down at your fellow workers the same time. He ignored that side for some reason. He said, they like my workshop, if that I go some words. And he was very popular, because such a nice, charming person and fast, it looked nice
Roy Fowler 33:14
if I convert in. There seems to have been an attitude here that the British is, in a way, are not taking or the English, whichever, are not taking the pick making pictures seriously that we have the so called foreigners coming both from the continent and from America, and they are much more what we call, in quotes, professionals about film making, whereas the English regarded rather as a joke or a game, or you
Speaker 1 33:43
don't need to pass the time. You know what it is. It's question of personality. The others have more personality. Even Benny Noel spoke very word. He was a nice chap, but he was Marvel to the target type of person, you know, quiet, but Americans, tough, the Germans tough in a way, but not unpleasant culture. But they are deceived, because they hate to say this word, higher, perhaps educated, came from, perhaps from a better background, as many of the British side didn't necessarily come from that so comparison wise, and that's why people take no notice of somebody's more cultured who knows more about art as somebody who's good on a dark game in a pub.
Roy Fowler 34:30
Well, self confidence may be part of it, but it also seems to me that there is, on the one hand, a bad case of the British amateurism, and on the other hand, a degree of professionalism, exactly that came about, partly through education, cultural awareness, but professional training.
Speaker 1 34:51
See, the competition was always very high in Germany and in America. Over here, there was always a survival kit all the time, except for the Goon British Air. Yeah, yeah, there's always been nice being Wonder Boys, and that's fine up to a point, but to get the respect and standing you got to have personality with that. And mostly else had personality. It's so difficult to explain that. It's so true. Unfortunately,
Speaker 2 35:26
it's also the esthetic and philosophical education that people had on Europe and the empirical practical almost. You know, sort of attitudes that were developed always developed in Britain. Is that contrast as well, which fits in with
Roy Fowler 35:42
what you're both saying. Is into it too. I'm sure
Unknown Speaker 35:45
that's right.
Speaker 1 35:46
See, the British film is the would never been anything at all, in my opinion, unless, if Cora hadn't, hadn't been, I don't care what people say, he bought international appreciation of this country's qualities and talents. He definitely brought that up. No British producer except Balton at that time was the only one. Otherwise, I don't know anybody else over here who happened to see we had great directs like coward and so on. But see, you still need the people in charge to be the guiding hands, Erwin tolberg and so on. And the promise, and you know, and see, this is the talent has always been here, acting talent, no question, writing, great writers and technicians Now, second to none, this country has learned enormously over the years and years, but it all started at that time, and That's true, you only have to examine the facts, and you can't go about that. You know,
Speaker 2 37:08
Erwin this time was sort of up to the war, really, in 1939 It was big change in your career, really, yes,
Speaker 1 37:13
but I tell you why, because I was also, I've met some very interesting people, like Paul Rother, and I was always interested in documentaries, you know, it's always had a great love. And also working with a very small team, you know, people. And then I met some very interesting people, like Ralph keen Powell. I even worked for the shell market Film Unit, for certain. But I met some day, July, for people, Arthur Elton, who was then the head of it, and they were all trying to, and I was trying to, now, to study more on my own, more the lighting side, photography, getting more experience, and something which I felt I never had a chance to progress on documentaries. And yet, that's a very British thing to be doing, isn't it? Yes, it is. But same time, so many things about this country which I've heard, but delightful, which I love very much, and the countryside, the pubs and so on, and it all gave me later on, I practiced photography by going on the document is watching the lighting. I used to go on location when it was still very dark, watching the sun and trying to find out the best time of day where it looked the best. I made notes of that. Then before we started, I had done my homework and studied that side to make the lighting work for us and get the most effective way present
Speaker 2 38:41
on the screen. Was it the war that brought this opportunity?
Speaker 1 38:45
Yes, also the war time. I was involved too, with Sydney bucks, with Minister information. I made films by the different service departments, the Navy, Army. I always remember one army captain or what he was. He was a very high up for us, something, something lean up a general, and we discussed the film idea, and he said, No, Erwin, can you think of anything, because we have so many casualties through mines, booby taps to show all the recruits what can happen, what they should look out for. Can you think Nadia will make it not that technical, but just interesting, wise, and you'll be directing it and floating up yet. Now, city box arranged that for me, I was under contact to him for a short time. Yes, so I said to the army, left and turn whatever he was. I said, Why don't we have this? We go through the. Technical thing you feel, which should be shown. And then at the very last shot, we see a man going to laboratory. And just before he starts to pull the chain, we cut outside, and there's a big explosion. Everything goes up. We had marvelous idea of him. So this is the way, you know. So we made this film which had technical thing, but also had a human side. So the recruits would find it quite amusing and quite terrified. And at that time, it's very true, there were enormous casualties, because the Germans are very crafty, where they arranged all their booby traps everywhere. So I went to not only army, also with the Navy. I was going up in the Navy, on on the what do you call the MTBS? That's right, empty bees, the very fast boats were armed, and they used to meet the E boats on German side and the channel somewhere. And then they knew each other, because they always had to listen in. And I was taken along so I can listen in, not only photograph, what was going on the orders were given. So I could tell the captain. Immediately, I said, well, so and so that three of them come in this so and so stern. So there's actually a fact we used to go through a mist and suddenly out of there, where the E Board suddenly a big blast of fire and we disappear and turn this way. And it was fascinating how each side knew each other, the captains of each boat knew the name of the other one. And it was sort of coward, what are called, very appreciative atmosphere, despite them being trying to kill each other, the chivalry. Yes, it was, and I found it fascinating. So good Navy also went on aircraft carriers and destroyers and submarines, and I later on worked with Michael Powell and silver fleet, where we used the Dutch submarine.
Speaker 2 41:53
But how many films would you say? Did you make a lot of films for the MOI
Speaker 1 41:57
Oh, yes, a hell of a lot. I can't remember them all, because it was so many films which happened to show you, know, engagements and on the sea, for instance, submarine side, which I found fascinating, quite unnerving, sometimes, because
Speaker 2 42:16
would you have been on war service when you were doing this? Were you paid army rates or no? No, I
Speaker 1 42:21
was called up two or three times. I think I gave you a copy of my calling up papers. Eventually, they deferred. I was deferred for spent on a special what's it called special
Roy Fowler 42:37
reserved occupation? That's
Speaker 1 42:38
a reserved occupation because being a specialist now, they found that was very useful, working also on documentaries for the different service departments and propaganda firms same time. And then also with the feature site, also Michael Powell, a Pressburger, I think I showed you a letter of that. He also got the format for me. So eventually, then I applied to join the RAF. I went to five medicals because when the Germans bombed London, I was so disgusted which I was brought up, that the women and children should never be the main target is the men facing the men, not just to take it out of defenseless people. And I was so horrified, because that time, I married my wife, Helen, she's English, and so I applied. I went through all tough medicals five times and passed them all. So eventually, a friend of mine, who happened to be working for the Air Ministry heard that I was so upset I couldn't become a part because I so much felt I could be useful, and I was still on the right age. So he found out. The reason was that, as I was born in Germany, I was never a German subject, that under German law, you looked upon as a traitor. And if I had been captured by the Germans, I would have been shot as being a traitor, which, even there's no proof of that, because I will have I had German nationality, whether my father have German nationality. How can they be when he was in turn for four and a half years during the First World War? Pretty subject, you know, and so that was the main thing. So naturally, I was glad to hear at least the truth. But they said, if you go in the army, it's different. The RAF at that time happened to doing quite a lot of damage and bombing many parts of Germany and and there was that they great hatred now, apparently coming from the German side. When he done so much damage to London,
Unknown Speaker 44:47
were your languages of any use in the war?
Speaker 1 44:51
Well, I constantly a lot on the German side. I was very useful once or twice, because when I was very young, I spoke a. Hook dodge, which is like the this hype called Hide German, like the officer speak, and you think the officer class in German, or well educated people. You don't get Cockneys. You normally get this over the elite is comes from the aristocratic background, or the the so called, which are many, quite a number, large number of them coming from they, they excellent background, especially in in pasture, which now East Germany, because that is where the where the boys, the younger, the Junker outfit, and they would have it was a very close thing, as you know, last time, they nearly made it, and it was only thanks to the marvelous spirit this country had, which I regret to say today you wouldn't recognize this. You're in the same country, and the act of everybody was terrific. I admired and respected it, and that's why I said, would have liked to be in an ally here, but,
Unknown Speaker 46:10
but you still played a fairly active part during the war, didn't you?
Speaker 1 46:13
Oh, yes. I mean, as I said, I can't discuss the thing which I ought never for intelligence, because one day you never can tell, because this man wrote various things which I thought was terrible. You know, this my story. I think it's disgusting to give away the background of things. I can tell you this that there were many, so many marvelous people here who stopped the Germans, and it was only the traitors in Holland when Arnheim became a failure because the Dutchman, his name is Cornelius, he he betrayed. I was surprised Richard Attenborough didn't mention that in his film, because if arnam had been a success, it could have been the Germans hadn't been warned in advance, the war would have been shortened by one year. The whole political map of Europe would have been entirely different. The Russians were still behind, the Elbe well behind, and also Czechoslovakia would have been in our orbit, Hungary, the whole of Germany, and that traitor and I heard about the.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Roy Fowler 0:12
Erwin, Hillier, side five.
Speaker 1 0:17
Erwin, could you just say a little bit more about this, about your period during the war you were talking about Arnhem, yes, well, the
Unknown Speaker 0:27
information I had that time was definitely that they were traitors, warning the Germans in advance. And that time, a German division was going to be withdrawn
Speaker 2 0:46
for service, especially a tank division, and going over the bridges up behind the Rhine to be recruited again. And unfortunately, Germans were tipped off by, I'm afraid to say this, by the doctor traitors. And it was very sad, because at that time, very little information could got through from whatever the Germans were doing, because they had their own anti spy thing, it is difficult to penetrate whatsoever. They had things well taped from that side, but the tragedy that they were told about because it would alter the whole co war situation politically and shortened by at least a year. And that time, I think, the authorities in London were a bit confused. They were not quite sure, and they they they were given so much to call double information, which was often deliberately by such a way to give them a wrong impression of things, but I knew at that time, and I mentioned that I wouldn't say who to whom, because it may not be alive anyhow, and they just didn't take very seriously, which is sad, because I had a feeling when I talked to one or two people that these two Dutchmen were definitely receiving information from this country, passing straight on to the Germans.
Speaker 1 2:34
But you had a specific job. You were actually sent out there. Well,
Speaker 2 2:39
I was it was suggested see when I worked on silver fleet, we worked with Dutch submarine, and I was told afterwards, the guy was prepared to go on a very short visit to deliver certain messages at short range, which they couldn't do that on the long range, because they were intercepted, and also somebody who had the good command of German language would accept as being German, because there weren't, you weren't dealing with monks. We're dealing game with professional people. And so I said, Fine, and any other cut long story short was only made short for a couple of days, and I managed to get back. But then again, I did show myself. I had to, and the Germans were definitely baffled when they heard, over the short wave radio, certain message coming through, and he started to act on that, and that
Unknown Speaker 3:44
was you issuing false information?
Speaker 2 3:47
Yes. Then again, the minister information, as you know, covered many things, not only propaganda firms. We somehow directed a photograph, and they were obviously trying to find ways of penetrating, you might say, the German vice which was closing in on all sides, as you know, and also there were so many traitors in France. When people talk about the French Resistance Movement, I can tell you this, there were only a certain number of people dedicated Frenchmen. I mean, I heard this from many Germans after the war who were officers in occupied France. They said, How much does the French resist? Presented the British and Americans arriving there because they they got them quite well with the Germans, the Germans allowed the black market, which suits the French. They didn't appear as long as the French didn't start blowing things up and behaved in a decent way, so far as they're concerned. So. And they were told that many times. And also you'll find in many reports, when the British landed, that there was certain soundness in the French for the French people, actually, later on, when they got to Paris, was a different thing. But in beginning in the northern France and all the rest of it, and the Germans were very confidently installed there on very good terms for the French, and one wanted to find out really how much one can do under certain circumstances, see to keep the landing the second front secret was enormous task, but all the spies and all the people talked and and, you know, so many diversions you had to make, and with so much transport involved and everything else, it was enormous undertaking. Many people don't appreciate what it was, I mean, to beat the mulberry harbor alone. It was at great feet. This country did that. You know, British engineers, they designed that that made it possible to build artificial harbors quickly so the ships could unload things and things like that. So my life in those days were very exciting, getting mixed up with everything, going from one to the other, and Sydney box always, I must say, because Marvel was the way he had great contacts with with national with the government, and making films, whichever films were necessary at that time.
Speaker 1 6:35
I think perhaps we should go back and we now, and now we've covered a little bit of that, go back a little bit on the cinema. And fill up a few of the years before and Roy will take over. Okay, let me ask you the question. But So although you were active in the I suppose, in intelligence by and being landed abroad, you know, and again, you also did work on home front.
Speaker 2 7:05
Yes, because when I worked at Denham studios, see, whenever Simon came up, where I would think they asked, especially the firm, and afterwards, they accepted me being on the reserved occupation. What was I saying? Oh, yes, when I write the studios, the eye friend of mine was an ARP, and they said, Now look, Erwin, we're short of ambulance drivers. You've got such marvelous eyesight, and as you know, a bit of black art not allowed. Do you think you could spare you, know, little time to when you come back, as you will, at least by time I get back. But anyhow, I'll see what I can arrange. So the cut long is very short. I did do some work with the ALP was Amber's driver. And as I knew, London Bay were and I could go at Marvel's eyesight. I was working for the RP, for for short pairs, as as a volunteer. So again, we used to, this may make you laugh. We wouldn't trust as there was always a rumor that German parish was maybe dropped, and they obviously the first thing you want to get is get a hold of transport so they can so we used to take our buddy cordial on the ignition. You have the thing, you take that off. And then every time, we used to put it off and put in my pocket, wrap it up in some tissue paper. And this is the way nobody can steal a car. Anyhow. Why other people don't do it now? Then you never get your car stolen. Yeah, and that was one of the things which, you know, was enforced to us. But it was, I was only in there for a certain period of time, not very long, because then when teachers took me to on location in scarf and place like that, obviously I couldn't be down there. So I was more as a volunteer, appearing you just were never necessary. But
Speaker 1 9:05
it wasn't just Arp. You also drove an ambulance, didn't you? That's what I did. Now,
Speaker 2 9:10
I still got three parts owing to me. I got through the paper tomb, which I hadn't, didn't collect for the post office. There was three parts for my service system, but it appeared it was, I still haven't collected from the post office. Maybe worth a bit more, though.
Speaker 1 9:25
So with all this working, I mean, you were making films in the day, that's right, and working. So what sort of hours would you have been working in those days? Well,
Speaker 2 9:34
in all hours, because I used to go, come back, have something to eat, little supper, then quickly go down the RP at Logan Hendon Central, and then be there up to midnight to whatever. Then the other shift would take over, or I would come in another shift. And I always prefer to have the early shift, and at least I have five or six hours before I get up and go to studios again. Where would you be living in those days? I did? Did mansions live in Avenue at 10 central that time. We lived there for quite number of years to 1946 46 I think yes, 1946 and we had a flat, you know that? So that was part of my sort of work
Speaker 1 10:25
that leads us free to cover the the film, work that the next on the next session and go round that doesn't it, right?
Roy Fowler 10:35
Okay, look very thin. We're resuming recording on the fourth of November, 1988 and Erwin, you've come up in your memory with two more films from the Goon period, forbidden territory. And my song for you, one with the first one with Anton Dolan, who must have been quite, yes, quite young. Oh,
Speaker 2 11:00
absolutely. He was very dashing. Top person. Obviously had great talent. And his personality and very handsome appearance encouraged to go on British to put him with this story. He did very well. I thought, you know, as being his first film, and then I followed it on the young Kapoor, who was that time next to Ginny and Karu, so one of the top singers in the world. And he appeared in a firm called My song for you. He was based striking personality, had a great sense of humor. And also we discovered he was the middleweight amateur boxing champion Poland. Most people thought it was rather feminine, but it just showed you again how wrong you can be. So that was great fun to work on with somebody, because I was interested in music and great singers. And he was, without any doubt, a brilliant artist. But if the only time, you know, I worked with him, he returned to the continent after that, then Michael went on after that, right?
Roy Fowler 12:17
You have a name for forbidden territory. It was directed by futile, yes, and you've got this camera, is it fit to Noel? It's filled
Speaker 2 12:28
and fertile Noel, I think it was for general because I know I worked with him once or twice, and he didn't appear on the other picture. So it must have been on these two because he came over to London from where, from Hollywood as a very little small chap, and he was one of his most people didn't like him because he was a troubleshooter, and he worked on and he used to report based people to the management for not doing certain things, which often were was rather a bit too harsh, and he didn't have a sort of charm of child of an anger. Or Glen McWilliams we had, who also Americans, who we had, you know, with different types. So I was with him as short paired. And I was never very impressed with him as a creative he was just a very good commercial lighting camera man. I mean, Bernie Noel, in my opinion, would have been just as good, even better. And as you know, Bernie Noel, who was but Goon British, one of the top British lighting cameras that time. He then, later on, went to America and became quite an outstanding television producer and made many films of the states. So I thought that Bernie knows who definitely I checked up. He did photograph juices. Nobody asked me definitely on that right
Roy Fowler 14:11
as as principal cameraman.
Unknown Speaker 14:12
Oh, yes, definitely, yes.
Roy Fowler 14:16
Okay, nothing more than to be said about those two films, or indeed, the Goon period as a whole, which we more or less went through.
Speaker 2 14:28
I mean, they were very hectic. There was a very happy atmosphere at the studio, I think Auckland, and all the executives the company all gave it that sort of thing about China challenge to be making films of great British might say, quality for a world order Absolutely. And it was very nice to be in Barbara. Things are all busy all the time. You. And the only reason I left because I wanted the opportunity to become, you know, is take a step up, right?
Roy Fowler 15:07
Well, we began to talk about that when you left to go to rock studios, yes, and become a camera operator. Yes, I'm not sure how, whether we did it properly. So let's start afresh on that period, starting in 1935 Yes, rock studios were in Elstree, right? The old ideal studios, I think, going back father
Speaker 2 15:35
had the student, they had their own sound system, which unfortunately was some copyright or some complications, and I think the father committed suicide. And Jerry Blatner, his son, became studio manager, and I'm generally called ales, who was a city financier, he took on the studio. And Joe rock was an American who came over his family to run the studios. And he was quite an experienced sort of entrepreneur. Very nice man, but he liked life, films, comedies and musicals. And they thought that time view, very low. Finances available. This was the way they want to do things. And then they engage people like Leslie Fuller, who, at that time one of the outstanding British comedians. And so when Charlie van Enger was offered to go to Elstree to this, to make this film. He said to him, Now look, Erwin, you always been complaining about operating. Would you like I give you be prepared to give you an opportunity. So I immediately handed my notice and joined Charlie on that film. My mind was only one firm. So I left them more as a secure job to try something which I felt very confident I could do quite well. And also worked with a man who I had a great rapport with, nice person.
Roy Fowler 17:14
So presumably you had operated on second or third camera on some of the other pictures. You
Speaker 2 17:22
know, I hadn't done very much at all. I used to, used to practice during the lunch hour, panning and tilting it and, you know, following things around and and become I learned so much from today's camera, and I worked with how to set up a camera, how to so you can always maneuver around and get yourself in position and balance and keep yourself physically fit, because the cameras were very heavy at times and required also physical strength. And they were not so smooth for panning. You had to make sure the head was free. And were they friction heads or geared heads? They were mostly friction heads and they varied. They weren't, obviously the standard the of tripods so superior. I mean, it's easy, not. I don't want it to operate and do quite smooth movements. And so this, again, trial of an English they said to me, Erwin, if are you try this and this and that, get a certain comfort. Always get yourself in counter position when you hand the camera. Get your different stools to sit on, if you are so you, when you move around, make sure nothing you can just walk around it. And always just lie along and be creative and make your movements smooth and polished. You know where the camera's moving. That's a great art. She said to me, make sure the camera is always you're one together.
Roy Fowler 18:51
Had he been an operator in Hollywood? Oh, yes. Everybody in America
Speaker 2 18:55
had to sort of progress through the lines. And he sort of took me under his wing and gave me advice, which was very kind, and we had the great fun together, because he had great sense of humor too. So that was my start. And then after that, I stayed at a studio. What
Roy Fowler 19:17
sort of shape was the studio in? It was a relatively cheap studio to work in. I believe it was
Speaker 2 19:22
very rough already because the stages were, you know, pretty ropey. And when you want to shoot make a long shot, you had to open the studio door, shoot through the doors to get a long shot of a set. There's no other way of doing it. So we're finishing. We were outside the carpenter shop was opposite on the main stage. And then it was quite amazing, what we achieved in a small place by using imagination lenses, wide angle lenses, to make everything look bigger. And Joe rock was amazed what we achieved on the shoes. Thing made one realize what can be done on very modest, you know, facilities. So there, again, was quite a pleasant atmosphere. And besides, Harold Roy, who at that time was one of the top band leaders, again, had a vague exception, charming personality, and his whole type of jazz was very popular and tuneful. And, you know, everybody enjoyed working on the film like that, but he had always nice music played all day long, and it sort of added more to you once you know, well being and enjoyment. So the pier at Rock Studios was very nice. And then 1936 I had a telephone call from Germany. They told me, I do for student, Johns Jones, coming over to work for basildine before,
Roy Fowler 20:59
forgive me before we get on to the something we didn't properly go into last time was your first meeting with Nicky Powell. Because, since,
Speaker 2 21:08
because when I'm I, when I met Michael Powell that time he, he was, you know, always very aggressive. I heard all about his style, being very young, and I was not afraid of anybody, because
Roy Fowler 21:27
was this a job that you had got for yourself, or had you been assigned to the picture
Speaker 2 21:31
the studio said to me now, Michael pass, come to make a film. So are you on the payroll of the studio? Now, I was, at that time, on the payroll I was paid so much for when I was working, and so much in between production, right? It was half Sally, I think, in between, but I was always working, there was very much of a gap, yes. And
Roy Fowler 21:55
this is the second film after the stoker with
Speaker 2 21:58
so Michael Powell then appeared, and he struck me. I mean, we got in quiet world when we discussed things, I could see he was a bully, and I resented bullies, even when I worked with Fritz Lang, at least he had great talent. So one had except that the whole world, Michael Powell that time was just one of the people who were learning, still learning himself, same as I was in one direction, so trying to get more information and develop once repertoire. Put it that way. So when the picture started, he always left the sort of composition to myself, which I thought was rather nice, and I would appreciated that. And only Ernest palm was light and calm, and who I had a very nice was charming man to work with, and I was being a sort of thriller subject, I sort of used this sort of technique on M where come up position below, using dark shapes in the foreground and to make the thing looking exciting, great depth and dramatic movements across. And
Roy Fowler 23:18
were you consciously imitating or working within the German style of experience,
Speaker 2 23:23
because I felt this story had a sort of to make it interesting, because it was a very thin script put this way. And also that time Michael Park didn't quite himself. Know what he wanted doing. He just wanted to make an exciting film. Was very easy to say, make an exciting film unless you have ideas and how to put it on the screen. So Annie Palmer was, as I said, liked myself being involved in camera setups, and also encouraged him in the lighting to try something which he always wanted to not adjust to be known as a first class comedy lighting expert, which he was so between the three of us, we eventually wrote this film, and as I said, My compositions and suggestions for camera movements went down very well with Michael Powell. I mean, we used to be sarcastic sometimes, but I ignored that. I thought it's far more important to make sure that we're getting something which we can be at least pleased with them. So we worked very long hours with him. I remember the longest period I had 36 hours non stop, which was quite a quieter, you
Roy Fowler 24:45
know thing to do. Why was that? Well, because
Speaker 2 24:49
they've always traveled the the artists were late and we had to the schedule was so tight didn't allow. Are some the little refinements, which for the extra close ups you wanted, which is very important you shooting, leveling a long shot, mid shot. I mean, close ups, as you know, are often really vital to so whenever I lined up the cameras, I said to Michael Powell, when you see look through the camera, we do need quite a number close up going by that the dialog you must have illustrated the expressions of people which we can't register enough at this distance to agree to that. So we naturally, by having to have these, what is called luxury shots, which are not really essential shots. It stretched the schedule you see. So we had to work little later because all held up session. Old film making artists fluff the lines and whatever. So that's why we did one or two specials, 36 hours many times, 24 hour sessions as well. This would be what the end of the week? Well, any time during the week, anytime we had a six day week, six days working week, and morning time we worked, even Sundays, and that time we had no protection so far over time or didn't exist.
Unknown Speaker 26:23
Wasn't this a costume
Speaker 2 26:23
picture the man behind the Iron Mask? No, I don't think. I don't think contemporary subject. Yeah, it was a contemporary I remember Michael Schwartz played the leading part. Something Schwartz very odd. Name grinsley. We had, actually, I had the photographs which I wish I brought along. I bring it to you next time. Well, we can always find out who was in because we had Jane bexton that remember at that time, she was quite a well known English actress, very good actress. Do you
Roy Fowler 26:59
remember who the producer was,
Speaker 2 27:04
not for a second. Noel, I know that Joe rock was the man who was the head of the studio, and also he was the producer. He sort of always used to check over things. He's the one who engaged people, fired them going through the
Roy Fowler 27:20
studio also was a place that took in independent productions, did it? Oh,
Speaker 2 27:27
yes, but mostly firms which Joe lock managed to get finance to was then the studio, and then this was for MGM. Was really at a quick in a way, because MGM that time had to have quite like quota, so that register as a quota, and they were very I think they liked it very much. But Michael Powell doesn't like to be remembered about the firm, because it wasn't one of his distinguished firms. But same time nothing to be ashamed of, because going by the script, I think we got the best value of presenting it as we had. How long did it take to shoot? Do you recall about three weeks? Remember, most of films took three to five weeks the most. I don't think it must much over three weeks was water too tight. It was statue. I'm not sure if the budget was 5000 pounds, and there was some ridiculously low figure. And when I when you hear about it, I mean, just how can it be done? But being a small studio, no, the overheads were not very high, and we weren't all so well paid. Is all that
Roy Fowler 28:41
well, it's astonishing. We're so used to different styles of budget. I was, I had to review a book the other day about Jack Nicholson, and his first film was in 1958 and the budget was $7,000
Speaker 2 28:55
really, yeah, yes, partner, it's amazing. A week and a half. It's amazing what can be done when things are a little on a tight side. See, this is where, unfortunately, when years later and Big Bucks paint came along and people became irresponsible, I hate to say this, and took liberties, and they got away with it amongst directors now, but even I hate to say by all union members took advantage of things, I will agree with you. It's very sad.
Roy Fowler 29:30
We'll talk about those times that, I guess, began in the 40s, then went on, didn't they? I would use those words too irresponsible and discipline. Anything more to say about that particular film? Because, in a way, it was very important to you in your subsequent I love
Speaker 2 29:49
because of many yellow camera setups and and
Roy Fowler 29:54
it's, have you seen it since? Or it's firmly on your memory? Yeah.
Speaker 2 29:59
Only just vague, because after that, so many things happened to me, and you know, things that get pushed on the background, and some much more exciting things later to follow.
Roy Fowler 30:10
But stylistically, this was important, oh yes,
Speaker 2 30:14
and that it was, it was very exciting, because considering what we had, we made, made it look really big, very good indeed. And I think MGM at the time, were very pleased with the firm. They didn't expect to see something which had so much class. It was just using up for audition. They get their quote. I preferred. It doesn't matter if these people saw it or not.
Roy Fowler 30:39
Would it be fair to say that your contribution and that of Erwin Palmer were as important as Mickey Powell? I
Speaker 2 30:48
would say so, because Michael Powell that time, he relied very much of the hope he could get, and he enthused us and also the See he himself was just in the early part of his career. Was still learning his side, and, you know, didn't have Emerick Pressburger to write the scripts for him. Just had to make the best what was given to him,
Roy Fowler 31:13
what was his principal contribution to the film? Do you think his handling of the actors well,
Speaker 2 31:18
to a certain extent, also his driving force. He has a personality which is very compelling. He's we know he's sarcastic, but he does drive people long, and he always tried to push people and in my career with him, I often surpassed myself, did things which I never thought I could do because of his sort of drive and his sort of demanding to get the very best possible. He didn't want to be just ordinary anything which is average. He wanted to be always above
Roy Fowler 31:58
average. Was it an abrasive relationship in those terms, when, when we was had we had,
Speaker 2 32:04
but I call friendly disagreements privately, not in front of me. Rather do that. But he always remembered me for being very dogmatic argumentative. But then again, when you discuss things with people, the intelligent people, you can't it's news being a stooge and just say yes to everything when you know it's not best idea. He encouraged people to have ideas,
Roy Fowler 32:33
so he was receptive.
Unknown Speaker 32:34
Oh yes, definitely.
Roy Fowler 32:37
Obviously, we'll talk about that relationship when we come to very important pictures that you have made within 1010, years later. So let's move on then to cotton queen, which has Bernard four houses director and
Unknown Speaker 32:53
Eric Cross was
Roy Fowler 32:54
a large Eric cross, right, yes,
Speaker 2 32:58
Bernard four house I this was, again, one of the very television directors. We all liked him very much because he he had a player in this style of direction. And it was a very pleasant person, very pleasant person. I think his wife used to be on on a sat alone, if I remember correctly, sort of being, sort of keeping an eye on things. But here, as you know, made quite a number of interesting firms. I think I only worked in once, because that time, I moved on to on other things, to other studios, because at that time, also at the Rock studios the beginning, short of finance. So there were always gaps coming up, because it's to get new productions on the line. So isn't he sitting around and waiting for things to happen? I wanted to be always busy.
Roy Fowler 34:06
Did you have an awareness of finance at this point? How films were financed? Well,
Speaker 2 34:13
I was always told we were going over budget. He was over budget. At least, cost too much money. You don't know where Joe rock got his money from. No, I think I was the millionaire who, who he used to find finance and except the Michael Park firm would met Metro Goon, where they paid for that, and they paid naturally for everything there. So becoming made a little profit after that film.
Roy Fowler 34:47
Since Bernard four house now is becoming what rediscovered, I suppose, as a director, I wonder if you can tell us more about either his way of working or the film itself.
Speaker 2 34:58
Well, I. Remember there were, we had worldfi, I think was one of the leading comedians in this country, and he was Scottish. And I forget now the other artists there were Peter Handley. That's why Peter Handley was, that time, a young, upcoming juvenile artist, and he had some interesting casting. I can't remember the leading lady's name, but she also had a sort of career in front of her. And we went to Blackpool, I think, to shoot some of the exteriors. So it was quite fun again, working with a director who had a nice style. He bought out, always good performances and very refreshing mind civilized human beings. Nice to work with civilized
Roy Fowler 35:53
directors. He was an American of German descent, yes, German origin. What was his contribution to the visual look of the film? Don't
Speaker 2 36:03
think he bothered too much about He left it to us. I mean, he used to say, let's have a long shot first, and then maybe mid shot here and over shoulders and whatever, he was very business like in his approach. Then again, he created, also very pleasant atmosphere for everybody to work in, including the artists.
Roy Fowler 36:25
Eric Cross was a British lighting camera man. What are your memories of Eric at that time? Very
Speaker 2 36:31
pleasant man again, who just trying to make a best living possible in the very uncertain industry.
Roy Fowler 36:42
And a stylist, or just a as it were, a straightforward studio,
Speaker 2 36:46
a more commercial type, I would say, definitely more commercial type. I mean, he knew what to do, and he didn't waste time. He got things moving. He knew that schedule had to be looked at and studied technically proficient. Oh, absolutely, no doubt about it. So we had quite a good team working there. This is what was very nice about the rock studios. It did encourage some very nice people to get together who also good in their work and to all harmonize. One thing is important,
Roy Fowler 37:29
anything more to say about rock then before we move on? Well,
Speaker 2 37:32
Joe rock being a typical American entrepreneur, great sense of humor, he was only a very little man in physically, in science and but I liked him very much because he encouraged me when I worked, you know. And I also started doing some lighting too at times before, before I left. And I remember one firm I can't and one day at lunch time, he called me in his office, and Jerry Platt was the student match, and said, Erwin, you want to take over the camera man. I can't remember who it was they they disagreed about something. And he said, We've got to carry on. It's your chance now you go down there and get and I finished the film. I can't remember the name of it, and me had been one of my royal films. I know the American director. His name called Pratt, I think, or something like harmony big, he looked like a big gorilla, and he has disagreement with this camera man over something.
Roy Fowler 38:48
Well, you have Olympic honey moon, Golding and Pratt as directors, with Ernie Powell on camera. Could it have been that one?
Speaker 2 38:55
It could have been. It could have been because I remember I when I suddenly, out of a blue suddenly said, you, you're going to start lighting. And I remember all the things which I might and like every break you put in everything too much. So keeping things very confined, just fewer lights in there had too many. It's a Bitsy things moving around the same time, they liked it. They approved it that they thought was, you know, very good indeed, a good training Goon coming there to get to come operate, and then moving on very shortly after, to be able to light, yes, you wouldn't be able to do that in a major studio like Goon British. You wouldn't engage somebody else who was established you're
Roy Fowler 39:43
still in your mid 20s. Oh, yes. Was there any second unit work that came your way, or model work
Speaker 2 39:53
been I just there were always something the shift and blowers were that time working at. Of studios. Now I remember I was involved with them, and quite an interesting Jew, some who very clever. Now we it was later on when the war broke out. They were interned, which were very sad, because they were not enemy. They were not enemies and any respect. And they like England very much. And they were shipped to Australia.
Roy Fowler 40:24
There were great many injustices. Don it was very
Speaker 2 40:27
sad, because they had nothing to do with Hitler and other people. And they just loved this country. Many continents came over to England. They liked the English people, with their character and their behavior and being highly civilized and little pubs and little inns in England, and it had something very endearing for them. And many of them moved on to Holly because, as you know, the firms was not very large at time.
Roy Fowler 41:01
Well, it was also very precarious. Oh, absolutely. We're coming to that time when the when almost all the studios closed in 1938 oh, yes, when the industry collapsed,
Speaker 2 41:14
Germans operating that time, there were only three feature films being made.
Roy Fowler 41:19
You know, after Well, again, that's a little ahead, because you wanted to talk about how you came to go to Ealing. Oh yes,
Speaker 2 41:27
with young Charles, yes. Well, had this phone call from Germany, and it said to me, now Jan Charles has come to London, and he heard about you, and he's asked basil Dean, who was then the head of eating Studios was producing and also directing it for you to join him, and as His English is practical, non existent. Would I meet him in London? So I met him, and he took me to studio, and I met basil Dean, very tough, even tougher than Michael Powell, in many respects. Very stern looking man, tall. He ran the whole place was everyone was terrified. As studio, I could see the fear coming from rocks to where everything was easy going. He had Ealing. This man being the boss, and he was quite pleasant to me, and no point of being unpleasant, because he knew that I had worked with puts along other things, and I'd be able to communicate both sides who didn't speak each other's language. So cut long story short, young Darling who was then one of the top lighting cameras from Prague, had also great finesse in his work, not only as a technician, but also a great artist, but tremendously fast now having to interpret many things with basildine operation camera, also on the lighting side, it was marvelous be able to be involved all I just managed to have find enough time to operate the camera. So while it was lighting and I would tell the chief electrician What stalish wanted to do and so on, and encourage him to do things the way stalish worked. So that was quite a nice arrangement, because stalish welcomed, you know, somebody could interpret exactly what you want, I know, see, they one time thought to get normal interpreter. And they thought, if somebody who understands the technique of film making is far better than somebody a non technician, they used to know what's talking about. So the studio were very happy that this worked very well. And so we went to Salzburg in Vienna, on locations we had some was a very big film. Was a life of Mozart and Stephen haggard, who was then one of its stage, you know, artists, was given the part of playing Mozart, and he was a very sensitive actor. And cause Victor Harper being married to basildine was that time an actress of certain standing, so that gave her an opportunity. And also basildine was pleased to have a lighting camera, who was wonderful photographing woman. He used to say to each stars many times when special, when his wife's close up came up, take as long as you like, don't, don't rush it. Young. I interpret to me, and he said to me, joking, which I didn't just. Turn, never mind. He knew it was the wife, and he obviously would take care of any artist. But the same time when we went to Austria, and filming in Salzburg was always great fun. And also the when we arrived in Austria, there was some confusion with the customs, and I was very fortunate to have to interpret also now for the production manager, who was in trouble, he had all the details typed out and given them to the custom people, and they just shook the head and said, We have to take but take us at least a day to go to all this equipment. So he said, Well, we're going to shoot next stage tomorrow. It's going to be disaster for us. Why can't you give me advanced information? Oh, we've got to see everything. So cut long story short, I interpret for the production manager. You call me over. And I explained to these people that it was a very important firm, from Austria's point of view, the life of Mozart, it's a very big production. Had some big fine artists putting it and to penalize the company who in this time, they've done everything they thought was correct. I said, Couldn't you help us? So the man I spoke to eventually turned around and was absolutely charming. He said, I tell you what I do. You take the equipment to a hotel, and then we send somebody along to check it over at the hotel, probably unpacking, because we ordered not a storage space in the hotel, many rooms put aside for the wardrobe and cram equipment and so on. So the custom man came to our hotel. He only looked through one or two, and he choked everything off, and everything was settled within very short time. So I played my part, also getting helping the production manager, who unfortunately didn't speak German. And we were very fortunate. At least, everything started nicely. So that was the other part of my function, sometimes, Bane the Berry was a very tough man. I don't think he was so talented. I know he was very important person that time at evening studios. But to again, take fear amongst people working for him and this terrible thing which I hit this light, and I was very independent person. I didn't care it was bad or not. I was, you know, just, you know, pleasant to him. Obviously, one always treats people to respect you your superiors. But we resented the atmosphere, but we just wouldn't allow him to get on with our skin and and jump down. She's just really cool. But again, carried on being a top professional, doing his job, and did a wonderful job. I've learned so much being involved in.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Roy Fowler 0:01
Well, this is side six. Yes, the tape run out unexpectedly. You were saying about stylish, the way he worked. Well, his
Speaker 1 0:10
his being involved so closely with him, I learned more on that picture, because it made me realize all things you can do with the lighting and the choice lenses. And he used to guide the art department, say many times during meetings, well, the window there is, could you have a slightly larger window? Because I want to get special effect coming through, the sun coming through, hitting the wall half the room, because I want the rest of it being half in shadow, and soon, like that, he was very clear on his mind how he's going to light it. Well, there are not many lighting cameras in the film business. Who happened to be in advance, he painted everything off his mind, exactly. It's
Roy Fowler 0:58
an interesting question, where he acquired the technique, because I can't imagine there was a large film industry in Czechoslovakia. Was he also working in Germany or other countries? Yes,
Speaker 1 1:08
he worked and all over Europe, especially also at that time Bucha, and then he worked in Vienna, of course, quite a lot. But he himself, see, the Czechs are very enterprising. They're the most advanced of all Slavic races. People don't perhaps realize that they turn out their own cameras called Sinophone, which was that time, a very technically easy camera to work with. And they on a whole, very reliable. They also had their own, made their own light lamps and things like that. They They hardly imported anything, because being very thrifty and also very highly intelligent race and stalish was also a great artist, with being a great technician and having a sort of visual mind and gift, which is a gift, to be able to explain in a few words what you want to do, and that's it. And he was tremendously fast, because he never waste one lamp. Everything had to work. He said, Every lamp he put set up had to do a job, not to do a lot of kinkle. It's in used to be his German expression, which meant seeing that things which mean are meaningless. Everything had to have
Roy Fowler 2:31
a purpose. Say it again in German. So we got it King coli King Coliseum
Speaker 1 2:35
means itsy bitsy. And I learned enormously from him. I was so couldn't wait to tie up my own hands after having worked with him and being so closely associated in all the discussions going on. But every department there was interpreting things, and they all felt that he was their friend, the art director at Mark his sort of helping hand, because a production designer requires also encouragement from the lighting camera and that the newest building is set. And you find later on, people say, Well, I can't like this or this is boring. He always used to look at his sketches and then say, well, may I suggest, why don't you put a ceiling in? I can take care of that. The Alfred was amazed to hear that ceiling, yes, why not? So they had parts ceiling in. And he said, Give me a little opening on the side, which be out of picture. There's an opening on the wall, which we could float up. We put a lamp coming through, but you can't see, was concealed. And in the long run, he encouraged the other people to to really go all the way. Because he said, everything is possible. Question, how you adapt things and having this sort of personality and a great artistic, great sense of humor with that, he was never tense about things. But he was also a clever businessman, because I always remember when the firm finished and he was collecting his fees. He wanted to be paid in cash. So he were paid in five pounds, those lovely white notes. Remember, but five I remember it was 5000 pounds, which was then he was very highly paid, quite enormous salary, which he took back with him to park. Now was remember that last time I saw him for some time, because Nate only came back to London and he worked for corda, and that time I was mixed up with other things, and he his knowledge of English. It was very limited, but he eventually, we did tell him to say spot or flood. He used to do it by signs, by going this way meant flooding and this way meant spotting, so that we saw the sign language was understood. But I used to write down for him all the English translation, how to say in English for this certain things and which he had in front of him often, but he didn't quite
Roy Fowler 5:29
remember. He was obviously a very strong technician, but also a great stylist. So did he have one particular style, or was he
Speaker 1 5:40
could you see he had he wasn't like as dramatic as Gunter camp would be. For instance, he his star was more glamorous to certain extent. It's more slightly hard, slightly hard key, but also still very interestingly dramatic without being quite so foreboding. Crime, for instance, was very lit everything with very small light sources, little bit here and then there, and it looked beautiful. I must say. He had lamps everywhere, assuming lamps you couldn't often get on the stage. They come in from all different angles. Astonish. Had a difference. He made one lamp do as much work as possible. You know, did
Roy Fowler 6:25
he also use a lot of compensation, diffusion and such, on the lamps or in the camera? No,
Speaker 1 6:31
he was very what I call modernist diffusion. He wanted to get certain sharpness. He didn't want things to he'd rather thought he wanted achieved the softness and light in the lighting itself. Then, using a shooting through a ghost, and having so many heavy Gauss in front of a lens, we had very light diffusions only. And as he diffused
Roy Fowler 6:56
at source, did he Yes? As gente camp
Speaker 1 7:00
did it through the camera, you see, and using small sources, and leaving all the black areas and using arcs and inks very cleverly. You see, this is where he was typically jump. As stylish was more beanies than Czech, right? This is the way I could more like a Slavonic dance. DeVore was more or less his sort of style of music. So was it
Roy Fowler 7:31
not also actually an ufer style? I seem to think of a lot of the German dance films. Oh yes, being very high key, oh yes,
Speaker 1 7:42
they were some but generally the dramatic films, one always talks about Fritz Lang again, where they were photographs, I always remember the nice compliment I had when I couldn't attend the premier silver fleet, which was one of my early successes for Michael Powell Pressburger, being producers, and I used, again, the German technique, and one of his secretaries wrote me a nice letter saying, Susa, you couldn't attend. It reminded me of the best Germans tradition in lighting. Was such a nice coming from a person who was not a non technician, and that I thought was a great compliment. So in Germany, you had naturally variety, because with Lubitsch being, you know, sophisticated comedy, you wouldn't dream of using this sort of a heavy type of lighting technique or automatic. So you had the two schools, and again, some great talent from all countries. See in Germany, we had from every country in Europe, people working there somehow. And it was, it made a nice sort of create a nice atmosphere. Because I never looked down as foreigners being rather in defense or rather ridicule.
Roy Fowler 9:16
Here, do you say here in this country? It
Speaker 1 9:20
didn't. Was over here, people were sent, meant here to certain extent, often very, I think, unjust, because the always employed a spaceship. Young British technicians were all given opportunity to learn from somebody who happened to know somebody. And at that time, the industry was so fragile, there was very little, except for Goon, British area. There was nothing, even VIP. I only worked there very occasionally. I worked at AVP. See later on. As you probably know, for 12 years, I never enjoyed working at abpc, which I'll tell you later. But other reasons, see, we barely had a studio, which certainly was denim and Pinewood eventually came farmers quarter responsible for that. Without corridor, we've never been a denim when you
Roy Fowler 10:26
say studio, are you talking about the physical plant or the continuity of production?
Speaker 1 10:31
Well, both. You see the with artists. See Denham had it. They had a certain continuity. We had two or three different companies working at two cities, and then an independent film produced by Paul and Pressburger, Carol Reed, Gillian Warner and so on, and Anthony asquest. They were the independents for two cities, but Jude see again, another foreigner, a great entrepreneur who gave Lance Olivier every chance he he supported him to make handy the fifth, I don't
Roy Fowler 11:05
want to jump ahead too much into denim, because denim is a particularly fascinating subject. So we'll go into that in depth,
Speaker 1 11:12
explaining sort of the personalities which are Clifton, British firm, honestly, from Europe, mainly, and, of course, from the United States too. So it's never been what I call a completely pure, immersive British productions where you see everybody's from this country, because people are still learning, you know. But
Roy Fowler 11:40
I don't think that's true of any European or indeed North American cinema. It's always been a very widely based cultural enterprise. It may be different in Japan, it may be different in India. It certainly is in Hollywood or this country or France, Italy, always maybe Italy is a little more cohesive.
Speaker 1 12:02
Well, Italy had a sort of style of their own, which I liked enormously and respected them before the war. Do you mean yes? And also after war? I always loved working in Italy because I like that attitude and ener warm hearted effect, like very clever people, very talented people. So altogether, I would say that I think this country benefit by having so many times foreigners working with them here and encourage them too and giving everybody.
Roy Fowler 12:41
Was it your one experience of Ealing studios? Did you ever go back?
Speaker 1 12:47
I went back only for short period when the dictator was made and Victor savage took over the direction for American director, and he wanted to have I forget now some extra cameras, and I was told that Victor said, if I was there before week or so, could I come over and join him on the second camera? With our mind? I said, no customer, because that time was a very important artist, Clyde Brooks, who played a leading part, who was charming, delightful British artist, great standing in a word, and also being a very big picture. And I remember the set they had was some steps going down. It was designed by a Russian art director. I can't think for a minute his name, but Franz planner was a Viennese was a lighting tower man who I also met. You know, when I worked with Dada, she came over, and you always said one day, oh, we get together when you're free. Because that time I was very busy, so that was great fun, just as I worked with BECTU staff, with so many on so many firms, and so there was only that short pair when they were on one or two very big sets, because in those days, they always had two cameras available, two crews on all packing nearly every picture, which I think was a good insurance that the directors suddenly wanted to the same time, have extra cut ins for having a different setup. So this was a system we worked which I thought it's very intelligent. I should always have two cameras, in my opinion. You know, general production is saves a lot of money. I mean, the production managers accounts would say, oh, is another salary, but it's not. In actual practice, when you're on a very big action film, you won't have more than that. I mean, I've had. Later, years later on, choose a fishman, 15 cameras on a very big situation like the coronation of the Pope. And how are you going to shoot all that one day, the one camera ask you have to go take five or six years,
Roy Fowler 15:14
right? Yes, the multiplicity of setups. When was this film? The dictator that was again, pre war.
Speaker 1 15:22
Yes, that was also during that period, I think was 3637 or something like that was thrown that time, just before the war. School starts, 1939, not so much.
Roy Fowler 15:36
Who else do you remember being at Ealing when you were there? Did you have much to do with the
Speaker 1 15:44
studio crews? The one who was became a producer for Michael Vulcan, was his name again, Hal Mason. That's like, oh, he met Hal Mason, and he was then, I think, first assistant director, or something like that, and also Carol lead. The funny thing happened when I was down that studio, and he was first assistant director on another film, and I worked on, walked on a set during our quiet peers, and he spotted us, and he said, I'm sorry you can't stay here. The director wouldn't allow anybody we were thrown off the set by Carol Reed. Funny when I told him years later that when I met him at Denham, when I became a lighting camera and he made the third man, and I was that time, I think, mixed up with Powell and Pressburger, I said, you threw me off the set.
Roy Fowler 16:42
You never worked with him as
Speaker 1 16:45
a opportunity, because I thought you and I'm a very delightful, good highly, I think one of the most outstanding British directors, I would say he and David Lean and parfasker for certain films, and, of course, Michael park can never be executed, because his contribution speaks for itself. There were really old people working at denim at that time.
Roy Fowler 17:16
Ealing was a little studio somewhat isolated from the mainstream did how did you
Speaker 1 17:23
I appreciate the atmosphere there. I like this sort of homey atmosphere. I prefer this in many respects, because it was more intimate in many respects. And the type of people who worked there, they all seemed very efficient and very good. And I work in nice types. They were not unpleasant types. See, the film business always had, as you know, they had always a struggle as long as I've been in the industry, only a very short period ever, with the early part of denim, with rank coming in when there seemed to be a certain stability later on, for little time only, but otherwise always, it's always very fragile. There's always a great concern. Many people had to go on and try and talk for work and find out what's going on, and meeting up people in town have chats and say, did you hear so and so? Coming along, and I used to know many Production Manager used to give me tip off. Sometimes all they said so and coming over that might suit you. Erwin, why don't you let us know if you're free, and I introduce you to the producer and director and things like that, or lighting town, man, you had to do so much what I call public relations work of yourself. And you sitting back home for telephone to ring. I mean, you would do sometimes it's best to be finding out what's happening. And Water Street used to be quite a busy waiting place. For some reason, they always seem to know. And also the distribution people used to know in advance too. So I happen to know one or two people in distribution this year when students are coming over America. He should be in and this cow man, we heard his name mentioned, why don't you drop him a line, just or whatever. Just give him, give him advanced credits, things like that.
Roy Fowler 19:33
One final question about Ealing before we move on. There was a great policy of upward promotion within the studio. I was wondering if you remembered who your clapper loader was and your operator was not. Your operator, your focus puller, on whom the Gods love.
Speaker 1 19:49
I just tried to remember, see the people, all the ones I met was Hal Mason, and as I said, I. A top English director, Carol Reed. Carol Reed,
Roy Fowler 20:06
you don't remember the camera crew Well,
Speaker 1 20:08
Goon dines with old friend of mine. He was then established. He was the permanent operator. Put it this way there, and he worked. And he was also in charge of camera department. So if you went there, he used to allocate cameras as well. And he was a very, again, a very nice type of person. He was the one person I always late. Years later, we always were on very good terms, match at base, BSC meetings, because when, when the British side cinematographers was formed, he was also joined in recently early, which was years later, 1946, I think he was when we started it. Because we always felt that besides having a strong union that we ought to have also a guild, because we always wanted act to be more of a guild type union than being so politically motivated to certain extent. So I never had any much. I prefer the more this is the artistic side of than the political side of I know one had to take care of that is very important because of many unscrupulous producers. And I remember always too well that when I finished a film on my list, 1938 where David Lean was the editor called spies of the air. And a man called John crawfield was the producer. And when the film finished, there was another one he was going to make. And then he called him to his office, and he said to me, not Erwin, we liked your work very much last film, but my next film, I'm afraid I can only offer you Half Salary, which was seven pounds a week at the C 15, which was then supposed to be top salary, so I missed the coffee. I'm amazed. You should say that the view of all the hard work because I did the air photographers were which wasn't paid, egg, anything extra for that, and we shot everything on schedule. I said, I rather go and sweep the streets than accept this. And I turned it down. I went to George Erwin complained about it. Unfortunately, another act member did accept the salary, and I didn't, obviously hold it against them. That was but I was not well up financially. You know, luckily for me, a film came up in denim called on a night of a fire which good de camp was putting out thing. And again, his English was very limited. The same time I knew him, and I got on the phone within a week after turning down the other one.
Roy Fowler 23:06
There is one you went back to rock after whom the Gods love. Yes, the Harry Roy pictures, and you've talked about them with Ernie Powell. I don't suppose there's a great deal to add about those
Speaker 1 23:19
people. They were quite fun. I mean, as I mentioned before, the Harry Roy was outstanding band leader, great personality. And again, it was, it was a nice atmosphere. It's all music being played, and the whole unit enjoyed having this sort of atmosphere around them.
Roy Fowler 23:44
Then what at Highbury, you made a film? Oh, yes, no, that was offered to you. Was it? Yes? That was
Speaker 1 23:51
when it suddenly appeared. Elder words was a director. Used to be art director, and he said to me, they had a leading lady called Guitar Alper, and she also heard about that I had worked in Germany that time. And she said, be rather nice to get Erwin heard so much about him to be operating the film. Now, so Brewster was a lighting cow. Man, English lighting tower. Man, very nice person. And we made this film in high believe Neil Hamilton was the American star. Came over especially for it. And Mr. Stringfellow says Noel was quite a nice sort of comedy with guitar ALPA appearing as a singer in prima donna, which suited her, because she, at that time, one of the top singers in the operative theat. She and Richard Tauba were together on quite a number of the le ha productions. So that was quite. Fun in a way. And again, it was a very small, little, dumpy place. I mean, the firm, in their turn, the firm studios, not a joke, but we managed it.
Roy Fowler 25:09
It sounds a very large subject for Highbury. Oh
Speaker 1 25:13
yes, it's, it's for to go. Dude, I never thought of the studio. It's matter. I passed by, but I went and couldn't find it. In beginning, saw night house, a large house, and that was it. That was hybrid studios.
Roy Fowler 25:34
Then from there, on to this film you just mentioned, spies of the air. Well, spies of the air
Speaker 1 25:41
was quite great fun, because at that time, David McDonald was the director, who happened to make a reputation of slick, fast moving direction. Everything goes with a zip. And he always used to wanted the hammer to move all around the place and everywhere. And, you know, he was always searching for things. I said to him, you don't want to come up or you want an act of about the things you want to do, because, being shooting things in very big close up, and panning around the place, because and then catching people some big close up. There's all so much wasted footage, but because there's so much in between, which was meaningless because you didn't want to pan too quickly, becomes a blur if you do it in a so polished way, slow down, if anything, the film something emerges, but always direct cuts wouldn't let the camera waste so much time in No no man's land, you know, sometimes, but at the same time was great fun, because David Lean, who I met for very first time, was the editor. Then I also did all the aerial photography as well,
Roy Fowler 26:55
which was great fun. How did one do aerial photography in those days?
Speaker 1 26:59
Well, in those days we had an RAF, two seat aircraft. I always remember the pilots name was Squadron Leader light. Well,
Roy Fowler 27:11
they made a deal with the RAF
Speaker 1 27:13
just to go up and shoot above the clouds and dive to the clouds. And days just like that. And all I had, I had a human sink there, which I heard in my hands, that was in the in the two seater, I was on the other, obviously other seat. I could often feel the controls touch on my leg when they move. And I had hand held. And there was leaning over the side. And I, I didn't even tie myself in, you know, because I want to be free, there was no mushroom. Anyhow, I remember David Lean before we talk, obviously, Oh, be careful. Don't take liberties, because he knew I was once I looked to the camera, you know, I just ignored any dangers. The same time, this pilot was known to always be sloshed. He was very, very sober, and then he gave his best performance. I had no problems at all. It was very exciting going to the clouds and shooting against the light, which I love always. This is all the content and startup photography we always used to like shooting against the light on, on many and it gave it some the color and everything is the whole atmosphere is marvelous. So I came back someday, used from the chair, which they all liked.
Roy Fowler 28:34
The Newman took, what 200 feet up
Speaker 1 28:37
only take 100 feet so the spring would not take 200 feet. So you can only get each shot be 90 feet, be safe, because then it started to run down. So I spent most of the time almost winding enough. It was a short take, you know, I would always quickly wind it up so it was almost fully loaded. Then had a smaller stupid eye piece of look so new. You know, it was they, the vision was very restricted. You know, would you reload in the air? Or would you, yes, everything. So it's, you know, it was one man band. You know, there was no, won't it? Get us your system with you? And no time either. So had to be very quick, so I had all the spare magazines on my feet, you know, available, wrapped up in the cloth, black cloth, so make sure that no sun got into the traps the magazine was, was
Roy Fowler 29:37
it Air to Air footage, or was this background, more
Speaker 1 29:41
visual points of view, cuts right. And I didn't have to show, mustn't show the structure of the aircraft, always what you saw. So that was quite fun. Very exciting. And a game was something I never done before. And. Eight, many years later, when I made a dam Buster, it was and, you know, I learned a lot about being mostly flying. I loved the idea of flying. I enjoyed it. It would never make me nervous, ever, because there was something by being in the air and flying through the clouds and above the clouds, doing a different word, a marvelous sort of word, I think, is it is as a beauty and dramatic atmosphere. And when you break through the clouds, or you go to the clouds, you come into land and looks so dark, but he comes through the little opening. It was very enjoyable working on that
Roy Fowler 30:48
film. This is the one that was produced by John Corfield. You say, What a well known name at the time as a producer, what sort
Speaker 1 30:57
of English producer who had a reasonable good reputation. Was considered very clever businessman. And David McDonald, as I mentioned, he had a very excellent reputation being slick director, fast moving. He got the artist moving in every respect. He was not a static firm. He didn't like things to be static, so it was quite and it was quite successful from Barry K Barnes was the leading artist, and he was, that time, English star. Quite nice, looking chap, a good in his portrayal of the part, I think Barry. Barry, I'm not sure if Roger lives, he may have been on that. I think was, but Barry, or Roger lives, he played the other part, because I worked with Roger Lipsey years later on, I knew I'm going and so we had a bait of us, all English. This one completely English.
Roy Fowler 32:03
I see Brian Langley as the fighting term
Speaker 1 32:07
gain, a very capable person. Plus we used to smoke a pipe, and nothing ever upset him. Very much. Was very calm and collected person, Bay fish and what you had to do. There were dramas.
Roy Fowler 32:30
Were you making a living out of films at this stage now? 1938 was a particularly bad year for the industry, though, that was the collapse, wasn't it? I see your down for two films. The the two that we've mentioned, Mr. Stringfellow and spies of the air was, was that enough to keep you going, or did you well?
Speaker 1 32:49
Then I worked this way. My connections well. I met Paul Rosa and many the leading British documentary producers and directors. And I always liked documentary films, and I thought it'd be a great field for me to practice on, having learned from youngsters and various other lighting town man, now be on your own without having the studio. First of all, the studio would never give one a chance being at that, being so young as I was that time. So I thought documentation could give me great opportunity, not bringing that also often be involved with direction as well. Yes, so we had, this was a nice step
Roy Fowler 33:36
up. So that started in 1938 Yes,
Speaker 1 33:39
and the Sally was more the same to what I had as a camera operator, so there wasn't too much of a loss. So I thought it's better to be busy, and as the industry was having his heat cups, usually heat caps to do things which and meet new people again and the industry, I think it's good to to widen your your your you might say, field of contacts, because things are never permanent, as you know they really are. If you come this last, you know more certain time, especially as a British firm missing, always very tight in things. So the documentary was a very useful Marx period of why the film ministry was picking up again, hopefully, and I got involved again. But very nice, interesting people in gaining responsibilities that I made, went on a farm with Ralph keen in those days, the only three of us on a documentary films director myself operated too, and then we had we share the same assistant together. I had to change focus. I. Sure or the same assessment also helped the director. So just the three of us only, we worked. They were we made, went on a farm, which was shot in 10 days, sort of a five or six week schedule. And I always remember that film,
Unknown Speaker 35:20
I had enormous amount of luck when we came on location, a door set near a
Speaker 1 35:28
cat, not a town, and we were on this farm, and our secretary, Director, I came be rather nice. We started early in the mornings, because somehow I was here. The most exciting things happened early on not to arrive there, just late. So he said, What now? I said, the moment it gets nice, if you don't mind, I hope you so. He said, Okay, so we arrived there, and there was a mist line over the whole location. Now I could see the sun was trying to break through. It was very frosty. Winter. Time was December, I think. And as the sun was trying to break through, you could see the mist just leaving the grounds here and there, disclosing certain parts of the background. And the whole atmosphere was like fairy land. And he saw a horse pulling a plow, and he saw that being backlit, the nostr throwing out the breath. You could now photograph all this. Immediately, I was running from one setup to setup. We managed to get 1520 setups in an hour or less than that, while all this was taking place, because after an hour, so the whole fog would have vanished. Now, the shots we managed to get were actually tremendous on the screen. And I always remember I was told this by David Lean and Michael Powell, while location, we used the denim laboratories, and they were moving into the theater to see the rushes there early morning. And they came before that allocated time, and they were running. Went on the farm Russias. And they were so impressed what they saw. They said, who photographed that they saw the bill gold, who was then in the head of the said, Erwin Hillier is, on occasion, marvelous, marvelous. And this was this sort of thing happening, the people shall just walk in to see some of us which I hadn't seen that time, and that term went on a farm, made many people realize that maybe I had a certain ability which they liked, and I loved the sort of whole atmosphere of it. So one way or the other, things always link up. I'll be very lucky this way that sometimes you do things at us at the right time. And the documentary work always gave on opportunities I thought, and the people I was associated with as directors, producers, and Paul Warner particularly, was then a very striking, interesting personality, and I made quite a number of documentaries, which I've had helped me enormous in my career later on, because I discovered many things and I made use of certain things I learned. So I was well equipped by time I was given the opportunity to become the qualified feature photographer. It
Roy Fowler 38:47
added, I think, a great deal to your style. Oh yeah. Films is Canterbury tale, for example.
Speaker 1 38:52
Oh, absolutely see, because I was see having a love for this country and countryside, the the architecture and bath and many other small little towns. And to me, that's the West count is real England. I adore it. This part very much. To me, it's great part of Britain. Same as I love Scotland very much, as something about Scotland and Scottish people, which always invade and I found very endearing, and coming also through the Irish, I mean Ireland, and I think the crazy, lovable people leaving our politics, Irish people have something very special about them. Don't bring great sense of humor, very romantic. But again, years later, I watched that too,
Roy Fowler 39:42
tell me that early morning sequence on winter in the farm. How did you cope with it? Technically? Did you feel that confident? Yes, I
Speaker 1 39:51
did, because I always could. I had learned one thing about exposure, that when I was stuck down, if I. Could just see still, the highlights and the shadows didn't go too black. I knew I had the right exposure level because there weren't any light meters in those days. And I used to act as a as a light meter for many of the lighting camera I used to work for. And I used to look soon I said, this looks a bit brighter now. An hour young. Do you want to know? I said, well, at two, eight, it looks a bit too bright. Do you think we ought to stop down bit have a look yourself. So he looks to the camera. So he said, Well, how do you how do you guess that? I said, Well, look, when I stopped down a bit more, the shadows are still there, and the highlights, I haven't been lost. That just there without the overbride. I think that's a right stop
Roy Fowler 40:50
was to a to stop you faded. What
Speaker 1 40:53
did you see? The we used to work at two, three, mostly. And then, you know, there's no, very little definition
Roy Fowler 41:00
that was dictated by what the stock and the lens were, stock and also
Speaker 1 41:04
the mouth. Yet the stock, particularly speed of stock, also process techniques in those days and cost the lenses were, you were not anywhere near as advanced as later cooks and other sides and various other lenses which bought on the market. See, they were so many drawbacks, so you had to work fairly bit of white aperture. And this again, suited some lighting camera, because the argument is still later on. Say, Well, you have the marvelous lens, and when you stop down to earth 11, you're only using a small power lens. So what the hell is that? And there's a lot to be said for not over stopping down rather using neutral densities or other ways of closing down your shutter so you don't stop down over I know if you stop down over five, six, you lose something about somehow gets harder.
Roy Fowler 42:08
But as stock and lens improved, did you go to a smaller aperture? Well,
Speaker 1 42:14
I used to work mostly on locations, average six, 3f, eight, roughly or 11 if I shot against the light or something very dramatic. But generally found that at that level, and I found it was reasonably consistent with the speed of the phone stock, because the cameras lenses varied enormously. And I used, you used to make tests before I started any film, checking the lenses over. Many people thought I was very fussy, and as it was, just come off a BECTU, I say, I know, but I have responsibility. And Michael have responsibility. I like to see on the screen exactly how they react. And I said I like to have an alternative lens. Attest the same time, it's amazing how often you see that's not anywhere near as the other one. And even when I eventually hired equipment years later with Samuelson, they resented me asking so many different lenses down, I said, Well, I'm sorry, and I'm responsible for the photographers. You know, if the definite is not right, I don't want to see my assistant being penalized for something because the lens is not as good as should be. Were you untypical in that respect? In checking things out? Yes, I was too fussy, even when per and I finished the phone, and I said, in a denim and they said, just come off Paris picture. I said, Look, I still want to make a test on that. I knew something on lens was slightly out. The calibration was out. I said, I'm amazed. You shouldn't notice it. Somebody didn't notice it. The lack of definition was certainly there. It was the calibration was wrong, yes, so how'd that put right?
Roy Fowler 44:07
What then did you do? Did you recalibrate? Or did you just adjust yourself for this calibration? We
Speaker 1 44:14
used to, I used to do it ourselves, readjust, mark it up, and make another test. And then, we knew exactly that was it. But it's amazing how they do vary enormously. And I always on every firm before I started, tested every equipment, every part that alternatives to be tested. Of course, I was not very popular with these people. They didn't like that, but I didn't care about that. I was more interested that we get the best available, not to let down your own team. You see, it's very easy to say, well, you know, come from Samuel, since it must be 100% and they be the first one, but they don't know, somebody may have dropped the camera with. Not reporting yet.
Roy Fowler 45:03
Just going back to those early documentary films of yours, what would you say you learned from working with available light? Anything in particular? Well, because there's such a difference between having command of lighting units in a studio and then, well,
Speaker 1 45:20
I always found the best work I ever done in my life was when I had limited light sources on either one going I didn't have a general age with me at John location, only had a few reflectors, and I didn't care much about reflectors because they're blind artists. I always had doors put on the reflector so they soften the light. And I rather had sort of reflected lights, like sheets, flats painted white and reflect just generally if I needed any sort of filler light. But I tried always to be as close to reality as possible, and therefore I only use lights later on, when it's was net central that you had control for the for the artist, you lit them to the best advantage, or when the light was not the right place for them. So they're not completely black. In silhouettes, use an artist being in silhouette when you're supposed to see their faces in more detail. But again, I like the limited resources, because you do not really require that whole circus of things, you know? And the question how you choose your lighting? I mean, I always used to my favorite times were starting early in the morning, to me, that's one of the perfect lights. Then late in the afternoon, that's a perfect the long shadows. Yes, and you know, I know you can't budget the permit not shoot anything, but during the day, when the light became a Robert shoot against the light you see. So you have those effects when you go through the woods and you have old back lit coming soon, the pattern of leaves everywhere, and you know, it's shooting against the light. Is another technique which the Germans were very good at. It was, again, a repertoire, you might say the German star dramatically. I mean, lieberland was made by putznar. They shot in the forest, secret and the rest of it all all against the light, and they looked tremendous.
Roy Fowler 47:34
All that was studio, was it on? Well, yes,
Speaker 1 47:37
but the same time, the technique was against the light, and that's why, in the studio, also, I always used to arrange the lighting should be against the light.
Roy Fowler 47:47
Now, at this juncture, in fact, I think we'll flip over the tape. You.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Roy Fowler 0:00
This is Erwin Hillier, side seven. Erwin, at this point now, in the late 30s, you're on the brink of becoming a director of photography, and is a very thoughtful young person. How are you approaching that? To what extent is your looking for your own personal style, a matter of experience and a matter of theory.
Speaker 1 0:27
Well, it sort of becomes a part of oneself, you know, when having had from a very young age, contact with all the things which are always felt exciting. That's why I felt in photography, the range is enormous, and it's a question of personal interpretation. You can take 50 lighting camera and take on one set so you light it over, light it differently. You very rarely get the same reaction. To me, it was the self expression and accumulated all this knowledge and the love of photography and the visual side and camera movements and compositions. To me, a composition is the most important thing. Is why? Great strength, having been a young painter who unfortunately didn't take it up as a career that I was was very good in composition. It was my great strength. And when you compose a shot or movement of shot, its design encourages who brings into effect all the exciting things you can do. And I don't like orthodox photography, straightforward or comedy over lit out. I had to photograph comedy, everything's front line. Hate that side lighting was and against the lights were my sort of, oh, you would take the painter Rembrandt star V shape, the composition V shape I learned enormously from Rembrandt star, which I admired in my young days. I always try to to to use them as my sort of inspiration. So altogether, having this sort of taste for it and love for it, and want to do something which is different, not just to show off to people, just from our own excitement and achievement, because I feel life is supposed to achieve something, then here such a short time to have the courage of your own feeling. Because where have I had an idea and I followed up? It always worked day and early. Did I let myself down? It's only when I listened to other people saying, well, why don't you try this? And I did, and some it wasn't, you know, I wasn't in tune. Then you see, and this is the whole thing. It's, you may call it flare. You feel things you can't explain it often. And whenever I used to go on a rec key, I used to spend, always a day on my own, going over the race location and watching the light, how it appears in the background. We were going to photograph, I said, that's the early morning shot, definitely. That's a that's a lunchtime shot, because we had to, I had to work back out a scheme to give to the director and production manager how the surety should take place today, and not to lose time, because we know time is valuable costly. So I worked all that out and took stills the same time as well, which I would show to a director. And this is the way professional you work it all out. So everything was thought out in advance, and you know that's the best possible in the way you saw it, achievement, if you got that condition on your side. I always allowed myself to be flexible, because many times you get on location, you suddenly find it start overcast out the rain. So what are you going to do with that? I say, Well, I don't mind shooting in the rain. What's wrong with that? I mean, it's real life. What the hell I mean, as long as we always had with me large beach type umbrellas and top Poland cheese. Thing now to cover over the camera, so that's always secure, so not being Goon or whatever. And many times I said, Well, I can take care of it. I used to have my own graduate because I had made up. I could take care of the skies and shape. The way I want to shape them. This was another great 40 of mine. I learned working on documentaries. I had many weighed up by some ladies and St Johns. Can't remember the names who were experts in making up any type of graduated 30 you wanted. Noel was quite costly for my point, because I had to do it about my own pocket, but it's it's was invaluable to enhance and readjust things to suit the dramatic appeal. And I always remember on many films when I the condition didn't look exciting, and the director used to say to me, you don't need to have to shoot Erwin if you don't happy about as you were. I think I can do it. I put the guide in. I tried it out, looked at it. Suddenly thought it brought in another tone value. And again, as I like to shoot against the light, but the sun setting even when the sun had set in the background and suddenly throw up some patterns in the sky. To me, that was dramatic. And I used to have often just a brooch and folk artists to light up the action and blend them both together. And they were marvelous. Now done this many times on films in Africa and England anywhere, so that my day was stretched to force until it was so dark you couldn't even see anymore, so long as the story allows you to to move in that direction, if you had to match things, obviously, then you couldn't do that, because that would be crazy. But many times, these sort of conditions, and one exploit them brings in something for the firm which stands out. It's it's quite fantastic how nature often gives you opportunities which most people don't seem to see and bother. They always go by routine, by numbers. You see, I never worked by numbers. Same with exposure levels. I went against the book, and I found I got away with it because I understood the speed of a stock and obviously the lens what can be done. And also, many times, if I had any sort of tricky work, I would keep a separate magazine and give instructional laboratory to develop it to hand test. And I told men who I happen to know very well. I made my point to working very close with laboratory I looked upon as my friends, and they liked you to treat them with the respect I gave them and the help which I wanted. Times, actually said many times, look, I think I need perhaps a half minute or a minute longer, because the light was little bit down. Could you do that? Sure, and then I would phone up at 11 o'clock at night after I knew the first testic on sooner I said, Man, laboratory, how is it shaping? Oh, that's fine. We give it 45 seconds longer, you will find it just going to print, just the middle scale. Now, if I hadn't communicated with the laboratory, I would have been in serious trouble, and also I wouldn't have achieved this type of start, which I was suddenly saw in front of me, and I was had to gamble on that PC out gambled most of my life on the best things I ever done is only When I follow this sort of normal you know what you call thinking, which is all right, but it's not what I call it. Has no personality. Life has personality, if you look for it now again, my association always been very close with laboratories, and we have complains time goonism, my battles with Technicolor. When I say, sold back lashes, when they I found they should never sent out. Clashes were so well off
Roy Fowler 9:12
the line this. These were three strip Russia. Said,
Speaker 1 9:16
why you can see the patient, bloody red. I mean, it's disgusting. I said, Why can't you put it on a cooler side of stuff? But it's not right. Just delay the Russians. Just tell them. I said, we can't all waiting for I said, Well, it's too bad. I said, Well, I spoke to producer. I said, Well, please don't let's bully the Labor Party if they have any problems sometimes, allow them a little extra time. What difference it makes if they come to studio an hour later. You know, we see the rushes later on the day, so usually lunch time to have a problem. Why should we make ourselves unhappy and accuse each indeed
Roy Fowler 9:52
poised not to worry. You know, if it's a combination of the perspiration and. Inspiration. What's the balance? Do you think?
Speaker 1 10:03
Well, the balance is to get the results which gives one great personal satisfaction and also which are appreciated by the people you work with, and also to be better on other people. I was loved to be better on the other people.
Roy Fowler 10:27
How much, though, did you rely on your intuition, your instincts, and how much on your rigorous preparation? Because you obviously did both. Well,
Speaker 1 10:37
I think my instinct on the whole was always when I followed it. It always led me in the right direction. Never, I don't think cannot regulate, ever losing out on that. It's when you play safe, when you work on comedies where everything's the same old thing. And I used to drive up the wall, because I know they make money and it was quite fun to work and visually, was nothing
Roy Fowler 11:03
but your your instinct, your intuition, you would always back up with technical preparation, absolutely
Speaker 1 11:09
the technique was there to use it, make use of the tools you have the tools, how you use them.
Roy Fowler 11:15
Did you have a favorite lab? Or did that change from time to time. David
Speaker 1 11:21
light laboratory, laboratory, well, at one time, I had a marvelous association with humves laboratories. A man called Fred Harris used to be in charge of all the ashes, and we had a great rapport. He used to, he used to love my style of lighting. And if the prints were not right, would not allow them leave, leave the laboratory. He said, Erwin, I'm sorry. The principal bit late. I told him to her that we then announced time we reprinted the lot, we made a bloomer. We printed all too dark and whatever, too light to vanish the world, isn't it? Oh, yes. And I was lucky see, because also the Labor Party liked me very much. I worked on films which were great credit for them too. They advertised themselves like shake hands the devil, which was very exciting, visually firm, and they it brought an extra business for them too, by having posters films which were little unusual and looked, you know, very exciting. So, you know, I always had a great rapport the Muslim. We had our battles, and I had many battles, perhaps more of the technical than anybody else, because at that time, they were they, they were the only people. Just they arrogant quite often. And you know, they just say, well, you that's the way we do things as well. I'm sorry in that case, I won't work with you again. That's the case. I speak to George Goon, who was a very great friend and diplomat. He was very upset, you know, to hear about this. And he told him, I look when he's trying to achieve a standard which he wants to stick to and he's asked to support him, don't be so high handed about it. So the other battles I fought many times, and this way, often wondered, if I had been a director, instead of being like a cameraman, I would have had a much less you might see fewer battles. I know you have to battle with your producer, but that's only one person. They say, Boy, you have to fight in all directions and see you in the hands so much of the laboratory sometimes. And
Roy Fowler 13:48
would you always insist on having control over the laboratory, specifying the laboratory?
Speaker 1 13:54
Oh, yes, I made that point. They say was temperamental, but I didn't care what they said behind my backs long stills were fine. I ignore that. But then again, people do respect you for it. And see denim labarges, I had had some very, very nice people working there. We used to see the rushes before I went on the floor at eight o'clock in the morning. Cole was 813, studio, many times to see with the chief grader, the Russian I said to him, don't judge me, Russia, need to readjust. Yes, I get two or three printed before the deeper laboratory. So we had that sort of nice report. I hadn't been there and bothered. He wouldn't have bothered. Of course not. You see the same that means extra work, extra strain. And I don't think most lighting can whatever bother to go to that.
Roy Fowler 14:50
Some some did, some some didn't. Indeed, yes, it's so great. Many I talked just about I didn't accept anything. Laboratory and but as you say, in my experience, the laboratories respected those lighting cameramen, those DPS who took a very, very careful interest in what was going on, who tested the laboratories. Well,
Speaker 1 15:16
that's very fresh your whole career, everything you stand and pause by but comes eventually from the Labor chain. If that's not right, then nobody's aware where the fault lies, you know. And if you know how it should be and you know, then they should adapt that. I mean one or two labors. I won't mention their names. I would never go to on the inside, because I knew from the start they were all pretty rough. Lot they had didn't even understand what you're talking are
Roy Fowler 15:47
we talking of history now? Because do remember, the tape will be heard sometime in the future, not immediately. Yes, I better be very careful what I will be careful. But it would be interesting to know the labs that you rated, and those you didn't like. For example, Humphreys you had a good relationship with. Oh yes, there were and Denham.
Speaker 1 16:07
Denham, see denim and Humphreys. And also were Technicolor, I had a very good report. And also Beva studios, laboratories and Munich were brilliant. See, they really helped enormously. And see it's so important that there's a communication with the laboratory. And I used to often get little presents there in the picture to many people who were collaborating with me. I thought it's only fair to send a bottle whiskey and thank him for his mouth support and people appreciate it. Question of bribe. It's question of being self recognized. People really tried for you, and their life is not always straightforward, because they had many complications. I remember even when I worked for Mexico mayor and how it was then Tommy Howard was then also in charge of labology. And we were shooting a time the summer period. Remember when we saw the rushes, I said to Tommy Howard, privately, I bet the temperature was up in the bathroom, supposed to keep it always certain temperature. Say, Erwin, you're right. I said, because I can go by the sea by the shadows are solid. I'm sorry, we let you down there. I say, well, it's we just get away with it.
Roy Fowler 17:36
This was MGM British. Did they have a studio? Though? Yes,
Speaker 1 17:40
they had a laboratory right there, and he was in charge on who they were, pretty good, but somebody who's supposed to look after that side just didn't bother. They had cups of teas and chats and so on. And not everybody's dedicated and watch things carefully, but it makes a hell of a difference. Was
Roy Fowler 17:59
temperatures, long? Was there a lab or a lab that you wouldn't have sent material to under? Yeah, circumstances,
Speaker 1 18:06
one lab I didn't which was, I better not mention just the name. We won't go into details, but what? K I mean, I always had to mean K, what? Just when I
Roy Fowler 18:16
they weren't serious as a feature lab. Well, they
Speaker 1 18:21
hadn't knowledge, you see, in the feature you take down. And they had some marvelous people there who had a great understanding, appreciation how things should look and how things should be handled. There were two professionals, Humphreys, again, and obviously technical to a certain extent, too, had a lot to offer, and that's with their experience. And I wish to spend quite a long time grading a firm with the chief grader, and discussing things little by little, and getting things readjusted where necessary. You know,
Roy Fowler 19:07
we've not side tracked ourselves, but we've had that discussion that you still have one film left as an operator, and it will lead us into your lighting career. You went to Denham in 39 For on the night of the fire to work for Gunther Trump. Yes, you got the job. Did you? Because again, Gunther English was limited one hand also,
Speaker 1 19:33
I met Brian Desmond house. We got extremely well. And he said, Well, you know, I have this man kindly. He said, I can't understand. He doesn't understand what I'm talking about. Perhaps you'll be kind to not only look after camp, but try and keep that miserable bastard,
Roy Fowler 19:52
who's the producer, by the way, on this, it doesn't matter if it doesn't come easily.
Speaker 1 19:59
Yes. But he was a continental, Chambly Joe. Yes, he was very charming, quiet person. Didn't say much. He didn't want any trouble. But everything go very smoothly, okay? But good. DeCamp was very, very dogmatic. He said to many times teller Kant that it's what he's suggesting is absolutely ridiculous setup, and I don't I'm not going to do it.
Roy Fowler 20:28
He would say that about BDH, yes, both
Speaker 1 20:32
to me in German and I translate. They didn't know what was saying. I said, goodness, things that maybe we ought to consider this purpose set which he thought might suit you better. He said, That's nice idea. I didn't say that he was so I said to Goon to camp. I said, By the way, he likes your suggestion very much. You suggest. Why not do that? He thought it's a very good idea. I'm glad to hear that.
Roy Fowler 21:03
So Gunther was a bit of an old misery was
Speaker 1 21:06
he was all the time, is of a very sincere sense of person, but he is almost fighting everybody. And he was so creative in his way, by using his more than the light sources, painting everything. You had so many maps on there. Often I was had a job to miss them, but I had to pan around off. I like the sudden tea, I said. Ginter said, Don't on my edge. You come. You don't wear this. I said, Well, no, I see so dark, looking to the dance. I said, can't always see it. See it. Can't you give me just like six inches? So All right then. So he moved it back sickly, but no more. He said, it's up to you. Now,
Roy Fowler 21:49
was was this temperament sort of natural, or was it a disappointment because of the way in which their lives had been disrupted? No,
Speaker 1 21:58
he was just made that way. He was a tremendous, great artist, sincere, but technically, 100% German without any sense of humor, didn't give anything any time. Wanted everything his own way only, and treat other people still, they didn't know what the hell it's all about. You know, it's not a right sort of attitude to have. I mean, one should have competence, but should also be a true little tolerance and be a little more tactful. He was never tactful.
Roy Fowler 22:31
He and Brian. Desmond Hurst must have been absolutely chalk and cheese. Oh yes. Tell us about Brian at that stage. Well, Brian was
Speaker 1 22:40
then see Terrence Young was on that film as his personal assistant. Was the first time Terrence Young, who came from the pool, from this foreign office, was a very nice looking chap. And as you know, Brian had been homosexual too, so nobody quite knew it was one of the new boyfriends, but Terence was then a very bright, intelligent young man who wanted to learn that's my first meeting with Terence, and years later, when he made modeling, I didn't mention my thing. I took over the picture when we went to Romania and photographed all locations and studio work in Bucharest, but Brian Desmond Harris that time was one of his established directors. He being typically Irish, he was very colorful in his way of getting things done, and he took the mickey out of the actors. He had a great sense of humor. And he said, Oh, don't ask that silly questions. You know, what you have to do, for goodness sake. And you know, then again, they liked him, and because he had that sort of real Irish flavor, which is, can be very lovable tour. Then again, he, he didn't like anybody got hurt. You know, he was, could be quite vicious, but I got on very well with him. I often try to, again, we look to the camera, see if the setup was, what he what he liked to have. And Erwin, I'm sure it's delicious. You. You just tell your dear friend, and I know I have great comps in you and where you describe the shots, that's fine. He was the lazy director ever known who was sitting his chair, you know, but gave his instructions being comfortable, you know. Did he have talent? Do you think? Well, he had a certain flair that in drama, the story, the story itself was very dramatic. We had Ray Richardson plain leading part down in winyard, who was then one of the English, very established artists, and the rest of the cast do some very strange casting, interesting art. Artists. And he did get out performances from them. And being so bigger than life, you know, the Irish always have that sort of flair and
Roy Fowler 25:14
But technically, he was limited. No, he
Speaker 1 25:17
was, I don't he understood the Emerick didn't want to know about he thought this should leave it to people he had confidence. Then that's what he said. We engaged people were supposed to have talent. Then
Roy Fowler 25:28
when you saw the when, when you saw the Russians together, would he criticize? Oh yes.
Speaker 1 25:33
If he was very generous at times, most generous, very generous. You see lovely Russians, lovely. He could sense right away when things were really better than average. You know, put it that way. And so that's why it was very nice working with a man who appreciated very much the quality of things. And
Roy Fowler 25:57
was he, was he indiscreet with his personal life they later was very notorious.
Speaker 1 26:02
I wasn't. I mean, we all knew that he had his boyfriends on then, and he didn't do too much except Eric Powell used to call him being a coarse type of homosexual, as Eric was more the client type this way, and they didn't like each other for some reason, you know, it's because years later, I was lighting cow man, the mark of Cain and which you also direct, and Eric Porter played a leading part. And they did when they weren't on the same wavelength, because Eric had a sort of certain contempt for him. Eric
Roy Fowler 26:37
Portman was a difficult actor, wasn't he? We'll talk about him when we come to the Canterbury tale, but
Speaker 1 26:43
he was very sensitive person. Didn't say very much. He never saw any tantrums ever. But he had a certain dislike for Brian. Just thought he was very coarse, and he liked capable of fireman. And he also found Michael Powell like a busy sting along and he always loved the way I stood up to Powell, and he said, Don't let Edward get you down, because that would kill your marvelous artistry. And he said, You must never lose that. I said, No, I know how to take care of them. So, yes, I can see that. But he was a I worked on six or seven. Felt good. Eric Parkman later, but Brian Desmond Hirst, I always met up years later, and as I said, we had a very friendly Association, and he did appreciate very much all the work which went into that. And he wrote a very nice letter, which I like to read. Kevin has it because he wrote to to the head of a studio at that time, Alison John, and in that letter, he compared my work, but the top Hollywood light and camera and he worked with before, and he said many nice things about it, and I thought was very nice for him to do that, you know, and it made it feel good to people appreciate you like that.
Roy Fowler 28:30
It prompts a question about Brian Desmond Hurst, was there thought to be any kind of homosexual mafia at that time, or one that's too strong a word, but kind of masonry in the film. It
Speaker 1 28:41
was always done more discreetly, as you know, today, as you know, there's a different ball game altogether, and it was more much more discreet and more refined to certain extent. Because I always remember when we used to have lunch in denim restaurant, and Brian insisted I would be sitting with him and some of the artists, not everybody on that table about homo session, I was the only normal person, and the rest of the unit sitting on the tables always used to smile. So they were very amused, because they knew the situation they're throw up and stuck with a whole lot. I enjoyed being with them, because they're all catted each other. They have all had a bay.
Roy Fowler 29:23
This was crew or cursed. Has no I say, but his table was comprised crew or cast or the art department, for example, apartments all
Speaker 1 29:36
in different and also other units. Who are you? Personally, very well. So gay people got together. Yes, now so you are amazing seeing one person amongst all the coward team. They see about five or six of them. And I was very amusing. I found it very endearing hearing that little tattoo remarks made. And, I mean, take the mickey out of so and so. And being quite you know, and they're kind. Sense of humor too, and they expressive way of saying things. And I found many of the homosexuals I worked with had obviously great ability and talent and a very sensitive and they had to be very careful not to offend them, even one of my crew. He was very nice chap, Eric Besche. He was assistant to me first, and then he became my operator. Later. He was so sensitive, but again, a great artist. And you know, you can't just respect the male people who have those qualities. Never mind if they have different sexual appreciation. This is way some people are made. And it's not a question. Just saying they're sick because they're
Roy Fowler 30:55
not sick, the person who makes it is is more likely to be sick himself.
Unknown Speaker 31:00
Oh, yes. I mean,
Roy Fowler 31:04
there haven't been that I know of that many gay camera people. I remember Eric Besche and Robert krasker. I can't give anyone Bobby
Speaker 1 31:13
Yes has always been Bobby speaking French very well. That's why he and Penny were together for a long time, and he was very helpful to Perry. You see who was, as you know, Mark scale. Man, yes, a great one. And when Bobby Costco lit his first firm, he used to come on a set sometime, just to keep on things was rather nice.
Roy Fowler 31:38
Tell us about Denham in the late 30s, this is the first time you've worked there. Yes, in this picture, Denham
Speaker 1 31:44
had, as you know, was a bit too enormous and long corridors and the rest of it. But same time, it was nice to work a studio where the Britain's greatest talents all worked on different stages. Powell read on one on the other ask with another one part of
Roy Fowler 32:02
perspective, yeah, well, that's a bit later is, yes,
Speaker 1 32:06
the only parts were little bit because it became a big white elephant. One hand is too There was too much going on. But they engaged 1000 people working at Denham studios that time. Then he cut it down, I think just 600 even then it was enormous amount. And the car parks were always full up. And, of course, the goons were very nice and empty. It had a sort of atmosphere, which is, I think is outstanding. I don't think I have a weapon studio in Britain where except me to go May and Elstree was had the ex denim people later on, who, when denim closed down, they moved over which had that quality of they had a stature. They had an approach to things to be like a winning team. They wanted to win. There was a friendly rivalry between the different teams. And, of course, corder being one of the greatest entrepreneurs we ever heard in industry that time, having Churchill under Contact and Sir staph a clips, also being connected with the company, and also Sir David Cunningham, roses production supervisor was also a Man from Marvel's background. See, he mixed with society and also this big business in the city and his I think he took on too much, because he was like a man who made a Rolls Royce car all by itself. You have so many things going on. It was too big for for him. That was not his mentality.
Roy Fowler 34:04
Well, now here you are at denim in 39 quarter is there? What else is shooting that you can remember was I did
Speaker 1 34:14
some work for him. See, I used to know Ned man day well, who does special effects on the things to come, things to come. And he said to me, now, if I was free, could I come and join him on some of the special effects? I said, Yes, I liked her very much. Suddenly, I would say I only worked with Shift and beforehand. And he was the past master. In those days, they paid him 200 pounds a week, which was quite a fantastic salary. And he used to spend most of money on gambling on horses, and was but he was so clever in his way, he worked things out. And I found he had not only great technical knowledge, but he was a. A brilliant in his field who was most outstanding he knew more than anybody else. Did he catalog everything. Everything was done this book, you know, you looked up page so and so stopped down to FH, the camera runs three times the speed for that, because that's the way it must be. Get the movements, right? This one must be five times the speed. Nobody else in this country knew about this ring, but he was the ones I thought, Well, nice to just nip him for a short time, because I had another picture to go to after that,
Roy Fowler 35:31
and I found him, were there special effects done at Denham, or they were done
Speaker 1 35:37
at Denham? See, all sorts of models were built up and things like that. And he knew exactly the scale it had to be designed. And that time, I think Barney Brown was a camera man. I knew they were on the second unit, who designed with that man, the whole sort of layout of it that Cameron menses, I think was the director of the first unit, and he also naturally supervised everything else. See, again, we had many Americans in charge of things there. See, it's, see, at that time, we were all learning, still, you see, and that's basically couldn't have the best special effects in the world coming over to supervise everything, and he knew everything, and he was, didn't keep so secrets, and wasn't telling us it when it's got to be at least three times the speed of this so many times, otherwise, you know it won't go is this is the how the crash will be. This is a shock where the camera is running reverse, because we're going to start this wind. We can't get the lens it coming so fast so it hits you. So the only way to get that effect, we have to run the camera reverse so you start, obviously very close, and the thing drifts away from cameras easier than going towards you. Now, remember that when I filmed the Dam Busters, the one shot where the dogs supposed to be killed before the air raid started. So I did that, remembering what I had heard and learned from that we had that shot in reverse, and it worked beautifully. So denim in those days, I think, was a most exciting studio, in a way, and see all the big stars appeared, like Marlene Dietrich and so on. And Claude Rains came to a studio, and can't remember, bite and, you know, even then, he made so many outstanding films were created,
Roy Fowler 37:54
indeed, you know, I think the fascinating studio, it is one of the greatest in 39 was the, were you aware that the Baghdad was in production?
Speaker 1 38:04
Yes, because at that time, while they were in production, and we knew the war was going to start, and I was still hoping to now move into the being in charge of photography. And I thought also, as I met Sidney bucks, and he said, Erwin, if you don't mind joining me, because I'm going to work with Minister information, if the war, which often, is going to take place, we have to make films for different service departments so on. And as you worked on documentaries, to be just ideal person, we also get the opportunity. Do you not need direct but also photograph be on your own. Then I met Powell social in other people, and it somehow it took me away for time being from even at denim, things were quieting down, with the wall coming up?
Roy Fowler 39:01
Well, I'm trying to get a flavor of the immediate post war period, post pre war period at Denham, when, indeed, the moment war broke out, it all closed down. But Oh yes, specifically, I'm fumbling for what we can remember about the Baghdad, which is a very interesting film, which was in production a long time, had you maintained any kind of friendship with Michael Powell?
Speaker 1 39:30
Well, we always had. After, we worked together. Beforehand, he wrote to me few years later, I think Drew BECTU sold letter copy, which I gave to Kevin, I think was 1940 or soon, and he said, You let me know your your new address. No,
Roy Fowler 39:51
I'm talking about the because Dr Berger started out on that and then for whatever. Reason Mickey Powell took over. I'm curious if you knew anything about the picture while it was in production,
Speaker 1 40:04
too much, because that time I was, I think, way from the studio, you know, getting myself geared up for the for for the war, right?
Roy Fowler 40:15
Well, as I say, I'm talking about the time you were shooting on the night of the fire at Denham. What? What was going on there?
Speaker 1 40:22
See that when I finished night of fire was always on some something else, because that time it wasn't anything else coming in, which was from my point of
Roy Fowler 40:31
view. So during lunch time in the restaurant,
Speaker 1 40:35
I may have just say hello to him, because we, whatever, we were always on very good terms, and he, I think he respected me very much, and that's why, otherwise I wouldn't have had the opportunity to work for him on server fleet. I know I'm going, can't be tell and so on. No, it
Roy Fowler 40:51
is the thief of Baghdad. I'm trying to get information about, well, Thief of Baghdad
Speaker 1 40:55
I saw, not quite well. It
Roy Fowler 40:59
was in production at the studio, but obviously you, you had nothing to do with it. No, you mentioned much earlier, and I said we'd come to it in due course, the fact that Zoe quarter, yes, yes. Was, was a friend, an acquaintance, in Berlin in what the very early 30s or late late 20s, was it? When? When was it? Well,
Speaker 1 41:19
he came and he stayed with us in Berlin in 1929 30, and that time he was trying to get work in Germany. And Alex was the head of a family. He was that time, I think, in America or some other place, or maybe even filming in Vienna, not certain. But Sultan became a great fan of family, because my father knew him very well. And so when Sultan left us, he said, Well, let's hope we meet up. He was going to England. He said, Well, perhaps we meet up sometime. And that time he he was just, you might say, trying to earn a living. He was just as working as a director. Yes, he wanted to become a director, as only through Alex nasheed being charged. And he, he brought him over. And then,
Roy Fowler 42:23
how about his brother? Vincent was quite
Speaker 1 42:25
a strange character, actually. He also mind me, one of us, the Marx Brothers had sideways, and he was a very brilliant designer. And he used to have many arguments with Alec, you know, about sets and things like that. And many times, then Alec would say to him, he felt he wasn't quite right, and he spoke in English. He said, Oh, fuck off, you know, so you don't talking about and then he just mind you being close bothers. They they didn't bear malice to each other, but Vincent was really, I thought, a great designer, no question about it, not because was a bother of Alex, and I'm not sure what he did. He die recent, recently,
Roy Fowler 43:20
not recently, no, some time ago, I said 20 or more years ago, as long as
Speaker 1 43:24
that, because I always had impression was the because, you know, unfortunately, also Zoltan died of cancer. Many years ago, I used to know his wife. She was a daughter of a dentist. Remember? I mind you, they were they were great. They were great family. It's so sad when you look back that they're not here anymore.
Roy Fowler 43:53
Did you know Alex very well? Yes.
Speaker 1 43:54
I mean, we got on very well together, because he knew that Sultan stayed with us in Berlin, and he here himself, used to say, well, he wasn't so sure how long he was going to stay with Denham studio. He said he regretted after this, getting all the finance, 60 million pounds from the Prudential insurance company to build 6 million pounds to build a studio, which was quite fantastic, going back for 9637 or something like that, and he thought is like a white elephant from his point of view. And also some of the productions didn't work out quite as well, because it was when you meet handy the eight he used the small studio, as you know, and was made on a small budget. And moment he came into the bay, big thing, somehow it. He couldn't control it, I think,
Roy Fowler 44:58
Well, maybe he couldn't control. Poland, but he also had to keep it working as it was a very sizable investment with what seven stages don't keep seven stages busy? Reconsider. He also Canterbury long
Speaker 1 45:13
steward, and was spread out. Yes, it was badly designed, yes, and it was he, I think he appreciates that exact more intimate studio than is a vast place. When did you first meet quarter, Alex? That is, well, when I worked at Denham, worked at Brian Desmond house at the time, and he, that time was, you know, floating on there too. And he had his offices at the old house, in the old house. And, you know, he and Salter used to meet up Bay Martin, as I knew sort of so well. It's, you know, we always got a conversation, and we inquired about what I was doing. And he was very naturally ambitious to do films, make films which has sort of British character. You find most of the films he made or tried to make were sort of with a British background, you know?
Roy Fowler 46:13
Well, I think I question that actually, when you look back, there weren't that many with the British background, when you think of night without armor, or Rembrandt, or the private life of Don Juan
Speaker 1 46:29
to go up to Scotland to make the
Roy Fowler 46:34
but that's the ghost goes west, but That's an international comedy. I don't it says it was very, very bad. Well, yes, very carefully aimed at the American market. I mean, but we're not, yeah, I think probably that takes us outside the area that we want to concentrate
Speaker 1 46:53
on international markets. Yes, and to meet in Britain, that's what you
Roy Fowler 46:59
write. He wanted a British Formula, yes, certainly. So Zoltan really was the one with whom you were most close. Oh, absolutely yes. You probably had things in common with Vincent, did you not since he was a painter. Well, see,
Speaker 1 47:13
I didn't, sort of physically, we didn't sort of meet up very much. We said hello to each other when I worked at Denham. Then years later again, and we always sort of met up, and he was always involved with this complicated film. See being a perfectionist as he was, like Alex, was always a big battle. It's always a battle, you know, to to achieve the top.
Roy Fowler 47:44
Did you ever work with any of them in the various passages,
Speaker 1 47:48
except, except for on his, on the on the man, things to come, things to come. And I don't think he was particularly interested in special effects. He was more interested in people themselves. And he always, as I said, he had this marvelous connection with the society, British society, and important people and denim studios, I think, became just the most i.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Speaker 1 0:07
He went to America. As you know, when the war started, many people thought he deserted England. And you know that, then you'll go down so well, you know. And it's left of that flavor for a little while, you know.
Speaker 2 0:29
Well, it said he was on an intelligence mission, and he came back in, what, 1943 anyway, but he, yes, he was away during the tough years,
Speaker 1 0:38
somehow, didn't like it for some reason.
Speaker 2 0:44
Look at Gracie field. She was never, ever accepted back again, again. Was she? She lost her following totally, because it's bombing off like that. Anyway, that's the last in that series of films as an operator. I think Kevin covered the documentary aspect in your war career right in the earlier session, unless you have things to add to that. So really we're talking now about you becoming director of photography on feature films. Yes. How did that come about?
Speaker 1 1:20
Well, Lady of Lisbon was produced by husband and wife, Leslie, hiscot, his cot and his wife. And they saw some of my documentaries, and they were very impressed with it. So they said, well, would I like to join them on this film? So they had Richard Todd, and the director was then Dan Bert, who I met also in document beforehand. So and havlik Allen was the producer. Now I met hablak Allen too, and at Denham occasionally, and so from a start it, they all knew I had certain ability, and I thought it's about time we were prepared to give me an opportunity to express myself, as they used to say. So that went off very well indeed, and I was very pleased to work. And Richard chart was the first time I met him, and Valerie Hobson was the producer's wife that time, say, the leading lady. And there's quite an interesting films, very well directed by Dan Bert, who
Unknown Speaker 2:43
was a very sensitive director. So when I finished, film finished, and I had many other offers coming in, which was silver plate.
Speaker 1 2:57
And I always remember them saying, The wife said, so sad, Erwin, we shall never see you again, because now you, you establish yourself, you, we serve a fleet. We know you. You won't be but ever want to work for us again? I said, No, don't say that. As such, be you been marvelous to me. I said, Erwin, you've got to go very realistic. You're ambitious person and every right to be and you have talent, and you should now aim to what you want to do. But we feel sad because we loved us working together. We had a job with time, a nice team, and there were delightful couple. I felt very sad on one hand to hear this, and then again, it was very true, because luckily, again, things moved in the right direction for me, from a visual point of view, that Powell and Pressburger showed great interest. And then I got involved with silver fleet, as I mentioned you,
Speaker 2 4:06
they hired you for that on the basis of lady from Lisbon.
Speaker 1 4:11
They saw some Russia. They actually Michael Powell. Also remember Gwent on a farm. Anybody can create that sort of atmosphere must be very creative. And also remember our battles when I was Chem operator, and he liked that. Also Berman Stewart, who directed the film for Michael Powell, and person, because they both produced it, who I knew for many years thought, you know, be rather nice. We could work together. And as we had also quite a number of documentary things to shoot in the real submarine. Because now, thank you. They found that if they built a submarine, the studio cost them 1000 pounds. If we go on the real submarine with a few foot. Plus, which I said I could do because of nothing, because the submarine was available. Anyhow, submarine built in the German shipyards, so we were went out filming on location near kings Lynn, and as we're just submerging, the coming time, everything else had us were German U boats, and they were spotted by the RAF, and we were dive bomb for quite a while. We submerged. The submarine was on the on the on the bed of the thing, and he had old explosion around us shot, and they cut off the engine. There. We sat there saying, Gosh, what we going to do? Nothing we can do. They kept sending out messages to the RAF showed, stop the bombings. It's us so. And said number so and so. So things stopped. So when we actually surfaced, and when the COVID tower opened and we came out, I can't tell you the lovely thing of breathing in the clean air and being alive, and we getting so close to being blowing sky high, and we've got some marvelous Results inside the real submarine. I used just PhotoPlus. All I did was changing the bulbs to PhotoPlus so we had little more exposure. And it turned out very well. And we used a real crew again. That's where the document we didn't we only had one, actually two artists as one night was that time blinded because it came back from the hood, which was blowing up and they purchased. The rest were just few of us working inside the summer in no space. Our political camera did the lighting. I had one neck drish with me, who just changed the full bloods over. And I was that. And when the picture came out, it had marvelous reviews, terrific reviews. And some said they had remind of the ulfas. That's where the ULFA technique. I lit it on the line of the German style, and I tried to be very realistic when people were using the lanterns. And I used the lantern itself as the main light source. All I did was put a photo blood inside, but the wire, which you couldn't see, was put the arm of the artists and art of picture, and we just used that sort of technique of realism for using technical opportunities to achieve it from a film point of view. And altogether, it was very nice film to work. And we finished dead on schedule five weeks. I remember the budget was 53,000 pounds, and Michael Powell was very impressed that we could work so fast and get the quality we achieved at her firm. So when that firm finished, she said, Well, Erwin, we're going to make Canterbury tears shortly. How do you feel about that? I'd like to very much Mickey. So then I joined him on Canterbury town, which was from my point of view, having had all this practice on locations, locations and exteriors and English backyards and so on. And it turned out to be enormous success that I critics were very kind. She called me the star of the film. Many times that most wonderful write ups, if you try to write them yourself, you can never improve. So my reputation saw straight up after served it, and can be tell. And many people who saw the film. Was so impressed with it, and it did look nice.
Unknown Speaker 9:05
When did you first meet Emerick Pressburger? Well,
Speaker 1 9:08
Emerick Pressburger, I met, actually, I saw him at Denham when I was there. He he, I think he came off a meeting when he met Michael Powell for the first time in a waiting room somebody and they sort of decided they would like to work together in the future. And I didn't. I lived that time at Hendon Central, and he had a house not far away in green, something green street or something like that in Denham at Epson, Hendon and I met him once or twice over the weekend for dropping for drinks, and he then decided to form a partnership with PA. Michael Powell, this is where the artist was formed that time as a very successful collaboration, I would say, I think one of the most outstanding teams, most creative teams. And Pressburger, I thought was a brilliant writer. He could develop ideas which were quite amazing, and he worked very fast on his scripts. And he was very again, charming. The Hungarian also, Hungarian descent,
Unknown Speaker 10:39
had lived in Berlin too, Oh
Speaker 1 10:40
yes, oh yes. So you had lots in common, absolutely yes, because he was a number. Personally, he was so vastly different to Michael Powell, he wouldn't believe it's possible, but at two great contrasts, and there were like plus and mine is electricity. They all when they were together, they were outstanding when they separate. Eventually, they were not the same force. I tried very hard to get them together again years later, when I worked for other companies, it saddened me to think they should separate, and they were both so obstinate. Each one knew I was right, but they didn't want to
Speaker 2 11:20
do it. Why did they separate? I were probably getting ahead of ourselves.
Speaker 1 11:25
They said to me, the argument was, as they grew older, they became less patient with their difference of opinion. And that was the main thing, really, which I found, is it's, it's was very sad, because how clever David Lean had been. He always used established classics to use them as his. They gamble. They developed their own stories, their own ideas. They were original. Real original. Everything they made was original. They didn't copy things. I mean, I'm not trying to see. David Lean was always clever in picking the top writers, Herber boy, Dickinson and so on. His best firms were definitely there. I mean, he made money in different firms too, which everybody makes sometimes, but Paul and passburger together had established summer star you know.
Speaker 2 12:30
Did you know them, or were you seeing them while Colonel blimp was being made? Oh, yes,
Speaker 1 12:35
because at that time, see when cannon blimp was made. We are just finishing off. Server fleet would go there, arming Moors, running side by side, in a way. And Michael Powell pass back, used to see it. Server
Speaker 2 12:53
was silver fleet based at Denham, or was, was it not at national British,
Speaker 1 12:58
no denim. It wasn't dinner. This, this. The argument was, they couldn't make a film like this, which had a little bunch of denim. So we said, rubbish. Depends how we go about this. And we worked very fast. Even Alfred Young, who designed the sets, said, Look, you only have 3000 pounds in the budget, so he has to leave that many sets to make it something else. I said, Oh, and you have to put a different lighting effect. I said, don't buy Alfred. And it was marvelous to work with, because having been brought up, you know, to develop ideas. So it's not a question of, have you spent a fortune build a set, and we had Powell pieces, and we had cut outs and things like that, and I would light up only certain areas. And in a nutshell, we not only paint on time, budget. So normal success, normal success. So luckily, I started my career as lighting camera man, very quick after lady of Lisbon, going straight up and then getting more in great demand by many companies. How
Speaker 2 14:07
active were they as producers? They wrote the script, didn't they? I suppose Emerick principally wrote the script. Well, the
Speaker 1 14:13
script was more. They supervised the script. Actually, they did quite a lot of work that time, Goon Wellesley, who was a co director to Vernon, Sewell, wrote the script with Vernon together, and then Pressburger sort of gave him a friendly adjustment, but he never took any credit for it. You know, being a part of the archers films, they thought that'd be fine, and they just kept a fatherly eye, but they were so impressed the way the film was made. Efficiency. We shot eight minutes, 16 seconds. Screen time one day was quite fantastic. Normally, people just. Shoot barely two or three minutes, that's supposed to be good, but shoot eight minutes, six and lot of camera work moving, not just static shots, but your camera was all over the place, and we developed a star, which, again, the camera told a story in movements with the lighting them together, and that impressed many people. And as he was a step forward in visual presentation, we used many original ideas in telling a story. Again, I lit it. And also the German style, you know, again, using arcs mixed together. And, you know, this is sort of the art, the verb, very contrasting. And it is very telling. It looked it looked very good on screen. Also brought out nice definition, and it looked real. And the same time also we could be glamorous where we wanted to be glamorous. Who was
Speaker 2 16:06
the operator on it? Operator, yes, the operator. Who was the operator?
Speaker 1 16:11
Cecil Cooney, he was, that time, also very good operator. And Eric Besche was the first assistant who I had the same team for a number of pictures after that, they had a great rapport. I have photographs of them working with me on on that picture and Canterbury tale. And I knew I'm going,
Speaker 2 16:34
well, let's talk about a Canterbury tale. Now, you got that because of silver fleet, yes. When did you come in on that? Had they written it? By the time you were taken on, they
Speaker 1 16:44
always seem to be very fast getting a strips ready, and the strip was ready. And we went on location to Canterbury, and we had some wonderful opportunities and locations all round can be itself. We started actually bigger part in Preston, Guildford and Sir Martha's home, which with all the programs going up the hill, and we had a ramp built, but the camera had to be winched up about two or 300 feet. We had a very long tracking shot. We followed through the forest, and the trees would go past the foreground as the Perkins, all top Chaucer were moving up the hill. And it was a very enchanting sequence. And as they went to the top with her. And there was a little church, I remember. And we actually, I remember I had four or five stop changes to do it, because amongst the trees, I didn't use any lamps, by the way, in that see, they were around about four, five or three, five, something like that. Then as she became the top, it became f8 so Eric Besche had to make a very nice change. Stop change. It was so smooth he didn't notice it. So it was all shot in one going up, unless we had other cuts later on. And was a lovely effect. And I always remember it started things off. Remember Desmond Dickinson, who saw his rushes, and he suddenly saw that truck going up. He was so impressed, he telephoned me one evening. Said, Erwin says it's a masterpiece. Shot. Said, marvelous. How do you do it? And then we had also very shots from up top, where we showed other possible sequence. Then we moved up to Canterbury that I found been chanting and inspiring outside and everything connecting up with Canterbury in the round Canterbury, and that we shot in a little wheel rights by documentary training again? Yes, I remember that sequence, and you know that again, had something about which people thought they looked so real and exciting. I said, I didn't want to do built in studio, I said. I said, Please forget me. I can handle this. I said, Fine, okay, we save on a budget. You only got a tight budget, only 3000 pounds. So you just shoot as much as you can, and we just pick up the things which you can't get. And anyway, we moved to Denham. He said to me, Alfred young, can you handle ceilings? Because this interior, but the all the ornate ceilings and the stars would be just marvelous if you can light it. I don't want to put it on, Alfred, you just put whatever you think helps the iPad weighs me. Just let me little corners where I can hide the lights and you know. And use this and that. So we had a great rapport together.
Speaker 2 20:05
How much was studio and how much location? Some, I
Speaker 1 20:10
would say, you might say 60% at least location and 40% is studio. The
Speaker 2 20:16
impression after 40 years or more that one retains is of one of those enormously bright, sunny Summers is, was that true? Were they the conditions in which you show Yes,
Speaker 1 20:28
we because we wanted to keep it. And that's all start to be into English countryside, of the artists, very best, you know, and best conditions and sort of being romantic, so modern, Canterbury Chaucer, we knew was the original story, and this is where the Pressburger was very clever. The only part which people have said it was the glue business in the story when, when the glue man was about and put glue in the head,
Speaker 2 21:07
it's distasteful, I think even even more so now, because the thing that comes over in the film is Someone's distaste for women. I mean, it's all, yes,
Speaker 1 21:21
Eric Portman didn't mind that, for some reason he looked always strange. And being a sort of sense of artist who didn't have to be directed, he sensed things right away, and I found we had a great rapport. Eric wrote me some very nice letters when the film finished and he was himself ensored With what he saw, honestly, he felt it had an atmosphere which was unique. And again,
Speaker 2 21:56
well, there is atmosphere. And visually, it's a very interesting picture to look at the performances, I think, generally, very boring. Well, see
Speaker 1 22:04
he had see originally Deborah Carr was going to play the leading part. Then Michael Powell decided to marry Frankie, who we known for many years, which I certainly miss Carr. That's what she immediately withdraw. So then Sheila, your present wife of Attenborough, was given the chance to play in the picture. And Mickey said, Now look, we have casting trouble. Make a test on her. Spend the whole day on her, with her, see, see if you feel she can play this part, we wouldn't interfere, just get it. So I spent the whole day with her in the studio, on the set, and we went through all sorts of things. And I was just talking to her and make her feel very relaxed. Knew the tests were the best, far better than what she appeared in the firm with Michael Powell, because she was more like she was so tense working with a man, and she was terrified, I'm sure during the making of playing this part with Powell, attitude rather sarcastic, you might say, feeling about things. Why
Speaker 2 23:30
did he do it as the director? Did he feel? Was it the autoprevincier syndrome that if you're on prison or Noel?
Speaker 1 23:41
I think persons impurity complex, but I think see when we speak to him privately and you know him, he can be very civilized, but he has these moments of being quite like Jake and Hyde, quite nasty, unpleasant, actually, quite a smile. And what he did do to me with we'll talk about, yes, it's terribly sad. His
Unknown Speaker 24:11
autobiography,
Speaker 1 24:15
I'm sure you've read bit of it, because so much is distorted. So I was
Speaker 2 24:20
going to say that seems to me, it's inaccurate and distort Absolutely because, see, and again, it's Mickey Powell, who is the star of it. See, he
Speaker 1 24:31
was trying to get his own back on me because he knew I had contempt for him. After the other Powell over episode was absolutely disgraceful, and many people film this who know the facts that not only shocked have despised them for it. Well,
Speaker 2 24:54
as I say, we'll come to that in due course. I. So Emerick seems to be a somewhat elusive character. Is that a shy person,
Speaker 1 25:07
right? See, he was more the time you see, Mickey had the limelight. Was always the man one bit of sword going to battle. Emerick was the brains, not only story wise, but also business players. And he always had to undo some damage, which Michael Powell did at time, and smooth things out. Being a diplomat and highly civilized person, gent person,
Speaker 2 25:36
I think that's a good word, civilized culture. Oh yes,
Speaker 1 25:40
absolutely is a very gentle person. He's very strong. Personally, he would be very firm about things, and he handled the management they were. And John Davis, who was then the head of a studio, always had battles with them, and that was not a very happy relationship, because John Davis, Well,
Speaker 2 26:08
John Davis, again, is later, I think, has he taken over yet at the time of Canterbury Taylor,
Unknown Speaker 26:14
I think he was in a sort
Speaker 2 26:17
I think he was, he was there, but he wasn't there. He wasn't the big boss, was he? But
Speaker 1 26:21
he was still, you know, dropping, you know, hence, yeah, and sound the atmosphere overnight. Never happy atmosphere. See, Arthur rank didn't mind. I mean, he only wanted to make good films which would get the American mark. See, that's the reason he put in all the finance. Is hopefully that the firms were good enough to go on American market and make some money for the company too and big. But yes, the Americans took the fall, right? They had no intention to push British firms at all. You know, not for very long time. And they would say, Why should we build up a British pharmacy? We have our own exactly so, you know, and you know, it's too bad if you want to build big studios, let them do it.
Speaker 2 27:11
They've never had any intention. They still have no intention of why.
Speaker 1 27:15
Coward try at least get some stars over. Names were well known, even Marley Dietrich didn't have them too much to that extent. But see coming back to Emerick Pressburger, I thought he was a genius in his own way. Admired his style, and especially in Iowa, I'm going I thought I saw it again on television. But very long ago, it hasn't dated even when it was made. Over 40 years ago, it had an atmosphere. And again, that film, as you know, we shot in the Isle of mile called Black and Whirlpool and other places where it had the sort of atmosphere of great, great feeling about it. We went to coward like in four times the world Powell. And if we knew the world Powell?
Speaker 2 28:14
Yes, I know the film very well. Yes, I don't know the, I don't know we
Unknown Speaker 28:19
took a, took a head of a list, because
Speaker 2 28:23
we one thing at a time. Yes, still on Canterbury tale or Emerick. Was Was he ever present on the floor, on the set? I mean, did he contribute to direction that
Speaker 1 28:38
you were aware of? No, he kept away. He saw the rushes, obviously, often himself, you know, before we saw the units, sort of right. And then again, actually would discuss with Michael park, but he always avoided any sort of arguments. They always had.
Speaker 2 29:00
Mickey was the present on the satellite. Was there ever any thought or consideration to, you know, to shooting it in color?
Speaker 1 29:11
No, not that time. Because, for some reason, color was not always necessarily chosen as being the right thing, because they felt also the extra cost sometimes was didn't want saying they say, well, it looks so nice and Canterbury tale, why don't we do anyone wearing black and white? I mean, it's a dramatic story. See, people always, well,
Speaker 2 29:39
I'm talking off Canterbury Tale, which, because of the exterior, would seem to me to maybe have suggested color. Mind you, the Technicolor cameras were very difficult to get hold of,
Speaker 1 29:51
the way cumbersome. Technicolor had it for many years, a handicap. You had to have a bloody big bullet Bush needed a clean or. Form strong men to lift it up and put on the setting up. But the operation was murderous.
Speaker 2 30:05
The color pictures were being consistently made. The problems that they were were solved.
Speaker 1 30:11
But it seemed that many people didn't always feel is if it's worked for the government. Black Michael song with that people had still two minds about things. You could argue one way or the other against it. I had this happen to me many times you can't be making color. Erwin is dramatic subject, and we prefer in black and white. It's much more exciting than in color. And this is, again, their sort of, their viewpoint.
Speaker 2 30:46
Would your preference have been for color or for black and white? Well, I
Speaker 1 30:50
always felt that every firm should be in color, because all painters painted in color, only dealer made things in black and white, maybe one or two other you we see things in color. We can see things also dramatic in color. You can get color to look very dramatic. That's not true. What they say depends how you use it. But people always talk in formulas, make statements which are not always correct to make an impact. And the so many people are except depends on the personality says that I personally think that everything should be shot in color, and a very few pictures, even, despite my having had some marvelous luck in black and white, because we it's not real. It's not a real it's not a real element, really,
Speaker 2 31:54
no, it became a convention that was accepted and mostly stunning work was done in black. Oh, yes, don't question about it. I
Speaker 1 32:05
remember when I met Greg told and he came to England, and here now I got two lighting cameramen who, at the same time, unaware of each other, start on deep focus photography. I didn't know he was going to work on deep focus. And I know I'm going. I started with deep focus photography on certain sequences which I felt should be shot in deep focus. When I mentioned that to Michael power, he said, Well, Erwin, if you can handle it, sounds. Sounds very interesting a steward, and this is where, again, as I said, you can argue about black and white in color. I still think that color should be the first choice, even having had lot of black and black and white
Speaker 2 33:06
right on Canterbury tale, were there any particular technical challenges or interpretive requirements that we
Speaker 1 33:19
sort of mood in the interiors, particularly in the inside the trailer when she returns. And so, you know her was full of moss, and it was emotional, saying that her the past he thought was killed at that time, and then we discovered a story that he was still alive, and so the blessing she did get later on, we discovered a story that the person was engaged to is to the other father saw her and told her about it. And also in the studio we have when, when they had the lecture to us. I tried to keep that in a very strange way, to where Portman appears in that quite number of fact sequences which I sort of created in my own star, which Powell were much like the lecture. One, for example, that's all your silhouette, yeah, against the light behind him, things like that that wasn't scripted. No, oh no. Nothing was See, all my visual presentation were never from a script my own. I was given a free hand. Was sounds terribly concealed by nearly every director worked with the company, you interpreted your way. And always, I was always disgusting in advance. I didn't want to be here by a high handle. Is not my nature. I said, you feel that if we shot this as a night sequence for the day, I said, going through the skirt. It. I think it's better than being night and day, because it gives a nice change, a nice change of impact. I said, Yes, let's do it that way, or make it dawn or dusk. Whatever had
Unknown Speaker 35:11
Powell developed visually since what was it called the I can't remember the title of that film. You would? You mean behind the mask? The man behind the mask? Yes,
Speaker 1 35:23
well, he had obviously advanced quite a lot, because having met also called, I think called influenced him to certain extent. Meeting Pressburger was really gave him,
Speaker 2 35:40
well, pressburgers contribution was not visual, was it? It was literary culture.
Speaker 1 35:45
He gave you, gave the way. He wrote his sequences, chance interpreted in a visual way, expected you did. He didn't want to be inside and put down. He just put on day or night, on dorm, whatever it is, or stormy, Storm ahead, whatever. Then you cut to the ceiling, and you hear the sound effects, and camera pans down. And, you know, in another ball game, I mean, he had, he gave you indications of, he was a screenwriter where you can and, you know, he never interfered at once, nor did Powell. When I did anything at all, he always left him to me completely
Speaker 2 36:28
well, I'm trying to figure out what precisely Michael Powell brought to a film, because visually, he usually had an extremely effective cameraman. He had tower of strength. Alfred younger, yes, who gave it that yes, visual framework. And Pressburger, who provided very tight, interesting, civilized scripts. It's really curious what Powell precisely did.
Speaker 1 36:59
Well, I think he he indicated, always the visual side in such a way that you is always up to you to to to develop it further, see if it's not indicated, and you can say, well, this, perhaps he wants to be straightforward. He always indicated, always something more behind that. It's for you to as a creator, as a filmmaker now to put that on the screen and use your interpretation.
Speaker 2 37:27
So do you think Powell counts as a highly original filmmaker or not? Well, I
Speaker 1 37:32
would say that he has got because of his daring attitude and pushing often, people to do things which I never thought they could do. In my case, I did things which I never thought I could do. I was sometimes pushed because of his attitude. And I thought I show him. And again, he was generous enough to to give me the free hand, you see? And I said, Don't do it. When I said to him many times when we had back projection and law was more to do on either one. Goon, he said he was dreading at I said, Well, Mickey, I think I got the answer. I hope to have the answer. What is that? Erwin, I say, I shoot in deep focus. Can you do that with that all clapped out equipment? I say, Well, it's the only way otherwise go and look what it is and be dead loss. And that's how my deep focus started on that projection, and I insisted that we had the biggest stage at Denham, which was stage four, or stage four, and we had the longest throw from the projector, because that time it was very uneven light on the screen. So that's about 90 feet away. And then we were away shooting everything with a three or four inch lens, not the normal 50, and then stopping down, otherwise bring him together, losing, losing the hot spot, taking a bunch of light, and then stuffing down, sometimes for even 16 after 11,
Unknown Speaker 39:15
then you had enough light from the projector.
Speaker 1 39:19
No, I just pushed it, and by using this technique of bringing in telephoto lenses which never know would ever this came to me suddenly as an idea which I felt had to be used. When I said to Michael Powell, Mickey, I think this is the only way. So he said, Let's do it.
Speaker 2 39:41
What did that give you? That gave that that softened the projected image, the back plane. It
Speaker 1 39:47
first was it flattened. First of all, it didn't the whole. First of all, I had the whole screen. Coward in the picture, not just use part of it as far as possible. I. Then I made sure that the light was even on the screen. Then by using the three or four inch lens in the fall on the camera to marry together and then stopping down that the screen and the artist position were both in focus, and that was my secret, which was never attempted by anybody. So far as I know. I don't think they did to step down as I did. I did all by eye, not by meter. There weren't any light meters available then liable enough. And anyhow, how are you going to measure and to blend together the picture with the foreground and the right exposure level, which
Unknown Speaker 40:45
sequences were these,
Speaker 1 40:48
coward back in, all the ropes, the whole lot, everything. And I shot the backgrounds myself on location, so I had the right sort of backgrounds, the way I saw it, and shot a certain type of light, so it gave me an opportunity to follow through. And I lifted, you know, in sort of side lights and things like that, and let things, the shadows, be dark and so on. And gave it, the whole atmosphere, a very strange atmosphere, no flat lighting. I'd make sure that all light was masked off the screen. Whatever we did do, there was no strain, like even the overheads. The studio lights were killed, so it was all completely clear, sharp and I stopped on down the camera, as I said, between the wireless opening was five, six or six, three to F 11, seen one or two shots to 16 was unheard of, nearly of impossible. We got it as we had a squall and all the other effects of this, you know, the whole mood of visual, but violence, Whirlpool and so on. It just blended together. And I didn't get the grain either, which was quite remarkable.
Speaker 2 42:14
We've jumped into, I know where I'm going. Have we finished? What do you think with Canterbury tale? Is there anything more you want
Speaker 1 42:21
to tend to be chair that it was a very satisfying firm was very important to me, because the biggest firm I've tackled as a lighting camera man, something I loved. Had lots of experience on location, work on documentaries and other firms, which I learned so I made all be good use on all the documentaries I made, like went to my farm, so and so I knew I had this affinity with reality, and I knew how to find, find it. Many people just ignore it. I always search for it and find it because I wanted to find it because I went past it too much to me. It gave me personal satisfaction to be involved with something which I was in great sympathy with and as I always loved this country and scenery and the architecture here and the people in those days, there was something so inspiring this year, it carried me forward. I never worked by rule books.
Speaker 2 43:35
Well, Canterbury tale got clobbered in many respects by the critics, didn't it, but you, you very few. If I think the story was generally I did happen.
Speaker 1 43:50
Very much. Hope you can read, because you will see the majority were enchanted by it. They ignore. They did passing they said, the glue business, little nonce and so on, so on. Then again, there was a recent review in the television program paper where they gave it a marvelous review. Oh,
Unknown Speaker 44:18
it's now been rehabilitated.
Speaker 1 44:22
How much admired the whole visual impact and so on, and they thought it had a little good quality about it. Well,
Speaker 2 44:32
we now have a perspective on, I think all the archers, Colonel blimp, for example, caused great political problems at the time. The war indeed tried to have it then. But now we can say, I that's always fascinated. Yes, I right. From 1943 on, brilliant
Speaker 1 44:54
people don't get that, man. Well, that's I agree. With him absolutely. It's a tragedy that that man, last few years have been miserable years he wasn't was hard up, eat out a little existent, a little cottage in Norfolk Park, and man who was such a great genius completely ignored. You know, it's sad.
Speaker 2 45:25
Well, I agree. I agree. We, we wanted to interview him, and I made contact with the people up in it was in Suffolk, not Norfolk, and they said, by that time, he was just out of it, he'd lost, he'd lost his memory, and he sat and watched television all
Speaker 1 45:46
day, when you know your lifetime. And I met him many times since then, I could see him deteriorating fast, and it's
Speaker 2 45:58
well, this is why I wanted to try and establish the balance between the two. I think it's generally well known, but Michael Powell is such a publicity hug. Yes, he generates so much self publicity. And as you say, Emerick was so retired, yeah, creative mind. So I think, for the record, we should really
Speaker 1 46:19
it's, it's, it will be unjust to ignore him and not to give him some credit, because, you know, when you give so much as he has done and helped, also other people like drew myself be part of his design. And you know, it's only fair.
Speaker 2 46:42
Well, you came out of Canterbury tale with very good notices. Oh, yes. And Did, did I know where I'm going follow immediately, or did you You did nothing else in between?
Speaker 1 46:53
I think on the list. Did I do another picture? I can't remember. Well, not,
Speaker 2 46:58
not here, not on this list. No, it. It goes straight into, I know where I'm going. We may have, you may have made documentaries, or some
Speaker 1 47:11
can't familiar with so many things, right? You can't remember the board.
Speaker 2 47:16
Well, let's assume that it was, I know where I'm going. How did that come about? Obviously, because can't retail to some extent. Well, it
Speaker 1 47:25
was such a great success. And even before I can't be till finished, Emerick said to me, we should be working on, I know I go. And it was only one sheet of once full skeptic idea, and he was going on location to hunt, to smile. He said, Would I like to come join him and Mickey while we're looking around? I said, Yes, I would love to. So we was a very quick whirlwind, who looked at various places and said, This is nice. That's fine. The world pool is fine, and so on. When we came back, within six weeks, had to look on screenplay. That's the national at the meantime, they already started engaging artists and so on. And when the Hillier came into this because, again, they were trying to get a debit card. She wouldn't want to know, because that time, Mickey married, and she was very upset, because, you know, she was through from Canterbury. Control so they were stuck with the leading ladies. So again, I had a phone call. I said, Erwin, there's an actress called similar to your name, Wendy Hillier. She's coming down the studio. And we mentioned Alfred young, get you set and spend the whole day with her. We won't be around. Just see what you think. See what if she has any visual any problems, because this is a very important part, as you know, and we don't want to make any mistakes. So she came down, and she was very anti firm altogether. When I spoke to I could see she didn't sort of like feel that ease with us. Let
Unknown Speaker 49:33
me stop you then you
Speaker 2 51:09
This is Erwin Hillier, side seven. Erwin,
Speaker 1 51:13
in the background. We were going to photograph us yet. That's early morning shot, definitely. That's a that's a lunchtime shot, because we had to, I had to work back out a scheme to give to the director and production manager how the surety should take place today, and not to lose time. Because. this point now in the late 30s You're on the brink of becoming a director of photography, and is a very thoughtful young person, how are you. that? To what extent is your looking for your own personal style, a matter of experience and a matter of theory? Well, it sort of becomes a part of oneself, you know, when having had from a very young age, contact with all the things which are always quite exciting. That's why I felt in photography, the range is enormous, and it's a question of personal interpretation. You can take 50 lighting camera and take it on one set, so you light it over, light it differently. You very rarely get the same reaction. To me, it was a self expression and accumulated all this knowledge and a love of photography in the visual side and camera movements and compositions, to me, a composition is the most important thing. Is why great strength? Having been a young painter who unfortunately didn't take it up as a career that I was was very good in composition, it was my great strength. And when you compose a shot or movement of shot, it's design encourages, it brings into effect all the exciting things you can do. And I don't like orthodox photography, straightforward or comedy over lit out, I had to photograph comedy. Everything's front light. Hate that side lighting was and against the lights were my sort of or you would take the painter, Rembrandt star V shape, the composition V shape I learned enormously from Rembrandt star, which I admired in my young days. I always try to to to use them as my sort of inspiration. So all together, having this sort of taste for it and love for it, and want to do something which is different, not just to show off to people, just from our own excitement and achievement, because I feel life is supposed to achieve something when here such a short time to have the courage of your own feeling. Because whereby I had an idea and I followed up, it always worked. Then in I let myself down. It's only when I listened to other people saying, well, why don't you try this? And I did. And some it wasn't, you know, I wasn't in tune. Then you see, and this is the whole thing. It's, we call it flare. You feel things you can't explain it often and whenever I used to go on a rec key, I used to spend, always a day on my own going over the raised location and watching the light, how it appears We know time is valuable costly, so I worked all that out and took stills the same time as well, which I would show to a director. And this is the way professionally to work it all out. So everything was thought out in advance. And you know, that's the best possible in the way you saw it, achievement, if you got that, the condition on your side. I always allowed myself to be flexible, because many times you get on location, you suddenly find it's not overcast out of rain. So what are you going to do with that? I say, Well, I don't mind shooting in the rain. What's wrong with that? I mean, it's real life. What the hell I mean, as long as we always have with me large beach type burles and tar Poland cheese thing now to cover over the camera, so that's always secure, so not being ruined or whatever. And many times I said, Well, I can take care of it. I used to have my own graduate authors because I had made up I could take care of the skies and shape them the way I want to shape them. This was another great 40 of mine. I learned working on documentaries. I had many made up by some ladies and St John's can't remember the names who were experts in making up any type of graduate authority you wanted. Noel was quite costly for my point because I had to do it about my own pocket. But it's it was invaluable to enhance and readjust things to suit the dramatic appeal. Now, I always remember on many films when I condition didn't look exciting, and the director used to say to me, you don't need to have to shoot Erwin if you're not happy about I said, Well, I think I can do it. I put the guide in. I tried it out, looked at it suddenly thought it brought in another tone value. And again, as I like to shoot against the light, but the sun setting, even when the sun had set in the background, and it suddenly threw up some patterns in the sky. To me that was dramatic. And I used to have often just to light up the action and blend them both together. And they were marvelous. Now done this many times on films in Africa and England anywhere, so that my day was stretched to was until it was so dark you couldn't even see anymore, so long as the story allows you to to move in that direction. If you had to match things, obviously, then you couldn't do that, because that would be crazy. But many times, these sort of conditions, and one exploit them, brings in something for the firm which stands out. It's it's quite fantastic how nature often gives you opportunities which most people don't seem to see and bother. They always go by routine, by numbers. You see, I never worked by numbers, same with exposure levels. I went against the book and I found I got away with it because I understood the speed of a stock and obviously the lens, what can be done. And also, many times, if I had any sort of tricky work, I would keep a separate magazine and give instruction laboratory to develop it to hand test, and I told man who I happened to know very well. I made my point to working very close with labology. I looked upon as my friends, and they liked you to treat them, but the respect I gave them and the help which I want at times, I should say it many times, look, I think I need perhaps a half minute or a minute longer because the light was little bit down. Could you do that? Sure, and then I would phone up at 11 o'clock at night after I knew the first little testic on sooner, I said, Man, how is it shaping? Oh, that's fine. We give it 45 seconds longer, you will find it just going to print, just the middle of scale. Now, if I hadn't communicated with the laboratory, I would have been in serious trouble, and also I wouldn't have achieved the type of start which I was suddenly saw in front of me, and I was had to gamble on that. You see, I gambled most of my life on the best things I've ever done is only when I follow this sort of normal you know what it called thinking, which is all right, but it's not what I call it. It has no personality. Life has personality, if you look for it now again, my association always been very close with laboratories. I may have complains to our grand my battles with Technicolor when I say so bad lashes when they I found they should never send out were so well off the line
Speaker 2 1:00:22
this. These were three strip Russia. Said,
Speaker 1 1:00:26
why? You can see the faces of bloody red. I mean, it's disgusting. I said, Why can't you print it more on a cooler side of stuff? But it's not right. Just delay the Russians, that's term. I said, we can't all waiting for I said, Well, it's too bad. I said, Well, I spoke to producer. I said, Well, please don't let's bully the Labor Party if they have any problems, sometimes, allow them a little extra time. Whatever does it make come to studio an hour later? You know, we see the rushes later on the day, so usually lunch time to have a problem. Why should we make ourselves unhappy and accuse each indeed
Speaker 2 1:01:02
points not to worry. You know, if it's a combination of what perspiration and inspiration, what's the balance? Do you think?
Speaker 1 1:01:13
Well, the balance is to get the results which gives one great personal satisfaction, and also which are appreciated by the people you work with, and also to be better on other people. I always loved to be better on the other people.
Speaker 2 1:01:36
How much, though, did you rely on your intuition, your instincts and how much on your rigorous preparation, because you obviously did both
Speaker 1 1:01:46
well. I think my instinct, on the whole was always when I followed it. It always led me in the right direction, never. I don't think Can I regulate ever losing out on that is when you play safe, when you work on comedies where everything's the same old thing in August to drive me up the wall, because I know they make money and they were quite fun to work and visually, was nothing
Speaker 2 1:02:12
but your instinct, your intuition, you would always back up with every technical preparation.
Speaker 1 1:02:19
Absolutely the technique was there to use it, make use of the tools. You had the tools, how you use them?
Speaker 2 1:02:25
Did you have a favorite lab? Or did that change from time to time? Favorite light laboratory?
Speaker 1 1:02:31
Laboratory? Well, at one time, I had a marvelous association with hobbies laboratories. It's a man called Fred Harris. Used to be in charge of all the ashes, and we had a great rapport. He used to, he used to love my style of lighting, and if the prints were not right, would not allow them leave, leave the laboratory. He said, Oh, I'm sorry. The principal bit late. I told him to have that be then announced time we reprinted the lot. We made a bloomer. We printed all too dark and whatever too light the vanished world, isn't it? Oh yes. And I was lucky see, because also the Marty liked me very much. I worked on films which were great credit for them truly advertised themselves like shake hands the devil, which was very exciting, visually firm, and they it brought an extra business for them too, by having process films which were little unusual and looked, you know, very exciting. So, you know, I always had a great rapport the Muslim. We had our battles, and I had many battles, perhaps more of the technical than anybody else, because at that time they were they, they were the only people just they arrogant quite often. And you know, they just say, well, you that's the way we do things. I said, Well, I'm sorry in that case, I won't work with you again. That's the case. Now, since he speaks to George Garner, who was a very great friend and diplomat, he was the upset to hear about this, and he told him, I look when he's trying to achieve a standard which he wants to stick to and to support him. Don't be so high handed about it. So the other battles I fought many times, and this way, often wondered, if I had been a director, instead of being light in camera, man, I would have had a much less you might see fewer battles I know you have to battle with your producer, but that's only one person. They say, Boy, you have to fight in all directions and see you on the hands so much of the laboratory sometimes. And
Speaker 2 1:04:57
would you always insist on having a. Control over the laboratory, specifying the laboratory. Oh
Speaker 1 1:05:03
yes, I made that point they say was temperamental, but I didn't care what they said behind my back. So instead of fine, I ignore that. But then again, people do respect you for it. And see general labor artists, I had had some very, very nice people working there. We used to see the Russians before I went on the floor at eight o'clock in the morning. Cole was 830 studio many times to see with the chief grader the Russian I said to him, don't just need to readjust. Yes, I get two or three printed before the deeper laboratory. So we had that sort of nice report. I hadn't been there and bothered, he wouldn't have bothered, you see, the same that means extra work, extra strain, and I don't think much of a bother to go to that. Some,
Speaker 2 1:05:59
some did, some some
Speaker 1 1:06:04
didn't, indeed, but
Speaker 2 1:06:11
as you say, in my experience, the laboratories respected those lighting cameramen, those DPS who took a very, very careful interest in what was going on, who tested the laboratories. Well, that's very fresh your
Speaker 1 1:06:26
whole career, everything you stand and pause by what comes eventually from a laboratory. And if that's not right, then nobody's aware where the fault lies, you know. And if you know how it should be and you know, then they should adapt that. I mean, I wanted to boys. I wouldn't mention names, I would never go to on the any side, because I knew from the start they were all pretty rough. Lot they had understand what you're talking are
Speaker 2 1:06:56
we talking of history now? Because do remember, the tape will be heard sometime in the future, not immediately. Yes, I better be very careful what I will be careful, but it will be interesting to know the lie.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Roy Fowler 0:01
Oh, Hillier side nine. Yes. So Hillier, Hillier came down to the yes, she
Speaker 1 0:07
came to studio. And when I saw her the very first time, and she was kept talking at me about things, I didn't listen too much, because I don't know how we could present you. And I tried one or two lights, and I could see it was just looked very ordinary, waste of time. I know it would just be a failure. So suddenly, I tried a very high tea light, and having these were Epstein features and way she can look at times without while you're talking to her and you're quite interested, the high key light seemed to do something. So I had many shots during the day talking to her, and she was reacting naturally. We didn't take any sound, but that's to get the visual impact alongside show when we finished the day. Next day, they were running the tests in town, in the theater, and Wendy went along. I didn't go because I was that time doing something else. And apparently they were very impressed. They couldn't believe it. They said, gosh. And she herself said, I didn't realize, you know, it's, I wasn't very nice to him as studio, and I treat him more or less, you know. So, you know, just a waste of time. It's marvelous. So Emerick said, well, and make it shape the parts yours. If you feel you can actually work. I love to do that. And she always looked upon from people as Fauci mind. She's right at certain extent. Well, I
Roy Fowler 1:49
was going to ask you about that. Did she say much about why she was so unhappy about pictures? Partly because she began with Pygmalion, which is, after all, a rather nice picture. And she had civilized people on that. But then came major Barbara. And both, of course, she had Pascal as,
Speaker 1 2:10
I mean, he's the, he's the biggest for the biggest of the more, yes, the definitive one, she was definitely very anti, anti firm people, and they've post stage, you know, and whatever his Pascal
Roy Fowler 2:23
a name, by the way, we should remember. And come back to, did you ever have any dealing with Gaby? He
Speaker 1 2:27
came on the set a few times, and he was always trying to show off to us.
Roy Fowler 2:35
And I know where I'm going. Yes, he was he possessive about Wendy Hillier, no,
Speaker 1 2:40
he just came along just to look at things. So I said to my chapter said, close the eye piece when he looked down through the camera and he looked through it, he pretended, oh, Marvel, I said, I thought. I said, What a phone. He didn't, couldn't see a thing. So then again, he was done starting a shoot, and I suddenly had a message through from the production supervisor, Tom White. I said, Erwin, I played half you have to lose half your lights. I said, why? Gabby Pascal wants them? I say, Oh, that's too bad you can't have one of them. Then I get lost. You know what we have that we need? Otherwise, I speak to Mickey Powell about this, because this is unheard of, because he was looking after the other pictures were,
Roy Fowler 3:26
this was Caesar
Speaker 1 3:28
so, so I just said, well, that said, not one life will leave for him. That in cheek, absolutely. Why should I give him? But when we needed we had to be covered for all the number of sets we had, you know, it's not a question. Using all one set you want to have to everything you rigged up in case the director decides to change from one to the other. Suddenly, without, you know, there's always some emergency. Do
Roy Fowler 3:54
you remember the sets, though, on season Cleopatra? Stunning sets? Yes. I mean, there were no question huge too. Oh yes, you can see why you wanted every arc in the country. Oh yes,
Speaker 1 4:06
of course you did. And at that time, I mean, studio was, you know, geared to quiet. But then again, I was going a bit too far. So I met you once or twice after that, and I was never impressed. He was rather Bulgar type person, and he, I don't know how he managed to get because I met Shaw, or I forgot to mention to you, I made a term with Shaw during a coronation period. But he at John drink water's house in hamster. We used John drink water's house in tear. And we had bernstraw appearing in that film. And I always remember he was very was 1937, or 38 or something like that. And. And Johnny, and lighting camera operated for him. And I didn't, don't think I mentioned that well at sea, because he was quite a strange character. He used to ride by tube, even company were had a laid on the rolls. Royce for him. Is it? Boom, like that. He just came on foot and was very, you know, unobtrusive person. I liked him very much. Had a great sort of biting sense of humor. They I got a stone star at home where he had his little, fluffy, interesting face. But he's quite an endearing person
Unknown Speaker 5:43
and a very highly intelligent, course, great sense of humor, very biting sense of humor, but the same time, very humble person. Didn't throw his weight around, and he's very appreciative and very nice person.
Roy Fowler 6:03
Right back to I know where I'm going, and Wendy Hillier is cast. Roger lives, he was first choice.
Speaker 1 6:12
Yes, he was first choice because he got on quite well by Mickey. And it had that difference of opinions, but they always resolved everything in a civilized way. And Audra, he was an enchanting person, but he couldn't come with us on location because he was tied up on a stage. And so we decided to get a double. Now. We found a double who physically resembled him, and he spent a week with him, going through and taking on all his characteristics, which he would hold a pipe and left hand. He would walk slightly with this to one side, and things like that. And this double was marvelous, where he knew exactly how to move, and he turned his head away just enough when he got close to camera, so we couldn't quite see the features
Roy Fowler 7:03
lives. He was a very mannered actor, oh yeah, very pleasing act to deliver the list. Very, very
Speaker 1 7:09
so on location, we didn't have the only had a double. He only came in Roger Lipsey, when we came back to Studio, we had this all his back projection, actually, which he appeared in. And, you know, it's quite remarkable how, if we managed to blend things together. See, that's where Michael Powell is. Again, many directors wouldn't have dared to do that. You see, he did because he knew we wouldn't let him down. You wouldn't show enough. We just get in such a position that whenever any movements came in, we know there's going to be a Carter, waiter studio and things like that was mapped out properly. And the iron one going was shot also part on Omni denim lot, for instance, on the coaster shots on the cast. And we we we shot also a bit small set, which Alfred young a match saying, and
Roy Fowler 8:10
the job of matching you did is quite extraordinary. Well,
Speaker 1 8:13
this is what my strengths. I don't want to show up. My great strength is to be able to, even weeks later, months later, know exactly what I did, do it then, and then match it exactly, and
Roy Fowler 8:26
you carry that in your mind, oh,
Speaker 1 8:28
yes, it's all become you stored away. And I always felt I could cope with anything. I never found anything which was impossible for me. It just, you know, the confidence and also one's feeling about things, I think more, the feeling of an appreciation of what you've done. Even remember the lights I used and how many lamps I had on this particular side and which light was the main light, you know, always has a photographic memory of my work in that way, respect and also type of filters I used, because I vary quite a lot with my filters. I had a great range of things to change the branch, to make things differently on the screen, and this, I found a fascinating part of film making, which I think most people today never had opportunity to find out or learn or at sufficient time they just, you know, just slap on nights today, lots of terms are made by so called reflected light. And we mean, well, I mean, I did that in a different control way years later, by using tracing shot through tracing paper the light to make the light more manual, and using spun glasses and certain distances and people the front office used to think I was. That. So what's he doing with having a bloody big boot and putting that big tracing paper from they didn't realize that's how the painters let their work. They didn't have direction light that way. It was in direction. I thought, I make the lights work the way I want them to be. And having this affinity to painting and so on. It was endowed by Allah, you see. And it's like second nature, you know? It's who wants to have direction light. We don't always sit in direction light. It's contoured for the studio. For some reason it's always been the same old thing, you know, it's,
Roy Fowler 10:39
was it axiomatic with you, that you will always have a source on screen or off screen. In other words, you were lighting as if there were a legitimate source, or I was
Speaker 1 10:51
trying to find the most interesting way to tell the scene. Now, after reading a script many times and then making notes, and then I would discuss the director. I said, Do you think if we the sequence, if we they come in and there's just one shot of light coming from a street lamp coming to the window, and the rest of the room is in darkness, until when the person comes in, and when he does come in, he switches on just a standard lamp and so on. So we use a standard map as a light source for the artist, and not to have the phony things all over the place. I say, Fine. And this is sort of I created my own. You aimed for that? Before that, yes, before that, before go on the floor. And had everything prepared so it was already on the floor.
Roy Fowler 11:41
How about practicals? Same
Speaker 1 11:43
with practicals. I used to put a lot of photo flats, things like that at times, to give it extra strength, or I would change the whole pattern of see, I was in a composition, having a sequence, special night sequence. You have to have special light sources, table lamps, standard lamps. I wasn't 18, having harsh overhead, unless there was a demand in the sequence, to make use of light patterns, which, in reality, gives you a certain atmosphere, which is, you know, gives you an additional help in how you light the artist. So people go in and out of light and finish out as they do it normally, but they have the litter smear the over light, you know, and not to have many back lights. I hate that have any back light. It's very unobtrusive, because our natural light, you see, it doesn't happen in reality, unless you shoot against the light. I love shooting against the light. Actually, the least light source you use, the more effective it can be. And this is something which I discovered early on in my life with the camera. It's so fascinating the ideas which you think about it, and it's for you to create them and give the picture as much variety as possible. You don't repeat everything and every sequence should be helped emotionally through the visual presentation. And there's a lot you can do. You only have to go to art galleries to see some of the greatest painters, see how they design lighting. I mean, it's van Mier points I admire very much, true for his for his style and cause land, right and and saying, you, that's why I always love working in Italy, because there's so much, especially in Venice, and so much,
Roy Fowler 14:03
I know where I'm going was at the time, I think was thought I was a relatively small picture, but from what you say, it was really quite complicated in production
Unknown Speaker 14:13
logistics, because of the technical presentation,
Roy Fowler 14:17
there's far more studio than one would imagine. It looks to be a location picture, whereas the fact is, an enormous amount of it was created in the studio. Oh yes,
Speaker 1 14:26
because it was the only way already, because, as if you remember the key secret, it's the secrets at the key side, when they're standing the key and he saw a small group coming in, I used graduate of filters there. There was nothing there. Went on location. It was the sky, and everything else was insipid. I forced up the atmosphere by using graduate filter and give it something. And then the foregone he had a lantern on its Twilight. And Mickey was want to go home. But. Four. I said, Mickey, three or four shots. I can get you right now. You sure? I said, Yes, because I was I wouldn't mention it to you. Do you mind if we shot Disney just young, because we wanted to get my way sooner or later, we do it right now, just at six o'clock, the light was going completely and we shot at 20 to six, and we got these three or four shots in very quickly. And that's naturally. Atmosphere was changing all the time with the sun setting or whatever was there, and the patterns in the sky changed again. And the graduated filter enhanced it enormously, and gave it a mood, which you it wasn't there
Roy Fowler 15:45
magic. Our stuff is very common nowadays, but it was, I would have thought, quite rare then, was it not? Well, if you people would pack up and go home, oh
Speaker 1 15:54
yes, they usually pack up the moment the light gets yellow, whatever it is, that's it. And, you know, it's, it's quite incredible that you have to have a sympathetic director to work with, because many directors, they just work to through what I call this all new rule book. It's just they don't, they're not very sensitive. I'm not trying to say that in a nasty way. It's the very few directors, my experience, who had a visual presentation, appreciation rather and sense things and would sympathize with it, and, you know, feel it's helpful to them. You know, because it is
Roy Fowler 16:38
with all the technical demands. Was it a relatively smooth picture?
Speaker 1 16:43
Yes. I mean, the back projection was the toughest thing, having to deal with shot after shot, and getting the right movements, and the wind machines working and all the time full blast, and the water started coming and hitting the boat, and in creating the little atmosphere which we experienced and on the occasion when we were shooting with doubles, and that was tough.
Roy Fowler 17:08
Do you? Do you recollect how long it took to shoot that sequence in the studio? Well,
Speaker 1 17:12
I know we were at least a good week or so, because we had so many shots as cartons, where the artists now were bringing to life the sequences and what they go through and and all the suffering and the dangers involved
Roy Fowler 17:31
in it was dangerous. You were also using the tank, I suppose, oh
Speaker 1 17:36
yes, that we had a tank as well. For some they were putting, and some the other work putting, I shot myself on, on the island, mile from, from a top of the island. From was a jewel. Actually, was quite a physical we had, we had, we took some great liberties. We many times the boat. You mean dangerous? Yes, it was very dangerous, because we had a Scotsman called Ian McKenzie. I always remember him. He came for our owner, and he was the skip of the boat. He didn't like going through it, but he didn't want to lose face. I could tell by his expressions, but he didn't say much, and it really was not tilt and no teller. The big waves would come over and cut out the whole engine, all the plugs would be soaked. We were drifting out of control against the rocks around the whirlpool. And we got a pole of film turn. We put in some paraffin, got out the plugs, quickly dried them off, put him in, and just in time, he managed to start it up again. And then we draw out a whirlpool area. And I tell you, this is absolute fact. And this happened on a few occasions. Elements were so powerful, and the very few people of us, we took some great chances list our lives with no extra bonuses or anything like that. Who was in the boat but we had with us. Michael Park was always with us. My mike was this boat to boat, or you're in the one boat. Well, we were sometimes boat to boat, but mostly it was our point of view. Shots, yes, with, with, also another boat where we put in dummies. Was quite amazing. The one boat with the dummies, which were the nobody in there, we just sent, took a chance sending it through the Whirlpool, hoping on the other side had somebody standing by to try and retrieve the boat, if possible, that boat survived without anybody handing it. The dummies were flopping about, and we managed to use many cuts. We just stuffed dummies, and I. The intercut. It was quite fantastic. How it all worked out.
Roy Fowler 20:04
What do you think is the morality of a director, either jeopardizing people's lives or asking them to jeopardize their lives? Do you think any picture is worth that?
Speaker 1 20:16
Well, in one hand, you say is not. Then again, how do you put on the screen? How do you ever present a story? Unless you're there, you can't build everything. And when you have a realistic store, like, I know I'm going, you've got to be and you've got to see the whirlpool. Actually, one thing I forgot to mention to you, the very first time you went through the Whirlpool, and we sent back the Russian they were brought up to us very quickly, flown up, I think, and we saw that oven. And everything looks so easy. Everyone threw it. And Mickey said to me, Erwin, it looks tame. What's wrong? Something hasn't quite clicked. I said, Mickey, we used the wrong lenses. So he said, How do you mean? I said, we use the wide angle lens. I was trying to get all the marble skies, and we should have used telephone lenses, three or four inch or six inch lenses. Okay, as long as you feel that's okay, let's do it again tomorrow. And we shot everything then with a different approach. And that was amazing. The difference. Wouldn't believe it's possible. They're both intercut, presumably. And ladies, I bought, like all the eddies, it suddenly became enormous size, which they were. But when you had a wide angle lens. You look at everything. It all lost part of it
Roy Fowler 21:43
and picturesque. Yes, you know, absolutely, what camera were you using in the book, the mitral cameras? Yes,
Speaker 1 21:53
we see we felt as we have to have 1000 foot magazine on that. We don't want to keep on reloading, especially going to the heavy seas. And we had also second camera with us, you know, in case we needed extra cuts, which was a good investment, but was a very terrifying and we're very lucky to come out of the life, because I remember warship, just stoya heard we were going to the Whirlpool, and the captain was trying to be a brave man. He put down all the hatches, and they were reduced to eight knots from 4035, 40 knots to eight knots. And he was court martialed when they discovered that he went through the coward like him, just to amuse himself and see what what can be done. He has no right. He goes to that
Roy Fowler 22:45
risking, risking issues. And his crew, we went to it four times, four times. Did you do any of the operating on this? Yes, because
Speaker 1 22:53
my operator was nervous. I said, Look, Cecil, it's not enough room for us. Anyhow. Hope you not offended. Oh, certainly not. So you operate in the internal yes, oh yes, the whole lot, everything. And Eric Besche was my system was very brave. You see alongside me, and the wave hit, let the photo of me clean it up quickly. And is it
Roy Fowler 23:16
salt water? Is it salt water? Oh yeah.
Speaker 1 23:19
Oh yes, very much so. And you see, we had to be as careful as we could. I mean, we didn't want to roll after all our efforts, I mean, and double check everything and make sure it was well covered over the camera with the ground sheets and keeping the all sprays, yes, it was quieter. And all the winds and and being out of control, lifting towards the rocks and seeing us at his launch. We didn't wear any life jackets. I refuse to have one. I says, no point if something goes wrong. Rather, have not to prolong the argument, because, you know, only get shot down take longer. So we'll be secrets for once.
Roy Fowler 24:04
Back in Denham, the film was made. Anything more to say about it? It was very well received. I think it was a very charming and very authentic piece of British film making, wasn't it?
Speaker 1 24:17
Well, it was such a great success in America. It ran in Chicago on a stand from Emerick Pressburger for three years. They're absolutely enchanted with it. It matter the firm was so successful that I had so many offers, one after the other. Everybody said, Get that guy who photographed iron grace, marvelous. Never mind anybody else. Get him and I got London town for worse worth one picture I never wanted to work on, particularly, and was my first color film. But was a man who I discovered, Leslie Vargas, who was that time,
Roy Fowler 24:57
it seems to me, London talent. Takes us into a whole new sequence, and itself is of such interest as probably the greatest disaster ever made in this country. Certainly, a man
Speaker 1 25:08
was had had no idea about musicals, yeah,
Roy Fowler 25:12
well, I, what I was going to suggest is we make this the beginning of our next session, because it's a long one. Yeah, a long session, a long subject, so rather than
Speaker 1 25:24
I could have avoided easily, because that's stupid when you often you go against your own judgment and allowed my agent to persuade me. That's what I said to you earlier.
Roy Fowler 25:34
Well, I'm sure you didn't realize it was going to be, I don't think anyone realized it was going to be the total disaster that it was. They all had high hopes for it didn't. But when I met the British musical, it was going to be
Speaker 1 25:46
when I met him. And he was very charming and a man of sound, a big hard trip to have a person, but I could see was empty person was something not there. You know, it's just like you could see through something. He
Roy Fowler 25:59
was an alcoholic too, oh yes.
Speaker 1 26:02
And I was, I knew I made a mistake. See, I turned on. I could have worked with Mickey Powell on matter life and death, and at that time, we had a sort of slight disagreement, if I only had depth up and telephone, which I wanted to do, and say, Mickey, I made a hell of a big mistake because he was amazed. I accepted that. I said I can't go to if I were to say what I wanted to say. And my part made me stop me, meaning that I would never get involved with that one. And I'm going to tie it on with my because I know he missed me despite everything else that he already discussed things with chat, if he still back his mind, thought was a big mistake, and he often said later how he was so saddened that we drifted apart than when we should have, after all his years together and achieved So much success together and had a greater up fall despite, because it was the fun of life to have difference of opinion sometimes and and we never did that in a nasty way.
Roy Fowler 27:12
Did you ever work with him again?
Speaker 1 27:14
No, except the only time I worked him again when Pablo came up and,
Roy Fowler 27:20
I guess, but you never shot
Speaker 1 27:22
again, because that time, I was then going off to the continent a lot, and when you see from other films, which I loved, working in Italy, particularly in many films came
Roy Fowler 27:33
up, was it also the end of the road with Pressburger?
Speaker 1 27:37
Yes, also that time, also Pressburger and power were at the beginning of sort of separating. It was things the subject they picked, except for black Narcissus, which I could have had, which I would have loved to done that time was a big mistake, all that, and that's he was looking back again. I was just so I listened to other people advising me, and it was that's a big mistake.
Roy Fowler 28:09
I think. On that cautionary note, we're in this session. We'll start with London town on the next one. It's the 10th of November. Now continuing this, but when we left off last time at the point of view being offered London Town, yes, so let's start there. Tell us about that. Well,
Speaker 1 28:32
it's one of the worst mistakes I ever made in my life, having just completed Michael and being in two minds who continue with him, and then this firm suddenly came. I
Roy Fowler 28:46
ask about that. Was there friction between the two of you?
Speaker 1 28:50
Well, we always had what I call friendly encounters, but not vicious, and only, you know, we sort of had exchange of ideas. And you know, he being a very sarcastic person, but often, you know, really wound you by his vicious remarks. So
Roy Fowler 29:09
they were clashes of personality, rather than
Speaker 1 29:13
artistic, congenial, civilized type of poach, not to have to be unpleasant, it's not necessary. We'll get the best out of people.
Roy Fowler 29:23
Can you give us a sample of the sort of thing that Powell would say? Well,
Speaker 1 29:26
it's sarcastic manner. Don't fully worry, you're doing a very good job for him, and he's pleased. And naturally, the critics were all on my side, which he didn't like. But there you are. He did give me many marvelous opportunities. Which
Roy Fowler 29:42
he hated competition? Did he in terms of recognition? In terms of recognition, did he? Did he dislike competition, other people getting credit? Well,
Speaker 1 29:53
to certain extent, sometimes, then again, as I had a reasonably strong. A personality I always had my own with him, and also having had lot of experience, and I also known him for many years, because, as I told you, I operate for many years, and my household love hate relationship might put it that way. And then again, we did miss each other when we decided to go, when I accepted London Town, which I mentioned was my biggest mistake.
Roy Fowler 30:26
Did Pressburger have that kind of relationship with Powell, you know,
Speaker 1 30:31
to certain extent, but it was always behind the scenes. I think the strain years later told on him. They separated, as you probably know, which was sad, because it broke up a marvelous team, Powell without Pressburger was such a shadow, and Pressburger without Powell was also because a very gentle person, they were fine and couldn't be more. Also very clever businessman, better businessman
Roy Fowler 31:06
so Pressburger, in his dealings with, with with his fellow workers,
Speaker 1 31:15
highly civilized, gentle person would never hurt anybody as power would hurt anybody if you could. And you know,
Unknown Speaker 31:24
well, these movies reflect
Speaker 1 31:27
vicious dick and Hyde personality, and I resent it to certain extent. That's why, when London town came up, in one hand, I wanted very much to continue with power. Because we he said to me, what about matter and life? And I said, Well, what about it? Don't you want to work in colors? Where I said, Yes, of course, Mickey, but I have to think about it, if you don't mind. And I cut long story short when I met Wesley. August was introduced via my agent, who was very flat of this man once didn't want to meet any other car on except myself, who was your agent since, and Eric good head linen, Dunphy at that time. They were, he was, you know, obviously he always wanted to get the best Commission, as like you should expect. And when it came up, I had a meeting with Wesley rockets. Like every meeting, it's always wrong to go to restaurant and discuss things. It's always they never represents the real thing when you start to work with people and how with sign agreement to go with him, I told Michael Powell, and I thought might be good idea if we sat one out, maybe later on, we can get together again. But I did it with a heavy heart. I knew somehow I made a big mistake, but I was too proud to admit it, you see, and also my Asian person like Michael Powell, for other reasons, was very glad I would accept this film. When we started preparing it, I saw this designs of London town. I was horrified. They were designed from Hollywood friend of berserkers, who was also producer and director
Roy Fowler 33:20
and I had got launched from the rank organization, in
Speaker 1 33:23
effect, because that time he didn't want to go to Dunham students. He wanted a student himself. So they opened up Shepparton, which had been closed down during the war time. And we had to start at the beginning. Was a hell of undertaking, getting in equipment, engaging new staff, and getting teams together, especially for a very big firm like this, which had so many sets and enormous amount of light equipment involved.
Roy Fowler 33:48
Do you know what Shepperton had been during the war? Totally dark.
Speaker 1 33:52
They were closed down for a couple of years. Yeah, and we opened the studio up, especially for this months.
Roy Fowler 33:58
Had they used it for other purposes during the war, the studio or
Speaker 1 34:03
abuse for storage. Many space were used for storage
Roy Fowler 34:07
or making airplanes and things like that. I just wondered,
Speaker 1 34:11
yes, I think at that time, and we were just a guinea pig. So there's one point I didn't care for, because I hate to come in where you have to start to see, well, they haven't got this, they haven't got that and so on. Shepparton was
Roy Fowler 34:26
not a particularly well equipped studio before
Speaker 1 34:30
stand. I mean, even before the war, there were quite a good studio work in or was it denim as some city? I mean, denim was the Mecca, right? Indeed, everything you know, if you wanted another 20 electrician, fine, if you want another crane or so, it's there, you know. And it's also when you have highly trained professional people makes life much more pleasant and you achieve more. They can also show when I. Saw the designs, and I queried many things with Mercy like us. He said to me, Erwin, and you mustn't boy, this is a great design. I say, I know he's a great designer, but what I have to photograph be my first color firm. And I know something about color too, because I used to be, in my young days, a painter. So I understand colors. I think losing me well, and we had many battles there. What do you want to do? I see that blue is far too heavy. It should be much lighter, because photographically, would register nearly black. So we have to lighten up so many degrees. Well, our art director has also experienced color, maybe, but I'm amazed. Should have this, and we had all color designs, pieces for the painters sent from Hollywood. But constant battles. I knew I had made a mistake. I spoke to my agent urgently. I said, You must get me off this film. I don't think it's going to work out at all. Never mind the money. I don't care about that. Erwin, you can't do this such an important firm, it will be harmful. Why aren't you little patient? Persuade him. I said you can't, on persuading somebody who sticks up for his own cronies. And I discovered this particular American design. I won't mention his name, one, yes, we could easily find it out if you remember his name. Well, I don't want to be caught. Well, no, we weren't any court that definition character. We want to show you what desire probably
Speaker 2 36:37
all did he over here, or he was he was working.
Speaker 1 36:42
He was working from Hollywood, the old boss, everything else was and so but heavy heart I started from after complain to my agent, who warned me that it would the rank organization would take a poor view that I walk out of Bucha themselves, going to spend enormous amount of money. There was no ceiling on a budget. He told me, even you take now three or four months, it doesn't matter, because field, who was then a wonderful comedian, greatest, one of the greatest British comedians and Desmond, who is his partner, they were marvelous team. Petula Clark was given the chance to play the young daughter. I worked with Petula Clark on either one going when she was four or five years of age. It was my first time with Michael Powell at a time and in a coming back to London, town, I knew wasn't right, and I know tat and color were very flattering and so on, but I knew the results were not right, and I suffered, I can't tell you, over the months and months, knowing that I'm stuck that if I left it, but to look upon as somebody walks out on a company who rely on you to do something. And I couldn't do much against Wesley ranks, because being a producer and a director and having car Blanche from Arthur rank, you want to make this great musical using one of the top Hollywood directors, what they didn't realize he was an elderly gentleman. He was past his best, so old fashioned in his approach, and couldn't make up his mind. And we would line up a shot. Now start lighting it. And then when I turned around after 10 minutes, I saw the camera be moved another path, so I went over to my operator, Cecile coon. I said, Cecil, what happened? He changed his mind the media again. I said, Well, why don't you tell me? Because I tried to draw your attention, and was you long as stopped him from saying, Erwin, he can take care of it all. So I had to start all over again, which is annoying, I thought, also very discourses, not even consigned one, you know, that he thought might be better to go somewheres. Michael Powell, I had complete control of compositions and setups. He didn't want to know. I mean, we discussed it much in detail and what we hoped to do. But Wednesday August, did the old Hollywood stuff. It was designed this way. Had sketches, production sketches, many setups, I thought, utterly boring, old fashioned. And they come down so short. It took nine months shooting, the longest I think I've ever been on any firm. We were well over schedule because there wasn't a proper schedule as dark with and when it finished, I was so relieved to I can't remember what I went on next the same time. I did mention the editor that to allow at least six to eight weeks to. For Technicolor for the grading session, because, as you know, with a color firm, you have to lay it all out and decide together what type of style of printing you want to have, how it suits the subject best. And you have to collaborate with laboratory. And as I normally have, worked closely with laboratory. Anyhow, as it happened, they were cutting until the last few days before the film was premiered, which is absolutely scandalous. And Technicolor kept on complaining they wanted the film and the mercy authorities could make up his mind. Anyhow, long shot, they had very little time degraded. Unfortunately, I was way on location when the premier came out, and I heard from Technicolor that they didn't supply the best print. Of all, they managed to get a good print later on, a week after the film has been premiered and the critics have seen it. So it was so demoralizing to be involved in one's career when you had the best intentions and you knew you could do it reasonable, and so one person who happened to have the great power in one hand, could create so much damage. Because, as you know, the film was not a success, absolutely, very expensive, and it took me long time to regain my sort of confidence again. Lucky for me, I managed to get many color films after that, and many people who didn't know the difficult I had and the soul, eventually the next Prince they they thought looked very nice despite my complications with it,
Roy Fowler 41:43
but with a movie that bad, I don't think no matter how good it looks, when
Speaker 1 41:51
you have an old fashioned conception and you're vague, and he was punch drunk, like a punch drunk fighter,
Roy Fowler 41:58
well, he was Never that distinguished a director anyway. I mean, he says half sleep
Speaker 1 42:03
is gem. Wasn't time of journey. We had to wake him up. Take your time. I was all set for you now,
Roy Fowler 42:14
since it's a reflection of certain things that were going on within the rank organization at that time, I suppose, on, on the one hand, a great ambition to make good films, and on the other, an almost total incompetence in how to go about it. I think London towns a very good example. Couple of questions. First of all, how did Technicolor side in the disagreements over the color schemes, because usually they kept a very strong controller. Yes,
Speaker 1 42:43
they had John bridges, yes, charming lady, and she naturally agreed with me. And we, sometimes we managed to get some, what I call compromise, to put in. I may had Marvel's and also Agnes de Mille came over. She was the the Mrs. Technicolor. Oh no,
Roy Fowler 43:04
no, no, you're thinking of Mrs. Calmness. Oh, Mrs. Calmness. Mrs.
Speaker 1 43:09
Mixed up, Miss calmness, who, I must say, was a great ally of mine. And she was delightful person. She was tough as anything. I mean, she quite when she arrived at Studio. Everybody was terrified because of her, because she had that dominating personality. You liked her, did you? Oh, yes, I don't know they were she loved I know I'm going, she said, Erwin, you're great artist. What you created with this man? Powell, it's unbelievable. We've seen it in America many times. And you know, it's a pity you have to work with as dreyman, I said, Well, I don't know what we can do. I've been batting with the colors. Leave it to me. I'll bash it. What you want to have done. I said, Well, I think the color far too garish could be bit more subtle, more subdued to us. So I don't want to build a lot of light to lighten things up. They should be there, so I can just light it very gently and more like a painting, not just like some garish thing. So she battled to a certain extent. But you know, you cannot overrule a man who has a car Blanche from rank himself, who said to John Davis, we want to make it top, best, best musical ever. And the American mark is ours if we get a good film. And field is a great comedian, as we know. And so the life was subject, and it has all the British sort of atmosphere in that and everything is very dear, nice.
Roy Fowler 44:46
But see what? Who said that the recording Arthur,
Speaker 1 44:49
yes, that was, see, Arthur rank was very delighted we were going to make this story. And, you know, he wanted to break into American market, you know, and that's why engaged. People like David Lean and other people to be his front runners and Carol Reed, he backed everybody, you know. I mean, he didn't know much about filming, but he his intentions were very patriotic. Definitely, he was an honorable man, I think. And people used to make fun of a man who hit the Goon with Arthur rank, so but same time I found him, very rarely I met him, delightful man and very shy person. They he very rarely ever talked to the film people at all. But David Lean always felt, you know, he was very shrewd businessman, and they should be grateful to have the support of Arthur rank, but all his flowers, which he saw it by the millions of times,
Roy Fowler 45:52
tell us why the film took so long. Robert Costa
Speaker 1 45:57
with intercession See he could never make up his mind, and we covered everything from every possible angle, the old fashioned technique, long shot, mid shot, over the shoulders, single, close up, everything the same thing we barely ever use, a tracking shot, or the crane, or especially with a musical you want to have make Also these light changes, things like that. He always shot it just like a stage production, like an ordinary stage production, just as you do, curtains open up and then there's a set cutouts, just cut outs. So I argue about that. Why can't we put more realism here? And then, why has everything got to be so all full of cut outs and trade boring sets, you only have one or two angles and that's about all, and you're off the set, you know? And he just didn't grasp that. And it's infuriated when you lump it like this. Financial actually was marvelous, because I was on the phone for over a year because we had three months preparation, nine months shooting, and it was hell, the worst year my life. I would definitely say,
Roy Fowler 47:11
was there a lot of rewriting, or it was just shooting that thing
Speaker 1 47:15
skip, because there was so many numbers which were photographed, and a story part was rather poor, tiny, stupid set, terrible, you know, really just boring. And again, I couldn't, couldn't argue about because he said, Well, look, Erwin, we want to be very realistic on that side. I said, that's fine, but what about when we present the numbers. We should be much more imaginative. And why not try this and that? Well, it's not designed that way. I see, I know it isn't. We can't be redesigned. Haven't got time, and all sorts of he was very awkward about it, because, being an American designer, he didn't want anything set against him. I was never personal about him just said, I thought we could do far better. So that was the biggest mistake in my life.
Roy Fowler 48:06
What did he say about the British crew working on the picture? Did he have a slow
Unknown Speaker 48:17
mind you when we have a slow job?
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Speaker 1 0:02
I didn't realize we were getting to the end. Yes, let's just overlap that. We were talking about his attitude toward the
Speaker 2 0:09
British crew. The crew, I think, became on a board with him. They could see his only gentleman was past his best, because it was a great effort for him to be there, and he didn't often know what the hell was happening around him. I said, naturally that reacts to the crew. They just lose heart. And he was pushing the crew to work faster when they said, What? Look at him. He doesn't know his ass from his elbow. What things like that they used to say. And they were dead, right?
Speaker 1 0:43
Who saw rushes? Did anyone from South Street? No,
Speaker 2 0:48
if they did see some? Remember Anthony Goon by saw some. And he was so impressed what he saw, for my side, General, ashes, period, and he offered me a film after this one, which unfortunately was his film was canceled, but otherwise I don't think anybody else saw it, because he refused to allow anybody to see anything, even the first cut.
Speaker 1 1:14
I wondered if Davis or rank had any idea of the disaster that was shaping up, but they probably wouldn't be able to judge Russia's
Speaker 2 1:22
anyway. Well, see, John Davidson was in charge. He didn't know very much about the final point. There was nobody else supervising it. See, we all walked away from denim. He was very clever. He didn't want to be in the lime night of Devon studios. And people could see things at times and sneak on in the viewing theater what's going on, being tucked away and no visitors were allowed most of the time. It's another thing to
Unknown Speaker 1:46
how did dear old Sid field take it? Sid field? How did he take
Speaker 2 1:51
it? He was a lovable character. You see, he one of his warm, charming people. Could motivate himself, and you know, as he was playing himself, as he did on the stage, well, everything, all the sets, were exactly as he had the sketches, you know, which were copies of what normally he has as a background. And he just carried out the stage of the film studio.
Speaker 1 2:19
The only merit of the film now is that it does record those sitfield Stage act the golfer, photographer.
Speaker 2 2:26
I mean, that was my I thought the photographer and golfer too outstanding. I found him wonderful to work with because such a lovely human being. Used to like going to boxing matches. I used to go with him once or twice to Alberto, and he loved that. And he was a very simple, honest, decent type, no conceit, and they full of humility, as you do. He died. It was only about 4647 I think, and his wife was more or less penniless when he died, he had, he had, not so much as he should have done well.
Speaker 1 3:14
National success came late in his life, didn't it? He had been out in the provinces on tour, I think
Speaker 2 3:22
he was, I thought, one of our greatest, definitely, but our greatest comedians. And I worked with many comedians in England, and he to me, he and Florence Desmond were wonderful team together. And little Alfred bass, you know, who used to shout from the audience, and had a little even when he was dressed up like a SPIV, which that was, that was another sketch, yes. Yes. Indeed, yes. Pearly, you know, the pearly that altogether had lots of lovely English, what I call English theme of great qualities around him, and they're so sad to think that it hadn't been presented in a far higher level.
Speaker 1 4:12
I agree. I agree, both Sid field and Wesley Ruggles drank a fair amount, did they not? Was? Was that any part of the problem on the picture go
Speaker 2 4:23
on hold? They got on very well together, because he said, dude on the stage? Yes, he always everything is all like on a stage. And we thought sometimes we could have improved on things. And he he was hoping we would make some adjustments here and there to make it but no, yes. Further garbage act like a stage production. Long Shot, close. Mid shot, closer shot, chosen cameras always shooting, and the same old thing. You know, it's almost up a long shot, but the curtains opening closely, such a bore.
Speaker 1 4:56
What was the problem with Technicolor when a film such as that. Overran because there were very few cameras in the country. I would have thought at that stage, what happened to the the other films in the pipeline that were waiting for the camera. Because
Speaker 2 5:09
you just, you know, they just looked upon as a long firm, which they expensive production, which they were going to have so many prints made eventually. So there, it's a good income for them.
Speaker 1 5:22
Now I'm saying the cameras must have been assigned for subsequent Yes, luckily,
Speaker 2 5:28
you know, they always managed to get a few extra cameras. Always had some reserve. And, you know, so it went. We always had two cameras all the time, right? And if we need any more, we would notify her in advance, right? So the Technicolor always would, I must say, that service was always excellent from that point of view. As you know, they were. They have the color genius and in that period, no question about it.
Speaker 1 5:59
Now let's leave them. Perhaps the disastrous aspects of the productions were there. Were there any positive ones in terms of what you learned about color or what you did with color? I learned what
Unknown Speaker 6:10
not to do more than anything else, because I felt, you know, if the film would have been seen eventually, when I was propagated,
Speaker 2 6:23
which technically it's amazing, the quantities you can achieve through through the great experience technicians and a setup, it was very nice, very plus. Despite all the dreary designs we have, we managed somehow to bridge things and make them more acceptable, except be so much more to be a much higher plane to staff with. And as you know, one has to adjust things as new as being dogmatic once you also loyally towards the company who have been your employer for years and years, and you hoped to continue with them, because there were, then, as in rank organization, they were the most powerful set up in Britain, and the intention were always tops, with David Lean and Michael Powell and Pressburger and launder Alfred Asquith. You know, you had a, you might say, many groups, all British talent being financed by a wonderful man who had to be very rich and successful outside firms because he lost he could afford to lose tax point. We understand it was such a write off of certain other profits they had. So one hand the other, he was very beneficial, I think, to the film industry. And it's so sad. Eventually the whole thing folded. Because, the reason it folded because he was taught by an American distribution company. Said if the firms he made were big, important films which had a leaning towards American public's tastes and could be understood by American audiences not to be too English in that way, then they would be delighted to distribute them. But as it turned out, it was not true. They took him forward trying to smash any opposition, because they knew at that time the British market was a very big market. 5000 cinemas or more, you know, were available for distribution, and it was a very profitable side. And I think was also politically motivated. They wanted not to see British companies succeed, because even when I made a damn busses years later, I understood they showed it in a third cinema somewhere out of out of town, they never gave it a proper distribution, because that in that firm, we showed the great contribution Britain made during the war, and they didn't like that to see the Americans could never equal the little flying. Is it? They had that Fortis flying at great height, where even the fight German fighters couldn't reach them, and they're out of range of the flak as well. So that bombing was always high attitude, but damn bus being so daring. And it didn't. They didn't like that, so it never was shown, despite it being a normal success in this country. So give it this comparison that Americans were, for years and years, not in favor to have a success of film at this because it only means less profits for them. And they all stuck together, all the different companies. As you know, it's more like a cartel. So by Paul rank, other than last art as well on that, because there were many other firms made which very rarely had a proper showing amount. Occur. I think I know I'm going around for three years in Chicago was an exception, but they ran an art house, see, so your term was only very small, but they already had proper distributions. You see, that's all, that's right,
Speaker 1 10:15
yeah, even the famous pictures of that time got art house produces the evening comedies, for example, films like that would open in tiny, little art house, cinema.
Speaker 2 10:25
See, this has been our great handicap, that Americans, I know they came over here and make use of our facilities, and often cheaper than filming in Hollywood, and also very convenient for many of the stories they had to make. And we had always marvelous acting ability here, and great technicians and facilities. So we were very handy, as long as they kept us in a position where they had still the overriding power which they always had,
Speaker 1 11:04
yes, control. You say that London town, the experience of London Town, left you very depressed. Was Was it a break now in your career? Did you
Speaker 2 11:18
well now I carried on. Fortunately for me, I can because, having made other firms like anyone going other one people also, let's catch him and the old pep people heard that, that regardless, you know, was very good person. It was impossible.
Speaker 1 11:34
Nobody blamed you. Oh no, I was never blamed for
Speaker 2 11:37
for the way the firm venture turned on. Gave thought. Was very sad that we had a great opportunity and you couldn't carry things out. If the man in charge is it's his own company. It was his own company. You made the film, and obviously, Frank put up the finance, obviously, and we all knew that it had no chance to be anything more than just a Orkney film and wasted money, wasted efforts, really.
Speaker 1 12:16
Maybe this is a moment for a hypothetical question, because I suppose, concurrent with that a matter of life and death was shot. What perhaps would you have done differently if you had shot that film? Sorry, if you had shot yourself, if you had photographed a matter of life and death, how different would you have done it?
Speaker 2 12:39
Well, she met a night that was already made something really for my style of photography. And also, you know, had black and white as word with color and Michael power set you many times, gives you a chance to to really as you pass master by, not you had been in on the planning of we did. We talked about it so loosely beforehand, but I didn't commit myself, because I had a pretty rough time with him. Now, was rather big fat. I understand his attitude towards other people, not so much. I could always take care of it. I hate to see bullies, you see, and I was brought up by founding back on to stand up against bullies and treat him a certain amount of contempt. And then again, he was always on the whole very nice to me. It was only just a few occasions when he just became what I call rather ridiculous, and I didn't bear malice, because you have to say, well, you have great opportunities to do something which you never thought you could do. And hit this you set up an atmosphere which pushed you beyond your own capabilities. You realize, until you work with a man like Ravi, that's the opposite. You're on the lower level. See, with power you want on the
Speaker 1 14:01
top level. So his abrasive methods did have that benefit. At least he was goading people and pushing people beyond known limits. Oh yes,
Speaker 2 14:11
I mean, letters were and he gave me many of Marvel's opportunities. Was color blind. That's another thing too. He admitted to me weeks later. I said, Erwin, I didn't mention to beforehand. I hope you appreciate it. I'm really color blind. So I said, why did we argue? Then what bow the argument? I was so disgusted, I hardly ever spoke to him again. I found a really, it's beyond anything. It's an extraordinary and what can you do when you felt you only let down your inside by walking out and said, Never again?
Speaker 1 14:54
Well, I think it was never again for Wesley Ruggles, wasn't it? So the. Does my question make any sense about a matter of life and death? Would you have done it differently?
Speaker 2 15:05
Well, I would have, well, I would have shot at the idea, as you know, design, again, by Alfred younger. This is where, coming back to designer, you had such wonderful ideas, which I would have pushed differently. But again, it would be unfair for me to go into any details about it, because every light Cameron has different approach, as you know, and I understood Alfred young, and perhaps better than anybody else, and also be able to speak to him in German and knowing his mind and and we always, always exchange ideas, and it was a very great rapport between us. So that was a nice, warm feeling. And he trusted me enormously. Was very complimentary, and she'd all we had a great relationship this, which I missed enormously, and that's why I felt if I had been matter of life and death, I would have carried on on other firms with power, and it was just ridiculous mistake. And also, my age at that time was very much against Mickey. He had a round with more, with something else, and didn't speak to each other for a long time. And he was, you know, he wanted me so much to be away from him for some personal reasons, right? I mean, I discover all that late harm, because when you involved in your own work, you don't you have blinkers on. You don't see what goes around you sometimes, and all the politics evolved and all the stupid backbiting. But in fairness, it's I made the biggest mistake in my life. Definitely,
Speaker 1 16:55
I don't think probably, then there's much more to say about London Town. No, I think, you know,
Speaker 2 17:00
I think it's a painful experience, utter disappoint. My first color 40
Speaker 1 17:08
years ago. It still, obviously is very fresh in your
Speaker 2 17:13
memory. But we see when you were youngish, you know, you recover very quickly. And many people who knew me personally, so it didn't do any any harm, except if I stayed with power, I would have even gone up much further. I knew that
Speaker 1 17:30
you went on to great day next. Yes, we're now into a list of films, not many of which were very distinguished as films, it seems to me, if I can say that, how shall we treat them, Shall we just go through and you can tell great day
Speaker 2 17:48
I most photographs of Canterbury tale, as I used that sort of style. It had that sort of subject. Also. Eric Portman appeared in that, and Sheila was in that as well. So I worked with two artists. I worked before on Canterbury tale. It was quite a pleasant firm to work on. Lance COVID was English director who directed it. It wasn't an exciting firm, but it was a reasonable firm. Put it this way, didn't stretch me more than just working quietly. And you know, just, you know,
Speaker 1 18:26
well it sounds, it sounds recuperative after London turn. I imagine it was nice to be back at Denham too, absolutely,
Speaker 2 18:33
least amongst again, familiar faces and nice surround. I always like denim, despite its ungainly lay out and enormous, you know, long walks down the main car to get to the restaurant. Anywhere
Speaker 1 18:49
Were you one of the bicyclists who used to bicycle up and down the car?
Speaker 2 18:53
No, I didn't. I should have had one. I know one or two people who tired you. But the same time, it was a studio which had enormous personality and so much talent working in different stages. Great films came out, and we had great rapport with each other. Most companies who worked all know each other, and we all when I had a premier, and it looked very nice, and we used to go on Send nice letters or congratulate other people who are your my opposition, who often did a very excellent job for British firms, and it had a lovely blend of quality.
Speaker 1 19:32
Are you strictly freelance now or? Yes, you don't have any affiliation to accomplish
Speaker 2 19:37
freelance until I eventually got to a BBC, right?
Speaker 1 19:41
I wonder. I can't remember who produced great day. The production company was it two cities,
Speaker 2 19:47
two I went to two cities, del judici, yes, del judiccy took on two cities, and he was there ahead for quite number years, and I worked on quite a number of firms. Friends. For him, was a great entrepreneur, very charming man, clever businessman. And now the lady got his chance through his insistence that he thought he should make honey the fifth and and Arthur ranks say, Okay, you if you feel he has the qualities and talent, let's go ahead now he had that was that great entrepreneur, and he used to always porn. He's got a lovely house now out in the country. I can't remember. It's near either
Unknown Speaker 20:42
house. On the roof, and it was
Speaker 2 20:44
marvelous place. But used to so many parts before film would start. Everybody was invited to go, come and meet and he was delightful person, and he under his home that Carol readers were, and many other firms were made like October man, where Roy Baker was given the chance to become a director, and he sort of supported British talent. And is always very sad eventually, when he was pushed out of the company. I think John Davis always disliked him, and when he left Denham, Michael Anderson, who was the first assistant writer, you I've worked with before, and Peter used to love we felt we like to stay with judici to make, oh, a private Angela. Private Angela, right in Italy. So off we went with him to Italy. Make private Angelo, where Peters enough directed, produced, played a leading part and all the screenplay before then, you know, I made many films for two cities which I think got lists which are some were quite interesting work. And October man was quite an interesting story. Peron and Mr. Chair was the very first film. I used deep folks photography. Actually, I used deep focus on, I know, ongoing part of the story, which was the very first time any cow man in Europe worked on deep focus. I had this idea to stop darn enough to get this definition All right through, not to have this fuzzy, fuzziness. Some subject were enhanced by having the extra depth of field, especially those days, the lens were not very good. Lenses were not really as good as you find today.
Speaker 1 22:53
And had you been influenced by any American camera? Greg Colin? Heard
Speaker 2 22:58
of Greg Colin, but at the same time as he was starting on his side, I started in England. We were unaware, until remorse were working. Finished the filming, and we heard he worked deep focus. So when, when he came over to Denham, he visited me on the set. I know if you've seen a photograph of him, and we discussed, you know, our technique and camera stops. We worked on same average camera stocks. 63 was not average. That was enough to give you enough depth of field all over the stage. And it was a very interesting technique. And so therefore, when Carol and Terry came up, I shot the whole film on deep focus, which saved a lot of camera setups. And you know, we did often, three or four minutes later, more than one shot, because we had to hold a depth of focus everywhere so people could talk from all sides and be in the film and be behaving naturally and having to also cut away all the time and doing the same old commercial shooting. And a director, Lawrence hunting, he was delighted we could do that sort of technique, because he liked himself to keep things going and have a long two or three minute scene, instead of just cutting things up in bits and pieces. So that was interesting from my point of view.
Speaker 1 24:34
What about these directors? Do you have any special memories of Lance comfort or Roy Baker?
Speaker 2 24:39
Lance company, he was quite a pleasant director. Wouldn't say he's once the great directors, but he was very competent, and for the subject matter he was given, he did an excellent job. Same with Lance Huntington too.
Unknown Speaker 24:59
By. Grounds, do you know had the
Speaker 2 25:01
I don't think at that time they they were just but I call up and coming new people from
Speaker 1 25:06
the stage or from cutting rooms, or where they come from? Well, I'm not quite sure where Lance
Speaker 2 25:11
hunting you may have been being first assistant director. See, some came from being assistant directors and quite now, as you know, came from the editing department like David Lean, as you know, he was greatest editor and became, you know, great director. So that normally was the combination. Suppose Roy Baker, who I worked with the very first and second firm, I found a great strain to try and explain to people who you might feel novices about film making and without being wishing to always remain very tactful. And you could see things often going wrong, and quietly, you say something Well, again, I thought it's not my job to do this that a producer insisted that I would help him. They expect me to do this. And at the same time, it puts a lot of responsibility unnecessary in your fear, because you spend of more time going over the scene, but then working doing, set up your lighting and so on. And camera
Unknown Speaker 26:24
that was true. Roy Baker, was it on that? Yeah, that was his first picture,
Speaker 2 26:27
yeah. Weaker sex was the one that followed with, with John such. John Paul Suskind, a beg your pardon, being a producer. He was a Russian and
Speaker 1 26:43
well, let's, let's go down this list, and if anything important comes to mind, you say, so great day. It was just a picture, really an October man that wasn't that Eric Ambler. Eric
Speaker 2 27:00
Abner was the producer and the only writer. And he was a very clever person, very he as as a soil writer, he was, at that time, one of the most outstanding writers, and the company gave him the chance being produced until least he'd be happy that the story would be interpreted where he wrote the original story and a screenplay. So Roy Baker was very lucky to have had, you know, an established writer to give him a very good script.
Unknown Speaker 27:33
Did you enjoy working that picture? Did you enjoy working
Speaker 2 27:38
it was a pleasant film, because John Mills played the leading part. Was always very nice to work with, real professional. And he gave, you know, the whole story, something extra. Because you know John Mills, I know he's only a little guy, but he has a great personality, and he he is nice to work with, and he's very civilized person. Yes,
Speaker 1 28:06
after October moon, you did a picture with Harold French, who was, I think, a very accomplished Yes, but
Speaker 2 28:13
I found you see, I was, at time, committed to Noel film. Now had only time to go on location with him, but Madeleine Cowell, who that time was on honeymoon, was a Frenchman, but was half her age, and she used to come on the stage and having, you know, I won't go to details, really, she looked a mess. You know, they all had a time and trying to eliminate things, especially on location, which is, you know, you just don't often get the opportunity to to do the farm as you can do in the studio. And I always found, again, another thing to most of the people have used as a holiday. I all had our wives there, yes. And the producer, very nice chap. And everybody very nice. But all like big, one, big party. I personally, I get bored with people like that and find us so uninspiring. So what you weren't very popular on that film? Well, I don't think so, because I wanted to, again, get things moving, and again, they were always late. Almost had a nice light. You know, as you know, when you're on the location, you have to work reasonably fast, yes, organize yourself.
Speaker 1 29:30
Was that? Was it a rank finance film? I think
Speaker 2 29:33
so. Yes, yes, it was definitely ranked. But we went to had a different stewardship Warton Hall, I think, yes,
Speaker 1 29:40
I'm afraid people were taking Arthur for a bit of a ride by this time, weren't they?
Unknown Speaker 29:48
Well, it was one of these setups, you know, where it was a little on the phony side, you know, you know, I mean, without trying to. To
Speaker 2 30:01
say things about people. I mean, even the producer you had no idea about things, you just play a nice, charming person, but just a big Playboy and, you know, just any big, big, just a big laugh, yes, and I'm being ambitious person. I can't stand this sort of phony make believe of nothing, because it doesn't help. Filmmaking doesn't get better results ever. Well, you had a concept of professionalism. I thought, oh, unfortunately, yes, and I like to work with people really had ability and talent and prepare to work hard. I agree, that's the pleasure, and not a let down the people who are financing a firm, because I know very well that figure of a sketch on your budget and so on. It doesn't not a great compliment. Should people make the phone and only bears? Bears you in a long run, it doesn't do them any good, certainly, of course not. Now, I hated that sort of thing, having been brought up at Fritz Lang and Hitchcock people like that. You're all, you know, really highly, highly, 100% professional. Didn't waste any time. You know, everybody's working all the time. So should you
Speaker 1 31:15
Harold French? I thought actually was a reasonably good director his some of his work is quite pleasant. Are you? Are you including him in this frivolous approach? Right? He was frivolous
Speaker 2 31:25
to certainly, he also that time, I can't remember, had his wife there, just not like a second honeymoon. Where was the location? In Switzerland, in Switzerland, in Interlake, nothing was one place, and to its own. And
Speaker 1 31:44
in 1947 it was bloody difficult for most people to get abroad, wasn't it almost impossible, no money and very difficult to get an exit visa. So I suppose they were, they were making the most use of their time there.
Speaker 2 32:00
But Switzerland, as you know, has always been in Pleasant County. It always treated foreigners, because they allow foreigners national businesses. I think they're very civilized, marvelous people. Had my life all over again. I would have had Switzer as my home base, and from there, worked in all over to the countries where I was required, because I just adore the sort of charm of a country. There's a lot of charm. What is so great about you have three different races all living under one roof. You never hear the French saying, the bloody Germans or the Italians, the bloody French things like that. They all work in great harmony, you know, and it can't be so clean and cooking is marvelous, excellent wines, very efficient people, they may be called dull, but I rather have dull people who are have a great style and as a human Being, and as you know, 1 million foreigners working in Switzerland every year. They are given import but I call them entry visas, and they stay there like very happy and well paid and treated by human beings. Very good tax advantages too. And you know, I have a great regard for a Swiss. I mean, demo cars. You know, David lived two people I worked with many times. They all settled there. I mean, the only thing I didn't like with long winter
Speaker 1 33:35
was that a winter location, it wasn't, you weren't out there for snow. Then back to Denham. And another picture was Roy Baker, the weaker sex, which I remember the title I forgot in the film,
Speaker 2 33:51
but it was a light story. Paul Soskin was a producer whose father, I think was being he fire man's B and D of one of the old sisters. I can't amalgamate, yes, I think so
Speaker 1 34:09
he built the studio that became MGM, but never opened as a studio. I don't think did it before the war. Oh,
Speaker 2 34:18
yes, because post Oscar was normal playboy. Very delightful person, highly civilized. And
Unknown Speaker 34:27
what were they? Russian Jews? No,
Speaker 2 34:29
he, no, he was, I don't think, I'm not sure if he was Jewish or not. He was definitely a Russian descent, and he had a very nice house near Denham in bucks, and I used to visit him many times, and delightful wife. He was a very charming man who, again, see life was too kind to him to have any sort of great ambitions, same with Ivan Fox, where I work believe years later. Sir Noel, delightful person, the English on cooler memorandum. He was a producer. And the delightful people, but except, I know they find the finance, which is a great ass, and you have to be very clever, but they ride on other people's ability, really, and the other people have the talent to carry them along. Yes, that's always been a firm business, but every other business has the same voice say
Speaker 1 35:41
from that then to Mr. Perron, three pictures in 1948 Mr. Perrin and Mr. Trail, which I mentioned, your deep focus. Yes, exactly. That was quite well received, I think, at the time. Oh, yes.
Speaker 2 35:53
We had a very good cast. David far paid in that. And we had a very, very excellent cast, and they all complimented each other, which is nice when you get artists who all are not only efficient in their way, but have talents and lovely human beings, the delight to work with them.
Speaker 1 36:21
Well that was followed by the mark of Kane with Brian Desmond Hurst directing back with BDH. Has he changed much since last you saw him?
Speaker 2 36:33
But yes, here I found him. See I worked with him as came operator, right, many years before, on a night of a fire, yes, and I got him very well with him, you know, because I have a great feeling towards the Irish because, you know, he's, as you know, typically Irish, and he's a lazy director I worked with was a job to get out of his chair to look through the camera. I said, Well, Brian, would you like to see the setup we have? Because in case, at any points you feel we missed out on I'm sure it's delicious. Alfred, I'm sure have you just refused to get up? Had
Speaker 1 37:12
you become any more outrageous in the 10 years since you last worked with him? Well,
Speaker 2 37:17
he we went with him on location, and we went to the Bordeaux district, you know, we had chatting camera, and just love feet and all the greatest wines and the French side laid on marvelous lunches. You know, one took us hours. And I always remember all down to Arthur rank, yes. All down yes. And then the shop still came up at four o'clock. We're just finishing a marvelous lunch, which went on. Had about seven or eight courses and different one. What about our tea break? And he lost his temper with him. He just you absolutely idiot. How can you talk about tea after having such a marvelous meal. The whole unit all invited to this particular luncheon. But the same time, he was a nice person. He worked for Eric coup. Didn't care much for him. He said he was a coarse homosexual as Eric was more refined. There was this sort of conflict there. But when we used to work at Denham studios at lunchtime, I there, we got mixed up with this lunch and table, and everybody in our table, all homo SAS, except myself and the rest of the crew, who in other units used to see me sitting amongst them. They all sort of smile. They saw amusing with these people. But I found them very charming people to listen to, and they had a great sense, if you It must have been a very giggly table, oh yes. Was very fun. Then very Catty, of course, all the time conversation and Brian being sort of the head teacher. But again, I thought, as a human being, and here, he had a great feeling towards political art. He's a very civilized human being. And again, I had many marvelous opportunities, and he wrote some nice letters, brought myself to the head of a studio, saying that he thought my work was equal to the best in Hollywood, to Greg Tolan and all the other great cameraman who he'd known. And he was delightful from that point we do work for and the film, I think, was reasonably successful. I.
Speaker 1 40:00
Yeah, it sounds as if he always had a very light hearted unit, a light hearted Oh
Speaker 2 40:03
yes. I mean, it's enjoyable. Oh, absolutely. He didn't want to enjoy life any long people always full of more morning complaints. Didn't want to happen near him. I mean, he had that sort of great
Unknown Speaker 40:20
Irish player, absolutely yes.
Unknown Speaker 40:25
Very much as a person, too.
Speaker 1 40:29
A long time later, I remember going to his house one evening with Irving rap, Erwin rapper, we had to talk about something. Oh yes, I remember. And the front door bell would keep ringing, and these guardsmen would keep turning up, and Ryan would disappear for half an hour and then come back again. It was quite hilarious. It was great fun to be with anyway, after the mark of Kane to Riverside Next, he interrupted journey, which is not a film. I remember
Speaker 2 41:01
I went to Riverside Studios on that film because I knew have like Alan from the days of denim, and he was producing this film, and his wife paid the leading part yes, so he said, would be rather nice. Was
Speaker 1 41:15
it Senegal, or had he left synagogue? Anthony Havelock Allen was, was, was he still with Senegal? Or had he left?
Speaker 2 41:25
No, I think we still were sitting guild. But you see this subject came up, and I think at the time they there was no space at Denham, so they used Riverside Studios, mostly smallish sets, intimate story and and Richard Todd was the first time I met him. He played the leading part with Valerie Hobson, his wife. It's quite an interesting story. Dan Burt was the the the director, who I know for many years used to make many good documentaries. I think he was also very good editor.
Unknown Speaker 42:02
And was it his first feature? Do you think?
Speaker 2 42:05
I'm not quite sure. It must have been one of his early features, and we got on very well together. He was very highly civilized, nice person, you know, person who you can't have, enjoying work, being worth they are civilized. And I like people are civilized. There are constant, include types we have at times. You know, I know one shouldn't say things like that. Takes
Speaker 1 42:34
all sorts, I think then the next one sounds really quite interesting. 1949 at abpc and in Italy, private Angelo, that's right.
Speaker 2 42:49
Well, private Angelo, when dear judici was forced out of denim, desim Peter easterman and bikers myself were offered to work together on this. We decided to go with del giudice and leave denim and shoot most of the location work in Italy, near Siena and Rome. And then our inters were that time at abpc, who just been renovated, and we just were the first ones to use the studio after being completely restructured. You know, we found the studio rather dull, you know, with something always about abpc, even those days. But it didn't matter, because our main part of firms already been firmed in Italy, and all we had were a few sets, and that's all. So that was my introduction to a bppc. I mean, I knew about VIP when I worked at Rock studios years before, to me, was always a ramshackle place, and I must say, they did renovate it and make it look more civilized and up to date when we made made the film in the studio. So that's all I recommend. Recollect, I didn't meet many people there. They were mostly accountants, as you know, the studio also was run by accountants. Yes. Robert Clark, yes, everybody.
Speaker 1 44:30
But you must have things to tell us about. Peter used to know, first of all, you'd work with Michael Anderson, what? How did they co direct this film? Well,
Speaker 2 44:40
they could. I met Michael Anderson the first film on Mr. Perron and Mr. Trail. He was my first assistant. He was the best first assistant director in England. He was always alongside you. He had control on the floor. He even told a director, you know what? He. Should shoot, and really was a complete command. He was so highly intelligent and very knowledgeable and very nice, and made my life easy because he had such great control on the floor. He kept discipline so there wasn't over too much noise. So when eventually private answer came up. Peter said, well, to Michael Anderson, let's make a film. Get Erwin involved, if he's interested. He's been to actually
Unknown Speaker 45:29
as well. And had you known Ustinov before?
Speaker 2 45:33
No, I know the first time I met him, and I liked him very much. He was then very young, I think about 26 or 27 and he was, you know, as he is today, full of fun. They highly talented person, no question about it, but he was then the producer director. He made Michael Allison the associate director, and we picked a very nice team, and off we went to Italy. It was just oh yes, and we enjoyed working with him in Italy. It was great fun. And I thought did Eric glint later, who wrote the original book? I thought the script was quite reasonable. It's bit on the slow side. You know, it's only one thing that the film didn't have the pace. You see, we should have had. And this is where Americans, for instance, can always teach us a lot. And I learned a lot having worked in the past with Americans. They have to get more speed in the scenes and get the artist to move quick and cut out all long walks, if possible, and get footage they call where people stand around and waiting for the other one to say something. See with Peter Easton. He in there. We was to a more it was everything. Was great fun. Was more like a happy little party going to Italy, yes, and I think it showed an affirmative sure lack that extra pace. And we couldn't tell him too much, because he was, you know, he kept saying, Oh, you you see that, you know, this way is better, boys, I know what you mean. Thank you very much. But he still was a little obstinate, and being a producer as well. So you can't argue.
Speaker 1 47:40
Did this come after vice versa? Do you remember he'd made vice versa just before this? I
Speaker 2 47:46
think it may have come, I'm not quite sure there. I wouldn't, I'm not quite certain, except that Judith see who was then off. It was the last time I ever worked with for him, and was very sad that after that has finished him, he became deaf and became a sick man, man who contributes so much. What
Speaker 1 48:18
happened to him. Do, could you do you know the subsequent history of, well,
Speaker 2 48:24
we had his son working for us as well. And the father is health fair, once he was deposed from his position, which he which he held for many years and and he was really a great entrepreneur. No question about that. I mean, Lance lady would be the first one to give him great credit. He wouldn't yes today behind the fifth was, I thought, a masterpiece, but he managed to persuade the finances that he had challenged as he was other people had that backing. Let me stop there. I.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Roy Fowler 0:01
I decided 11 Yes. So his health began to go yes, mentally or physically well, I
Speaker 1 0:08
think in every respect I only heard after that, he didn't return with us to England. He stayed on Italy, and they only had that. You know he, you know, things weren't going to work for him, health wise, in every respect she wants to do such a important positions he had, obviously it just difficult to accept that
Roy Fowler 0:33
he died in a monastery, I believe, without many, if any, worldly possessions left. Is that what you heard Poppy?
Speaker 1 0:42
I'm not sure Poppy is correct. Yes. See, he was a very sensitive person, but he was also great actor. When we used to see Russia with him, he always used to win an amusing scene on the scene laugh loudest and encourage everybody to join in. And he was most exhausted after seeing laughing quite a lot when he but it was quite in order. It was humorous. He always motivated things.
Speaker 2 1:09
He was a bit of a rogue, I think so
Speaker 1 1:14
I'm sure. By the same time, he did bring an enormous amount of ability, and he gave wonderful opportunities. And, you know, it's see, when you look at the two city setup on the whole, they had had some many good films, you know, and people given opportunities. And see when you have a leader like that. I wish we had del judicial alive today and somebody like him, because he was very pro British too. Which he was more pro British than the Born British? Most The stores were always about people from this country. Yeah, I can't recollect one story which, which had a sort of different thing, even, even private Angelo. You know, he, he thought that Peter Newsome, at that time, had such great talent to give him opportunity as the same as he did with Lance Olivier. So it's he proved to be right that he, he believed in many people in this country. He believed that Britain had great opportunities. And he liked the technicians. He liked the style of English, style of life, the country pubs, the inns and the small towns. He idolized this country, and I think the people who worked for him also liked him because he was their friend. And you don't get many friends that now film businesses, you know, you should cut your foot in some respects. Never any union. Bother with him. I mean, he was so kind of decent everything had a sort of lovely family atmosphere.
Roy Fowler 3:05
You can see why he upset John Davis.
Speaker 1 3:09
I don't think the ACT ever had any complication with the two cities, because he would never allow that sort of attitude. He engaged people who are decent people, not the Rogues. And I mean, Herbert Smith was in charge of his production. He was quite a character. And the same time, Gerald was always one. He had to satisfy him, you know, and he didn't want to lose a marvelous position he
Roy Fowler 3:37
held. Did he attend rushes and did he make creative comments, or was he strictly money? No, he
Speaker 1 3:44
encouraged generally and he didn't interfere. He just was more. The encouragement, I must say, was his way appreciation, and it goes a long way when you work very hard on something. He made people feel good. Oh yes. And the same time he felt he didn't quite come off. Say, don't worry, you just re shoot. Whatever you feel is right. Maybe all right. We see if you think you can prove in it, you go ahead and do it. And to get that sort of friendship, it's very rare Indeed, indeed never knocked anybody who worked for him. You're supporting them.
Unknown Speaker 4:23
It made for very expensive pictures. Oh yes, and he always
Speaker 1 4:27
invited people around to his home before the film started. He really made everybody feel on top of the world. It's nice to have a person who took so much personal interest. Didn't he have a yacht? Were you on? I'm not quite sure if he did. I mean, we spent most of the time in England. I don't think he traveled so much, except when we made private Angela and then, because when he had to come with us, we didn't see much of him.
Roy Fowler 4:59
So private and. Know, nothing particularly to say about
Speaker 1 5:02
that. We had very nice cast and and all you know, they all enjoyed working. And it was a very happy with all mostly British technicians. We happened to use only some Italians, naturally, like a first assistant director who spoke English very well. And he was also a person who admired England very much, because he tourists during the last war. He was a captain in some little regiment, and they were, they were fog bound, and as they moved through the countryside, and suddenly the fog begin to lift, they were inside a British camp. So they went, turned, they surrendered. So what else can I do? Sensible? Yes,
Roy Fowler 6:05
1950 we're into now, and you go to Teddington, it would seem for a movie called Shadow of the eagle, was that Warner Brothers?
Speaker 1 6:13
Yes, Warner Brothers financed it and distributed it. We shot most of them in Venice and Rome. Habeck Allen was again the producer. It was an interesting film to work on. Richard Green was the leading artist, and Valentina Cortes, who was that time, one of the top Italian stars, appeared in that as well. It was a period story, and I love working our firm, because I adore Venice, and we use also many, really, the interiors. When we look through the interiors, and the director said, We ought to that's set built in the studio. I said, what for? I said, I can light it here. Standing in by. Say, I have got sufficient mice as well. I just don't need too many. I say. I checked up with the local they have a small, little local firm studio, and I think what they have got is sufficient. So it's marvelous. Can you take care of a series? Yes, no poly. No bother at all. And I loved the the firm, because it gave such Marvels opportunities. And again, it was a Hollywood director who had the direction. His name was Sidney salkov. And again, he was a very pleasant person to work for. He was very impressed with a British technician, the quality of work. And he was also a person who admired Britain very much for
Roy Fowler 7:54
had you established your own camera crew?
Speaker 1 7:59
Yes, I had Cecil Cooney. Again, I had Cecile Cooney. On many firms, he was my operator, and on private Angelo, I had a different operator, but some of Warwick. Yes, he was also very, very fine operator who I used years later, again, he had the life of person, and so was he Cooney. I mean, they've experienced, they, you know, Charmy person to have. Did
Roy Fowler 8:32
you have people starting out with you loading, who went on to fame and fortune? Did you have any camera loaders, travel loaders, starting out with you went on to fame and fortune. Well,
Speaker 1 8:47
I see I normally made it was test then be set up, and which I gave to the director one copy, and I kept one for myself as a and also continuity girl to have the same so she can see everything. I could see more or less how the whole thing shapes up, lighting wise. And the chap did only the second assistant. He loved doing that because he learned a lot about lighting, and I explained to him about this exposure and temperatures of developer and so on, and it gave him a good start. And not just being a clapper boy, and just below the magazine, I mean that you can do, you can teach somebody after the day and do it they were.
Roy Fowler 9:34
But who was that I'm asking if any lighting cameramen that we know of came out of your crew. Unfortunately,
Speaker 1 9:41
it has forgotten the name. I know he was a very nice type. He
Roy Fowler 9:47
didn't become a famous lighting camera man. Not to my I wondered if, if you any, any of the ranking cameraman of today had started with
Speaker 1 9:55
you, but not, not, not on this one. Do. Well, at any time I saw lost touch with him. I know he was very innocent still photography, so I think he learned a lot about lighting is watching me, and he said he would became a stood photographer, right? Okay,
Roy Fowler 10:18
what else to say about that film.
Speaker 1 10:22
No, we worked long hours. We the longest time I ever worked in my life was 48 hours non stop. When we got to last week or so of our film, we were running short of money. This was the English, Italian CO production scales where our partners to have, like Allen, who cheated our side, put in birds, but I won't go to details which were really faked, and so on. And Havoc Allen, from his side, was getting very short. He said he had
Speaker 2 11:00
to, I mean, the Italians were swindling, yes, and he couldn't
Speaker 1 11:04
do anything about the British embers were called in to try and sort things out. But it couldn't. So Havik Alan called the director myself, together over here, we have to cut out three or four scenes because we only got so many days left over and after that is no more finance and freight. They told me in London, just cut your losses and just do something. So I spoke to director said, Well, look, if we as we got two teams with us, if you and I work non stop and we split up our cruise. They, each one take over over certain periods of time. So they own fresh and they we do 24 hour session each one. So Hamner and said, It's mad. How can I do it? I said, Well, it's the only way I could see us fulfilling it. We're tired. It is less tired. If it doesn't work out, then we just have to accept that, fortunately for us, it worked. We No, I never sat down. I didn't sit down that chair because I kept going having coffees and this stimulant of getting everything back. We shot everything and added even a few more luxury shots at the same time, but when it was all over, I was it's a terrible feeling when you haven't stepped for two days. Worked all the time in the studio and outside. And the great achievement was we finished everything which was on required
Unknown Speaker 12:40
Was it, was it worth it? I wonder, well,
Speaker 1 12:42
that I can't argue, because it was a reasonable picture, I wouldn't say it was a normal success that time. Richard Green had a great following, and in this country, and I think also, Mercury was quite popular. I don't think it could have been. I know it had the usual West End theater premiers, and they had a reasonable run in the West End, but I lost track with it, because when I finished there, I went along with them aboard somewhere. It's unusual.
Roy Fowler 13:19
Is this now the point at which you go under contract to Associated British
Speaker 1 13:24
for better, for worse, it suddenly came up master Herman was going to make a very big musical film in this country, and he engaged lucky humps at that time, a very famous Hollywood musical director made very big musicals at Fox and also bear. Erin, at that time, was a top dancer in the United States. And David Niven was also chosen to play and many and Cesar Romero was another top class supporting artist. So that sounded got a very nice indeed. Then a chap who was going to design a set towns fair at you, I know for many years, very talented English designer. We always got them very well together. He designed the firm. So it was great fun working on the musical, which going to be a challenge, and I want to get my own back after London town to really show what I really can do. And that film turned on to be a great success. Was Here by the critics, everybody spoke very highly of it, and Hollywood director, which I also learned enormous mark from him, Bruce hammers them, called Lucky hammers them. He was very edgy, tough person, but he he managed to get temporary and something which I was fascinated watching him, how he pushed the artist to speak for. Us to act faster, not to wait until one finished talking. He cut out all unnecessary walks, and often when we used to discuss, for instance, set set designs. And he says, I love the set, my fellows, you won't see the set because the doors right in the background, and I have to start reach me close there, and by time become the scene is over. So see, why don't you put the door on the foreground, then at least you can see the set right away. Now, that is was nice to work with director who appreciate the visual side and our desire of getting the very best out of design. So there was a nice sort of feeling working with a man who was almost out to challenge the best. He wanted to make a brilliant firm in this country. He liked it here. He bought had his wife over here, stayed at a Dorchester as usual. And also Vera Ellen was a marvelous person to work for. She was a great dancer, marvelous human being, David, we all know his delightful person. So there was a very happy arrangement. This was the start of a contract. Was it? No, I, but that time I sort of, I didn't quite sign yet I, I was offered to stay there as long as I like, because the man who was that the boss, Robert Clark. He saw anyone going years before, and he admired it so much. He said, Erwin, you did us part. As for Scotland, you've done us something very special. Why do you come and work for us here? We want to make some Marvels films too. And you know, whatever you like, whatever arrangement you have in mind, let's work on that. And he lived very I used to live in Hannah center those days, and he also had a house in Green Street or some type and so I used to visit him many times at his home on Sunday for drink and so on. And I that time, didn't commit master because I didn't know what they were going to make you see. And as happy go loudly, was a master hammer production financed party. Partly by ABC and also Warners. As you know, Warners and abbc had a sort of relation, close relationship. So eventually, later on, I thought, Well, why not as long as I have a contact where I have the freedom of selection if I don't want to work on the firm. He they couldn't force me if there's an outside firm, which I wanted to do, and as long as I gave him sufficient advance warning, I was able to lower myself out. And the reason I had was that if I lower myself out the profits made. I was split 5050 for the company, but they were liable to pay me 52 weeks a year, including a two weeks paid holiday, and it gave me that opportunity, right? So that's how the whole thing sort of started.
Roy Fowler 18:23
Around this time, the late 40s, the early 50s. What sort of money was the lighting camera man making?
Speaker 1 18:29
But about at that time, 100 pounds a week was considered very, very well paid, if you get paid 52 weeks a year. Then again, I used to earn more than that because dementia was hired art was to make shake hands with devil, which was for United Artists, and also Michael Anderson. Then again, here and I were loaned out to the company, so we made more than that, so you
Roy Fowler 18:58
would go as an individual, rather than the loan out, was, let me rephrase that. In other words, you went as an individual under your contract. The abpc didn't make money on a loan out, no
Speaker 1 19:13
if their own prediction that would just get 100 pounds right. If I was loaned out, I was split difference above how many times they charge 200 pounds, so I will get 50 pounds extra, and they keep the 50 pounds, they won't do a good deal. And again, it was a very good arrangement, because they were very nice to me. They didn't push me onto some of the mind, you, some of the firms were not very exciting there, but at least they wanted to make the effort of making important films was
Unknown Speaker 19:41
Robert Clark, the power at the studio,
Speaker 1 19:44
yes, yes. Enormous power. Yes. Enormous power. Because before we started Dam Busters, which was, as you know, a great challenge, I recommended Michael Anderson when they were talking about directors. And Robert Clark was very nervous at that time. He said, Well, he's only worked, I worked with Michael Anderson, quite a number of films at the studio. I said, he's got great ability. Mr. Clark, as is the British characters. They're all British characters. I think he will be idea and whatever technically has to be done, but that'd be our responsibility. So they gave Michael Allison a break to become the director of a very, very big English production, as you know, and as it turned out, it turned out to be a tremendously successful film. In one hand, you might see as a classic that amongst the war firms, I think, will always stand out as something special, because the story was special.
Roy Fowler 20:51
How about some of the films before that? Though, should we mention those? There's one big Warners musical in there, I think, isn't there? Where's Charlie?
Speaker 1 20:59
Let's be happy was the other one musical I made for that was, I think, before,
Roy Fowler 21:06
before, after, well, probably after this list. There are other directors here too. Briefly, I'll ask you about them. Henry cast, Leslie, Alice, anything. Well,
Unknown Speaker 21:16
you see, they're all what I call, what are called average story? Yes, I hate to use that word.
Speaker 2 21:23
I know what you mean, very pleasant, but the contract directors that
Speaker 1 21:27
yes, they saw floated in and abbc were very tough to to people did they usually underpaid. Most people. They had bad contracts. Do you know I used to earn far more money? Michael Adams, who was director for many years. He didn't get his, what I call acceptance fees until he until he finished the Dam Busters, then it's only came out on very slow little bit going up here. They were bad players generally, but he was tired on a seven year contract. You see each time I didn't have that, I give them notice. I give them Fortnite notice. In my agreement.
Unknown Speaker 22:09
This was the Scottish mafia
Speaker 1 22:11
work, was it. But I was very lucky there, because having had a great job forward Robert Clark, who was a very clever businessman, but didn't know very much about firms, except he wanted the studio to be important studio, and he was surrounded by all accountants who were against the firms, who was choosing the subjects. But he had a man called gottfred there who I didn't like. Was German descent. Got for, it got for. It got for and, and then also another English. They were not hunchback. It's an Mycroft. Michael. Between the two of them, they sort of, and I, personally, I couldn't care for them, both of them. I just they were not my sort of
Roy Fowler 22:59
cup of tea. Put it this way, the films are very undistinguished. Oh,
Speaker 1 23:03
absolutely. They're always against everything, against everything. It doesn't matter if you bought a very good subject, which I did once or twice. They turn everything down. The used to say has to have a beginning in the middle and end. I said, Well, what's wrong? The End could be different to what well, you know, audiences this and the last, the audience can be excited about where you do things. Who
Roy Fowler 23:27
was bringing over the American directors? We've had Bruce hunderson, we've got David Butler, George Marshall made a picture. There is that the studio
Speaker 1 23:39
on one hand, Marc Hellman brought over, for instance, he love and to direct. Let's be happy. Where's Charlie was brought over by Warners themselves. David Butler, time was one of the top musical directors. Delightful person. I had a great rapport with him, and he was marvelous to work with man who was not only had a great sense of humor, but also a wonderful director, immensely experience, used to clock him with the work done in the studio. They used to, yeah, such a great sense of humor. You had a car too, and you had a surprise seeing him going
Roy Fowler 24:18
through the mornings in Hollywood at Warners, people had everyone clock. Oh, yes, oh, she was
Speaker 1 24:24
to have four pages in his pocket. I said, that's what I'm going to shoot today. When I said, Fine, and he was great fun to work. Also very bold job. Played the leading part, Where's Charlie? And I had Norman white then operating for me, he was brilliant operator, technical again, yes, and it was great fun. We we enjoyed working on that film because it had colorful tunes with nice settings and exception find direct. Her Mrs. Bolger used to always give the director a lot of headaches. She used to often send a loud voice when we're rehearsing his her husband, all we did on the stage differently, David, I said I can't remember her first name, David Butler, she would, don't forget. This is for firm. We cannot hold on so long on the savings. We go. Why not? I said, well, because they all says, No, I don't agree with that at all. And he had all the time this sort of back biting going on, and all the time Ray Bolger was rehearsing his steps and pretended not to listen to hear all this. Who won, usually? Well, David Butler managed to fend off tactfully, because he thought to attack he could have totally get the hell off set. He had a right to do that, but didn't. But he got him down a lot. He suffered in the building. We have this constant banking
Roy Fowler 26:07
it does happen. I'll just run down the titles, and if there's anything you want to say about any of them, just add it. Father is doing fine. Well, woman's angle with Leslie Arles, we mentioned, didn't we? Yes, father is doing fine. Henry Cass, Isn't life wonderful again? Harold French, will any gentleman. This is
Speaker 1 26:28
again Michael. Any gentleman was one of the early films of Michael Anderson as a director in a studio, and as I mentioned you, I recommended him the studio. So I think Cole got his first chance as a leading artist, and we had quite a nice cast. It was quite amusing story. It's a difficult film to direct, but Michael Allison having that sort of flair, and he had a great sort of sense of humor, too, and he suited him. And it worked out very well, because all the firms had to be dead on schedule, because nobody accountants watching every penny.
Roy Fowler 27:12
He's making a great name for himself there by this time, presumably very efficient and capable. Oh, absolutely very professional
Speaker 1 27:20
as we nice to work with somebody. I mean, I meet over 10 firms over a period of 20 years with him, and we've known each other. We never coward once. We never had a bad word. We always were very complimentary in Our Stars and great friends
Roy Fowler 27:42
before we come to the Dam Busters, there's one further Hollywood director. I'll ask you about. There's a film due in the jungle with George Marshall as director.
Speaker 1 27:53
But George Marshall was a typical tough Hollywood director, and he looked like a pious fighter. And we went to Africa on that firm, to Kenya and Rhodesia, that time in South Africa for location work. And he was a heavy drinker. Used to have a boiler makers, beer and the whiskey chaser. And after we finished shooting, he was, I say, very elated, because he was that type of person who liked to enjoy himself. And Dana Andrews played the leading part. Was also another heavy drinker. So Marc Herman had, as a producer, his hands would have so many plants at night time, you know, and there was no call, no point calling a meeting discussing, because they weren't incapable to discuss next day's work. So as a producer, he he was very upset at times, and as his English was very limited, he didn't, couldn't express himself as well as he should have done. George Marshall being a tough cookie from Harley wood just ignored it. But the same time, it still was not unpleasant. Film was quite a nice film. Had David Farrell, his world, playing in that and as I mentioned to Dana Anderson, with that time, after the best years of our lives, he was a very big star in Hollywood. Dana happy doing guy. He
Unknown Speaker 29:34
wrecked his career, I think,
Speaker 1 29:38
number times I pulled him out of the bar. He was just going to fight somebody I got in between him and the other people nearly was punched by a locus and was sad. Because
Roy Fowler 29:49
it's astonishing the number of alcoholics, yes in the business, especially insecure.
Speaker 1 29:54
You see, yes, she had insecure later on, when I. Work with them also. Same thing.
Unknown Speaker 30:03
Tracy,
Speaker 1 30:05
see that in Hollywood, as you know, it's a very rough, rough and tumble, as Britain has always been civilized and nice and tolerant. Well,
Roy Fowler 30:14
we had our fair share of drinkers when you say
Unknown Speaker 30:18
Burton and Judy, see, well, I'm
Roy Fowler 30:21
not sure there was some sort of compulsion at work. But anyway, let's not anticipate the later years. So George Marshall was just, again, a Hollywood
Speaker 1 30:31
professional. You know, no pubs with him. Just get on with it. And he just said, in in Hollywood, you just shoot a formula. They don't want any geniuses to see them. And so far as he's concerned, he wanted to keep working, and he did a job very well. I mean, let's competent piece of filming.
Roy Fowler 30:55
Do you know if they were any of them supervising the cut, or was that, again, Hollywood style of it was someone else.
Speaker 1 31:04
The Russians, the rough cup used to be sent off to Hollywood. They had, it was an editor, supervising editor, coming over, just washed, looking at things. But they didn't interfere much. They made Warner suggestions in a very tactful, civilized manner, you know. But we had complete British crew, yes. And was 95% I would say, British. So
Roy Fowler 31:26
there was no feeling of being colonized by Hollywood at that stage, not really because,
Speaker 1 31:31
I mean, they found the finance and Warners, as you know, being a very powerful set up. And Jerry platinum was then the executive and charge productions, who were another person I met at Rock studios when I was there, and a very nice person who, who was there for 20 was 21 years or more with Warners in England, European chief, which is quite an achievement. It's a tough job for that length of time? Oh, absolutely. It's a record, I would say. So he enjoyed his stuff. He he didn't want any bother. And he said, Well, there'd be no Erwin any problems. We'll try and work it out in civilized way. I see, of course,
Roy Fowler 32:17
does that bring us then to danbusters? Because that's one of the more famous British films of the 50s, isn't it? Why don't you tell us about that? What you remember well,
Speaker 1 32:27
Dam Busters. Before we started, I was called into Robert Clark's office, and he said to me, I have a great disappointment when I know how much you'll be looking forward to your Dam Busters, Mr. CJ latter, who was one of the heads and Representative Warners and various other directors, felt the studio were not capable of making this type of film, and therefore we have to cancel it. I said. Mr. Clark, this would be dreadful thing to do is the insight of people here. It's actually untrue
Roy Fowler 33:04
how much preparation had been done at this stage. Well, the
Speaker 1 33:08
sets already been designed. And you see, we hadn't done much more than just getting the sets, and you're always weeks beforehand, and we may have made one or two artists tests that time, and we looked at locations as well in Lincoln, wherever, and we were just beginning to prepare it. I was so outraged. I said, Mr. Clark, my agreement with the camp, as you know, is I do want to hand in notice right now, because I feel it's you've been being been bullied by people. We have no right to make these comments. I personally guarantee whatever is the script, and you know me long enough now and you, I think you would appreciate my work and my honesty to you that it would be disaster, not only to a studio and also to everybody here has to say, we can't make this film. Will you tell tell your other directors that I will resign and forth with if they do that? I know it. I don't mean that amount to the directors, but I think it's a disgrace to even suggest this. So they come on very short. He had another meeting, and they said, right, well, go ahead with the firm. But they were, they did it. They in a very malicious way, especially CJ Lata being a murder. He didn't care to us about British achievements the last war, to help with that, you know, you know, many Americans have a sort of attitude. We were the big boys. We came in. We saved Europe, we saved Britain. You know, we the second front. But never been without our help. Eisenhower and the rest of it anyhow, we carried on the film in. Everything on the floor was fine, and we had another unit supposed to be shooting all the aerial photography. And as we're going along, hardly any shots arrived. We had about 500 setups, 500 shots, including many of the tally matte background, which we had to get. And it's worth visual shots these point of view. These were storyboards, absolutely so when we finished shooting on the floor, Robert Clark sent for me. Ellen went travel, as you know, probably Goon do with the air photography, because we have nothing. We only got about three or four shots all this time been alone, the last nine weeks. That's all we got to show from why
Roy Fowler 35:41
had they not been obtained? What was going wrong? I want good
Speaker 1 35:45
because it would mean saints and against my own fellow colleagues. All I say is this, I took over the aerial photography. They had
Unknown Speaker 35:53
an aerial unit. Did they Yes.
Speaker 1 35:58
And I, as you know, I made. I flew with the RAF the early part of my career. I liked flying. When I arrived at Stanton airfield, I immediately gave instructions on so and Michael Allison said to me, now, Erwin, you get whatever you feel you get. I trust you. You got to experience, you know, what's required. And I immediately start shooting. And I shot all the over 500 setups, which included the traveling mat and point of view shots from the air, the most terrifying experience my life, flying with three Lancasters in tight formation at patchy ground level, over tree tops, and I fought for mostly from the Wellington bomber gunners tower, where you completely open, where I could swing on 180 degrees and over the intercom, I would give instructions, and there was complicated shots. You can think of flying in tight formation, coming over the sea, going over land, turning day into night, which is a tough job to do. Luckily, through my documentary days, I learned a lot what type of filters to use, and I required sort of knowledge, which was, I think, ahead of most other light encounters in those times. So I managed to get turned day to night, even the most you might say, Not perfect conditions. I always expected to go on occasion, I trained to try and adjust things and see things right away, and if I saw the light was trying to break through, beams of sun rays coming through, and I shot against the light. And the sea was all lit up here, and there are little patches of light and and the dangers were flying through. That to me, that was the atmosphere. I was looking for moonlight, and I used special type of photos, which I discovered were the perfect way of getting Day for Night.
Speaker 2 38:09
Would you care to say what they were? Oh,
Unknown Speaker 38:13
yes, mostly work beautifully
Roy Fowler 38:17
for the record. Would you care to say what filters you use on your day? For nine, I used
Speaker 1 38:21
the 72 which was the heaviest, but the one I found which was the more ideal one was the 29 filter, which was not quite so heavy as a 72 gave a slightly more extra range, so between 29 and 72 but 29 was the main one, as I mentioned
Unknown Speaker 38:43
this though you would use them separately, not together, oh
Speaker 1 38:47
yes, depending on the conditions you see. And then again, I had to be my own assistant camera operator, as I done before documentaries, right? What was the camera I used? And 400 foot Mitchell camera, because I need, I wanted, I needed a camera which was 100% steady, which Mitchell, we know is the best one. Also fauna. Foot magazine is and, and I think I use, also towers magazines. I changed the mover because I didn't want to reload too often, and I used to swing my saber on in the rear guns turret. And we had a most terrifying six weeks. I shot everything.
Roy Fowler 39:35
Did the camera have a lens turret? Or was it just Oh yes, yes, yes,
Speaker 1 39:39
I could swing them out and change over. Just what
Roy Fowler 39:43
were you using in the way of prime lens? Well, I
Speaker 1 39:46
used great selection. I used to have one run. I use a wide angle lens where I had three bombers, and then I switched run. I use another cursor shots, and to get all the variety. So I used to use four or five different lines each time changing the lenses get to different things. If I had to have a zoom lens which was not in existence, then would have been an enormous help. I would have saved many setups but same time. And one thing I noticed, which was quite fantastic, the vibration from from the aircraft didn't affect the steady for shooting, but it made a stop change. I looked through the camera, and I thought, is taking the look light and lighter. So swing the camera around, and I saw it opened up by a couple of stops
Unknown Speaker 40:37
the vibration was doing,
Speaker 1 40:40
yes, so what I used to do, then immediately, I put a piece. When I get decided which stop, I put some tape over so it couldn't move, and then tie on, so I had my hands full, directing, firm, full director, operating it being assistant, telling him, the the the pilots, what I required, which was very complicated. You just imagine flying a low level most of the time. And then I always remember one of the toughest shots we went over Durban Warner in Sheffield, which was one of our early part of the sequences. We used it for day and night, and I told the the pilot be used in the varsity air car. Now we're shooting from the front forward. And I had a small piece of glass cut out, which was the Air Ministry gave me permission to do that. It wouldn't affect the, what are called pressure inside the aircraft that were flying very low. Anyhow, it didn't matter to that extent. And we went over dermal water, over the dam, and chose the very high hilliers and bottom thing now, told the pilot to delay it as long as possible before he lifted the aircraft just to get over the top. And we did that again four or five times. When we came returned to scamps in the airfield, there was a needed revolution with the crew. He turned apart and said, You're trying to get us killed. What's the matter with you? Why you've and because everyone's thrown right back, you see, because of the sudden lift up. You felt your whole inside coming up. But the effect on screen was quite staggering. See, we needed shots like that, of course, and even shots which I were not in the script, and I suddenly saw them because I had a free hand from Michael Anderson, I photographed them. So it was a great, wonderful time I had, I was given credit also for the air photography, as you probably know, and as you know, it came turned out to be the most exciting war firm. It had two loyal premiers, unheard of before the old empire. Cinema used to seats 5000 people. The first royal crime, the prince of Margaret appeared, was sorted out, and there were so many other people couldn't see it, so they decided to have another one the following night. So you just imagine a marvelous atmosphere of having a highly successful film appreciated by everybody. I have loved it. Absolutely loved it, because, as you know, their achievement during the last war on the danbus is something which is never, never by any country, been equal.
Roy Fowler 43:39
A few questions, did you have a meter at this more meters in use at this point, or were you, were you working only with your eye when you were doing this, Air to Air stuff? A light meter? No,
Speaker 1 43:53
I didn't. You see I I've never been 100% sort of light beaters. I always have been used from a days of being camera operator. Could judge a lighting by looking through stepping down. I can just see the highlights and I can see just inside the shadows. When I had that didn't matter what the speech and film was, I knew it you
Roy Fowler 44:16
were doing this up aloft, yes, always by Yeah, going back to the political problems in the studio. Do you think the Americans were trying to kill it, or were they just being small minded? Or, I mean, what was that as problem? Well,
Speaker 1 44:32
I think you see, they felt there were the top dogs. That's a typical American approach in life. They want to be the top dogs. They want to make use of you and keep you just where they want you to keep well,
Roy Fowler 44:46
that's the same. The same applies now. But was this latter himself, or was that Warners? No
Speaker 1 44:53
latter. It wasn't just didn't hit off a worm and Clark being in. British representative and the other board directors, but all on the distribution side, they were against the studio. You see, mostly against the studio.
Roy Fowler 45:08
They probably just wanted the warners product. And you know, the lots of many
Speaker 1 45:12
patriotic people. Yeah, I hate to say this coming from a person like myself. I've been more patriotic than people are British born, because I
Roy Fowler 45:24
you know, attitudes towards patriotism vary, but if we could just concentrate on the film making, I'm curious how Hollywood or American distributors affected the policies of a British company in a British studio, was, was latter, always against production. Do
Speaker 1 45:46
only on the damn bus, particularly, wasn't very keen on but he always had a great say as well during their various meetings beforehand, and if they had American artists like Master Herman, always brought over big stars. He liked that you see right away, because when he had David Niven and also Vera Allen as one star, that's fine. When we had another firm, but Vera Allen second one, and again, she was big star, that's fine. There was no complication. But when it came to danbus was so British, so successful, did it have an adequate
Unknown Speaker 46:27
budget?
Speaker 1 46:28
Oh, yes, Grant. I always remember our budget was 250,000 pounds, which was considered quite high. And I think we came in under budget. I think 225 I correct member, because Michael Ernest and I, we worked very fast and we didn't waste time on the floor, and even when we shot all the flying shots, only just a few of us. I mean, my salary was nothing compared. But what we achieved, and now screen time, I affirmed, in six weeks with all sorts of conditions, not perfect conditions, you know. And when I used to get weather report before we took off, they say it was two fifths Erwin, I said, that's good enough. They would take a chance on that. And I got into the air in Noel time. See, most of the Lancasters were still had half the equipment missing. They were mostly COVID, especially for us. I always remember one day before we took off now, I said to the pilot, I hope you have enough fuel in your tanks, because we're going to go from the Humber district, over to Wales. And we don't want to return, because I have many shots over Anglesey, the shots over Holland, when we come over the Dutch coast, which was beginning of the whole raid. And one of the chaps went on top of the Lancaster, I think, and he put a dipstick in, and he found that one of the tanks was Patty dry. If I hadn't made that stupid remark, because it naturally filled it up, we would have cranked a lot, because if one engine had cut out, but we're flying tight formation, that would have been the end of everything. And those days, the ground staff were not as efficient as they should have been. The same as the, what you call tactical supervision of aircraft when we came in for the very last flight. And as I finish off on the Wellington bomber aircraft, they got equipment out of it, and just as we're going to leave the aircraft, the air inspector arrived and looked underneath the wing, and he said to part, this aircraft is not airworthy. He.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Unknown Speaker 0:02
I just, just pick it up at that point. You say? He said it was not. Where were they?
Speaker 1 0:09
Well, he Are you ready? Yes, yes. So he said to me, many stresses in the wing, the aircraft supposed to been checked over all the time, and he had, they dismantled the aircraft and took it away by him, by law. Just imagine a luck I had. I mean, it's somebody must have liked us, and that's
Speaker 2 0:36
actually true, yes. Well, it was an enormously successful picture in all ways, wasn't it, financially
Speaker 1 0:43
in every respect, it's long ago, and it's still coming back on television. Many, many times everybody's heard about the film. It's
Unknown Speaker 0:50
part of British history and culture. Oh, absolutely.
Speaker 1 0:53
And had every they released to be part of it. Great sacrifices and great people. Barnes, Wallace idea and opposition as usual. You know, it's from high ups.
Speaker 2 1:06
Yes. Anything more to say about it as a film, or we probably covered it, except
Speaker 1 1:14
one always feels part of some Bucha has a marvelous story where you would people, you would respect, admire for what they've been through the achievements and to come in with the lights on. But they most heavily defended German area on the canals, but all the anti air, with all the aircraft and the aircraft guns waiting for it. As you know, 16 were shot down. They were very brave
Speaker 2 1:44
men indeed in the war. Shall we move on to now and forever? Mario zampi, who's, I think, a rather underestimated director in his way. Did you enjoy working with him? Well, I
Speaker 1 1:57
liked him very much because he was typically Italian, bigger than life, had a great flair. He loved women, of course, and he wanted to be to make this film as like a painting. So he said, Erwin, what do you think you register? What can we do to give it some something just as you and I like Michael, Andrew and so on. So I said, Well, I've been thinking about this. I like to make some tests now. I like you to fuse all the lights to stop it, not to use what I call direct light, as it is, front of big arc. I had a large tracing paper away from the lamp so the heat wouldn't discolor it. And when you switch it on, it had the same style as when you look at the light of a painters, especially Rembrandt or the other ones, it's all diffused lightly. It's not direction lighting we have in the studio. So we made a comparison just of the normal direction lighting, and then having this tracing paper put in front of it, it just worked like a charm.
Speaker 2 3:08
It's interesting. Had you encountered tracing paper before? Or was I
Speaker 1 3:13
used tracing paper occasionally on certainly where I wanted to get some more mellow light, but I hadn't designed it in such a way that all the lights I'd be using, which see mostly use art light, yes, and and give it a diffused who and gentle shadows. And I found a one light would light up like when you look at the painters, they only use one streak of light there, and then a little bit here and there, and the rest goes into shadow.
Speaker 2 3:40
It's a very common technique. No, but was it your innovation? Oh, yes,
Speaker 1 3:46
when I started that, naturally, people heard about the management thought, I can't really be mad. I mean, warned Dean, who was then General Manager, said to many people, Erwin Goon on a bench, what's he was having a big arc and putting that thing and cutting down the light like that. And she's trying to diffuse the light. Oh, buddy, put a diffuse on the camera. If you doesn't like it. He wants to do the lighting. He wants to keep a definition. I mean, why diffuse the camera? Because it's not the same thing. No, of course not. You see. So any kind of long story short, it was a starch of diffused lighting techniques, same as I start defocus, I thought for color, and also the color looked nicer. It gave it a more of a slightly cooler style. I didn't like the red face and things like that. You had more control. So Technicolor had a job to turn it red mind. If they wanted to do it, they could do it, but it made it easier for them. And I remember George Goon was then a head of astute the laboratory Technicolor, said to Erwin, what are you doing? Because I've been seeing your artists recently, and you have a very. Very subdued lighting on the state and we find it very easy, much easier to grade it this time than we normally have. We don't need to use so much correction. So I explained to him. I said, Well, why don't you come down for lunch, George, I'll show you can see on the set what we're doing. And he was very impressed with that. He thought it's a very nice news. It also made Technicolor look nice, and it was, from our point of view, a nice innovation. And Mao Zed adored it because he wanted to be more romantic, as his story was a romantic story. And Janet Scott, I think, played the leading part. She was very young girl who had a great ability. So, you know, it was quite fun. But work with mile,
Speaker 2 5:58
did other camera men at the studio start to use the technique which, you know,
Speaker 1 6:02
I think people always find out from Chief electricians who pass on to somebody else are not trying to. It sounds all wrong for me, but it's you can't keep things a secret for too long. The only keep seeker what you use the camera for filtering and so on. I mean, sometimes I use different filters as well to give it a little slightly warmer, cooler, or even sudden, gauzes, which I have got made up especially, which adds enormously to visual side. But see, you can't keep things completely secret same. I used to like work with Yorks, which were soft filler light and gives you a lovely glow light. And I do direction lighting is fine for certain subjects, but most subjects should be looked at the same as the painters. When you go to any art gallery, you do not see direction lighting, very rarely, I think. And a lot to be said, it brings out much more finesse. The actors look better. If you have a difficult leading lady, they look nicer. And also, from a lab artist point of view, they prefer it. They mean to prefer the results. So this sort of diffused lighting, and also I used to reflect so much light from white boards give a little pillar in the background, because in those days, Technicolor shadow air had to be very carefully balanced, you have to fill in quite a lot, otherwise becomes too contrasty, and then it looks bad, unless you want to have a very over contrasty picture, which I don't think most people want to. So that technique, and was, I think, very successful, and it opened up new eras of further development. You see, I know we can still go further, because I hate using very large units. Normally. I prefer to use like good DeCamp. Used to work small units. It's more fun. You get much more interest in it. So if you have to use a large unit just were to make it work, all over the set one source only, not having 15 shadows. To me, that's terrible on so much back light of all angle. To me, that's another harvesting which I use empty hate
Speaker 2 8:40
shadows all over the walls my floor. Yes, I always call it the Merton Park
Speaker 1 8:44
School of light. See, I got on paper with Sammy mcgannon because he hated that school of so many backlashes, Erwin, I'm delightful. You hardly use backlight, only just to pick out a little here and there, but not burn out the shoulders, unless we deliberately want to shoot against light, then we make the pattern of lighting against windows and big shafts of light coming through, which are legitimate slide sources. See, I always like to try to design the lighting, which, from nature point of view, is the most effective way. And it's amazing. How often the simplest ideas are the most exciting ones, and also the color design you see. And having worked most with very civilized, intelligent production designers who share your your enthusiasm, and they like suggestions, because photographing is certain. Things don't always come out of what you see to the eye. Unfortunately, because we haven't reached our stage, it was, it's quite so it reflects exactly what the eye sees. So we have to give it a little help. Hand.
Speaker 2 10:05
Shall we continue then with the chronology? Again, there are so many films, and I don't suppose there's much point in going into them all in detail, unless they're very special ones. Chase the crooked shadow, which is Michael Anderson, again, I think that was
Speaker 1 10:23
a very interesting film, because the producer was James Jr, very nice person, and the story was a very interesting thriller. We had an Todd No, not Antoine. And Bancroft, I think American actress, and Richard Todd, again, playing the leading part. And we went to Spain on location, and we had quite a lot of shots in studio, and we also had lot of hand held camera shots, because Michael Allison was also reflected to to ideas. I said, why can't we get somebody to walk with a camera and point of view, what he looks sees things like that? So we get another dimension. It's amazing, but hand held cameras can add a lot to it, because by going on the track, everything is so smooth out, and you'll you either get that or a big bump. But when you move along and you you can control it, it's very exciting. So we use a lot of hand held shots, and we also mounted the camera location point of view shots on bicycles coming down the hill and missing other people because they now roads over the coastal roads, and Costa Brava was very dangerous. So we got many points of view shots, which you could never achieve. And we put the camera on the bicycle and on a little black in front, and went along get some shots like that. And then again, you had many sequences a location which were full of atmosphere. And again, it was a very successful firm that
Speaker 2 12:14
time. Important question, Erwin, have you started to work in scope? Yet? Have you started to work in scope?
Speaker 1 12:23
Yes, I've worked on scope, on quite number of firms Now, which one was the Have we
Speaker 2 12:29
started yet in that? Which was the first? Do you remember?
Unknown Speaker 12:34
Let me think now,
Unknown Speaker 12:39
it would have been around this time I imagine.
Speaker 1 12:41
Can I look at the list once more? Please. Thank you, because I'll stop.
Speaker 2 12:48
So Chase the crooked shadow. Then you say was a very successful picture and satisfying from your point of view.
Speaker 1 12:55
Oh yes, was great fun. So I always had a happy relationship with Michael Anderson, and both our works always compliment. You
Speaker 2 13:02
did an enormous amount of work with him. The next picture, I think, is your first scope picture, the naked Earth. But you said danbusters was widescreen. It was widescreen. Yes, I didn't realize that moved into widescreen. No, this was, this was without, with the sound of lens, but with a hard, a hard. Matt,
Speaker 1 13:24
yes, was 175, to one. You know, with the wide screen they showed that time. And that one, as I mentioned to the neck, is us, which because I knew Daryl standing for many years, and he asked for me to work on this film. And he also had a Hollywood director of Vincent German, yes, an old timer. And he was also very, again, delightful, personally worked with.
Speaker 2 13:51
Tell me about your reactions to scope. First of all, did you have the chance to shoot tests? Well,
Speaker 1 13:56
I made some tests, and when I shot the test at elsley studios, I got my second assistant to walk through the shot with a hoop, and as he walked through the shot, I wanted to see if the hoop remained the same shape to my absolute maze. When we saw the test on some of the lenses, it became distorted as he got to the center. So immediately, put that lens aside and notified Hollywood, who sent over the lenses that there were about three lenses out of six or seven to send me which are unacceptable
Speaker 2 14:35
of different focal lengths. Were they? Yes, they're different focal length,
Speaker 1 14:39
but they all had distortion centers, and I couldn't possibly photograph a leading lady and make her face look twice as wide and says she'd kill me. And furthermore, I found it unacceptable when Darryl darling heard that, he was amazed and said, you know, you upset everybody in studios. I'm sorry, Mr. Sonnen, because he. Just the test on the way to you. You see them in your own theater. See if you feel I if that's not correct. So anyhow, it kind of long so short. They were replaced. There was no argument. He respected that I stood up against the studio wouldn't allow them to beat to bar beat me. So we got them replaced. Being typically Hollywood. You see, they always kept the best lens for themselves, and never mind it made out, out of the country that I have whatever is left over, and they don't know much about it, that's too bad. So I found Darwin was wonderful person to work for. He was very tough.
Unknown Speaker 15:40
Where was he based in Hollywood at this time,
Speaker 1 15:44
they came over with us because always leading lady was his girlfriend. See Julie Greco got the part. She replaced John Collins was originally down, who was then a girlfriend of his. And there was some share, I think she had a nervous breakdown. Something happened, because she had to decline and was replaced by Julie Gregor, who was then a great French cabaret star and also darlings girlfriend. So we went to Africa. We shot many interesting locations for some black and white, and I found it quite interesting. I don't never like to shape a cinema scoop or scoop, because I find it's like a letter box. You know, you have no height, you have to always go back miles and miles get a long shot because no height. And also, when you have close ups, you know, it's always difficult to line up a close up, you have so much wasted space either side.
Speaker 2 16:53
A friend of mine at the time, when it first came in, said, It's like seeing films through the rear window of a Buick.
Speaker 1 17:00
That's right, exactly, because no artists, very few artists ever used that scape, that shapes, always four by three, mostly like like white screen. You know, all the painters decided only one or two exceptions. That's not the shape and it's difficult to compose, yes, and also lack of definition, difficult to compose, difficult to stage. Oh yes, yes. And the definition too, was always a big business, and there was no depth of focus. Let us stop down a certain extent, to help the lenses I hate. I didn't, I didn't care much for, for, for the extra, what they call deficiencies and lack of even when panel vision came out, I remember I used to have many arguments with Sidney Samuelson because he was mainly representative. And I used to throw back many times the lenses, I'm sorry, the lack of sharpness. Oh, you got to stop dumb or Erwin. I say, well, I already down to f4 and I don't see why I have to go on a studio shoot. It more like a location film, just because the lens is not sharp enough. And also lighting wise, means I have to use far larger units, which makes it much more cumbersome
Unknown Speaker 18:19
of the various systems on offer at that time. Did you have a preference?
Speaker 1 18:25
Well, personally, I always prefer the widescreen. I would never been
Speaker 2 18:30
right wide screen with a prime lens. Yes, all the anamorphic processes. Did you
Speaker 1 18:36
not over and past, but because one actually has to, had to take steps to make things work. But they always see it's a shape which I dislike. And also, when you operate a camera in any movement, you have to be very discreet where you use that. Otherwise, the whole thing swims around you. The thing which was utter amazed, when revolution came out here, which was, unfortunately not a great success, I thought you mean the recent, terrible way. So I think swimming around and see that used like an ordinary camera, see with parallel vision or scope, you had to use more discussion. You had to let the artist do the work and go frame and not to shoot around. And any movement should be done in a very, very subtle manner. So you should be aware the camera is moving. See, I was brought up not to tell the cameras moving. It should always go. Part of the action should be unimposed. Well,
Speaker 2 19:39
the other problem in a similar area is the abuse of the zoom. Oh,
Speaker 1 19:44
absolutely. Again, a zoom was only used successfully when it made man and a woman. I think leluce did a great job on that marvelous. But he changed the focus and made the whole thing change into something else, and the Zoom was. Is very great. Finance be great for us. But, you know, this, again, is a question of using little, but I called delicate touch, as per this
Speaker 2 20:11
years. You know, talent is also a word that one could use, right? Vincent Sherman, who was Noel Warners director, as I remember, wasn't
Speaker 1 20:21
he was he was a very nice, I found a very nice person. He was another person who, unfortunately, that time, lost his whole stat stage stature in Hollywood. Because doesn't take long, if you have one or two in different films and they don't make money, you know, you relegated to the Second Division world, yes, and he was hoping very much, as Darwin zalig was the boss, to please Him. And I found him delightful person. You know, we used to share the same sort of tent when we on location. Because, you know, we always had to double up sometimes, and we always used to talk about things before going off to sleep. And he, again, was a man who's been through a lot in his time in Hollywood. Because be a director in Hollywood is pretty ghastly, I would say, because the front office would suddenly send something along next morning, you look around, there's not a person there, and you come up and say, I'm sorry. They send me along to take over from you. They don't even often tell a director it's been been replaced, and it's fear all the time. How long are you going to be there and that sort of thing.
Speaker 2 21:46
You say it was an African location, and Zanuck was there. Was he doing his being quite hunted, but
Speaker 1 21:52
we felt quite a lot near en Tabby in Uganda. And actually, we filmed, I think, nearly every all the locations nearby, we went to merchants and Ford, which was another part of Africa where were all elephants and lions. We had lived in tents, because it's amazing how a British coup coming straight out settle down in the midst of Africa and all getting red in the face, because with the sun speaking down there, they're all working hard and doing their best and love so And no, hardly any complaints. Just said a bit hard, but you obviously was. I wanted to
Speaker 2 22:45
know if Zanuck were hunting game at this stage. No, he, he
Speaker 1 22:49
sort of, he seemed to be more or less concerned of being near his leading lady so you could see at nighttime, keep an eye on Yes. Then again, what he didn't realize she had an affair with Richard Todd, and she sort of made out she was too tired and she wasn't her room. Anyhow, it's a long story. I
Speaker 2 23:10
think Juliet Greco gave him as good as she got. Some of the others didn't, but she was a very tough one wasn't, oh yes,
Speaker 1 23:17
she then again to work with. She was very civilized and very nice. I had a sort of typical French, you know, personality. I found it very nice to work with. Also Darrell zelling, despite he was very he loved Africa, and he was very impressed with the atmosphere. And he was always on our side. You know, it's nice to have a producer. I was conveying Noel, very
Speaker 2 23:47
experienced. Noel, absolutely, we're into the post three strip era. No, I see was this in color the naked earth? No, black and white. It was in black and white. Yes. Have you used Eastman negative by this time? I
Speaker 1 24:05
think so. When I looked through a list of productions, yes, actually, when Eastman came out, I wasn't very impressed with that, because I found that Eastman, compared with Technicolor, was very coarse and it was sharper because you could use any cameras, you know, any lens, but the color quality didn't match, in my opinion, to the Technicolor standard. There is or was. And I always remember Christian chatters, I by the last two lighting cameras who were hanging on to technical until they withdrew the cameras. Three strip, yes, yeah. And then we had to go on Eastman, which we both didn't like you.
Speaker 2 25:00
And did either you or he shoot the last three strip picture in this country? Do you think?
Speaker 1 25:07
Yes, I think so. I think I have an idea. We must have been, because after that technical adjust only process that became redundant, you know, which was,
Speaker 2 25:19
but they made up the prints, didn't yes, oh yes. What was the process to make the matrices from Eastman color to Yes, to break down the Eastman negative? That's
Speaker 1 25:31
why they eventually still carried on making the separation if you want, if you wanted it for printing, you had a choice, or you just have direct Eastman printing.
Speaker 2 25:44
Which? Which of those did you prefer? Eastman? Presumably, was, was coarser, as you say at the beginning. Well, that's
Speaker 1 25:51
why I changed my lighting. By using more diffused lighting, you see that have enormous color. So this where my experiment paid dividends. By using that I minimized the coarseness of Eastman at that time, and the batches varied very much, and some would be coarse and the others, and so you had more control by using wherever you could, because naturally, years later, Eastman did improve in its quality, more consistency, but my opinion, was a great hydro Technicolor drop down, because I warned them for Many years that a lack of definition encouraged their enemies. And there were many enemies who kept saying Fauci color. Even Desmond Dickinson used to say Fauci color again. Now they did improve to certain extent the definition, but it was too late by time they they reached near enough Eastman quality standard. Everybody said we want Eastman number one. Don't want technical research anymore. You want it sharper and things like that. Well,
Unknown Speaker 27:10
technically columns cumbersome
Speaker 1 27:14
and also enormous weight to blimp the camera and the process, even I mentioned George Goon many times, why don't you have a more lightweight blimp? Very sad,
Speaker 2 27:26
very noisy cameras. Even with the blimp, it was still noisy. I
Speaker 1 27:31
know that was very sad in one hand, because they had it down to a fine art See, I got so used to it technically working. I knew what I couldn't do, what I should do, and they also were very helpful. And I was a lovely marriage in many respects, and had very retrospect for him, like Bernard happy he was then in charge of all and he used to help me of all the laying out the printing for premiers and so on, and grading. Still
Speaker 2 28:03
talking of three strip of the three processing centers. Did you have experience of them all Rome, England and Hollywood, or did you only work with the English the three Technicolor labs? Yes, right. There was Rome, there was England, London and there was Hollywood. Yes, which did you have experience of all three? Or just of London,
Speaker 1 28:28
the room and London room? Yes, room in London, London were the best, right? Not even Americans used to admit that London, there was something in the water. Used to say legs juice, there was more lime, whatever the water, which helped the color development. And they compared it. They made tests, and which is quite amazing. One was processed in London and the other one in Hollywood. There was a hell of a difference and interesting. The one in the room I wasn't too keen on because when I worked on shoes of fishermen, it was suggested as technical. I had laboratory in Rome, and I found they were very inconsistent, terribly inconsistent. Then, without telling me, they were using FAR Rania material, which is the Italian color stock. There's a print, yes, for the rushes was terrible and I couldn't understand it. Oh, look, suddenly brown. So I said to the contact man for technical room, why is it all brown? Maybe because it's Farran. I said, Well, you didn't tell me using Farran afterwards. Eastman, why do you use something without telling me? Because it's an important film, and you are a courtesy. You should at least let me know, because when we made a test, there's a Fauci. Different to what we see now, or for tests we use Kodak. Thank you very much. So I raised hell. I said, Well,
Speaker 2 30:09
there's nothing like little help from the laughing matters like
Speaker 1 30:13
that. They hated me for it. I took it away from Rome and they went straight back to London. I told the producer, I'm sorry I say, I know it sounds very harsh. I just lost complete confidence when people do that. Why should I see or should you see inferior color, which is not my work,
Speaker 2 30:33
you know, it doesn't nobody any good. Your next film seems to have been a French German CO production at Bavaria studios. Oh yes, that was casino de Paris. But
Speaker 1 30:51
casino poly was an Anglo German CO production, Anglo German, German French CO production, German, French CO production. I suddenly had a message from Carl Herman was master, Herman's brother, that they were unhappy on the film they had started. Hunenberg was the French director. Could I come over and see if I can be helpful to them. I went on the floor and I saw the lighting Chairman had a very bad relationship with the director, so the candle show is short. I suggested that I would photograph to the American director who did all the musical numbers and let the German camera man carry him on. Hunell To finish the story, part of the story, because I didn't like to take over for somebody whose work I'd seen. I thought they looked quite nice. There was very little. It was just a personal dislike, but I said to to bridge things over. And as you have so much, so many musical numbers, and I have no experience in that, and I met the American dance director, and we decide if that's acceptable. So they allowed that. So I shot all the numbers, and I used them Eastman color print on akva, and then we, later on, used completely akva, which I liked very much. I thought it had a gentleness softness was better in some respects, because the laboratory, being at a studio, and a man in charge a laboratory was American who knew a lot about color, especially the finesse of things, and we got on like a house on fire. I can't remember his name as a German name, and so there was quite an interesting experience to be on that one. But I seem to have a German French CO production should never happen, because there were only four Frenchmen there, but they're running the running whole show. And then Germans didn't like the French and vice versa. It was clash of personalities. Now I didn't want to get involved with politics, so I was very glad that the American director myself, we made all shot, all the musical numbers, which were quite number while they were carrying on storyboard. So that was another excursion. And this was also in what was it? Panavision? No, it was group, I think BECTU. Same time was very nice to do work in because they're very efficient. What is nice? The nice discipline on the floor. Everybody's waiting for you when you light the chief electrician just points, and the chap immediately switches on the points and without a word, hardly said, no shouting, then go this way, flooding, this way, spotting, then puts it. That's it. And, you know, it was so nice. Everything was so much quicker, you know. And
Speaker 2 34:34
sorry I missed that. Are you saying that specifically German or American? German? It
Unknown Speaker 34:39
was German
Speaker 2 34:42
studios, right? But, I mean, you think that kind of atmosphere or system was German rather than from that's a
Speaker 1 34:53
great discipline, because everyone is there to to to the job of meeting without any drama. Noel. Shouting, as in wherever we British students, lot of noise going on, a lot of private discussions, the boots up and up, and directors, keep quiet. Please. Goon. Goon, doing this, and it's it's such a racket drives you around the bed. I hate noise. I don't like shouting anyhow, my show, but I have to shout on the floor. I wouldn't like anybody shout at me. So why should I shout at somebody just because I have to raise my voice to get over the din. So it was all fresh. And you worked in various studios where everything was so peaceful that point of view and very efficient, no dramas. And very clean studio, nice restaurant across the road, everything was very civilized. When
Speaker 2 35:52
did the studios date from? Do you know from the Nazi era or before? Or were they built after the war?
Speaker 1 35:58
No, I think they were before the war. And then they made many improvements. See, they were always improving the stages. They were not enormous stage, but big enough for most filming. They had lamps there, which we didn't have. They had 20 K's, which is the biggest one, incandescent light. So if you want to use a very big inky source, so having a big arc source, they were the first country I've been to where they had 20k 10k was the largest we had in England, France and America, which they built themselves. So in many respects, it was a very civilized, pleasant studio, and where, you know, you could relax more when you're working. You didn't have to be on, you know, fighting things.
Speaker 2 36:56
You felt at home there, by the sound of that. So I just after that, then back to England. No to Ardmore, you're doing? Oh yes, Ardmore,
Speaker 1 37:06
oh yes. Now shake hands with devil. Was a United artist film, and the producers were Seltzer and glass, I think. And Michael Anderson is enormous director and tag James Cagney was our leading artist. John Maher, he was, that time, a good American actor. And Glynnis, Johns from England and various other outstanding Irish actors, you know so many of them, because we use many from the theater there the what's called, not Abby theater, brig gate, but brig gate, yes, and Dublin and all. It was great fun, because Cagney came from Cork and you know, being all about the rebellion and the black and tan, which didn't go down very well over here, but it became, turned out to be a very exciting firm, and it was so nice working for such a great artist as Cagney. He was great technicians and everything about him a little professional. And I liked the Irish little mad and, you know, but at the same time the life of people, they all work very hard. And
Unknown Speaker 38:25
art more is a new studio, more or less.
Speaker 1 38:30
And that time before we start shooting it, the booster said to me, now so far as crew is concerned, what do you think Erwin, I say, Well, why don't we train. We got three weeks before we start shooting. Pick out the most intelligent ones who suitable become electricians and carpenters, and then we only bring over certain key people from London. I mean, after Is there a new studio? Want to give them a chance to be thinking that. So here. Erwin, fine. So we trained good many of them before we start filming, how to use arcs and lamps and so on. We had classes which we my chief electrician was marvelous that he helped them. And also the art director was being Irish, Tom Morahan. He also liked the idea, and he also brought in many people you know to work, and built a set for him under our construction manager, came from London supervision, so it was quite a nice blend, having the Irish with the best, you know, we brought over, and it was Very successful film in America, unfortunately, didn't do very well over here, because the black and tan was not exactly they looked like Nazis, really.
Speaker 2 39:47
Oh, they were terrible people. Yes, terrible. So
Speaker 1 39:51
from that point of view, it was very sad, because we I had marvelous letters and telegrams from her. They would apparently Frank Sonata. So it was very impressed. And tag me sent me a special letter. See what great talent work and so on. And it was so nice to people who were important people to appreciate your work. And it was great fun.
Speaker 2 40:23
The next one seems to be with Robert Hamer school for scoundrel. Now,
Speaker 1 40:28
Robert Hamer, as you know, was one of the healing what it saw top directors, again, of a highly civilized to life a person. But he had one problem drinking. But he didn't drink during the production, except when we got to the very last few days where we were on location and he got little high minded. Were very easy shots, and the producer in America fired him. He proud him that was terribly upset about that for man who did so much Excellent work, because I thought they were director for a lovely director, really brilliant director. So it was very successful film, really sophisticated English comedy, which I think this country always stood out very highly. And you know, on the whole, the acting style is very good. And Robert Hames, I said, was charming, personally work with.
Speaker 2 41:45
I'll run down quickly some of the others, because the next one is the long, short NA tour with Leslie Norman as director,
Speaker 1 41:53
which that became rather unpleasant because that was a firm for Sir Michael Balkin. And the director was Norman Leslie Norman, who, as you know, had a very distinguished career kneeling. He was the editor there and became director. And Michael Balkan liked him very much. Had enormous respect for him. Now, amongst the actors, we happen to have Lancer Harvey, Richard Harris, Richard Todd and two of the other artists but Lance Harvey and Richard Harris were dead against lesser norm. For some reason they want to get him to remove from the picture. And I hate to see actors trying to use muscle power against a man who was doing an excellent job. Because if something was wrong with direction, sir, Michael Baucus, experience would have been enough to say right enough is enough to change it. And entirely maneuver everybody on their side. I refuse to join them on ethical grounds and also decent guards.
Unknown Speaker 43:11
There was no good reason that you knew
Speaker 1 43:15
just a person was nasty three Harwood, and I told him quite straight up. So far as I concerned, I think it's absolutely disgusting. So hope you won't see you again. Richard top didn't join in the injury, but Richard House, who I helped to get into the picture altogether. I shot his very first test at abbc, and I which I directed myself, and I got him a part with Victor skida on one film. Then when we made shake hands with devil, I recommended him to Michael Anderson, who gave him a small part in film. So when he came on this time as one of the so called stars, I just found apt to discuss with him. So it turned out to be a reasonably successful firm, but it was very unhappy firm, because I hate to see this going on as stronger tactics and dirty below the belt.
Unknown Speaker 44:16
Did Leslie Norman stay the course? He
Speaker 1 44:18
suffered, but what did they do to him? What sort of he looks so unhappy. We worked twice as hard to be and everybody rallied around around him and support him. But you can see, see at that time, Lance Harvey had great power more than Richard Harris because of Jimmy Wolf. Oh yes, he caught him nasty bit of work, unpleasant, yes. So yes, yes, absolutely, I work with him again later on, but it's I just like this sort of type of people. That's what I dislike about the film business as these people get away with it. If I had been a producer, I would have. By them. So the fire director Noel,
Speaker 2 45:02
I suppose if your lover is Jimmy Wolf, is a bit difficult to to fire him. Did wolf put up the money for that? Was it a Balkan picture?
Speaker 1 45:10
Yes, a Balkan production for Metro. Yeah. Balkan was the producer for museum. He sent me a very nice letter, one of how much demand work, and we shot having a studio.
Speaker 2 45:23
Which studio was it? ABP, this is, was it? Was it Ealing films?
Speaker 1 45:30
Still? No, it was eating film. At that time. It didn't have the evening studio.
Speaker 2 45:34
So I know, I know he'd left the studios. But was it an Ealing film, or was
Speaker 1 45:39
it for abpc? I think a BBC, there was some sort of combination, but mainly, BAM was the boss, and he decided,
Speaker 2 45:49
well, you went down the road, then to Metro for a matter of who, oh yes, on shop, anything? Well,
Speaker 1 45:57
that, again, was a light sort of type of story. We went to location, to Austria, and then we finished everything in a studio at Metro, which was quite fun. It was a nice sort of light story. And Thomas wasn't Terry. Thomas played one of the leading parts, and it was quite an amusing firm. There was nothing very dramatic working on that, except one or two people were little on the sloppy side. See the moment you have a director. Was too easy going. Don Chaffey was very nice. It Was it, was it Chaffee or sharp? No, Chaffee, you've got Okay, Don Chaffee. He was very charming person. And they people take liberties. You know, when people are nice, like that?
Speaker 2 46:55
Who was taking liberties? Cast or crew? Well, both
Speaker 1 46:59
also. Terry Thomas through he wait hard a lot were made to have a big drama out of everything. All unnecessary, very boring,
Speaker 2 47:10
right? Then back back to your home base. Then for the naked edge. Michael Anderson, again,
Speaker 1 47:16
yes, well, naked edge was the Gary Cooper was his last Of course, unfortunately, and Deborah Carr played a leading lady, and they both marvelous artists to work for. And we had very nice supporting cast. Was a thriller of some sort. And again, United Artists used the studios, you know, there was their picture, and same with Cagney's film was also a united artist, and we, there was nothing dramatic about we just shot nearly everything the studio to I don't think There were many locations in that
Speaker 2 48:00
was Cooper dying? Was Cooper dying?
Speaker 1 48:05
No, but you could tell His face looked terribly drawn and tired, and you knew tell that he was his. He had a very severe operation before the picture started, but it took half its stomach out and whatever. And he was very brave to take it on. And he didn't want to play the usual part. He wanted to play a more dramatic part. He looked very haggard times, mind you, fall apart. It suited him to look haggard. But it was a very interesting story written by Angela, some very well known American writer, and Michael Anderson, again directing it. We enjoyed making the film because we had many interesting setups. Love low key photography and and we just, you know, gave the film as much good presentation as possible. And again, double cars, you know, that love the artist to work with. Amazing. They were trying to get another artist was not available, and she didn't want to make another firm. She just finished one firm somewhere else. I mean, she normally got 200,000 pounds for her work. So the only way i.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Roy Fowler 0:00
The next one is with a director, I thought was a very sweet man, Michael Truman, oh yes, called go to blazes.
Speaker 1 0:08
That was Robert Morley. And quite number. I think Maggie Smith also appeared in that had a smallish part. He was another person from Ealing, and he used to be editor there, and I remember meeting very delightful person. It was a very light hearted story, nothing new, very out of the ordinary, but it's Michael,
Roy Fowler 0:34
though was a very civilized man. I'm sure you'll agree. Michael Truman was a very pleasant man. Oh, yes, very civilized. Not, not especially good director pot carriers with Peter Graham Scott, he came out of television, yes,
Speaker 1 0:50
that's right, he, again, was a jolly chap. I mean, he stayed, you know, breezy person was a prison story, which I hated, because so boring for me, visually was see those two firms you just mentioned that for me, were absolutely boring. And I Are you still
Roy Fowler 1:09
contracted to abpc? Are you back to being freelance now? No,
Speaker 1 1:13
I see Andrew Mitchell. I saw him some months ago. I haven't seen him since. I mean, he No,
Roy Fowler 1:19
I don't mean no. I mean, then at this particular time, when, when you're when you're making go to blazes and the pot carriers, you were still under contract. Yes, yes. Okay, well, the next one is a much more important picture. Sammy going south with McKendrick. Well, she had him work with
Speaker 1 1:40
Sir Michael Long Short, and at all, he had problems getting a director and a director he wanted to give a chance again. Was Sandy McKendree, who unfortunately had misford been taken off three films, and I heard through the gate fire he was awkward person to work with, so I declined beginning to work with him, because I don't want to work with difficult directors. We have personal problems, sir. Michael baukin said, Erwin, why don't you come and meet him? We have dinner together and see what you think. But during dinners. He was always a big mistake, because your Mallow wine is there. Everybody's very pleasant so on. Kind of Long Story Short. Okay, I decided to work because the script was a nice script, nice story. And also Sir Michael Balkan being at night, and Harold Mason was the producer for working for Sir Michael, now also part of Africa, which I always loved. I loved Africa, particularly because I had my life all over again. I would live in Africa, not in Europe, because it suits me best, not only climate. I like this sort of wildness. And the white community do have a very pleasant life. Most of them have and on the whole, mostly Africans in Africa are much nicer the ones you find outside Africa today. But you know, we won't discuss politics. So I went back to tenure, which I always liked, and I'm also Tanzania, which, again, had nice locations. So between those two territories, and also the leading artists, I always admired, Ebert Robertson, great artist. So we start in Africa. And typically, what I heard was so true. He couldn't make up his mind. We line up, and then we look through the camera, fine, rehearse it. Then suddenly we come up. I mean, it's all wrong here. So what's wrong? Sandy, what can we do to put it right? Always this location is on. I said, well, so I said you picked it. You were out here before me, and you said you found everything. I made a mistake. So I told boys to wrap up the equipment, and we traveled for a couple of miles to go see. Let's go over the other side of this embankment, because the river going through that and whole next bridge was miles away. So we came over the other side, and we started lining up again, rehearsed once more, and we just had enough time just to get a couple of shots in. Because when night comes and I forget, it goes with a bang, as you know. So the unit got fed up and was difficult to get the so in series of people, they see, the director can't make up his mind. Keep on doing unsteady things like that, and Hal Mason wasn't strong enough to do anything about it. I. It. I didn't want to complain, because it's not none of my business. I can only just say, Well, okay, you picked it. So during the whole making of was always difficulties, unnecessary, often very unnecessary difficulties. Fundamentally, he's a very nice person. He's just so unsure of himself, perhaps having taken three films where he was taken off the picture, and there's not nice thing to happen to anybody, especially when you're an important director, as he was. And I cut along, so sure we finish everything more sometimes, except that Edward G Robin happened to get a heart attack out there because he overused him unmercifully and over rehearsed him when he shouldn't have done so. We had to shoot around him, using it double and things like this, and we had to shoot extra plates. So when we came back to London, we went to Shepparton studios that time, and then we had to reconstruct having a
Roy Fowler 6:09
studio it hadn't been intended to do that process work.
Speaker 1 6:13
No, no, no see. We had to, I had to use my experience in blending things together. One I shot, I shot many parts of Africa outside Chaplain studios, just you across the road. There's a little landscape back down there, and I had to give it a so yellow tinge, you know, and color and so on. So it can make it match the African sort of sunlight, because, and it was a very difficult film, which
Roy Fowler 6:40
you did how with color gels on the lights
Speaker 1 6:45
exactly, because you see, the story was fine. The artists were fine. It was just Sandy's thing. They got away with it. The film turned out to be royal command performance film. I was again nominated for the Best photography on that film. And from at least, we had a reward. Despite it all, Edward G Robinson recovered. Was very lucky his because he was not a young man. Was there already in the 60s then and work in the heat. I mean, it's ridiculous. I used to say to Sandy many times, Sandy, why don't we put up an umbrella? Why should you black girl? And I said, Sandy, it's so bloody heart. I mean, it's he's not a youngster anymore. Well, he should have taken on the part. I mean, that sort of thing is, he should know. And I said, well,
Roy Fowler 7:40
and I didn't realize MC Kendrick treated people in that fashion. He
Speaker 1 7:44
was very, actually quite, had ruthless streak. And I thought myself, I won't want to work that type again. It's not worth it. Can't decide. It's always unsure. It's always makes it difficult to keep discipline is he
Roy Fowler 8:01
was one of the most troubled careers I imagine there's ever been, because he was taken off so many films
Speaker 1 8:07
always been, didn't Yes, actually, I don't think he's since then, you know, I
Roy Fowler 8:12
think after that came the sweet smell of success. Wasn't that glass? Which one the sweet smell of success? Oh yes,
Unknown Speaker 8:20
that came.
Roy Fowler 8:21
Was that before then, this must be the last one. Oh yes,
Speaker 1 8:26
that was a definitely last one. I can't remember. I know he lined up something else, and he got in touch with me. And I was very busy that time. I was glad not to be involved.
Roy Fowler 8:39
Well, you recovered by doing operation crossbow. Then
Speaker 1 8:43
that again, was great fun, because Carlo Pont was a producer, was MGM, which I liked enormously, because most of the extend and people worked there at the finish, from the start, nice then with a director who I like, Michael Anderson, where George perd and many distinguished cast, British cast, working with him and silver Loren. And it was a very exciting story. And we had marvelous cooperation from a crew. And again, we, you know, when you have when all the elements fused nicely, you can't lose it. Was a great success. The film, normal success. And again, coward Ponte only we saw four times, you know, making a film. They came for lunch, and that's all. He never interfered, and he had great faith and the people who worked on the studio, and there was a great feeling on from a top management right down to everybody floor. They do anything for the production, anything.
Roy Fowler 9:48
How was Mrs. Ponte to work with? How was Mrs. Ponte to work with?
Speaker 1 9:54
Well, she, I found her very professional. Because you. She always knew her lines. She was a charming person. She never lost the temper. She was always ready on the set half past eight to all her makeup, finish everything. She arrived at five or six in the morning. Everything being done beforehand. When she finished working, she lived near the studio. She hired a little bungalow, or something like that, and she apparently studied her lines, and she was already in bed at half past eight in the evening, having a meal there, going to the next day's work. Barely ever went out. Noel had any social life. Mind you have part with film in 10 days. For that, you got a million dollars in those days. Was quite enormous, because the budget film was 3 million. Oh, four, I forget now, and it stayed in the family. Yes, that's right. See Carlo. They call him the Bandito in Italy, but I liked him very much. He's very civilized person. He let people get on with things,
Roy Fowler 11:09
but they are licensed crooks. Oh yes, De Laurentiis was yet another.
Speaker 1 11:14
But then again, they have also created a lot of opportunities for other people to express their talents. They're not, though, but
Roy Fowler 11:23
they never, they never made very good pictures. None of them. They were all pot boilers. They might have been expensive pot boilers, but I no good or interesting films came out of it. By and large, I'm curious about Lauren, though, did did you approach lighting her in any
Speaker 1 11:43
like very much, because I always have a very soft filler light, which I have very low, which not only softens the shadow area, but it catches the eyes and gets a glint in the eyes and life In the eyes. Now this was Panavision again, and she was so delighted that her eyes normally were very, quite darkish. So had a life, and all expressions suddenly came out. See Erwin. What are you doing? I see this little low basher. They had a span on that you see to just softness, so it just floated into face and she again, was delight for George. Papa was a tough cookie because he had had he didn't like Metro go with me because he didn't pay them well enough. And it was always this love hate relationship.
Roy Fowler 12:39
You say it was a Panavision picture? What do you mean by a Panavision picture? Since
Speaker 1 12:45
then, cinema scope was superseded by panel vision, which was considered but it is process only super to certain extent,
Speaker 2 12:54
but better lens. Yes.
Speaker 1 12:57
Now shot, many of the special effects workers were besides the film itself. And there were some little flyings which I also shot, because I always like keep my hand in with some shots. Do we mean, which we shot on location, of course. And again, it was a very pleasant film, because having worked with Michael Anderson, we had such a great rapport. And I This may sound terrible, conceived, but never once lost the battle together, ever undefeated. Made it this way. And it's not just blank is true. If we had a small budget film, they always were well made, at least me successful and respected by people, and we had many offers together.
Roy Fowler 13:49
The next film is the sounds of Kalahari with SI Enfield, this director and size, the sort of he never made it. He good,
Speaker 1 14:01
he I know he was in action very but a very unpleasant type. He liked playing table tennis on location. He spent most time playing but he George pep hard was cast to play the leading part, and he walked out the first time he's ever walked out on the firm, which was very embarrassed because I didn't want to work on the film The first place I heard so much about being unpleasant. Time were
Roy Fowler 14:29
you assigned to No, I say, Were you assigned to it? No, I was
Speaker 1 14:35
only because Josh pepper insisted I should photograph. I see, I didn't want to work photograph. I turned it down because, as I said, I don't like to work with unpleasant people, especially in Africa. So come long story short, I spoke to a science producer who was the actor in the picture too. He died. Some years ago, anyhow, when we were on location, George per part of the first week left, and he just said to me, couldn't work with a man. He's insensitive, and he wasn't going to have his reputation when he was so sorry they let me down like this, because he knew I didn't want to work on a film there was left. He left for America, and they were all going to sue him, and they all sue each other. So Stuart whippin took his was replaced. Doesn't take long to get a new replacement flown out, because so many actors in the Hollywood were not always working, as you know, and I didn't like working on film, because they were called to animals, to her times, and which I hate to say, and unnecessary. Stanley Baker was the actor who played the leading part, besides Stuart Whitman, and we had a good British car, Susana York, and for what she were, she played in smallish park, but I didn't like it. We had marvelous location in Namibia and South Africa. We filmed,
Roy Fowler 16:17
you're somewhat of an expert on shooting in Africa
Speaker 1 16:20
by this time? Oh, yes. I mean, I've been on so many over last 3040, years. I've been out there many times. I just some. I love Africa.
Roy Fowler 16:28
I'll ask you later about Africa. We'll complete the List of films first, and then we'll talk about, yes, of course, those general things. So really, nothing much to say about Cy Enfield, except never again. No, never
Speaker 1 16:40
again, because we went back to shepherd and Stewart to finish the film, and I was very glad when I said goodbye. And I almost said, Never again.
Roy Fowler 16:51
And he had the makings of a good director, but his personality, I think, prevented it, and he just doesn't get the work
Speaker 1 16:59
see when you go on location and have a tough conditions to face up, you have to be a great human being, because so many people rely on your yourself and to treat people often times where he did arrogant manner. It's unnecessary,
Roy Fowler 17:19
unacceptable, right? I think they're carrying a lot of problems around with them, but nevertheless, who cares?
Speaker 2 17:33
We're back to people like, you know, the actor we were talking about a moment ago in the long
Speaker 1 17:40
short, I mean George Harvey. I mean abused. I work with Lawrence Harvey later on, when I, when I took over? Will I tell you later comes in, later, right?
Roy Fowler 17:53
Well, next one, Quill, a memorandum that was
Speaker 1 18:00
one of the now, that was, that was Ivan Fox, was producer, right? Michael Anderson, Director, be filmed in Berlin, yes, which I was lovely to work. And we had mostly British coup. And we use also some from the, from the German student, not over because offers on the on the eastern side. And we had marbles Corporation and very, very good team. We had George Siegler, who was a very brilliant actor, and Sir Alec Guinness, who we know, a wonderful artist, great artist, and Santa burger from Austria. And it was an excellent script by Harold penter, who I think is one of the greatest writers here. I have enormous regard for him. Even the actors used to love this dialog. I never heard artists praising a writer as they did. What lovely, beautiful lines to speak.
Roy Fowler 19:03
Yes, I agree with you, save with the proviso that a Pinter script needs superb actors. Yeah, very good director, because otherwise it doesn't work. That's That's my feeling true,
Speaker 1 19:16
but the same time it's for once, all everything Gerald together, it's special. I mean, George schieger loved it, and they all liked him. So Alex Guinness used to say, any artist could play his part. Why'd you spend 100,000 pounds on him just for 10 days? Whatever it was, Mike Allen said, because there's only one, Alex, and that's why we want you. Never mind 100,000 you're worth more, as we're concerned. Did
Roy Fowler 19:40
you have Pinter with the unit? He came
Speaker 1 19:42
only in the beginning when we looked for locations and I made a suggestion to him and a script. You know, many writers are not aware how often the backgrounds can be enhancing the scenes more. And there's one sequence where the spies meet for the first time. And in his script, you had an empowered house. They're all standing together there the parrots corner, shrieking and all that. I thought it's ridiculous. There were about three or four pages of dialog all standing static against the parrots background. So Michael Allison asked, before we start filming, to look at old case myself, make any extra selections and show it to him when he come came over a week later, because he was busy in London casting. So I thought myself, instead of using, why not use the old Olympic Stadium? Why can't the spies meet up in that big, vast, empty stadium. And when one person arrives, he looks around, he sees one person 100 years away, sitting there. See we go up to him, and he played a scene with a stadium right behind us and the background. He had ways to us unobtrusive being shown around were Hitler used to hold the rallies, things like that. So naturally, the difference between parrot house and having a stadium. So when we showed it out of catas to Pinter, when he came in McGinnis, and I said, Well, I hope, forgive me, this is an alternative. What do you think about it? Oh, it's marvelous. If you can sure mine was, it's so altogether. You see, we found locations, and I knowing Michael Anderson, happened, you had the confidence the swimming baths I found, which were like old Roman swimming baths, which were part of the stories, were of the interiors and many exteriors we we found it was a very nice film to work on, again, very successful film, highly rated everywhere. Yes, and which I enjoyed?
Roy Fowler 21:55
Well, they do come along once in a while. The enjoyable pictures next under eye of the devil was J Lee Thompson, first time you worked with him, I think, yes,
Speaker 1 22:03
firstly, we known each other at Ulster when, when I worked there, as you know, he was one of the other director besides Michael Anderson, great life at that time, a very happy drinker, but a Love Of a person, highly intelligent. And originally Michael Ernst were the director, and he had to withdraw from the film because, I think he had to go for some minor operation. He was feeling very low. So Lee took over, and we started the film in France. Went to near Bordeaux in the Bordeaux area, which loved locations, and we then had Tim Novak playing opposite David Nippon and based other very good English artists. We
Unknown Speaker 23:02
filmed everything in in France. Came Back to Studio, we nearly finished all in chairs where she was in.
Speaker 1 23:13
She had a qual, personal qual, but with the producer. His name is famous name. Oh, gosh, I think about his name minute, and they were actually lovers before. For that actually were still lovers together. They quarreled quite a lot, and he apparently dropped her for somebody else. And suddenly, one weekend, we heard she had a riding accident. She fell off a horse somewhere, and she couldn't contain the picture, so she got Doctor certificates under how she managed to do it. I think she exaggerated. She wanted to pay him back. Martin ranso Half. She want to pay him back. So he cut long story short, the insurance company had to pay for us to go back to France this time, de car took over, and we shot everything all together from the start, came back and finished. The first of my life. I shot the same film twice. What was rather petty. The first version I shot was better the second version, there's something. Whenever you repeat something, it's never the same. You knew what you did do, but somehow it's, it doesn't quite
Roy Fowler 24:43
come to life. Yes, I know what you mean. I've done television. They're never the same. No, it is
Unknown Speaker 24:51
not good ones.
Roy Fowler 24:54
So it again, reasonably. I
Speaker 1 24:59
love what. With Jamie Thompson, delightful person did like
Roy Fowler 25:07
Jim O'Connor next on valley of guangy, anything. Oh, that
Speaker 1 25:11
was that was with a person who works producer and a director to work not exactly what I called Top drawer. They're just bashers, you know. And it was a sort of story which had prehistoric monsters, where Harry, Harryhausen made his monsters, and all his addictive sins. I know they made money. Was very successful for him, but I didn't like working on that, because
Speaker 2 25:44
you didn't shoot the model work. Did you? No, no, I
Speaker 1 25:48
just was glad to get it off as quick as I could. I mean, I was very well paid for it. It was worth my wife, her man, she would accept it. Well, Charles near was a producer. Yes, he's been nice, big, smart ale chap and full of big talk. You know, typical, you know, a strange sort
Roy Fowler 26:08
of film for you to do, you it was just work. Yes, that's exactly Okay. Well, we come to a big E next game, Michael Anderson, and you work with him more than any other director. Yes, did you not choose of the fisherman? Yes, Chini citta,
Speaker 1 26:24
yeah, that was Mars to work on, because it's a story which I loved. And also, anti quin played the leading part. And as you know, he's a great actor. And also I love Rome, because there's always have made many friends there, and I know they're crazy, but they're lovable people that work hard. They're very artistic. And the studio maybe is a little old fashioned, but it's a nice studio. It's a great atmosphere. And the crew was mostly Italian. We had key people from London. My operator came with me. I promoted as Tony white. Used to be my camera assistant, and then I promoted him before on many other firms. And then the editor was from London. The continuity, everybody else, except there were four people from London. The rest were all Italian and American. And it was marvelous from the beyond, because it was very challenging. And there's one sequence particularly, which was a very great challenge, how to cope with the whole shots were required when the coronation of the pope in his stories, you probably remember, he was a Russian Pope, Russian car Again, to to Rome, became a pope you have now Polish Pope. It's a lot of funny. 10 years later, history sort of rewrote itself. The cast as it was from England, which viewed to Seeker played one of the parts as well. So we had a very distinguished cast. But when it came to that particular sequence and MGM thought design department, we shoot everything in the special effects in the studio. So I said, Well, this is more or less would be hurting the film, because so much we couldn't get and achieve the atmosphere of all the people arriving before the coronation starts. But the whole samarqan Squares fills up during the day for all the different master zones, and it so has an atmosphere 250,000 people. How can you do all that great part? Close up, yes. What about all the other shots? So the producer was George England, American, said to me, and and Michael Allison, what do you think is the answer? Say, Well, it's a gamble. I worked it all out. If we get 15 cameras, I know it's going to shake the budget for one day shooting, but we need them here three or four days beforehand. If we show all the camera, we need so many more camera operators and assists and so on. And from Samus, if they can supply all that that time, if you give enough warning, I'm sure we can do it anyhow. They're great for this. So I laid out everything showed Michael Anderson the ideas that he thought it was worth a gamble. I had about 10 cameras in different positions, and we worked out exactly all the different lens changes that had been done, and I had four. I hand held cameras, which where they moved around, and had Italian operators who could speak obviously a language and get themselves in behind the Pope, eaten, to get shots over his over his shoulder, things like that. But hand had arrow flexes. They were hidden underneath his because they were not allowed to be near the Powell, but we, like in Italy, if you live enough, you know everything can be done. And it was a was a harrowing day. It started to rain in the morning. I thought it's fit, so I said, Never mind. The umber is up. Let's shoot everything. It's weird, but the sun comes out later. It's fine. It's nice transition. That's how life is, not always in sunshine. Hello. So short. We shot 50,000 feet in that one day, 50,000 and out of that, we got the one hour screen time and made the whole film. And really I'm not trying to show off to you saying this, it paid dividends. I know on paper, it costs a lot of money, but we reduced the special effects to a minimum. We built bits and a studio of where the Pope, our Pope, faces the oath and gives, delivers his speeches, so on under our control. So Anthony Quinn and these other artists who own near him, and the balcony that was on the stage, and all the other points of view were the little shots. And I don't know if you ever saw the film, there was tremendous production value because of something you could never build, and as 250,000 people all turn up, and the emotional effect and the whole thing is something so special. You know, it's, I'm sure you're right. Well, again, I was considered one of the top firms of the year, I was nominated again for the firm for best photography, and it was very highly regarded. Then after when I finished the film, when I came back to London, having worked with Metro so many times, it had a call from Terence Young. He was going to finish off Marling, and he was going to Bucharest. Would I come and join him? And we had Omar Sharif as a leading artist. And having known chance for many years, I thought, Well, that should be quite fun to my Artemis, when we write the Bucha rest, he was very historic to the Romanians, who were unaccustomed to English. Started working, and they were all only made very small little firms. But anyhow, we managed to get all the shots in. And I found Omar Sharif rather elegant, so and so, because when I introduced myself and said, I just completed with your old friend Anthony Quinn choose Fishman Rome that bum. I said, How can you call him a bum? Ears, a bum must be king. I see, I think he's a great actor. Another myself, what a unpleasant person. Then we had also Lawrence Harvey on this film. Another arrogance, all your favorites. So I thought, Christ, here was. I didn't realize that all those mates all get together. But yeah, we shot everything on schedule, and we completed Marling and MGM are happy that they got the firm in a bag.
Roy Fowler 33:49
How much of it is yours in the final cut? Would you say? Well, I think
Speaker 1 33:52
one certain pitch was my work on that. And the French cow man, I think he had a disagreement with Terence over something, and they fell out over. So it's, I don't know all the ins and outs. It's see talents in those days could have been, they can be very excitable and they nervous.
Roy Fowler 34:14
Yes, he had a lot of money coming in then, didn't he? Oh, yes.
Speaker 1 34:19
I mean, he was very successful at time. He made many bad decisions against himself. He took on things which he shouldn't have done, and he had so many hangers on around him, all his Stooges, which was stupid, but there you are. See, Michael Anderson will foster peers as a director. I think, yes, I think that's true. This behavior, too, was always outstanding. Oh,
Roy Fowler 34:43
and you've got here. David Ben Gurion, locations in Israel. It was at a television in 1970 it says on the list. David Ben Gurion,
Speaker 1 34:54
oh, yes, I tell you something happened. Which father when I came back. After, I had a call from forget now somebody who I know for many years, and I see there's a film going in Israel called Ben Goon, the story of who was the creator of present day Israel. And it sound is the man called Davis was a director. Was a documentary director. Would I care to go, to go into Jerusalem and many other interesting parts of Israel and Ben Goon, to go into Ben goons House, who lives somewhere in the desert, somewhere? So I thought that might be quite fun, because I always was interested in Jerusalem, to me, looks the most beautiful place of all places. And also, as was not going to be longer than four or five weeks, because I had to be back in London to prepare some my own projects, which I've been working on for a long time. So that turned out to be quite fun. I mean, it was a little bit historical, sometimes on location, but generally they all worked. They were together, and it was quite fun. And I think that Jerusalem itself is fascinating place, absolutely marvelous.
Speaker 2 36:24
You obviously enjoy going to new places and
Speaker 1 36:28
Ben Goon, when you met him, such a little guy. Do you think that he was the one who built up the whole country? Amazing, very, very nice, unobtrusive person. Would never believe this man had done so much for Israel
Roy Fowler 36:44
they could do within now, I think now that it does that end the the List of films that you've the features that you photograph, yes,
Speaker 1 36:54
because see well after that, I have for a long time wanted to make my own productions, and I had many ideas, for instance, one called the Lost City, which I showed to Alistair McLean, thanks to Robert Clark when he read my treatment, because I've been to South America since to work for Marty ranso, off some some background shots, and also shooting some tests for him in Buenos Aires. On my way back, I passed over matter go so on the way to Peru and then coming back that way. So I thought, this is Marvel. This is the last word. So when I got to Lima, I said going straight back to London. I thought I'd stop here. I had time and Goon up to Machu Picchu, to cut long story short, I discovered that many of the Nazis were escaped after war, and we had on private answer, which I forgot to tell you, on our way to to Brazil, you have some nurses, yes. And when Peter used to have, we had a scene with some Germans, he said to to the art through the assistant director, who Italian, let's get some little Germans for this. So as I fix it for you, Peter, don't worry. Next day, about 10 Nazis arrived, and naturally were all in normal clothes. And I just talked to him, I said, Yes, they were on their way to South America. They got tired of Europe. Europe is finished. Germany is finished, and whatever it is. So they appeared in that so when I coming back now to my trip to South America, I remembered what they said. I said, Why not the Germans, which is true, we're on the parvana River. And I discovered that because having been connected with intelligence, but didn't take me long to trace things down, you can always get information through various ways. And it's actually a true story that Martin Bormann did escape when I went on a recce round there and I inquired, they told me I missed him just by a week. He was living in Chile, across the border, and he came over the piranha River, and as embankment, about 40 settlements of all Germans who escaped via submarines and other ways of means, who went to the Argentine then eventually settled on there and other parts. So I wrote out a story on my way back, I had this time looked at this. I said, bring it in German angle, make it a denture. Story cut long so short. I had a 30 page treatment. When I got back, I had it typed out. I showed Robert Clark. I said I would like to produce this film or direct it. I. Can you help me? So he said, Well, who do you want to write the story? I said, Well, the idea of persons as Alistair McLean, at that time, he was made guns of Navajo, and he was a very, very big, you know, writer. So he got on the telephone in my presence, put his courtroom to Switzerland. I have personally he said nice things about me. I just read his treatment. It's we think it's hazard, great possibilities. Would you care to read it? And if you read it and you like it, we'll try and work out some arrangement. He read it, he telephoned me. I met him in Switzerland, and he said he couldn't write within years time, and if I could wait that time,
Speaker 2 40:51
that'd be fine as a novel or as a screen story. He would write
Speaker 1 40:54
it first as a screen story. I made a mistake. I should have asked him to write a novel first, but I thought, why not? Maybe I get a good script out of him, because the first script was not very good, but it always needed redoing. So it took me many years to get that right. The same time, I also had an idea of making the story of Anna Powell over always been interested in ballet, and to me, her story it was tremendous. So I got in touch with the Russians here. Had nobody to introduce me to anybody, and they contact Moscow. And I said, would very much like to come over. First of all, as soon as they arranged my treatment, which I sent on to them. I wrote also under pavlova treatment. They thought very interesting. Could I come and meet them? So I went to Moscow, signed an agreement with them. They were very impressed, very nice individuals. They said, normally they only sign with big companies, but they checked up my background. They trust me. They think it's a great idea. So I, too now have to get, obviously, now a script writer and so on, to develop it further. It would take me a long time to explain to you everything. So that was another story which I was involved in for many, many years, and very dear to my heart, because it's to me, the story of my life, which I never got wrong to because I was cheated by people I thought of my friend Michael Powell, you see, because originally they wanted to have an American director, when I managed to get Paramount interested, when I mentioned Michael Powell de monteneux. So I said, the American director may not, from a Russian point of view, be acceptable. So they say, well, we don't care, as far as Michael Powell is concerned, forget it. So I said, All right, forget it. Then I stuck with him. And quite long story short, he introduced me to a Greek court Cypriot called friction Constantine. He said he had all the money, and they deceived me. They cheated me. I signed agreements with them, and they really took everything away from me. And I reported this to Alan supper anyway, we didn't win the battle at all. They just carried on finish the film. Now, someone said, terrible when you out of friendship and decency, you try to help people. Because Michael Powell that time was down an hour. He even helped him to pay rep pay his fare back to to Gloucester, where he had had his place in the country, should deceive me and double cost me. And I signed all agreement. The Russians, they couldn't understand it. And, you know, I was out, but Noel, because I'm a very bad businessman, so I lost that altogether. This is one of the reasons I stopped putting up, because I wanted so much to make Anna Powell over a number of people I contacted, and I could have had backing from Powell Mark definitely, because David nib Jr was then in charge. Liked it very much, and Locke was a great idea. And many people in this country, all have been was in touch with all the great dancers, Robert Helpman, who I worked with on quill a memorandum, who loved the idea. And you know, it is the Russians were all on my side to treat me beautifully. I can't tell you how marvelous they were, the very emotional people, very decent to me. They were marvelous. Consider I'm not, don't belong to the party. They still respect you if you, if your person, they they like. They trusted me, so I lost that. And then, besides that, I was also working on Eliza Lynch, which I'm still working on today, which is another South American subject. And. Very big subject. And then my fourth subject, which I'm still working on right now. It's called Uganda queen. It's the building of the Robbie from Mombasa to Lake Victoria. And the whole story was built by British, Indian German opposition. Fantastic story. It's a great credit to this country. Makes you feel proud of people in a past. Only 100 years ago, helped to develop many parts of Africa. Was British enterprise, not expectation, no bullying. They had Indian labor to have to build a road because the Africans in that time were unsuitable to carry out all the work. So that's the story I'm pursuing at the present time. And in between, I worked on another story, which is called Las bag of Bundes, a settlement to it. It's a charming story. It all takes place in one day, but a boy and who wants a dog. And is a delightful story, and I present it to one or two people and see what luck I have. So I've been involved with many subjects, and naturally, the Alice McLean story has just been finished, be completed in Africa by cannon. See, Cannon were the only people who were prepared to back it. And, you know, found eventually the money. I mean, they were difficult people to deal with, but I always had to chase and be paid. But they paid me eventually. I mean, I would say it for them, and Goon was very nice for us. I was concerned. I explained to him a story. I had one meeting with him, and I said this McLean story. I said the script needs we know that, but there's no problem and no location so on. Okay, let's have a draw of agreement just just like that. But I had to wait a few years, because meantime, he got involved with so many bad films, serious trouble, extraordinary, and there it's a petty really, of course, if his enterprise had been if they made good films, which he didn't do, cheap Jack firms, yes, that was his undoing. JD Thompson worked for him on many firms.
Roy Fowler 47:22
Who it is, they don't know good show. No, they're not. They have no idea. They can't read a script. Hopeless challenge. Just street traders, I think really is what they are. We're almost at the end of this side of the tape, I think probably what we can do is spend the next half of the cassette talking about general things, right? We've been at it now for over three hours. Shall we take a break and have a cup of coffee?
Speaker 1 47:55
No, no, I'm fine. I've had a you know. Well, okay, I.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Speaker 1 0:02
This is the 14th side Erwin. The story of Anna Pavlova, in a way, is a reflection of all that's bad and hideous about this business, the way in which people, in which there are so many crooks operating, it seems, Frick's Constantine, I think, probably is known to sail fairly close to the legal wind. It's a bit distressing to hear about Michael Powell that he would well,
Speaker 2 0:28
I didn't realize either, because he was a director of Frick, just constantly company when I mentioned the first time, I would never have gone with that man right away, but Michael Powell insists they see he was a director company. You
Unknown Speaker 0:46
brought Michael into it? Yes, yeah. And
Speaker 2 0:49
when we couldn't get the finance because Michael Powers name, unfortunately, was taboo so far as all the major companies concerned.
Speaker 1 0:58
Do you know why they were so against him? Did they just say no, or did they give a reason? Well,
Speaker 2 1:03
first of all, to a reason. They said he'd been away for directing for too long. They didn't like his last few films he made, which were very bad. The moment he separated from Pressburger, he thought Pressburger was this sort of heart and brains of the outfit, and without him, he didn't produce one or direct one good firm, it's true. And even the rank organization couldn't show his Australian firms and whatever he made that time.
Unknown Speaker 1:39
But being Then, why did you,
Speaker 2 1:41
of course, I sent a mental reason. Yes, because I remember when this film came up. I forget now we met in town. Just by sheer accident, I said, Mickey, I'm working at an idea which is going to make CO production between Russia ourselves. I've been to Moscow. I have that backing. I already have a script which needs some further work on that. Can't we get to get on this? Erwin, I say, Well, I think it's your cup of tea, really. Mickey, I give you what I've written, what I got written so far to look at. And they think, tell me what you think, but I can't guarantee anything at this stage, because, you know, I'm trying to get a thing set up. As you know, it takes time, and anyhow, you never stop holding me. He said, Oh, it's marvelous. So I say I might get some American private finance. I was introduced a man called Bill nail, and it was a big American entrepreneur. He was not connected with film business, but he loved the idea of making co production of Russians, and he also knew personally some of the very big stars, like Joan colford, who was married to Mr. Pepsi Cola who built a factory in Moscow in Russia everywhere. And he said, That's a great idea. Erwin, I spoke to her the other day, and she remembers you. You never worked together, but she spoke very highly of you. And they might be able to add some more finance from this end, but we have to get a good script and good good director, so I recommend Michael Powell to say, well, we prefer to have somebody else. Why don't you think of stones? I can't remember. I said, Well, I know Powell I worked with before. I think we get the finance. We can do something, because the Russians will give us unlimited support. I can tell you this right now. They love the story has everything in there, but the shins and so on. What you have the whole thing mapped out. I've been there, seen locations, the studios, Muslims, studios, everybody's on our side. All I need is your backing. $3 million would take care of our side. The rest the Russians would give us open check. And long story short, he didn't like the idea of Michael Powell. He met him. He's always very unpleasant person, but he still sent us to Moscow, paid us to work out a script.
Unknown Speaker 4:23
Did you have any thought of bringing Emerick in on it? Well,
Speaker 2 4:25
he I wanted Emerick to be joined in. But Mickey said, No, really, no. He said, Oh, he's too old now, and he's not feeling too good. And I see it all his business. I say, I'm sorry to hear that, because I thought after red shoes and all that, he would be ideal to to be your partner. And I mean, personally, I think we can sell him to to emergence. And I refused that. So eventually, when I left him there and came back weeks later, he came back to London with a terrible script, absolutely unusual. Well that he'd written, yeah, so I said to Michael, it's everybody seemed to don't like it. I personally, I think you missed out on many things. You know, why did you stick to one I gave you and just gave it a few. Oh, what a shame. I'm so disappointed. So I've telephoned the magazine. I said, Do you mind if we start again? I know it's not right. Can we do the second time? We haven't got much money? I said, well, as long as you pay for the expenses. I know Mickey is so keen to do this means a lot to me also, as you know, so they paid for us to go to Moscow the second time to write a better screenplay. We came back with a very much better screenplay, but needed short like every new script you know, Harry Who has written this public life story so enormous, as you know, but who wrote
Speaker 1 6:05
this particular second draft? Was it Mickey Powell again?
Speaker 2 6:08
But I helped him destroy it. I was there all the time, and you wrote it in Moscow all together. We had a suite of rooms in in the what's name Hotel. They're very nice, and we saw the occasion of the Russians, who were very helpful and delightful people and and now we came back and the Americans withdrew their finance because they said they checked up on Michael Powell, if he's my choice, then I take on a bow house. So I said, Well, I can't stop you, because I feel this story needs somebody who can handle big production. I know you can do it. Erwin, that's your great pity. We're very sorry for you because you work so hard and you deserve better luck. Goodbye. So I told Powell that we lost Lenin. And he said, Oh, he's a bloody coke. And all I see, maybe a Coke, but just saying, we lost him. So don't worry, I got somebody. I introduced you to frixus Constantine. So I met him. I did. Wasn't impressed with him. He said, I can get you the money. Erwin, don't worry. Let's draw up a contract. I said, Well, don't draw up a contract till we know we have the money. Oh, yes, no problem. So he got a fake letter from his bank manager to say that they are very interested in other Powell over and they, I'm sure they can find. The finance all. It was all range. I discovered it later on. See our strength of letter Michael Powell guaranteeing to me personally, I signed an agreement, but brought Christmas Constantine into it as a producer, executive producer, and I was going to be the producer, and Michael Powell is going to be the director, so it fixes constable. What about arrange in our meeting in Moscow? So we get to think now, okay, there's no problem, as long as you have the money. Yes, it's fine. Don't buy it won't be there. Mickey Powell, oh, don't buy Erwin. He's he knows what he's doing. So I phoned Moscow, say Bucha, by meeting all the people, I was going to bring completion gown tours as well with us, so they can see my serious business. And a man who's going to be exact, the producer, has all the finance for us. And you know, we know the script needs readjust. We do this together. Whatever you feel is too not the right. I'm sure we can find the answer to that. So off we took eight or nine of us with solicitors and everything else, to Moscow, introduced very big business, laid on and Constantine company was now taken over the whole project, which I agreed to stupidly, because I tossed Michael Powell that was all drawn up properly, supposed to be, not properly when we came back to London. Now, see we're worth the money. We haven't got it yet, but you told me you had the money. I said, Will you let me know when you have the money? If not, then I go to go on my own again. I mean, that is dusting, take it all the way to Russia. And I dare tell the Russians that there was a fake meeting. It was all lies, and I was all very angry at Michael Powell, too. I thought, well, to let me down like this, in view of fact, what I've been through and got him twice to Moscow, you know? And now I introduced them. Now, what I didn't know that behind my back, they were constant, tough with Moscow. And. I tell them all sorts of stories. The reason things had been going about, I'm being difficult and this and that, telling lies. They didn't believe most of it, but somehow, I suddenly found that they didn't bother to contact me so much as they used to ring me up and being very friendly. So they kind of, long story short, I most gave it up. Then suddenly, I picked up the press, and I found out that they were going to start the film, that Powell is going to be on that friction, constant COVID English producer. So I raised hell about that. So he said, the Russians refused to work with you. You're too temperamental. I said, I didn't I be temperamental. Russian didn't have one showdown at all on a friendly terms. But Mickey was always completely, always away from the office, always in the country somewhere, doing something and, you know, always something else going on now, I got through to Michael Powell, wrote him a letter, told him I would take action unless I was compensated. So I didn't want to be associated with him. Anyhow, after what has happened under no circumstances and no more. But I want to carry on with Constantin. I think he said Cook, and in a nutshell, they made a film, and power was supposed to be supervising director. I knew was to be a disaster. Whatever happens he he just hasn't got it anymore. And without the help of other people, you know, he has a shadow. He just a shadow floating around. He just lives on. The reputation built up, I know, at times so the work he did. But other people were there. Other people made him Jack card have helped him. Alfred younger helped many other, hein Heckard, many other very clever people. So I report that to act. And they went on and on and on. Then they got wind that there's going to be a court case, so they conveniently let the company go into liquidation or a bankruptcy to take them off the hook, you see, so I had a letter from the HD solicitor was named, stating that we have no chance of winning the case because they now in liquidation. Who owns the had the film been shot at that point? Had the film been shot? Oh, yes, yes. Finished it. Yes, yeah. Who owns that now, the Russians, but also Constantine in power being a director. Mind you, they were such a bad film. It only had four small showings in some of the suburban cinemas. It had one night premier at the Dominion theater. Then he went to Marble Arch for two or three weeks. Didn't do very well because I didn't see the film, but I heard how was me, and I'm not surprised. And you know, if I had been connected with, I can assure you, would have been a wonderful firm, because I not only loved this story, I knew it so well, and I could have heard so much and been, you know, part of it, because you know something which you believe in, but what hurt me more, I can never get over it, something I loved so much. I mean, cheated by friends. Yes, I don't mind being cheated by somebody Constantine, someone
Unknown Speaker 13:56
you trust.
Speaker 2 14:00
Never had an open my mouth and said it was a condition. What are the detectives the market made? If I were to say, Okay, if you want another director, you tell me who you want, and I try and get it for you. I didn't you see, and that's the truth. Very distressing evidence for this evidence of all it, I have even letters from Michael power. Admire what I've done that thanks to me, this and this and that and all that.
Speaker 1 14:31
Well, I'd make sure at a certain point when they're deposited in the archive at the BFI. So the truth is, your
Speaker 2 14:40
to get a chance to order leader, because it's not only sad, but just sheer evil.
Speaker 1 14:48
It does represent, unfortunately, a side of the commercial film industry where there are great many borderline characters operating to. Be untrustworthy. But, you know, it's very distressing when it when it happens. Joel, they
Speaker 2 15:05
told me, I know Alice was very nice to me, I will say. But he was also politically I know he was torn between two things. As you know, he has great feeling towards the Russians. And I don't believe,
Speaker 1 15:20
I wouldn't necessarily believe that. No, I would be very distressed if Alan Sapa, in any way, were influenced in
Speaker 2 15:28
children in England. And there was a danger that I could abandon I could have easily banned them. Yeah, the Daily Express filled me up many papers. They heard about this. They wanted my story. I refuse to give it to them.
Speaker 1 15:45
It seems to me, your own lawyers, at some stage, were very remiss, permitting you to sign agreements that were to your disadvantage.
Speaker 2 15:52
Well, you know, many lawyers are not that just but
Speaker 1 15:56
most picture lawyers usually are. Well, I don't know who you use? Well, I'll
Speaker 2 16:01
tell you one thing, most lawyers I've ever heard, they charge me 1000s of pounds of fees, and I was never really protected. Even the biggest ones, I won't mention it, the biggest ones are household names, and you're always on the losing side somehow. Well,
Unknown Speaker 16:21
if
Speaker 1 16:22
there's a problem, that's very often true. But there are some, I think, better than others, like Denton or Bergen. And
Speaker 2 16:29
Bergen on on, for instance, Alfred clan story, yes, they charged me a lot of money. Difficult, I could there was a bad feeling created by them. Yes, with with Alex McCabe, for no reason whatsoever. Who
Unknown Speaker 16:47
owns those rights? Now, do you or just
Speaker 2 16:49
i? Ordinary to Cannon, who then she made, but I lost very much on I didn't get much for it anyway. Just covered the expenses. There's
Speaker 1 17:00
one project that sounds very interesting, and that is the Liza Lynch one, but that would be very expensive. Picture is,
Speaker 2 17:07
unfortunately, all my they're all expensive. It's too big for anybody here. I was tired in this. I was trying to Down Beat too, yes, trying to get important people in interest in that. It's a marvelous story, because she it was, it's a true story. I know I've read about you, read your story. Elijah had it for since 1970 see when I finished, choose a fishman the other one, I thought, why not tie that? Now my wife was all for it, especially Anna Pablo, she loved and I had all encouraged of my own home and to get involved with things I believed. And she said, why shouldn't you become a producer? With all your experience, Erwin and you love for the subjects, you understand them.
Speaker 1 18:00
Well, it's a pity that you couldn't have operated as a hyphenate doing your photography, which which is
Speaker 2 18:09
difficult in between, but very comfortable, as you know. But I didn't care much for them. I'm
Speaker 1 18:20
gonna go down the list. I think we've covered most of these things, but this, these are points that we try to make sure we've embodied in the in the course of the interview. I think we've touched on payment. I mean, eventually you must get a very highly paid, oh yes,
Speaker 2 18:46
always amongst the hardest word and and thanks to that, you know, I managed to finance myself, but I use most of my life savings to try and promote things which I like. Well,
Speaker 1 18:58
that's a great danger, isn't it? Good business manager
Speaker 2 19:02
had been a clever businessman, and, you know, would have been you needed a partner, maybe. And also, if I had lived in Hollywood, you see, JD talks to me many times. You waste your time in London. There's nobody there to stop it too big. I
Speaker 1 19:18
was going to ask you that, did you ever think of going to myself?
Speaker 2 19:22
And again, I thought, you know, when you're happy marriage, you want to leave your wife for a long time. I had so many location Williams was bad enough.
Unknown Speaker 19:31
You wouldn't have thought of relocating to to California.
Speaker 2 19:35
Well, I could have done. But my daughter was growing up near to and, you know, it's so it was rooms that kept you here, especially of a firm business suddenly tearing it all apart. I should have done that. Just stood true. I should have done a years ago. So many of the directors he worked with ended up there. I mean, John willerman said to me many times he had said, I'm in London. Would have been. Starving, you know? And it goes for JD Tom to choose a waste of time. No, your father, you know, he's been, you know that for a long time.
Speaker 1 20:08
Well, I mean, now, how many directors are working here? Now? Yes,
Speaker 2 20:11
Michael Anderson had to rely on he was bush with American companies. It's so sad. The thing that we haven't got a big business here. Left so sad.
Speaker 1 20:31
We've covered, I think, all these things other than the three areas you say, you've worked in recent years on a lot of commercials. Any particular thoughts about commercials? What was, did you find it in an area of interest to experiment? Or was it, again,
Speaker 2 20:51
sometimes they can be, and there's so many phonies and that, you know, it's all make believe, as you know, and it's,
Unknown Speaker 21:00
it's, it's, well, phones and learners, yes,
Speaker 2 21:03
it's, you know, it's, and some of the stores are so ridiculously thought out, they had very little relationship to the subject matter you're selling. And you so much money is wasted, mindless. It's the client's money. Obviously, I made a lot of money out of that, also in Germany, and then and they went to Hamburg and also Munich and London, many ones and I went to Spain for them. I went even saw them South America to film Pepsi Cola. I put me on Coca Cola, BECTU partner, an American commercial? Yes, yes. Merring company, I went all the way from from London to Boris, Iris, you know, and shopping there, because apparently they had no copyright, had some copyright difficulties, but not in Washington, right?
Speaker 1 21:56
So would you say that? So I don't want to put words in your mouth. Would you say that doing commercials really has not taught you anything or given you that area
Unknown Speaker 22:07
to experiment? Well,
Speaker 2 22:08
at times, you know, you do something which is different, but the whole thing is just that big joke. Really. I hate to say that, and I know it can look very nice. It could be very satisfying that point of view. But it's not. It's not, it's not the firm business. It's not, no, no,
Unknown Speaker 22:30
no. It's the source of income and
Speaker 2 22:32
the welcome one, yes, then again, I was made enough there to say, Well, okay, it's, let's try see our luck on something, something really worthwhile. Life is meant to be lived only here, very short period of time. Why not try your luck? Mind you, I don't know what the Alison McCain stories turned out now, Canon being the company who made it. What was it titled? Was called not a river of death. Alice McLean re titled it the river death. The novel was the best seller about four or five years ago, and so we thought the title is perhaps better. So they're using our title.
Unknown Speaker 23:16
Is it out here? Has it been out here.
Speaker 2 23:24
Just finished shooting in Africa, right? Okay, tan sky. I think it's like that. Okay? And
Speaker 1 23:33
going one question about commercials. When they call you for a commercial, what is it they want from you? Is it realism, or is it high style? Well,
Speaker 2 23:44
both. Sometimes it had to be realism, like flying sequences where the new might buy back on implying, then some, as fantasy and more glamorous presentation. Yes, and just to be trying to get something an unusual way, you could use filters in a different way and exaggerate certain things so they
Speaker 1 24:12
see you as a stylist. You can lift maybe something
Speaker 2 24:16
Yes, good. And also BECTU in Germany, they always wanted things like that, because they're not as vast as once in Britain, I think is far ahead on advertising and people connect with the industry than any other European country. Yes, no question about it, even past it not in the same class than our top people. And I think our top people have proved, I believe some have become very prominent director, you know, Alan Parker, for instance, and it wasn't the other ones. You know. You know they have. Yeah, perhaps, sure, maybe they can tackle features eventually they could do naturally.
Speaker 1 25:11
There's another area that we've touched on. You've mentioned the nominations that you had. I gather you had 14 nominations. Were they for the American Academy or the British, British
Speaker 2 25:23
and European? I gave all the details to to what's the name? Kevin, yes,
Speaker 1 25:33
doesn't list them. It says that you were nominated, but it doesn't say what nominations they were. But okay, I'll get that documentation.
Speaker 2 25:39
I got them because, also I got some, I remember the BSC, British society also gave us notification, and also the British Academy. He's got all the information.
Speaker 1 25:59
Well, I'll get that from him. The last I should ask, were you ever nominated for by the American Academy?
Speaker 2 26:08
No, not, not American Europe here, right. Okay.
Speaker 1 26:14
Last area that we should devote some time, a little time, to, is that of Act, because you mentioned at the very beginning that you were an early member.
Speaker 2 26:23
I was the when I worked Goon British, there were 50 of us in the camera and sound department, and we all decided that we ought to try and form a union, because we worked all hours and we didn't. We already received half a crown sub allowance, which that's all we had, and we met Captain coppos, then the first one in a pub near shepherds Bucha, and we won't talk about the management if we thought of joining a union to be instantly dismissed. But most of us ignore that and we stay but it didn't who actually said that? Can you remember? But it was a pass up for management. I'm not sure it was the word. He came around. I'm not sure it was pieces champion was then the student manager, and was somebody in a sort of higher I don't think was bought him. And we were just told that, you know, you better watch out, because you know, this is the situation.
Speaker 1 27:32
Did people to your knowledge get fired because they joined the Union? But Did anyone get fired to your knowledge to join your union.
Speaker 2 27:41
We were kept quiet. We just thought we were just work on this together. Yes, and after all, we thought is something got to be done, because this is ridiculous work all our lives. It's exploitation, slave labor really, let's face it, and why should one have to work? So it's ours. You know, it's just, it's impossible to keep up standards. Because if you're tired of the Goon, you've got to have some break at least 10 hours in between.
Speaker 1 28:16
You know, do you recall what your number was then, or 33 Yes,
Speaker 2 28:21
unfortunately, they, when I asked them to look up the records, they couldn't find them here. They said, during the air, it's in London, something happened. There was a far Yes, but I remember I was number 33 I was I couldn't help. That's the memory. Man, yes,
Speaker 1 28:40
number did you? Did you rejoin then with a later number? Or I
Speaker 2 28:44
can't, I can't remember, I stayed, because when George Erwin took over eventually, and he organized things slowly, you know, yes, and it took, obviously, many years, as you know, until the thing began to take root. Yes,
Speaker 1 28:59
but 33 is not your present number, is it or?
Speaker 2 29:03
No idea somewhere I have got somewhere. I got a paid up membership card I see
Unknown Speaker 29:09
and
Unknown Speaker 29:13
and it was great, great.
Speaker 1 29:15
Tell us more then about how the union gradually became a more viable force, the captain. What was, what was your experience of the captain, this rather shadowy figure who was there at the beginning? Matthew cope,
Speaker 2 29:29
what do you remember about him? Very little that he was out of his depth, in a way, somehow he he he was just taken on something which I don't think he was could have, and he realized that that's why it took longer until George Erwin came involved. He sort of began to sift things out and lay out the pattern. Well, we
Speaker 1 29:54
know pretty much about George, but as I say, It's Matthew cope, who is this very nebulous figure there at the. Beginning, did you go to this cafe that he had? Well, I
Speaker 2 30:03
only met him, was at twice, one or two meetings, and that's all now I see. And we all said together, Word, you know, we have to find somebody else to take care of our affairs. And yes, who are the early members at the bush? Well, mostly camera and sound department. Remember Brock lebank was ahead of the camera department. Then we had Jeff Unsworth there, Sarah Knowles, Bernie Noel, Leslie, Rosen and Harold Britton and many, many others who can't remember all their names right now, but they all felt we ought to do something about this. And they all came in at the beginning, exactly, but mostly camera and sound. Actually, camel department was the largest because we had, as you know, many, many camera units working there, because of a number of productions were going all the time, and that time, also the studio were the busiest studio in England, because between Goon British and Gainsborough, they more or less had they were in The industry because VIP were working too, but not in not in source, not in that quantity. They were stronger, yes, and they were aiming at, you know, really international stars. Also gave many people opportunity to develop working with top class, you know, Latin camera man from different countries. So there were very nice days with act so slowly being wound up. And then I remember when I met Arthur made spies of the year, where David Lean was the editor and I was off another picture by John Cofield, who was producer of Spa, and he said to me, now, Erwin, I cannot pay you your top Sally, 15 pounds a week. I can only my budget only affords seven pounds.
Speaker 3 32:19
You've told me this story. Yes, we have you refused to do I
Speaker 2 32:24
reported to George Erwin. He said, Well, I'm sorry we can't do you do anything at the moment. Just very sad.
Speaker 1 32:34
When did the union become strong enough to surface and to influence events. Do you think during the war?
Speaker 2 32:45
No, I think it was well after war. I think man nearer, nearer were nearer 1950s I think, I think it was just struggling here and there that just were there, but weren't taken seriously enough I would remember when I worked for Havoc Allen in Venice on that picture, he that time the unions were already beginning to get stronger. Well,
Unknown Speaker 33:16
the other unions were quite strong. Weren't they? Not key in
Speaker 2 33:20
the war? Strong? You see? Et you particularly, they're the ones really terrified. Everyone see we are more of a gentle unit union, more, you know, we didn't want to use the rough methods to achieve our point of view.
Speaker 1 33:41
But did you ever come across instances where the electrician shielded act or act? Did they prevent act having problems by exerting their industrial
Speaker 2 33:57
not the sort of open way they may have been sympathetic, not really doing anything about it. You know,
Speaker 1 34:07
see, the team are so powerful themselves, yes, and really had very good spokespeople, but they use that clout for themselves. They didn't use it for a CT or union members in general,
Speaker 2 34:20
because, remember when I worked at bachelor. Bachelor was then the head of ET you, yes, strong personality. Joint Works Committee. Well, Erwin, your partner, nice. We, I said, Well, we're building up now. Say, Well, you got to really put some more effort into this. And, you know, and I'm he telling us a friend and we wouldn't tolerate this in our union. We tell them what we like. And that was that,
Speaker 1 34:51
did you, when you were at Denham, have anything to do with a short film called our film that Bert BECTU was very. Instrumental in getting going. It was a one reeler made as a cooperative venture by the studio personnel. Were you involved in that? No, I don't think so, because a lot of people who were there worked on it anonymously, but David Lean and Harold French and Emerick Pressburger, butchler was the oh yes sir, the guiding light in the
Speaker 2 35:27
where he was quite a character. So I got a very war with him. He was very nice person. I used to have many nice talks with him. And he was the great fighter, and he knew how to use the muscle, you know, and yes, yes, for for the workers. Management terrified. Well, he was a member of the party, oh yeah, terrified of him. But you did for anything later on, years later, they engaged him as being on the production side.
Speaker 1 36:04
He ended up at Thames Television, I think, just personnel
Speaker 2 36:08
and understand, but he took over. He told, Come, tell me what to do. I tell you what I know, all the tricks management exploited him and being a sole loyal person, he he knew what, what he could really use as a lever, yes, but the ultimate poacher turned game keeper? Oh, yes, absolutely. But it's I found a very fascinating character.
Speaker 1 36:41
Are you of the opinion that act and ACTT have been a good thing or a bad thing for the industry?
Speaker 2 36:49
I would like to see more from ACT than just being what I call looking after the financial side only. I think they should take greater part in for the future of the industry itself. Well, they try closer together with the management in a friendly way, without being coming cap in hand. You don't need to do that. And you trying to be helpful, trying to solve many things, because all the technical developments, new ideas, we can make adjustments. We should make adjustments. We should be flexible, so long as you are not hurting unjustly people who shouldn't be hurt. Because the industry has such a great range now, since televisions come into it is in and even commercial. Advertising lets it commercials, and without commercials, I think the whole thing would have folded. Would have been so many people on the bread line, you know. So you, you've got to take it all together. I like us to be more working together. Instead of being us, you, you and me. It's us. See, the German system is we. They work together. The management and the workers are together. They sit on the same thing for lunch. They exchange ideas together. They try to work out because they all need each other, and they be frank with each other. And the management appreciates enthusiasm, goodwill, honesty, and if they feel maybe they hadn't been fair enough, and they say, right, the chap, works very hard. Why should you get more? Get a better reward. And I think this is where it's it's this constant friction between both sides and our side not being often big enough to say, well, now we have to readjust it to having four on a sound. For instance, it should be done by three.
Speaker 1 39:11
Well, the fact is that changes like that do take place. They take place a little longer, perhaps than they ought to. And there could have been, yes, greater stress. It could have done a long time ago. This is the problem now that is happening in in the readjustment to the new systems of television and but I'm sure we'll come out of it with a sensible
Speaker 2 39:36
range far more than wait until there's a conflict of some sort of the conflict many times could have been avoided if one just got together, if there was a problem, quietly discuss it. Were you? Were you
Speaker 1 39:50
ever involved in a major industrial dispute on a picture? No,
Speaker 2 39:55
the only time I was told when, when Bucha annoyed me. There was an ABC, there was overtime ban on, and I wanted to see the rushes. And I said, you can't see the rush overtime. So why? She has a good item. I must see what my guest is. Work looks like, in case something has gone wrong or needs for adjusting. And I have a writers here. Sorry, I called it was a civil right back to Louis. I'm gonna see them. You can, you can't
Speaker 1 40:25
stop me. What was the burn? Was it not key? Who wouldn't run them? Or you were not
Speaker 2 40:31
allowed to talk, to act and not I was bad to see them. I thought that imposition chief camera man told by boom swinger, with all due respect. You see, I also felt not a bad mistake, that all the junior people who had hold great responsibility were the shop stewards, very often, and all the has apartments were looked upon as enemies. In a way, maybe the word enemy enemies, old old fog is true, and you don't need to keep on fighting people through stands too. I mean, I've been to many times at Greenman meeting, and I said, I don't agree. They say, Well, why? What's wrong? I said, Well, this is wrong and so and so long. Well, I would go to management if once I found my crew didn't have proper rooms on location, hotel rooms. I said, I'm sorry, come and see them. Look garbolic. Why should he, after hardest work being a dirty little dump, sure they can find a better room than that. So the production manager hated you for but he had to do something, and if he didn't do and I said I'd go and see the producer in that case, and a producer would take my word he knew I wouldn't go to him complain something if I wasn't wasn't justified. But you see, you can achieve quite a lot by being involved together and discussions together. I agree, and most producers, once you do it privately in their own office. They're ready to see things. If
Speaker 1 42:06
they are among the trustworthy ones, there are some who are not. But why? One can easily identify them after, of
Speaker 2 42:13
course, the majority are decent people. They're
Speaker 1 42:17
doing they're doing a job as they see it. Yes, yes. I suppose we're approaching the end of the side of the tape, and I guess we should start to draw it now to a close. Couple of very general questions. Would you have chosen another profession, another career? If you looking back now, have the opportunity to do so.
Speaker 2 42:45
Yes, I would. How much I love my work, what I've been through and seen. I often wondered, was it worthwhile, even when you achieved so much, the price one paid, and a terrible pain often it inflicts on you. Unfortunately, I'm too sensitive about most things. Perhaps you know it's it's very ruthless, callous, insincere, phony. I hate to say that that's the truth. I don't think I would have wanted to be involved, maybe as a director or producer, where you have control
Speaker 1 43:34
over things now you have the reputation I think, of being what difficult. That's right, yeah. Now, in what way do you think that is fair or unfair?
Speaker 2 43:47
Well, it's very unfair, because during time I'm difficult if, for instance, people don't carry out that job as they should do, they let you down.
Speaker 1 43:59
So you so indefinite? You're fighting for your standards and general standards? Yes, yes,
Speaker 2 44:06
I want our crew. I always tell my group before we start. If you have any departments come and tell me, I will. I'm here to help you and fight for you, because I know you're loyal to me, and you only grew your best for me, but we must communicate. So it's all I ask for but if, for instance, people took liberties, I wouldn't take it. You know, either from a director or even producer, looking
Speaker 1 44:34
back, was there always a point of opposition that you thought gave you trouble or was not performing as well as you would like to have seen? Well,
Speaker 2 44:46
I give you an idea. We went to studio in the morning. I used to get to even before half, not before my time. Go on a set. Check everything over. Look at things. People. Come on half past eight. You. By time the cameras positioned, laddie is nine o'clock, then as a tea break within half an hour, so half an all disappear. You slowly. Alfred electrician, most of them are not in a guarantee. Like the chief electrician has no control over his men. They did what they liked in most cases, especially a bppc. And it's galling to stand there and not be able to carry out your work. They're all being paid for very highly paid. Then quarter one comes along, somebody calls out, we're going to break now. So the first system said, well, middle of a shot, could you give us breaks? You get a call, a quarter, right? Okay, so they call a quarter. Pay aggressive mind. You're not very friendly. I mean, you know very well the problems when you make it home. It's not like office work, you know, where everything is just, you know, write it down. It's creative. Many respect, many elements are involved, and many times they have problems which delay things which it shouldn't have, and most of them don't work very fast. I tell you, this must not I can't stand the loafers who just play around because have been brought up the tough way. No that would never tolerate me to work that I would have been out of my ear, you know, if I was too slow and fiddling around was always ready.
Speaker 1 46:30
We're talking now of when in the 50s and the 60s,
Speaker 2 46:35
the whole period, right? I know only five things have improved. There's more discipline to certain extent, it's only through fear of unemployment, not because the people have changed. They haven't changed much. My battle has always been only if there's was no discipline on the floor, you couldn't do your job properly, or people just were not sufficiently interested to do their work, and they have to chase people up all the time. It was terrible. I used to take far too long lighting a set
Unknown Speaker 47:17
because you were alive. Yes, I understand,
Speaker 2 47:20
because they just let you down, you know, I'm surprised.
Speaker 1 47:23
You think it still operates that way today?
Speaker 2 47:26
Well, it's improved to set the change came with four wall studios and four wall it has changed, but only through fear, you know. But it's sad, yes. So the damage had been done, the markets money withdrew. They couldn't stand the sort of the Union attitude. Used to say to me many times, executive producers and producers, they don't mind paying extra if the people would only not always threaten them at overtime bands and all things. And, you know, it's always call a quarter, listen this and threaten you. And when I was on location in the Lake District, was always a great battle. It was getting close to one o'clock, and I could see the sun was going to set very quickly because of the cloud formation coming. And had two or three more shots, which we had to get, which meant working on to be half past one or quarter two, the shop steward came up to me and threatened me. I said, I'm carrying on working because very short has begun and be finished for the day. Boy, come back tomorrow. I say, I don't want to come back tomorrow. I have to match this work. And I feel not fair because you only had 11. Says you had more or less. You. When you go on location here, you have a Ronnie buffet all day long. When 10 3011, o'clock comes along, the people have enormous sandwiches, egg, cheese, ham, whatever. Everything right.
Speaker 1 49:06
The point is taken, and we're almost at the end. I want to ask you one last question. What's your favorite film that you've done?
Speaker 2 49:17
Favorite? Well, well, I have to have two of them, in a way. She's a fisherman and Busters, because I thought the booth had a fascinating story, and they were very interesting people.
Speaker 1 49:38
Are they also the ones in which you think you did your best work?
Speaker 2 49:41
Well, I loved those two. I mean, I could see that perhaps also chase the COVID shadow was great fun on the small budget film, but still, was a fascinating film to work on and shake hands with devil with the Irish, which I think. Was a door, but you
Unknown Speaker 50:01
haven't included any of the archers films,
Unknown Speaker 50:03
but I.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Roy Fowler 0:00
Right? I was wrong. It wasn't the last date. This is the last date. Yes, you were saying about your favorite films, and we I know where I'm going, and the arches Well, I know I'm going. Was exciting
Speaker 1 0:15
in many respects. As you know, we want to do coward black and Whirlpool four times, yes. And that by itself was, you know, quite terrifying, but exciting.
Roy Fowler 0:26
Well, I'm thinking not of the experience of shooting, but when finally the film was finished, and you said,
Speaker 1 0:34
I was very proud because it came off. It was admired by many, many people, and in America was a great success as well, and everywhere was a great success. And opened up many doors for me that one film alone, it's yes. So that was crucial in your career. Also Canterbury table, which was just before that, right, also open the doors enormously. What's your
Roy Fowler 0:58
own favorite film that you've worked on or made, and the one, the one in which you least like your own work,
Speaker 1 1:08
well, like girls, it's stupid comedy, like girls at sea, which made it a BBC and pot carries I thought absolutely this place for me, I felt like A calm down. You would have said London town. But London towners were because she I put them together in many respects, because London Town worked with a man who had whatever talent you had, he had none on the picture. It had gone, yes, absolutely, completely, that was a disaster. I knew it was a disaster, and this way I should have been more temperamental and more difficult, as he said, by reputation, as I should have walked out and I didn't allow myself to stay on. Yes, with great pity. Well,
Roy Fowler 2:00
you've had good and bad breaks. In that respect, London time was obviously a bad break. But other times you were very fortunate, oh yes, in the choice of pictures
Speaker 1 2:09
eventually, but you saw the print again, good print. It is still look very nice. There was nothing to be ashamed of. But I was ashamed having worked the person who was so had no ethics. Had just a phony he was a washed up producer. It's
Roy Fowler 2:27
a terrible film. I mean any rational term.
Speaker 1 2:33
And you know what? Again, the people I complain about, they say, Well, what's wrong with it. I said, Well, everything is wrong with it. They call you being difficult when you criticize anything. I
Roy Fowler 2:46
wonder if poor old Sid fuel was affected by that, because he died not long after that. I know it very young, obviously,
Speaker 1 2:52
he was disappointed one hand and again, his event was a very, what I call straightforward, simple person. I don't think he just except he thought that's the way films are made. You see, he didn't know. See, most people don't know. Unfortunately, the troubles when you know. Please don't think I'm considered I know perhaps too much for most people. Abe really worked with a director who knew more and I did about film making. That's true, absolutely, even Michael Powell with all respects. I mean, I used to you have less the ideas. Yes, you
Roy Fowler 3:26
have a turn of mind that is both technically competent and also creative, artistically creative. And it's the combination of those two things, I think.
Speaker 1 3:34
I mean, many camera man's director, you see, because I'm think, from a point of view of storytelling, to me, camera should tell a story, and I usually work very well with most directors. There's only some obviously resent you knowing more. I found that as one gets older, people don't like to work with older people. They like to work with their own age group. I can understand that because I started very young
Roy Fowler 4:01
Yes, and one always regards the older people as passe,
Speaker 1 4:06
we do a downside, more, much more energy they have. I mean, my energy, once they get warmed up, is unlimited. It's always
Roy Fowler 4:14
interesting when they come to you and they say, I want to do this. And you say, Well, you know, I did that 30 years ago, 40 years ago,
Speaker 1 4:21
but usually be very polite and tempted with them benefit of a doubt, and that's only they tactically suggest. Maybe they like to consider this idea, and they still don't like it. You know, if you know, I found many people resent you that your knowledge his house superior, and that's why I should have been a director or producer, yes, and when I had this, I should have left that apartment, because I would have enjoyed I would have meet Anna Powell over to meet Liza Lynch. And all my ideas, I'm not trying to show up to a really, very interesting ideas. Will Yes, yes. And also, Alice mcinto, if you read my treatment, and I'm not a writer, but I can see it visually, and that was enough for even Alice mcener said, right, I write it for you. If you wait a year because he was busy, then, see, there's so much in film making which could have been developed further, and I would have so much likely worked with people who were more advanced guards, who had learned their profession properly, not rely on gimmicks, trickery, conning people and giving lot of big lies and being at the meetings at times when people talk so much, boas and, you know, just have to pretend it's all intelligent. Well,
Roy Fowler 5:48
sadly, there's too much money involved for phone is not to be attracted to it and cooks equally.
Speaker 1 5:55
So I got the talent here. You see, we have enormous talent in this country, I think the greatest talent in the world is in Britain, if we happen to have American distribution behind us and some efficient, ruthless American producers of the old days. Carl Foreman was who I met many years ago. We had a great rapport. He made very interesting films, ganze naval. Only remember the first one he made, and I know he had a varied career at the same time, he was a great human being too, and very imaginative person. He was interested on a popular The reason I couldn't get him involved, because he was tied up with Columbia that long term contract. But see the talent we always had here and all departments, and even today on television, we see some marvelous talent. You see some very nice photography, too. And also, you see,
Roy Fowler 7:04
I think we produce superb technicians and some really very good directors. Overall, we don't seem to be very productive with producers,
Speaker 1 7:14
exactly. That's why I wish now many Carl form is to say to me, Erwin, you ought to become a producer, because I would have been driving them in a nice way and being behind and fight for them. That's what a producer should do. He should know when they have problems, and should make sure the problems can be minimized and taken away. You don't know why the director and other people working for you to adapt to that, but you must communicate. And if you haven't got a producer who knows very little about you can't communicate, and the ship just drifts this. Why films like revolution, which was recently a disaster, if they had a producer on the firm, he should pull things up. Wasn't David Putnam supposed to be part of this whole set up there, and Sir Richard Attenborough keeping an eye on saying, he said, Oh, weren't the chairman of gold crush and so on? Well, they were. They should have made a point. Sorry, mate. You
Roy Fowler 8:16
know this is not right. Well, yes, I'm not sure one can blame a director if a producer is fool enough to allow him to operate in such an undisciplined fashion. The classic example, of course, is Heaven's Gate in the States, the film that broke United Artists. It was a runaway production, megalomania, just the same with Hugh hertz
Speaker 1 8:44
here, should never be allowed if a producer was strong enough. But then again, the companies don't always back the producer. The directors have become now the big stars and have been given great power, which they're not entitled to have. This power, their job is to direct a firm in the most efficient, imaginative way, without breaking a bank. If they agreed to a schedule and budget, if they didn't like it, they should not undertake it. That's my opinion. That's why I admired about Michael Anderson. He had a great conscience about things. He knew exactly how to lay things out. We discussed things. We had any problems. We worked them out together and be very ready behind schedule ever.
Roy Fowler 9:28
Well, it's basically a discussion there of film making on the one hand as an industry, and on the other hand, as I will put it in quotes, the word art.
Speaker 1 9:39
But it can be it should be art because it should be creative people, developing ideas, developing techniques, developing an entertainment which the public wants to see. You see you can't make films for critics alone. I mean, that's ridiculous. Obviously you want to have nice reviews and be grateful to have them. Yeah. But it should also make a point to see what people like, and put yourself in their position and to see it that way. You see the industry gets, they quickly swollen head. You get one big success, and they think they're God so being humble, and all great artists are humble people. They're not arrogant people, and that's what I found people I've worked with, and that's why I can't stand the phonies and incompetence at times and the indifference and lack of enthusiasm. And we work far too slowly. We can work faster if everybody really puts that back into it. And the more urgent you have, the better your work is. My best work has always been when I've been under pressure. Every time, when I had too much time, I started to get the pipe outs moving the dream about this, it's no good. There's a lot of money at stake all the time. You know that that you find the artist commitments are often very severe. So the company had problems too. So you want to try and help each other. This be my motto. People said, Oh, you're difficult because you're insisting something which we don't agree with. We want to take things in our own way. So I said, What is your own way? Well, you know, take it easy. You want to take it easy. Erwin, so I can't, because I'm I want to. I only have so much time to myself. I know should be lit this, this, this, I can light it in five minutes. It takes me half an hour to light up, because until everybody gets in position does this and that then he finds that the lock doesn't work on the lamp or the lock begins to flicker. Well,
Roy Fowler 11:49
this tape may be listened to in 30 years time by people who will look back and say, My God, is that how they made whatever they call them, films or television or tapes, digital, something over the other because one of the problems is how crude the equipment has been, and to a very large extent, still is when you think it is really of cameras that lasted for a long time as the camera to use, and yet they were very awkward In many ways with lighting units, absolutely.
Speaker 1 12:21
I nag about it to more rich and all the man manufacturers said, equipments, too heavy, too small. They get, I want small equipment. The Italians had coarse lighting. So I bought but I came back to London after filming Italy. I said to Pine, was dues, I like to get some coarse lighting. So they said, What's that as the latest time? So and so and so they looked at you see that difficult again. You want something we haven't
Roy Fowler 12:47
got. But it's extraordinary that they didn't know about it. This
Speaker 1 12:52
is no but I was trying to explain it to them, but I'm saying
Roy Fowler 12:55
part of their business is to be aware of what's going on.
Speaker 1 12:59
I used to travel all over Europe and find out what's going on. Drop in this studios, and you pick up very interesting information, especially in Italy. I found them. They going ahead people. They have tracking equipment and all its light equipment, lightweight equipment. They had lightweight lamps. You can speed up things better work. You could put lights in position which normally you couldn't put because they're too big and clumsy. Tapes enormous amount of strength to lift them around. And I complain about these things and say, well, that's the best we got.
Unknown Speaker 13:37
Make do with it.
Speaker 1 13:40
The same with the cameras itself. I always wanted us to design our own cameras. Nobody ever came forward only winter, many years ago, more, but they only copied a virtual camera. You know, do
Roy Fowler 13:54
you regard the panaflex as a good camera? Now,
Speaker 1 13:59
it's a more advanced camera, but I still feel more work should be done to make it still lighter so it becomes it's quicker to work, and also the lenses themselves, we have improved a lot. I know the film stock has improved to certain extent, but generally the approach is still not as professional as it should be. That when you go on a set, people should know everything should be ready. The director should know what is going to, where the setup should be.
Roy Fowler 14:34
I think with every justification, you're asking for a great deal. You're asking that someone who just moves the lamp around should have the same dedication and interest and ability as as as you who has a very rewarding job. It's a job that is immensely satisfying. There is there is the feeling of accomplishment when
Speaker 1 14:57
you but he needn't be electrician for all his life. So George Caran was electrician before he decided he loves photography, she became the camera department. Became a camera man, a very famous one, but a special one. He was electrician. Everybody has an opportunity. Roy in the industry to even Hitchcock was a pop man before he started, you know, and everybody started in sort of humble positions, you know,
Roy Fowler 15:29
oh yes, most people start doing something that they don't intend to stay
Speaker 1 15:35
she was always concerned me. Was very much that I like temp. I like things to happen I know, and do people be interested what they're doing not standing around then chatting about the football results or some other jokes and tell each other and standing on the hands of pockets and having teas all the time. It's an
Roy Fowler 15:54
ideal world that will never exist. Whenever I get feelings like that, I think to myself, Oh, my God. You know, 4 million people buy the Sun newspaper every day. It isn't that kind of world. But anyway, do you want to continue with the general discussion? Or shall we think about learning? I
Speaker 1 16:12
like to say that I'm not bitter about it. The only thing I feel sad about this that we could achieve much more for the British film ministry if there had been, in my opinion, a little bit more enthusiasm, little more in professionalism, and even from our Union's point of view, if we could have been more as close friends a collaborator and privately discussed each side's problems and wishes to enhance the standard and the you might say, rewards, financial rewards for everybody concerned. I like to see people become partners of it, getting share of the profits. So it's from a tax point of view, it's better from anybody really. So having now spread over time, and it's rather exciting to know that your firm, your work, has been successful, and the firms been enormous success financially, and you're going to get 1000s of pounds spread over years to come in as an additional income. You know, and we should have been in partnership with the producing companies and to gain their respect through the way we work and where we are as human beings. This is what I think, by having this shutter down and confrontation and and it's sad. It's not necessary. You know, I think you can persuade most people that you have a good point. I mean, I mentioned it many times, even with labels being temperamental, but at least if you're honest about things, somehow honesty carries a great has a great weight. And people, they may not agree with you right now, but they come back to you later on. Somehow, shall I give you last thought? You got a good point there. I feel, as the industry is now developed, going into a new technology, we ought to re examine everything and sit down. Put a management as you know, let's look ahead for the future. Let's put a blueprint, because we have the talent here. We all want to work. We don't want to demand types over time, which is rather little bit perhaps, over dramatic, put it this way, as long as it's a fair reward. Because, let's face it, after paying taxes and so on, the difference is only very small. You know, you can't beat a tax man. I never be able to. He's always took 70% of my Erwin, I'm not
Roy Fowler 19:01
sure it's worth trying. We'd better wrap up. I think you've been immensely generous of your time and your thoughts.
Speaker 1 19:10
I hope people don't think I'm revolutionary or
Roy Fowler 19:13
the last thing in the world I think anyone's gonna think is your revolutionary. I would have thought you are a great one for the status quo, in many ways, but I think the tape will prove that you are not at all. It's difficult. As you know, your reputation in some areas
Speaker 1 19:32
has, what do they say about me? Just that that
Roy Fowler 19:36
you are, I suppose demanding, which to a lot of people, is being awkward. Yeah, that's right. It comes back to people doing their job properly and knowing their job. See, I don't like losing but you probably are a hard task master. I would have thought, well, sorry, i. I just done the same thing with it.
Unknown Speaker 20:04
I forgot what happened? I forgot it was it's just
Roy Fowler 20:06
coward has it? I think we'll end there. Thank you very much, Erwin, that really has been I'm afraid that may have pulled a thread on your shirt. No
Speaker 1 20:18
See, I love you. Can always you.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Speaker 1 0:01
Erwin Hillier at his house. And the subject is going to be the Austro Hungarian film emigration and the influence it had on people in this country. So ah, right, Erwin, how do you think we should progress? Shall we just go? Why don't we discuss the major cameramen first? Yes, I think so, because and then we'll go down the more generalist,
Speaker 2 0:27
for instance, dinner camp. I worked with him three times, first time as camera assistant on juices. Little friend that was 1933 and then many years later on, about 1939 or 40 when I was camp operator, I worked with Dennis studios on the night of the fire which Brian Desmond Hurst directed. Terence Young was personal assistant. I think he just came out of the Foreign Office as his very first firm, and Richardson worked, you know, paid a leading part and made, I think we shot in 10 weeks At Denham studios. And then after that, I carried on with other land, light and camera man, for instance, before that, I had on your list, for instance,
Unknown Speaker 1:33
well, why don't we stick with Gunther Crump
Speaker 2 1:36
had, in my opinion, was a very creative artist, one of the cleverest at that time I worked with who was more like a professor, very shy person. His English was very limited, and my great help was be able to converse in both languages and knowing the translation English, what it meant in from a firm point of view,
Speaker 1 2:01
this was on juice use, yes. Do you know how long before he had arrived in this country? Do you know any of the biographical details about him? I met
Speaker 2 2:11
him in 1933 right that time I think may have been juice use first was
Unknown Speaker 2:18
he permanently on staff at he
Speaker 2 2:21
had a sort of contact over, I think, two or three years, something like that. They were not long term contracts. Do
Unknown Speaker 2:28
you know where he'd worked, in Germany or the
Speaker 2 2:31
him also worked in unfa Studios and also in Vienna, you know, because at that time, you know, most of the continental people of great standing. They fluctuate from Ufa studios, filming in Vienna, filming in France, you know, because being so close together, but Ufa at that time, was the big masjid, the number one in Europe, no doubt about it, because at all for studios, you have the greatest talent, in my opinion, of all time. You're
Speaker 1 3:06
talking now of the silent days, or the early songs, even
Speaker 2 3:10
towards the later part of the silent days, if you had been for the talkies, which came in in 1929 I remember correctly Ron dot, 2930 and because M had sound, as you know, and it was very impressive to suddenly have important film in sound as a German language had a limited you might say, Cleon Taylor, the word that When the talkers came in. UVA lost its position because most of the top people emigrated to America and came over here, as well Goethe camp and youngster and Ander many other outstanding lighting campaigns also came to London because they heard about England. They liked famously atmosphere here and the English character somehow.
Speaker 1 4:08
Are you saying it was less the Hitler regime that was before Hitler, was before Hitler, before Hitler. So it was really to get work. Was it? Yes. I
Speaker 2 4:18
mean, at that time, as you know, films always be international. Bucha studios had the international stars, people from all different countries who worked there, because being the sort of, might say, Mecca that time of film making, and also having those qualities which attracted people and there were some wonderful people working there,
Speaker 1 4:45
yes, indeed, but and British films by comparison, were largely terrible at that stage.
Speaker 2 4:52
No division. Unfortunately, was only VIP who unfortunately did not measure up to obey. Much they were trying to be, you know, ambitious, but it didn't quite come off well. Somehow, Caesar leadership, in my opinion, is always the vital element. Without that, the
Speaker 1 5:12
breadth of vision is what's important. When I get to
Speaker 2 5:17
Austria, the Goon, British picture Corporation, the ostwalds were then in charge of also foreigners who believed very much that should be an important film minister. So they used their studio, bringing over again, some they thought excellent talents, directors, lighty, Cowman, Alfred young without designer Metz. Now, many other important people, would
Speaker 1 5:46
you say that was the austras or Mickey bulkin? Well, Balkan
Speaker 2 5:50
as well. He was very important person. He was the more experienced person. See, Balkan had, as you know, more experience as a creative filmmaker, as he asked us more business people, right? You see, and Balkan that time as though he was charter production, and they great influence. I mean, as you know, later on, he formed this E Lee Studios, which became famous. And in my opinion, Balkan was one of the greatest British film makers right
Speaker 1 6:20
now. Do you think that Goon and British deliberately sought out people to bring over, or did they pick up people once that arrived here? How did that?
Speaker 2 6:29
No, I think they saw, they made, they did a home by checking over various people being in contact, communicate with important people, and then in no time, they heard about So, so and so on. They bought them over for some the subject they had in mind. Well,
Speaker 1 6:47
the fact is, as I remember, there was quite a lot of CO production with Germany in the very early days of sounds. Wasn't there. So they must, they must have known each other. And
Speaker 2 6:58
as the director came over and he I worked with him on little friend. His English was very appalling, you know. But same time, he could influence actors, and he did very well. I thought Noel film was the young English actress who were given the opportunity. She did extremely well. And then, of course, on the Man Who Knew Too Much where I was also camera assistant, which, again, was the very important firm which Hitchcock remember made. And we had Peter Laurel in that who I worked with on end beforehand. And actually was Peter asked for me because he said, I like he liked to have a friendly face on the film. Somebody knew, and I got them very well with them, but I worked at first time on end. So that was my introduction, you might say, more or less to Hitchcock. Yes. Was a wonderful director that even those days, we
Speaker 1 8:00
mustn't get too involved with the UFO side of because that's German. We must concentrate on Australia, because it's such a wide field to cover anyway. Coming back to Crump Can you describe him as a person, as an individual, both in his appearance and also his manner?
Speaker 2 8:19
Well, it appears he looked like a professor, you see. And when you look at this photograph here, you see it on the extreme right in the bottom, with the glasses looking at you, you can definitely say he doesn't look like a lighting camera man, or he looks more like a professor. He was a professor in many respects. His knowledge and style was unique. I got very attached to him because I found there was a very creative artist. And again, his English was very limited, and I used to help him many times, even being a camera system to explain things to base, to Chief Gaffer, or many times for the director, what he wanted to do. Yes,
Speaker 1 9:08
for the tape. I'm looking at a still from night of the fire. Yes, which is the unit shot, or it's the camera crew and Ralph Richardson. Do you know Trump's background at all. His family origins, where he was sorry, yes,
Speaker 2 9:27
background, I never quite got to know that I met his wife in London. Was invited to his home also twice, and they were very seriously minded. He came from an upper middle class family, very well spoken, wonderful person, and they artistically attune to see
Speaker 1 9:58
what were his interests. Was he a painter.
Speaker 2 10:01
His interest was more to be creative filmmaker. He he was like he painted with his lights. He used small, little light units. And I was surrounded when I was camera operator, on on light of fire with so many lamps. I was always worried, in case I would pick up some of his lights on the shot and I wouldn't do and I found him a very charming person, but again, very seriously mind a person to work with. I think you told me
Speaker 1 10:34
he was rather shy. Was Was that a language problem with him, or
Speaker 2 10:39
part in his makeup is he must concentrate so much to be creative. So you can't be a joker and comedian on the floor and also do your work the same time. Same as Alfred young, was very serious. So as did become very serious. And this is the sort of Germans character that they are trying to be perfectionist, yes, purposeful. They're trying to give their very best, and their only best is the thing acceptable to them, if they can achieve that in time. That
Speaker 1 11:12
kind of attitude, a very serious minded attitude. Did that cause a little problem with the English crew,
Speaker 2 11:20
yes, because English crew liked to have jokes, jokes made and everything to be on a light hearted thing. They were base hairs because their career was at stake every time you work. If the rushes weren't any good, you'd be removed of the picture, and your career be finished. So it's a great you know,
Speaker 1 11:42
yes, so was there tension between the English crew,
Speaker 2 11:47
not what I call this, but they didn't care for Bisco so and so, in that they didn't appreciate as an artist.
Speaker 1 11:56
Were the British people very professional themselves in those days? Did they know what they were doing or was beginning.
Speaker 2 12:02
I mean, I hate to say they were in the early stages of just learning to business, very little education. As far film making concern, they just came into because it'd be a glamorous business, easy money, they thought. And, you know, mixing with big stars and made them feel important, and the majority and at that time, were not what I call the elite of film making, because they hadn't did that large the experience takes a lifetime to learn about being great craftsmen you Just can't do the first, second, third year, even longer than that, there's so much to be learned. There's so many facets. There's so many different approaches. It's a highly complicated way of living as well, and you have to devote so much time and energy
Speaker 1 13:02
when you first met cramp, which was, you say, 33 so then he was around 34 Do you know how long he had trained, how long he'd been in the profession? Well,
Speaker 2 13:12
I'm not quite certain. I know he was only established on the continent as being a great artist, and he was very popular with those people there, and somehow he was approached to come to London. The idea peer to them. And he liked very much England, even when his English was very limited. He started like the atmosphere, and his wife liked it here too. And as was, over a certain period of time, he thought it'd be rather nice to come and work here. So he arrived as a fully fledged, Oh, absolutely, cameraman, but a great reputation. Alfred younger, great reputation. Do
Speaker 1 13:55
you know what the influences on him had been any particular director or Continental camera man, well,
Speaker 2 14:02
see, in those days, the lighting camera man was just as important as a top director. If you happen to be a top lighting camera man, they were treated much greater respect. Was on the continent, the Emerick, you see, they were put on par. It's my favorite. There was certain lighting camera in Germany used to go out before pictures would start and get atmosphere shots for for the production they're going to start so many months later in studio. And many times they brought back material where they said, that's a good idea with time resetting that so the creative element was based on amongst lighting camera man, not just lighting a set and doing things like that, but creating an atmosphere and ideas and camera movements and and it's a great art, really. It used to be, you don't mind? I was bought out. But great artists, especially in black and white, yes, and maybe where they were lighting, mixing arcs and ink is, you know, and getting some wonderful black, luminous shadows and lovely effects.
Speaker 1 15:14
Had he been? Was he out of the German expressionist school? Was was because we were inclined to think of the U for lighting is very contrast the
Speaker 2 15:25
star you see. I mean, I use, I was they accused many times that I, I, I set myself to the to the German style of photography when I became lighting camera man, and naturally, he learned so much from the Continentals I was had that feeling towards that understanding and appreciation, and it was, in my opinion, at that time, of very high standard. And, for instance, English that time camera man like Bernie Noel and Leslie house and going by Goon, British picture Corporation, where they were working on certain productions. There were the newcomers who were reasonably good, but they hadn't the class put it this way, of the top continental cameraman, like Kurt co Ranch, Gunther camp, jansdale, Frantz, planner, ones who came over here. So you might say the marriage between continental filmmakers and at that time the small British film industry. Don't forget gold, British picture Corporation, BRP, were the only two companies major companies, one or two small companies, but Goon, Goon, British picture Corporation, only function for two or three years. Then they somehow faded away because they couldn't get the American market. That's a long story, as you know. And without the American market, you were very limited in getting your coup, your great outlay. That was our great failing.
Speaker 1 17:09
It was the great crisis of 1938 Absolutely, when the studios,
Speaker 2 17:13
years later, when Alex, when rank, put in enormous amount of money, they thought they can do it. They couldn't get him.
Speaker 1 17:23
That was, that was a decade later, in 1948 that was political. We, as I say, we better concentrate on individuals still with cramp. You say his style was painting with light, and he used lots of small units. Absolutely, he's very contrasty in the frame. Was it light and dark? It had a contrast
Speaker 2 17:44
the star. But he used diffusion like gauzes, which reduced the contrast to certain extent, gave it so lovely sort of quality, you know, because you take away the harshness and he still got the beauty of tone range.
Speaker 1 18:02
He didn't do that only with leading ladies. Then he'd do it on, on a more general shot, well, on
Speaker 2 18:08
everything but leading ladies, he was his lighting was always superb. It's like rampant lighting, you know, it had that quality. Did
Speaker 1 18:18
he go for source lighting? Did he? Did he motivate lighting? Well, he
Speaker 2 18:22
motivated it by using small units on since you take this lounge, you would work mainly with pups, 500 watt lamps and
Speaker 1 18:31
take, excuse me, taking a room like this, what would he light? What would he pick out? Pick
Speaker 2 18:37
out certain features, which he himself would turn like an artist would say, I select this corner, leave a Western room in darkness, and get the light source there, not as flutter, but light, like so many camera man would do, and get an exposure. He didn't work that way. It was creative thinking. Style was
Speaker 1 18:59
it possible to use given the speed of the film, practical to use practical fixtures in those days. Or one had to simulate a light source. Well,
Speaker 2 19:08
you always simulated the effects. But he was always very clever using, for instance, photo floods behind something to get from us, from a lamp, to get the light itself in a corner, for instance, and then he would just built up on that slightly. He used reality in a creative manner, you know. And I admired him, and because I learned so much from him as camera assistant, first and then camera operator, right? And as a person, I thought he was delightful person.
Speaker 1 19:40
Well, now let's try and be precise about what you learned in terms of, did he ever operate himself? Had he been an operator? Well, I believe
Speaker 2 19:48
he went through we see on the continent the lighting camera was also over at his camera. Yes. See when I worked for Fritz Lang, Fritz Ann Wagner. Lighting camera man, but he also operated the camera, and I was just the assistant. So there were only just two people on the camera, plus a grip here was just helping an equipment. And when you tracked a shot, you moved the dolly right. There were just those few people only, yes, and that was the style of working later on. As you know, the Merkel style was introducing more more staff, right?
Speaker 1 20:26
So by the time we're talking about now on juice use, what does the camera crew comprise as the director of photography? Oh,
Speaker 2 20:33
yes. And again, the English star was to have an operator. Now, Blackie Goon didn't mind having to operate as long as the operator was working under control. Worked together with lighting camera man, not just be a prima donna and just say this is where the cameras going to be. Light camera said, Well, I see it this way. He discussed with the director and the camera operator would listen to the conversation and then carry out what has been designed by the director. And like you tell man,
Unknown Speaker 21:03
and in addition, there'd be a focus puller
Unknown Speaker 21:07
and a loader, Trapper board and then camel
Speaker 1 21:10
group, right, okay, but in your experience, Krantz never operated here. He would always
Speaker 2 21:18
fitted in to everything. He was very happy to go along with whatever was acceptable here.
Speaker 1 21:25
So the impression may have been that he was a rather remote and Doer man, but in actual fact, he was not. Did he have a sense of humor?
Speaker 2 21:34
Well, he had a limited sense of humor because he he was a very gentle, shy person. And you know, he lived for his work. You know it was just something which part of his existence, and many people in this country would say, was rather bit one side. But you see, when you create a person, you don't, you realize how difficult is to achieve high standards all the time. It's very hard, you know, indeed, and it's very well people very good talkers. I've been in many meetings and hear all that they don't have no idea. They go on the floor what to do. It sounded great at the meeting, but the artist doesn't say much. He says, right? And he goes ahead and does it.
Speaker 1 22:26
And cramp was an artist whose fingernails, you say. He brought a wife with him from, yes, from the continent. Did they have children? It would be interesting to see where I
Speaker 2 22:37
can't remember. It's all family life. I knew that she was also very naturally devoted to him, very shy person, very quiet person. And see they were, they belong to some very nice middle class background. And there was in his book, beautiful German, highly cultured person,
Speaker 1 23:02
and presumably he mixed with other emigre rather than the native people.
Speaker 2 23:08
See, don't forget, when you work on a firm, work six days a week, in those days, even seven days and a fatal time left for socializing. You know it's yours tired by time you finished your work when you have a Sunday off or Saturday off, you know it's you want to have it as a rest period. But he studied all the time a script, and he thought up things how to develop it. Had meetings with Alfred young of once in the art design, production designer, and they discussed ideas, might say 24 hours.
Speaker 1 23:46
So he wasn't a Jew. He wasn't Jewish. That isn't real. No, he was the career move to this country.
Speaker 2 23:54
He just came over. There was no political there was no political side. Okay, the majority came over here were not politically motivated to leave Germany at that time. It's only later on when Hitler took from 1933 Yes, even, even the before that, it was not even 33 was not quite the Exodus, see, and the Exodus started with when sound came in to certain extent. Yes,
Speaker 1 24:28
he became chancellor 60 years ago. Last week, actually, is that? So, yes, january 30, 1933,
Speaker 2 24:37
68 shows. Amazing how time flies, doesn't
Speaker 1 24:41
doesn't it just right? Um, well, now maybe the next thing would be to ask you specific memories on juice use, which was the first time that you met him and worked with him. Luta
Speaker 2 24:57
Mendes was the director. What? Also from Germany. Now, he had a great sense of humor. He was more, you might say, American. This outlook, in a way, even being come from Germany. And he was a great showman as well. With that, he knew how to look important on the set, because he had that flare. It was a colorful personality, and he handled the artists beautifully, coward by to play the leading part. And in that time, it was the most important film. It was a great prestige film for Goon bridge picture Corporation. They used games with studios as well as for other sets which he couldn't built in at Goon, British studios. So it was then the most important film by having a sort of Jewish background in the story, as you know, the leading part. And coward white, at that time, was a big star, you know. So that was the prestige firm that time for the for the company, it took longer to make than most other firms, you know.
Speaker 1 26:14
And very expensive, absolutely. And it was, it was crucified in the states by the Jewish people. Yes,
Speaker 2 26:22
exactly, because he is one of these ideas which just didn't quite click in the right places. And it was a great honor that time to work on juices because of the importance of subject matter.
Speaker 1 26:38
Yes, well, the book had also been very successful, absolutely. Well, you've covered generally his working methods. Are there any specifics that come back to mind on that picture?
Speaker 2 26:53
Well, the main thing, he always created the best of atmosphere. It was wonderful where he lit his sets and artists, and his style was, you know, always very much respected, because after that, I think I worked with him a little friend, where lower filming, English actors have a leading part. That was a delightful firm. Was a much smaller firm and Beatriz directed another German Yes. I've forgotten all about him that he's very important. Yes. And, you know, it's, it's, it's amazing how these when I look back that time, I know it's a hell of a long time ago, but very exciting days, from my point of view, and I didn't care if they worked overtime, to hell with it, you just went along. And they weren't any union meetings or somebody saying this. They all love the word. They were connective with
Speaker 1 27:57
How old were you in 33 you were then? What around late teens.
Speaker 2 28:03
22 I think was 22 years of age. Was born, 1911 so I was still they were very lucky, very young. I started young in a way. And I think hope the Bible say met the right people. Was lucky to pass for one important person, another important person. Yes, you see and learning all the time. Oh yes. And they once you become respect and popular, it's amazing. The number people want you to come on that work with them. And I was so lucky about to get the young star elite on other people like that. Erwin.
Speaker 1 28:41
Here is Crump with a very specific style of lighting and needing equipment. What exactly did he have to work with at Goon? British? Did he have as good equipment as at UFO or
Speaker 2 28:57
that time cinephor and camels came from Czechoslovakia, made in park, and they were, I can't remember who recommended them. I may have been Max Greenbaum at that time. Who suggested a company I worked didn't work with him. Was not a German camera. And he said, Well, why not? Instead of buying Mitchell, camels have, they're very easy to handle, you see, and with Mitchell, there was always, see, you had to use big blimps and things like that, because this cinephor camera was blimped together, you see, weighed about 120 pounds. And those cameras were very easy to have, straightforward please me, a little lava, not as steady as a Michigan camera would be, but good enough for for moose farm making news.
Unknown Speaker 29:53
How about the lighting units?
Speaker 2 29:56
They're usually normal in keys and arcs, you know, you. In those days you had, you know, the big, big arcs, everything was heavy and cumbersome, but see, that's where was so nice to see a lighting camera get to camp using small units, which I personally always loved when
Unknown Speaker 30:13
you say a small unit. What wattage would it
Speaker 2 30:16
be? 500 watt, one kilowatt, two kilowatts, and then five kilowatt was, at that time, the biggest lamp on be able. Yes, there weren't any 10 case or 20 case or very enormous big boats, which came many years later, arcs. There were smaller 150 amp. Arts were, that time, just the largest source, and the German style was the mixing arts with inks. Cleverly. I love that because I've mentioned to you the rich black tones they achieved and the depth and the way they diffused the camera lens. It bought an arch, which I thought was a basic feature, which many people later on try to follow.
Speaker 1 31:16
The incandescents are all units with lens. Are they Fresnel lenses
Speaker 2 31:23
or small little units like, yes, up 500 watt pubs,
Speaker 1 31:27
right? But with a lens, very, very highly controlled, yes. How about barn doors?
Speaker 2 31:34
Oh, we had barn doors then and fuel diffusion were made up, you know, to
Speaker 1 31:38
go to, right? Gobos, yes. All that, flags and Vegas, and that's the sort of thing that
Speaker 2 31:46
he knows. They say, put in different effects, shadows,
Speaker 1 31:50
see. So these were all things that cram, fused Absolutely.
Speaker 2 31:53
And they see, he introduced many things like that. And so did Courant and Max cream Baum, who also worked a gold bunch picture Corporation, and they see the German style was more dramatic. Put it this way, oh yes, that was their style. Yes. Chiaroscuro, yes, absolutely.
Speaker 1 32:17
What about the film store coffee. Well, I've still got, what about the film stock in use? Then it was very slow, wasn't it?
Speaker 2 32:29
They were very slow when you think the the they used to work because film stock being so slow, usually at wide open f2, wide open, two, three. We didn't stop down much at all.
Unknown Speaker 32:44
Is that's what he would choose,
Speaker 2 32:47
usually F, wide open and or two, three there that it would stop down to two, eight, if you go on to get a slightly sharper. But the sharpness was achieved in the lighting you see, how did
Speaker 1 33:02
he measure his light? Did he at all? No light status, no
Speaker 2 33:05
nonexistent by eye. I learned enormously by looking through the camera watching him and how he created it. And when I was camera operator with him, he said to me, look over any of the artists hanging the wall where it's lit up. Let me know, because I want to break up the shadows. I don't want a face against a light wall. So I used to call off over and say, Well, don't I think that corner where we staging it now it's has your bright effect. You want to break it up with something? Oh, yes, thank you. Erwin, so you put some cocolours in front of a lamp to break up the light source into light and shade. Did he look through the camera? Yes, he did quite a lot. I mean, he was in first way. He always controlled the setups, every setup. Yes, he wasn't told by the camera already would put the camera. He said, That's the place, and he discussed that with the director, and director was very pleased to get his cooperation, because he
Speaker 1 34:11
contributed. How did he get to the state? Would he watch a rehearsal that would the director stage it? Or would it have been discussed first of all with the director,
Speaker 2 34:20
and then they have a run through with the artists. And then on the set, I mean, beforehand, we say, Well, look, I suggest we use this part of a set, the door, they come through the door, and then they carry on this way. And the whole thing was planned and mapped out properly. Then, of course, then with the standards, later on, we start to to light the set,
Speaker 1 34:42
a fluid camera, lots of movement. Well,
Speaker 2 34:46
that time the camera was moved only when it was necessary. Only one necessary to track. You had many times tracking shots, but nothing, not to be contrived. You didn't want to. I. In the audience and feel it suddenly things are moving for no reason whatsoever. You got to travel with people, you know, and the flow was more what I call simply arranged without gimmicks, you know, right?
Speaker 1 35:22
Telling the story was the key to it.
Speaker 2 35:25
Exactly the artist, you know, motivate their part, and then being camel, be in position to capture everything, which was essential and to every was mapped out that you have long shot here, mid shot here, then a few close ups to bridge the scene. Now, what
Speaker 1 35:47
about the diffusion that you say he used a great deal of
Speaker 2 35:50
well, he liked very much using various different type of gauzes. And again, that would, I think, enhance, somehow the quality. Because if you took the gauze off for this, and you be surprised how this big thing became, often too harsh, because the lighting being more in certain contrast is down, but the gauze gave it a glow, which I thought was very attractive.
Speaker 1 36:24
What sort of gauze we didn't have Christian Dior stockings those days, what was used.
Speaker 2 36:29
But you had some different nets made up. And, you know, I had different light net, heavier net, heavier gauze. And somehow, he always found, found these things were made up on national frames, and you just put in front of a lens as close as possible. Lens, the course was always tied against the brilliant tied
Unknown Speaker 36:52
against the lens. Noel, absolutely. Did you have Matt boxes?
Unknown Speaker 36:55
Well, we had everything. Was
Unknown Speaker 36:59
black, was white, mostly
Speaker 2 37:01
black glasses. You very rarely use anything except black. Only have some special sequences, Dream things like that, and you may use white courses, but generally black horses.
Speaker 1 37:15
Yes. Okay. Next question that occurs to me is his relationship with the lab and his control over, over his film as it's being developed or printed.
Speaker 2 37:29
Well, I remember getting stone that time. He was a gold British because they had their own bill girls.
Unknown Speaker 37:38
Yes, indeed, yes. And
Speaker 2 37:39
he was, he was sort of in between the laboratory. And Gunther would say more as what so prince, he expected, and he got them. Did you
Speaker 1 37:53
have one like Prince in those days? How it was graded?
Speaker 2 37:57
He didn't. He wanted things to be graded a certain extent, you can't just light everything on a one number. I know many people argue for that, but the same time, when you create something you expect in a printing to make small adjustments to suit that, you see it's all very well. People say, let's print every one number. It doesn't work that way. Some the greatest firms in the world have often been created where one printing like was four or five points light or darker. You know, you just can't go by numbers. It's what you feel and see. You know that's important. So the laboratory only happens to make sure the negatives probably developed right. I learned a lot from watching the laboratory how the negatives should be developed. Before I came into firm business, I was asked the issue with base negatives, what was my opinion about the negative? I said, this one is, I'm exposed. So they said, How did count for that? So I explained to that. This one, I said, is over developed. How do you know about that? I said, because if you go by the numbers on the side numbers. They are slightly distorted. They should be clean. If it's properly developed. There's no the temperature control of laboratory is vital element can ruin the work of a cameraman, or you may never show exactly what had been achieved. So that part was winter always insisted certain things had been done. He knew a lot about development and how to achieve it, what type of printing he wanted, and there was this that was part of his life. Right?
Speaker 1 40:00
What was your opinion of the film laboratory at shepherds, Bucha and Bill goldston's work? Well,
Speaker 2 40:07
they all gave me time very hard to please and develop a very good standard. I thought they did extremely Yes, really, I had so many different cameraman of different stars working there, they somehow work very well together,
Speaker 1 40:27
very well indeed. I think the show prints were
Speaker 2 40:31
when you see now some the audience, it's quite remarkable what they achieved absolutely
Speaker 1 40:41
well, the impression I get of Crump in 1933 is of a rather gentle, withdrawn man, but that was partly the language barrier, yes, totally dedicated to his work, absolutely right, and a stylist when, since you were his, I'm not sure what the word is. His co language speaker, and he's interpreted to some extent. What other things did you talk about, anything at all, other than the film at hand? Well,
Speaker 2 41:16
it was mainly he actually loved music, great music, lover, yes, and any particular composers, via minister and also, like Strauss music and Mozart and Beethoven and all great composers were part, see, We appreciated that
Speaker 1 41:39
in those days, how did one appreciate music, concerts or grammar?
Speaker 2 41:45
He used to go to certain concert Albert Hall, and he went to the opera sometimes and but I think he was so occupied with the work he had to do, there was so little time available for him to do the things he wanted to do. Because when you work on the firm, is hard going. You see it takes a lot out of you, physically as well and mentally.
Speaker 1 42:12
Oh yes, yes, yes, if only the time one has to get up in the morning.
Speaker 2 42:17
Oh yes. And then again, old problem says, you know, certain things can go wrong, which have nothing at all to do oneself, you know. And
Speaker 1 42:26
did you ever see him lose his tempo? No, never. He is
Speaker 2 42:30
a very quiet person, unassuming. How
Speaker 1 42:34
did he express anger or rage or frustration?
Speaker 2 42:38
He just walked away and just looked unhappy. And I often used to go up to the Guinness, everything we can do. So no, urban is this is not a good scene. He doesn't. Wasn't very happy with that way. It's been arranged. You see if, when you create an artist, you go for the very best roof. Here is the best if you see somebody, you have to comedy sometimes, but the director may not be sympathetic, or should be a sympathetic it's hurtful, but you know, you're not presenting the very best you can do. And being brought up on the continent where the camera man was a very just as important as a director. Many respects, even more important because he created so much for the director. He's got to get it on to film absolutely so very well talk and meeting so this and this and that he had to put on the screen,
Speaker 1 43:34
right. But he and Mendez got along well together. Oh yes,
Speaker 2 43:38
I mean lotha, having this sense of human light and appreciation that it was great on artists. They got on very well together. You know, it was a very happy Association. And, you know, in long run it, they were on a very friendly basis.
Speaker 1 43:59
How about, sorry, very friendly, right? How about COVID?
Speaker 2 44:03
Did Connie white? He knew a lot about lighting, you see for himself, yes, presumably, yes. He used to have a mirror in front when he got the position for where he was set to and he looked at that, he said, he called over the Latin cow man, very private. He said that was that was with CO Ranch, another film and cat. Hope you do mind me saying this. I had a late night. Last night. I had made love to my so and so, and I'm afraid I'm not quite as Can you please lower the key light little bit? So he said, Yes, pause if you feel so you took it down a little bit more and because then the shadows and everything was not so predominant, he didn't realize actually the camera diffusion and the filler lights and all that, but he knew a lot about. That, but he did it all in a very charming manner. He was another continental who had a great personality, knew a lot about film making. See people on the counter were bought up, not just for one thing. They knew the general ideas and the well.
Speaker 1 45:20
He'd been doing it since he was, what, 19. It's a
Speaker 2 45:23
great love of the profession. He's
Speaker 1 45:27
my favorite actor of all time. I you know, He's so charismatic on screen. I saw him yesterday in the thief of Baghdad again, and he's absolutely marvelous. He just commands the screen
Speaker 2 45:38
Absolutely I mean, when he got on a set and he he also had a great sense of humor with that. He wasn't just heavy along with great punish. You know, I liked him.
Speaker 1 45:49
I remember Wolfgang Wilhelm telling lots of stories about Coney white. Anyway, we're wondering, yes, what else about crime, I was going to ask you we've covered the labs. We've covered basically his technique, relationships with the crew
Speaker 2 46:10
and faith. Friendly person, right? Very friendly jumper,
Speaker 1 46:15
this terrible barrier of not being able to express himself in English, no
Unknown Speaker 46:19
I mean only in your basic words. You.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Speaker 1 0:01
I was, No, I'm fine. Thank you, right. Okay, I find this country.
Unknown Speaker 0:08
We just overlap that.
Speaker 1 0:14
Oh, god, yeah, that was very lucky to be able to converse with him and cry now from him the things which he had a mind, and he was such a sincere, marvelous person. Was
Roy Fowler 0:30
he a reader? Did he have favorite authors or books?
Speaker 1 0:33
I'm not aware of that, because we talk mostly about the film. You see a conversation was vague. Of course, it had be done, and the day was never long enough.
Roy Fowler 0:42
There wasn't really a great difference in age between you. You were 22 and he was 33 Sony, 11 years worked. Did that seem a lot then? But he,
Speaker 1 0:52
when you saw the photograph, I think I looked much younger, and he looked more even you see in a corner. See I was behind the camera. More hair than this is 39 isn't it? Yes, yes, yes, yes, he's got more hair than you have. Yes, we'll have to have this copied if we can.
Unknown Speaker 1:15
Yes, oh no, no.
Speaker 1 1:16
I lost so many photographs, which I gave to these people who wanted to see unfortunately,
Roy Fowler 1:24
I'll ask the BFI to do it now. Very good about looking after things. I've never heard that they've lost anything. So really, a man who was totally concentrated on his work. Do you know? You know what his relationships were with the studio brass, either with the Austrians or with Mickey Baldwin? I
Speaker 1 1:48
think they liked him very much because of being such a great artist and his work on the screen every day, one great appreciation and respect. And you see when you deal with artists like that, who are they? Easy, many respects, it wasn't temperamental, because very serious type of person in
Roy Fowler 2:11
terms of speed, how, what? What? What pace did he work out? But I
Speaker 1 2:18
thought, considering he had pain, he was reasonably fast. I mean, it wasn't slow because in those days, you weren't allowed just to play around. There was a schedule and, you know, people want to get things moving. And you know, it's he was reasonably fast. Barely people see it was slow. It appeared slow, but it wasn't because you used to get quite a number of setups in a day. And he used to plan everything in advance. You see,
Speaker 2 2:46
everything was planned. He had come in in the morning knowing what he was going to do, exactly
Speaker 1 2:51
this and this and this. He was there was the great thing I learned from from the continental state plan their work. They knew exactly what they want to achieve. They communicated with the people concerned, the art department, their chief leadership, the camel camel crew. Everything was they always ready. All prepared. Yes. Thought out.
Speaker 2 3:18
How did he get along with his gaffers very well
Speaker 1 3:22
indeed. I mean, often had to. He didn't quite explain. So I could tell he meant so and so. He meant the Coronavirus means this sort of effect. Mainly, everybody caught on, you see, and they had a jargon of their own. But once they knew they they always remember this.
Roy Fowler 3:44
Now, Berlin was your hometown, right? Yes, and Berlin and Gunther is from Vienna, yes. So what was the the Germans viewpoint of the Austrian,
Speaker 1 3:56
as you know, the Austen are more, in my opinion, more sophisticated than the German, if you compare the two races and all they both speak German. The Vietnamese, for instance, had more charm, more cultured, in many respects, as the Berliner was more tougher, passion, more disciplined, more efficient, in some ways, mind you only some ways, but harsher and little Erwin at times, Viennese had that charm, the more intelligent and the Viennese used to when they talked about the Germans, used to call them Sol prices, which means pig passions, because they Were not so well mannered as the Viennese were, see the Austrians, in my opinion, and my father was came from Vienna. My mother came from Strasbourg. So I have a French, German, Austrian connection. I can assure you that the Germans. Are not as subtle as the Viennese. I think that Vietnamese had a charm, that the greatness of the country used to be the Austin Hungarian empire, my opinion, was something very special. There were so many different nationalities living in that country. There was no medical harassment. They're all on equal standing. When look at some Viennese orchestras, many of them, the musicians, come from from Czechoslovakia. They have Czech names. They've been there for centuries. You have international togetherness. Ufa studios had something similar in a way. They also had international background. Directors, cameraman from Vienna, from Czechoslovakia, from Poland, from England. You know that they had a very international outlook, so there was a nearest. Ufa studios had a nearest, you might see, cosmopolitan flavor, and they had that great class and tradition which they developed, having geniuses like Fritz Lang and many other great
Unknown Speaker 6:14
moona, I think
Speaker 1 6:17
was the great director, I found you mentioned more now, when I sided, I wanted to try to get a film business. I was introduced because I was a painter in my young days, and my friend was a nephew of more now, he showed him my paintings. I met more now, and he said he was very impressed. Would I like to come with him? Start as his assistant on taboo he was going off. My father discovered that he was homosexual. I was not allowed to work, which was very sad, because he was wonderful director, and his his production designer office, Gliese, who I knew also very well, was also homo Sasha, in a way, but they were lovely people. I can't explain to you, but my father was adamant that I shouldn't, shouldn't, in my young years, be perhaps contaminate something
Speaker 2 7:22
you didn't want, interfering parents, I know
Speaker 1 7:25
that's why I went for wanting. And I was introduced to her, he was made just the opposite tough. Well,
Roy Fowler 7:37
I saw Coppola's Dracula the other day, and I tell you, Nosferatu made in 1922 has it beaten hands down, an infinitely better picture. Again, we're wondering, if there's so many marvelous things to talk about, then we certainly, I think, through with juice. Use you next. Worked with him on a much smaller picture. You said, little friend. But again,
Speaker 1 8:05
as I mentioned to the director, yes,
Roy Fowler 8:09
on the continent, right? We ought to have your memories of theater,
Speaker 1 8:13
yes, and he was a Vienna. They his angels. Atrocious. He had but he had a personal assistant who could translate things in more acceptable English way,
Roy Fowler 8:26
right? Was that issue wood? I do, do you remember was issue wood on that picture may
Speaker 1 8:32
have been, I can't remember that. I know there was a very common young lady. She always looked after him. And there was a, there was a very nice atmosphere.
Roy Fowler 8:41
He was here on his own. Was he his salco was presumably in the States, but I think
Speaker 1 8:47
so that time, I can't remember anyone else accepted he and his assistant. And of course,
Roy Fowler 8:53
well, sorry, I was going to say, is little friend, possibly the picture that Christopher Isherwood is writing about in Prato. Is it Prato violet? Would you say, or would you call it Prater violet? I never know how it's intended to be pronounced. Just
Speaker 1 9:08
for a minute. I couldn't give you that tourist position there, because at that time when it was made, Noel film was considered a new comer, and he directed her with great style. I thought she could have been an international star. Always amazed me why she
Speaker 2 9:34
wasn't sorry. Who was this? Noel? Noel films,
Speaker 1 9:37
she played a leading, partial, very young lady, yes. Delightful
Roy Fowler 9:41
lady, didn't she marry and retire from work? Must
Speaker 1 9:44
have been Yes, because she's still alive. I think she must be because she was great, really, in that direction. Have so much. You see, the director created so much in those days, not just saying what? He said this, he showed up a certain quietly and encouraged her. See this were the Continentals. They communicate, in my opinion, far better than most. The English grow more sarcastic. Michael Powell would be very sarcastic. Even David Lean would be quite ruthless with his artists. They were not ruthless, and Hitchcock
Unknown Speaker 10:23
called them cattle. But you
Speaker 1 10:28
see, they had a sort of inner warmth. You can't explain that. It's also charm. Well,
Roy Fowler 10:38
they also had a different background, because they were fertile as a poet as well as a dramatist as well as a stage director, wasn't he? So
Speaker 1 10:51
you don't realize most people in any outbridge famously, do not compare in that way. I hope you don't mind me saying that Noel totally objective. That's a partnership education and culture. I mean, Noel, think that's true. You either know it or you don't.
Roy Fowler 11:11
Yes. I think there are two factors there. On the one hand, is what you want to do. And David Lean, for example, found his metier in the cutting room, first of all, and he'd never had the experience of being an actor or working with actors, and that's true of Hitchcock, who was an art director, in essence,
Speaker 1 11:32
I should say, talking David Lean. I worked with David Lean when he was editor on the film spies of the air, and I was camera boys. We got on very well together at that time, was early in his career, and he was very ambitious person and a very brilliant editor. But David, I mean, we know is, has a class of his own, in my opinion, perhaps the best British director, Noel Hitchcock of all time and Carol Reed was Alfred Loews three together. Yes, then I would bring in Michael Powell and Pressburger, but Powell without Pressburger would never be in anywhere. Absolutely. That's the sort of background for police people.
Roy Fowler 12:21
They are the master craftsman as artists, aren't they? Then they're not really true artists, in a sense, they're marvelous with the means, yes, but there isn't that much of a statement there.
Speaker 1 12:34
See, they've alike very much on other people, contributing for them, really, as also German, famously, everybody that they worked themselves motivated, motivated themselves. Didn't have other people to show them how to do it. They did that. They were in charge, you know, really and of everything
Roy Fowler 12:54
so futile. Strength as a director was his ability to work with actors, to get the best out of actors. Was he good, as we say, on script? Did he have a sense of story that
Speaker 1 13:07
it all seemed to fit beautifully together. Everything had a nice flow. There was a nice atmosphere on the floor. We handed everything, and there weren't any serious problems, you see, right? I mean, always something which needs readjusting. No,
Roy Fowler 13:24
did you also serve as his interpreter? Or he had his own that time?
Speaker 1 13:28
You know, as things went along, occasionally, I, you know, interpret it always see, because gent, even, despite being in it, sometime he couldn't remember the English. How do you explain an English way? So I said it meant so and so on this light to Chief electrician, or will you please put in a half diffusion on this side? He couldn't quite master the English language, and in what he called a film way of explaining things. And so I learned enormously from all ignite in camera, and I was assistant to an operator, mostly coming from the continent, and even one came from Jackson bargain, like Ian starlis, he also spoke very little English. So the moment they all heard about me and Ginder camp many other cameras you must get Erwin. He's marvelous, not for not only as a system, but you be able to translate and explain to people what you have in mind. And help me a lot. Also, when they discussing with the director, many times, Ginder camp became very annoyed for us on light of fire with with Brian Desmond Hurst, who was typically Irish, always used to take the Michi out of people, and for some reason, Denter didn't like him. He didn't have much respect for him. So when were they discussing a scene he. Enter, said to me, you tell him, it's absolutely rubbish. What we have in mind. I'm not going to even think of doing this. So I thought, I better not see it exactly. So I said to the translation, to Brian. Said, Brian, winter thinks that if we can do this and this and that it would enhance the scene more. Oh, I like that. So then I translated to Gilda singer. He fears that your idea, he likes it very much indeed, and he would like you to go ahead with that, because he thinks it's tremendous, because it wasn't exactly what there was. Were saying about each other, but the opposite. And I didn't want to see any trouble. See, when you don't understand a language, well, you can always jump the wrong way. Oh, absolutely.
Unknown Speaker 15:55
That's where tragedy
Speaker 1 15:57
comes in. I want to be a peacemaker. I loved the film, I didn't want
Roy Fowler 16:02
to see any trouble. Your diplomatic skills. Well,
Speaker 1 16:05
what brought up my my father being Vietnamese here, it's okay. It's okay.
Roy Fowler 16:14
The earphones cut out for a moment, but it's okay. We're rolling sorry. Your father
Speaker 1 16:19
said, Well, try to be tactful about everything in life, whatever you achieve, be firm, be efficient, but you must always be tactful. Don't be as crude as the Germans are vulgar, because this doesn't it's the wrong way of looking at life, you see. So you just trying to be subtle about things. So when I saw people being conflict, I was trying to make things go the way it should do. I like to see it going.
Roy Fowler 16:53
Didn't on little friend. He Crump and theater got along the
Speaker 1 17:01
same language, and so therefore there weren't any problems for anything. They liked each other very much. They had a great rapport. And Goon to his place to work with, somebody can speak directly to stylistically.
Roy Fowler 17:15
Was his work different that you it
Speaker 1 17:18
was slightly different, but still beautiful. It was the way it was paint. It was like a painting. In my opinion. It's outstanding in may not receive recognition here, but I thought his work was outstanding. So
Roy Fowler 17:32
it's what texture in the frame. It
Speaker 1 17:36
had a beauty of the star of its own. It's so
Roy Fowler 17:40
I've seen juice use. I haven't seen little friend. Now, incidentally, while we're talking about this of the films of his that you're aware of, I'm not sure what they're going to be running in the retrospective. The only one they've told me about is blossom time. But which of his films would you recommend to be screened? Gun to come. Gun to come.
Speaker 1 18:03
Well, on the night of death, because I was camera operator on that, because I had a nice, nice dog, juiciest, course it has, was a very big epic. The biggest, unfortunately, was not a financial success. And I caught little friend. I thought it was a classic little firm, and also, of course, having a British artist who really was on a threshold getting somewhere. And it was always to me, very sad the firm didn't help her, because she deserved enormous success.
Roy Fowler 18:40
I don't think she failed. I think she gave it up. That's my impression. I think she married someone, and that was that. Well,
Speaker 1 18:47
you know how it is in the film business if you haven't got the right contact sometimes, or you haven't got the right agent, she
Unknown Speaker 18:53
was very successful,
Speaker 1 18:56
but she deserved, but not to be something very important, really. I thought, Well,
Roy Fowler 19:02
as I say, I think she gave it up voluntarily. But anyway, we mustn't there
Unknown Speaker 19:07
have been a private life. You can't tell
Roy Fowler 19:09
indeed. So anything specific that comes to mind on little friend only
Speaker 1 19:17
was delightful to work on because the rapport between director and camera man was all the time, just perfect, in a way. So it was a happy film. Oh, absolutely. It went all along. Anyone always look forward to next day? You know, it's you always know when the pictures, I mean, you can't wait until you start. That makes the change. And you're very sad when it's all finished, when a last shot comes in, and you feel like you know, you know, if it feels terribly sad when you
Roy Fowler 19:49
enjoy something, do you have any idea what they were paying him? Gomer, British,
Speaker 1 19:55
well, in those days, I think it was a region of 100 Pounds a week, or something like that, which we consider quite enormous. Yeah, you know, I think was around that figure, because when I worked with starlish A few years later, he received also 100 pounds a week.
Unknown Speaker 20:13
Was that a VIP or
Speaker 1 20:16
kneeling I worked with young stars on whom the Gods love. Ah, yes, Basil Dean, right? When we went to Austria, yes, I spoke at the end and shot mostly locations there, right?
Roy Fowler 20:27
Okay, so there was never any thought that, because he was foreign and slightly lost in this country, that he would be paid less, no
Speaker 1 20:39
financially. It did they were right. They did. They were because they
Unknown Speaker 20:43
were respected as artists.
Speaker 1 20:45
You picked on somebody of great class that deserve to be paid next time.
Roy Fowler 20:51
I'm glad, I'm glad that's your next encounter. Then with him was, was then on night of the fire, by which time you've become an operator? Yes, when
Speaker 1 21:02
I worked on Nightwood fire, he had, you know, he told me that he was going to make the film, that's it. Meantime, I become co operator. Said, Mom is Erwin. You come with me. You look after me, because I need you on this
Roy Fowler 21:15
phone. Did you stay in touch with him as a friend? Or did
Speaker 1 21:19
you because I used to go off the location. He knew, when you work on films, you can't always communicate with everybody in you. I knew he was in London. I had a call from him, met him, and he said he was going to make that film with Brian Desmond Hurst. He wasn't convinced he was right. So directly, should work with but the same time, the subject matter sounded fascinating. And if I could, I met the producer, Chambly, was also from the continent. Yes,
Roy Fowler 21:48
he's on the list, isn't it?
Unknown Speaker 21:52
Joseph, sure, right? And yes, producing
Roy Fowler 21:57
that was made at denim, yes, in what 38 was it? Yes,
Speaker 1 22:02
38 I can't remember. I lost anyway. It's on 3839 we could look it up, yes. And the studios were just short while in existence. And as you know it, studio, which couldn't always be filled by quarter, and you know, it's that time. Sean blue being, I think he was also hung here in
Unknown Speaker 22:27
the yes that he's on, he's on the list.
Speaker 1 22:30
He was all for the quarter this record. It's so much wonderful work for our industry here. Wish we had another quarter today. Well, indeed, I wish
Roy Fowler 22:41
we did. We'll come on to the quarters and the producers and the others. Any, any, how does one say? Change in Crump now a night of the fire.
Speaker 1 22:55
Well after that, I sort of lost contact with him, because I was that time very busy on many things happening. And then when the war started, I also got my first break in lighting, 19 4040, I think, just a little bit after, after year or so, after I worked with him. And many people said it's about time I lighten it and you my background with all the Continentals on the top Hollywood camera man. So I managed to get my first lighting on the lady from Lisbon hits his cot, Leslie hiscot and Elizabeth hiscot, his wife was always with him on the set. It was my first lighting job, and then the next one was silver fleet.
Roy Fowler 23:54
Well, I must remind you, we've covered your career in great detail, so we weren't we must. We must stay with the Austrians for the moment. On night of the fire, he's really the same old cramp, yes, absolutely.
Speaker 1 24:09
He just always devoted everything. He always Powell out the very best. He was a wonderful way. His compositions were always marked, designing the setup.
Roy Fowler 24:27
You say, he had more or less contempt for Brian Desmond Hurst, the
Speaker 1 24:32
perspective enough, really, as a director, he thought he was more of a clown, comedian, and he didn't have much talent, because he could never communicate about anything, and Brian couldn't tell so
Roy Fowler 24:46
his English never really improved to that to that
Speaker 1 24:50
extent, very much. You see, it's there are some people who just do not take seen about too many people from the continent he met. So they always. Converse, and also French.
Roy Fowler 25:03
When war came along, was he interned, I
Speaker 1 25:08
can't remember. Somehow he disappeared from a scene. I think he went over to Paris. I remember correctly after we worked with him,
Unknown Speaker 25:20
that time, before the war.
Speaker 1 25:23
I think he went to France at that time, because he very well known on the continent. And the French firm was in those days were quite, you know, they always wanted creative people, and they themselves had creative people like Rene Claire and so on, you know. And George parent you know, came over in a time for quarter. So there was always that link with France as well. But if it hadn't been followed sound coming into the film industry over would have heard that possession easily.
Roy Fowler 25:58
I'm sure that's true. Yes, right. Well, he seems to have died around 1950 51 which makes his death at a very early age, 50 or 5152 but you've no knowledge of his last years. No, I loved it. I
Speaker 1 26:17
didn't somehow, you know, it's like a roundabout film making you get on something that suddenly you find you're on a different world
Roy Fowler 26:27
people. You're also you're also lighting yourself at this point, so for
Speaker 1 26:33
some years, but it means you're
Roy Fowler 26:37
not working with other lighting cameras. No,
Speaker 1 26:40
I was very lucky to get that legacy and being very young. And also I like documentaries, which gave me a great help, which I mentioned some time ago. We've, yes,
Roy Fowler 26:53
we've done all that. So I think then we can end with Crump at that point. Nothing else to say
Speaker 1 27:02
about I thought he was a great inspiration from my point of view.
Roy Fowler 27:06
Now we see one of your most important mentors. Would you say
Speaker 1 27:11
he and cut Courant those two? Why do Yes, young
Roy Fowler 27:16
ish, why don't we move on to coward courant? Now then, but I
Speaker 1 27:20
only worked with coward once, on a man who knew too much, and you which he photographed,
Roy Fowler 27:26
and you were what operating by this time, or camera
Speaker 1 27:30
assistant camera system. And that was 1933 I think was 1933
Unknown Speaker 27:38
or 34 This was also at shepherd's
Speaker 1 27:40
Bucha. Bucha, in those days old, you might say the most important films were made at cooperation. And many knew too much was. Hitch is, you know, very important film, which we knew was turned out to be a classic. And Peter Long, who I met earlier at Noel barbersburg Bucha studios, M he was the main principal artist. He also played one of the principal roles on that one, and he was another marvelous artist, in a way, but sort of should never go to Hollywood because the Americans didn't appreciate his staff. You're
Roy Fowler 28:29
talking of Warner. Well, let's stay with the with other. You know, otherwise we can talk for days about these people to
Speaker 1 28:39
me a cutter, and was not only a great artist, but also great technician. His technique was even perhaps slightly wider and feel than it comes, in a way. And he combined in his light. He used gauze and diffusion glass together as a combination. And his photography was really tremendous. I mean, delighting the way he presented the story. And he was more of a debonair type of person. He was, perhaps looks more smarter in his appearance, and he had a sort of great panache on the floor. And he was really a Master who was when he was lighting, he was like conducting orchestra, and he was little show in a way, but same time, he deserved to be a show, because he had that quality, yes, and he presented everything in such a way that people and thought when he saw him lighting. And it was the light watching him. The thing is, I found that when he started lighting, got some marvelous effects. Then suddenly he would change the whole star. And then after 20 minutes, was something different. So I went up to him. I was only assistant. I said. And tell me, why did you change what you started to my eye, because he used to say to him before we start, if ever you see Erwin come to me, tell me what you thought, because he knew I was very interested in light inside of even being only camera session, I said, Why did you change that? Cut? It looked terrific. I said, it's very nice as you got now. But to me, that was fine. See, what do you think? So, yes, I said, so he tried to get back to what he had before. Never achieved it. In my opinion, whatever he started with which he very always start to make changes. We never saw his best work. We stood wonderful work. So I thought to myself, if I ever get a chance, ever to light, use your first idea. Stick to that. What's
Roy Fowler 30:55
the basis of that? Do you think that's instinctive, rather than poop? He would over polish, trying to
Speaker 1 31:03
improve another way, another way. In my opinion, that's only one way, which is the best way. Can
Roy Fowler 31:09
you give an example of what he might do? What would it be? A matter of a question of more light, less light, changing unit, changing diffusion, being
Speaker 1 31:19
cost light, he suddenly make it a front light and glucose light was in a way he got the shadows and the way he got the effects. Yes, looking through the camera, looks don't look like a marvelous painting. And with the diffusions, he had his work together, it just made look tremendous. But he made he was in his character, trying to aim higher and higher, but not realizing that somehow what he achieved was, in my opinion, mind, you only didn't look quite the same, you know. So they always remember that, for goodness sake, if you get a chance, in light, if you like something first, stick to that. Make your adjustments more is but the principal style, hold on to it, because the first impression is the best, right? That's my humble opinion. Many people disagree with that.
Roy Fowler 32:16
Well, I suppose it varies, doesn't it, within with individuals, but if an instinctive artist, I would have thought the first thing.
Speaker 1 32:28
Even being an assistant, I was so fascinated with lighting and photography, and I loved it, and it's was my life to me, it's something
Roy Fowler 32:38
so you were observing all the time. Absolutely, was he an easy man to work with you, and he got along. Obviously, there
Speaker 1 32:50
was no there weren't any mind you. It certainly could be quite difficult, but it was only difficult, but people would kind of be awkward. He believed that his work was important to himself and the staff around they were supposed to assist him. He was the boss, you see, anyone in between the respect which he was and the same time there was control on the floor, people were there to work, not to stand, talk about football and other things and having union meetings. You know, that was just important. The film was most important thing. How
Roy Fowler 33:28
about his relationship with Hitchcock?
Speaker 1 33:31
He got on very well together, because Hitchcock respected him enormously. He always respected people who are great artists. His only people were not quite up to think he would treat a certain but he didn't respect his artists enough at times.
Roy Fowler 33:50
He didn't play any practical jokes on
Speaker 1 33:55
he was trying to work get the thing done in efficient time, quickly, so he had plenty time to rehearse this part.
Unknown Speaker 34:01
Did current work quickly, slowly or
Speaker 1 34:06
reasonable speed? Yes, I believe, see, everything was the confidence but thought out to do the homework. Yes, everything was thought out.
Roy Fowler 34:16
Well, you said that he would change his from his first ideas, I wondered how much time that would lose.
Speaker 1 34:23
Well, he lost, in my opinion, at least half the time, because twice as fast if he had left alone. But he just couldn't leave the lonely scene try another way. He didn't do it every time, but many of the important scenes, I thought, we never saw the real cut work.
Roy Fowler 34:44
Now again, would he have worked with lots of small units or
Speaker 1 34:49
German style? But he was had what I call sort of French interpretation as well, because the French you. And he had a certain sophistication in lighting too. It's a nice star. It was like, you know how you can explain it. It had elegance about it, you know, and quality, which, you know, when you look through the camera, it just stood out, and it was that's nice to see it and achieved without any great dramatic effects. You see, didn't saw a tantrum. We just said, try this and this and that. He was always very nice with charge and electrician. And you know, they always, you know, they had great harmony together, and he had great respect, because they knew this Nightingale men were really special people. They weren't just hacks who come along there just to bluff. It was all true. Artistic interpretation
Roy Fowler 36:00
was that the one film that you worked with him on?
Speaker 1 36:02
Yes, the only one. That was the only one, unfortunately, because I forget now what happened after that. I was drifting then to Erwin after
Roy Fowler 36:12
that, Was he under contract at the bush or was he freelance? No, he
Speaker 1 36:16
freelance. Most of the people freelanced and who came to go British, because that time the program was quite a wonderful program. I mean, it's we had American cameraman that too, Charlotte anger. I was a spy. I worked on that too, on evergreen. I worked on that too, which Victor saber directed, and chemical booms. American and photograph that Erwin,
Roy Fowler 36:46
forgive me, but you know, it's the Austro Hungarians. Yeah. So with Kurt Courant, is there anything that you want to add to what we
Speaker 1 36:58
didn't work more often with him, because I found him such a nice person, and makes such a difference when you can work with nice people. And many people may have found him awkward, I never found him awkward. He was just a perfectionist. Be targeted. Didn't like he was very straightforward by say, I don't think that's very good, you know, and whatever it was, and people often presented that what you can what can you say?
Unknown Speaker 37:27
No, I'm on your side. Got to be serious about
Speaker 1 37:32
it. It's a serious business. If you don't measure up, you lose your position, just like that. Used to say, we lived from day to day. Russia is no good. I'd be fired. I knew that.
Roy Fowler 37:46
When did he go to the States, before the war,
Speaker 1 37:50
just before the war, and the tragic thing was, the union wouldn't accept him. I believe he had become a still photographer at the man of his great standing, couldn't get the AC in those days were very hard. Well,
Roy Fowler 38:08
it was IA, what we call Yahtzee, yes, the AOC is just
Speaker 1 38:15
they were that time. They didn't want any farmers the market camel man put up a complete blockage. You know more, that's it. Founders here. It's,
Roy Fowler 38:25
it's still, is very difficult on the west coast for for much easier now, well, it's easier, I wouldn't say it's that much easier. It's, it's much, much easier in New York, where Boris Kaufman, for example, one of the great cameramen. Yes, could never work on the West Coast. He only could work in ridiculous, ridiculous. Sadly
Speaker 1 38:48
to think the man of eight, great quantity was never allowed to
Roy Fowler 38:52
work there. Yes, well, he made Monsieur verdu. I don't know what else he made, but he worked with Chaplin on Monsieur verdu.
Speaker 1 39:00
He said, I lost touch afterwards. See when you that tower was very lucky. Was very busy going from one thing or the other. Then it all started afterwards. And so many things happening, as you know,
Roy Fowler 39:14
would that bring us, then to perhaps youngish,
Speaker 1 39:17
young stalish, young starlish, as you came from Prague, he heard I'd work with all the other cameras. So when he before he arrived in London, he dropped me a line the city's coming to London to work with dasar Dean on on the story called whom the gods loved. Life of Mozart, he would be lighted if I could be available for him. And he heard I was camp operator. He did the camp told him,
Speaker 1 39:52
among me that time, and that was 1935 I think. 1935, when young stars came to London, I met basildine with him. He's he no English whatsoever. He was a jovel check from Park, rotund John. I
Roy Fowler 40:19
say rotund. Who was was he? Was
Speaker 1 40:22
he fetish? He was quite. I have some photographs of him in this book if you want to see them. Well,
Roy Fowler 40:28
yes, we won't stop for it now, because we can't get the photographs undertake. He
Speaker 1 40:33
was a, he had was that called a very light, light hearted person, charming, friendly, highly efficient, quite sophisticated, with Outlook and a great salesman too. Knew how to put things over. And in my opinion, he was clever in many respects the way he presented himself. Then Peter got Goon, and because he had that slight Austen panache, you know, as you know, Prague had always had with Austria, but closely there, very similar in many respects, but also they gay in a way, and great sense of humor, that was his great thing as well. And he was tremendously fast. He knew exactly how to light a set. Never changed his mind. That's it, told chief electrician that for that, that for that, that, for that, put it on there, fine. Okay, pre planned, or would he walk on to a certain plan, everything? He lay everything out before you start lighting it. They have a set. He pulled together this and this and that out there, this and that through window, boom. And he marked everything off on the floor so they know exactly where to put every lap, really. But he did everything with great panache and great flair and a great sense of humor. He was a lovable character and easygoing person. And the director, Basile Dean was just the opposite, dual tough head of the studio, managing directors work and the producer, director, tough man, much hated, unfortunately, very unfortunate, then I got on very well with him, because I wouldn't allow him to out. Beat me because, obviously he knew that I was very vital to him, that as Judge, Dallas couldn't speak much English. You had to have somebody who could put the conversation to interpret again. So besides being operator, I also spent part of the time to discuss scenes with him.
Roy Fowler 42:48
So stylish. Her German is a native tongue, rather and check, check,
Speaker 1 42:54
but meaning German and Czech, the other two languages is
Speaker 2 42:57
stylish. A German name, no, it's a check,
Speaker 1 43:02
typical check. He was more, as I said, not, not partial, you know, just the opposite. But
Roy Fowler 43:09
they were bilingual then,
Speaker 1 43:13
oh yes, they were all bilingual there, because in a film business, they had to be bilingual because they worked also in Germany. And, yes, you know. And so it was also part of his upbringing. Don't forget, Czechoslovakia used to be called Bohemia, part of the Austin Hungarian empire for 700 years. He only became independent 1919, I think, after the First World War, when suddenly Czechoslovakia was created,
Roy Fowler 43:42
will come. Coming towards you. I think, since we're here, we might as well flip the tape
Erwin Hillier at his house, and the subject is going to be the Austro Hungarian film emigration and the influence it had on people in this country. So Right? Erwin, how do you think we should progress? Shall we just go? Why don't we discuss the major cameramen first, and then we'll go down the more generalist. I
Speaker 1 44:23
The camp. I worked with him three times, first time as camera assistant on juices, little friend that was 1933 and then many years later on about 1939 or 40 when I was camp operator, I worked in a Dennis due to his on the night of the fire which Brian Desmond Hurst directed. Terence Young was personal assistant. I think he just came out of the Foreign Office as his very first firm, and I. And Richardson worked, you know, paid a leading part and made, I think, we shot in 10 weeks at Denham studios. And then after that, I carried on with other Noel Martin, Cara man, for instance, before that, I had on your list, for instance,
Roy Fowler 45:25
well, why don't we stick with Gunther Crump
Speaker 1 45:29
had, in my opinion, was a very creative artist, one of the cleverest at that time I worked with who was more like a professor, a very shy person. His English was very limited, and my great help was be able to converse in both languages and knowing the translation English, what it meant in from a firm point of view,
Roy Fowler 45:53
this was on juice use, yes. Do you know how long before he had arrived in this country? Do you know any of the biographical details about
Speaker 1 46:02
him? I met him in 1933 right that time, I think, may have been juice use. First was
Roy Fowler 46:10
he permanently on staff at Shepherd.
Speaker 1 46:12
He had a sort of contact over, I think, two or three years, something like that. They were not long term contracts.
Roy Fowler 46:20
Do you know where he'd worked, in Germany or Vienna.
Speaker 1 46:23
Him also worked in unfa Studios and also in Vienna. You know because at that time, you know, most of the continental people of great standing, they fluctuate from Ufa studios, filming in Vienna, filming in France, you know, because being so close together, but Ufa, at that time, was the big, might say the number one in Europe. No doubt about it, because at Ufa studios, you have the greatest talent, in my opinion, of all time.
Roy Fowler 46:58
You're talking now, of the silent days, or the early sound
Speaker 1 47:02
even towards the later part of silent days, if you had been for the talkies, which came in in 1929 I remember correctly Ronda 2930 because M had sound, as you know, and it was very impressive to suddenly have important friend and sound as a German language, had a limited, you might say, clearance of the word that when the talks came in, UVA lost its position because most of the top people emigrated to America and came over here as well during the camp and youngster and under many other outstanding lighting came and also came to London because they heard about England. They liked they must the atmosphere here and the English character somehow.
Roy Fowler 47:59
Are you saying it was less the Hitler regime that was before Hitler, was before Hitler, before Hitler. So it was really to get work, was it?
Speaker 1 48:08
Yes. I mean, at that time, as you know, firms always be international. Ufa studios had the international stars, people from all different countries who worked there, because being the sort of might say, Mecca that time of film making, and also having those qualities which attracted people, and there were some wonderful people working there,
Roy Fowler 48:37
yes, so indeed, but and British films by comparison, were largely terrible at that stage.
Speaker 1 48:44
Noel division, unfortunately, was only VIP who unfortunately did not measure up to obey much they were trying to be, you know, ambitious, but it didn't quite come off well somehow. Caesar leadership, in my opinion, is always the vital element. Without that,
Roy Fowler 49:03
the breadth of vision is what's important.
Speaker 1 49:07
When I went to Austria, the Goldman British picture Corporation, the Austrian brothers were then in charge. Are also foreigners who believe very much that should be an important feminist. So they used that studio, bringing over again some they thought at.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Roy Fowler 0:02
It's second tape of the Austro Hungarian series with Erwin, right? So what Waston is interests as well as making film. Was he an intellectual, or was it wine, women and so on? No,
Speaker 1 0:18
he had an appreciation of the classics, because, as you know, we made the store of Mozart, whom the Gods love, and we went on location to start sport in Vienna started working elite studios afterwards. And he was, he liked football. He was very interested in that. He was more interested in the athletics and being a sort of outgoing person, but the same time, he was a brilliant technician, clever, very fast, perhaps faster than any other lighting camera I worked with, because he knew exactly this, this and this and that, and he was very brilliant close up work too, and he got on very well with basildine. Despite basildine Being
Roy Fowler 1:07
How did that operate? He what? He refused to take crap from, from basildine or basal Dean. Knew that he couldn't get away with nonsense.
Speaker 1 1:19
Noel see try to intimidate people, but yeah, so I just held Michael, and I was polite to him. Yes, he couldn't just push me around, and he also knew, if he started ignore me, that young starish wouldn't like it. You see, because young starlich relied very much being with him on the phone, and he also had constantly so basildin, despite his part of ruthless man, at times the unpleasant personality
Roy Fowler 1:51
was times was it mostly directed toward actors
Speaker 1 1:54
generally, rather than the crew that were terrified of him being such An important position too. Don't forget money. But also imagine, like the studio, in his studios, they important man share hold of a company, and you know, it's he was when, for instance, when he arrived studio, the man the gate used to send message to on the floor it was on his way, was standing Moore's attention wait for him to arrive. It was quite unnerving. And I used to be there, of course, I didn't care to about if I worked for him or not. I worked somewhere else. You know, I was very independent those days. And you know, being very young, you know, I wasn't going to be intimidated. I knew if I worked until I can tell man like me cost me so but he was, unfortunately, not a nice person in a way. Maybe was nice privately,
Roy Fowler 2:52
when you were on location, did you take the entire unit from this country, or did they pick up people in Austria? Where
Speaker 1 3:00
we picked up the electricians in Austria, and we only talked chief electrician with us from from London. Mind you, he couldn't, anyhow, say very much to the Austin technician. They right away, could speak youngsters. He knew how to cut so we had mostly the camera crews, camera department, and some the art department. Went with us. Some the first assistant and the accountant, for instance, and people like that. But we used mostly the facilities from Vienna and Salzburg, you know. And was mostly location, but we worked also in tear on show. And born the palace, you know. And there was wonderful sets. Was there built already? Yes, and youngsters are pass masks at night in real interiors. How
Roy Fowler 3:56
easy was it to light an interior such as that? Because obviously you couldn't hammer nails into the wall,
Speaker 1 4:04
floor units. But see the big push you were accustomed to work in places where they had to be civilized behaviorless, civilized manner, so ways and found, always to protect everything, and then Dan do anything wrong, because it was the type of people worked on. The firmware had direct respect for artistic achievements,
Roy Fowler 4:29
but everything was comparatively compared to now, so inefficient. In those days, the units were so heavy and they created so much heat, I would have thought it's very dangerous
Speaker 1 4:39
in somehow, they always managed to place lamps and place also young stars. Wouldn't refuse to lower lamp and stand too near anything. He said, Look, that's way they were. They civilized about yes and they Noel,
Roy Fowler 4:55
how can you compare? How would you compare the Austrian person? Noel of those days, with the comparable British personnel, who was they were better.
Speaker 1 5:04
There was a nice atmosphere, a charming atmosphere in Vienna, and also efficiency without all the big noise. Everything was done in a very smooth and civilized manner. A famous Greek no shouting, none do shouting. Sign language does so. And so it was a nice coordination
Roy Fowler 5:25
of unlike here, here was shouting,
Speaker 1 5:30
you know, and at times, you know, some electrical crews I had, sometimes I was ashamed of them. Really behaved and the damage they did, many times and really interest. I said, Please don't put the lamp too close that have something behind her. That's alright, mate. I said, Noel, not all right. And then I was consider being difficult sister, things to be done in a civilized manner. And I was horns. He must know my mouth. This is when you asked me what difference it is, hell of a difference, really. I hate to say that I agree
Roy Fowler 6:09
with clearly, it hasn't changed entirely. Either it's sad,
Speaker 1 6:13
because there's so much quality here. One, there's a wonderful
Roy Fowler 6:18
pin inferiority complexes, I'm afraid. Back to what, what else can be said about him, the way he was, his way of life.
Speaker 1 6:33
It's way of life. He came here, he stayed at Marble art. He had this, you know, this big a flat. And I used to often be invited to them with him or met him over the weekends. And he liked sight seeing London. He loved England very much. Did he have a family? Yes, I believe so. He didn't only his wife came over with him, yes. She also was from Park, yes. And the funny thing was, one of them finished, he was paid in five pound notes, and he had a small attached case. I think was about 5000 pounds, or whatever. I can't remember. It's quite a lot of money. In those days, he had put all the little attache case, and he was so powered taking back those beautiful fibers. He loved the quality of the notes and way he was embossed, and nobody all fibers had big white appearance pieces of paper. It's marvelous. Thank you so much for being such a girlfriend. And I hope when I come back to London, he came back to London for coward on the phone later on, many years later. Oh,
Roy Fowler 7:46
I see. Oh, well, let me get this straight. Then he wasn't actually resident here. He only came for specific Yes.
Speaker 1 7:53
And he was busy on working on the continent a lot. And he was very popular on the continent, being an easy going person, and people liked him. He had a big, pleasant personality. He wasn't dramatic like camp was, and he was just more and more of a Viennese flavor about him.
Unknown Speaker 8:14
Do you know where he was for the war?
Speaker 1 8:18
He vanished. You see, I lost national contact when things you didn't hear what most
Roy Fowler 8:24
people did, but he was on the continent during the war.
Speaker 1 8:27
Absolutely he didn't, I don't think he ever went to the States, because I think he loves Powell very much. You know, Czechs have a certain way about their background. They don't like to transplant themselves. Not
Roy Fowler 8:41
happy times though, to have been in Czechoslovakia or anywhere, they didn't
Speaker 1 8:46
know that Hitler was going to move in. You know what I mean, to be stuck. It was only four years later when the Sudeten business came up. And it was very sad, because I knew Czechoslovakia very well, and I loved the country. Said, lovely country and of music to an iron wonderful composers.
Roy Fowler 9:07
Another Czech cameraman is Otto. Otto Heller. Otto Heller.
Speaker 1 9:12
We became great friends, yes, because when Otto came over to make it film, he heard about my being helped with the camera man, but I never worked with him because at what time was busy on other things, and he called me up. He said, Look, would you have time for the first two or three days to come on the floor to be a sort of moral booster for me and explain to various people, because his English was little patient English movies. So I said, Yes, we delight Otto. So anyhow, we start off the film. I was on the phone for two or three days, and everyone they worked, because Otto was a very lovable creature. I was like a big teddy bear. Everybody liked an enormous appetite, great eater. But. The same time he had that they charming way about him became great, friendly terms, and we used to meet up years later, many times SoHo in the coffee shops, which he frequented on the weekend, were more free, and bez used to join us. Remember the art director, the art director, and he was also in love with a person. And the three of us used to meet up many times. I used to often meet up with Arthur. Years later, when I was lighting camera man in Fauci Spain, he worked on another firm. We say hello to each other. Had dinner together, and he was charming person, and he died years later. He knew he died in 1970 he was married to a dentist daughter, and he used to control his parents. You only got pocket money. Used to complain to me he had no money on him, paper coffees. He only gave him so much, and he only spent that on something else.
Roy Fowler 11:09
When did he ride in this country? Do you know? I
Speaker 1 11:12
think it must have been just before, before the war, 38 or something like that, right? Actually, I think he was interned, if I remember correctly, for a little time the letter, I just lost count of him and he was I just can't remember exactly the what happened then, but I know that he spent mainly part of His life. He and He died. Yes, remember, I went to his funeral, yes, and his son was there. He had a son. I
Roy Fowler 11:49
wonder if this is the son in the film business. Do you think I think
Speaker 1 11:53
he drifted into film business? I sort of lost count what he did do. It would be
Roy Fowler 11:58
interesting to try and trace him, see if we can get memories.
Speaker 1 12:01
Maybe because he had one son, that's about all I remember. But he was a lovable person. Yes, he was charming and a very brilliant camera man. You know, he fast too, yes, and great sense of humor, lovable person. But I was like eating when any tea brings came up, he had everything going.
Roy Fowler 12:25
He once told me a story, which I'd like to check with you, that his first encounter with the film business, or being a camera man, was at the funeral of Fran Joseph when he was in the army, and they gave out cameras to film the procession, and he stood there cranking a camera to film the funeral procession of the Emperor. Did he ever tell you that? No, no, he never mentioned that to me.
Speaker 1 12:53
I mean, he was always full of fun. He always and, you know, he knew how to sell himself. That was a clever thing. He was a very clever salesman, a Lobo person. Well, so
Roy Fowler 13:04
easy to work with. People like yes, but as you say, he was a marvelous camera man. Oh,
Speaker 1 13:09
yes. I mean, besides that, even that's just and he knew he was also trying to get next picture was always wide. I said, don't why, Arthur, it's something because I hadn't got another picture yet. Please be patient with your reputation, the way you can turn things out. And coward did come along, but he was all great, constant Warner, what was going to be his next film? Yes, and often when things went wrong, which not often his fault, but he was often out maneuvered politically, as he was a very, I don't say simple minded person, but he were very trusting person, and he was not a complicated person. And some people as a film business, who take advantage of nice people like that. And I remember once he was nearly, nearly kind, and he was really in tears because somebody said something about him, which he hurt him terrible. Sat nice if I sold him up and I see him next time I did, he had no right to talk to otter like that. What sort of thing had they said? Well, there's something very cool about him, personally that's very cured him. And he just got back to him, but some person who, unfortunately was not very tactful about it, or it could have been more subtle, we explained it, and he was kind, really let me kind, because you couldn't believe somebody could be saying things like that about him, because he's got a nice, such a nice nature. They all loved him. I never known anybody more popular than that on
Roy Fowler 14:55
really, no, that's true. Very nice man. Um. Know the the end of his life. Well, actually he was still working, because I worked with him. And
Speaker 1 15:09
as I said, we used to meet up nearly as many times we could all, as I said, when we were born, we there. We bumped to each other in different countries, and we were always pleased to see each other. And he was great fun, lovable person.
Roy Fowler 15:32
I suppose it's difficult to talk about his technique if you never actually worked with him. Will you have any comments on that?
Speaker 1 15:38
But he worked more on the continental style. He was more Viennese than anything else, and he was very creative person, artistic person. But instinctively, he didn't sound sophisticated where he talked about it, but his work was sophisticated. He had star, he had class. He was a born artist who couldn't perhaps explain things. It just came with him. That's interesting
Roy Fowler 16:10
point, because that happens quite often with camera. I'm thinking of Harry Waxman, who did lovely work. So you'd never know it to
Speaker 1 16:22
talk to him. Everyone's a big joke, and those are smiling, and
Roy Fowler 16:29
I'm gonna start of those we've talked about. He's the only one I can think of who worked in color, right? None of the others had the opportunity. No, absolutely. And Otto was very good with color. Was he not?
Speaker 1 16:42
Well? He was very good in color. They first filmed. I remember, before he started working in color, we met our police. I said to my look Otto you like just as you would like, black and white, except just make sure the shadows were filled in bit more, otherwise it looks too contrast in time and may not look so good. And all I say is just use your own feeling about it. He started the film for Warner Brothers. He went off to Sicily. I think I can't remember name of in the beginning, he ran into difficult because a leading man didn't like him for some reason, and trying to put a poison into him. And Arthur was very dejected. And actually, when he heard he may be taken off the picture. So guy green that time was going off to Italy, and he heard about that, I told him. I said, there must be something which I'm sure can be put right. Could you please drop in there just to say, Yes, sure. Guy being a very charming person, saw him and told him that everything was fine. He would suggest this and this and that that's all, it was necessary. And I said, whoever the leading artist, ignore him, because he has no power over you, but he put the poison in. So it all worked out they were afterwards, but he ran into that very awkward thing. He may have been taken off the picture placed. Do you
Roy Fowler 18:27
know what the picture was? Can you remember?
Unknown Speaker 18:29
No, he was born about us,
Roy Fowler 18:33
Warners British, or Warners? Warner British,
Unknown Speaker 18:35
yes, Warner British.
Roy Fowler 18:40
And what was it malice on the part of the actor,
Speaker 1 18:43
sarcasm, you know, and he's a very gentle person, that's
Roy Fowler 18:47
right. He couldn't, he couldn't, rather naive, yeah, he
Speaker 1 18:51
was a he was not even certain things, not sophisticated. And they saw him the rat at him. And he's easily hurt. And really, what I heard about this, I was so annoyed I couldn't, unfortunately, leave London that time. But knew guys so well, and when I heard he was going to Italy, anyhow, I told him the story, and he was also horrified to hear that. And he also loved auto nephri. Everybody loved all worked out very well, and he worked did very well. But that's life in the film business that they are not always nice people, no,
Roy Fowler 19:33
and unfortunately, not one of villains about
Speaker 1 19:39
I was very tough in my life, because I realized you can't always be the nice guy, because even two nice people walk over you
Speaker 2 19:48
kill or be killed. Yes, it's unfortunate.
Speaker 1 19:51
It's very sad. I hate because not It's against my nature. Never be tough.
Speaker 2 19:56
But I got a little bit one has to be self protective.
Speaker 1 19:59
You. Have to be even. Michael Powell, I managed to hold my own beauty with him. He could never beat me down. But you see, I don't work with the continent because I understood them so well. You appreciate their quantities fundamentally, mostly well
Roy Fowler 20:20
you understood the culture far more
Speaker 1 20:22
villains. There were none of them, ever villains, not one of never meant to hurt anybody.
Unknown Speaker 20:29
Then have we covered? Otto,
Speaker 1 20:31
yes, I think so great. I only I see. I knew him socially very well, and we Yes, until his death, I met him many, many times. We always were in contact with each other, and many times he used to check up at me if he worked with certain people I worked with for, I say, Otto. He saw this room boy about this and that, because he was a great boy about things at times and easy going could be nicer. The crews loved Him because He was gentle and very kindly person, but it was a tremendous eat, as I said, that's why I became very plump and and his wife, as I told you, was dentist daughter. She had she had him just like that is, which was very sad, because being easygoing person should allow him to have little fun. Sometimes,
Unknown Speaker 21:29
the home life of the hell is, yes,
Speaker 1 21:31
she doesn't even pocket money. That's all she said. He's no good handing money, or he spent it recklessly, and she wanted to save it for him. He just was allowed that to go on because he didn't want to offset her
Roy Fowler 21:53
another Otto, Otto candy. Rick. I never
Speaker 1 21:56
worked with him. I met him when he was in Elstree. He was a tall person. Also came from Czechoslovak, and he was a VIP Of course, as you know. And he was a very brilliant camera man, very strong personality on the floor. But we never worked together. So, you know, very I knew him very well. You knew him well because you missed the meet up in town. You know, it's amazing how Soho became a very favorite place of many people to meet. They liked the atmosphere being continental and the nice coffee places to go to and food shops and restaurants. So it was using our meeting place. Didn't matter, still denim or wherever.
Roy Fowler 22:46
When was this in the 30s and the 40s? Yes, and do you know when he died, or approximately? Do you know when he died approximately? No,
Speaker 1 22:57
I have no idea, because I only met him just briefly once or twice, and that's all right. So for my contact with him amongst the caravan of the car from the continent, I would say that I didn't work with him. He's perhaps one of the very few from the contract didn't work with, and then I worked most with American cameraman, you know, which is another side of the store. I love a lot of the Americans how to, you know, take control of things. And, you know, they're really very professional, tough, but, you know, really on the ball
Speaker 2 23:39
coming out of the big studios there, where it was the business. I got to know Greg.
Speaker 1 23:43
Told him they well. He visit me and Denham studios. And I knew Leanne. I was a very famous Hollywood camera man. When I worked Italy. We met up together many times. We mustn't
Roy Fowler 23:55
get involved in this, but I must ask you about Tolan. When, when was the did he work over here at all? Greg told no. He worked here. He was just visiting, visit
Speaker 1 24:05
me at the Denham studios, because he heard I was connected with, also deep folks photography. He was the first one to start that yes, and he was passionate when he heard that. I was also unaware that he was working on deep focus photography that time at Denham. Then we exchanged ideas and things like that. I found we worked on the same light level. For some reason, same stuff, which is very unique for people don't know each other. And he heard about my work. He'd seen one or two my firms, like I know I'm going. He loved that very much. He was a great firm, and he visited me as a denim studios, I have a photograph of US born together, and he told me that life was very tough. He found because they always expected something very special from him. And he died. He was only 47 heart attack. Yes, sister. Pain of being a light and camera man. Thank you, especially in the Hollywood,
Roy Fowler 25:05
the greatest of the Hollywood cinematographers, but
Speaker 1 25:09
in a very gentle person, very nice person, and was very sad when it happened, but that's the film business. Well,
Roy Fowler 25:19
yes, sometimes, indeed, but I hope it doesn't kill too many people at the age of 47 Well,
Speaker 1 25:25
you have to, sort of, you learn through life. I learned, no, I was very lucky, so many different personalities. And you see, that's a good idea. That's a good idea. Don't do what he does, because that's only kiss of death. But normally, most people were of great quality in a different personalities. Of course, that's life fascinating people, some, some were to be avoided, and some, well, that's life and everything. And the phone business always been, in my opinion, a little bit of a phony business. You know, it's not. There weren't so many talented people about many people sold themselves like public relation might say. But very few had what I call the great talents. Noel,
Roy Fowler 26:16
it's a business of talent and phonelines, unfortunately, right? Erwin, we'll go down that list now of people who seem to have come from that part of the world. You've got the list. So
Speaker 1 26:29
Alan Gray, we worked together on Canterbury tale and Iowa, and Goon, he composed the music, which I thought was brilliant. The next one on your list, Oscar Hallmark. I worked with him at El ulsd when he played a leading part. Then what sort of man he was, way, in some ways, little bit complicated. He got himself little Twister, but a brilliant actor, but a little bit complicated times, and he became very awkward to the director over things which I thought were not important issues. But he settled in after a while. But they brilliant Act, a marvelous personality. Alexander court, as you know, I worked with him on things to come, on the special effects, yes, what did he
Roy Fowler 27:28
do on things to come? Corder, did he have? Well, he much of an input. No, he was
Speaker 1 27:34
just more on the backlog. He allowed the firm to go ahead with the people. He didn't interfere mother. He saw the rushes and he thought about, fine, you just say so you're a great admirer of corder, yes, because I knew sort of very well, because he lived with us in Berlin before the
Roy Fowler 27:51
war. Well, then living with Zoli, you must be very close to him.
Speaker 1 27:57
Was a charming person. He was very handsome person, brilliant because his brother and actually helped him in many respects. And Alex been the head of a family, but Vincent Carter, they sort of like one of the marks brothers. Quite a strange character, but marvelous art designer. Great designer
Roy Fowler 28:21
was Zoltan, as talented as the other two, because
Speaker 1 28:24
he was in a different way. You know, here he was a little bit mad at times because he'd be more Hungarian in many respects, very temperamental but charming, very good looking. Women liked him. And he made so many good firms, as you know the drama many other firms for, for for Alex, see that time when they were in charge of denim studios, more or less, they only made certain firms because they couldn't fill the studio themselves, impossible. So other people came into the studio, in my opinion, was a big mistake called a taking over denim studios when he was a man, one man production unit, really? He built it. Yes, exactly. I mean, he managed to get presidential insurance company to back him. Yeah, I can't remember how many millions of pounds? Well, it's quite a great many
Unknown Speaker 29:21
but
Speaker 1 29:22
good camp. We've been through Herbert long I worked with before I told delightful artists. Lily Powell might work with her too. She'd eat delightful artists and Emerick Pressburger, as I told you,
Roy Fowler 29:41
well, now Emerick, you were very close to and did some superb work with and for so let's spend a little time talking about Emerick Pressburger. Well,
Speaker 1 29:51
Emerick, in my opinion, had not had enormous talent. He really gave Mike about. Are so wonderful opportunities, because he was a very creative thinker. To give you an idea, when we discussing, I know I'm going in London, he had one sheet full except sheet just the idea. He said, it'd be good idea if we went and found locations up to HEB, BT, someplace like that, and then he will write a script. After we looked at the locations. So Emerick, Michael Powell, Alfred young and myself went off in the lucky looked at these others, we decided rather the ideal background. And we saw also coward off the whirlpool. So during the discussion on that ranking, which last about four or five days, Emerick made many notes. We discussed many things. Bori got back to London, but in six weeks had a shooting. Fantastic. Arthur was a terrific story. When I saw the game recently on television, I was amazed how marvelous the film really is. It's a classic. And I hate to say because I work, no, no, I agree with you. And to me, Emerick, work was absolutely fabulous. I know he had many advisers Scottish, advised how to explain things in the Scottish dialect and things like that. Well, that's every writer does that. But principally he created that. So the other firm in Canterbury ter which I also love working on which was the life of story, and many people criticized many things about it. But when it came on recently in television, I had so many phone calls, many people to what door to phone
Roy Fowler 31:54
it's still there. The hinge of that story is still a very curious one, isn't it? It's it's almost misogynistic. The the Eric Portman character is pathological. I've always interpreted it that he's homosexual, yes, as Eric Portman, the act was Oh yes, but it's very curious plot. But
Speaker 1 32:19
he was a nice homosexual. He had class style debonair and he was more sophisticated. He wasn't.
Speaker 2 32:29
He used to, you mean the character, or Portman, yes, as a personal character.
Speaker 1 32:35
See, he, when I worked with him and Brian Desmond Hurst, he had certain amount of contempt. Was he called him a peasant, crude. You see, Eric was more charming, strong, but quite masculine in his way, great soul style about it. I worked there many times. He got on very well with Mike, with Michael Powell. Michael Powell respected him enormously. Very good act, absolutely, and Emerick was charming man. There's
Roy Fowler 33:05
a kind of, I mean Emerick genius, and I think it all probably is genius was an unexpected, very unusual quality to his insights. And in his work. And it's true of, well, spine, black, Colonel blimp, I know where I'm going. I think the least of them, in a way, is a matter of life and death. Canterbury tale, I think, is the most bizarre of all the stories
Speaker 1 33:43
many people, they appreciated some of the mystical quality about it,
Unknown Speaker 33:48
fascinating things in it
Speaker 1 33:52
was something they unique and at that time, not appreciate enough. Now, Americans adored a film Iran, America, but
Roy Fowler 34:00
don't you find something strange in a film that is about Britain at war? Yes, and one of the most central characters is someone who goes around pouring glue over girls here to stop them from going with American
Speaker 1 34:14
soldiers. Minded that was typically Michael Powell. And we, I think Michael, you think
Unknown Speaker 34:19
one came from Michael rather said
Speaker 1 34:21
he loved, he loved everything which was really odd and quirky. Yeah, that's right. Encourage.
Roy Fowler 34:33
So, I mean, I find Pressburger one of the most interesting writers in films ever. And curious, if you have
Speaker 1 34:41
Well, I always felt that he had a quality which you only wish he was alive today. He was not only a gentle, wonderful person, was also clever businessman, besides being a great artist as a writer. And he contribute enormously for Michael Powell. The moment they separated, that was the end of the end of Michael Powell as a great filmmaker. I hate to say that so true.
Roy Fowler 35:13
It was downhill all the way, and
Speaker 1 35:16
I only wish he was alive today, because I Mar that's all style. When I saw anyone going, I was very moved the way he the whole love story is so subtle and so beautifully told. We're
Roy Fowler 35:33
inclined, I think, to think of Emerick as not the typical, because he wasn't but somehow embodying middle European, perhaps Jewish, virtues and talent. But could, could we perhaps be more precise about what that talent was? Was it an insight into the human condition? Was preoccupied with with love? Wasn't he really relationships between people. He was
Speaker 1 36:02
a very sensitive person. In many respects. He was quite at the same time, he was also very clever. On the business side. Used to take care of the financial things of production and stop anything which Michael probably said, No, it's going to cost him out. Mickey, because, rather, we have to find a way going well over budget. Because he want to have with that, he said, Look, Mickey, we must find another way. Please. Let me think, to give this thought, okay, all right. And, and he was brilliant that way.
Roy Fowler 36:35
So he would always adjust the script to accommodate the budget. And
Speaker 1 36:39
then again, often he find a different way, which is even better. You see, we haven't got to spend a fortune to spend that. Let's use our creative ideas. It's always ideas. And he had a great human quality as a person, because I used to visit him many times, because he lived hand, and I used to live at a time of hand and and he were only short distance way in green lane or some street like that. He married a youngish woman. I think she only married him because of his position. Yes, there was no out of the any love he was naturally cared for her, but she, I don't think it was very one sided business, but that's besides the point, and I want to make America. Emerick split up at Mickey then I met him years later, and he retired to the country. He went to Austria first, and he came back and he wrote base books, and somehow he was forgotten. I thought was sad. A man with such great talents never been anybody, in my opinion, like that. I worked with some great writers in my lifetime, but to me, Emerick was special.
Unknown Speaker 37:54
Why did the answers break up?
Speaker 1 37:58
Splitter personalities? Mickey thought, you know, it's about time they say they couldn't agree. They used to have disagreements. Then they used to make up they couldn't this time, things became bit too bitter. Sometimes when their disagreements was it Mickey was Mickey's attitude. It's his attitude. You see, Mickey was very ruthless, yes, quite evil at times, yes,
Roy Fowler 38:26
wicked. Have you read the second volume of his autobiography? Full of lies? Indeed,
Speaker 1 38:33
all lies. If I told you the things about thought about Anna Powell was absolutely full of lies, actually wicked, I could have sued him. I could have made him look stupid. Many people phoned me. Blow me. I should get on to many press people and tell the truth. I said, I don't got to stop. He's not dead now. Let him. Let him get away with it. Who cares? You know, it's it was wicked. What he did to me double cost me, and it's wicked shocking, but I don't want to go back towards that. People are not here anymore. It's not worth it. We also
Roy Fowler 39:11
covered that story on the original tapes that we did. You went through, yes, it's but I found in that book that he patronizes Pressburger. You know, he says How marvelous Pressburger was, but he's always talking down about him, and I found that very offensive and terrible the end of the book, that totally fictitious story of sitting in the garden. We all know that Emerick was was out of it for a couple of years before he died, and he certainly wasn't having that. I
Speaker 1 39:47
only wish he was alive today. I get only thing I treasure very much, my new in him and and work with him. I. Now, let me see now, Paul co boy I knew vaguely. I know he was partly ensemble of record, and then I caught Anton ball. I never worked, but I met him many times the studio. Lovely
Roy Fowler 40:14
actor, again, difficult man, I believe, didn't know then. Again,
Speaker 1 40:18
anybody has quality. Sometimes feels they want to do it the way it is. Yet, you know, what's good with that? You know, might be always being bullied. I think
Roy Fowler 40:28
he, he was another one who had tremendous roles with with Brian Desmond Hurst.
Speaker 1 40:34
Then again, I found Brian Desmond Hurst very easy to work worth, you know, because we, I got on very well with him, because he was a lazy director for work. But he never get got out of his chair, looks to the camera. I think Brian, come and have a look. See if you like to set up. I'm sure Erwin is delicious. I'm very comfortable here. If the rush was great yesterday, just, you just carry on. Couldn't get him to look through anything. Fred zelling, I worked with him too, on a film I can't remember name, a bit. And Sam Goon, I knew him. They were, did you Yes? Here. He always used to say, I always remember this. He wanted a script written like he sent a telegram, just no superfluous words. You want long speeches. Get to the point right away. Then he used to tell the writers, that's why it is. Where did you know golden? But he came to, came to London. Can't remember when he was turned and we met up, and he saw some of my firms. Actually, I know I'm going, he's also a great firm, and he congratulated me. They said, Well, look, you've got to work for Metro soon as you're free, because you're the type of person we should have with us. We want creative artists and people have individual style. Then there was a meeting going on, people kept coming in. When I was in the office with him, and he said, I look Erwin now you let's keep in touch. Then the writer came in, as I told you, write it just like a KK Telegram, short to the point none of his embroidery. I want a straight, fast take. Don't want any long pauses now, always remember that as a very good point. Our greatest handicap in British firms have been too much embroidery. Things are often hope you see overwritten. You can see things often in one or two sentences, and let the rest carry through the action. It hasn't got to be explained in all words. We are a visual mean. Media should be explained through camera and many other respects.
Roy Fowler 42:52
Would that have been around the time of the Second pimber Noel film was that one of yours? Were you on that when the, when the archers would
Speaker 1 43:05
see, I but, but last one, but I know I'm going, was the last one? That was the last because
Roy Fowler 43:12
they, they made four gold wins, gold win and quarter,
Speaker 1 43:18
the elusive pimpanel. I think it was MGM Studios Noel Street. And I thought, Great chap, because years later, I did work for the company on many of the big firms you know, Eric store, and I only met him briefly at the corridor denim studios when he was dressed up with a riding bridges turban hat going down the main corridor. And he knew about myself,
Roy Fowler 43:45
stanberg, not strong, and Stenberg there, that would be Stan King. I Claudius
Speaker 1 43:56
didn't work with him. I knew Billy Wilder because I met him in Germany before he went to Hollywood, because he was a friend that time of Fritz Lang. Well,
Roy Fowler 44:08
now what do you remember of that time? Because that's probably not, not particularly well documented.
Speaker 1 44:16
His name was something else I forget now that not his real name, is it not? I can't remember. Anyhow, he was always a very bright, highly sophisticated type of person. I'm not surprised that he became such a great filmmaker, and he still, even if he was to carry on today, we still make some outstanding firms.
Unknown Speaker 44:44
Michael, I'm going to turn the tape do.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Speaker 1 0:01
Michael, Michael Curtis. His name is really krachma. I met him when, when I was at that time at Bucha studios. He was then assistant director, and he decided he wanted to go to Hollywood. So he changed his name kratma to Curtis. That's his real name, krachma,
Speaker 2 0:19
but he is Hungarian, is he not? Yes.
Speaker 1 0:24
So for some reason, you know, the old Uber studios had so many people all drifted to America, this country, and I think the in the register film business, somehow, many of them all contributed, without a doubt. Only wish we had some today. I wish we had del Ritz, who I taught, a wonderful person.
Speaker 2 0:50
Well, I you know, I don't want to keep you unduly. What would show we try and recapitulate, if we've gone through the list now,
Unknown Speaker 1:03
yes, I think so.
Speaker 2 1:06
The the general influence of these people, looking, looking back, what the emigres brought to this country, they brought, I don't want to put words in your mouth. But was it a love film, a sophistication about handling and making film? Was it to
Speaker 1 1:28
educate it? Yes, to educate it. People in this country about film making, whatever people say, everybody, all of these people, contributed enormously to eventually build up the industry, which became, in the golden years we had, as you know, something very special. And it got to thank again, the people we discussed who were the four you might see there at the cradle of when he was born, and the inner British film ministry was born in the early 30s, and then it had heat ups, and they developed later, but quarter and then del judiccy. If we had to the Accord in del judiccy, we would be still having a film ministry. It's those very foreigners who have built up the British film ministry to say this and gave it something, and they've been lost now with all due respects. I won't mention names today who are so called highlights. They're not highlights. They couldn't measure up to people like Carter, dear judici and all the other people not the same class. They had class and quality and leadership that's missing. To me, it's so sad to see the industry finished. Calver pine wood closed down. Magically. What is it? LSD finished, yes. Noel commercials made dreadful to think to see the industry films the buried, which has so much talent now, not talent, the wonderful artist here, first class directors have to go to Hollywood to earn a living. There's nothing left. And I don't want to go to details why it happened, and put the blame on certain people. They had it. They blew it when we had the golden years. They could have carried it on. And I used to complain many times. I could see the danger signals coming up, and they wouldn't listen. Not because I'm right, because I had lot of experience. I was brought up the love of the industry, and created people who helped me and educated me. So I'm grateful for that, but I only wish somehow there was somebody today who would like to talk again, because we have marvelous talents to left over. And it's, it's sad to think there's nobody there to to say we are game top, number top. We used to be number one in Europe when I worked at firms were considered number one, admired respect by every country I've been to, everybody want to come to London, don't want to make a co productions here, but us, they respected us highly. Really, we had a reputation absolutely tremendous. I used to suggest many times, many producers say, why don't we make more CO production in continental countries? Because we don't want to rely entirely on American Finance. There are many stories where we can come or we don't want to work those bloody farmers. I say, Look, you. In our interest too. We had the foreigners over here who who developed the industry. So why can't we still have some European ties? We're part of Europe. Why should we always have to be in the hands of Americans? Well, you know, it's too complicated. Then the union said, Oh, don't mention that, if we make a CO production, they all have to be British. I said, You got to have half and half, somehow, not into the mate, no, no, and all shops, dears and everybody and even act. I used to argue about these points. Don't want to do about that. No good. What about our members? I say, well, they still be working CO production. Means exactly what it means, no, but anyway, I don't, don't want to, don't want to depress you.
Speaker 2 5:56
I feel very sad. Well, one couldn't be more depressed than one years about the present state of the British film industry, but again, looking back, because we're talking about the the influence that these people who came to this country had and what they gave us. And it was a lot. It was a lot, you know, coward, I suppose, was the most important by far, and
Speaker 1 6:23
also del dodze was made. Also two cities contribute Henry, the fifth Lance levy would never had a chance to direct and produce himself with del duduk, Italian promoter who gave me, he told me he find the money you make any effect who wants to make a film about Shakespeare del Judy, he convinced rank at that time and many people like that. I take me too long to explain to you the things they contribute. Two Cities contribute a lot.
Speaker 2 7:04
It was a very good company, especially in its beginning and middle years. Launder
Speaker 1 7:10
eaten at the time David Lean and have like Alan. They were Senegal. They were also part in the same monsoon. Well, they
Unknown Speaker 7:17
began with two cities. Yes. Thing in which we serve was the two cities.
Speaker 2 7:32
So I knew I couldn't think for the moment what I was going to say, but quarter was a combination of con artist and stunning entrepreneur. But on the other hand, you had people like Gabriel Pascal, who was was a total charlatan.
Speaker 1 7:50
Oh, yes, but then again, he got away with Bellator. He sold himself to Bellator. Well
Speaker 2 7:57
he did, and what a sad day that was although the Pygmalion came out of it. But for the rest, it was all fairly disastrous, and Cesar and Cleopatra almost killed the British film industry stone dead.
Speaker 1 8:10
Well, as you know, do you have you have to weigh things up by the final result. What is the main result? I think the main result shows definitely that coward de judici, Sam Spiegel, those three I can just think of for a second, contribute a lot, because Sam Spiegel introduced some very big subject which David Lean was involved in, yes, and he supported him at that time, When he was still regarding great director made into a great international director. That's the difference being become international respected. So they were being only respected by locally. You have to come Yes, word respect. Well,
Speaker 2 8:55
the fact about Spiegel is, I think he's overrated in some ways, because he he never made a good picture. He never produced a good picture without a brilliant director.
Unknown Speaker 9:07
But he found a brilliant director. See,
Speaker 2 9:11
I'm not sure he found them. You know, you don't find people. I He didn't find Houston. He didn't find David Lean. David Lean had made marvelous films
Speaker 1 9:19
Columbia. He persuaded. He got the back. He got the back, yes, and then he got stripped, and he got everything else. He got everything lined up. He prepared everything. It's you'd be surprised that top producer the amount of work they have to put in, the heart attacks they receive, until things are right, they have to spend their own money in the beginning. They don't just get support just like that. You know, it takes a lot of persuasion, and many people are very suspicious of filmmakers, as you know, and especially the city and many firms they run a mile, yes,
Speaker 2 9:59
well, they've had on how. Happy experiences, and I'm sure we'll continue to do so the financiers and the accountants. Um, it's interesting that I've for years been trying to get John Davis to contribute to our oral history, but he won't. He won't even come near us. You know
Speaker 1 10:17
John Davis? He's a villain. Yeah, a lot of people do say that he's a villain. I won't say very much about him, because he was more of a destroyer than penetrate. Oh, absolutely
Speaker 2 10:30
no. Do we have a final message for our friends in Vienna? When any, any, any, all I
Speaker 1 10:37
say is, I hope one day, the films they make in Vienna will be of some great artists like Beethoven. Somebody offered me to be connected with the story of life of Beethoven. I think you make a great story, and I hope it will be made, obviously, in Vienna, because that's where he lived and where he died? Beethoven, yes. Lud Beethoven lived in Vienna, yes. He lived most of his life. He was born in Bonn, yes. And he lived most of his life in Vienna. Oh, I didn't know that was it was his. Was the whole the am pro Austria, and all the other important people, all were installed by his talent. They supported his
Speaker 2 11:25
talent. Oh, you surprised me. I thought he I thought he lived in Germany. No, no. Mozart was Yes,
Unknown Speaker 11:32
his life was mainly piano.
Speaker 2 11:37
Okay. Well, there we are. That's a tip for them, good. Thank you very much. Erwin, it's my marvelous My pleasure. You.
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