Dennis Kimbley

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Roy Fowler  0:05  
The copyright of the following recording is vested in the BECTU history project. The date is the second of February 1994. And we're back to and the interviewee is Dennis Kimberly. codec executive and then some considerable activity in the industry generally. So if we may start at the very beginning Dennis when and where you were born,

Dennis Kimbley  0:31  
I was born in de oro queens present which is not that far from here, just up the road in Kentish Town, which school there they moved out of that area when I was about 11. Two which

Roy Fowler  0:51  
dates the video when

Dennis Kimbley  0:52  
I was born 1926 so we're talking about was seven. Just before I moved out to Queensbury. When discs go to school there was living there when the when the war started. I had a brother who had been called back into the army at that time came from a rifle car. And I left school at 14 My parents always wanted me to go into the post office and like gone to the post office exams. I didn't really want to do that.

Roy Fowler  1:22  
Was that the family connection?

Dennis Kimbley  1:24  
No, not at all. It was just they felt you know, that was a safe job to get into the post office once you were there.

Roy Fowler  1:31  
So your family,

Dennis Kimbley  1:32  
family had no connections at all with the film business. But I always wanted to get into the film industry. But then I didn't think I'd get I had no experience. Obviously I had no I didn't think I got any talent for it and whatnot. And so I decided that I one of my other main interests was photography. And the film part of it, I'd like to admit this photographer. So I applied for Kodak for a job, which I got started work there during the early part of the war, at the

Roy Fowler  2:05  
age of 14 at age of 40, your first job? That's right.

Dennis Kimbley  2:09  
Although restoring sort of office boy jobs, they wanted someone to help with this unit they had to use to have a better graphic and the Film Unit there. The film unit was working fairly strong because all the visiting dignitaries to the Kodak factory for one reason or another. And so I managed to wheedle myself into that job became an assistant to the tech. Like we can't think of his Christian name, but his surname was Harris, ron ron Harris, who was the camera man. And Freddie White, who was the stills photographer in charge of that unit. There's a bit of a connotation there. Just quickly, very aggressive, as you said, What happened? His daughter Madeline married, Michael Samuelson. And the Samsung family, obviously, in the in the industry. So there was always a connection there as well. I worked with a father, he taught me all my photography. And she Who was she was a ballet dancer at the time married married, Michael. Anyway, I worked there for another few years before I was caught up into the RPF. I'd been in the training or

Roy Fowler  3:20  
what? What were your duties?

Dennis Kimbley  3:22  
Well, they used to call industrial economy department, there was a group that went around all other departments to see where they could save money by not having so much waste, either time or materials and things like that.

Interviewer  3:35  
Was this in London itself?

Dennis Kimbley  3:37  
No, wealdstone just just out of London.

Roy Fowler  3:40  
Was it a far flung company in those days all over the place?

Dennis Kimbley  3:43  
He was it was just as much as it is now his presence in practically every country, including across Germany, right. I mean, at that point during the war. Yeah, I mean, it was it was taken over by another company, but it

Roy Fowler  4:00  
was a company in origin. I

Dennis Kimbley  4:02  
said, Well, no, it was American German. It was a company called Naugle. And it was, it was not in photographic material making but in cameras. So it was making like the retina camera, which came out in those days of no high very high class type cameras. And he continued to do that, but obviously for the Germans. What happened then? Well, obviously it got caught up, as I say, into the RF through the Air Training Corps.

Roy Fowler  4:32  
Could we just maybe draw on your memories of Kodak at that point. They were market leaders presumably in store. I guess when making Motion Picture stocks and

Dennis Kimbley  4:45  
those who were making black and white Motion Picture stocks. And yes, they were indeed In fact, very good quality materials. So and the other main people in this country, then were DuPont, and also ringing in and of course, Just before the war and echo had quite a high presence of black and white, but even with those others, Kodak were the probably the leaders, not only in the actual stock safeguard, but in their research and then the other stocks that were coming out. What

Roy Fowler  5:15  
was the size of their operation here? Was it a large indigenous operational did it mostly rely on American technology? No, in

Dennis Kimbley  5:22  
Well, it relied quite a bit on American technology. But there were three main research centres in those days. And that was America, France, in Great Britain. France went out of it, obviously, for a while, during the war. So the two main research areas on the photographic side were America and Great Britain. And even in those days, the company very much divided its research work, because there might be a project or a new film, which in fact, the work would be shared between the two groups. So there was very rarely something which just happened in the States or just happened over here in this country. Most of the fact all the film that was sold in this country, in those days motion picture film that is, was made in the UK. There's nothing coming over from America at all, we made the whole range of all the black and white products, the jute products, the positive products, and there were quite a lot of them in those days. It just it wasn't there in the area where they used to have coloured basis for the positive stocks, you know, nowadays used to be blue colours, red colours, orange colours, yellow colours to fit the mood of the picture. How

Roy Fowler  6:37  
long did that last?

Dennis Kimbley  6:38  
Well, that must have ended

Roy Fowler  6:41  
was about 35.

Dennis Kimbley  6:44  
As late as yesterday, we're still making it because I say that because some of the actual roll stock was still around when I when I went there, and I was still able to pick up the old catalogues with the bits of filming showing you what colour would you would get if you had flame red or whatever moonlight blue and that sort of thing.

Roy Fowler  7:04  
It was very, very prevalent in the silent era was vaguely remember seeing the occasional sepia colour that trifle and thereafter. Incidentally, this is an absolute digression, and we mustn't lose it. But I taped yesterday afternoon a film called pagliacci which is a 1936 with British Kimmie colour it was called Yes. Which is listed in the titles as Ufa colour.

Dennis Kimbley  7:30  
Yeah, that's right. Yes. Mr. Chairman? Yes,

Unknown Speaker  7:34  
yes.

Roy Fowler  7:34  
Yes. Very, very bizarre code. Yes. You've seen it.

Dennis Kimbley  7:40  
I haven't seen I hadn't seen it. I've seen some of the bits of the colours what they had on their way. Go back to the main I got caught up into the RF then thrown out of the RF posted to the army, they didn't need so many aircrew in those in those days in the era of training to be a navigator, and they decided they got too many anyway. So the discharge is all a few 100. And then about three or four days later, we will call it up into the army. I tried to draw in the army commander Corps and the army photographic unit. But didn't get into that. I probably the reasons why I was fairly fit. I used to belong to the Kodak Gun Club. And there's quite a good shot. So where did I go with in the infantry? I managed to keep up studies on photography, because Kodak ran a course for all the employees who wanted it who were away in the forces that keep up to date with photography. And any time we got back on leave, we could always go in for a day or so and have tuition as it were, what was happening and keeping you up to date which was quite useful. After all, obviously got back to Kodak and at that time, I then joined the testing department. On the motion picture side,

Roy Fowler  8:55  
you will be mob doing 45 or 36

Dennis Kimbley  8:58  
Yeah, I spent the last couple of years in what was Palestine and became Israel. So my particular job when I got back after joining the test department was to revamp all the control systems for their for their motion picture business, which sort of gone a bit by the board. This literally to go back just for a test just remembered something which is perhaps quite interesting. Before I got some caught up. I had to sign the Official Secrets Act at Kodak because couple of things they were doing there they were sensitising 35 mil film, which was then go off on an aircraft. And so some of the big raids, dressed in raids and all those big raids. They actually photograph them and they would bring it back in the early hours in the morning. And about four of us will process the film nonlin not through Motion Picture machine but in tanks. One film ran on racks, with no tanks, and then you had to unwind the film author act on two big drums to dry it. But we would sensitise it as they bring in the film first, and we would sensitise that with mercury bath. Again on these this large drum, putting the film through letting the vapours work on it, process it when it came back about three, four in the morning, and then it would go off to be to be examined. The other thing we were doing was the Official Secrets Act, we had a couple of intelligence agents just sitting there all day long, watching us doing nothing else. And seeing that we didn't pinch bits of the material that came in was they were photographing agents reports on all the German newspapers and feed in the back through Sweden, across the henden aerodrome. And then up to Kodak, it was down and we will do the processing on the printing of those as well.

Roy Fowler  10:51  
So this was prior to going into service is probably the early

Dennis Kimbley  10:55  
days. And then the third thing that this little group of four of us was doing, we were processing all the film for the armaments research group. And this was the group that will come up with these sort of fantastic ideas of great big wheels with rockets firing them to go up the beaches in case there any minds or firing off steel nets with rockets going on the beaches to explode minds. They were playing around with things like the Germans had the flying bomb. And I never saw one actually worked, but they were playing on that. So we used to do all the processing, and then the printing from the negative for them during that time. Which was quite interesting, because I see a lot of this stuff now on TV that we actually process. In some of these historical documentaries,

Roy Fowler  11:43  
the Barnes Wallis activities came a little later,

Dennis Kimbley  11:46  
you never saw that. It was all these ideas of a trying to send exposures off by either by rockets, or by flying bomb type of thing or ways of clearing minefields when they were gonna make a landing.

Roy Fowler  12:01  
What do you remember? Is that Kodak in your initial to it? Was it run as an English company or

Dennis Kimbley  12:11  
it was run very much by an English company. Although the the top man there's a chap chap named McMasters who was an American. And he ran it right the way through to pretty well to at the end of the war, I guess. But everybody else involved and all the other directors at that time and all the managers were all British. And they run it very much as as a separate

Roy Fowler  12:36  
unit. Obviously, it was autonomous.

Dennis Kimbley  12:38  
Yeah, the way the Americans used to get their return, as it were from the British company, was, in fact to charge higher costs for raw raw materials, all the all the base that they use to coat onto came from the States. And so that was a very high cost. And that was the way they were getting their money back. Right.

Roy Fowler  12:58  
Was there a lot of reciprocity between the two sides of the Atlantic in exchanging ideas? notion? Yes,

Dennis Kimbley  13:06  
yes, it was late when I came back from the services. I went over to the states to work for about nine months, I guess, in the coating department, too. And that was happening. What had happened before that used to get what they called superintendents, the department had not a managers, I have a superintendent in those days. And they used to go across very regularly. But I was one of the first non superintendents to go on a technical level to the states in the state at some time. A lot of that happens now. But it was an experimental idea in those in those days.

Roy Fowler  13:43  
That was to Rochester. That was the Rochester. So the legend, I suppose you'd call it of Kodak certainly in those days was of a rather Stern, tough companies, is

Dennis Kimbley  13:56  
that your memory to work for them? They weren't. And tough. In fact, they were very paternal, I suppose, which seemed to be a bad thing these days. But in those days, they looked after their employees and their families extremely well. I mean, look, masters. I said, No, I'm not masters, this American who was the boss of the company, and I was quite a young lad, but at the time, and yet he knew me and knew my name, and would wander around the factory, wander in places and just sit down and chat with people.

Roy Fowler  14:28  
Was it first names or first night really first names?

Dennis Kimbley  14:31  
Let me just produce quite impressive I was very impressed as a youngster. And that carried on as well. When I got back. The Americans a fact when I first went over there, I discovered that there were no doors and any manager's office, for example, was supposed to be a symbol of the managers available. Going on seeing when they were they provided obviously lots of social activities, theatres, sports grounds, although during the war that was dug up There's a plough. And they really did seem to have a genuine interest in in looking after the employees outside, of course they will be you can see whether there's going to be problems in the years to come, or they probably didn't see it then was that because they have very little competition, and they were able to pretty well dictate, joining and buying their materials. I mean, you didn't do Kodak a favour by buying their material. They would do you a favour by selling it to you that sort of thing? Do they resent competition? No, they didn't resent competition, they just felt that it wasn't very important. You know why they were so far ahead of everybody else. And they had such good products and their service was always very good. That How could anyone else possibly come along? Well, as we get later I developed laugh a bit more. Okay.

Roy Fowler  15:53  
Any particular it was sort of cradle to grave, which was the the way

Dennis Kimbley  15:58  
their families working, they would find there would be aunts, uncles, nephews, sons, daughters all working there. And you would find that quite a lot. Not just in, they wouldn't be in the same department. So it was always a policy of keeping very close relatives if they work. They're not working together. I had to work in in other areas.

Roy Fowler  16:20  
You mentioned the Gun Club before. Things like amadori traumatic, yes, yes. football teams. Yes, I

Dennis Kimbley  16:27  
became the chairman of the amateur dramatics level one time, but there's a gambler. An outdoor range and an indoor range there

Roy Fowler  16:34  
was generally the policy always to recruit young and then promote from within

Dennis Kimbley  16:40  
it was practically every promotion was from within the company. And in fact, that is only just change and the chief executive matter of a couple of months ago. So even up to this day, all promotions have been within the company.

Roy Fowler  16:55  
And, again, they they seem always to stay in touch with their market in terms of new products,

Dennis Kimbley  17:04  
or new areas, which was tremendous lot of money on research, development and research, a great deal went into that. And of course, that was added that paid off. But

Roy Fowler  17:17  
what were their major contributions here before the war and up to this this point in terms of

Dennis Kimbley  17:23  
one major contributions at the head of research in Rochester techni mes In fact, came from the codec limited company, via a company called Wayne something Wainwright and Ratan Ratan, Ratan filters, as you know. And then this Ratan was the grandson of the founder of that company. They had this chap who was pretty good at developing, they used to make glass plates, as well as filters and he was pretty good at developing new emotions. He was very bad at keeping the company's costs down. I mean, they were they were buying great sheets of glass and then cut out sizes which didn't match the total dimension. So there's an awful lot of waste and whatnot. But nevertheless, he was he's extremely good on that. And Eastman in those days, George Eastman, used to free store a company that he felt would would benefit the his company, he would pack his suitcase with cash, and go off and try and buy it. And he went to rain, right and Ratan to try and do this. And they wouldn't have any of it. They didn't, didn't want to go inward, didn't want to lose their own identity. Anyway, he tried to gain because he was after this research man. And in the end, they agreed and they sold to Eastman. And the company really shut down after that their employees were brought into the Kodak company. And this man then went off to be to set up the first research department in the States. Another little bit of history, just before that the trust for a few years in what would have been 1892, something like that. And the three when they started in this country, the headquarters of the Eastman Kodak company was codec limited in the UK. That happened because Eastman had got some idea that we're going to be problems in the states with taxes and whatnot. So he moved the headquarters here. He then her the British government will bring in a new tax system for overseas companies having their headquarters here, which never happened. When he switched it all back then to the states. So for about three years, the headquarters the whole company, or organisation was in the UK.

Interviewer  19:48  
I'm no idea when Eastman died. He must have

Dennis Kimbley  19:51  
he died, but no, he wasn't. He shot himself. That's right. Yes, yes. He is at about 1935 36 I think he While he got all his business and private life, he wasn't married into good order. He said that he's achieved all he wanted to achieve. And he, he thought that he'd got a bad cancer, which, in fact, I don't believe he had I'm not sure, but I don't believe so he decided rather than to decline and go downhill that he he had nothing more to to carry on. He left everything in good order. And there were people there to run the company had no family problems, he taken care of those problems

Interviewer  20:36  
and must read up about him. So any anything more pre war that

Dennis Kimbley  20:44  
probably covers as I say, my yard even got now more rather than even more interested in being doing something in film or getting involved in a the unit and codec and be doing was processing for the

Roy Fowler  20:58  
What was your interest primarily technical or was?

Dennis Kimbley  21:02  
It was mostly technical? Again, we were at that age. So I would love to have been a director or something I was doing amateur dramatics, yes. But I never thought that I was pretty enough to do it.

Roy Fowler  21:14  
Were you an inveterate film girl too?

Dennis Kimbley  21:16  
Absolutely. Yes. All the time. Right from the children's clothes. I can remember it now. The cinema is not there. It was just around the corner from where I lived. So it was only about two or three minutes warm to the place.

Roy Fowler  21:29  
What were the movies that stick in your memory from from those times when you were growing up?

Dennis Kimbley  21:33  
I think mostly the westerns and the children cereals for the early days, always used to Saturday morning, Saturday morning cereals. But westerns and then the the gangster movies I think what I find interesting. So having gone into the forces out of the forces, I had really no contact with the cinema business. I did have contact with I suppose the stage because I became I got a commission in Middlesex Richmond. And they then became the entertainments officer when we were out in Palestine, or in Egypt and then Palestine. And I used to do all the bookings of the shows used to come along and whatnot. We build a theatre and stage which we've managed to pinch all the staff from the IAF by giving them parts for a couple of jeeps that they've done wrong and that sort of thing.

Roy Fowler  22:30  
Any people in your unit who went on to subsequent train 49 sugar's by weren't.

Dennis Kimbley  22:35  
There were a number of Well, I suppose a number of people that I heard of afterwards, but nobody that ever seemed to continue on. But it was, it was a raw big variety we had I mean, we went from operas to straightforward varieties, reviews, and one or two plays as well.

Roy Fowler  22:57  
So I was in Egypt at that time, and all I can remember a crooked Rs.

So you're still very young when you when you return?

Dennis Kimbley  23:10  
Yes.

Roy Fowler  23:12  
And there was no question that you would return to why he wouldn't.

Dennis Kimbley  23:16  
Why almost almost went from on the other side. And I thought, well, I've tried the stage. And I can't remember his name, but there was, there was an agent. In fact, hey, jack Hawkins, and people like that said, Yes, he would represent me as an agent would get some more experience in rep first. And I didn't do it. I would see Kodak. Obviously, if they'd obviously kept in touch things. And they they had offered me a reasonable job, as I say redoing all the testing department stuff, which I was pretty interested in. So I did that and stuck to the amateur acting. Do they pay? Well, what kind of loads it never paid extremely well, but they were not bad. I mean, you had no problems. Working working with them? Yeah. I remember my first week's wages. When I went there was 15 Chileans, 15 old trillions. And I can remember that I give my mother about 12 of those, I think. And then going on the bus and blackout. Of course, my first time I paid my fare to go into Kodak. So I've given up a penny which was the pharaoh gave up half of ground and

Roy Fowler  24:31  
as a conductor.

Dennis Kimbley  24:32  
So that was a lesson I learned record.

Roy Fowler  24:34  
15 Bob was not a great deal for even for 1940 was an hour. But there were

Dennis Kimbley  24:43  
changed fairly rapidly. I mean, they reviewed everybody's salary on a pretty regular basis. Less you will be doing something stupid. There was always an ingress

Roy Fowler  24:53  
and great job security evidence

Dennis Kimbley  24:57  
and this great job security class. The fact being In a large company with very different things going on, you had a chance to move around within the company. I mean, the jobs going in one department was advertised in every other. So you always had the opportunity to try and move somewhere else if you wished. They are right back to the testing and reset up all the control systems from processing. On that time, we will bind in new printers as well, because every piece of film was not only tested for its characteristic curve, parameters, but they all get a picture test done everything was usually a models, you know, dummy space photograph, but really interested in the thing when I got back, we started to change that and actually started to do various shots of taking films outside locations and shooting interiors and exteriors.

Roy Fowler  25:57  
These were what aren't exclusively professional products.

Dennis Kimbley  26:00  
I was only at that time working on a motion picture film. I then took over looking after I said on the testing side, looking after all the X ray products, and all the arrow film products as well. But my main concern was the test and all the motion picture film.

Roy Fowler  26:19  
What about amateur activities? 16 mil? Well, 16 mil? This

Dennis Kimbley  26:24  
Ron Harris. In fact, I mentioned his unit his main job was testing all the kurigram

Roy Fowler  26:32  
that was made domestically, was it not important

Dennis Kimbley  26:34  
that was made domestically? Yes. In fact, my reasons go into Rochester I in about 1958 was that they were having problems producing Kodachrome. We were producing it, we had introduced a slightly different way of manufacturing it in the UK, I had to go to Rochester to try and convince them that that's what they should do. And that must

Roy Fowler  26:55  
used you quite quite considerably. They

Dennis Kimbley  26:59  
did when they did it. In the end, it did took a while but they did it.

Roy Fowler  27:06  
I was wondering if you had a sense of direction already at this stage? Or was it just working for Kodak? No,

Unknown Speaker  27:12  
I think I

Dennis Kimbley  27:15  
even then wanted to get I thought the nearest I could get to the film industry. So Kodak was to get into the sales department at some time. We're dealing direct with the film business. It took some time to achieve that. But what I did introduce in in Kodak was a system where we used to meet in by there and I'd moved from the testing, let's say that I've moved from the testing to the emotion making into the emotion coating, which is the department that used to take the emotions from the motion making department actually put it on the base, which was probably the most difficult part of the whole operation. I had control of motion picture film again. Arrow for me is X ray film. And about three of the amateur films which were mainly the films that are going into 35 mil style cameras, very similar to motion picture film. But I introduced the scheme there whereby all of the departments involved are finishing the emotion and emotional coating met regularly to discuss mutual problems. The testing department has to be represented on that and then decided it would be a good idea. If in fact, we had every now and again, users of the product alone. It was a bit wary, both sides versus the factory side and the user side when we first set out those meetings, as customers weren't actually sure what our motives were. And the people from the factory had always worked very secretly. Nobody else outside the organisation and many people within the organisation, they have organisation, you've nothing about how we coated it. Nothing about how the motions were made. And that was very secret operation. But after about six months, to a year, it did in fact start to work very well. We used to go to mostly labs, people and hold our meetings there and they would have access to the emotion makers, the emotion posters, the testing the mountain, the finishing department, representatives who were there. What started to happen, interestingly enough, on the lab side, for example, the lab management started to find it useful because they found that things that they had been been told by some of their departments did were not actually true, or they were excuses and they couldn't say those things in front of us. So they suddenly found a problem disappeared very quickly around that table when there which is rather interesting if you hadn't thought of but then everyone realised the benefit of it and They used to go extremely well. And we were, yes, I've come back, I've now moved up into the motion coating department, I then started to visit a number of labs, the studios to meet cameraman. Because I felt really strongly at that time and so many other people, that the best way of getting the best products out there was to actually find out what they wanted. Mine was double edged, because I was interested in wanting to know and be involved in what they were doing as well. And that was one of my reasons for getting an apartment in the first place. Can we put a year on this? I know we're now coming up into the early 50s. Because I

Roy Fowler  30:45  
was curious about what happened when the Rank Organisation came close to collapse in 48. Because prior to that, when you came back at least two years, it was very boy and industry.

Dennis Kimbley  30:57  
Yes, I tried that. Right. He was. Now I wasn't really involved in what happened around about the rank rank time. I knew them. I've met Jay Arthur. And briefly at that time, I can remember he's a great office that you went into a little fire in some way. But I didn't get involved to be involved in that at all. But in those days, it was nearly all black and white apart from technicolour the fact that we hadn't yet introduced Eastman and there were there were other processes, but they weren't really used use a great deal. But the black and white material that she was going through was a tremendous footage, I mean millions of feet of both negative and positive film. There were still at that time as well to black and white positives, one for newsreels and one for normal work. I mean, that started off by the newsreel material, not having to be such high quality as the release print material. Actually, very quickly, during that period, it got difficult to make material, which wasn't the high quality. So that newsreel material dropped out of sight. They were both the same price anyway. And so what was ever done, I don't know why there might have been in the earlier days,

Roy Fowler  32:20  
nothing to do with speed or anything.

Dennis Kimbley  32:23  
No, no, that were both exactly the same. And it really was a material which perhaps the bass wasn't 100%. And there might have been a problem on it. But he got to the subject there never was a problem with the bass. The emotions were slightly different.

Roy Fowler  32:38  
That was negative stuff. As opposed

Dennis Kimbley  32:40  
to the negative stocks were always the same. But the positive stuff for newsreels was always very black and white, which was a warmer and black and white considered,

Roy Fowler  32:54  
I suppose to be expendable. Well, that's right.

Dennis Kimbley  32:58  
Yes, indeed. It didn't have to last. We were changing over from nitrate to safety nowadays. And the newsreel was the last last one to go. It was still nitrate again, because he wasn't going to be kept.

Roy Fowler  33:12  
Going back to the thing he was saying about the beginning of contact with the actual practitioners and other people that you remember from from those times, DPS cinematographers?

Unknown Speaker  33:23  
Well, yes. A

Dennis Kimbley  33:25  
lot of them Desmond Dickinson. Norman Langley. JACK Carter. Yes, Brian Brian. Brian. Roman Langley was a production manager, jack Carter card of

Roy Fowler  33:38  
yours.

Dennis Kimbley  33:40  
Geoffrey Unsworth. And I think he was might have been a dp then he wasn't he was.

Roy Fowler  33:45  
It would be interesting to to hear about that interplay from from your side. Because he's a true we've only heard it from

Dennis Kimbley  33:53  
Well, it started then and developed and continues now. Because for example, I represent the BSc now on this. City guilds or Great Britain committee. But what I was totally interested in was a what they were doing and why they were doing various things. And therefore I used to like to go on a set, sit and watch and then talk with them afterwards and why they were setting up things like that and why they were doing that. Would it be easier if they had a film which could do this, that and the other. Mostly in those days the product they got theirs, the one they wanted, and what they wanted to do with it, they were able to do in other ways with nooses, blenders, different filters and that sort of thing. Plus the lab could do a bit more for them as well. It was fairly simple on black and white. And I think it's water Lastly, who still says that if you want to teach someone some photography, you teach them on black and white, and then they can go out to colour and I think you Absolutely right. Because if you look at the black and white films now you can actually sit there and in a mile, the photography is the balance of the contrast and everything else.

Roy Fowler  35:11  
It's a lost art so

Dennis Kimbley  35:12  
lost. And that was all done by the lighting

Roy Fowler  35:14  
all the way down the line. To to the one of the people very first person actually we interviewed was Bill girdlestone. Just I mean, the work that bill did in what now primitive circumstances is quite extraordinary. Well

Dennis Kimbley  35:30  
taught me an awful lot he was, he was Charlie Parker's from from Kay's whose sound and he taught me anything I knew about sound. And Bill Goldstone taught me an awful lot about camera work and looking at the film and seeing what was there. What you didn't actually see when he first looked at it.

Roy Fowler  35:52  
And the pride about cricket to

Unknown Speaker  35:55  
what else? Yes,

Roy Fowler  35:55  
yes, the family preoccupation. This is almost a metaphysical question, I got to think about phrasing it, which is those people in those days? Did they kind of regard the what was available to them as the end of the line state of the art? Or were they pushing the boundaries?

Dennis Kimbley  36:14  
No, they were always pushing something more not necessarily the way Kodak or other manufacturers thought was that they wanted as well. I mean, it wasn't always we want more speed, or that that was always there. But that wasn't necessarily the first priority. Sometimes I wanted to film which will give them a lower contrast. That was not too difficult to do on black and white film, but more difficult on colour they wanted Well, that's probably means they wanted a film, which would have better process control. Some files were difficult to control in the process as a very small latitude on the process. That is the lab slightly made a mistake on the thing that it would destroy what they were trying to achieve. Just going over the boundary. So they wanted something which is bigger latitude for any lead variations, not exposure.

Roy Fowler  37:12  
Technically, it was a much more stringent Operation 5040 years ago.

Dennis Kimbley  37:18  
Yes, it was. It was in fact the interestingly enough, even in black and white you could usually tell by looking at print, which they haven't done the print because they were all different. The old materials I said black and white on newsreel was black and white for feature films. It was a warmer tone, which was achievable. I really very dark brown.

Roy Fowler  37:42  
Yeah, yes. This phase, you should say that my memory of the game what I would say the heyday of British production, things like Oliver Twist or great expectations. Were very highly contrasty

Dennis Kimbley  37:54  
Oh, yes, they were indeed. Deliberately shot that way as well. And it was blue black. But if you looked against a royal blue black, which is unusual, you would then see the difference. And also, I mean, there was the film products were known mostly by numbers rather than names. And the newsreel film was 1301. And the Fujifilm stock started off as I was just trying to think then whether which one you've just been drawn with just would have come in 5301, which wasn't that dissimilar from the newsreel as far as black and white. But then very quickly after that, again, in the early 50s, might even be in just before the late 40s. They brought in the 5302. The five inch instantly meant safety on the one at the start meant nitrate. But the fire 302 was a very worm material. But you could change the difference of that one for three line by the process and the labs. There wasn't one lab that had a standard process in bars. They all had their specialists, they all made their own bars. Yes, some will coast somewhere very different indeed. Therefore, they each produced a different

Roy Fowler  39:13  
tone, which was what the personal predilection of whoever was in charge usually get either the charge or the contact rate.

Dennis Kimbley  39:23  
And they some of them would use it deliberately to try and make sure they got the picture by saying what you know what our standard is on the black on the black and whites stocks it's Mark Humphries down the road we'll get Humphreys will always the one which was always all first the white was almost yellow, but some people liked it. But that was how you totally destroy a brand new say that's a Humphries.

Roy Fowler  39:48  
How did you judge that I did distinguish it from so the projector light because

Dennis Kimbley  39:55  
that was another thing of course a projector light could in fact quite Obviously alter that we were doing an awful lot of work by trying to make sure that although there were standards for projection that people actually check whether they were close to it, and if they want to do something about it, that was a difficult task, in those days to meet these days is maybe a little better. But it's always been a problem to get the the, where the end result goes, a projection that better controls and it is,

Interviewer  40:27  
mean, very rarely

Dennis Kimbley  40:28  
does anyone take any measurements off the screen? And then those days, nobody even knew how to do it and do it. yet. They're all saying, well, we're running on a standard.

Roy Fowler  40:38  
Well, it's it's heartbreaking when so much money and time and care and effort goes into making the bloody thing and all the way down to the release print. And then it's at the local MGM on a filthy screen on a rock. That's

Dennis Kimbley  40:51  
why Stanley Kubrick I show you know, always goes around to any of his films are out and checks that Mars actually checks as many as he can, and tries to get them to take stop trying it if it's not right.

Roy Fowler  41:06  
So really, these are the I've used the word heyday before, but kind of the heyday of the motion picture operation in this country or the 50s wasn't too bad.

Dennis Kimbley  41:16  
To me, they've been big drops or already bad. But the fact is, weren't too bad, because we hadn't really gotten television taking a big bite from anything.

Roy Fowler  41:25  
How did you sell to? Well, first of all the the production side of things, and then to to the

Dennis Kimbley  41:34  
the production side was nearly always to the production company. And in those days, we just don't know, in those days, even slightly more than it is now. The producer, and the director will always leave it to the cinematographer to choose the stock. They weren't really interested at all in getting involved. And there was no question then of how much does this one cost? And how much does that one cost? It was purely. You're the cinematographer, we've hired you, as a cinematographer, you choose to stop. So there was cinematographers preference. So the main contact with Kodak was with the cinematographer. In those days, a

Roy Fowler  42:16  
lot of whom were still on staff, would they not say

Dennis Kimbley  42:18  
yes, I can say now if you get Pinewood fried, for example, you used to have to make sure that Bert easy in the camera department was also okay. What stocks are going to be used as well. His was I mean, he had a great knowledge but he's was another my mentors are. remember the first time I ever went in to the camera. He said how much you know about cameras. I said very little, he said, right? A fortnight's time, we come up here. And it's been two weeks with us traded and learned an awful lot about cameras taking them apart, put them together again. But mostly even when they were on contract, cameraman, they had the choice. Very little was sold direct to a studio. And it's this country. In the States, it was always to the studio, not to the cameraman. And some extent it still is in the States. So we're now approaching the time when colour was introduced. And I was fortunate that I sort of headed out the UK team that introduced Eastman colour here. It was first introduced in the states and then a little later, about nine months later in this country. So around about 1954 and akva gave up gave up in those days, gave up were introduced in a kind of product as well at the same time. Interestingly enough just to go back a bit the the ACE one calorie really came from actual colour line. So I said I prefer colour. Here's what happened just in Germany on in the war. I remember the dominant masters coming out from the factory one morning dressed as a colonel in the American army. And let's say they're all very friendly. So he said, Hey, you know where you're going, or I'm just off to Germany. We're going to the factory, which has just been taken. And he went Oh, and they came back with all the information that Akbar have been working on the colour product which in fact became East one colour and Coca Cola today. So it

Roy Fowler  44:26  
was really an act for what was a pre war Kodak colour systems.

Dennis Kimbley  44:31  
Kodachrome mostly both for amateur and for

semi professional and amateur 16.

Interviewer  44:40  
One was used for technical Amano park in

Dennis Kimbley  44:43  
technicolour mana pack. If it wasn't a colour press it was all all black and white.

Roy Fowler  44:48  
I mean, the monopod

Dennis Kimbley  44:49  
in what mana pack I'm not sure

Roy Fowler  44:52  
but I had a feeling it was one of those almost amateur stop.

Dennis Kimbley  44:56  
Well, what happened? It was probably the lenticular process that we had, which, which in fact was a product which had a lenticular surface which directed broke up the white light into various components and rated that to a different part as a negative. I think we didn't last very long actually. But it was

Roy Fowler  0:35  
I asked Sorry, I asked the question about mana pack because nobody really seems to know what

Dennis Kimbley  0:39  
No, I don't know a great deal about it. Most of for all of my experience was was three strips.

Roy Fowler  0:47  
So Eastern colour is really essentially war booty. That's right. And I think the DuPont stocks actually were general and alignment I believe they were also and didn't the Russians make off with one of the agriculture plants

Dennis Kimbley  1:05  
act for the Russian colour? I used to travel a lot to Russia later in my career was in fact the actor, the original actor, so it was very similar to the correct material but several developments down the line because I didn't do much work on it at all.

Roy Fowler  1:22  
And presumably the colour films that have surfaced of Hitler and Eva Bronner original hypercolor

Unknown Speaker  1:29  
the original actor, I remember

Roy Fowler  1:30  
just after the war and I forgotten the precise circumstances but it was very secret thing paracelsus and Munchausen in in America and it was regarded as enemy property and very difficult to see that at the time quite extraordinary was it ever sorted out as a matter of interest the the as it were the intellectual property involved?

Dennis Kimbley  2:00  
I believe so yes, yes. Yes, it's in it's certainly been acknowledged Oh

Unknown Speaker  2:05  
my god.

Dennis Kimbley  2:08  
Then, of course, the original Aqua game, although Regional Water net which is where their factory was. And so that got lost a bit over there and they then attempted to carry on with the production game but again, didn't have the resources to do so I guess.

Roy Fowler  2:30  
Yes, it was the stuff that I saw was not never very good, I suppose was not well manufactured.

Dennis Kimbley  2:38  
Well, as I said later on jumping a bit but later on, I looked after all, the East European operation for motion picture for Kodak. And so I used to go to all of these countries East Germany, Poland, Czechoslovakia, Russia, then Basel, Russia, Romania, Bulgaria Hungary quite regularly spend nearly six months of URL going into those countries and other Western European countries too. But the Russian product there and they then started to buy Eastman material from from us direct from us because they were trying to get get some of their films accepted by the West. And they argued that if the technical quality was so poor then not much chance of doing that. So if they had a production which they felt had some potential that they might be able to sell to the west and then started to shoot on Eastern colour.

Roy Fowler  3:32  
This was when 50s

Unknown Speaker  3:35  
early 60s

Roy Fowler  3:37  
because they did some really rather exciting stuff and I suppose it was a certainty is one piece for it was

Dennis Kimbley  3:43  
that was an easy one. Yes. And brothers cameras off was the first one I got involved with which went on for ages and ages needed. And

Roy Fowler  3:52  
they not only tried to not only bought from you they tried to Nick from you too, did they not there's the famous case, which centre is not a million miles from where we are now. Yeah.

Dennis Kimbley  4:04  
I worked with him. You do? Yes. He did it with both of them. If it was Conway was that the chaps name? He was vice president here at night for a while or something? Ah,

Roy Fowler  4:17  
yes. Ken Roberts, Ken Roberts. I think dying as we speak, he has leukaemia

Dennis Kimbley  4:29  
but he worked karaca can I can remember working on several occasions throughout the night with him. Again, it gave a little side story when that case was going on. I had then moved to the sales and I was in a pub not far from it bow Street. They were I'm not sure. But in case the Kodak security hit and saw me then he got a whole lot of other Kodak people with him. So Dennis, glad you're here. Would you mind looking after everybody here he said publicly going on, and I have to give evidence this afternoon. So I shouldn't really be giving. I shouldn't really be here lunchtime with these guys who've given evidence to see. Sure. Okay, I do them all anyway. And I'll be when families Asia, incomes Can, can roll it. So as I say, you may quite well push us through the code of people who give it over evidence and warnings if

Unknown Speaker  5:22  
you can have a

Unknown Speaker  5:24  
look, if the risks are junk, they've got

Dennis Kimbley  5:29  
an interesting thing there, and then a new one that have to say, Well, what are you doing anything? Well, yes. But we weren't taking any money for it. No, that is interesting. You said, a lot of the stuff, all the stuff we shouldn't affect. And I police saw me and all the stuff they were saying we've got this formula, and it was d 76, which is republished for everybody was using to partner. There were some other things I guess, I don't know. And I knew that can do. One of the big things have been that there was this Belgium chap involved, which was supposed to be the middle agent. And it had been alleged, although he never gave evidence now that he will, Hong Kong I gave evidence that they didn't know this man. And a few years later, the observer published an article, this Belgian a dying about him that he was a big industrial espionage guy. And there's photographs actually published with him, chatting to Ken Roberts. And Ken never actually did it, because he never went on stage.

Roy Fowler  6:34  
Where I suppose on touching Oh, we can embargo the tape, we can sell the tape. So we can talk about things like this. But I only know about it by by hearsay, because I was again in the States but the Canada is a rather peculiar reputation. So whether or not it was ideology at work, or whether there was an economic basis property to build anyway.

Dennis Kimbley  7:02  
But he was he was the chairman and vice chairman of the Hara. Communist Party. Yes. as well. I mean, he never made any secret or very open about the whole thing. He was very anti or that time with parents, because they did not share his his views. And I remember working with him one night, and they'd gone off to Australia or something like that. And he was complaining all the money that they'd spent for that trip, which could have been spent better. Yes. So he was very committed? Well, I

Roy Fowler  7:34  
think it's true to say that AC t at that time, and to quite quite late on in things, it was essentially dominated by at least one communist. So maybe two, because I think on the one hand, there was a kind of intellectual activity at work and on the other and that's true of the lab people. There seems to have been a much more doctrinaire Stalinist approach to things but as you say, they made no secret, again, visited Russia and

Dennis Kimbley  8:04  
seen photographs of him with various collectors, trotting off to Russia. And as I say, I travelled in all these Eastern European countries, and can always made a point when he saw me telling me where I've been.

Roy Fowler  8:22  
Is it the time to talk about this trip? Or shall we hop back to

Dennis Kimbley  8:27  
just introducing Eastman colour, which was a pretty big event in the whole history of motion picture because it had been dominated by technicolour up until that point.

Roy Fowler  8:38  
What was the relationship with technical it was it

Dennis Kimbley  8:41  
was it was no financial relationship with business relationship and technical at all. But falls g says of technical is live up to that point, or even further than that. We've been the sole supplier of all the matrix films of all the print materials that they used as well.

Roy Fowler  9:04  
They were with the three strip camera, whether they were special stocks, presumably that went into the magazine.

Dennis Kimbley  9:13  
Yeah. And then you had to have the matrix they were imprinted onto which then transferred all the the inks on the immigration print. And the immigration print stocks was a special now many other Monday, much of the work of producing the emotions of those developed by technical technical of them allow a codec to make the materials for them. So correct, in fact, couldn't go along and sell those materials to somebody else. irrational, kept trying to get us to do because they had an inch to have an ambition planted from what was Leningrad and they were always saying, well, worldwide, he was tell us that material he had to keep saying, well, it's not totally ours. We make it for technical or whatever. Is there formulation? And therefore we can't openly sell that. What about China who the China because it's different, because technicolour got involved. In China, I had a slight input onto that, because I went out to China in 76 for Kodak, and still in late 7673 is still wanting to set up the supervision plant because the vast number of prints they wanted there, and they thought that would be the cheapest way of making them. And I had discussions with technical people here, putting them in touch with the trainees. And then they took it on, obviously from them. I was

Roy Fowler  10:37  
curious watching Farewell my concubine the other day, which is your pub called beautiful looking stuff. Whether that now is entirely a domestic operation or whether they are using foreign, they're

Dennis Kimbley  10:50  
using foreign stocks as well now, and they weren't in fact, one of the reasons I went out there that they were going to set up some easement processing. They had their own stocks at Sue's Yangtze River, I think it was called or something peculiar traffic stops. But again, they felt that if they were going to try and sell some of their products to the west, that it wouldn't be acceptable. So they wanted to set up Eastman processing, and Eastman stock. And I guess they wanted to look at them as well to see whether they could actually make them themselves. And so that was why I went, I went out there to run one or two courses in a setting that will help set out their first process. Interestingly enough, it took me about five weeks to actually get into a studio there, they used to come to me in the evenings with film and stuff that shot the day before and set up a projector in a couple of rooms that I had there and actually show me the stuff, we discuss it, but I get it. So one car comes to the studio. And then in the end, they say well, you can come to the studio, maybe in a week's time. But we have been very worried that our studios are so dilapidated, the equipment is so old, we were ashamed to show it to you. But now we know that you won't mind you will be able to come.

Roy Fowler  12:14  
This was kind of films but on Eastman stock, or did they have any kind of demand

Dennis Kimbley  12:22  
or somewhere and this is the Yangtze River was stressful stuff that has some talent. And they decided they couldn't really go along that route, they would actually get into the mainstream of colour and buy their materials in.

Roy Fowler  12:38  
All this is the time of the Cold War I was there a certain difference in trading with the Eastern Bloc, though there was.

Dennis Kimbley  12:49  
In fact, there were only about three of us doing it. Now four of us are to two in France, Kodak France to encode limited, nobody else. absolutely nobody else got involved early on, when you went to do it. And we used to do things like in hungry instead of getting money we will we get at resources. I remember once the payment for all material. And I find often that I've got 80 right horses resources, what do I do with them? So we'll use

Interviewer  13:19  
this worry the CIA or mlse?

Dennis Kimbley  13:22  
Well, I used to get regular visits from the British Council, obviously not the British Council.

Unknown Speaker  13:30  
or whatever it was. And actually it was

Dennis Kimbley  13:34  
it's quite a slightly way in time always used to have, for example, I would always find my wife every day at a certain time. And if she hadn't got a call, then she would she would contact

Roy Fowler  13:45  
Did you ever think that might be set up? For whatever reason I decide.

Dennis Kimbley  13:50  
I met a man called ruder cough in Russia, for example. And he was in fact on the Central Committee as well. But he was a very bluff. boisterous monopolist, bluffing to the point by red bass. He we were at lunch one day and he came in and said, I'm sorry I'm late and he had a briefcase the contents and I've been swimming and it was about 18 degrees below or something else I'm I said what endorsement means no, no, no outdoors. And he just brief proxies went through that sort of man. Now with him. He started to he was the first person in Russia that I went out with on social lunch for dinner without anybody else being present. So he knew that he was very well sort of whatnot and he felt that he was safe being with him. I want evening he did bring this subject up, you know, why are you people that visit our country worried that Some things will happen to you. things have happened to various people. Well, when was one particular time mentioned here and you say, Well, he is a spy. And then he came, he said, You don't have to be worried. I said, because there's so many people come into this country doing things which are against a lot of stupid things, bringing in propaganda leaflets, bringing really religious ones, bringing books, that we can always find something to pick up somebody. So if you're not doing any of those things, nothing to fear. I actually believed you. And after that, I did feel safer. What used to get me that told my wife these stories, and she does still doesn't believe me, I don't think you will obviously get calls in the middle of the night from from women who would know your name. So you know, can I come and see, my bottle of whiskey would have been a good title sort of thing. And obviously, it was just my wife says, but sometimes you told me they knocked on your door, and you mean to tell you to leave or see what they were like? No, I can remember on one occasion, this particular one being broken system. And they said, Do you really disturb anymore, I shall immediately find some people I know in the ministry of culture, and the phone went dead. That was three or four days later as root of cough. And he said, You did the right thing the other night. And that's when you told him? You were getting some calls. So yes, you did the right thing. Somewhat nerve wracking. Yeah. And then I don't know if you remember the story probably do that. as commander Courtney. Yes. All right. Well, come on to Courtney was the MP in Harrow where the Hara factory is, and because of his wartime work, and father's work and whatnot, where they used to trade with Russia and some of the Baltic states, and he was Naval Intelligence in that area, Kodak took him on as a consultant released operations. So I used to meet him pretty regularly and quite quickly, as early as a bit useless, actually. Nonetheless, he was a consultant there. And here, if you remember, he was definitely caught by the Russians. There were photographs of him that appeared. No, I mean, I got called into the factory manager's office one morning and said that was just arrived. And the posts this morning those Courtney was Russian girls, just these pens. And these went to his wife going out and the government that time when he sort of lost out his only defence was it couldn't have been true because he got a hernia at the time wasn't worrying that sort of parents know that this is mainly defence on that it wasn't him. But even before that, again, they used to tell them and again this Rudra cough chat was Come on the Courtney visits are contrary anybody disrespectful and is discourteous.

We don't want to visit and I think he was involved in all sorts of things.

And so they publish it now, one evening again, with rudl coffee so we have to go to a certain place to pick up something before we go anywhere. We went in he said I want to introduce you to this young lady here reception. We stood there smiling anything and as well. What's happening now you might be photographed or something shaking hands in the air you're laughing You don't recognise that I looked at her and she found out the Daily Mirror on the page that was the girl was caught me

Roy Fowler  18:47  
so there they were a lot more efficient than sometimes they are indeed more benevolent or self aware. There's a legend around this place that can now I can beyond that I can rather like j edgar hoover kept files and everyone and the reason why on sapper was so successful. misbehaved himself indeed. But of course it could not be true. Absolutely not. No, no, there was no.

Dennis Kimbley  19:21  
Anyway, now when I enter the area, aren't we? Well, we've got a sprinkler going act for colour. Sorry. Keep saying that. Gave up colour. I would remember what the big introduction for that big coronation time. Middle 50s

Interviewer  19:37  
the coronation was what 53 was 5383 Yes.

Unknown Speaker  19:42  
Yeah. What

Dennis Kimbley  19:43  
happened though is we're making both making big push for this. These new colour products rank at Pinewood had gone with Eastman Kay's lab had gone Guevara and they were to lots of newsreels. When using Ks when using Pinewood, using denim relevant labs and they did the coronation colour and came back and the eastern stock went through fine. The Guevara Ks had problems. That was never real established whether it's film or whether it was process at the time and or mixture of the two. But in fact, the the Eastman came out was fine, the geval was about a day, day and a half late when it did come look terrible. And the rest of the the industry then made their decision that if they were going a colour process, it would be such

Roy Fowler  20:37  
a wicked question, but I have to ask, it wouldn't would industrial sabotage ever they entered into

Dennis Kimbley  20:44  
these areas, not that I've ever been aware of any whiff of it at all. Now.

Roy Fowler  20:49  
So that was a straight comparison, straight comparison,

Dennis Kimbley  20:52  
this was a most days is a totally different process. Now, that meant that actually gave Kodak the absolute dominance on the colour market, and went on and on and on for years without anybody else getting the chance to come in. Because they gave up material, you couldn't then take the gave up material and put it through these from prisoners, they didn't work, they made their own process. Fuji, we're not yet on the scene. And so there was nobody else there. So in fact, when feature films were being shot for colour, they were shot on Eastman. So credit really wasn't even having to go out and sell our product. And so it became interesting after the group that I eventually took over became very much a service group to the industry. I mean, I never saw anywhere when I left, a Kodak man and the motion pictures, I was an order book and an order form that they wouldn't know what they look like anyway. And that's really sad to them, because all that was required was some contact between production, the lab people with a Kodak people. So that if anything went wrong, for example, the Kodak man would sit in wherever we could on rushes on it. So if there was a problem, and it was a stock problem, he was able immediately to tell the director or producer before even the labs that told him and that was the arrangement with the labs, that the labs would give the Kodak man a chance if it was a lack of stock problem to actually tell producer and you start to say that something has to be done about it.

Roy Fowler  22:29  
Was there a legitimate price differential between the black and white stocks and the new colour? Yeah, were they making a profit while they could? Well,

Dennis Kimbley  22:38  
they I finally I did a plot at one time ran about 5354 when it was introduced, the the price of raw stock for colour film, over the next four years, dropped dramatically. It was very, very expensive to start with. But during the first four years because complete dominance, like Kodak had over that period, it

Roy Fowler  23:00  
wasn't amortising the research,

Dennis Kimbley  23:02  
no, it came it came down. And it took another 22 years for it to come back in real terms to that introduction price, which is quite interesting. And eventually, by that time, is now black and whites more expensive and colour. This is not so much of it. But that's how Kodak in eastern became the dominant person in certainly this country. And most other countries then followed by both the states who had obviously done all their words direct through the studios and the UK, they will follow on the news to European countries, the eastern countries are generally doing it also, India, for example. So for many, many years, there was no need for Kodak to sell at all. But there was a great need for them to service the industry. So the people working there got very much more involved with the actual use of the products than they would have been if they had been straightforward sales people just selling a product now. In addition to that the motion picture division of Kodak for a long, long time didn't report to any sales director or anybody else it was a totally separate unit by itself. No one else got involved with them at all. I work with the factory direct with the factories for making the products, served it and sold it out to the product without anybody else getting involved for quite a long time. Although the volume wasn't as great as amateur material before amateur material became almost solely colour. And the major part of the profit from Kodak unlimited was coming from its motion picture operation worldwide because of the vast volumes of film came through. That's changed these days and amateurs obviously the biggest out of the market now. And it wasn't an account, remember the actual days where it wasn't until Fuji started to come into the market. And there had been some materials from Kodak which Fuji had purchased on rottie. And we're making colour print, for example, after paying a royalty to Kodak to meet the materials, why there ever was so that I don't know, but it was. But they quite quickly realised that having their own process wasn't going to get them anywhere. Because how do you go into a lab and get them to change their process or put in another process in the hope that they might have a good product, which will be cheaper or whatever, it just wasn't worthwhile operation. So they started to make sure that all their product is processed in the process. And you could then see that other quality was not as good as kodagu there is no reason why it shouldn't improve, and be as good eventually, close enough for starters to meet no commercial difference. So it was at that point where things started to change. Incorrect attitude, but it took them a long time in America to accept that.

Unknown Speaker  26:18  
Yes.

Unknown Speaker  26:19  
Does that

Roy Fowler  26:20  
indicate that American management was somewhat what inward looking and so is a very inward looking

Dennis Kimbley  26:26  
and it was very isolated. And it's in a small town, Rochester 300 miles from New York. There, there were one or two things I mean, Polaroid started there from ayleid Corporation, and there was what was the other company hollywell control equipment there. But it was it was a town real apart from Kodak and the others that started coming. It was a town that made Taylor and accessories crazy. And that was its big thing making belts and buckles, buttons and things like that for the whole of America. But nevertheless, that's what they did. So it was a small town and small community. And all kinds of people came from or nearly all of them came from there.

Roy Fowler  27:11  
It was a very The 50s were very smugly located in maps to the Eisenhower years it was the American century and the focal point of the world which was you know, True enough that I tried

Dennis Kimbley  27:23  
and and and gradually other groups within Kodak and it's happening not just Canada with other industrial concerns as well as same sort of story.

Roy Fowler  27:33  
General Motors. Yeah, this is the best exam. That's

Dennis Kimbley  27:35  
right. Yes, indeed. I will tell him that the is there wasn't world outside. We used to call it a Monroe County syndrome because Rochester is in Monroe County, up in New York State. And you know, and unless it happened there, we didn't happen anywhere else couldn't possibly happen. Something different from what was happening in Monroe County was impossible. And we used to call it So say I think it's still called the Monroe County syndrome. And it took a lot of work. Very good example, as we go on when Fuji materials started to be used, because the quality was, and Fuji would say the same was okay, except Well, it certainly wasn't as good as Kodak. But it was perfectly acceptable. We on our side of the Atlantic have been pushing these from company over there that we needed a high speed film for motion picture. They said Hollywood cinematographers didn't want it to be felt when they need for it. We did point out that, you know, not every part of the world has the same skies as in Hollywood, that sort of thing. Or the same studio facilities as Hollywood has gotten the highest week film would be a tremendous advantage for for production, keep the heat from the lighting down all sorts of things. And if we get along the working day, as long as they wanted that sort of thing. And they could do shots, which they couldn't do at that time with us if it wasn't sensitive enough. Awesome photographers were all asking for high speed, wouldn't do it in the States. And then Fuji came along and introduced a high speed film, because they were immediately able to say the highest speed film, much of it fell in the world. The first at the speed wasn't a very good film, but it was there and it was available. So of course, Kodak then who had been doing work on high speed motions, but not was not necessarily for promotional picture, had a crash programme. then six months later, we came out with a high speed film, but that was the first time since an introduction of colour that Kodak had had to follow.

Roy Fowler  29:44  
I suspect that coincides to the period stylistically things were changing whereas before, under very precise and exact studio conditions there was a connection to to lighting that motion pictures Suddenly it's handheld. And there's far more preoccupation with content rather than appearance. The lighting itself

Dennis Kimbley  30:08  
was changing as well.

Roy Fowler  30:10  
Yes, yes, the

Unknown Speaker  30:11  
bold

Roy Fowler  30:12  
lamps are the Rayleigh indeed. And the cameras suddenly there's the the reflects. That's

Dennis Kimbley  30:17  
right and highest, the lenses as well. So that was a very interesting period when Kurt now realised that they were not trying to catch up somebody else,

Roy Fowler  30:27  
you're saying there was a greater awareness in this country. And then in

Dennis Kimbley  30:30  
this is documented, interestingly enough from some letters and reports that I'd written, we're still on fire. Going back since the late 60s, early 70s, saying that we needed this high speed film and are given the reasons why. which is essentially what we did do, but it took, it really taught us some very, very tough meetings, and nothing really happened until Fuji.

Roy Fowler  30:57  
how rapidly did Fuji become a threat to market share, and

Dennis Kimbley  31:01  
not just fairly quickly on if you take next film. Even now, I would say that something like 80% of the world motion picture. So I shot on Eastman still is still very high. Fuji have probably got about 50, worldwide, even including my people, and that I even played in Japan and add for pick up, pick up the risks. There's not much else around from anywhere now. But Kodak had had 100% error. So losing 20% or 25%, perhaps in some countries was a big blow. If you're looking at it, then I said it, then they still said now I feel it was a very good thing to happen. You needed that competition, not only to push the product forward and give the people out there a greater scope or greater creative scope, and they'd heard before these products, but it also you had a lot of people there who did not like Kodak because they were too dependent on Kodak. And therefore I felt like Kodak dictated to them.

Interviewer  32:19  
Right they had to do well it was regarded as a monopoly.

Dennis Kimbley  32:22  
In many cases. That was not true. In some cases, it was true. But in many cases, that wasn't true, but they didn't have any alternative. So to them, it would appear that that will be the case.

Roy Fowler  32:32  
And the company obviously didn't care enough to to correct a false impression. I wouldn't have to have a P. So thinking we've rather gone into general areas or corporate areas, rather than your own specific career. So let's get back to that in the we're in the 60s now. Yeah,

Dennis Kimbley  32:58  
yes. I started as I said, I think they said earlier to look after all the export, correct limited export activities for motion picture film. At that time, Kodak limited was making most of the product for use in Europe, East Europe, east and west Europe and the Middle East. and India. There was a big rationalisation programme for manufacturing Kodak where, whereas before the three main factors being France, England and America have made practically all the products that were made by Kodak in any area, not just Motion Picture anywhere else. Then there were also factories in Canada in Toronto, also made some national picture products. There's another one in Canada in Australia, which made some Asian picture products, they were then opening new places in Colorado, another one in in Mexico. And they will all bake in quite a large chunk of all the products and that was decided that was not the way to go rationalised you would have one factory doing these sorts of products and other factories and other sort of products. And to me, it was unfortunate that the Hero Factory lost its responsibility for making all the motion picture products and that all went to Paris. What happened then was a lot of the Amazon products then were switched to the hair at factory so in fact they did quite well in the end, but it was just a personal personally disappointment that we ceased to make these products. But what I did then was getting very closely with French colleagues, by which time I was in sales, but with the manufacturing because everyone was worried about the switchover. The French product at that time did not have such a good reputation as the limited Product limited are always been a factory operation, which was very, very strong on quality. And they had quality control procedures and quality control checks, which many others didn't, didn't do. They worked even which has become very popular nowadays even work with promises from people operate in a perforating machine and whatnot, we're on those committees and we're coming up with proposals of what should be done and how things should should be ordered. It was the same in the group that I was in, in emotion voting, we will have the chance to actually work in the machines will have quite a vague input of how that machine should operate, and what should be done to make it better. What was wasteful on this sort of thing? So there's always very much routine

Roy Fowler  35:51  
fairly normal at the time, I would, I would have thought, yes. Because in most companies management was management. And how do you Yes,

Dennis Kimbley  36:00  
in fact, it was very good working atmosphere because of that, too. And the quality, without a doubt came from that. And the industry over here knew that and they did not want to see that disappear, because they would prefer to have Kollek limited stock even than American and French. When it knew they knew it was going to go to France started insist that everything came from, from America.

Roy Fowler  36:26  
Do you know what the thinking was behind that corporate decision to

Dennis Kimbley  36:30  
I think what it was that obviously, financial people in particular looked at and said it was costing too much to make all the products everywhere, you ought to concentrate solely on one area. And then you could therefore get the cost of that particular type of product down. Because you were making it for a world market or a large market anyway, rather than a small domestic market. Motion Picture was slightly different because France was still continuing to make make it although they started very quickly to restrict the actual products that they made. And America was making all the motion picture products still, they were making all the base for every manufacturing plant around the world anyway. So that was still coming out from America. Anyway, we made the switch, and we made it quite well, because we work very closely with the French factory. My experience of having worked in the correct limited factory held me in good stead because they knew I knew the problems because I knew most of the people made a general in France was I'd worked with and when I worked in the Hara factory. And so we in this country had in fact a very smooth changeover. We went and told people they didn't like it, we want to tell people, they may hit problems. And what we would offer is what we would get over those problems as quickly as we could. So that that works reasonably well. But that was another quite a big change, which is not all that obvious to the industry. But it was quite a big change for the current Corporation and fast change.

Roy Fowler  38:06  
And those that still hold today that still haunts me. So it didn't work.

Dennis Kimbley  38:14  
I then started to get much more interested in the Eastern European countries. And I started to get less interested in the West European countries because that part was going to come from France anyway, then I wasn't wasn't involved. But the Eastern European countries. As you probably know, when they noticed somebody and they're comfortable, that person will do all they can to make sure that they don't have to start all over again with somebody else. So though most of their product was now going to come from from France, I kept the main contact between Eastern Europe and Russia until middle 70s I suppose. That stage my then boss, Gordon Craig was how can I put it he's he was easing off. And kind of way he was a highly technical man, for example, and it's very early days, he had worked with the bed, just around the corner here. And when bear was doing some television transmission, or Gordon's job in those days, was to process the film that they were using, and they used to transmit direct from wet film. It used to be a column of liquid in the film we going up in one of Gordon's jobs, and Marian telling me was to sort of lay on the floor on any air bubbles bubbles going up, we would be tapping the glass tube at the bottom to break up the bubbles. So he was very highly technical, and never ever liked being in charge of a sales department. So then he persuaded me to stop all this travelling around that I was doing and come over and really take over that side of it and let him be the admin Traders boss to dead. That got me in very much personally it was the cinematographers of that day, they made me an associate BSC, which I enjoyed very much stood out. The lead people I had with now the younger lead people that I'd known were working in the control department, we're now taking over the control departments. And so we had known one another sort of grow up through this thing, which has an awful lot you would you would you see this happening all the way through that as the people went through their various companies went side by side, and which is extremely useful to have a good rapport with them. So I got it much more involved with all the labs, particularly the bigger ones, some of the smaller ones that started to fall by the wayside in the past, they haven't gone from others were having problems, and we're gonna go but hadn't quite gone. But there was still a lot more than there are now working. And then Gordon, retired, and I took over the whole of the operation. Just before, before he retired there about two years before he retired, this giant thing came along. I went out on that six months to your title knows we'll talk about retired now.

Roy Fowler  41:23  
No, I mean to take the

Dennis Kimbley  41:24  
time that then I was called sales operations manager. That was the title, just at this time as well. As I said, earlier, the motion picture is completely divorced from everything else. They had brought it into the Kodak fold filing, we now reported to sales director. But that says the right thing didn't get involved with us, we always considered outside the organisation.

Roy Fowler  41:49  
Was it a structured company in terms of targets,

Dennis Kimbley  41:54  
that it started to be it wasn't up until that point, but then started to be the targets were set. But they were also starting to evolve the system, which is as it is now, where there were about eight groups within the company who were encouraged to operate a separate businesses will have their own financial people their own advertising, or they might buy an advertising firm from outside. They will have any of the administrative groups that they can either buy the services within Kodak as it were, or gain using somewhere else. And they will work as a business unit. And I set up the business unit for for motion picture. And, again, we work very separately. And as we were fairly successful I had been from for many, many years again, nobody else interfered with this whatsoever. And I remember the chairman who retired a couple of years ago when he took over as chairman, he was seeing all the individuals and I known him again come up with him through the company so well I'm going to get involved with you at all, nobody else knows what you do, how you do it, what happens your motion picture, and we have no problem. So just get on with that. So even right up until today motion picture is still considered slightly apart from the rest of

Roy Fowler  43:13  
it sounds very cosy for

Dennis Kimbley  43:17  
Casey for motion picture,

Roy Fowler  43:18  
but the motion picture division, presumably as it is not internally compartmentalised. It has interchange,

Dennis Kimbley  43:25  
yes, it has. The other major thing that changed within the company, as well as it's a tremendous matrix system. It was decided that these business units worldwide were all come together. And they would be a worldwide motion picture. business division, Call it what you'd like, and that the head of that. So happened then would would be a man that was running the American Motion Picture side after them we'd all worked individually. Hence there's there's arguments for whether we're going to or not have a high speed film. So for all your administrative functions, in COVID-19, for example, and says setting the salaries and things like this for majority of people, that's all done on a local basis, a local company is expected to operate so they can show that it makes a profit. But the actual logistics and the workings of each individual group is now controlled by whoever the head of this of their particular group is. Most of them are anywhere but not all of them. So you've got a worldwide business structure, which is all Motion Picture all amateur are all graphic arts, all medical. And then mixed up with that matrix you've got the German company are also controlling that if you've, for example, if a business unit in this country wanted to take on more people, he would have to justify it best through its worldwide organisation and to its local head. Which is a bit difficult at times and time consuming. A strange way does seem to work.

Roy Fowler  45:06  
Yes. I will put another tape on

Roy Fowler  0:05  
It's Dennis Kimberly Tape two. That makes it some certainly rather unwieldy. But you say it works in practice. Does it require a lot of travelling for the executives? enjoyable? Yes.

Dennis Kimbley  0:18  
Oh, no, no, I mean, yes. I mean, when I was going around East Europe and Western want, as I said, well over half a year I was away. And because the age when you're doing that is very often when you're a young family. So I did find that difficult. But then when I've done the other job, the fan real grown up a bit, and it wasn't quite so bad. And they will walk controllable trips, and I wasn't away for such a long time, at a time. But yes, it did mean that you got to mean when I finished off, I was looking after the Kodak modied motion picture. But I was also on a committee of five that were in charge of all the motion picture activities in Europe. So all the other countries reported to that five of our house. So that was another bit of the matrix. And they had their own country. The worldwide organisation brought us five there, but we were part of the worldwide organisation. So their first contact with in Europe was us. And then we did all the work, reporting back and going to the States. All the things, but it did mean I've got to Hollywood a lot more than I will. Yes,

Roy Fowler  1:31  
we're talking about. I was wondering whether or not there are the lovely Kirk's like company planes and things or

Dennis Kimbley  1:39  
correct had company planes in the States. Which In fact, I went on several times. And the only time I went to the Oscar was going to Rochester and then picking up the company playing little tiny one and flying to Los Angeles to the Oscars. But otherwise, otherwise,

Roy Fowler  1:57  
you're lucky Oh, yeah.

Dennis Kimbley  2:00  
We had no company planes outside the states in the States. They've got their own and they bought, how do they do it

Roy Fowler  2:05  
nowadays? Is it more satellite hookups? It's not sure. Do they still?

Dennis Kimbley  2:11  
There's been lots of talk. And there's been lots of experiments, but it's never really come in. Occasionally they do this. I mean, if there's a big announcement being made in the state for the management, they will now do a satellite hookup on that. But there's not much two way sideline stuff going on. It's still cheaper fairly quickly to get people around

Roy Fowler  2:33  
smoke filled rooms.

Dennis Kimbley  2:35  
Unfortunately, no, in the states actually then no part of the factory offices is smoking allowed good for them. Not one wrong rate. In the UK, it was put to each group could decide whether they wanted to or not. Within the space. I said No, nobody does it.

Roy Fowler  2:56  
It's always I think admirable the way so many things unexpectedly, so in the states worked out that way. In

Dennis Kimbley  3:03  
fact, the whole of Rochester now. Every office in every company, there is no smoking area.

Roy Fowler  3:11  
But still not here.

Dennis Kimbley  3:12  
You don't really find anyone that complains either. I mean, the smoker might say something about, they weren't really complaining.

Roy Fowler  3:19  
This is why I mean, this really is a digression. But this is why I think it's so important to complain if one is affected by smoke, I'd become almost hysterical about it in restaurants.

Dennis Kimbley  3:27  
I've never smoked, so unfortunate. And we do notice it down here with people that Oh, yes, but you do. Yes.

Roy Fowler  3:35  
Yes. It seems to worsen with the years. When because more. So were politically correct on that score. So now of this period, who any special members key members, events that took place that no, I

Dennis Kimbley  3:56  
think there was so so so many. I've obviously been trying to think of some things but they're all tiny little small things. The main thing that I've had out of this is really enjoyment of being involved with the motion picture industry, even though you're from almost from the outside. But I have a great affinity with cinematographers. They're probably obvious when I was saying which is known why now still involved with them. It's a you know, it's an industry which is not large. Everybody knows everybody else. I mean, I couldn't walk into one lab one day without another lab knowing it because there be an aunt or an uncle or a lab you work in there and see me there I mentioned that I got very much involved with the BK SDS, British television society, which I still am on became its president for a time. But going into that as a young man. I mean, I put me in touch with what I would call all the great technicians that were around. And then, and you, it was the learning ground you really learned, what was going on and what could be done, what couldn't be done and the people to talk to you if you had problems because they all helped. And so I found that extremely, extremely useful them. And I think it's been the rest leave the scene of the people. I mean, you've met people like Charlie Chaplin when they when he was making his last film over here on the set of that for quite a lot. But great cinematographers, not just British ones, but others Victoria stereos, great frame now and to hear him talk home. He is talking about art all the time. I mean, he considers himself to be a painter with light. He really means it. He used to complain that he couldn't find anyone at Kodak apart from going code I get to these marvellous chap who could understand what he was talking about. So meeting him was it was a great privilege. And we've kept that that that relationship. I think it's all those little things that have happened. I can remember going on Stanley Kubrick set on 2001. And he had this downgrade we all hate as little as Armstrong had made it was this thing. No, that's been you standing there anytime. And he said, Oh, good. I haven't seen you for a few days. We've got this thing here. You've got any ideas of what how else we could use it. It's cost this amount of money. And we've already got it in this one scene and what I thought there was the Stanley Kubrick, this director sort of said almost anybody, how can we use this thing? I think things like that, like

Roy Fowler  6:41  
you visited the SERPs out of personal interest or for professional reasons. That's interesting that you saw what can just Hong Kong that's my shooting.

Dennis Kimbley  6:51  
I mean, that was amazing way that what was happening there because you have Mr. His family with all the kids around on the set almost every day, they will be sitting there and very often the children would interrupt something which is going to fail around and Marlon Brando and nobody worried. Because all he did was have a happy family occasion. Yes. And to see him, go on talk to Brando and do some business with him. Brand new immediately accepted is quite something.

Roy Fowler  7:24  
It's interesting for me that the last two films he made or I think disasterous film as their ideas that very little accomplishment. And it always seemed to me that the problem for him was moving out of his North libretto studio and suddenly having to work within a strictly commercial, yes, context, the clock ticking every year and only going up. Whereas before he just shoot whenever he wanted to shoot and reshoot and

Dennis Kimbley  7:57  
go back and redo it. So he was certainly a charming on the set.

Roy Fowler  8:03  
Yes. Do you have any special memories or anecdotes about him? Because he's one of the great,

Dennis Kimbley  8:09  
don't agree nearly drove over my foot once? Well, that's the case. He chatted with everybody. And it was just a privilege to be in working.

Roy Fowler  8:21  
How about Kubrick? another fascinating

Dennis Kimbley  8:23  
Kubrick was still is a very interesting character, because he is totally meticulous in everything that he does. I mean, for example, I had to do a whole lot of work with him of he wanted to know, the temperatures of affected temperatures, humidities, and it's all published, but he wanted to know data, and then discover what he wanted to do. And he discussed this was that he was he wanted to make sure that when he transported his day's work to the lab, that it would not be upset by any temperature changes, or humidity changes in its journey from the studio or location to the lab. And he managed to get hold of a refrigerated truck. And again, I wish I could make sure the temperature was absolutely right. And I have no problems and humidity is right as well. And all his material was transported from the studio to the lab in that truck. That's the sort of lens that he used to go to.

Roy Fowler  9:30  
Was he just carrying on a bit or was

Dennis Kimbley  9:33  
he impression that he was but you're used to have the back of your mind Really? Nobody else? Does. This isn't necessary to do it. No wonder he is ready to end it perfect. But he seems to be totally genuine wanted.

Roy Fowler  9:48  
Well, I think he's obsessive in some ways, isn't he? But the fact is that especially on 2001 he really wrote the modern day book. We didn't have a guess

Unknown Speaker  9:56  
he did.

Dennis Kimbley  9:59  
Use some 16 mill reversal film cover film in that as well, to do some of the shop, I mean the lots of the world, PCs around the world little personal computers around that he could use there. And so he had to simulate a lot of these screens or coming up with information. And he, he didn't like what he was getting sued for conventional methods. So we sat down one day to discuss it, we had a phone call ektachrome er, then which is really a fast reversal film, which was going to be used in television, news when colour came along, and the southern wine co was there. And it was a dreadful film. It really was a pretty rotten film, but it's nothing else available. It was the only thing available. So we discussed using the mic at the effect that he wanted, by using this material. As it Geoffrey Unsworth he was he was thinking. Yes, I think it was. Anyway, whoever it was, I discussed this. It's in the next couple of days later I go on, go on to the set. And some of that so it was Jeff as soon as I walked on this as Jeffrey wants to see you. So I find out about the agenda. Is it? Are you the bastard that suggests that we should use extra crummy office sessions such as? Yeah. Didn't you tell me as well? It is a grateful for. So now it is a net is but you wanted? This information came out on the screen. He wants it degraded. He doesn't want it to look good. Anyway, he shot it on that. And then in the agreed it was it was the film that was would do it. And didn't have to play around with each shot. So bad It looked right. Do you remember the sequence which it was so adjusted some of the loss of that it was used in numbers of sequences, it was used in a lot of the shots with the information coming up? Didn't want to look as if it was animated and sharp and whatnot, he didn't feel that it would be sharp

Roy Fowler  11:55  
transmitted over distance. Yes. I love that film.

Dennis Kimbley  12:00  
Yeah. There's another bit on that if it was worked, and it was it was true when I was told it was there was a great sheet of arm about that sick thing. Little tiny little holes in it. And it was out, shoved out in the back, just laying on us on on one day. And I said What's this doing here? And he said, Oh, that's what Danny was going to use four shots of the night sky, shine light through all the holes, and you would get these little twinkling stars. And that was worked out the sickness as the same would give you the right angles and twinkles and whatnot. As well as it lay in here then Sure, well, it's it's yours. We had to make another one. So why I said, because the people who made this, this is the night sky for us. So they've thrown it out.

Unknown Speaker  12:58  
But he's

Dennis Kimbley  13:01  
he's a man that works again with people that he knows and he can trust. So he will always insist on particular person from the lab be involved. He will audiences on particular personal and Kodak been involved with any contact with him. It used to be myself. And then it was a colleague of mine. Tony Isles, who is excellent. He just retired a couple of weeks ago from Kodak. And you always had to be the same people that he knew he could trust and he knew that he'd get the right answers that he didn't try and call him.

Roy Fowler  13:35  
The driven man that kind of quite extraordinary and his accomplishments. You mentioned Desmond Dickinson way, way back, who again was a very accomplished dp in his day

Dennis Kimbley  13:49  
ended up to directing

Roy Fowler  13:53  
quite a few of them at one time or another did Jakarta for Jaguar do funny name going? off the crab? So you're going all the way back?

Dennis Kimbley  14:03  
Even for the young ones?

Unknown Speaker  14:04  
Yes. Yes.

Dennis Kimbley  14:07  
Yes. Desmond Dickinson. Oh, it was another one that I knew in the black and white days, mostly. And the great thing I've always found with practically every cinematographer, I knew they were always the gentleman. I mean, they were the boss on the set. I mean, everything was revolving around them, they always had time to discuss something, I'll tell you what they were doing. If you ask them, why are you doing that? They might say, Wait 10 minutes, I'll tell you why they were totally but they will always be willing to discuss things. They always wanted to know about products and what progress was being made on it. And they will always even check out they were going to do something saying Do you think this is going to be possible? And he was saying well, you must have much more experience on this and I said yes, but you know what the product can do pass on the weekends. Let's discuss it. And that I felt was was absolutely tremendous. And they gave me a great deal of confidence in my early days.

Roy Fowler  15:09  
Did you feel you contributed specifically to films or emotions? No, I

Dennis Kimbley  15:13  
don't think so I think you will view there's nothing that wouldn't have been done if it had suggested.

Roy Fowler  15:23  
Coming back to, as it were the mainstream the subsequent career that you had within Kodak, how do that? Because

Dennis Kimbley  15:33  
why does this great deal of change going on in Kodak, just after I took over the motion picture here, and with this worldwide organisation going on the slow but some definite recognition by the bosses in the states that they've got to change their act, the world was changing, and kind of by the start changing as well. And there were several attempts to do that as I started talking about making the elephant dance. So it was all in the right direction. Most of it was rather not too late, but later than it should have been. But none of it was strong enough and fast enough. Great changes were made definite feel for people within Kodak but they could no longer even if they really hadn't realised that they were doing it dictate and anymore. There were other people there who could produce products. There were cinematographers that didn't want to use Kodak wanted to use Fuji in a crowd because they liked it better. remember some of my which I thought were friends with our friends, of course, but it was saying what it doesn't say your phone doesn't suit what I'm trying to achieve on this site. We're not gonna do it.

Roy Fowler  16:47  
Did you feel that don't know?

Dennis Kimbley  16:49  
Not really. I mean, David Putnam was was a case I mentioned Charlie Parkhouse, who taught me whatever I know about sound recording. David Pakman. Charlie podcast was his godfather. They lived next door to one another or something even before he joined the film industry. In fact, on Charlie's funeral, there are only about five people there. I was wanting David Puttnam. And David Puttnam always use Kodak material, except I think it was emotional. And you can man say, cinema photographer doesn't want to use Kodak material. Because what we're asking him to do, he feels he could achieve that on such and such a stock of aggregate ones. And so we're not going to use it. But not usually. But that's the reason why. So the fact that he taken the trouble and phone through and say that was fine. I completely agreed with him for cinematographers not happy I wants to use something. And he's not allowed to do it. And he's not going to be happy. I mean, everything is going to be wrong with every shot, he gets back from the lab, and he's never going to accept it. And it'd be really stupid for a producer to insist. So no, there is no no problems at all, I've always had a very good relationship was the Fuji in the act for people. In fact, many of them Fuji for example, and they were all ex Kodak. Anyway, that was the other thing that happened a great deal with people that work with with me, or I work with them. Whenever we looked on to look at it. A large number of them went out into the industry mostly into labs. So you've got people in technical people rank people running formatic Labs. Give a case people at Soho images, all x Kodak and received all their training for a number of years

Roy Fowler  18:48  
rather like the BBC could train and train people.

Dennis Kimbley  18:52  
Yeah. Kodak were very good at training people. We also still have our own marketing Education Centre. It's called recruit brand name. Well that is an area where there's up to date equipment, where a product can be used by customers and by staff. to train them how to use it. It's still affordable

Roy Fowler  19:15  
is it for the company

Dennis Kimbley  19:16  
it's cut that we used to have a separate centre that has just been closed. But in fact the motion picture was there only a couple of nights ago just to show me what they've done and they've done extremely good job. They've moved it into the main head office are taking over the area that used to be Lloyds Bank bank approved out, made that information picture area. I just got all of the submitters they need done that. We had a an indoor cinema for the staff, which mine was being built in my predecessors days and he wouldn't authorise cash to be spent on a certified mental projector. So it was just 16 But fortunately, I was able to get that chain ground and then now I've got 35 object and so staff at DC films, but also that can be used also as quite a good theatre, quite a good theatre for when they have VPS want to come in and shoot some film before they go on a shoot and try out Sunday prayers, more makeup or whatever. And then they can go and see the film under a reasonably good condition which they couldn't do a few years ago. The other thing that we changed a lot during my time was the firm's the demonstration films that Kodak and others used to make for their product, which well, well shine the best parts of the phone, you know, when no way where does show anything, which

Roy Fowler  20:40  
was a little suspicious, we managed to

Dennis Kimbley  20:45  
stop them just being straightforward. This is because I was interested in straightforward technical films, but made them into stories. And for example, we had BBC and something other television people use a new products, a training exercise for a director. And so it didn't cost us anything to make. But he would go and shoot a small story that he was interested in, actually using it under whatever conditions we needed to. And then in addition to that, with the vendor, a whole range of technical things, which in fact, would show the limitations of the film. That was obviously appreciated in the end, because there's always complaints, but you will always share everything under ideal conditions. No, we don't have that facility. Very often when we're shooting we have to issue particularly, it's the television after shooting conditions, which are not less than news. So that was a big change round. And now, what I tried to do, but never got through in the end, but now happening is this facility where they've actually gone through some film themselves. We used to give film out to all sorts of people and let them shoot as but now they have a facility of of doing that in house if they need if they want to.

Roy Fowler  22:00  
In a way it sounds as if there's a great equanimity to to your careers, steady progression, and luckily, no great dramas.

Dennis Kimbley  22:10  
No, I haven't been I've been extremely lucky that way. I've done what I wanted to do what I wanted to be involved in right from the start. Not too many people are supposed to get that opportunity. I still I mean, remember, when I retired three years ago, Bessie gave him one of their Sunday lunches down at Shepperton. I was the guest of honour. And I got there and I said something about that I was frustrated cinematographer. And I sat down and Ronnie Taylor was in presidency. And he meant it. I always guessed you wanted to talk show? Yes. So because you always talk the right language. And you always agree with us when we say something something quick and at least in rest, he was staff and the others don't don't view it that way. And I loved him so much.

Roy Fowler  22:58  
But would you have had it different now? No, I,

Dennis Kimbley  23:02  
I think I was at the right place.

Roy Fowler  23:04  
Because in some ways, you've had the benefits of both sides of it. And

Dennis Kimbley  23:07  
I'm very fortunate now, now that I've retired, still very much involved with the industry. At least for another couple of weeks I chaired on an international film school. I've done that for nine years now. And I just hand it over to someone else next week. I share the border management for the British film video classification sensors. I'm a director of the children's film unit, which is a great pleasure. The children's film unit is a unit where children between nine and 16 years old actually make a feature film.

Unknown Speaker  23:43  
Yes, yes, yes.

Dennis Kimbley  23:44  
I got involved with Colin filburn when he was who was the director of that when he was a school teacher. Rose getting the phone me at Kodak one day and said he got this school unit making films and they want to do even more and branch out and cook Kollek helps I went down to see him when we got on extremely well together. And then he gave up school teaching because this thing got so large, you have to do pretty well full time. And then went on his board that he set up for this company running it.

Roy Fowler  24:14  
Yes, a friend of mine and his son were involved in that a little while back. He's got odd and young Ben. Remember that? Yes, yes. Yeah. So it was a problem for them coming coming up. Yes, to turn for it. But peace, especially you know, thoroughly enjoyed being advocated.

Dennis Kimbley  24:33  
For workshops. We've made a 1790 minute feature film for the last 12 years now every year.

Roy Fowler  24:41  
They do astonishingly well. Watch the channel four in

Dennis Kimbley  24:45  
a row primarily to sew up the awareness and Evening Standard came in with 25,000 pounds last year, another 25 this year to help and because we have to be the staff of two provinces running Would your name partner and you don't really start getting the money in to help pay for that until you start the shooting channel for the most of our films. So you've got a period of the year where actually no money coming in. And so we have you have to find some money from sponsorship to cover that period

Roy Fowler  25:20  
during the kids generally want to go on to professional careers, or is it just many

Unknown Speaker  25:24  
of them when

Dennis Kimbley  25:24  
they first come? I suppose 90% of them want to, while the time they've finished with us, you've probably got about 30%. And you can usually pick those 30% out when they start, but the ones that are going to go in the industry. I mean, we have a young lad at the moment, his father's in the business commercials. He's He's 15. And he could actually go in and produce the film now. And he's not pushy, but he's you know, he's not a noxious at all. He's a very nice young man. But there's no question about it. But he is he is going to be a producer in a few years time. So it's not professional actors and whatnot that come down what was the last couple years when he's been involved, also, I've got to be very nice to Mark 13. And I will say the same He said he'll be giving me a job in a few years time. And he's absolutely amazing. He just written a report for us on the workshops, which is magnificent job. We had the Royal premiere, and he said, a few of us would like to actually video the whole event, you see. So he said fine yoga, and he said don't worry about equipment, you know, I'm going to be able to get the equipment around, I've got some promises of London equipment, top class video equipment, they all turned up an evening clothes, and read your manual and had to borrow a pair of trousers here, jacket there and whatnot. And they shot this and they and they got a professional editor to work with them overnight, they made a speech, Mark made a speech at this function, which is far better than the Evening Standard managing directors speech and 10 times better than principled speech. When God did this, they edited over that night. And by the next morning, they had a nice little finished video which could have gone on in that day. And they did that entirely themselves. They didn't want any of the rest of us involved in

Roy Fowler  27:21  
that kind of assurance is rather scary.

Dennis Kimbley  27:24  
Well, it is exciting. It's Oh, it is exactly what you're right, it is scary. And we've got about four of them like that now, and some have gone into the industry now without keeping in touch with them. The over sixteens have formed themselves into another little group, those that really want to get into the industry. So they carry on another couple of years, using our facilities and everything, but getting their own money together. And they tend to shoot a five minute 35 minute film, which they then want to use as their sort of show reel to try and get into film school or something like that, I'll get a job. So it's been extremely worthwhile that operation.

Roy Fowler  28:05  
One just hopes there is some kind of viable industry. Because in although it was I think very difficult for people of our generation to break in Nevertheless, there was a kind of coherent in no longer. Which brings me back to I did want to ask you one question about Kodak. I said it seemed to indicate a great deal of equanimity about boardroom politics was was was there any no

Dennis Kimbley  28:34  
being fairly devoid of that? Is the board right up in limited still is just trying to think make sure I've got this right. Yes, it still is. All employees that have come up through the company are on the board. I don't think there's even an American on the board at the moment. So they it's much more through these business units controlled by the states now the actual day to day operations. So the board's responsibility is far less than it used to be.

Roy Fowler  29:15  
But the accountants have been taken over by the world the

Dennis Kimbley  29:18  
chair current chairman's accounting Chairman before him as an accountant. So, yes,

Unknown Speaker  29:24  
I have I think

Dennis Kimbley  29:26  
what's happened in the states very recently is that the chief executive officer stepped down and someone from outside the industry, totally, or real high flyer has been into some very big companies in the states and pulled them out of problems has has come in to take over and that is the first time and it's history.

Roy Fowler  29:52  
How does Kodak see the future reducing because their traditional technology is certainly not on It's way out. But it's being challenged at the SI electronic

Dennis Kimbley  30:05  
codec see themselves as leaders in imaging, they've, they've changed from seeing themselves as a photographic company, which was one of the problems in a way. But it is a strength also, I mean, they really do have a great deal of expertise in that. But they now see themselves into imaging, whatever it may be, for example, you'll see now many people with our own PC is are using the Kodak photo software, and CD ROMs. Because you can now and you know, I'm sure, if you take your pictures in your camera and go to a number of processes will also give you a CD ROM, you pay for it as with the pictures on as well, which you can run for your television that's growing quite strongly in professional fields, particularly the libraries and things like that. And you can manipulate those pictures as well, of course, so Kodak now have a suneet on I think it's called Operation which I was working on before I left. And there's now actually out there in use, well, you can take your motion picture negative along and have it, bits of it, whatever bits you want digitised. And of course, once you've done that, you can manipulate it all sorts of things. The picture does lie.

Roy Fowler  31:23  
Yes, yes. Yes, all those non existent dinosaurs if nothing else

Dennis Kimbley  31:31  
tried. They've certainly got into that they are very much into that in the in the medical side, as well. And into the graphic art side with traditional ways of printing have been changing for such a long time. Big changes there, I think the average aside, will last a long time as sort of a highlight. Because it's, it's pretty simple. They don't necessarily want your picture immediately. I mean, you can if you want to do that, of course with Polaroid, then you go with us before you're stupid. But it isn't absolutely necessary, there's still that there's still a little bit of excitement of going into the chemistry or wherever it isn't picking up a princess in the room. Right. Once you've taken

Roy Fowler  32:18  
you make it again, that's almost a vanished theory, isn't it? Because it's all these is a street machine. Yeah.

Dennis Kimbley  32:29  
Lots of those around, but not that cheap. Well, my wife also works in the pharmacy. And she hasn't been doing that too long, but a couple years now. And she says that it's amazing the number of people will come in with their films and give them into them. I mean, all they do is put him in a sack, wait for the channel collector and bring them back a couple of days later. But of course, they pick up with them from sales very well. And people who don't want their prints down, because it's fine. So you haven't done it now. But you've got to get back to pick them up anyway. But the best people say, Well, I'll put a B now I collect on tomorrow.

Roy Fowler  33:13  
Yes. I'm going to pick up the new four. Do you have any crystal ball prognostications about what's gonna happen?

Dennis Kimbley  33:24  
Well, I'm always an optimist in the British film industry. I mean, one of the other things, I need an awful lot of people because I'm also president of the cinema and television veterans. At the moment. So means an awful lot of not only people that have been in the business a long time and have now retire, but people that are still in the business. So I'm terribly optimistic that I just feel that British film industry can't disappear because it has so much to offer. I'm encouraged at the moment that there seems to be more activities around but then you have to be careful about what you mean by activities. I mean, you have television, on chat shows and on Pinewood stages and things like that. Great mate of mine is now running Pinewood. But those are always in need for films for the cinema, and films for television. I say films, it could be tape or film, but there's always a need for dramas if you like, as there's always a need for dramatic series, I think they are still one of the most popular things that people want to see. And if they can get what they want to see that will continue again, why not have the chance of the people running those stations, particularly television, so the thrust is going to come mainly from there. Don't allow them to have those because of the economic reasons. But I think there's always going to be a demand

Interviewer  34:51  
for the dramas

Dennis Kimbley  34:54  
and it will continue what will happen eventually, I guess There will be electronic distribution of programmes. I'm not so sure how fast the electronic making of programmes actually take them on set. I mean, it's growing. It's still very, very small and it's growing. But film, strangely enough, has improved dramatically over the last 10 years and even more so the last five years and its quality. So electronics are always chasing that quality. And also argue that once you reach a certain level of quality, is anyone going to see any improvement after that? The general public there is any point in going further than that. So there probably isn't. So the two will gradually come together. But the ease of using the simplicity of use in the film camera is still there. I mean, the number of people that have gone off to shoot on electronics and then realise all the problems are around with the fiddly things you have to do to shoot with it. Come back to film, the editing is still simpler on film on if you want to put it on tape as well. There's all the facilities of doing marrying the two together and playing around with whatever, manipulating images that you could only do at one time with difficulty on film when were these on tape. So they're available for film and TV. But I still feel that best films come out where an editor sits down and Lahnstein back and cuts doorframe.

Roy Fowler  36:33  
There is I don't know if it's a generational thing. But there is that feeling that film is the real thing.

Dennis Kimbley  36:39  
Well, as I said, I'm chairman of the International Film School. And that's a very expensive School, which worries me because, you know, it's only people that can get grants from local authorities or people that have got money in some way or another can get them and it was other people too. But nevertheless, the students who come there come because they want to make programmes in film we have tried. And indeed, nowadays CTT is insistent on validation that we do electronic patient as well. And that the students are not interested. They come there because they know it's a film school. And they want to shoot on film and they want to shoot on 35 mil films. Well, I'm not saying Yes. How long that will last? I don't know.

Roy Fowler  37:26  
It's emotional. I do think they all want to be Spielberg and really don't want it to be David Gryphon. Well, yes. Is there a

Dennis Kimbley  37:36  
interesting enough that used to be I mean, London's National Film School does not specialise in turning out directors, producers, cameraman, whatever, everyone has to do everything. So they come out with a reasonable knowledge of all the all the disciplines, unlike some film schools, who will someone goes out because they want to be a director, and they'll follow through as a director that doesn't have with us. And there used to be this field that where if you really wanted to get on somewhere in that field, you became a film director because films carry the director's name above everybody else's. And there's the director. That's what I've seen in the in the last few years now are more youngsters coming in, who are interested in being producers, which hadn't had the glamour of the rest of it up till then. But they feel that that is the only way they're going to really get into the business into the industry is for them themselves to become producers. And sit in on this. Go to Great Britain group, whether editors, cinematographers, production, accountants, production executives, whatnot. And by and large, they're all people getting towards the end of them, their working lives, if you like, or they've worked in the industry for many, many, many years. They are finding it difficult to get work, because many of the production companies now that come out are youngsters, who formed a production company and then employing they're all they're all colleagues from the film schools. Not the older experience people. So it's small, but there's definite change there. And I think that is a product of people still wanting to to make films find it extremely difficult to get into established filmmaking area. So Alright, but start on our own.

Roy Fowler  39:39  
Yes, yes. And again. It's such an unsettled time from from technical and structural points of view. I think that nobody quite knows I will.

Dennis Kimbley  39:53  
Certainly there's no encouragement from President government in the UK. of the phones at all.

Roy Fowler  39:58  
No, that always baffles me, it mystifies me that there isn't that concept of film as as a cultural medium there never has been. But they don't even take it seriously as an industry which again is so unlike the United States where, yes, the nppa office is in Washington it isn't in Los Angeles because it's it's a vital part of the American export.

Dennis Kimbley  40:30  
But also the interesting thing is if we if we look at one side of the industry in the States, which is the production of release prints in cinema, and when that is practically owned by UK companies, technicolour is owned by Colton, and Deluxe labs and film house in Toronto, which is another one of the bigger ones now is owned by rank. So the majority released print throughout the world of American films are produced by labs which are owned by British companies.

Roy Fowler  41:03  
Yes, yes. But sadly, not the satellite here

Dennis Kimbley  41:06  
except rank still do run. Latvia, and Carlson still run technicolour here as well.

Roy Fowler  41:13  
I do find it annoying, though, to go and see a film that's just open. And it's obviously an important print

Dennis Kimbley  41:21  
large number of years now.

Roy Fowler  41:23  
Well, it must be heartbreaking for you to see the disappearance of all those ones glorious orators.

Dennis Kimbley  41:30  
Indeed, the when you had a good release over here, and much of the European release printing used to be done here, as well as a fact still is, in some cases, it will be 1000 1200 prints a time. Now you talk about a film and apart from the really big ones, you may get 30 friends, maybe even less,

Roy Fowler  41:56  
returning to your extra crew, if not extra curricular that they're all these other things now that you you do and there's a multiplicity of them, I must say which is you always invidious to ask which is your favourite, but which areas do you enjoy? What do

Dennis Kimbley  42:12  
you think's the children's film unit one because it's a very worthwhile scene because of the enthusiasm and the dedication of the kids and professional way they work. Another thing that I've been involved with now for see how many years 20 years is the wildlife filmmakers symposium, which is run every two years, big sts started this. And what it is, is that we get together on a worldwide basis now became international some years ago. All the not all, but a large number of the wildlife. And nowadays, conservation environmental filmmakers that are around together for about a week, usually on a university campus or college campus. And they have papers, they have workshops, they have master classes, they have a small exhibition, dedicated sort of equipment or whatnot for them. And the issue of not just technical points of how this was done, or how you could do it. But you know, is it right that we should be making this sort of film? Is it right that there is music in it? Should we have natural sounds? Should you put in fact, pre recorded noises of animals because you got the right noise for when you actually took the picture. So this sort of issue comes up all the time. That is something which I've been very much involved with. We finished one last year, so we won't do too well for another year, two years. But the BBC. So I've Anglia and Central Television plus some other sponsors have been running a wildscreen Film Festival every other year, a competitive Film Festival and we've now gone into partnership with them for this year. So we're running the two events as one event together down in Bristol in October this year. So that's taken a bit of time at the moment. hit return

Dennis Kimbley  1:24  
So it's an area which obviously I got involved with because I was, again interested in Blackpool things wildlife, and it's gone and their conservation. So I've continued that since I, since I retired. But it takes up, as I say quite a bit of time. But again, it's something worthwhile because no question about it people that can't get a great deal out of it. And I think we'll cover the environmental films which will come out of come out not just as consequences of that, but definitely It has been an input through that symposium that if we are not careful, we won't be much point in making wildlife films was there won't be any

Roy Fowler  2:07  
you're very generous with with with your time and what my wife says.

Unknown Speaker  2:14  
Just those very words, clearly.

Roy Fowler  2:17  
But it's it's clear that you obviously devote an enormous amount of time to good work, as

Dennis Kimbley  2:24  
I say, to her in which he accepts, I wouldn't be doing it if I didn't enjoy doing it and found that I was worthwhile to do.

Roy Fowler  2:32  
Do you think that's partly because you must have worked under great pressure previously. And it's kind of essential in retirement?

Dennis Kimbley  2:38  
I think so. But I mean, I've always sort of plan for retirement, I've seen too many people I'm sure we all have, who don't have any interest other than their work, or when they retire or out. So not only have I had the interests of the motion picture industry in many facets of it, which I can able to continue to have. But I've also made sure that I've still kept up my involvement was amateur drama, but I'm directing play for another group at the moment. And I play a little bit of golf as well as relaxation, but I was playing that I would be make sure that I was doing those things. I also, again was us my interest in the theatre and the cinnamal dabble in books on the theatre in the cinema. Most of them are keep but I suppose to be set in South, which I don't often do. But I got a very big collection of those now which I get involved with other people that are involved in that business as well. Sometimes I say why am I doing all this? You know, then I thought well, what would I be doing if I wasn't doing this, continue to do a get involved store with BK SDS, I'm not on their council now. Because produced six years is a stretch, you have to come off for at least a year and I just do my years old. But that's a society which is going through a big change at the moment. And there's been a lot of attention, the big change being the change of big companies, to freelance people in the industry. And it's easy to keep a society or anything going when there's big companies around who will pay in a couple of 1000 pounds to help and pay for their employees to be members. But when it's freelance it's not so easy. Yeah. You lose the few 1000 pounds but you're also got to give good value for people to be a member.

Roy Fowler  4:31  
Well, this place is certainly going through that particular problem the BBC the same Yeah. And ITV is a lost cause in many ways. Yes. For someone of my generation, and my mommy I wonder past work experience is very depressing. But I suppose somehow the human spirit will prevail or survive in some fashion.

Dennis Kimbley  5:00  
Over the film school involved with children's film we're also involved with adoptive students scheme are aware of that one, which was really started by Colleen Boise have been Harlech television HGTV as a way of effective in the way of some of the television companies to get a good look at some really top class students. What they do is that they will they get industry companies in the industry, suppliers mostly to adopt a student Korea with a 500 pound grant, which goes to the students college is supposed to help with the student. Plus, they act as the Godfather, as it were to that student, introducing him or her to other people in the industry as companies, if they're making a film as part of their course. And they help in some way with that. And that's been going now about 10 years, maybe more. And I forget how many students you've got on the books now, but it is still going. And it is very worthwhile again to do but what worries me Are those three particular activities is something you mentioned earlier on, is there going to be something at the end of it? For those people are obviously isn't for all of them? And then how many? And should you keep living couraging be able to go ahead on this nine that maybe the prospects at the end are not very great. And one thing you have to do is to keep pointing that out enthusiam enthusiastic ones, don't want to know, they know in their heart that that's the thing, but they're going to be the one that's going to make it they may feel. But it is I think a bit of a dilemma in providing all this training, providing all this outlet for enthusiasm. Now that it might be difficult at the end for anyone to export news.

Roy Fowler  6:55  
There's one thing that watching television, certainly and to some extent them a few motion pictures get made in this country, there seems frequently to my eye, a loss of standards or degradation of standards, wood wood, it's the loss of the old techniques as we understood them.

Dennis Kimbley  7:12  
I think they're I think there is a loss, I think you're mentioned young production companies, usually young people, they're totally inexperienced people, they haven't even had the opportunity to work in side by side with an experienced person picking out what he or she does. There are a numbers as we know, I guess you do too, for the union of young directors, also acting as their own cameraman, or their own camera operator. And again, that means that the experience, camera operators are not imparting that experience, whether it's just by being together with the person to those people. And so I find it very wine that we are growing up a generation of people will have a call on their own experience, but won't have too much information from other people who have been doing it for a long time and maybe doing it in a different way. And they're going to lose out on that. And I think at the end of the day, it will mean that the standard will be down.

Roy Fowler  8:18  
Well, I think the infirmed attitude of people of our generation was that, you know, you first of all, you learn the rulebook, and then you would throw it away. But nowadays, I printed mobile and to my eye, most of its illiterate in

Dennis Kimbley  8:34  
and I think it's if it's necessary, it's easier nowadays to put mistakes, right? You the few take film and tape as well as latitude on it, as mentioned earlier is great, you can make a lot of mistakes and exposure and still get away with it. But that's what you're doing. You're getting away with it, you're not getting the best out of it. Because you haven't got the right tonal range or something on it, but it's good enough. So you use it. And I think that goes through the whole of the process. Now if you process a feel now that hardly any mistakes are made in processing because it's all electronic truggy controlled by the printing of these the film stocks enter the actual chemical process. Everything is controlled right down. So there's hardly any mistakes are made there. Even if you've made a mistake, once you've got the film processed, you can now digitise your information and take that mistake out if you want to. If you've got something in the picture that you don't want to take it out on.

Roy Fowler  9:37  
The American cinematographer turned up this morning and I was reading an article while I was travelling. Already they're talking about created creating actors. Yeah, not

Dennis Kimbley  9:48  
absolutely right. Yes. word for limit order is now getting to the point where they're putting in as you say, act as an images which are totally real.

Roy Fowler  10:02  
In Hammersmith, at the Novotel friend and I went to, there's a virtual reality exhibition this week. And I was dying to put on one of those headgears. But after the people have been putting them on, I was extremely excited. Just watching things on the monitor and one 3d display they really is gain is it's crude, it's rudimentary in terms of where they're at now, that's what the future holds.

Dennis Kimbley  10:27  
But they did show it on TV, how far this is progressing. And they showed a company in the states in California, who were taking us through what was year, I think it was something like a five, quite large five square mile piece of terrain. And they could take you anywhere in there give you any view of it. And they just showed a bit of it. And it was really, it wasn't some computer graphics, quality. It was almost picture. But they were saying that this would not be good enough quality to go on a motion picture film or anything like that yet, but we've only just started here. And this is what can, can now be done today. So they're saying, in just a few years time, this will be available, and you will be able to then shove in your actors as well. And they then showed they said, you don't really have to have a real live actor because you can have Joe here, and it's true walking all doing all these actions. Perfectly, normal, straightforward person because it's all based on somebody not on again on computer.

Roy Fowler  11:38  
Well, you could do the chariot race from Ben Hur, for example, without any extras now, block them indigenously.

Dennis Kimbley  11:45  
I mean, the reason it hasn't gone that far yet is the amount of memory you need on these things. But the amount of memory that's now available on becoming available is absolutely fantastic.

Roy Fowler  11:55  
Well, I was thinking the other day that it's, what, 10 years, 15 years that Clive Sinclair introduced his little, I had a one kilobyte memory. So

Dennis Kimbley  12:06  
I started with a computer when the BBC introduced it, and that was 16k. And that was a tremendous leap forward. Then you can up it to 32k. But if I tried to do I do now, on my computer at home with 32k we can get anywhere we need to get the programme loaded.

Roy Fowler  12:21  
Well, mid 50s. I was working for CBS in the States. And I remember the first computer which was payroll only Avast thermionic valve operators in an air conditioned room and enormous space. And I think its capacity again was 15k. Now

Dennis Kimbley  12:40  
remember working with Leo wasn't it was the big computer which Lyons? Yes. Which most companies is coda, including we're doing all their payrolls on one, I used to take everything up with punch cards, and they would do it all for you and bring it all back. That's what you did. And I went to London Business School on a course. And they had contacts at that time, terminals for that time, linking up to Leo. And late at night and weekends, the school were able to use it. And I remember it was residential course it's at weekends, he went home. And I remember on three occasions during the course going back just to play with the computer and joining the queue with the rest of the people they were waiting just to play with. And you couldn't do a great deal with it. But we also have absolutely wonderful marvellous

Roy Fowler  13:30  
well arise me of something awesome wells is supposed to said when he arrived in rk o in 1940. He looked around he said, this is the greatest electric train, Oh, boy. I think computers is that. But it worries me that in this era of the camcorder. You know, young people pick them up and in seven days, if they haven't dropped the bloody thing. They're calling themselves the director and the camera. one sees especially in the circle youth programming, the appalling product that comes out. Anyway, we are Cassandra's that way. Other areas that we haven't touched on and that we should have done.

Dennis Kimbley  14:15  
I don't think so. It's been like so far ranging. I think that sort of covers what I've done and where I've been and what my feelings on the whole of the industry. Most Interesting.

Roy Fowler  14:27  
I you know, I'm absolutely impressed by your current activities. And the fact you I gotta say this for whoever's listening, you look so useful. 2020 years younger than what I assume your age.

Dennis Kimbley  14:41  
I guess you got interested, do you?

Roy Fowler  14:45  
Oh, yes, yes. And it's absolutely essential, otherwise this vegetating? Well, I do thank you immensely. conclude that right