Dave Robson 0:00
racter The subject is Richard Marden, documentary and Feature Film Editor. He has also worked in sound department interviewed by John Legard, the date is 17 to January 1996. This is side one, and it's file number 361.
Alan Legard 0:29
Dick. Now, perhaps you could start off by telling us a little bit about your very early life all your focus and your childhood. Assume so on.
Richard Marden 0:37
Yes, well, my parents basically came from the West Country, my father worked the GEC and he was a factory manager in a glassworks, basically at Wembley where there was a big glassworks. There was another one up in Newcastle and some other ones and Hammersmith and Charlton. And he used to really work around those. And I went to first of all to school. School actually went to Grammar School for Girls, and I was in the kindergarten Oh, yes, I started school like that. And the girl yeah, I started kindergarten, I don't think I learned anything. And then I was taken away, I went to a private school called King school Harrow which eventually turned out to be my prep school. Because when I was about 13, I found that also having discovered that really wasn't learning anything very well took me away from that. And I went to high gates, where I stayed until I was eighteen fairly interested in films, goes back a very long way. Because when I was about four or five, I was given the little magic lantern, which had little Disney lantern slides and so on, my brother was given the hand turn cinematograph, my brother is five years older now. And it performed the Cinematic Arts who bought a toy shop and the film that to use the bits of 35 mil that you could also buy in the toy shop. Really, it was quite, it had nothing other than the fact that you turned the handle, you had a little that, I think, four volt bulb or something, you could project it onto this wall. And the fascinating thing was it moved. And my lanten slide didn't. But I was fascinated by the fact of, I suppose, storytelling in somewhere and I didn't understand that at the time. And one day, the cinematograph broke out and my brother was a bit upset I was more upset than he was. And I caught my father saying to him, if you're a very good boy, I'll give you a pathescope, which was a 9.5 patheescope projector for your birthday. Now I knew George wouldn't be interested because he got out with he's got to have a railway track. So I got hold of pa and said if I'm a very good boy, could I have a projector for my birthday and he saidmwe willl see somewhere around about the age of five or six. I was given this little pathe scope kid bantam projector which showed 60 feet and 30 foot cassettes. I can't think they will call cassettes or charges as we call them, I think or whatever they were of little excerpts of Chaplin films, all sorts of films from all over mostly European classics, which have been edited down. Also, you could buy a few per attachment, which meant that you could run 300 foot and 200 foot rolls. So that meant that you were then able to get hold of longer films, which you could if you join the library and I joined much later Wallace Heaton library in Bond Street.
Alan Legard 3:53
There was also another very good library provided pathescope film call the amateur cine service, down in Bromley
Richard Marden 4:00
That's right. Yes. And for
Alan Legard 4:01
44 Wigmore road Bromley Kent,
Richard Marden 4:04
and another one that was called the Laurel film services somewhere in Cranford, I think if I remember right there, I heard it. somewhere. From we're about about seven, I met up with my oldest friend who been assessing, John knows you may Godfrey Jenice. And we've been great friends ever since that time, we're just about 19 35. And we discovered that he also had a pathescope kid. We also discovered over a period of time we acquired the he discovered the fact that we botht had toy theatres. And gradually this whole thing built up into an obsession in a way
with movies, our hobby
shows and anything to slightly to the despair of my father and mother because that was that because my father who was very good man but he thought Had no connection to the film world and thought it was rather fast. And he was a scientfic frame of mind, but much more of a third and I went into some sort of other profession. But I used to pop him off by saying I did want to get into movies. But I wanted to get to the scientific side, the labs, which had been learned tension during at all. And so but after, but I came to leave school at the age of 18 it became apparent that there's nothing for prposition to get in the film industry. And
Alan Legard 5:35
we're talking about 1946. Yeah, still go back. Certainly. I mean, you you're obviously mad keen on Pathescope and all that. But did you have the opportunity to go to the pictures? from time to time
Richard Marden 5:46
Yes. Because what happened was that my parents like, liked the cinema, they were interested in thing, but they rather took care of what one went to see because those days you know parents were by the state. And so, one was usually taken to see something which had some relevance perhaps one set of Rhodes of Africa Clive of India. The sort of move is the Great Barrier. Things which brought thyings like that one could also choose because I seem to remember that, I think it was in 1936, when George The fifth died by mother said she thought she would take my brother and I to see the lying in state, which neither of us particularly wanted to do. And George particularly wanted to go and see a film called The Crusaders, or ethic or the crusades, which was on in Harrow. And my mother being a very kind woman gave it an age we never thought I had many ways,
Alan Legard 6:48
another marvellous film, children, and those days, I'm been taking the sequel, the lives of Bengal Lancers
Richard Marden 6:53
Oh, yes, indeed. That was that was another very good movie. Yeah. So those sorts of movies, and they, there was the time when Snow White came out, which it ran at the new gallery. Yeah. And I, my father used to work sort of five and a half days, he had Saturday afternoon off, and I remember him coming home one day, and then we're all going up to town to see Snow Whote . And of course, the days when you had continuous performances, and I should never forget arrive getting wherever we were in the cinema. And looking at the screen just as the Wicked Witch was taking the poisoned apple out of the cold room, and all the liquid ran off it and formed skulls down. And then I think she kept some spider skeleton on the go. Oh, very impressive. And they've run There's wonderful things that one remembers as a child and never forget.
Alan Legard 7:50
indelibly Ah,
Richard Marden 7:52
another thing. There was a film of Scrooge with Sir Seymour Hicks. And I remember only to a must have I can't remember how old I would have been. Any have been about five? I think I would I was doing seeing it, I don't know. But it had two images, one, a close up of a bell on a sprung Bell, who knows, like servants Bell, which started to ring , for no reason was the ability, presumably one of the ghosts of Christmas, past, present or future. And the other was, must have been doing the ghost of Christmas yet to come. And I ones memory plays tricks on these things. But I remember a shot of a gravestone with a shadow of a finger pointing presumably to Ebenezer Scrooge. And I think both these things gave me nightmares. I can't remember anything else about the film. Except that it was was a cinema called the Wembley Hall, which was one of the earliest cinemas in Wembley, if not the earliest, which had I think been built in the 20s had been converted to sound. And don'tknow whole story here, except that it was the only cinema I've ever been into they've had back projection. Because as it fronted on to the main high street there was no room to put projectors there. So the projectors were at the back at right angles to screen that went through a prism. And so the screen was not that big. But, but that's . If you were coming down from the street. You know, where the high street is. There a Methodist Church on the corner. Whenever you come down from King Edward VII Park, go straight down to the high street turn left into the high street, and it was on the right hand side. of The road because at the bottom of that street, where we tend to hide used to be the majestic. Now, if you if instead of going to the majestic, turn to your left and right, walked about another 150 yards up the street on the right was the Wembley Hall was run by two ladies, the Mrs Thompson's. A lot of useless information. So that memory was that then the first film I ever saw was at the majestic, and it was called Skippy. And it had I think Jackie Coogan, or Jackie Cooper, and I remember only one vague memory of it. And I can't put it in better context, except it was either Jackie Coogan or whoever it was as a little boy of about four or five, playing in a street with a ball and the ball went out into the streets. And there was a lady in a long coat and possibly a cloth hat I can't . Remember? I can't remember what hat I can only assume that remember it because it must have been dramatic. And I assume that maybe he nearly got run over. But I don't know because that's the only image I've got
Alan Legard 11:31
1931 Paramount Skippy, and directed by Norma Turog
Richard Marden 11:38
written by Joe Mankewich
Alan Legard 11:39
by Jor Mankewich Jackie Cooper, Robert Coburn Mitzi Green Jeffrey Soames Willard Robert.
Richard Marden 11:45
Robert I must have seen it when a when it must have got to the majestic about 1933 I should have thought I wouldn't have thought I'd seen it before. Before that. But I know that was the very first and I can't tell you whether I would have thought did it Really? Well, I just don't know. But that so that was that. So the hope first, I suppose 13 years as it were from the age of five was the the total fascination of movies buying amateurCine world hiring movies getting hold of a little Cine camera which I was given when I was about 12 a secondhand one by my parents. Really it was 9.5 I think Pathe Moto camera B
Alan Legard 12:38
got any of your 9 point five
Richard Marden 12:41
annoying really john because I remember Godfrey and I sometime later on we went over to eight mil and 16 mil. And as you do when you're in your teens, you don't think about things, the better we are we don't have that rubbish and throw it all away. We kick ourselves completely every time we think about it.
Alan Legard 13:03
The only person I know know who has recollection of 9.5 is our old friend Julian Coulter.
Richard Marden 13:08
I really loved
Alan Legard 13:11
the night he helped me was 9.5 a few years back really I had to have transferred to video and he edited it together for you now it's I mean it's a fascinating
Richard Marden 13:24
size with it because it got a remarkable picture area on yes it's the only trouble was was the wretched central sprocket rocket yes and
Alan Lawson 13:31
when they got torn
Richard Marden 13:32
when they got torn all sorts of scratches appearing on eventually I would have Pathe Vox
Dave Robson 13:41
not stripe but optical track
Richard Marden 13:44
I remember but that because I remember it cost 60 pounds I remember think if I ever had 60 pounds I would want to have a Pathe Voxbecause it was about £600 foot bench equipment yes
Dave Robson 13:58
expensive lens
Richard Marden 14:00
I've never heard any of it Did you know because the picture size and they must know D and it was a square picture though what they could they took the cap the cut the picture off in order to get the track on this?
Alan Legard 14:13
Yeah, yes.
Richard Marden 14:14
There was 17.5 sound too there then he early in the 30s which Pathe had but it never took off?
Alan Legard 14:22
That came rather late on didn't it and vice versa the wwarv came and it all stopped Yeah, I never saw any I did see it once. Yes, I was seated. Give them a demonstration send me 9.5 by once that little amateur place out in Buckingham came to an end. Oh, sorry. I'm digressing.
Richard Marden 14:41
No, no, that Sammy that really was the as I say when I had the 9.5 we've made some pretty ghastly movies.
Alan Legard 14:51
Anyway, you got stuck together.
Richard Marden 14:53
Oh yeah. And I remember Godfrey was very clever because he he went in the industry before I did I have a target together But he left before I did. And he joined us at Crown Film Unit
Alan Legard 15:04
That's right. And I remember Godfrey arriving where he worked in the film library with me it was a dear old lady called Adelaide Pentecost
Richard Marden 15:11
Oh, that's right. And Terry Harvey joined.
Alan Legard 15:14
He joined a little later
Richard Marden 15:17
well, Godfrey, I seem to remember we had we'd hired up there now we are on 8 mill, I think this must have been somewhere when we were about 14, we got rid of nine five sold the projector got secondhand eight mil, I think or something like that. And we hied the lost world which was made about 1924, I think, which was remarkable one of tyhe first films which combined model action and live action split screen. And we Godfrey work, because Godfrey has always been much better, sort of technical things, and I haven't, and we he made a very good plasticine dinosaur. And we had one of the little dinky toy motorcars or whatever other culture or whatever. And we had it up in Godfrey's bedroom. And we had one photo flood lamp, and a reflector, and we animated the dinosaur climbing over this little car. Now this wasn't this was while we will still have 9.5, I think, because we hadn't got a stop frame, single frame camera. So when boomp boomp switches on or switch on the thing hoping you got one or two or whatever. So we ended up with a jerky dinosaurr walking over this dinky toy. But what we hadn't realised until it was a bit too late, was that it had quite a long tail, which of course didn't move very much good. It was out the area in which it was battery climbing was so confined. We hadn't noticed that the tail was melting on Godfreys bedroom carpet for the amount of output that when his mother came up, but she was very good, because it didn't really matter. But and so these sorts of silly things happen to you, you know, when you do these things, all of which are tremendous fun. None of them if they had, if they still existed would be of any interest to anybody. other than Godfrey or myself because they would look absolutely appalling. But
Alan Legard 17:27
you show these films anyway.
Richard Marden 17:29
No, because we never really. family used to be bored I'm sure with them, but they never really, we always seem to be rather more intrigued by seeing whether you could do this or that rather than actually making up a proper story and getting it together.
And
by that time one was away at school all week. Anyway, Godfrey was working I think for about 1943. And because he went into substandard film finishes as a lab. Yes. And then. Yes, then he joined Crown.
Alan Legard 18:16
So anyway, so substandard film finishers Tell me what happened to them. Because I always thought that was a very bad name for a company no good counterproductive. It's
Richard Marden 18:25
I don't know, whatever happened. I never worked with them. I Godfrey worked for them. And as far as I know, he was there for about a year you'd have to ask him but then I think he went on to Crown Crown at PInewood That's right I was then still at school and being very jealous of
Alan Legard 18:43
you were Highgate were there are other filmmakers.
Richard Marden 18:46
There were other ones there but not that I knew of at the time. Teddy Darvas. He was there. But he wasn't there when I was there because he was the school was divided during the war or the early part of the war. And a lot of it was evacuated down to Westwood, Ho in Devon we where Teddy went I joined it in the end of 41. At a Highgate itself where there was a rump of about 120 people and I was made a weekly border there by my parents and the school reunited in 43 because the Navy decided they didn't need the buildings anymore and the school came back for westward ho. by which time as far as I know, Teddy wasn't I think he'd left. These dates are fairly accurate I think because 42 was the year my mother died I must havedied is about just over nearly 15 and it's these things. far as I remember Teddy wasn't there now. Who else Tony Harvey was at Highgate but he was younger than I and I I saw him once reall because he played the dauphion in a school production of Bernard Shaw's St Joan somewhere around about 1945, I think to remember, he's very good. And in fact, I remember seeing it. But and I think that sort of neurotic thing that, that I'm not being that Tony would do rather Well, the well Who else was there that went there that I didn't know. Alvin Bailey Bailey now what, what happened to Alvin had drinks with him by name, they came to my mind the other day. And I thought what on earth has happened to Alvin?
Alan Legard 20:46
He lives in Elgin Crescent. He's not actually working very much, I don't think but he's still involved in a lot of local activities. And he goes into yoga and he does a lot of walking exercise and just enjoying life. changed a bit.
Richard Marden 20:59
I haven't seen him for 30 years, I should think. But if you see him do give him my best wishes. I mean, it's the last I can't remember when I last when people was he editing then last
Alan Legard 21:11
thing that he and I did together with somebody called Colin Moffett, who was a mutual friend of ours, who was a radio producer now. And he did a just on a programme about the life of Humphrey Jennings. Oh, yes, I heard that programme. And Alvin was one of the speakers and it made me think of some lines that Ian Dalrymple has
Richard Marden 21:31
written. That's right. Well, now that's what my cuz I listened to that programme And I wanted to hear it. And I thought when the credits came up and said, Alvin, Bailey I thought, well, good. I
Alan Legard 21:42
mean, I don't know that he's around. He's fine. Yeah. Oh, good. Yes. And we ought to interview him. I think sometime, because he's got an interesting story to tell.
Richard Marden 21:50
I'm sure he has. I'm sure he has. Yeah. So I was at Highgate. He was in high gate, but I don't think we were there together. I don't remember him there I think they may be a little older than I I don't know. I'm not sure.
Alan Legard 22:05
So anyway, well,
Richard Marden 22:06
he thought that was
Alan Legard 22:07
only Harvey, because then he went on to
Richard Marden 22:09
talk to the acting director,
Alan Legard 22:13
he and the news. When did you Where did you start first? And as
Richard Marden 22:18
I started first at a place called Carlton Hill studios, and this was in 1946, as a trainee in the sound department, because
Alan Legard 22:28
I was your contact there. How do you
Richard Marden 22:29
what happened there was that my father, but we've done the usual business, we've got to now we're writing to all the studios, I want to get the film to do what you do. And they all said, we've got to join the ACT, or you've got to do this, you've got to do that. And none of it worked. My father as I told you, was involved with , the glass works, and they made film lighting equipment, studio lighting. And one day Pa heard a man called Mr. Bill Norris, was getting somewhere in the building or round the labs or whatever it was during looking at possible film lighting equipment, Father rushed over get all that. I have a son . I don't know, what do you know, it's all gone too far . And Bill Norris who was then manager of Nettlefolds studios at Walton onThames said, I will send him to see me. So I was duly sent or went to Walton to see Bill Norris which is one of the most exciting days of my life, because I was actually in a film studio. And Bill Norris this was a nice, rough guy . And I would say now, I suppose I think he'd be the sort of Chief electrician. And I think that he got into the situation by the war , sort of thing . But anyway, he was a nice man. And he said to me, Oh, you don't want to get in this business? And I said, Yes, I do. And I remember him ringing up the ACT. and say, I've got tonnes of stickers. I've got this college boy who wants to get into the business. A lot of chat, which I didn't understand. They don't understand any of it at that time. went on. And he showed me around the studio and they were making the Crowds of the Bankstand at that time, which was directed by Walter Ford I think, I think Dennis Price and various people and again, terribly exciting because this the films that these peopleand stuff and all the people that then it amiable, nice and pleasant, and they I don't know whether I was in the studio or not on visiting or whatever had I enjoyed it. Yeah, it's just very sweet of them and Bill Norris said Now, I know what we can do about that. There's no work for you here but we have a daughter for connections. With a small studio, Carlton Hill in St. John's Wood with there is possibility that there will be a vacancy there for a trainee. What do you have for you do anything trainee in the sound department so I thought fine you know that I suppose was somewhere around about June or July cuz I was buted I 46 six and I joined Carlton Hill I suspect
Alan Legard 25:26
quite a busy time because a lot of people were
Richard Marden 25:28
coming back from the forces being demobbed and so I managed to get in there I think probably about September October as a trainee in the sound department. First day, I seem to remember sweeping up soundtrack and learning vaguely how to rig one of those old films and equipment booms there's sort of grey ones. Ben is out of the film that was being made was the Turner's of Prospect Road which is the second feature and it had Wilford Lawson how I've got the notes here Wilford Lawson's direct Maureen Glim can't remember damn funny name for a young girl, Jean de Cassilas or John de Cassilis was directed by Maurice Jay Wilson for Grand National, and it was photographed by Freddie Ford. And the continuity, the continuity girl is called Dot Forman And Firstly, I have to say is that I was green went into this business. But I'm now trying to put this as accurately and objectively as I can, from a fairly protected environment. Slightly, I suppose, with a bit of a plum in my mouth in the sense, but I've never come I've never come across carpenters and plasters and sparks and all these people before I never had that it's not part of my environment. And the fucking unblinding and all of which have cost you later then, and I was a naive 18 year well, there's no doubt about it. But what I've never forgotten is how kind they are when they sent me up. Of course they did, which was exactly right. But never unkindly. And were always very pleasant to me. And I'm amazed you know, and I think back on it when you think of all the conversations we had about class distinctions, snobbery and all the rest of it the plain fact of the matter is that a movie in the movies once you when you only live together, I think was absolutely wonderful. I've never forgotten. And the thing the Dot Foreman, the only reason I said her because she was very nice to me. Secondly, apparently she lived somewhere near Wilfred Lawson As we know, Wilford Lawson, a very fine actor, but by now had really taken to the bottle somewhat unfortunately, no matter. This story, which I believe to be true, but one evening while they were making this film I was I wouldn't I wouldn't have heard about it otherwise. Dot Forman was walking home somewhere, I think in Notting Hill gate, I don't know somewhere in this vague ambience of here. And she saw tLawson slightly inebriated going along. And she knew where he lived. And she thought, Well, I do him a favour and take him by the arm and I'll take him home. So there's no problem. And she went up and said hello, Wlfred you know And he took me by the arm and she says, you know, we live near to each other see you home. And they were walking along they passed a policeman . And he went up to the policeman , excuse me officer , this woman has accosted me she was carted off? to the police station Walter then had to come and identify her I have now dear Dot Forman . And I don't know what ever happened to her. I obviously haven't seen him for 50 years, whether she's still with us, or if I would make it plain in this. I know so as I know to be true. Is No. And I'm sure she would if it is true. She'd have enjoyed it. Now the other people who I remembered, I think the film is edited by a man called Donald ginsburg. Oh, yes. I can hear. That's so that was that. So while I was in the industry and I Paddy Cunningham was the sound camera operator who was due for call up went into the RAF. I took over a sound camera operator on a Pm 45 RCA What was known as portables? It took about three people to carry it plus an amplifier and god knows what and I remained, I think as sort of sound camera operator for about two years at most two years. And it was a very small studio that made basically second features which were made in two or three weeks and some of them
Mario Zampi came out of came back to the industry and made two movies. One called the Phantom Shot, which was originally called who killed Caleb Order, was edited by his son, Julio, and who was assisted by a man called Joe Levine is now in Los Angeles. And he made another film there later than that somewhere, I think at about I think in 47, I think he did that in 46, called the Fatal Night, which in fact, was a not bad, little spooky. second feature. With curious enough, Patrick Mee, Lester Ferguson who was I think, Canadian tenor, and Brenda Hogan and Jean Short and photographed by Cedric Williams. And it had the largest set that Carlton Hill ever, ever had, because it was a very small studio was sort of a large
Alan Legard 31:20
private house
Richard Marden 31:20
rather like one of these yes it was . And they had, the main set was the entrance to a Belgravia house where the staircase going up which was built and was practical, because you could get the dolly up there. And doors off thethe doors went nowhere, obviously, because then they had to build another little set for where the bedroom was, but
this was all put up with scaffolding and the usual thing and so on and so forth.I must have been coming down on the set, at some point as one did standing near a piece of rope just in front of a piece of tubing which was support me with it think about 150 other people supporting part of this stair case and gather it and feeling this sort of weight and getting realising that the Bill Tyler was the watchmacallit call it the the rigger the thing, Bill I think you ought to come over here I won'tmove but I've walked through it, it was just, it was all good. It's just a funny little story ready. And so I think I stayed in there. And, and they
Alan Legard 32:50
clearly experience that actually working on those on those small features
Richard Marden 32:54
Well, it was actually so many aspects. And so it you see the thing was it being a fvery small studio it also had cutting rooms. And I knew that I was not really cut out for being a sound technician because although I was fascinated by all of it in the sense of hearing it. For the good founders, I didn't in those days, it was valves and specialists. And I didn't understand what went
Alan Legard 33:23
on in besides the radio world likely to
Richard Marden 33:25
and I didn't really want to know that actually, I could work all the equipment. And I knew Charlie Parkhouse was the sound man there and he'd say, well give me a level Dick I knew what to do with it all. I didn't know what went on. And all those tubes
Alan Legard 33:41
he trained, he was an engineer. It'd be a radio sound
Richard Marden 33:45
engineer to and to know about that. And so I gradually wanted, I used to be fascinated by going into the cutting rooms that there were in this little studio and when there wasn't much doing in the sound department and if I could I would march in them. People would say hello and so on. Some would let you watch a bit of a start . And gradually I realised that what I wanted to do was to get into the cutting room and get out of the sound department. And we have a nice studio manager called Bob King who was has been in the Navy and he was very civilised interesting sort of character and I could talk with him and we talked about this and I think, worked out that when Paddy Cunningham came back from his forties of national service, he obviously had to come back into the job. So he took on so I think we were able to move it all around in some ways that I could go into cutting room because Kays at that time to make it through to K Carlton Hill studios owned by Kays labs and Nettlefold studios. who were going to Make a film. second feature of the WW. Jacob's the Monkey's Paw? Oh, yes. And it was worked out that I could go in as the assistant to the editor, albeit I had never done anything in the cutting room in my life. And the editor whose name I do, they very well, I've got it written down. And it was Ted Inmanhunter Ted hunter who actually when I consider it must have been among the most patient people ever come across because they were just the two of us. Now fortunately, in those days, the labs would sync up the rushes. And they'd also numbered them. So you could get them synced and numbered at the lab of that got one of the major happens out of the way. And then I was taught how to break them down. And I was taught how to file them. And I was told how Ted was very strict because not only did you have a rushes book, which has then slate and scene and all the rest of it in one book. But in those days, everything being on optical, you have neg numbers, of course, the soundtrack as well. So he always insisted that I have another book, which prepared will also cross referenced, I just spend all my time entering things in books, but of the slate numbers of the action with the edge numbers and the sound of the edge numbers, then all the different edge numbers collated and put together with the slates opposite them so that all the 41 yg. Right, yeah, the only things they will cross reference, they will spend most one time sort of doing these things, very good data, trying to put the trims away. And so and I must say dear old , Ted was very patient and I think one learns a ot one had to hand join it because we you did your own numbering? If not, then they broke up the labs did it. All right, yes. But we had the Griswold joiners and that better? Well, there's a bit of a nightmare blues, sound stuff for buzz track, which never stuck And I remember getting into this habit of going into running with one set of fingers crossed inspection and other fingers crossed exam got so stupid, so they wouldn't uncross them becausf I did something would break. But so we did that we finished that. So that was directed by Milton Rosmah. Oh, because he is well
Alan Lawson 37:27
known actor
Richard Marden 37:28
He was well an actor and he had directed films before the war he I think he did direct the Great Barrier or something.
And
it was photographed by Brian Langley. Oh, yes. It wasn't directed by it was directed by Norman Lee. I beg your pardon and starred Milton Rosmah and Megs Jenkins as young as a couple of years
Alan Legard 37:51
normally. And then you say that to Brian Langley photographed it. That's right. Brian Langley was for a bit on the history project. He was on the committee. Really? Yeah. Because he he came in a few times last year. And he didn't stay very long because he didn't think he was critical. He said his looks rather frail. And he was obviously quite elderly. But he seemed to be in very,
Richard Marden 38:13
very good. He's very good, cameraman, if I remember. Andall looked absolutely splendid. And so for them that all finished my favourite Carton Hill , they allowed me to stay on as a sort of general factotum for a bit. And then another film came in which Vernon Sewell director characters. And he was a film called Jack of Diamonds. And it was a film that he made on his yacht, female called the Gallard. And he and his then wife, Linda, Linda, she's still his wife will not and Nigel Patrick and some other people went off to do Deauville around the methods of pretty ghastly second feature quite quite a lot
Alan Legard 39:03
of productions when you're learning process
Richard Marden 39:05
Oh indeed
Alan Legard 39:07
Very, very good. Very good. Obviously, it was a good place to be trained,
Richard Marden 39:11
really. And it was edited by a man called Francis Biba who's been dead fat for a long time. Very nice man. And we worked on this together and Vernon also it was a great one for cutting because he really liked to cut his own movies anyway. So we were doing this what he worked with Powell and Pressburger and he did in the early days, Silver Fleet or whatever,
Alan Legard 39:38
and even earlier than was at the Edge of the World or something like that. Yes. Assistant Director I
Richard Marden 39:42
think on and he was a but the interesting man because he he really made time to go blue his buddy maybe shouldn't say that, but uh, he He was a bit like a sort of Ralph Lin character for he had a monocle, so he spoke rather Posh Commander Sewell
Dave Robson 40:11
I didn't realise
Richard Marden 40:11
I was actually a very nice man but a bit like that. He eventually once we finish shooting, which didn't take very long, he really came and cut the picture and Francis and I really thought this was so simply cut and I was so first come second assistant. And in the it meant we would take it in turns to wait with Vernon while he finished cutting at night because he tended to work on and on and on And they were one ghastly time I remember when we were going to move from Carlton Hill to Zands Court 8 Zands Court when he was needs to say, as always cutting rooms in Wardour Street anywhere in those days, always at the top of the building and they never have a lift. And I was my turn to stay with Vernon this Friday evening. And he we were I was moving the film The next day Saturday the van was coming at nine o'clock in the morning and so on. And
Dave Robson 41:11
I
Richard Marden 41:13
Vernon said we really do a little bit and we just work on these two reels because you could put the rest of it away and have it all ready for the morning. And at about half past 10 rung and Vernon said if you will just run me back to the station to get to get you home. And I promise I won't. I've just finish off I won't do anything more I got in the next morning famous last words. I've never seen such a mess in my life he'd worked on every reel he'd ran out of paper clips, he left the messages on the the plates the glass where e will be the lights of chinagraph at 4:30am run out of clips using pins, be careful when joining and I thought the van's coming in 20 minutes of every 20 minutes for all these bits of stuff, all you could do was just wind it all up into big rolls and cart it off that way and spend the next two hours. sorting it out He wasn't easy, but doesn't seem unkind man, you've just thoughtless. He I must say was very sweet because he The first time I ever got a credit because he made the credit. He said I don't have to pick up we've got this doesn't work out. We've got too much space. Oh, give him one. Which is free. That was the first one for a ery long time. So that was that and curiously enough jumping away about about that was 1949
Alan Legard 43:01
Why did you have to go to Zandys Court anyway? I mean, was that because you were overflowing?
Richard Marden 43:06
Well, they were saying it wasn't a Kays film an independent production exclusive. I think I was in Yeah.
Alan Legard 43:14
So anyway,
Richard Marden 43:15
so that was only 49. Then about I suppose six years ago, seven or eight years ago. I went to BAFTA for lunch I was working in town, I often get a BAFTA for lunch and I went in there and there were not many people about and I saw an old gentleman and somebody else in the corner. I thought I'm sure and something made me realise it was Vernon after but I feel very shy about these things because 40 years have gone by and God knows. I thought I can't let this go. And I did go up to him and said excuse Mr. Sewell and his said you won't remeber but I'm Dick Marden and I work on a film called Jack of Diamonds . I thought everybody was dead. I said bot all of them. And we had a pleasant little chat. He must have been in about late 80s I should think very together a very bright say Well, I dear boy I you know I spend half the year in South Africa. I've got a mobile have a caravan I drive down around.
Alan Legard 44:29
Yeah, so I remember that time when he came. I never actually knew him But I've heard from people that he had been into BAFTA about having lunch with old Jerry O'Halloran who was a
Richard Marden 44:42
friend of his No, that's why because they would have all gone back.
Alan Legard 44:45
Yeah. Incidentally, alas . We just heard a couple of days ago that Jerry O'Halloran has died
Richard Marden 44:51
Oh he has, has he We have I mean, when I've thought things were pretty bad because I've been asked they told me that he was in hospital and then you've been in hospital some months........................................................
Alan Legard 0:02
So you had a chat with Vernon
Richard Marden 0:04
had a chat with Vernon And he said that he was spending his winters in South Africa driving around, I was impressed by God driving around the big sort of motorised caravan. And he said in the summer, dear boy, I have the most marvellous little nook in the south of France, which I'm not telling you where it is, where I have my boat. So he was fine. It was lovely to see him. And he really, it was fun, and it was all part of the old past But then after that, Carlton who quite reasonably said, Look, you can't expect to be employed here, because you've actually started freelancing. So I left, and the next thing was what's going to happen. And fortunately, after a couple of months, when my father had begun to sort of say, you know, I think you've got to consider the situation pretty seriously what was going to go on like this, where the futurethoughts and so on. I had met up with Adam Dawson who was first assistant on the Glass Mountain,
Alan Legard 0:04
are how fascinating Alan Dawson yeah
Richard Marden 0:14
by Mister \Lawrence? and I met up with him because they had done a certain amount of a cutting of that at Carlton Hill really is and and it was at that time that but to'd and fro'd bit with them, but they've got to know them. And after I'd left Carlton Hill, after I think after a jack of diamonds course was after jack of diamonds. Adam had my home telephone number and very sweetly rang up and said, Could I be second assistant with him? On Murder at the Windmill, which was a film actually I jumped something here, I'll go back and do it Murder at the Windmill which was a second feature madeat Nettlefold film studios about the Windmill theatre, the first proper feature film produced by Daniel M Angel, and directed and written by Val Guest. and edited by Duggie Myers, and Adam Duggie did the musical numbers Adam cut most of the dialogue scenes, and I was affected the system usually covered in head to foot with numbering it and rushing around finding it all. absolutely fascinating. And one sweet story I must mentioned about Val who, with a very, very competent director indeed knew exactly what he wanted to do. And the film came in it was supposed to be an hour length, and it came in at something like 55 minutes or 67 minutes.or whatever contractually, this was no good. And so they had to shoot something else. And I'm amazed that I hadn't noticed that because I remember thinking, well, I've got a brilliant idea. When I went to Duggie Myers who was very nice, man, very clever editor too. I said Duggie I've got an idea he said you should ring up Val I said I can't ring up Val He wants to know he was trying to think of that. That's what I can't do that is to go and pick him up. So I rang up and explained who I was it yesterday. What is it live on idea? for because I gather we're under length and I went into a terribly complicated farrago of a chase of the Windmill theatre down .Piccadilly. I mean, it was absolutely nonsense to me. I'm embarrassed when I think back on it now. Anyway. Val listened to all of this without being impatient. And said, Dick, thank you now I said, we can't do it. And he said, I'll tell you why we can't do it. And with great well with great kindness really he told me exactly why it was impractical. It would cost too much because they'd have to be BP they'd have to have night shooting explained the whole thing to me. Thanked me for it. And in the end we shot Jimmy Edwards was playing the trombone. But I've never I never worked for Val again. It's a
Alan Legard 4:34
good way but that's part of the learning process, isn't it?
Richard Marden 4:37
But I thought what kind man What a sympathetic man instead of saying what the heck do you mean by being over wasting my time? I'm not troubled about you.
Alan Legard 4:48
He was saying an interesting idea but but you
Richard Marden 4:50
know, and and explained it but I've thought Listen, I've always had
Alan Legard 4:56
Where did you edit this particular film? with Doug Myers and saw what
was it done? This was done at Nettlefolds
Nettlefolds your back at Walto
Richard Marden 5:06
because now I'm in the freelance, available of whoever will employ a nice little studio
Alan Legard 5:11
that actually I wrote. I like it. I worked at Walton for about 10 days. We did it. We shot a documentary, which had some studios. Yeah, it's quiet internet. And when they were making the Oscar Wilde film, oh, yeah, it's been about 1960 I suppose about 10 to 12 years later than the
Richard Marden 5:30
new closed in 60. odd. Yeah, there's probably about 57 58
Alan Legard 5:37
It was the other Oscar Wilde film they were making. That's why we're doing a little documentary about freight transport required studio scenes. And I enjoyed it. I thought it was a pleasant little place.
Richard Marden 5:47
It was a studio and I spent quite a bit I
Alan Legard 5:50
thought it was sort of wiped out and turned into a shopping centre, but
Richard Marden 5:54
it was it was a shame and it was also Well, it was sold out when when Hannah Weinstein everybody left it. Robin Hood,
Alan Legard 6:02
Robin Hood,
Richard Marden 6:05
things they, but curious enough, I've got my dates wrong. Because after 49, after the Jack of Diamonds thing, and before Murder at the Windmill. A company started up based at Carlton Hill to start with called Parthian productions, which was run as far as I remember or run by a man called Henry Hobhouse was, as far as I know, the first company in Britain to make films for American television. And what happened was that they started off the small way, making a series of famous musical songs was just somebody playing a piano and artists set and a sort of medium shot close up. About I think they were 13 minutes each have about four songs. Francis Bebo got involved with it, and hence I got involved with it as his assistant, because they chop, I think 13 now this is either going to be a bit naughty here because of them and his assistant. I don't think they're alive. I can't believe that they're alive that his name was Dockery. And her name was Mrs. Morse. And they were supposed to be cutting these things. But they didn't seem to be getting on with them very well. That was why Francis was called in Francis was called in , and he asked me to join him. So it was decided the thing to deal with Doc and Mrs Morse would continue from number one, and we would start at number 13. And theoretically meet them in the middle. But we didn't we met them around about number two. Now I was this was I suppose probably my third experience in the cutting room in the sense of Monkey's Paw first one. Jack of Diamonds But even I by now realised that there were certain things you had to do otherwise it wouldn't work. And one of them was that you should number it because if you didn't cut the clappers off it was quite arbitrary unless you were going to sync up
Alan Legard 8:34
with I used to have to number it by hand without a numbers machine I just scraped
Richard Marden 8:40
every foot or two feet or three feet.
Alan Legard 8:43
Remember with a little scratch on 123 but normally Chinagraph then but I lots of sync marks
Richard Marden 8:50
Yes indeed. Well the thing about this was even I had realised that they weren't numbering and that this and Mrs Morse used to go up and down on a bar there were two moviolas we've had a big cutting room two moviolas and one with one with fully fully adapted spools so on so she used to have these songs joined up when the medium shot close medium you know she's copping down all day all these things. She used to wear white apron to white overall I remember saying to listen, Mrs Morse what about what are you doing? And she said well, I'm spotting and I've never understood this that's still that under the I think she was spotting approximate cuts for Doc because then at some point the whole thing will be brought out and it would be put for a synchroniser but then once its clappers were cut off. Yeah. And he takes it out of the synchroniser It was a very movable feast . Whether the next few cuts were in sync, or they weren't, and that was one of the reasons why I think,
Alan Legard 10:05
what what is spotting mean? And I mean, what but I can only say a physical thing was did she actually mark,
Richard Marden 10:11
I think she marked through a blueit? it there. And then you could
Alan Legard 10:15
it was getting points. Yeah. Yes, it could be that could be the lack of doing a sort of assembly but without
actually joining.
Richard Marden 10:23
And so that's really why. Now the other and this is a really rather knocking dear old Doc he was a silly old man actually. And the thing is, though, the other piece of final foolishness was with that, because one of the introductions to the song had been incorrect and needed, obviously to be reshot, which would have been a close up of the bosses then. Cyril whatever his name was the man who played this piano, just needed to be reshot then you say what he have to say, Doc announced that this wasn't necessary. Because all he needed to do was I still find it extraordinary that all he needed to to do was to record the track. And then if we got a blow up of the existing shot of Phil thingamajig, at the piano, he'd cut the picture to fit the track. So we thought, well, this can't You can't be serious about this, but it was ordered. And then after about a week of, and he had the soundtrack of three frames out here Leave two put in one just as the other ended up with a piece of picture at the same length of the track. And we went up to the tiny theatre, I've had a look of something with some St Vitus Dance hopping about. all over the screen And that really, I think, was the time when it was decided that Doc probably didn't know as much as he said he did. And it was just I couldn't believe that day, the
Alan Legard 12:09
again, learning experience seeing what not to do. But
Richard Marden 12:12
the thing was, we then put that Parthan production then got larger, and it started doing some potted Shakespeare versions, which it shot out. All right, yeah. So where are you still?
Alan Legard 12:27
Where are you still using nitrate? Well, we're the way we are nitrate film still still on nitrate? Absolute about 1950. Again, I suppose.
Richard Marden 12:35
Yes. Got 51 5051. I think it was
Alan Legard 12:39
sort of working in these different places. What was that? A problem? And those days, nitrate? Did you know I tend to be very careful. Did you have to have I mean,
Richard Marden 12:48
the thing was, again, nobody obviously was allowed to smoke in the cutting rooms and anybody like Duggie who liked to have a cigarette But you'd have to go outside into the exterior to do it. Yeah. And they were strict about that. Oh, they were yes indeed . And there was no question. I mean, if you remember that projection equipment, had its own little extinguisher on the gate and all of that everything was covered from the, from the top spool box to the takeout box. So yeah, if anything went then theoretically only burn six, foot of film it out. You know
Alan Legard 13:29
remember Pinewood we were they were frightfully strict thee , we had put all our smoking materials, we had these metal cabinet.
Richard Marden 13:34
That's why theoretically, we had to put those in
Alan Legard 13:36
and they were they I don't know whether they had fire practice or anything, but I know they were very strict about it. And which ones had stories of sort of freelance editors or curious characters possibly like some like Bernard Thewell working or like, you know, smoking a cigar and then occasionally, conflagration and all these cuttings going up,in flames in particularly, but I mean, there were many stories of that.
Richard Marden 13:36
I think that work. I think, obviously, it's like, gun cartridges it's incredibly dangerous stuff.
Alan Legard 14:07
I remember it. Well.
Richard Marden 14:08
I don't I fortunately, never was involved in a way with anybody. I think certainly the people that I worked with, who smoked I mean, Duggie smoked, I think Val had certainly smoked Francis, I think had the occasional cigarette but there was never any never anywhere near the filmbecause it was so ingrained. I mean, barely, I suppose 50 years been known. Yeah. What is good to know, actually. Yes, it was good. What was
Speaker 2 14:36
I heard a story of a chap over which spooloing up films and he was a smoker, and used to make change over cues for that.
Richard Marden 14:49
Well, you've heard I've heard these tales. When I was at Carlton Hill somebody told me about an editor. I didn't know but this is an apocryphal story but I think must've oobviously pre war story, but who knows what sort of markers cuts. But I didn't know how you could do that just because if you did that with celluloid, the whole thing went up. You could do it with acetate because it would just crinkle Absolutely, yeah. But if you did this for sale once you did that, the whole thing is that black sheets evolved and I couldn't, I don't really I find those stories a bit difficult to believe because it has
Alan Legard 15:29
that particular orange flame that one remember is sort of very strange and it hissed. And we used to use them for fireworks. So old spares yeah, make them into Roman candles.
Richard Marden 15:41
Hmm. And so you know, it was I athetic . Everybody was very strict on
Alan Legard 15:49
because there's still an awful lot of nitrate left about you know.
Richard Marden 15:54
Yeah, I could happen to generated into jelly.
Alan Legard 15:57
Yeah. Yes, this lab down at South Norwood Henderson's run by the Lucas brothers about three or four years ago, they had a terrific conflagration down some original negs of Ealing studio films and went up and
Richard Marden 16:14
really. That's very sad. And
Alan Legard 16:17
unfortunately, they had predictive firebreaks , and so on. And I suppose in the passage of time, this stuff becomes unstable and it can spontaneous combustion almost if there's the wrong temperature. Anyway, sorry. But just an interesting point, because I always recall was such a pleasure leaving Crown film in it and joining Edgar Anstey at British Transport films in Savile Row where everything was on safety stock, so didn't have to worry about yeah, that's always wonderful. lovelylovely quality prints from Humphroes all on safety stock. Well, of course, the original neg was still on, on nitrate up till about 55 I suppose.
Speaker 2 17:00
Well, we made change over in the West End base very gently, very slowly. But it was the start of up to that all joints are handmade.
Richard Marden 17:09
Yes. You
Speaker 2 17:10
Exactly. Everyone had their own signature. You knew exactly who made join. Yeah. But after that, we had to go on to hand splices, you know. Just different films altogether.
Alan Legard 17:23
Oh, yes.
Richard Marden 17:25
No, because I think they I remember the old Griswold splicer the handle and then we have the foot
Alan Legard 17:33
join the foot joiner which were heated. That's why I had to switch it on well before you started joining, because heating
Richard Marden 17:41
those were very bad. They did good news. Good. They were very good. We had diagonal
Alan Legard 17:46
join us for a sound editing. I remember foot joiners
Richard Marden 17:49
now. That's right. That's right.
Alan Legard 17:52
The first work I ever did in the cutting room was doing diagonal join us for the dubbing tracks of a film called the Broad Fourteen made at Pinewood but 1945 I suppose. Yeah, directed by McNaughton Archie McNaughton
Richard Marden 18:11
Oh, yes, yes, yes. No, I think, but the thing about going back to the old Parthian thing, they we did the potted Shakespeare's we did a potted version of Julius Caesar, the potted version of Antony and Cleopatra. Those were shot at Southall studios.
Alan Legard 18:34
Oh, yes. I went to Southall once
Richard Marden 18:37
Really? Well, they were shot there. And then what was happening? It all seems we're getting rather large and we all thought this will be a very good we're on to a very good thing here and then we're going to be splendid. And then they were doing also series on the lives of the great musicians. Chopin with Mary Ellis? playing Georges Sands
Alan Legard 19:03
Oh, yes, Mary Ellis
Richard Marden 19:05
Oh, God Who? famous guitarist who's older than John Williams and his family? Not Julian. Julian. Julian Bream of
a ghastly set can't remember . Anyway. So it all seemed rather splendid, except that when they went to do the life of Beethoven, the man who directed with a man called john Calthrab up who was the son of a famous actor called Donald Calthrab. Yeah. And he was incompetent and they had to stop it about three days into shooting because it wouldn't go together. Suddenly, things began to look. Somehow they weren't right anymore. And by that time, Francis and I had moved intoWardour Street with our potted versions of Julius Caesar, and Antony and Cleopatra, and we were working in some old cutting rooms that don't exist now called Acmade , cutting rooms on the corner Broadwick or whatever street it was or Broadith I can't remember now. At one wet morning, Monday morning, it was pouring rain, and we got there. And the cutting room manager said, you come in out of the rain, you mustn't touch anything, because he's impounded it all. Then checks bounced. And suddenly the whole thing was over in a fortnight. And it transpired that Hobhouse, this man who had started the whole process, good idea, had not one contract with anybody in America to take anything. His plan had been that he'd complete certain things, take them over, show them and then everybody's want them. He'd be under speculative, purely speculative venture. He borrowed 50,000 pounds, which is a lot of money in the Film Finance Corporation. Oh, did he? Yes. Because they also were doing these I think they did Muffin the Mule. They told me it really was quite a big enterprise. As I said, collapsed, we were eventually paid. Two weeks notice, forgot that. I think I'm still owed five and sixpence of taxes. That was one of those things. And so then, was that unfortunate and one first experience of the
Alan Legard 21:46
so there's that stuff and never saw the light of day?
Richard Marden 21:48
I mean, yes, whatever happened?
Alan Legard 21:51
Did anybody salvage it?
Richard Marden 21:53
I think the only thing that was possibly salvaged was Muffin the Mule , which could be sold because they exist Muffin the Mule Yeah, that was sold. I think that I don't think so. I don't think we ever completed in terms of mixing or anything like that. No, the potted Shakespeare's they may have sold some of those musical songs. Possibly.
Alan Legard 22:14
Actually, some of the some of the same Shakespeare stuff had been shot and partly completed. It would have been quite interesting archive material and those actors of those days. Oh,
Richard Marden 22:22
indeed. Because
Alan Legard 22:25
Channel Four
Richard Marden 22:27
actors have they had
Alan Legard 22:29
that in the past, haven't they within complete films? The classic example being I, Claudius
Richard Marden 22:34
Oh, yesterday? Well, no, that's why because if I remember rightly, I think they were directed by Desmond Davis who died tragically. Davis he was electrocuted. Yes, that's
Alan Legard 22:52
right now yeah, that was extraordinary one that has
Richard Marden 22:55
an accident. And he was a television writer, the very nice man. I find them but
Alan Legard 22:59
I don't know. But
Richard Marden 23:00
he's directed the little musical songs and he directed these potted Shakespeare's and in Julius Caesar Bruce Belfridge played Julius Ceasar think i right in saying I could be wrong about this. Cleopatra was played by Pauline Leps, I think, and Marc Anthony it was played by Robert Speight. would be good but whatever happened to any of that maybe I have no way of knowing because it just disappeared and there was an official receiver called Mr. Jeep's. But I don't know when this is not I have one whatever the only way you could ever find anything about any of that I would have thought and it may not get you anywhere would be go to Metro colour who about were taken over who took over Kays labs or whether there were any records from Kays because Kays would have processed all of it? Oh, yes. I think I think that the
Alan Legard 24:14
just depends really on if there was some sort of librarian who realised that it would have a
Richard Marden 24:20
bit of an interesting value for value. I don't know I got a message.
Alan Legard 24:27
Interesting, that would be lovely. Yeah. But it was handed over I mean, BFI we could probably do some research into the matter. Anyway, what happened next
Richard Marden 24:39
one, and then sell them that that book rapidly became beforeJack of Diamonds I mean, it was all around Jack of Diamonds. That's all a bit in that 1950s and Murder at the Windmill was followed by a second feature for Butcher's shot at Walton and directed by McLean Rogers. This was edited by Ted Richards Ted, Richards was a nice editor man who worked a lot for Butchers in those days doing sort of second feature in type which has had an enormous
Alan Legard 25:16
output and they
Richard Marden 25:16
did and in fact, I have to like to recap slightly when I was still on the sound camera, being seconded to Walton for two weeks, when Butchers were making a film with Frank Randall called When you come Home, Blakely wasn't around Blakely, BlakelyBlakely, and Blakely , was Manchester led Butchers Manchester excellent moves about the Butchers bank union and I can't Who was it? Butchers in? There was somebody else because somebody once said to me that when Butchers decided that they wanted to make a movie, they'd like to make this movie sort of musical based on musical songs and ballads and something and they said the production meeting would sort of consist of why don't we do what about When you come Home? How does that go? Well, da da da that's rather nice we'll do that. But another one was I'll turn to you, which was another ballard of 19th century I think, but I just did this fortnight When you come Home. And Ted Richards was editing that assisted by a very nice lady who eventually came to succed Ted Richards called Chrissy Home.
Alan Legard 26:41
Remember chris Chris Home? She worked with my assistant for a time she's a sweet woman. And she was with me on a film for group three.
Richard Marden 26:50
Oh, that's what what would be. She was
Alan Legard 26:53
at South Hall studios, where they i think is
Richard Marden 26:56
no she was she was working then with Ted and we. The end is about that. Frank Randall. It was a film that Butchers thought might bring Randall down to the south rather than the North, where he had a huge following up in the
Alan Legard 27:15
Lancashire so on He did indeed in a real
Richard Marden 27:16
Redcisle? didn't work. I mean, I think it would went on the Granada Harrow they took it off after two days. It was a pretty ghastly film, actually. But was the music. He was the janitor of an Edwardian musical. But curiously enough, directed by john Baxter. Oh, yes. Which was sort of an interesting shot and tsunami
Alan Legard 27:40
who later became with Grierson
Richard Marden 27:43
founder of group three, group three yes and had been sort of important before the war I hadn't he We only
Alan Legard 27:50
made a film called Love on the Dole. And of course, well, many films before that.
Richard Marden 27:54
That was his big. That was a big social.
Alan Legard 27:58
hit film. Deborah Kerr her first starring role.
Richard Marden 28:03
That's right. That's right. So anyway, sorry. I've gone back on that. And I suddenly remembered this thing. Yes. And so after that, but it was down to ???????????????
Alan Legard 28:16
I think remember, at some point in your career, you were you were a documentary weren't you
Richard Marden 28:20
Well, I used to sort of go float about you see because when there wasn't anything happening I used to work for data on occasions really up in town because I worked. Remember Dick Story? Yes, I do. Yes. Now I worked with him.
Robert
Alan Legard 28:39
Kruger, Cougar,
Richard Marden 28:40
Jack Chambers. And they're making films for the Coal Board . That's right. And I thought they would ring me up if I wasn't doing anything. That would be a little bit later. Would it be around 51 ish. Because there's some mining review. And then it was a ministry of works Film Unit for one week. I did. One worked where you could get a job.
Alan Legard 29:12
I was the assistant editor on the very first mining reviews really, because they were made not by data. They were made by crime Film Unit. They would have been Of course, right to start with because, well, a Coal Board filming it hadn't really started. Because the Coalboard filming it started about I suppose 48 49 And Frances Gyson involved? Yes, he was Yes, that's right. Yes. Because he was an editor with Rotha right when Rotha as well. Rotha's chief editor. I think he edited those big films that Rotha made World Aplenty and so on and then of course, then eventually Gyson didn't got involved directly with all the Coal Board work because he was appointed producer. That's right. Well, that was much later on.
Richard Marden 29:59
He went to Highgate too I think yeah, I have a feeling. I mean, Somebody once told me that there's not that this maytters . But yes, I remember him. And that I think was about 51. We interviewed Francis.
Alan Legard 30:14
We went down to his place and we you rarely. alsas he died a few months ago.
Richard Marden 30:19
Really? No, I remember I remember him as a sort of amiable rather volatile character, I think,
Alan Legard 30:28
but I kind of might have been in his you. He was fairly easygoing when we saw him.
Richard Marden 30:32
I mean, I'm thinking
Alan Legard 30:39
volatile Well, exactly. So I remember jumping up around with rage in the cutting room.
Richard Marden 30:45
molesting everybody. So then
Alan Legard 30:51
said that was, yeah, well, you said
Richard Marden 30:52
that was what was sort of happening. When ever there wasn't, well, wherever things happened, if you know if they would ring me or I go and see them, and they'd say, We have to do something for us. Now, so it was all a good overall freelance sort of experience.
Alan Legard 31:15
Didn't you work with Bob Angel? Perhaps that was later
Richard Marden 31:17
Oh that was later because that was when we found the film partnership. Oh, yes. Right. Sorry about that, but so go back to you. But then still on the sort of the in between the thought of feature and the data and all the rest of it in about 1950 I think probably not long after Murder at the Windmill, actually. Duggie Byers had another pitch to cut and basically they said but I became his first assistant, which was a film called The late Edwin Black which was made at Worton Hall studios. And wherever it is, Hounslow Whorton Hall was, whatever it is, yes. And it was produced by Ernest Gartside and directed by Morris Elvey who was an odl doyen I suppose.
Alan Legard 32:11
He must have made directed hundreds of films. He started
Richard Marden 32:15
directing in back 1930. And it was photographed by Steven Dade. And it had Geraldine Fitzgerald, David Ferrer, Roland Culver. And it was from a stage play. It was a murder
Alan Legard 32:34
on Fox not too long ago. Yes, he
Richard Marden 32:36
did a terrible film. I think that the very boring film have really nothing
Alan Legard 32:43
rather nice look at
Richard Marden 32:45
I think it looks all right. I remember Maurice who was a rogue really I think, really, he was a terrible liar.
Alan Legard 32:56
Was he
Richard Marden 32:57
out he I remember this curious that we have a first assistant called Ken Ricks. And operator, a camera operator was Murray. Grant has been dead for quite a while now. And for about the first few days when rushes came, Maurice would say Oh, oh, yeah, but I didn't know. I thought we were I thought it was you know, slightly different sort of setup. They got fed up with this
Alan Legard 33:36
is one of those.
Richard Marden 33:37
So after about the five
Alan Legard 33:38
of a microwave, or people
Richard Marden 33:40
after about the first two or three days, Murray and Ken got this thing going on the floor between them when they get Maurice would get the set up is there to motivate why we wouldn't look through the viewfinder so Murray looked, through then say Ken come over here. kind of look at you ever noticed. It was not the million years you wouldn't notice it? And I think and Maurice will be just here because he couldn't resist having to look because he'd hear this conversations, you know, you get something they get him to look through the viewfinder that way. So that tended to stop certain amount of that
Alan Legard 34:21
It's a lovely story that actually I think it's amazing. It hasn't. It's different more than I expect.
Richard Marden 34:28
What would happen is that Geraldine who was a very intelligent lady, and she had certain rights, like she had I think approve, or her husband had to approve the first cut. And we got to the point where we were going to do music. And she had had the right to see the film. But she'd been to Ireland didn't understand that okay, she dies, and she hadn't been available and everybody thought they can't do it , so we can go ahead and record the music and there we are. And she came back about two days before the music session. And I must say she's very quick because in those days, you broke the film down in the music section, mark it up And she said, now said to Duthe lot. Because I know it's nothing to do with you. But I think they're trying to pull the wool over my eyes. I am going to insist on seeing it. But today what I will do, I'm quite happy to sit through the music sections of the regstof it. I don't want you to put it all back together as the terrible boe thinks. And I said yes. And she didn't do that. She said I don't I probably will have nothing to say about it at all . But I will not let people trt and fob me bless her heart she did that didn't cause us any major health issues. I'd be happy what she saw. I think she's perfectly happy. We did have we have no problems.
We went to record the music at Shepperton when they still have the music stage. And it was composed by God is named I used to know is that he was athe man who also composed the music for The Matter Matter of Life and Death.
Alan Legard 36:30
Oh, you may know them. Alan Grey
Richard Marden 36:33
Yes, Alan Grey sort of Hungarian or whatever he was. And that was the moment in, the composers. Go on. I think about quite big that Maucice at one point, thought he wanted a big crescendo finding whether in the clinch or something like that .Alan say If you wish to vulgarise your picture, you can have it
Alan Legard 37:00
lovely.
Richard Marden 37:02
That was by recollection,
Alan Legard 37:04
nice little bit of temperament.
Richard Marden 37:05
And then we dubbed the picture John Cox mixed it at us at Shepperton at of at societies 50. In a dubbing theatre that doesn't exist anymore. I've had a job with him for a long time. And I remember Maurice saying once. Now I want them to be terribly quiet here because it's hard to hear them. Remember John saying Maurice you can't have it as low as that because they won't hear it to get dropped. Well, yeah. Now I'm accessible. But natural if you couldn't hear it, that was taken up to thePlaza late after the last house running there. And I remember Maurice and we couldn't hear it and the house was still warm. I thought whats that got to do it. And then but anyway.
Alan Legard 38:00
So you had to have another go
Richard Marden 38:01
that we had never had we mix that real and that
Alan Legard 38:04
was his music. Just the main thing it really the the crucial thing was always intelligibility of dialogue was a crucial thing. And if people were worried about that, then they tended to music tended to get lost.
Richard Marden 38:16
And I think that Maurice just got a bee in his bonnet, as he was quite capable of doing and. But there it was, I remember it seeing it on the box, actually, about 20 years ago. Okay, one Sunday afternoon, I thought I will have a look a bit. I can't remember where which was on commercial television. I don't remember Absolutely. If it was I know they always cut things around a bit. But there was to my mind of any one mysterious moment in the film. And that is when I think candles blow out or
Alan Legard 38:53
Oh, yes, yes, it was a bit tricky.
Richard Marden 38:54
And that was a bit they had cut to the commercial. And cut back from the commercial after it. Absolutely. I rang them up in a fury and I said Now listen. This film was made better as well. I said the producers dead the directors dead the editors dead. I happen to be the father I know and the remaining people who worked on the film as an assistant editor. I said I don't know why you ever bother to put it on anyway because it's not a very good movie. But I said it is absolutely incredible to me. But the one possible moment which was vaguely interesting. You managed to cut out to fit in your commercials.
Alan Legard 39:40
what sort of reply Did you get to that?
Richard Marden 39:43
I think they just said we'll take note of what your saying said
thank you for your interest. Yes, yes, exactly. As you can see what happens.
Slightly digressing now nothing to do with anything other than looking at the box a few years ago. I suppose about ten I was not working. I was in one afternoon, there was a movie on one of Cyril Frankel's films, which I hadn't seen. And I thought why not have a look at this, and I was quite happy they bought you get them, suddenly the sound went off. And I don't understand that because I've fiddled around with change the channel on the set, save my set. rang, I was off about five minutes. And I rang up whoever it was, and they said, No, it can't be because I said what it was, they'd say, well, it does. But it doesn't, because I need to speak to an engineer there because somebody said that, you know, they kept these pictures about I don't want to talk about there's nothing to do with cutting about that there wasn't any sound. And I said, I want to speak to an engineer and they somebody came on and said, No can't. No, where do you live? And I said, Eccleston Grove no. We monitor everything that goes out of you getting from this transmitter, and so on and so forth. And then I said, Well, I'm sorry, but it just doesn't make any sense to me at all. And I want you to make further inquiries. Oh, my God. Oh, pompous. I gave my telephone number. To my total amazement, when it was over, the phone rang and it was one of the engineers there Yes, I'm sorry. There was a breakdown in the area in which you live for that period of time. I said you know, I said yes. When he said when it was a scene in coffee bars, I said yeah, he said well actually what happened was she said to him and he said to her and then they
tell me what
Alan Legard 41:43
everybody is watching.
Richard Marden 41:44
Anyway, I digress sorry that will they be so anyway, there was a later week later Rit Black after that. I managed to get a short fill in job also at Whorton Hall Herbert Wilcox picture called Into the Blue, which was directed by him, edited by Bill Lewthwaite, and had Michael Wilding Constance Cummings Jack Hulbert and Odile Desoir in in this film that started off being directed by somebody else. And it wasn't working working. And Herbert apparently went over to the south of France where they were making it and took it over. And Jerry Hamblin was first assistant to Bill and I was just a supernumerary that time helping out on the dubbing panic. But one of those days, that period of time when we thought too heavy, that'd be very, but you'd have the whole film in two days, weekend at Sheperson. Then they were like it is now. Then I think I went back to Data, possibly for a bit.
Alan Legard 42:59
Oh, did you? Yes. So who would you be? Well,
Richard Marden 43:01
I would be with Dick Storey I was Paul Kruger and
Alan Legard 43:07
I could edit it. He was he was the director. No,
Richard Marden 43:11
I'm not sure what he did that. I mean, we just used to see each other regularly.
I
never quite knew what
Alan Legard 43:21
But me know if you're working with Victoria, you would be the assistant with him. Will you be doing a bit of editing?
Richard Marden 43:26
Oh, no, I was just an assistant. But
Alan Legard 43:28
when you were working on the features, presumably were you I mean, did the journey have first and the second was assessed
Richard Marden 43:34
to the second assistant but by now I was. I was when I
Alan Legard 43:37
was working in group three, there was a second features and I actually had a that's right, we did have to we had to assistant that's right And then I think I did my own track laying . That's the thing in those days. That's
Richard Marden 43:48
why the editors did there. you didn't have a sound editor?
Alan Legard 43:53
Which of course I always enjoyed the rate thing. We were always under pressure of course. I mean, our films are small scale, so they were manageable. Now of course it's quite impossible now with totally
Richard Marden 44:04
different Well, it's it's a full track. Yeah. But then I did a bit I think one week where the Ministry of works
Alan Legard 44:16
is you saying the Ministry of work?
Richard Marden 44:18
what we've been doing, I because I went there but Tubby Englander
Alan Legard 44:23
also, funnily enough, Dave was talking about
Richard Marden 44:25
when he but he wouldn't remember me because for some reason, I don't know what we were doing. He was somewhere in Lambeth and more or less, it was sort of understood if something else came up in the feature line. I could take it. Then I went to Denham on Disney's Robin Hood, which was directed by Ken Alec and edited by Gordon Pilkington.
Alan Legard 44:52
Oh yes, there's
Richard Marden 44:52
a name I haven't heard wrong with Richard Todd, Joan rice and Peter Finch. And I joined that because They've been shooting a long time they nearly finished shooting and Anne Coates was film editor. And what had happened was Walt was coming over to see as far as they've got and certainly needed a bit of a little bit of panic. So Annie was put out to assembly cutter so she could go on with some editing and I was brought on as the first assistant to replace her. And so that's really, I've met Pilc before. That's really how I first met Annie and stayed on that and.....................................
Alan Legard 0:02
Right, well, you're on the Robin Hood do really arrive
Richard Marden 0:07
really alive and we ran, I suppose I don't suppose the film was completely cut. I honestly can't remember but we ran. What must have been a good more, more or less all of it I think for him, as far as I remember one afternoon in a theatre at Denham, and he was there with the director, the producer Perc Pierce, who was part of the designer organisation in Perc Pierce I think it also been an animator on Snowwhite
Alan Legard 0:38
I believe. Oh, right. Yes.
Richard Marden 0:40
Anyway, he was producing it for Walt. And we were all there. And his staff said, Thank you, I'll come back tomorrow, I will run it reel by reel far as I remember he came back, we started screening the next day reel by reel in the morning. And he had his finger on absolutely everything that he had thought about the day before. Can we do this? Can we do that? What happened about that? What happened about that?
Alan Legard 1:11
Was this sort of very detailed as always, it sort of just general?
I mean, it was, it seemed,
Richard Marden 1:16
I mean, certainly in terms of story and character, in the sense of, haven't we got a shot that doesn't look right, come we got a shot, reveal a bit more of a genre away in there or something like that. And he had his director there Ken Anakin and his script writer, and it was all very amicable. And he knew exactly what he wanted to see he knew exactly the way it should be. And he sat through until I suppose we probably went on into the afternoon. Yeah. That was it. And he did. Thank you all very much shook us all by the hands of all and you shake man the Disney
Alan Legard 1:56
did he then expect to see the result of your re read? No, he
Richard Marden 2:00
left and he went back, I went back home and left it to Pierce . As far as I know, I'd whether whether Pilc
Alan Legard 2:09
so he's not as sad as your hands on producing. That's pretty good. I always thought of them as the animator and then the big executive, but he really was,
Richard Marden 2:18
I think, everything I'd ever heard about him, you know, Pilc from whether Pilc over with him for to show it to him a lot. I don't know cuz I didn't I wasn't on film anymore. But certainly having talked to Peter Britner?, because Peter worked a lot with Disney. And I think that he always know that Peter went over to Los Angeles for with with films for Disney And he will be interesting about that, because I'm pretty sure that whatever Peters ever told me is it Walt saw everything and talked about it and and he would have no nonsense in the sense of if he had some, according to Peter, if he had some rough guidelines and say, well, oh, yeah. Well, Peter, you can do that by tomorrow or Thursday. I will see you come to that Peter in Kenya.
Alan Legard 3:05
So very well organised.
Richard Marden 3:07
And I shouldn't preempt Peter. But good point. Yeah. But it's something that I think that you know, he was a man who at that time knew not a hands on producer and also one has to remember that then, on their first time I ever come across it. The whole film was storyboarded, from beginning to end. Each shot was what it was, it was there was no deviation from it, it was painted out, drawn out the director put ths camera, there put that lens on. And that was what he was that actually went on in that shot. And then it went to this shot. And so in the sense that Disney was
Alan Legard 3:49
going back to the animation,
Richard Marden 3:51
exactly, that he would know exactly what his picture is going to look like. And in the sense, you could say that is really where all his films are picturebook picturebook films. They're not that reel a bit now. Because they're drawing a real life. It's all the same. But that's changed since his death. But but so that was that then we went nice
Alan Legard 4:16
to hear good things about Disney because he
gave him a bad press
programme about him on television.
Richard Marden 4:23
I mean, I think it's the fascist, I'm sure he probably was. But I've given you the the differences. But people, talented people in their own field aren't necessarily particularly pleasant, amiable or clever in any other field
Alan Legard 4:39
sounds though he might be a rather nice motivator.
Richard Marden 4:42
But I mean, he was very pleasant to us at that time. He was probably I didn't know I saw that programme. and a lot of it made sense to me, because I could see Be the sort of simplest in a sense, simple. soul well, you know, I've been alright they should all be pleased. employing them. We don't want any unAmerican nonsense here. Rather uncomplicated, foolish and dangerous when you have power. Perhaps Yeah. But you know, I can't speak any other thing to 20 minutes that I saw him you know . But then well i think one went on to another film Pickwick Papers, which was directed by Noel Langley and rest of it adapted by Noel Langley. The first film he had done he directed produced by George Minter for Renown photograph by Wilkie Cooper and edited by Annie Coates . I was met Annie and I was per for . She asked me this week it was the first pictures you ever cut. I was could I be her first asistant And so we've remained very good friends ever since. Yes. And so I unfortunate was ill towards the end of it and couldn't finish it. But but it was Annies his first picture and I think she coped with it very very Well, I mean, I not being patronising Annie Look, I think she's, she knew what she was about. Yeah.
Alan Legard 6:11
Very nice lady and she and I went along to that BAFTA evening when she was interviewed by Sam Sidney Samuelsson Oh, yes. Saw a Tribute To her ? I thought it came when she came over so well.
Richard Marden 6:24
No, she's a dear soul Well, I mean, we see Joe she was over my she came over supper with me. Last year customers over from Los Angeles I was hoping to go to the states in February I forgot to she's there. Now that she edited that and James Hayter plays Pickwick Nigel Patrick was in it. who played Mr Jingle. James Donald played.
Alan Legard 6:51
I remember that
Richard Marden 6:52
Kathleen Harrison Mrs. Bardell my god and Hermione Baddley though she was Mrs. Bardell Kathleen. I can't remember. Yeah, I know, Kathleen Harrison Hermione Baddley. And Hermione Gingold . She played the headmistress of the seminary for young lady. Where did you shoot that Walton That was shot at Walton
Alan Legard 7:13
did some quite big films there
Richard Marden 7:15
they did a small studio. They did and it looked very good. And it was James Donald played the athletic one of the trio or what? Not I don't whatever doesn't matter.
And that would that was on the box, not someone that's not a bad movie? I mean, it's an adaptation those
Alan Legard 7:41
days as if they were making those sort of comparatively, not necessarily big scale but complex films. And there they would they would make money and just you know, get them on, you know, yes. This was really the heyday,
Richard Marden 7:56
of course, the price would by modern standards be nothing and then probably about £120,000. I mean, you've got to multiply which I sped things up to over a million but yes, but even so even though there's still a feasible,
Alan Legard 8:11
something of that size that could get their money back make a profit
Richard Marden 8:15
was after that, that does do that. As I've said, much earlier Godfrey Gennison is my oldest friend, and we've been friends Happily Ever since natural
Alan Legard 8:25
now or was it? Was he still at Crown film unit ? Yes, he was still at Crown
Richard Marden 8:29
So with Bob and so was Arthur . And it was around about the time that when Crown closed, folded, folded early 52. It was like that's right. When I was finishing off on Pickwick papers, I think. And Godfrey told me that he had often asked that I had thought that they would try and get together and form a little company to make whatever they could make with the idea that everybody would take a job until something came up, and then you do what you could when it came along.
Alan Legard 8:58
And these are this is the phoenix rising from the ashes of of Crown film unit It's a wonderful little close down by the government in 1952. Spring.
Richard Marden 9:10
And he asked me if I'd be interested. And I said, Well, yes, I would, because it sounds fun and interesting thing to do.
So we got you'd Godfrey have to correct I think we only put in five pounds each may have been 10 pounds. I have a seat with five pounds of money, which we'll buy some stationery so that you could least have a letter of heading and so
there was we didn't have an office with where there was an office in the photographic shop in Harrow, which belonged to other people from Crown, whose names one of whom I spoke to the other day, because Julian Spyler had asked me by the name editing about of nice Have he'd won Julian and left a telephone number some I can't read. I can't remember his name. Godfrey will remember it might come to me in the course of the day, but certainly people lived in Harrows they lived in Harrow had a photographic shop. And and we were allowed to use the part of their place to an address. And the first film that came along was a 16 millimetre silent film for the Educational Supplies Association about a aircraft hangar door, which was being made for the Brabazon hangar, oh my goodness, or something like that. And as far as I remember, it Sid Sharples Sid was sort of in charge of except I knew it was going on. And then there's Bob Angel we're talking about now, I'm skipping a bit and you have to talk to the others and look at the history of the Godfrey standard. But what happened was that it became quite apparent that you couldn't really do both. That's to say, try and work and then make yourself available, whatever you could do when the job came up. And it coincided 51 50 to 52 when we were going with the hangover of 3d in the Festival of Britain. Oh, yes. And the old NFT that used to have 3d
Alan Legard 11:42
that my previous Yeah.festival of Britain. Yeah.
Richard Marden 11:45
So 3d still little films needed to be made. Bob had a connection with stereo techniques. Spottiswode was Bob Raymond and Nigel Spottiswoode, him and somebody else and they needed a bit of product. So we did a film. Again, I wasn't involved because I have no reason to be involved because nothing that I could contribute to it, which was about Madeira called Summer Island with Bob and Godfrey went out therev I think Arthur did
Alan Legard 12:18
and Aquila,
Richard Marden 12:20
our Aquila airlines flew them out that Casa de Portugal paid for the hotel accommodation, was shot in Ferrania colour. And it was shot by the great a great camera man. We all know, and I forgotten his name. And then he is and his original day wasWolfgang Suschitzy Suschitzy was shot by Sushitzky shot by him. And Bob, I think put it together and that was all done. And throughout then, we had another one. Which with because they thought they needed more product. And we made one called Vintage 28 which I did get involved in, which is vintage 28 which was a wine was it no it was a it was a it was Bentley motorcar Right? And this has to do with old vintage motor cars. And we Bob directed and sort of wrote it with Lord Montague using his estate for those who get cars from it. The young man called Desmond Montgomery was supposedly GI came and looked at a lot of vintage motor cars , Julian Orchard play the sort of Vega was added with a 20 minute thought of what was issued on ferrania. Now this was black and white 35 35 and we shot this down in various places. But I put it together we dubbed it and did all this and then we thought well, we ought to have a screening because we need we need to get agencies and people together to come and see this. So we hiredthe old National Film Theatre . One morning we ran Summer e Island. Vintage 28 we got Aqua airways to fly over some Madeira cake and the Casa de Portugal. Clouds some wine made a little sort t of do have it. Yeah. I felt terribly important as the launching of film Partners thought Oh, this is all wonderful way to do nothing. But that's not quite true. It went on and we did another film but you have your own premises eventually. Well, yes. We moved to Wembley, actually at this round about this time to move to a little office at Wembley, and we're now the cutting room in Wembley, when Gilkerson was there with Rays and various other little mushroom companies were there. And we did Vintage 28. from there we also did a film for the Petroleum Company, which came to us from film centre who were kind and they said, we've got all these rushes right, this burning oil well in the Qatar Peninsula, all in Ferrania colour Will you put them break them finish them into a film for us 10 minutes
Alan Legard 15:43
when when we john Phelan was out in
Richard Marden 15:46
Baghdad. And so we thought this is wonderful. And it mentioned, just take out the trash and finish it by the way through to a bad print that was going on. And so we had to be competitive. And we did whatever we thought was a sensible budget. And we went to back to the film centre who were very good to us very sensible people and said Now look, you said you can do it to this. Your case? You probably could. But what you haven't thought about is the overhead of the fact that you seem to think that the chairman of the Petroleum Company will come see when you want him to. He won't, he'll be abroad. This is going to take much longer than you think. And you got to pay for overhead. So work it out, and we'd tell him that we did. And it was very sensible because they thought otherwise these people are gonna go mad. But
Alan Legard 16:45
yeah, but then of course they would be.
Richard Marden 16:47
Right. Yes. So they were very good, being realistic and being totally realistic. And so we did that. And then quite all worked out. We did. Queen Mary died. And that was the 3d one. That was 3d Queen Mary's funeral in three d. Yes. I remember that
Alan Legard 17:03
out in I'm just seeing that in the cinema, I think
Richard Marden 17:05
yes, he was on at five news theatres on certainly in the West End, because I remember we all went to see we took a news theatre each. I've got the Cameo in Piccadilly and I seem to have the most ghastly they can have they've got left on the right eye .
Alan Legard 17:20
Oh my
Alan Lawson 17:21
wrong way round gosh, it goes cross eyed
Richard Marden 17:24
and people coming out of mystery that I'm bloody blind. They couldn't get into the box,he wouldn't let me in. Anyway, they got it sorted out.
Alan Legard 17:34
It had a nickname that termed it Bob Bob Angel gave it a nickname. I walked with it, I can't remember a coffin in your lap.
That's right a coffin in your lap They got
Unknown Speaker 17:46
something about the 3d camera
Richard Marden 17:49
the 3d camera that they had. There were two Newman Sinclair cameras, which were facing each other with a mirror so the lens was in front of the mirrors. And so that was like that. Now that I think Stereo Techniques did actually then build a proper camera. And I think it was made by Vintens , but whether anything very much was ever shot on it. Whether it was using the two cameras facing each other with a mirror in between, or whether it was in fact two cameras lying side by side. I can't remember Godfrey or Bob or Arthur would be the ones to ask because they are not. They had two separate categories. They all were all bounded on one set. Basically it was one object because it was just one very difficult not unwieldy thing to do. But it was Bob and Arthur and Godfrey would know much more about it than I do because that was their field which wasn't mine I saw it but it was never I didn't understand all the technicalities of it
Alan Lawson 19:09
extraordinary good quality wasn't it I remember
Richard Marden 19:11
it was good quality and and Did you see the Spottiswode Raymond was film land or less his brother Nigel who was the optical man was because he made he designed lighthouse optical and in fact Nigel only died about four years ago because I remember reading I think the media obit about him and Nigel was a very quiet man . And Roger, Spottiswode was Reubens son successful Hollywood the nice guy and because last time I saw Roger to talk to which was about 10 years. We'll We're in Los Angeles. I said, What about Nigel I said your arms was slightly libellous as well. Now Joel met up with a sort of a very attractive rather brassy lady and I'm not sure whether she was in showbiz or not, who Raymond couldn't stand obviously totally different characters and as far as I could make out the vibe that just knew them at that time she was amiable as I say rather brassy lady whether she'd been a chorus girl or wasn't a chorus I don't know that may be just too good to be true then we all finished split up their own things years ago by the Roger Pen. So whatever happened to man he said, oh, I've noticed Well, they got divorced of course it didn't work if situations favourable settle and she I think actually did marry into the aristocracy I think Nigel went back to lighthouse designing. Of course, poor old Raymond was killed, but car crash was
Alan Legard 21:13
he kill? I didn't I'd forgotten that.
Richard Marden 21:16
I knew he died comparatively. Oh, yes, he was killed. fastest car. I think back in
Alan Legard 21:22
70 is he was in the 70s remember people going down to his funeral.
Richard Marden 21:27
And, but so film partnership went on. And I,
Alan Legard 21:33
I think remember you had two premises in Great Portland street. They were they were But after I left it, I
left it by
Richard Marden 21:40
about a year or so because, well, all amicabally because we're all still great friends. But I felt I was interested with basically what features much more
Alan Legard 21:51
if you've asked, quite a person changed working on sort of, I
Richard Marden 21:54
think I wouldn't get him away from the studio, or anything. I think it was great fun. And I think we all enjoyed ourselves. I think we also all found ourselves need to try and make a bit more
Alan Legard 22:07
money. Well, this is the problem and it's always has to be in a documentary working with films you do have a problem but
Richard Marden 22:14
and so I quite amicably with I decided, you know, I'd like to go back into freelance work again and so on. And so then that Michael John's took my place
Alan Legard 22:28
well, he took over as a as the editor.
Richard Marden 22:30
And then they moved to Great Portland street and they managed to getrather anmazed? because there was this problem of getting work and the problem of money. We were be underfunded anyway. And although there was somebody that came in after I had left nice man Godfrey tell you all about him who helped with brought some money in
Alan Legard 22:52
but didn't didn't Richard Dimbleby become chairman. Well,
Richard Marden 22:55
what happened was that after that, they amalgamated Richard Dimbleby have a company called Curtain films. So Dimbleby appeared to film partnerships to films TFTS as it were were amalgamated, which gave them some extra clout. And there's a funny story, I'm sure Bob must have told you. under the banner of TFS films, they were make a film for the Church of England, Bob. I think it was the Bishop of Guilford, and god forbid excuse but my name is Angel appeared in films. But that's Bob story so . shouldn't be at that. So they and then Godfrey went up to Manchester golf, Godfrey got married in fifty six, to Pat They opened a branch in Manchester. And so what happened was that this went on to the film film partnership, I suppose I'd have to look it up but probably into about the late 50s, early 60s, and then it became part that people needed to do more of themselves. So they were doing that. I went on into feature back into the features back into the feature system, then
fifty three, fifty four,
I worked with Russ Lloyd on the seashore.at Camden? and with John Trumper assistant to set them on Escapade.
Alan Legard 24:44
Are you on that way. So
that was
Richard Marden 24:48
Philip Leacock that was Philip Leacock . And then then I went to going field outing from either out this last year when I went Work for Rank screen saudiences . We did a film about documentary film about the longs. boat people who know the canal boat people say what's called Rank screen audiences when screen audiences it was in the Hilstead? I think it was in those day? And then one of those rather strange stories which I don't put any credence to because I'm not I don't think superstitious. Why was it Rank Screen audiences? Who had time for the work very much to do. And the girls in the office started playing this tumbler game, you know, which is like a planchette. Except you put your fingers on the sout Yes, yeah, I do cut out the letters of the alphabet and put them on the circle. And again, I knew theoretically, if you ask anybody there, the tumbler is supposed to move and spells out messages. Naturally, when you go and play this game, which I was called into. You want something to happen. But you I don'y recall ever. Anybody actually pushed it anyway. While I was working at screen audiences John had rung me up John Trumper. And said, Could I dub Partnet of Islands for him? And I said, I can't, because I'm still working screen audiences at that time. I thought that was that So once you've turned something down, you never expected to come back. Because you have to make that arrangement about so I went on. And then this film that I was doing was coming to an end of though finishing off in about a week. And this was when I went out to play this silly game. And this is not a word of a lie It said, there was a message for me with uncertainty and message coming in. And it said, new job soon What I did the wishful thinking . I didn't have any conscious thought of pushing it. And then I said something, I think if it tells me the name or the initials of the producer or something, and it went to JL didn't me anything , to me at all. So that was that the next day, the phone rings was John Trumper on the line again and said, Martin whatever his name was was dubbing the picture, had been taken ill and she can't go on or . What was my position about that? I said, Well, matter of fact, I think I can get away in about a week because I finished this. And it was produced by Jimmy Laurel
Alan Legard 27:27
Funny National Film Finance Corporation.
Richard Marden 27:30
And so this nonsense I put it in for what its worth
Alan Legard 27:34
good. Now you're a believer in all this. So? Yeah.
Richard Marden 27:38
So then I worked with with John and John and I've always been good friends. Dubbed ??????????? , which we had the dub at night because Shepperton was busy during the day, which is not the nicest way of how good airy but we did.
Alan Legard 27:57
I suppose you've got behind schedule because of the Drack lane
Richard Marden 28:00
because they can't remember whether it was always main that they'd have to do it for whatever reason. Things are busy then. But if Both Willa directed it.
And
Jimmy produced it, john cut it. And that was based on a book by Arthur Grimble that's rght pattern of islands. Yes, it was called something else came out under the name of Pacific Destiny, which was an incredidle titke because everybody thought it was the Marines of Okinawa or somewhere, but I mean, it's Yeah. But that they said was the stupidity that they always had
Alan Legard 28:42
there's a requirement for international screening or something like that, that sort of thing. Because a pattern of oslands is a lovely title for
Richard Marden 28:51
okay, but also those that knew the book would know what it was all about those that knew the book wouldn't have gone to Pacific destiny.
Alan Legard 28:58
But I mean, those who didn't know the title of the book would have been intrigued by the title anyway.
Richard Marden 29:03
So with the usual sort of incompetent Yeah, way they look at these things. It was changed that I remember John being very angry about it.
Alan Legard 29:11
I'm kind of I could understand that.
Richard Marden 29:14
And so that was that and so that was round about 5657. And then I get freelancing and worked as a sound editor now. Not I think the best
Alan Legard 29:36
sound level was right because you were dubbing that one. So you are then I think I got in touch typecast you a bit Yes, I
Richard Marden 29:43
got involved with the television series called The Buccaneers.
Alan Legard 29:47
They keep on showing that on on my cable, and
Richard Marden 29:52
they're terribly badly done appalling . I think one thing I thought was that
Alan Legard 29:55
the one was a Robert Show. That's Dan Tempest . So what about three days ago?
Richard Marden 30:02
It's a very good to me . Well, sort of familiar faces from the past. No that's right Robert Shaw was a sweet man, nice man. And Sid Cole was associate producer. Dickie Sidwell was one of the editors. Yes. And so was
Alan Legard 30:19
the so many names I hadn't heard for years and
Richard Marden 30:22
years and years, who stopped them hope I'm doing very sadly used to be Jack house's assistant years ago called Joe Jago was on Joe Jago was I think involved with the loss of Hannah Weinstein was producer. She was producing them Yes, Buccaneers and Robin Hood's and then she went on to do the Four just Men and various other things. So they had at that time Walton studios and Twickenham because we were at Twickenham studios and on Robin Hood was it was a Walton
Alan Legard 31:01
work going there was a there was a lot of when I am in the editing
Richard Marden 31:06
days by ITV That's right. I remember being sound editor I was asked to go down to Falmouth where they have the Galleon for in order to get sea effects. Explosion with the cannons and who did I go down there with Brian sound recordist whom I knew or thought he has ago can't remember but not very nice man. And we went down and Bob Day was the second unit director went to Hollywood did quite well there now another nice man and we had this business of trying to get open air sea effects with you suddenly realised you're doing a lot of it was 16th there'sits never quite I mean there's always a distant car well you know you know more about this than I did but but the funny thing was that we did were able to record bangs by throwing charges of gelignite over the side with a little time fuse on it which could you possibly used for explosions for them cannons? Oh, yes. But the thing that the only thing that seemed to make this gelignite float were condoms. All right. Yes. So there is a thought of bill that went 150 condoms in 2 days. Yes. Anyway, all that nonsense went on then that was where I had Chrissy Homes as my assistant we used to call her Mrs. Homes. she was a very sweet very state charming lady. And she was the lady that had had a very sad life and and I had great affection for her and admiration actually, because I know this until after about a few months when you get talking to people on the phone, but she had been married in the First World War. Her husband had been killed. And I can't remember now whether the child was born before or after. But the child owas born and it was mentally deficient as you sort of spastic I gather was in a home in Kingston somewhere, I think. And was when I knew her I'm going back 40 years he was them I suppose in his 30s 35 ish. How she had her little cottage at Walton. She always really worked worked in Walton or Shepperton or the
Alan Legard 34:03
very close by
Richard Marden 34:05
She used to take him out, sometimes weekends he could come home and so on. And she and I always had this tremendous admiration for her because she was she was she was jolly. She had a sense of humour. I would never have known any of this. Let us not know
Alan Legard 34:25
I never knew that I will. I'm working. She worked with me but only for a few weeks.
Richard Marden 34:29
It was something the one discovered about her and she actually was the darling and she was a great friend of Vy Burdon. Remember, Vy Burdon
Alan Legard 34:37
of course that was why she was a group three I think because Vy was one of the what is known as the Baxter's spells when
Richard Marden 34:43
he was part of the montage its Love on the Dole
Alan Legard 34:49
Vy Burdon was Baxter's editor. And there was someone called Barabara K Emery that's right associate producer, and there was somebody else called Margaret Who was like the production secretary and they were they were all of the same age and they all work had been working with Baxter for years
Richard Marden 35:05
no that's right
Alan Legard 35:07
well I knewVi best of all of course because she was running by
Richard Marden 35:11
and Vi and Kitty homes friends that nice lot of people I said middle aged ladies and ladies they were then loved to go and stay with each other and then bitch each other behind each other's back afterwards I mean not not an unpleasant way but they had lovely weekend was good. quite understand why she does get through that and I came down Have a nice weekend but she is not that difficult.
Alan Legard 35:38
Ealing comedy, which rather sweet anyway, so that went on so Chris presumably had been in cutting on for years and years,
Richard Marden 35:48
she I think she taught David Lean how to number. I mean, I think she'd been a must have been a friend of old Pentecost to where she was in it from the 20s because she's dead. I could. She said that. They were still there, but she was at Walton when Chrissy White was one of the stars and she said I can't remember who it was but she said there used to be some hooks where you're the this that was hung out with belong to Chrissy White and so on other names and there was some she members. I can't remember some famous glamour boy who came by probably Germany would have in the 20s
came over to the studio. I think there was a sort of shower bang of fun and people arrived. And Chrissy said, well you know it was all quiet fun but one of them was a young man.
Life of young man and Chrissy was nobody's fool she was a dear. I was on for a long time, but she was a great lady. And my other assistant was Mary Castle
Alan Legard 37:08
Connie Mason with something Connie Mason yes, indeed, because she got Connie Mason worked with me. And Chris Homes, and Peter Musgraves I think it was
Richard Marden 37:21
it was open to rushes?
Alan Legard 37:23
ierson & Baxter.
Richard Marden 37:27
Now that's
Alan Legard 37:29
but that was 52. That was
Richard Marden 37:30
Yes. So this would have been by . 56
Alan Legard 37:35
Later on now you're getting under 56 or
Richard Marden 37:37
seven. Pacific Destiny And 5556 that was that's it. Then Oh, and then you are then the Buccaneers with Chrissie and Mary Castle who was my
Alan Legard 37:50
second one? Yes, Mary Castle.
Richard Marden 37:52
And she is another dear old friend. And then after that one got involved with dubbing, obviously, I did something called the Giant Behemoth science fiction thing with Robin Tasker was my assistant on that. Then we did the Doctors Dilemma for Gordon Hales, and Puffin Asquith.
Alan Legard 38:29
That was a lovely film.
Richard Marden 38:30
That was was Dirk Bogarde To me, Leslie Caron
Alan Legard 38:39
Oh, I love that film
Richard Marden 38:39
that was them. Then I'm worked on an Arthur Askey picture.
Alan Legard 38:47
Definitely had a very dramatic career,
Richard Marden 38:50
My career was totally with all sorts of things. And marvellous thing thinking about wanting to sound pretentious about it, but I don't think I've regretted any of it. I don't think there's anything that
Alan Legard 39:05
was a bad patch
Richard Marden 39:06
think there were bad patches bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, but I can't say the life on the whole, you'd have pretty good continuity hanen't you not bad. Not bad.
Alan Legard 39:15
On the whole in the industry, and particularly good continuing tended to have gaps but you obviously
Richard Marden 39:22
Now also, I first met John Schlesinger, way back in 1949. When he had made a film and he is still up at Oxford with a friend of his called Alan Cook. And they had already made a film called Black Legend.
Alan Legard 39:37
It was about the old highwayman
Richard Marden 39:39
Highwayman Yeah, they had now made this one called the Starfish, which was about a fairy tale set in Cornwall, made in holiday when the families have gone down there. Carlton Hill picked it up, and thought they'd try and blow it up from 16 millimetre to 35 mm and try and put a soundtrack on it. And I was sort of in between periods that 1959 60. But no money cuz I wasn't doing anything but no one fiddled around and then one got to know john and so
Alan Legard 40:18
all right, yeah, so that's lucky and lucky.
Richard Marden 40:21
Things. Um, John was an actor, I came down from Oxford, and he was always a very good photographer. And he became character actor, because he was he was never
Alan Legard 40:35
used to see him occasionally and
Richard Marden 40:36
left fly today filmed German soldiers, the old monk. But he also was very good at wanting to get on into the business. And he made a film called Sunday in the Park, which was a little 20 12 hours or whatever, it was 24 hours of Hyde Park,
Alan Legard 41:03
sort of impressionist.
Richard Marden 41:04
I don't think I ever saw that it was 16 mil. And it was again that 1966 I think it was, and he rang me up and said, Can I help him put the music on? So we went down to Leevers Rich , or wherever it was, we did. I can't remember we did this. And I said, this is the rather between us. What's up? JOHN wouldn't mind me saying this I said this, but I'm not trying to blow my own trumpet here. But john, I said, john, this is ridiculous. You know, you keep on making these films. Nobody sees and something's got to be done about it. So I knew Jimmy Lloyd, because having worked on Capital Violence, Jimmy was a nice man. And I rang him up and said, Look, our great friend of mine has made a film which I wonder if you've seen it, give us some advice about it. And he said well let me look at nothing I can do because I think you're getting out of film production myself now. And I said, Oh, all right. I'll see it. It very kind. And john showed it to him. And Jimmy, of course, had lots of contact. And Jimmy got john into the BBC, for monitor
Alan Legard 42:16
is right, that's how that's that's how you use the link. And that's how that Yeah, that's right.
Well done.
Richard Marden 42:22
And then is this links at the only is I'm saying this cuz it brings into perspective, something else. That is that came 5859 I was either dubbing the Arthur Askey picture Oh, and then they started a television series called The Third Man with Michael Rennie, and Bernard Cote was a producer who used to be and Bernard was very nice. And he said to me, what would you like to be one of the editors on it? And I said, Well, yes. Wonderful. Are you able to brake to cutting Well, this would be the first first sort of feature editing dramatic wise as you were And I'd accepted it. And after about a week or so, Jack Holmes rang up and said Shell are opening the in Southeast Asia. And we need somebody to come out and John's Schlesinger's going to make a film out for us. And john has said, Yhe'd come out if he could have an editor, we gather with you and work with you. Think about this. First of all I do I just accepted that. I went to Bernard. And I must say he was I can't thank him enough for this. I said Bernard look I'm sorry I know I said I would do that thing. And if you say I'm sorry, I can't believe it. That's it, you know, go with him, whatever. And but putting the problem to you. And he said, Well, you could start them couldn't do them. They're not going off until September, you could start them we can get somebody else to take your place. I said, Well, if you're agreeable to that, that's marvellous. So I started off, did a few of those then Tony Gibbs took over from me. And that was his break into anything, really. And I went out to Singapore, by which time John old shrewdy had decided it wasn't the time to leave England. So he didn't, but I went anyway and was out there for 18 months. Dear Julian Spiro did the film that John was going to do. So that's how I met Julian.
Alan Legard 44:29
He actually went to a British Transport
Richard Marden 44:31
He did Yes, he, he made a Terminus. I didn't know how that ended all. And then of course, the time I got back, John had made a Kind of Loving
Alan Legard 44:43
Olh Kind of Loving The first one I remember Yes, the first feature film that he'd made when he was finishing off Terminus, they are the artists tests of Kind of Loving, we're coming to the 25 double rolls we used to sync them all up.
Richard Marden 44:55
Now that's like he was so it was quite interesting, and I am That's the only reason I mentioned the previous story. But
Alan Legard 45:05
we can
go on to say so you How long were you were with Jack out in Singapore I
Richard Marden 45:09
I was in Singapore for 18 months and was absolutely wonderful because how would I have ever got out that somebody paid me to go and you know Shell but very good people to work for because particularly if you were abroad, yeah, living allowance and such lived the life of Riley really. And Jack was a wonderful man, jack Holmes had a huge
Alan Legard 45:32
I liked jack, very respectful. I worked on one film with him.
Richard Marden 45:36
And he was could always get to the nub of things. And I've remembered the great perfection. Wow. Because if something came in about cutting rooms or labs, I would ask how to you deal with that Dick and show me the letter. And I wasn't but because he was like a dear old father figure.
Alan Legard 45:56
He was good at delegating. You see the great thing about Jack? Yeah, I mean, he really was a producer as well as............................................................
Alan Legard 0:04
Side 4
Richard Marden 0:07
I was just saying that Jack was a marvellous man for whom I have a huge affection and regard. And I found him in Singapore, the sort of person rather like a lovely old father figure. And he would delegate very well. and here if we had anything to do with technicolour labs, or the cutting room needed to be written about and sent back to London, he would say you write leters show to me Dick before we send it off, which I would do and I remember on one occasion, a salutary lesson. He read, whatever, three or four paragraphs and said, What do you mean, here? in paragraph two, I think we'll Jack what I meant to say was that, he said, Well, my dear boy, if that's what you meant to say, why didn't you say it? And I thought, this is a wonderful example of being concise and something to do with writing letters better technicolour but also to do with everything else to do. Yeah, and I thought they, they sound interesting. And so we had I had a very, very delightful 18 months out in Singapore from September 59 through to march 61. Working with Julian Spyro, who made our magnum opus called the Golden Lands, which was a film that covered the parish of Southeast Asia as administered by Shell, which was Singapore, Malaysia, Brunei, Thailand, Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia, Indonesia. And Julian has since become a very close and dear old friend of mine, which is one of those wonderful things that happens if he's does he live in London, and Julian lives in London. He lives in Chelsea, in old church, st he has a very nice lap, but there's a deer. I mean, he's had, he should really be. Do you think we should do? Yeah, whether he would be?
Alan Legard 2:09
Would he enjoy it or
Richard Marden 2:10
not? I don't care. But JUian isn't personal.
Alan Legard 2:12
Great. Is he? Uh, yeah, customer thing is when I remember him when he wouldn't remember me because because I hadn't seen him since I was an assistant at Crown film unit, and he is held in very high regard. And I know the one person who does keep in touch with him apart from yourself is Ken Cameron. I know.
Richard Marden 2:30
Oh, yes. Well, actually, we have a plot to try and see Ken because Ken has now moved down to Somerset, Julian's to Ken hadn't seen each other for a number of years now. But via yourself, I think we heard that you had taken down a recording of a video of instruments, of the orchestra the ballet. And we're in fact, part of the plot is to find out from you where Kenny is
Alan Legard 2:55
got his address,
Richard Marden 2:56
Julian and I intend to go down, we'll let him know. But go down for the day, just say hello. He'd adore that and which would be great. And finally, the last time I saw Ken which was the number of years ago, then must be 15 years of more than that in fact when he had come over to supper with Julian when Julian was living in one of his flats in London. And we were talking about instruments of the orchestra. And the 16 millimetre copy, which Julian had at that time. And I remember saying to Ken, you won't remember this, but you came to Carlton Hill, and we recorded that on one of the few occasions we used our 16 millimetre sound camera, at Carlton Hill. And I remember you coming to Carlton Hill, I was still in the sound department and recording that negative onto 16 mil. Oh, really? Yes, yes.
Alan Legard 3:50
And of course, that's a very, very famous 16 mil. soundtrack. I mean, it's held in enormous view
Richard Marden 3:56
well , I think it was a great soundtrack anyway,
Alan Legard 4:00
that there was a copy of that Ken had still has, which he used to lend to me from time to time, because I used to show the film, and occasions, you know, screenings of friends anddown in the country when I went a lot. And we used to say, well, that's the best 16 mil sound we've ever heard.
Richard Marden 4:18
Well, because I think it was just something that Ken was
Alan Legard 4:21
saying that it's inherent and original,
Richard Marden 4:22
I think it is because if I remember, right, we only had four sound heads at Carlton Hill And I think that there were certain things that were off laid maybe the bridge that we were using what in fact were three, or maybe four sound heads. incorporating into one orchestral
Alan Legard 4:39
is giving it the giving it the maximum
Richard Marden 4:41
You know and I always remember the Ken seem to give it a very full track. So that blurred over into sort of a what you call the overshoot, but the body never went there. And Ken was so important, but I thought I can't really say your you ever shooting? it That's right? Yes. Yes. Yeah,
Alan Legard 5:04
of course it's now on CD too. It is is it I've got it. Yeah, it's wonderful sound. So that Ken sent or rather Barry Coward who is the man who runs the British dancehall Film Archives, among other things he had to put onto CD and he sent the disc down to Ken and Ken was absolutely delighted. Oh,
really? Well, that's
not bad for what is it? 50 years ago, that at 46, it was I guess,
maybe 50 years ago. fabby
ish years ago. Yes.
Richard Marden 5:35
So that was sorry, that digression,
Alan Legard 5:37
but it's nevertheless an interesting one.
Richard Marden 5:39
So that's really how one met up.with Julian Spyro Because you one had a very interesting and happy 18 months there. But you decided that it was time to come home. I they did say what I say a bit longer. But I said no I won't because I want to get back into it. Because your thing is into into.
Alan Legard 6:03
And anyway, you were just about to sort of embark on
Richard Marden 6:07
what I suppose versus Yes, exactly. It's really it isn't. And so I thought well, I
Alan Legard 6:12
mean, it's natural thing that happens you got to make you got to make your career.
Richard Marden 6:17
So one had the happy ability to go home via Thailand, Cambodia and Angkor Wat? Right Ceylon India age is not a very long, couple of four, three or four days here then. And so with a wonderful way of travelling back. So by now it was spring 61. And I went back to film centre to work immediately with Bill Mason on a history of the history motor racing I didn't know you'd been with him. Part Two. And then I did a film. I think it was after that with Joe Mendoza called Network which was for I can't remember who Michael who's producing it Michael. Michael Michael Clark. And then I got involved with being one of the many sound editors on Lawrence of Arabia. Oh did you indeed and so worked with? I think with Wyn Ryder Malcolm Cooke was doing the dialogues. Stan Philips myself.
Alan Legard 7:47
Why was that Wyn Ryder was such a gloomy person I always felt that he was, you know, whenever I sort of saw him as back to him, will be very rarely admittedly, but he always seemed to be very depressed and so on.
Richard Marden 7:58
Well, I think when I was about to say is totally libellous, because I can't stand the man Alright, yeah.
Alan Legard 8:06
Well you're allowed to say that. But I always got the impression that he had some great thing. You know.
Richard Marden 8:13
He had, he said he had a gammy leg but you have a gammy leg
Alan Legard 8:17
mean, it doesn't affect me in that way.
Richard Marden 8:19
He is a miserable thing. And I was recording on off. Well, he, I think Wyn is one of theses complicated people, uh, how if you shout at him, he likes it. If you allow him to dominate you he likes it's a sort of curious masochistic, sad sadomasochistic person. And I would never have him on a film of mine. And I think he probably knows that. We worked on Lawrence of Arabia, which I knew Wyn I've known him before I do work with him. And he had a marvellous crew, Malcolm Cooke, who then has now a very fine editor, but in those days was also sounded an extremely good one. And very good on dialogue. Stan Pholis who was another standards of I would always work with tand knew , um, who is one of those people who is rather laid back rather amusing, but you always know that his work is perfection. And Wyn who I'm sure if you go back to the early days of Lean in things like Great Expectations, which Wyn dubbed and which Wyn I think was very creative, and the early days when sound editors were becoming important, I think was an extremely good one, and is inventive. He has a personality which I find intolerable. I was wondering where it went with
Alan Legard 9:57
the profession, we're gonna have to do the sound editors. They're sort of have set upon in a way because they're not the editors and they they come next and and whether it was?
Richard Marden 10:06
I don't think so because I don't think by temperament thank God is not to be morose maybe I would say that's true I agree. I would agree with that. But I think a lot of other sound edoitors that I've worked with
Alan Legard 10:25
enormous talent and he has held enormous, very high esteem by the profession, he always got these big credits and so on.
Richard Marden 10:31
But the thing is, is he always had a very good crew, and he used to delegate a lot. And I can remember on Lawrence, when David who was cutting a lot of the picture as indeed was Anne David was working up in town and he sent down a cut of the theme where they blow up the train and Lawrence walks along the top of the carriages and there's a Turkish soldier that takes a pot shot at him David never cut with sound he owes any ever cut the action he didn't cut the dialogue at all. He'd let his assistant match that up. However, they did it I never I'm just how
Alan Legard 11:12
did they do that? I mean, it's alright, if you feel sort of action I that I've never had this dialogue going on
Richard Marden 11:16
never understood. Elmo did the same thing. I never understood how they did it, because I think they came, in fact from being silent film editors. Anyway, David sent this down, and to Sheppertonn where we were all working, he was working up in town. And the only thing that he'd done far as the soundtrack was concerned was to put in five I think five shots either three on or two off or two on three off. I can't remember from the Turkish soldier. Wyn said I will,look after that I can deal with that. And then simply cuz he couldn't because you had the train. You had all the rifles. You had the horses that so we all got involved. And I was delegated, reasonably enough to do the rifles and the pistol shots. Yeah. Fine. That's what you're there to do. So I did that. And when we came to do the rough mix, I thought, well, if Mr. Lean, whom I've never met, has deigned to put in five pistol shots. I better put proper pistol because they were cutting copy one. I better put five proper ones where he's laid them because he knows what he is doing which I did. And once we were mixing Wyn said, what are those other pistol shots doing there Dick . You only see two of them? I said, Well, David Lean put them in so i thought you know he but expect them to be there. You've never worked with Lean have you David? I said No, I haven't matter of fact He said well he does expect you to use your imagination as oh take them out. So we took him out. To give Wyn his credit. When Lean told us about having seen the rough mix up in town he said I wonder where the other three pistol shots are
Alan Legard 13:11
Ah lovely
Richard Marden 13:14
so anyway Wyn I didn't like him and one Saturday we were very busy down at Shepperton I was working with a very sweet girl called Paula and we had a caravan because the cutting rooms were full and Wyn had this habit of getting lots of library shots and saying to you would you take out all I just want the whatever's out of this and take the rest of it out and just make up a track of sound which I sent something down which I thought I'd done correctly and sent it back up to him and he's got a room and he has a sweet assistant girl whose name I've forgotten Olive came down said Dick I'm sorry but Wyn it's not me he said you haven't done this properly and gave me this bit of track so I can get I don't often lose my temper but I have got a temper which I quite use for us it really works and I'm furious so I took the bit of film and Olive give me I marched upstairs went in to Wyn's cutting room threw the film at him and said you can take that look after itself. I'm resigning as from Monday midday and David and Sam will know exactly why. And slammed the doors on the cutting room door fell off the hinges great I marched out to the caravan with Wynhobbling after me and I'm sorry put it this way but Paula thought I'll get out of here. But Wyn hobbled into the cutting room I don't come hobbling after me I've said nothing to say to you. I had no intention of resigning of course so but he and I did I don't think I handled it very well. But but we got it sorted out. The only person who could very well be quite
Alan Legard 15:08
impressed by
Richard Marden 15:09
what I think he'd like he'd liked it. What was wrong with Wyn ? Because if you gave in
Alan Legard 15:16
back, yeah, but if you went like that, yes, at the
Richard Marden 15:19
only one I think that could handle Wyn really perfectly, was Stan Philips, because Stan has this very laid back sort of look occasionally puts on a stupid act, and he had the misfortune of having the cutting room next door to Wyn@s Stan would always be absolutely up to date with everything he done, Wyn would always be in and out of the cutting room Stan what are you doing? Well, don't do that do this. And then he'd come into the cutting room and they say, Well, what do we got ready? and Stan would say, Well, I don't know Wyn I mean, you keep coming in here. He'd say to me, dude, I have to stop it. And I don't know. I know where we are. he always knew exactly Wyn would go out, confused. So I made the big I think it inall conscience other than one other director, these, the only two people in my life that I really, really couldnt . Like, I don't care about Wyn because it's all years
Alan Legard 16:18
He had I mean, I suppose to be fair, he had a successful career
Richard Marden 16:21
he has he retired and I think he's doing well I actually had a daughter and she I believe as a person. And I'm just leading off really, but there'll be a lot of people
Alan Legard 16:32
who would possibly enriching it and healing us about this did
Richard Marden 16:36
have this effect. He was cantankerous and contentious. And he was a bully. And Olive for instance, who worked for him, she went down with flu. And that was off for two or three days. And she was well organised and he knew where everything in that cutting room was. And he couldn't help but ring her up at least four times a day and get out of bed, that sort of person. He had one assistant who left and was found wandering in on a beach somewhere. really nervous breakdown. This is not something that I didn't find admirable. I can understand everybody getting a temper I can understand after all that because we all get upset sometimes and so on, but anybody who is Calculatedly unkind, is far as I'm concerned beyond the pale.
Alan Legard 17:35
We haven't had any dubbing editors give us their career have we But maybe we should get in touch with Wyn and ask me to do a piece of history project recently to hear his side of the
Richard Marden 17:46
well I mean, the thing about I've always
Alan Legard 17:49
thought he wouldn't be interested but days because he's been retired some years ago and I don't
Richard Marden 17:52
I mean, he Wyn had a huge experience and I'm not suggesting that Wynwas not good at his job because he was he was That's right, a but. I think and I've always had a sympathy for dubbing editors having been one oneself because you know, these poor people, if you're an editor, you can look at the thing on the movie screen back whatever, we cut it up, they don't like that, I'll change it. If your sound editor poor darlings, they have to go in there with where's the I thought we were having a whatever becomes
Alan Legard 18:26
occupational hazard this business
Richard Marden 18:27
and I but I think most of them, you know, the markable people I never long but I've worked with and would always love to work with because they bring a huge amount to what you do. And come up with ideas and and clever people. Yeah, and I can think a lot. But I do work with that I've
Alan Legard 18:53
found on nowadays that more and more crucial aren't because
Richard Marden 18:56
they are because now you see everybody has to provide an international soundtrack over and above the track that you're putting on your film for the English speaking audience. But every movement, every noise, everything has to be reproduced and put there so that once you put your Japanese or Italian whatever dialogue and you've got a full track,
Alan Legard 19:16
then to wonder whether sometimes it's ever done. Because I mean, I do feel there's a quite a number of modern present day films, the dialogue is
rendered unintelligible by too many effects. And well, I think the diction isn't as bad anyway. And I have a theory to that sound recordists are not quite as you know, perhaps, because of the pressures that they're under. They aren't always able to get the perfect dialogue intelligibility that they used to in the films of the past.
Richard Marden 19:47
I think there's a lot
Alan Legard 19:49
that and the fact that they have this massive sound, you know, whereas you look back on the film's pre war, you know, very simple dubbing, dubbed tracks,
Richard Marden 19:57
but you see, I don't think now that would be accepted. Because I think now you have stereo sound anyway. Yeah. You also have a generation of people now that go around with Walkmans on their heads, and they expect just they expect a certain percentage of them expect brilliant special effects. They also expect that sound raters,
Alan Legard 20:20
the filmmakers do, but does the audience the
Richard Marden 20:23
audience I think does just because, yeah, one of the difficulties and I, I take your point, john, and obviously open to argument, because there is so much noise certainly things often played too loud, I think, which doesn't help in cinemas. Secondly, in order to accommodate as much of the other noise, music and effects, your dialogue sometimes is pitched and cooked to such an extent, right that I think unless you're getting into cinema with perfect reproduction, you're losing. And I could think of a very sweet by he's retired sound mixer at Pinewood Ken Barker, who was very good a but Ken was doing the dialogue pre mixes so on and you say can you it's the sound side to a how is it I was did you go back and forth back and forth? We're not careful when we're speaking the sound like a telephone. Now Yeah. I'm not knocking Ken on this. Please don't think I'm doing that but and I'm not qualified. Because I have to comment on this other than what I hear because I don't know enough about how the component parts fit in . But it does seem to be occasionally that we'll get to sort of what I call the squeaky clean dialogue which
Alan Legard 21:59
sounds terribly funny anyway,
Speaker 2 22:01
but everything we say about sound on the radio everywhere it sound is dreadful. But a lot has to do with the training of actors that that are delivered to sit down with a wall I mean, when we only had an optical track of what hurt it was perfect. Good here we were even though you had background noise and everything else No, that's true. Now you've got a lovely clean track no background noise signal to noise ratio about centre add read can't hear and yet it's indistinct you know that they don't deliver at the same level they trail away and they speak out and then
Richard Marden 22:43
well I think though I take your point and I think this is all part of the reason Americans
Speaker 2 22:49
started after the dramatic method.
Richard Marden 22:53
Yes. But you see, I think also then people thought with them
change of technique and technical possibilities in deal copable with these things and of course they're not but they are and they aren't and I think what you're really needing is, is to be able to when you go into a dubbing theatre where you do hear everything perfect everything's wonderful is on you can't recommend that for who's going to be like at the local Odeon unfortunately I'm
Speaker 2 23:27
not sure devices around to get over this problem like compressors and things but people don't like us you discovered we have a limiter on here
Alan Legard 23:37
no
Speaker 1 23:38
should be using it in your case
Richard Marden 23:41
cuz I'm liable to blow all over the place gets excited but
Speaker 2 23:49
I'm using these devices I like to keep it as natural as it can.
Richard Marden 23:53
I mean it is it's one of those I've ever had I find it marvellous and wherever one wears but purely because you hear it in the in the dubbing theatre that when all his tracks you know the talent expertise hard work that's gone into and its gone stereo for then you're in the right place. Of course it's wonderful. The problem is a not everybody's hearing as I say minus i mean i this year I'm sure he's down on that. Yeah. And so you know, we'll go into into into the cinema Where you? What are we running this week? I'll see. Yeah, and I don't like they don't necessarily project it as well. What sometimes it's far too loud It's unintelligible because it can't
Alan Legard 24:57
accommodate lay like the Coronet Notting Hill gate where you is an old theatre, you know, the sound is probably played at the correct level, but because of the nature of the premises, you know, it's a booms around Yes. And, and you really cannot take in everything. Whereas if that was BAFTA was great tonight, because we got very pretty good sound. We're very lucky to be able to see films.
related stories is very lucky
Speaker 2 25:21
the original square we had because we run out of comedy. And you know, if you would call it comedy, you never know when the laughter come out. But what we had there were microphones in the theatre, which actually played back the audience sell into projects
Richard Marden 25:37
overseas could tell what sound Oh, that was good.
Speaker 2 25:42
comedy. And you knew exactly where the
Richard Marden 25:45
last where you could put it up a bit.
Unknown Speaker 25:47
You're not supposed to do that, though, but
Richard Marden 25:50
it's wonderful that you could do that because at least you could get the next incoming line after the gag. you know where
Speaker 2 25:59
cute cheater pyjama river quiet way we're dealing with, with levels. We were having to via chat all the time. But I didn't tell him that during the interview, but
Richard Marden 26:15
fascinating actually. I mean, me really that when, of course, there are worth I think that connection between the people who made the film and the people who projected the film, there was a show going right the way through as it were, and now with automated stuff and cake stands and so on some guy trying to run four fallors? looking at on TV, you can't do it. And in that way, we lose out I think actually, you know, but But anyway, where where are we we've got all this is about Wyn Ryder when so that all finished and then I got involved with British Home Entertainment about a company formed by John Brabourne Tony Howlock Allen Richard Goodwin and Olivier and various peope was right. And they did some films and Puffin, Asquith was involved. We did some ballet films evening with the Royal Ballet which we shot Jim Clark, cut the first one which was the last act of sleeping princess if I remember rightly. Then he went off to do something else that I got involved with. Chopin Les Sylphide the got three or four ballet movies, which we shot at Covent Garden, multiple camera things on Sundays, and the Puffin directed them in the sense that he set up the camera position, perhaps five, only three of which were usually any good, but you never knew you might have needed the other two. And so that began I was now cutting, cutting cutting proer as it were which was fun. For I'd already once worked for John Braybourne when I was sound editor one sound editor with Malcolm Cooke on Harry Black and the Tiger, which way back in the 50s sevenish. I think it was 58. And I'm digressing going backward. First up, do you remember that? JOHN Brabourne's first picture as producer, he'd worked I think in production with Herbert Wilcox and so on before that, and this is his first picture with a Reggie Beck cut is Richard Goodwin was location director I think in India, Stewart Granger was the star and it was about a tiger and he was a white hunter and so on and I was looking after the sound effects and Malcolm was looking after dialogue. I'm sorry, back there. It's funny, I think quite funny stories. One is Reggie Beck who was a great editor, wonderful editor. And tiresome but wonderful. Great man. That fine I think thedoyen British editors until he died quite rightly. And Reggie came into the theatre when you were shooting sound effects. I can remember this. We were shooting barefooted Indian on mud, mud and dear Reggie would come in for 10 minutes now getting on doesn't sound terribly oriental that footsteps to me they can go away again. So anyway, I stopped talking because I have a great respect for him. I loved him and been bad love him, I liked him very much And when we came to mix the film, which we did at the Gate studios, at Elstree were the Maurice Maurice chief mixer Maurice Askew what a wonderful mixer it was in the days when you had magnetic but you didn't have rock and roll and have any of those things. So take was a take. And sometimes this could be terribly exciting, because you know, where you're going to get to the end of what it all gonna be wonderful. And he was a very musical man, and he was a fine sound mixer. He was also a gentle man. And he was a Methodist lay preacher, I think in some, so nobody knows he never wanted anybody to raise their voices in a but always did beautifully
Alan Legard 30:57
with a calming influence in an overcoat
Richard Marden 30:59
And he had his sort of half moon spectacle, he was a very sweet man, and he was a clever mixer. And you could be excited if there was maybe not a terribly complicated stereo?of noises. But a dialogue scene was underscored with music and you knew that Maurice would play this. And not in the obvious way but but just somehow in trance the whole thing. And so that was exciting. Anyway, we had this. tie that black back the tiger, and in the film, there was a tiger beat. In other words, everybody was going out to get this man eating tiger. So there were lots of elephants and people and dear Reggie as I say saved, gone from us. But who was a lovely and clever man, but occasionally they know. annoying. I think you've got to look at this like come Ravel's Bolero. You bet. It's got to get. So Fine, Reggie, except your first shot is 50 elephants in a row and old ma's hits? and all the rest of the elephant belting That didn't quite work out that way. Anyway, we did a premix which took about two days and sequences, probably only about five minutes. But I think we had something like 60 tracks on it. And there had to be premixed and and Reggie. Well, there was a I think we need another hoopoe, bird there or another elephant that was fine that was your job if he feels that you don't do that with all happening. And eventually we'll get to these eight pre mixed tracks, which are going to have to be put together. Now john Brabourne, who father in law is Earl Mountbatten was dead. And Mountbatten has always been interested in technology, technical things, the day that we were going to put all this together. Mountbatten came down to see what happens in a dubbing theatre So we start this putting up these eight pre mixes and Maurice has got four and seven I can't remember the other mixer was got four and naturally it's a cacophony because you can't know but have you got the eyes? You got that now I've got this you've got to rehearse it about 20 times before you can begin to discover where you are with it. And Mountbatten was there John was there Reggie was there and I was able there and it sounds
Terrible.
And to my fury. Reggie said, to John, I don't think it's working. We'll have to use the music. And I lost my temper. Great. I forgotten that anybody was there. Except Reggie I suppose. And snaps all the debris chops off to death and often left at the table and desk and said to Reggie you've done nothing but carp carp carp the moment we started mixing that I'm fed up with it. and marched out misintepreted the way the door. oened I thought to put it the dead. You should have pulled that I screwed up the exit. Who got out. That's all right. Now you've made a fool of yourself. You've got to go back again. Which I did of course, and it'll carry carried on. Yes, as is normal. And somebody said to me later on everybody was perfectly sweet about it. And he said to me I didn't want to embarrass has forgotten about Mountbatten was there in everything. I said once I've ever say anything. It said for John Brabourne . Sweet man, it looks better than bad. Well Richard's not as happy today as he was on Monday.
Alan Legard 35:06
I think Mountbatten would have been delighted.
Richard Marden 35:08
something to talk about. So anyway, I'm sorry, I wrote, I went back, I
went back on all that. So anyway, we've now gone forward, it's doing Ballet things and things with John Brabourne and Tony Havelock Allen We also did, which was the show entertainment who were experimenting at that time with pay television. And they had, but never couldn't work because they only had such a small concession. They had somewhere I think, just across the river and somewhere up in Manchester, but you could never make the money out. But it proved that it could actually work. And one of the things we did was a version of the soldier's tale with Bobby Helpmann as the devil and a very good actor, as the soldier. And Michael Burkett directed it. And it was again made for British entertainment. And so I get was in my early days of editing popular as it were and, of course it Stravinsky score. And that's what you contracted to do. And we've found that we hadn't got quite enough material for one of a one of the marches, I think it was, but we couldn't very well cut it without asking the maestro's permission. So I think Michael, either telegraph texts or telephone them. He eventually lived in Los Angeles, and explained our problem, and said that if we could just cut four bars up to whatever particular bit it was, we have enough film to make it work and the maestro agreed that as I say, it was in my early days of being an editor. And when the soldiers seated by the river playing the violin, and devil is creeping up on him that full of Bobby Hellman, that was supposed to be lots of cutaways, on the river ducks and geese, things getting around and thought of both of which we hadn't yet got because they were supposed to come from library. And we all know you can never quite find the shot you want. So I put what I say I was very naive, naive, nervous, I suppose. At this stage. I got soldier by the bank? playing the violin by the verb of love when they see misting Bobby Helpman's scene the missing soldiers, the millieu but it all looked awful. But if you had to accommodate the music, you know, I was fussing about this to myself and Tony Haverlock Allen, who I think is a very great man said to me, Richard dear boy I believe your worried about this thing on the riverbank. I said no no no no it, why don't you show it to me I think it's not ready to be seen Tony . Because I think I've got to get some lots of stuff. And it's Well, I mean, why don't you show it to me? I think what I did is I think I ought to see it. So I was great. trepidation took it into the theatre in Dean street Royalty house. I think it was sort of ghastly three and a half minutes the soldier Bobby, but scene missing little gold deal, the big thing I wish I had the lights went up and turned to me and said, I don't know what you're worried about. Because for a start, I don't think that soldier could have ever played the violin. And even if he could, he wouldn't be able to play Stravinsky. And I thought what you've done is just taken all the heat out of this. Once you've did it and get on with the rest of it. Stop fussing. Yeah, when you got the live image it will all work. I thought what a lovely man, what a kind person. producers who and another occasion when we did while we were looking at a lot of rushes to the ballet, one of the ballet films. Waltz God knows it's done. It's great ballrooms theValse. La Valse And the only people that would and lots of angles and Tony pattern and John Oliver's miles of it the Havererlock. says . Now Richard
I think what you should just bear in mind as it regard a lot of them gay young ladies and handsome young men dancing and having a lovely time. On second thoughts a lot of gay young men have felt a nice dry
humour. I've been very fond of him since then. And then after having done these things, I then did another film with Bill Mason, we did a film history of the motorcar Shell which was fascinating because it nice contrast for the rest of it to that it was Bill who done all the work, I mean, archival film, found all the stuff but we had great fun putting it together. And then we did one other film together about for United Steel. About the replacement of old open hearth furnaces with electric arc furnaces were Bill had cut most most of it and then we needed some wide shots of it rather than some of the electric arc furnaces and Bill having an ulcer wasn't able to shoot them and I was dedicated to go up there shoot them and we had a very nice but production manager Pat Morton.
Alan Legard 41:40
Remember Pat very well. Yeah. Sweet. Nice,
Richard Marden 41:42
man. Yeah, I would have with I can't have a very nice camera man had a rather Spanish sounding name. But it will come to me. And we went up there and we will have lots of brutes because it was a big place to light . So we are going to shoot one side of it for about two days didn't have a change. I mean
Alan Legard 42:04
more speakers.
Richard Marden 42:05
It was it was simple.
About what Ralph Dibeatty
that'd be nice, man. Yeah. And we had I'd be a dear I'm not the most experienced us to that date We could shoot but I mean, I'm not used to being on location with lots of sparks and people around then dear old Pat Bolton's wonderful Yeah, and so we shot got up there Monday we shot Monday, or whatever we did tuesday wednesday and and Pat said now they've got to change over to shoot on the other side. And the lads like to know when you can when you think you'll be through this side so they can start changing over item I should be posting by midday and it's a bit of a lag of the Wednesday afternoon, you know, to change over to ready for Thursday. And I already noticed that I happeed to do They were their cranes and the thing that they dubbed sparks was an arrangement going with the crane of people so you know they crane drivers and pick up the lights and move them over the other side. You've seen a couple go over here and because we weren't using it, Pat said to me that exactly what's gonna happen. He said we'll finish Blumstein and he said the boys will move everything else every thing over the other side says boy, he said they hadn't had the bubble. I'd be very good. And he said they'll have the whole lot moved over and in position by four o'clock this afternoon. But he said they won't come back to the hotel until about 830 tonight while we're having supper and they'll come and tell you that they've just managed to get it there and he said that they will then sit down have scampi so I thought well you are an old cynic that's exactly what happened. And he said that he said the perks and had no bubble they have a right to it and there's a debate they will have a nice bunch of people on chief spark came up about 25 to Dick we just about done it will be ready for you in the morning. I did Thank you very much. I'm very grateful. And you know, and so on and we all play this game and it all worked and I don't think it put the budget up any more than it was we know they expected it to be and the whole thing so that was that little bit of nonsense.
Unknown Speaker 44:34
Exactly what
Richard Marden 44:36
I you know, this again was all great fun and marvellous and then then I got involved also with Ann Todd and Ian Dalrymple because again while I was at BHE Ann Todd had been to Nepal to make a film, a little travelogue and BHE were interested and Ian Dalrymple was sort of producing it. And she had shot it on techni scope under the two sprocket holes and . It was quite an interesting film. She'd fallen out with the man that had written it for her. She was very just very nice lady actually very positive or positive, wrong word. Quite bossy, but then remarkable that she'd done what she'd done. I mean, you know, she'd gone out there she shot all this material we started was I had a very nice assistant then called Alma Godfrey.
Alan Legard 45:44
She was my assistant and the cutting room
Richard Marden 45:45
really was seasoned. She was, we did quite a lot of films together. When I was at BHE we do ballet films together. We didn't help film about the world College of Music. College of Music is Michael Deard and she was with us........................................
Richard Marden 0:02
Based on the poll, which Ian Dalrymple produces rate to be ag. It was, I had this lovely assistant Alma, who was working with me. And, and we've got the film together and sort of rather fell out with a writer for whatever reason, I don't know. And we ended up home writing the commentary together and Anne was a lovely person who, but could drive you mad because she'd come into the category. And instead of going through things in any orderly fashion, you'd find yourself darting about everything all over the place. And at the end of the day, certainly in the screen room, where you could just give a shout, please Get rid of your frustration. Anyway, she The film was taken by British Home Entertainment. She fell out with Dal for whatever reason, I think Dal discovered the dreaded was impossible to get to take any advice at all. And, but we finished the film and it was fine. I can't remember what it what the dialogue because I could never quote. But we had a theme by the burning gaps somewhere, presumably, in Banal what we were doing down there, I'm not sure. Maybe they did it in Nepal as well. But there was this line of commentary, which nobody could think of what to say, Alm was marvellous. And I can't quote it, because she invented about four lines. which sounded wonderful. Absolutely nothing.
Alan Legard 1:47
I love it. Yes.
Richard Marden 1:49
We all which I think
Alan Legard 1:51
atmospheric commentary, commentary.
Richard Marden 1:53
Yeah, which was so funny, and clever, because certainly Alm and I realised this, I don't know, and I not trying to be anything. Know how I have QAnne might have known as well. But whatever it was, it was so funny and so clever, that it went in perfectly at all about something coming from here and meeting up with something in the sky and therefore transcending into something else. And it meant absolutely nothing at all. But when the village
Alan Legard 2:23
when it started in, it became
Richard Marden 2:24
okay when major british quake. And so did that. Yeah, then I worked again with Julian Spyro. And we did a film on the stock exchange for Ian Dalrymple which was great fun,
Alan Legard 2:39
because he was Wessex when he was he was Wessex.
Richard Marden 2:42
And he had done various feature films and then gone back into
Alan Legard 2:46
and he did Humphrey Jennings did his last film was with Wessex
Richard Marden 2:52
Wessex And he and Ian was very fond of Ian. And I thought he was another remarkable man who was a quiet rather shy man, but but very, very clever. And a very clever editor from who were alone
Alan Legard 3:08
he he edited a lot of editing Yes. And he and he was a very clever writer.
Richard Marden 3:12
And so that was interesting. And I enjoyed that. And it was then on that, that that point that British Home Entertainment decided to make. I suppose what you call a big screen television version of Olivier's Othello
gone? Yes.
God, that was awful. I managed to edit it.
John Legard 3:34
Are you? Sorry? Yes, in time? I mean, I think it's beautiful, I'm sure. But then it just didn't work. Did it? Because I mean, it was that was a wonderful stage production. But once you started going in close up.
Richard Marden 3:47
Well, the problem was it designed for the cinema photograph of the stage production , what it really was, except that it was slightly reshaped But it obviously has to be. But it was again, a very, from my point of view. Important stepping stone
Alan Legard 4:05
Oh, yeah, that's right.
And
you'll probably save you some peace. I mean, I don't
Richard Marden 4:13
see any way to see it was on 70. Did you Where did you see
Alan Legard 4:16
I will decide at what are the equivalent of BAFTA was in those days, I think it was a special screening. I saw it at the big screen.
Richard Marden 4:23
We blew it up to 70. mil and I'll give you that. I can't, it's not for me to comment about
Alan Legard 4:30
remember these enormous, hideous close ups and then went on and on and on. But it didn't work as a movie.
Richard Marden 4:36
I mean, it's it was no it wasn't
Alan Legard 4:40
acceptable on television.
Richard Marden 4:41
Well, it isn't because the only reason I say this and said him snappishly is because it was on television . And because it was shortened scope. And the size Yes. And everything goes all the wrong dimension. All the cuts go wrong yeah.
Alan Legard 4:56
So that was the only But anyway, you edited that. So
Richard Marden 4:59
that was that I
Alan Legard 5:00
Your first complete feature write about it. Well,
Richard Marden 5:02
that was my first complete feature piece of editing. That was in 1965. And then I went to do some commercials. All right with illustra Robin Robin Tasker who have been my assistant well without systems, you'll get an all in employment. He founded illustra with Doug Kentish Barry Palin, and Duggie Hickock . Oh, yes. I went to work for them about I suppose it was the beginning. I can't remember somewhere around about January or February 66. I'd never done any commercial before Robin and Duggi e everybody had they'd told me how to
Alan Legard 5:52
how to cope. And you need to ensure I discovered that was quite a different
Richard Marden 5:56
ballgame. It is a different ballgame. I found it interesting. I would did it for about, I suppose five or six months.
Alan Legard 6:05
It's quite a long time.
Richard Marden 6:07
And then I suppose as major thing happened, which was I had a call from France. Stanley Donen was making Two for the Road. And they had a French lovely French editor on it Madeline Gug who was putting it together while they were shooting in France, but he wanted to take it . He was going to be back to England cuz he always finished and felt in Britain. And he wanted me as English editor and the person I think that he would normally have had wasn't available. And a friend of mine, who was associate producer on it, Jimmy Ware I think suggested me and I was asked to go out to France to go out to Paris one weekend to the location and meet up with Stanley, which I did. And Stanley was shooting the scene with Albie and Audrey when they're in the motorcar stopping and starting and having that argument, which is they near the end of the film. And Chris Challis was lighting it and so on. And Stan is a very shy person, he doesn't say a lot. And I was introduced to him and and I just , but I've actually also quite a shy person, believe it or not. And I just had the feeling. Just didn't say anything. I would just briefly ask you to something. That's it. And all he said to me, what have I done? I said, Well, I really just done Othello , and some commercials and stuff. And I wrote an awful lot of Phil Richard. Have you ever had a lot of film? And I said, Well, yes. Perhaps because we have actually on television because we had three cameras and so on Yeah, I have an awful lot of film. So I thought well I There we are. And when there is anything else and I said to Jimmy, I don't really see this lovely to come out to Paris for the weekend and so on. Is it that don't worry Dick you will find it will all workout. I thought I didn't really see this. Just wait. About a week later I got a call saying when I when could I start. And as I went out to Paris this lovely lady Madeline Gug who was a French editor. And she had cut a quite a bit of it. Stanley had a lot of rushes, which he hadn't seen could have been too tired into shooting and it was all mounted up and so on. And that's why he really wanted to bring somebody else on reasonably quickly I think. And Madeline Gug had another had her assistant another Madeline, who were that are both lovely people. And we had this marvellous thing that we left to ourselves, but little studios at St Maurice?because they were always shooting on location around Paris and so on. And we will do will show looking at the rushes for teach other and Madeline would show me what she'd cut that we keep up to date. And my French is not good. We went into St maurice? a lovely story here and I we were in cinema scope been widescreen format. And I thought that I can tell the what to do to rearrange the screen. And I've now of course forgotten it but checked up something with Madeline About what it was proudly went back to the theatre back to the theatre picked up that intercom, spoke and said what I thought I should have been said, where upon there was a huge shriek of laughter from the projection box the two of Madeline were running around or rolling around on the floor and I thought wht have I done now and instead of asking him to avant de electrque s il vous plait I had asked him to produce an erection
Alan Legard 10:41
confusions of language
Richard Marden 10:43
anyway we got on like a house on fire and then once one was there Stanley beside you that he would come in on Sundays we'd run rushes so make choices and so forth. Which he did and we got along very well all of us but I was chipping away and Madeline chipping away and I finished shooting and then it was discovered that Albie did a huge amount of post syncing the picture huge amount basicallt theyhall post synced it Albies contract with running out at all have to be done with a certain period of time. And so loops had to be prepared and we're going to shoot that go back to London and so on We would shoot Albies loops. Friday morning, afternoon, evening, Saturday morning, afternoon, evening and Sunday afternoon. morning, afternoon evening. in about three weeks time, Stanley having holiday and Madeline said look I'll make up these loops because you know you've got other things to be getting on with. But I know the picture. I'm not going to be busy on she basically made up on the loops which she did very well. And then of course it was at some would Stanley had re shot a scene after we made up the original loops, he re shot that scene in the car between Audrey and Albie near the end. So there had to be looped. And there were now two sets of loops.
And
we came back to London. We were looping Albie Friday morning, Friday afternoon Friday evening, Saturday, Saturday, I am finished Sunday morning with this set of this last scene. And I remember Stanley saying to me. I hope these are Albie's retakes. Richard remember thinking I know they are because the dupe thing I hadn't made them up again. Now my responsibility that we hadn't got Zander on yet. Can we loop them? I went back to the cutting room and discovered to my terrible horror, but they weren't. And the next day we were running the first cut of the film. So for her at Stanley's theatrec he had a private Theatre in Hyde Park gardens. And I thought, well, this is, you know, this is a disaster. What I did know, but I wasn't supposed to know for of course we were looping to a first cut and things would change, and Albie would undoubtedly have to come back to do certain things over because, you know, we would change takes , but we could get the bulk of it done . Stanley said could I send around a couple of wreels for the projectionist to just check changeovers? Because we were running after lunch 230 or something? And I said yes I can send some down to you . See you that way. What do you want
to see it and Stanley you know, you said to me yesterday, are these Albies retakes? And I said yes. I said I'm very sorry to have to tell you that they weren't and I'm very worried about it.
So you should be worried about Richard it's a catastrophe What time are we running the movie session was half past two so that without so we ran the film was all far too long you know, get it on this thing do sets you don't know that doesn't matter saw it all and he had also then cutting rooms around the corner in Carlton square and said I'll come round the cutting room tomorrow morning Richard half past 9 10 we can start going through the picture on a movieola and I said we don't come around that time Stanley we won't be quite ready for you could still got some stuff coming back through customs I said call me when we're ready. Nothing was said about this disaster looping. So anyway, but he came around whatever time it was, and we started going through the picture. Looking making notes and so on. And he said to me, Richard, I seem to see the odd angle here that I do not recollect, we looped with Albie I said well,Stanley it's just possible, but something could have slipped by. And he said, Well, when we get him back, we'll do them. And he said, when we get him back, we'll do retake won't we, Richard? I said yes. And he'd never ever mentioned it again. And I've now done what is it five pictures with him in the eye. I very fond of him. I he's a shy man strange man Okay, he can be impossible sometimes. But the fortunate thing about that incident was that one had told him what had happened. Yes. Because I realised with him other things, not not nothing to do with me, but with other people. If you tell him total cockup , yeah. Well, what do we do? We can get out of it. If you don't tell him that, and then he did a
Alan Legard 16:16
professional rather and made so many pictures over the years. He knows the sort of things that can
Richard Marden 16:21
make allowances and so he can get on with it. And I've so I've appreciated that. Yeah, right. And so we did we finished that. And did that. Wait,
Alan Legard 16:30
what year are we at now?
Richard Marden 16:32
We're now in level 6667. Yeah, when?
Alan Legard 16:36
When did you get to john Schlessinger again?
Richard Marden 16:39
Well, that what happened was after after Two of the road we did Bedazzled, which was Peter Cook and Dudley Moore from there I did a film with Peter Ustinov and Maggie Smith called Hot Millions, which is one of my favourite comedies. After Hot Millions I worked with Stanley again to do Staircase in Paris, which was about two gay barbers. And then after that, I came back to do Anne of 1000 days with Hal Wallis
Alan Legard 17:09
you did that Anne of 1000 days.
Richard Marden 17:10
Yeah. Then it was then after
Alan Legard 17:14
Wood was directed that was no Charles Jarret . Sam Wood produce it. And do you know wh Hal Wallace Oh, sorry. Yeah, I always mix those two up, hal Wallace was the producer Sam,Wood
Richard Marden 17:24
who was the director,
Alan Legard 17:24
and Charles Jarret
Richard Marden 17:28
Charles Jarret directed. And it was after Anne John rang me up and said, I thought it was a cheaper music dear called Sunday bloody Sunday so that happened. I would say one works on that after that,
Alan Legard 17:45
but that must have been quite an interesting one to work on. Well, I mean, they all work, but I mean, I working with Schlesinger mostly
nice. That's how it should be. I think
Richard Marden 18:29
Yes well I know John and so was away whatb one did did then is that he likes to go to the pictures. So what you do is you he goes away as soon as it's finished, he went off to India I won't have holiday. I moved in about three weeks, months or two months, five weeks. You put music on it. You mix it? Yeah. Do that. dub me do a few rough mix Yeah. And so he can come back and go to the pictures. And then come into the cutting room
Alan Legard 19:01
Completely afraid. Yeah. Also having nothing close to that or the individual shot.
Richard Marden 19:05
And so that's goes on like that. And so we did that. And that'll work. It was a fun picture to do. And that was a great.
Alan Legard 19:14
I mean, that was a turning point, I suppose.
Richard Marden 19:16
When it was the time, the first time that you had the gay situation was able to be presented without there being a huge kerfuffle. Yeah. And so that worked. Well. Peter Finch, I think was wonderful. I think Glenda was extremely. And Murray , I think was good. He's not an actor, but I thought he did very well. And so we had a lot of fun on as we enjoyed it. After that, did you shoot that that was shot? partly on location , partly at Bray. All right. That's
Alan Legard 19:51
another studio we have
Richard Marden 19:54
one little bit. St. John's Wood studios one scene the cafe royal where the Bar Mitzmah scene was shot. The synagogue in which but the other part of the Bar Mitzvah in the synagogue was shot at a synagogue in St. John's Wood somewhere if I remember rightly. It was somewhere that could I know it was one of those particular things with a particular one is funny things. We all would have a little capel to where we went in and out to deal with the catering department bacon sandwiches and sausages.
Alan Legard 20:40
Lovely, lovely.
Richard Marden 20:42
JOHN eating bacon sandwiches and sausage I love it. And so
Alan Legard 20:46
difficult lesson typically in Congress movie making.
Richard Marden 20:50
So that was a great that's a great fun movie to do. Yeah.and Peter Finch took it over the part of the doctor from a very good actor of name I forget. Forget about who said they started shooting with but
Alan Legard 21:07
really, he took over to the PC to be fitted are suited to the bar
Richard Marden 21:13
and he was wonderful. And then we'd finished that by then I had Mary Castle with me as my assistant. Who was
Alan Legard 21:26
Mary castle joined us for a bit British Transport films working with when Dickey Best was with us.
Richard Marden 21:32
Well Mary Castle I'm very fond of Mary welsh lady a member of the Communist Party, but don't confuse me might have converted enough still, to me, didn't seem
Alan Legard 21:42
to me particularly communist when I when I knew her,
Richard Marden 21:44
shewas very volatile. And Mary and I would have one really good row. per film because she would be capable, you can tell. And she knows I'm saying this isn't I'm saying she knows, I know, we've always talked about you could tell with Mary when something was bubbling up. And you think I'm not going to be taken this time because it always happened before I always fall for it, I'm not going to. And she would always find the one thing to say she gets absolutely bad. So we'd have a terrible row, which would last about a day.
Or they would all
she's now 80 she's 81 this year, I think we've talked to each other I ring up two times a year. But I'm very, very fond of her because she was one of the finest assistants I ever had. And she was an assistant to me when I was at the very beginning stages of my waht I call my feature editing. And she was very supportive. And she was very helpful to me. And I find that this is very important because you do need this.
Alan Legard 22:53
Absolutely. When you've got the pressures on her hand,
Richard Marden 22:55
you know, she was great and I will never and I she trained up the person who became I say, my next first assistant Nigel Bates who is working for television down television South i think but he's I'm happy to see has been cutting some films. And he was another very fine assistant.that I had These people want to be grateful to because they do help you a hell of a lot. And I always put something together and show it to my assistants because I want to know I mean I like to second I like to be working I like to know what they think
Alan Legard 23:37
an opinion and ever, particularly from somebody who's experienced
Richard Marden 23:41
and so you know that it's always been very important to me Well, I think it's I thought how could expect people to be interested in what's going on right? Yeah. And Duggie Myers taught that to me because when I went to work on murder at the windmill all those years ago as a second assistant covered in numbering ink Doug he said you see everything I cut Dick which I thought was wonderful because there were a lot of editors in those days who didn't do that. They were a bit sort of up there
Alan Legard 24:09
could could happen could be partly due to lack of confidence. I would have thought that anybody who knows what he's doing will be delighted to have somebody look at it
Richard Marden 24:18
what is just something that I think I mean don't always agree with what they say but sometimes you think and then you go with yourself and say . They've actually got a good point this is
Alan Legard 24:31
one of the problems I understand with working on digital because the editor the assistant doesn't really have so much say doesn't because it because the assistant isn't actually isn't there all the timeon the spot. I mean
Richard Marden 24:45
I think you'll need Bernard was talking about this, really,
Alan Legard 24:48
he's saying it is it is a bit of a problem from the point of view assistant learning the craft and also presumably from the editor, being able to
Richard Marden 24:56
I think it's very important that you should have this because I Think, you know if you've worked on something which you think there's been a problem in some area and your home in on that. And you think you've squeezed it and made it work and you've forgotten sometimes the things around it. And also we've forgotten that, in fact, your wish, willing it to work, where somebody has an audience. What happens there then
Alan Legard 25:21
finally, to represent the audience, you know, I
Richard Marden 25:23
think that is very important. Yeah. And fortunately, the people that I've worked for, as an assistant were always people seem to be open to allowing you to see things and make a comment if you wish to. So that always on So where were we we're through our Sunday, Bloody Sunday. Then I went off to to Mary Queen of Scots
Alan Legard 25:53
Oh, is that a sequel to the previous?
Richard Marden 25:56
Well, that was the next Hal Wallace picture Yeah. So that wasMary Queen Charlie Jarret directed that Vanessa played Mary and was that we were and then after that, I went to got involved with a Franco Belgium co production called Malpertuis , which was directed by a Belgian director called Harry Kummel And it
Alan Legard 26:25
was not many Belgian directors around I think,
Richard Marden 26:28
no thank god KU double MEL If I remember rightly rightly in the UK. And I got the job because it was a film that was being made in English, which was the Franco Belgium co production, with Orson Welles playing a small part. Lovely act of a good actress who's dyslexic Susan Hampshire, Susan Hampshire and various French artists, Michelle Bouquet and a young French or Belgian actor with a handsome young man not a good actor. And United Artists were interested in possibly picking it up but they said if we're going to pick it up, we've got to have an English editor. And because I suppose of Sunday Bloody Sunday, which would be a UA picture one was ? Slightly in the running? Yeah, that came my way. It was out I hadn't told you what to do have
Alan Legard 27:39
an agent
word of mouth
Richard Marden 27:42
word of mouth tripping over all sorts And what I hadn't realised was that they had been shooting for about five weeks that Harry Kummel had made two other movies. Les Vers Rouge another one both quite interesting pictures where they Vere Rouge with a sort of lesbian Dracula sort of story. Monsieur Hawarden with a Belgium something both quite interesting how Harry had cut those pictures Harry didn't want an editor and they were shooting it a very good English camera man whose name I know and I've forgotten very good man indeed. Anyways, we'll come to a shot on Geva t colour laboratories film labs in Brussels Belgium could not produce do a cinema process it
Alan Legard 28:55
all right.
Richard Marden 28:56
So Geva said they will process it themselves and print everyting because they couldn't do select takes. So one ended up with everything printed, so they've been shooting for four weeks. They have not only engineering Harry had not allowed. There wasn't a very nice Denise Linda Vogel assistant to became our system sweet woman. She had not been allowed to do anything to it. put in sync to anything. I have found myself in Brussels in a room without a moviola or without anything at all, now have to get that organised, which I did. And then Denise came along, and we had a continuity lady who was Belgium, who was hopeless, I mean, she'd have a sheet of paper which lay the 120 days the the 156 shot of , not where it went. But whatever. Anyway, that was really helpful that was, so we got eventually sort of sorted out a bit. That the the Belgian producer called Pierre Levy. A French producer, his wife, Paul, and Rita caveats no Paul and Rita that was somebody else, Paul and Rita whatever they were. And so we started putting it together. And we were working six days a week, and so had Sunday off. And after about three weeks, I suppose I certainly couldn't get anything together for 10 days. But I had something together, and I discovered that Harry had been in on Sunday and shown something on the moviola, which I hadn't Seen, to the actor. I was very angry about this. I said, Harry , how dare you do that I said, there'll be a lock put on the cutting room l from now on. And I will not have this. Because you have no right whatsoever things. Ask me about it. But you'd have no right as I said,we got off to a slightly bad foot But so he took the point, I also put this point to the producers as well. And so we struggling he could
Alan Legard 31:18
have let you know, and he wouldn't have been a bit
Richard Marden 31:20
of know exactly what to do. He was he was he didn't want an editor is the truth.
Alan Legard 31:26
No, no, he could have still run it on his own will provide you to tell
Richard Marden 31:29
you exactly. So anyway, we struggled on with all this. The first we got a very long first cut which we ran in Brussels, and you couldn't even run it with change overs little single projector which was a nightmare. Because we're going to talk about everything, we couldn't just see the things that we moved. Fortunately, the whole thing to Paris to finish it. by which time I had got, working with me, a very nice French editor who had with a friend of the French producers, Paul kayak, who was a good French editor. And he had agreed to be sound editor on the film, which was a tremendous help. Because he had he was also very supportive to me, which was nice to have somebody around that one could could be getting along with It wasn't really getting on with Harry at all. We got to France to Paris we have quite a nice cutting room on the Champs D'elysees Chanps Elysees if I remember rightly. And I remember Harry coming in one day by Monday or something, we were looking at something. And he said, Well, I think we better put it all back in rushes. So I said, well, you don't want to edit on the whole film, Harry that I know I'm not having any of this at all. I'm leaving, you can put it back in rushes You can do what you like with it. I'm getting on to the producers. I like getting onto UA and telling them why I'm going. So I rang up the producer to go down to the cafe downstairs, go down, don't do anything come we're coming over with
Alan Legard 33:12
cash ready to get things going.
So
Richard Marden 33:18
they came over? They took the point, but we were not getting on them. Harry said I don't know why this is because I like him. I said, Well, I don't like you Harry no pont telling me I didn't like it. I don't trust you. So there we are. And that was sort of mollification if there is such a word went on. And it was agreed then that Harry should come and see what I'd done give him my notes it's any passively signed by the lawyers sounds all got very stupid. So we'd sort of went on that r way. And then we got the point coming up to dubbing and we had to shoot all the effects and Harry and I were then talking again. And he said How long do you think it will take to shoot all these effects? I said, Well, it can take 10 days to two weeks. He said we've never worked with Kampski. Okay, have you? I said no. Who is Mr.Krampski ? I said, hey, I've got just one. Everything remember, just like that. One leg with a high heel on no one flatcher?. He was clever. To be absolutely true. He was very clever. Anyway. We also have music score was written by Frenchman very good friend now dead went to live in Los Angeles to do Anne of a 1000 days is never forgotten. But he wrote the score, Harry didn't bother to turn up to the music session, which I thought was pretty exciting. And the producer I knew couldn't because he'd said he had something else he had to do when we came to build the sound effects, shooting It was Paul Kayatt's? problem to be in there with Gramsci and Harry because he was the sound editor and I was in the cutting room near to the dear where we were doing it for up law and Paul comes storming out of the theatre and said that's it had enough of it the mans a fool I won't have anything to do with it
Alan Legard 35:25
other he's repeating what you were doing
Richard Marden 35:27
so you thought I see when I said before you do I'll go in and cool down so I went it the strap spent the rest of the day there making notes so on came out that evening I suppose about six to find the two Pauls Paul Kayatt? and Paul produce eye to eyeball and by with by me with my notebook and Paul Kayatt? hope your taking plenty of notes Dick, because we're gonna need them. I said what's that mean, it I said don't be silly, Pauly I'm not having I'm not taking responsibility for this. I mean, if you're going, I'm going, but this is absurd. I said, Look, we'll get on with each other very well. I said, We you'd be very helpful to me. And we both like each other and get on. I said, we know this man's and idiot What's the point of us falling out about it? If he wants to screw his film up That's his business. It's not ours. So we go in, got together. finally finished it. And Harry then put a lot of things back, which we took out and I just don't think he was right. It wasn't a big success.
Alan Legard 36:42
So far three is a he wasn't really a lead experience. I mean, that when
Richard Marden 36:45
he only he was Professor B's on Sam's Film Academy, of course. He's only made two pictures and actually dealing Well, the only person I think that one could say that well, time felt. But also for him, I think when Orson Welles was around, because Welles who only had the one, about five days, four days work, where he was dying on the bed. They didn't have to move around anywhere. But he had lots of bottles of Pouilly Fussee around and
Alan Legard 37:17
God, yes. And so he was complicating things straight away.
Richard Marden 37:20
And he also was saying,to Harry what objective Have you got on there? And Harry would say we'll take it off and pull on or something?
Alan Legard 37:29
It sounds rather sort of in a way this is the negative side of filmmaking, isn't it? I mean, this this does happen not only in production,
oh, no, indeed, from time to time. I mean, on the whole, when your career you haven't had an awful lot of that have, you know, generally speaking, when you're dealing with an experienced folk, unsure themselves, and they tend you get lumbered with all the problems, ultimately?
Richard Marden 37:50
Well, you do because if one day you hadn't done or have done the wrong way that you end up, you know,
Alan Legard 37:56
where anyway, the film presumably turned out in the end as acceptable, did it? I mean, it was it was a finished article
Richard Marden 38:02
writing, I was interested, it was a very extraordinary fantasy film, which should have been better than it was is the trouble with it. And it's the pity that it wasn't better. But there we are, you know, that
Alan Legard 38:19
you were let's let's get on to those lovely films of yours, which are the recent, comparatively recent ones. Well,
Richard Marden 38:24
I mean, it was called a Mel Pertwee? which I gather, I believe the translation is the Foxes Lair around i don't think i think it was once shown on television here a long time ago. I don't know I don't think you've ever been shown in the cinema. So after all, that nonsense went on. I came back to sleuth.
Alan Legard 38:47
Oh, yes, that's great.
Richard Marden 38:49
Love Joe Mankewicvz Who was a wonderful, wonderful man.
Alan Legard 38:56
Nice to work with him
Richard Marden 38:57
one of those extraordinary things. As we were remarking upon Bafta earlier that he wrote Skippy it's just a rather strange thing that in find that the first film we ever thought was written by somebody who later said that his name with a name that what I've known all during one, childhood and adolescence, I had never thought in one's life that one would ever meet them. And the idea that they should actually be listening to anything that your saying is beyond conception.
Alan Legard 39:27
I can believe that. And he
Richard Marden 39:29
was a lovely man. He was a man who was very, very
Alan Legard 39:35
bright. He literally doesn't be very literal about you and sort of intellectuals as opposed to the American Yes,
Richard Marden 39:41
he loved words. And he, his brother, Hermon Mankewichvz was older than he. He did the man he read the script for the Kane. Joe, I think it was kind of the great torch. for Herman because Herman was the one that brought him out to Los Angeles. Oh, And Joe was a fund of fascinating tales. And he was, again, I thought like an old teddy bear rather, grumpy, nice man who? you asking questions with a Dickey, you are interviewing me, and I'm not interviewing you Joe just asking you. And then he did come up. He was a clever man, he said, and he's the only director I've ever worked for Who said anything? The very beginning of the film was important. Because he said, Now, you got to talkie two good actors. listen to the dialogue. You won't have to hang around, because they'll give you the performance as you need. And he was absolutely right
Alan Legard 40:59
on that film.
Richard Marden 40:59
And he said to me, once they think I gotta shoot an awful lot of film Dick, I'm not believe me , you'll always have what you want. And he was absolutely right. He also was somebody who, would never , alibi, because one day he looked at rushes and said, I don't like that shot. It's my fault completely. I want to do it over the next day, next time we're shooting in that direction. And he said, You know, I usually get lost somewhere. I didn't mean I get lost that early on. Nice to hear that now.
Alan Legard 41:35
Are we having some real professional man who knows? He
Richard Marden 41:38
knows his stuff? Yes. Right.
John Legard 41:40
He would not actually the greatest of directors from a sort of cinematic point of view. No, he wants to talk. We're talking. Yeah. And All about Eve was that Did you
Richard Marden 41:51
hear that? He wrote directed that? Yeah.
Alan Legard 41:54
And what else?
Richard Marden 41:56
He what he did? I mean, I asked him once. What was it like to direct your first picture? And he said, Well, is it you know, that I was a producer. And he said, I have my opportunity to direct And I wanted to do that. And so he said, I did all my homework. I came on he first day on the set. And I was prepared, I had this wonderful unit. To feed was so helpful and kind of nice. And we shot this shot that said, in the afternoon, we shot everything that I prepared. And so my first assistant came back to me and said now sir , Where do we go now? And he said, I was totally flummoxed because I didn't know what to do. And he said, I think well, we'll take a picture of that. But why don't we do the close up of the girl if you've done that they've had somehow I floundered my way through the rest of the day. And those days is that they posted the rushes were processed very quickly, and the studio executives could see them about 10 or 11 in the evening. And he said, I thought I won't be allowed in the studio the next day because they'll have rumbled me and so on I got into the studio and he said those days we as a unit used to see our rushes first thing in the morning before we went on to the set. He said I went in and there was this unit he said yesterday that I thought was that wonderful today, I thought well, they that they despise me because they know I don't know what I'm doing. And he said that it's very private moment when the lights go down, up comes your first shot. And he said there it was. My leading lady is seated at the desk looking wonderful. She had stars in her eyes. And she said he did very well compose, set set up. He said then the candelabra did I don't remember that. But thing to be in there did all look very balanced and fine. And she delivered her lines. And I said shot after shot came up. It's I couldn't quite recollect looking like that. But they all looked really good. And he said the penny dropped. He said my unit knew perfectly well that the studio executives are going to see everything every night before they move on to the next day and they weren't gonna let it look at it look bad, because it reflected on them
Alan Legard 44:01
is great. Yeah.
Richard Marden 44:02
So he said, I realise you got to respect your unit. And he said, what I always need is it as a good camera man, a good operator, because these are not very good with lenses. And he said, I may say I want to see this, this dot operator can come to me and say well, Joe, what is it you actually want to see is what I want to see I come down the stairs and so on and so forth. He said why don't you put the camera on therehe said they'll know what to do, but he can tell performance. He can tell story. But listen, I
Alan Legard 44:31
know he's got another person and doesn't necessarily look through the viewfinder. Because he would well
Richard Marden 44:35
i think he did and they will always hope somebody come and change it. Cuz that's the sort of thing I want. Yeah, but now they've come to the desk . Joe that's what you want? Do you want to go over there by to being up one you know? So I was. I liked him for that
Alan Legard 44:51
as being one of his best films actually Sleuth because I was in sales of simple piece of storytelling with the two actors and so on. It was just soapstone. rivetting from beginning to end.
Richard Marden 45:01
I think he's a clever old thing
Alan Legard 45:03
it's a lovely play anyway,
Richard Marden 45:05
I went out to New York with with a copy of the film. And he lived in upstate New York and I went over there about one most ridiculous weekend. If flew on a Saturday, one will theoretically be put up at the Plaza. I go to the Plaza and there's a message saying that Rosemary Mankevicz will be coming down to pick you up and take you out to stay with them for the night and she came and drove me up to upstate New York with let the film film with the film I think and Joe said when I go look at it tomorrow morning, and then I'll decide whether we preview it or not. So we went have he had a lovely old farmhouse and a barn and a guest house................................
Richard Marden 0:03
So dear old Joe had this lovely guest house and sons that one stayed the night with him and his wife, rosemary. And I had toad on hole for supper because Joe said, I'd love to come onle get toad in the hole when I have an English guest. So we have that. Then we drove into New York, he saw the film and approved it, and we took it off to Boston that afternoon and previewed it. That evening, flew back from Boston to New York and the Bristol Myers private jet landed, airport, I suppose. But 230 in the morning, went back to the hotel. And I flew back to London the following evening, seeing some friends in New York that day, right. And so thst really was Sleuth. And then after Sleuth, I worked on Frankenstein the true story, which was for television for Universal Televisions to two sets of two hours was produced by Hans Stromberg Jr. Directed by Jack Smite. With a script by Oh God, famous English poet and writer went to America in 1938.
Unknown Speaker 1:31
Christopher Christopher
Richard Marden 1:32
Isherwood script by Christopher Isherwood and with Leonard Whiting as Dr. Frankenstein, the unboxer very good actor, Canadian actor, handsome man is the creature and the story. Premise would it really told the story very well, from the book from the novel, that instead of him being born hideous, he was born as handsome young man, but there had been a problem in the process, which meant that he started to deteriorate, hence his reason for behaving in a sort of uncivilised fashion. I think it was not a bad film at all. I was likemost of the film. And it was a great fun to work on. Hunt Stromberg, Jr. was the son of Hans Stromberg we're famous Hollywood producer, who was with a very interesting man, he'd been a lot of his life in television. And he was a mischievous had a cranky but funny sense of humour
was
there was a hilarious joke, which I didn't witness but he told me about when having made the creature, Male creature by sunlight, members all sorts of thing the lady creature was produced by being having kind of melt left in various tanks, coloured liquids reduced with with with more beautiful process. And the final shot before she actually was revealed. She was put in a tube of coloured liquid, which was declear , and she will be revealed at all her glory. What everybody had forgotten was that if you put somebody in a tube, it acts as a convex lens. make people terribly short and fat
Alan Legard 3:35
yeah, right.
Richard Marden 3:35
That's beautiful. creature was dumpy So he couldn't do that he was producer He was produced about it, because they amusing the situation. So he was there. It was great fun doing that. And well, we just missed out that stage. And I think we dissolved through to her coming out from something, if I remember now, can't quite was 23 years ago, but Jack Smite was a very nice man, fun director and be interested in jazz and very, very able a nice guy again, with a dry sense of humour because he once led me into you know , the annoying thing about the English press and said every time I make a film, which I'm proud of, they announced it to be directed by Jack Smith
Alan Legard 4:26
and jack Smith.
Richard Marden 4:28
Yeah, and so anyway, that we finished on that and that with throw then there was an abortive version of A Voyage Round my Father, which was going to be made at Elstree and indeed, started
Alan Legard 4:46
out in television eventually,
Richard Marden 4:47
eventually came out on television with the same director. But this is going to be a movie and it was going to have Rex Harrison playing.
Alan Legard 4:56
Oh, yes. Well, Dad. Yes, John Mortimer's father. Yes. Because it wasn't it wasn't the end wasn't it?
Richard Marden 5:02
Wasn't it? Yeah. Anyway, the film went bust about three weeks in. And, of course, when those things happen upset the applecart completely because you got out of sync.
Alan Legard 5:21
turned on, you're in a vacuum and
Richard Marden 5:25
and so that held it a summer.
Alan Legard 5:27
Did you suffer much from that over the years? Well, is that thing you described earlier? That film you described earlier? Which, which went bust? Oh, no, those were the
Richard Marden 5:35
I've been lucky. Parthian Productions? Yes. Parthian. a television for America. I've been lucky. They've never worked
Alan Legard 5:45
with Harry Allen Towers for those
Richard Marden 5:48
No I've been fortunate to avoid that make the bag, the bagman that he I never did work for. So this went awry in 74. Right. And then another film, which I thought was going to go didn't?
And
was a bit of a lean year Because it was at the time that I decided to change the open plan, the flat
John Legard 6:19
tomorrow, lending money.
Richard Marden 6:22
All had the wrong.moment The wrong moment happens to everybody. Yeah. And so somewhere towards the end of 74, up cropped another film, and this was in Vancouver. And this was originally called Casseden is Coming.? And it was, in fact came out with a film called Russian Roulette. Oh, yes. Not a good movie. It was George Segal. And remember, Nigel Stock, and a girl whose name I can't remember are directed by an American ex editor called Lou Lombardo, who had was a very good editor, who was absolutely The only other person. I think I said, there are just a couple of people, the people in this company. This one, he was the director, his first directing job, he had cut a lot of movies. And we had an American producer, who was as weak as water. Jerry, something I can't remember his name. No. And we started by that system to know that our job went out to Vancouver. We had cutting rooms in the same place called the Denman Place Inn where we lived cutting rooms and production of this perfectly reasonable setup. And I had George Segal's wife Marian, as my second assistant, which was not a very good state of affairs, really, because she was a pothead. And also, she was having it away with Lou. Also, she was some sort of associate producer on the film. So although she's just one incestuous Swan in late, you couldn't very well say, What the fuck are you doing? Because you know, you couldn't. So after about two or three weeks, for some reason, I thought, No, don't be paranoid. But I don't think this is going. Well, I really don't. But I thought this is probably paranoia, because Lou is not very good at communicating with anybody and so on. And I had to go and see Jerry, the producer about something to do with the film, and we talked about it and he said to me, oh, by the way, you know, Lou, wants another editor, don't you? I said no. He said, Well, yeah. I said, Well, he hasn't said anything to me. I said no, you wouldn't because he's not very good at communicating with anybody I said Well, I said who knows about this well London or Los Angeles because it's the name of Cavanagh? part of producer side of it so I said well this is charming Why don't you break something in my office I don't want to break anything in your office matter jerry but I knew that it was I went back down to the cutting room said to Nigel I made a lot of noise I knew Marian has around saw a lot of cans there kicked things and said lose a chip and things like that. I knew she was having it away with him and I said to Nige I don't know what we can do about this because it all seems to be out of my hands I've gone too far. I think we're on the next plane home Now we had a very nice associate producer Colin Collin whatever is ever Collin thing anyway doesn't matter. He will be pleased that Colin Brewer bit of a rough diamond very nice guy though. Who came to me that they Dick I don't know what the hell's going on is absolute bloody nonsense this year now is that I made an arrangement you to meet Lou this evening in his office.so I said okay. So I thought well, I have absolutely nothing to lose on it. And I you know, I'll go in galleon under full sail for I thought . I said a couple of things I got to say to you. The first is your two faced bastard. The second is your shit. And I said, we'll keep this. And I said, and you a cunt. Because I said, we'll keep this all in four letter words, because you're incapable of talking to anybody else in any other fashion. He said, Well, Richard, I mean, I didn't know you had this sort of spirit. I said, Well, I do. Lou And I said, Does anyone think to do with a piece of shit that's like toilet paper and put it down the lavatory and pull the chain. So he was really rather taken aback. He said, Well, who do you think I'm going to get to cut the movie? I said, Well, I imagine you've made your arrangements about that. so he said you must have realised that I'm the most insecure man around this picture is my first picture that I did. Don't give me that crap Lou I said, youve trod on enough people to get where you got to that did Shut up. It's stupid.
said well, would you consider staying? So I thought, Well, I'm not going out with my tail between my legs. I said, Yes, I will Lou on a couple of made a couple of points. One is, you see nothing until I tell you can see it. And I said, the other thing is, if you stick a dagger and somebody is back, and you pull it out, I said that wound still bleeds, so just remember that. So he sacked the second unit director instead, he was determined to get a section. Because he was amazing. He was a nasty bit of work. And he was an editor himself. And he used to shoot everything with five cameras. I don't, honestly, who knows why these people get these ideas. And I'm not saying I'm th most brilliant editor there ever was Well, I wasn't terribly happy, but I thought we got to work on it, you know, but I mean, I wasn't expecting that. Anyway, in the end, we ended up in Los Angeles for a month. Because Lou had conned Elliot Cafferin? . Because Lou lived in Palm Springs, and wants to be in LA didn't like going to London, particularly and called Elliot in thinking we would have a fine cut in a month's time, which we wouldn't quite obviously wouldn't. Elliot booked the theatre in golden screen studios??in just where we were working to see the film one afternoon, it was quite ridiculous. cos it wasn't ready. And I said to Lou it wasn't ready That's it. So the phone rings when I answered it saying, where's my film? I think you better talk to Lou. Lou, Elliot for you. Yep, I see. Okay, slam. Elliot had sacked Lou For this doesn't seem a good thing to do either. Because whether you like Lou with you don't like him was a clever editor and also it was his film when we needed them at this point. Jerry, whatever his name was as weak as water producer came along wringing his hands ans said Dicky I think we ought to go and see Elliott. But I think we can go and see Elliot what are we going to say? Isn't there we will think of something. So we gotover to Elliot;s office, which was a rather large office. Elliot was, I don't know, in particular, just knew him that time perfectly amiable sort of character in a way I suppose part of the? and so on would have been led off alarmingly about Lou sort of said, I've given this man everything he wants this that the other two first, I can't complain about this. when he said about came over and gave me a big kiss. And he said I'm a very emotional man. You know, Richard? I said, Yes, I understand that. Anyway, we packed it all up, took it back to London, Lou fiddled with some of the film over in Los Angeles. I fiddled with the rest of the lday in Britain and he came over we mixed it we finished it. That was that. After that, I think I did. I can't remember whether after I had had done a picture for Disney with Charles Jarret director called Escape from the Dark or the Horse thieves which is something about
Alan Legard 14:31
funny actually, the films you've had problems on, like tasks and producers or whatever. They don't generally speaking. They're not the memorable ones. They're not the run of the mill.
Richard Marden 14:44
Yes, tasks are going to pick up people weren't doing their jobs properly. Rarely. Yeah,
Alan Legard 14:48
that's right. Yes. The unprofessional one sometimes, but I'm in a good way
Richard Marden 14:53
just because you know, it's all out of control and nobody's nobody's in control. You can make a bad film. When you're in control at least some I've had some a lot about it and you
Alan Legard 15:03
might make a bad film which perhaps does a certain certain job, but this may be a bad script, but at least it's well made.
Richard Marden 15:11
But this was one of those things that then we did a Disney this and say this Escape from the Dark dne as horse thieves. I think it came out as a very nice sort of movie about little children up in Yorkshire pit village and about 1900 and 7 with pit ponies gonna be replaced on the rescue of them. And then sort of but yeah, but but great.
Alan Legard 15:32
Right? Yes, yes.
Richard Marden 15:33
A nice bit of movie. And after that I did a carry on. Carry on England. The last carry on except for Carry on Columbus. Oh, yes. Not a very good one. But I mean, Gerry Thomas, and I've known for years anyway, they're experts. They're sweet. I mean, Gerry poor darling is dead but they are loved they will love Peter Rogers the clever man. I mean, Peter nobody's fool stiil with us thank godPeter was nobody's fool Gerry knew exactly how its needed. He knew exactly that. He'd shoot this but he managed to get a bit of cover that he knew the scenes we're going to be too long's and get out of it but cutting to that then the it But fun
Alan Legard 16:18
formula pictures that they weren't they look better now, I think than they did when they came out? No, I think they do because they were rather sort of used to think they were a bit leaden footed. You know, they weren't terribly. Oh, they're nice characters. But now seeing them and particularly those those artists. So a lot of them no longer with us. No, indeed. Some of them. Yes, they are. But you know,
Richard Marden 16:39
I used to tell my terrible I turn my nose up and
Alan Legard 16:47
they were Sue work as a team. They were
Richard Marden 16:49
only exactly was it a total sort of company that
Alan Legard 16:53
lovely. They really are nice, like so
Richard Marden 16:55
I mean, our one Carry on England wasn't really very good. I think everybody realised that it was the last one. But they was the last one except for Carry on Colombus. wasn't Very good. But it was fun. At least I'd rather carry on I like Gerry and I like Peter And I, you know, I mean, that's another very important fact. I think whatever the move is, like, if the people that you're working with because you spend a lot of very intimate time with them. You don't want to spend a lot of very intimate time with a lot of very unpleasant people. No, quite frankly, even if that would have been I think that must have been about 7576 I think because
yeah, I think it was then about the Carry ons . I get a bit of a muddle here because I can't remember when the major hiatus was or whether it was 7475 76 was a bit dodgy. If I remember rightly, I don't think there was a mess. I think then that 77 I worked with Paul Morrisey on Suddenly , which I thought was quite funny. Everybody else that was terrible. It was bad. And it fell to pieces at the end. But it was Peter Cook and Dudley Moore's version of Hound of Baskervilles Oh, right. Yes. Yeah. Which actually what I have to say wasn't too good. If I don't think ever saw what it did isn't to see it really, John. But I thought a lot of it was very funny but but it didn't work towards the end of it been a funny cast in the broad sense of Denam Elliot, Jessie Matthews. Peter and Dud , Terry Thomas. I mean, theoretically, if
Alan Legard 19:09
you've got all the characters there, well, it
Richard Marden 19:11
should have worked but it didn't and they didn't really work. And so that finished
Alan Legard 19:23
and what was that film you made? And so Didn't you edit in South America or somewhere? Well, that was a Stanley Donen
Richard Marden 19:31
One I did yes for Stanley over there Br, Brazil, which was later in a later was 83 that was Blame it on Rio?
Alan Legard 19:39
Oh, yes, that's right. Okay. Michael Caine. Yeah, that's right. I was quite amused by that.
Richard Marden 19:44
And then, but game sorry is trying to get myself I did Hound of the Baskervilles fnot a gret epic and then went on to Caravans and Munich which was produced and directed well not Directed produced by Elmo Williams a rather large extravaganza, which Elmo and I really cut together because Elmo was a very fine Oscar winning. He had produced the film and he unfortunately it wasn't very good. But it was great fun working with him. It was working in the Bavaria studios in Munich for about three or four months and then we came back over the year and dubbed it Twickenham . What not a great epic, epic, but it wasn't very good, I'm afraid but fun to be here again with nice people and they all know and Elmo was a very clever man and one of those very curious things that you know, he was a very experienced editor and he, he was the Oscar winner
Alan Legard 20:43
a contemporary of would be the same vintage of much younger than Bill Hornbeck because they were a
Richard Marden 20:48
bit younger, but he knew David Lean , he would have been a bit younger than Lean is about four years younger than Lean But he was an Oscar winning editor from America, and eventually became production.
Alan Legard 21:05
He was on
Richard Marden 21:07
Fox production over here, and then set up on his own. He always wanted to make Caravans he made it in Iran, they I joined it after , they finished shooting because he didn't like the American editor so they wanted somebody else. I got the job and they'd gotten rid of the American. So anyway, when he came back to Munich, Elmo, and I really , we're doing it together. We remember the first time we were sitting in this big cutting room in Munich where I was in one called Elmo in the other was his daughter, Stacy, it worked with him. It will always have this terrible sort of feeling of the day now they're much more better than you do. And he's an Oscar winner and I've just made him feel slightly curious about and shy about for all again these things go back and forth too much on if you wonder what you're doing how do you make your mind up you'll have these silly thoughts going through your head and dear old Elmo suddenly shouting across How are you getting on Dick? I've just made a fucking awful cut. How you doing? So you suddenly they brought you on? Anyway, that'll happen. And we finished that and then did a film for Television The Corn is Green which George Cukor directed and Katie Hepburn played a school mistress and a very brilliant young actress called Ian Saynor played the boy and whatever happened to him after that? I don't know. For some reason it didn't take off. They got a dear olf George Cukor and he was a wonderful man. He was in a very old gentleman. And but a great person. One of those great Hollywood directors particularly of dialogue all those Hepburn Tracey movies and Cukor Yes, he Philadelphia Story last right which was produced by Joe Mankewicz of course
Alan Legard 23:06
Oh, was it Yes.
Richard Marden 23:06
Was it really? Yes. And George possibly Oh gentlemen damn but but he was so bad he never gave an artist a line reading he just put the idea in their head and kept in their head and he and Cage of course it worked together for years and years and they were really old professionals like wonderful sorts of team and then we finished that off in America we're because we cut it here and then got the final cut in the states so went one went over there to work you go to Los Angeles more than one had to have a standby editor I wasn't allowed to touch it at all because he did all the work now just gonna
Alan Legard 23:53
do yeah.
Richard Marden 23:54
Dearc . George was absolutely wonderful because he had the the amusing man had a very very tart wit quite ascerbic but also was a kind man. He went off to Los Angeles, I suppose I was fine about a week or two later. It's a so said this is my telephone number address with a Call me as soon as you get there I said t I have got some other friends And when I say important to have somebody youn should know I want you to call me Oh,
Alan Legard 24:25
nice. How very considerate.
Richard Marden 24:27
So I got there and he hadn't seen it at all And he invited me to lunch at his house. And if it wasn't, I think I said well, I thought it was working fine. And eventually we screened it for him and then he started work out. He only ever came to see it once again in the cutting room I saw and he was wonderful because he or he would say things like not I think we're going to close up there or what However, the obvious thing, I remember saying, and I knew exactly what he meant by that, and I can't explain it. But there was a sequence which of the dialogue sequence, obviously but and he said Dicky Have a look at that again, I think it's been rather nervously cut.
Alan Legard 25:19
Oh, he said that. That's interesting.
Richard Marden 25:21
And I thought that the clever thing cuz I think I know what you mean cutting. And I did look at it and I thought get it. So you
Alan Legard 25:31
were able to
Richard Marden 25:33
do something out of it out of it. And you know he was a lovely man, he was very hospitable. He was always invited went over for supper or dinner on the Saturday and so on. And he was just the first time I went this lovely have much of had a great walled garden that was set back in the garden on the wall around, you know, a big swimming pool and so on. And all of which was had the same furniture that it had in the 30s when people like Garbo and Taylor and everybody had sat around. And I remember saying to my George I can't believe this is so they did Dicky what can I say? And
Alan Legard 26:14
they actually did the dubbing at Warner Brothers to do that.
Richard Marden 26:17
I didn't stay for the actual I stayed for the fine cut, and then they mixed it that was that. But he had this. First I went to the house I saw on a table, beautifully bound volume called my life and similar George Cukor So I thought it was a bit too. So the next time I was there, I wasn't feeling shy, it felt more at home. I found it again and he was sort of over there somewhere. And I opened it full of blank pages. And I said George what's this he said we felt you have opened it at last then Dickie
Alan Legard 27:07
it's just sort of gag. It's
Richard Marden 27:08
a great friend had given it to him in person
Alan Legard 27:15
in films. blank.
Richard Marden 27:19
He was such a lovely man transitory nature of movies or something. Yes. He he was a man with great humour, great, kind of great warmth. He of fact, if I ever went back to Los Angeles while he was still alive, I was ring him I went to see him because I felt he was somebody was always welcoming. you know I'm sure. Kate had a little house at the bottom of his garden. Which she used when she was in Los Angeles She really lives in New York. And that is that is that for 78 the last night, that I was there, she gave a supper in her house. She took me around this little house this small house. And first of all, I hadn't realised she was a great water colorist. Very nice paintings which and she also made models out of clay in wax. She gave me a bit of wax, that I have to this day you never know when you might need it. You know? It's no good moping when Spencer was ill it's no good moping you know dear you got to keep your mind occupied them very much of a marvellous East Coast American lady was no nonsense about her at all. And the other thing she showed me was a photograph of presumably young what a young Spencer Tracy and another young man who was interested look two drunks. One made it the other didn't. She's a remarkable woman, a woman of great sensibility. She must be getting on a bit now. She is grasping nearly 90.
Alan Legard 28:57
If you though, that refill keeps going up that person. And she she always had that that slightly shake
Richard Marden 29:04
she'd had parkinsons was it arkinsons and she's been able to cope with it a lot. But it never
Alan Legard 29:11
got any worse as it was.
Richard Marden 29:12
which is which is I think then something I mean, she I'm sure looks after herself
Alan Legard 29:17
Even with The Lion in Winter, you know, long goes that. It was sort of the first time I noticed it.
Richard Marden 29:23
No, she she was a remarkable lady. And she did a lot for people who know she she was a very . She she had a driver over here that she used to use. And I think she first met him when they worked on a film together probably a long time ago. And she always used when she came over on private visit. And about this I go back 20 odd years ago, and she didn't tell me this. I was told this by somebody else. She's rang him up from New York. And so I'm coming over David, Can you drive me around and he said yes. He could said well how's everything As I said, has a family in the you know fine. got two kids or whatever it was. We're going to get a new house oh that's good Could they need a bigger house you and me a little bit of a problem, but we're gonna say what's the problem? We can't find what you should do if we found it but but it's, you know, it's we can't but what is What's the trouble? Is it was his deposit you know She said what? How much is it? Is it what she did? How much is it? Well, it's whatever right? When do you want it? Well, I don't know. Could we have look? When you want it get onto my secretary ask for it She'll let you have it. Don't get on I've either forgotten it by them. But if I ever discover that you haven't asked for it, I should say well he did and he got it. Until I think that a lot of things. Nice that is like that. You know, we're very good. So we did that. Let me do a film with Stanley Donen called Saturn Three. Oh, yes. Which is the science fiction film Farrah Fawcett that Kirk Douglas and Harvey Keitel wasn't a great success but then that was 79 wasn't it
Alan Legard 31:11
you keep working make sure you didn't have many gaps in
Richard Marden 31:15
T was lucky then 80 came along back to Richard Goodwin with the Mirror cracks Guy Hamilton.
Alan Legard 31:21
Oh god you worked
Richard Marden 31:22
you did that. Then after Mirror Cracked Evil Under the Sun was another Poirot film
Alan Legard 31:27
those of Agatha Christie films must have been difficult to work on and away because they're always so static what they remember the Murder on the Orient Express that was in the same series. Well, that was the first one Yeah, I thought that was terribly disappointing because it was late and there was a train got stuck in the snow the trin into came to a stop and it became very boring.
Richard Marden 31:46
But this is the trouble with Agatha Christie. I mean because the Evil Under the Sun you can move around the island a bit Yes, but Mirror Cracked I can't remember we did
Alan Legard 31:58
is I did see that is I was all the country house was
Richard Marden 32:00
that's all the country quite enjoyed lots of big stars. Yeah. So then 81 was Evil under the Sun. 82 got a bit complicated because there was going to be a film called For Harler? which Canon were making and that'll that'll went a bit awry. and ended up doing a terrible film called Swordof the Valiant, which I fortunately have a stop date on for some reason I can't remember now. Because that got it. Very bad. I've never came out on the cinema, came out on a video. shot in Wales, by Steven Weeks, very badly. And they stopped shooting that halfway through it wasso terrible they had to pick it all up again. Much later on. by which time I'd fortunately got stopped date on it because I was going out to Rio to do blame it on Rio. Road to Rio for Stanley. So that happened in 83. I came back from that did a little bit of work just helping out on on Last Days of Pompeii for television. and then went off to Mexico. Falk and the Snowman for Friedenberg again. I mean, John like but my thing I'm just gonna have another pee take under your so as 84 85 went to Mexico Falk and the Snowman with John Sclessinger with Timothy Hutton Sean Penn that really took one through end of 83, more or less 84 then 85 Half Moon Street. Bob Swain, the American director who lived in Paris, he didn't haven't seen any of these interesting He had made a film in France, which had got a number of awards about the French police with them, which name I've completely forgotten. He was a nightmare rather, rather. But he was interested I think in films about conspiracy. And I think we're very intelligent man and the stuff other than the French police come gangster film which I thought was very good. I wasn't I don't know the films that other films do
John Legard 34:53
Read what he says about that film.you know this this will make you angry. Totally muddled compromise between thriller on exploitation piece. Its message seems to have gotten left on the cutting room floor.
Richard Marden 35:08
Halliwell. Yeah, this is
Alan Legard 35:12
his successor john Walker might be
Richard Marden 35:14
no really may have a certain point there what can you say? Sigourney Weaver Michael Caine really and both very nice
Alan Legard 35:24
lovely people. Yeah, well, I mean Sigourney Weaver I think Weaver I think she's marvellous,
Richard Marden 35:28
and she's very nice woman and a very intelligent woman. Um, so that was that was that. And then after that comes 86. And one first film that I did with Clive Barker called Hellraiser, which was very gory horror flick, which became a bit of a cult produced by a young man called Christopher Fig, who I had first met when he was a runner on the Mirror Cracked at I used to, I kept up with because he always said he wanted to be a producer. And I thought you're young man, who's going to be a producer one day. And that is 86. He rang me up and said, Look Dick I've got the film. And I've got the script. And I've got somebody in from . And I said, Well, I don't know whether this script is for me. I wish you a great deal of luck with it. But I don't know. That'd be very good, because it's very gory, and so on. Therefore, why don't you come and meet Clive and I met Clive Barker, who had written it. And who was just beginning to make his name as a very literate hollow , writer, very nice and amusing person. And so we got together and made Hellraiser.
Alan Legard 36:38
Tell me about the sort of cutting room and now we're getting to the sort of recent films and the big scale productions. And so do you have far more people in the cuttings working with you now compared with, say, 20 years?
Richard Marden 36:50
Now? I think you still it depends really on this on the amount of film to set you see you still would have basically probably, you'd have a first assistant asecond assistant maybe two seconds now. Then, of course, you have a sound editor. And then you'd have his assistant, you'd have a dialogue editor and his assistant, Foley editor, Foley editor footsteps,
Alan Legard 37:12
does entirely footsteps
Richard Marden 37:14
and movement seems foley editor his assistant, do you have a music editor? Probably because now everything is so complicated
Alan Legard 37:21
foley editor is graded the same as like a dubbing editor? I mean, are they Oh,
Richard Marden 37:25
yes. Because they get foley editor is is is going to cover the whole film from first frame to last frame with every movement. Yeah. Right. Because once you take your dialogue off, you've got to fill it all in for foreign version.
Alan Legard 37:40
So fairly recent invention. I mean, no, perhaps they have always had, they didn't didn't call them foley editors
Richard Marden 37:47
Foley on America. It's an American , I'm tell we used to call them footsteps. But they weren't credited you see its only really in the last 10 or 12 years, you've got these huge rollers where everybody from the tea lady to the Yeah, that's right. Yeah, everybody's on it now.
Alan Legard 38:06
one of the reasons why I was asking this question is that, you know, I understand that, you know, because of the sort of vast budgets on these films now. And having spent my budget on production, once you get to editing, I mean, it's all hands to the pumps and bring in people to get it finished. All the things
Richard Marden 38:22
can be and I think this is to a certain extent, what does happen now because I think I've read an article in variety the other day, a friend of mine sent me from certain Hollywood editors saying that now they've got into the digital process. Yeah, they're cutting the schedules down to such a degree. And people are working 18 hours a day and never getting to get it sick, am I ever going to something's gonna have to happen. They didn't want to be quoted to say that they were but I think there is still the lack of comprehension between the
Alan Legard 38:52
two. This is a disadvantage of, of electronic editing or digital editing. Because in a way, it's the once you've got all that stuff fed in and you can probably do it quicker because physically
Richard Marden 39:04
Well, you can you can physically get it in there. That's the decision time is that is the same, I suppose. Yeah. Because you're introducing to this you're gonna do that. You can get there quicker in terms of getting from the beginning of the roll to the end of the roll the impression I
Alan Legard 39:21
got when I was actually there was Bernard Dribble one day you can do yeah.
Richard Marden 39:27
And I have had very little experience out at all I know you know,
Alan Legard 39:33
I was always pleased to see you handling. film
Richard Marden 39:35
I got into the I've had a little bit to do with it. But um, so the thing really that has made the change in terms which has been a long term one, although they haven't always been credited is the fact that because now every most films have to have an international track. That means that you got to have everything there. other than the dialogue. So that means you're Foley footsteps or whatever you call them
Alan Legard 40:05
learn something is that important. Yeah, yes. That's interesting. I've learned something today with
Richard Marden 40:13
fo le y. And I think it was somebody in America called Foley was the one Mr. Foley. Mr. Foley. I think you said like Mr Dolby Mr Foley I think I think it was that. And so that's, so we did Hellraiser, which was full of lots of tricks. And so it was a very low budget movie. I like Clive very much Clive is now a multimillionaire not through his films, but through his writing, because he's a very Barker Barker. Then after Hellraiser One we did Hell, Raiser two, which was called Hell Bound. And that was directed by young American called Tony Randall, who was the one I was mentioning earlier, who said have fun much fun wants to be at Pinewood because he heard so much about it. And he had been the executive of a company which had been putting money into the first Hellraiser but he wanted to direct and I gather, I hear from him occasionally, and I don't quite know what he's doing. I'm hoping to go off to Los Angeles in a month time or so a holiday to see people just yeah, places there. And I'd try and find him. So then after that, gets Hellraiser Hellbound
Alan Legard 41:29
it says hell bound and Hellraiser two are side by side here.
Richard Marden 41:33
That's why cuz it's the same. Hell Raiser One sorry. So Hellbound Hellraiser two are the same.
Alan Legard 41:39
Yeah, it is.
Richard Marden 41:41
And Hellraiser was the
Alan Legard 41:42
doesn't mention Hell Raiser
Richard Marden 41:46
Maybe it does. And after that,
Alan Legard 41:50
goes, it does. Sorry, isn't Hellraiser three there was?
Richard Marden 41:52
Yes. Which would be made mistakes, I think. Then came another one, which Clive Clive didn't direct Hellbound he was executive producer, it then came? Oh, yeah.
Alan Legard 42:23
No matter when did you do? Hamlet was that
Richard Marden 42:25
9o Hamlet was 1990. And this other one was 89 I've got off subject.
Alan Legard 42:37
No matter. Don't worry, come back. on it . That'll come back.
Richard Marden 42:41
Hamlet was 90 91. Nothing very much. Like that little video with Eric. Rattray?
John Legard 42:47
Any thoughts on Hamlet?
Richard Marden 42:49
Yes, I think that Mel gave a marvellous performance. I think that he also was an investor in the film. And I think it was due to that, that the thing was as well. in the end went through as well as it did because Mel Franco, who are very, very fond of who had a slight problem with the bottle sometimes. And Mel, who had given up drinking, given up smoking for the whole thing sounded, I think, quite irritating. But I think there were one or two
John Legard 43:27
were there moments
Richard Marden 43:28
moments that Franco and Mel have never really got out. But I think it was a fun movie. A very well made film, I think and I thought it worked very well. I think Mel was excellent. I thought Helena Bonham Carter was so good. She was
Alan Legard 43:44
excellent, you know, to your point of view, it was when
Richard Marden 43:49
we had quite a lot of fun on it Franco is the first time that one saw the rushes of the burial of Ophelia whether it was by the Buddha cast in the background right. See there? It looked as if there had been a football mob out of control. And this was when Franco I think had also been out of control. And I put it together and showed it to Dyson Lovell who was the producers. For God's sake, don't let Mel see this for gods sake Franco Franco who does have a lot of time. We're very fond of him. Love saidn darling. I think we need some mending here that we'll be able to see. Well, we can do that very easily. No problem. Which is good . I mean, there's a time
Alan Legard 44:47
that's why you should.
Richard Marden 44:50
Yeah, and there was one other occasion when we had when, prior to the death of Ophelia and the queen is telling them about the death of Ophelia flower. With Glenn Close walking along and cutting away to the key and cutting away to the other characters, and Franco chucked a wide shot made medium shot. David's lighting is always with wide open so you'll have no depth of focus. Hmm. Although what I'm saying
no, this is fascinating. So consequently the wide shots or alright but once you get into the close shots its difficult poor focus puller has no chance. at allShe's not...............................................................................
Richard Marden 0:03
So I say the focus puller has very little chance if things got the artists normal, right lines on the marks. So any shot, I then close any shots, I could use the medium tracking shot lens I put that together with the close ups of in between and the close ups there and so forth And Franco, looked at it , and that seemed alright about a month late he marched into the cutting room well, quite impossible , but what how can you do that? How could you do nothing matches? I mean, there is a wide shot now we go there, why should we not have complimentary is on the on the tracking shot. We're going to get to the close shots, the people that are listening it's all wrong . And I said I see. But I think we've got like why don't we get in the theatre If I knew something like this? And I said to my assistant would you put the other shots, you know, the close shot and the medium shot tracking up in the theatres, they will go in and have a look. So I said Franco , why don't we then I said you can't use the other shots because they were in and out of focus all the time. I don't believe that I'm wrong. I mean, I must look at them, it will come in and have a look. So we go and have a look. And you couldn't you know very well. If you're here one thing, and then a one other thing in one shot. If it's out of focus, and it comes in a bit you think it's more in focus. It is more in focus, but it's not in focus. I don't use it. Darling I think that we can use I think we can't. Well, I we should I said alright we shall try to come back. And so I said right now above, let me have a look. I've cut it in. And I've was doing the best I could with it. I knew it wouldn't work anyway because you're cutting from things that are perfectly sharp, to other things that are perfectly sharp to something which is
not perfectly sharp. So I put this shot in I said Franco come have a look Darling you've done this deliberately this looks ridiculous to can't use that that. I can no can't Franco That's why you can't have it in
I did. Franco Are we now cutting because we think something's in focus. Or we're not cutting for dramatic reasons. What are we you know, what are you telling me? I say you're telling me that you have to have it the way it was? I said yes. Why are you always right? I said I am not always right at all. He just happens to be pretty obvious on this occasion that you can't do that the way it is. So we had one or two litttle Spats, but
it is nice to be able to do that it's good relationship but but he was he knows what he's good about is that he? He doesn't hold it against you. Because he basically respects you because well you know what's not telling you and He will even see where youn go . And when he's convinced that you're right. And that's
it. So then that anyway, Hamlet I mean, that was quite a success. I
Alan Legard 2:59
imagined Well,
Richard Marden 3:00
I think it was I think it's a sleeper. I think it could go on. You know
Alan Legard 3:03
very popular in this country and it looked wonderful. I just had a marvellous day I thought that the Kenneth Branagh;s on Much Ado About Nothing was quite good know
Richard Marden 3:13
that I enjoyed I took Henry the V I didn't like very much. One or two moments I thought were good in His Henry the fifth. I didn't I didn't care for that. Some of it I thought was not bad, but didn't generally like wasn't quite right. There
Alan Legard 3:25
was some good things in it. And they worked hard on it and damage certainly very spectacular and powerful. Yeah,
Richard Marden 3:31
but he just doesn't quite come off to me. It doesn't come off the heat got the strength of it, frankly. But anyway, so then 91 was not a very big year because nothing very much happened. Then we thought things were going to but they didn't. But I did a little video tape with Eric Rattray who's an old friend and who the AP is I've worked with a very nice man. We did a little videotape for the Sally B Memorial with the bad B 17 an aichlessinger again, the Innocents in Berlin.
John Legard 4:12
Oh, yes, the Innocents That's right. Yes. That was the one about tunnelling under.
Richard Marden 4:15
That was a strangeone That one we did. I worked in Berlin for about three months. Very interesting. Had a very nice German assistant was a B once the name Rossellini was and it Isabella was wonderful. I thought she was marvellous. Yes. And so that was that was great. Fun, been a big success, but it was fun. worked in Berlin, which is very interesting that the wall was now down and one could go across all over the place. I have these German assistants Sabine who was a very sweet, lovely lady was from Potsdam In fact, and we also went occasionally to the diesel studios and know Babelsberg where they are We used to have screen rushes occasionally they did a bit of shooting there on occasion, and then brought it back to Britain to finish off now and that was 9293 was Sparrow again for Franco, who's doing this? In 19th century Italian romantic story, Jenny Havelock Alan mantra? the man who read the 19th century Barbara Cartland in Italy. It was a film which I didn't really know why Franco made it except money but it was about a young girl who mother dies, and who goes into a convent to become a nun. Her father has married again and had children by her stepmother. And there is a big outbreak of cholera in Sicily where the film was shot in |Catania And the children are sent to their homes because Mother superior can't take responsibility for the fact So she goes back home and has an experience with the young man who is just handsome young man who couldn't act who she doesn't really understand what is happening, but she's fallen in love with him. In fact, he's fallen in love with her. But she wants to go back to the convent because that's the way she's always been brought up and she wants to become a nun. And so she goes back for tbecause she's nowdisturbed . And this young man has been organised to marry one of her stepsisters. And so she goes back to the convent that you bornus have sort of nervous breakdowns and Vanessa Redgrave plays another crotchety old mad nun has kept away because actually, she had the same thing happened. And it's been a terrible sort of old cliche story which Franco made look lovely Of course. And Sinead Cusack was in it John Castle was in it Vanessa was in it was two young people whose names I forgotten Oh,
it doesn't seem to be
I should think it got any sense it won't be there
John Legard 7:39
in here but it's a it's not appreciated very much wouldn't think it was I think you might be tempted to read what they say I think john Walker who's taken over who's I think I quite respected
Richard Marden 7:55
exactly right. Yes. It's terrible. I knew when I finished the film, I wasn't there for the dubbing cos the Italians didn't want to pay me for that. So I came home and into my horror discovered that Franco that what you will do had fiddled with it now and when I came to see at the end, I thought well, I don't totally disagree with what you've done, but we could have done it rather nore elegantly and I don't think you did it anyway we are that's it for it. And so then came 9495 was Jane Eyre Jane Eyre? Yeah. brings to bring you up to now another old Franco nearly u to date anyway.
Alan Legard 8:41
So there we are. You're pleased you're pleased with Jane Eyre
Richard Marden 8:46
I'm pleased to Jane Eyre The last time I saw it Yes.
Alan Legard 8:50
And well who knows what the world will think of it
Richard Marden 8:55
doing there fiddling what is Franco Franco is given into certain things. Franco is very busy doing his office and so on. doesn't agree with certain things that gets into others he wants to get
Alan Legard 9:10
but presumably the the fiddling around there you've suffered from in the last few months or you've been getting a certain amount of extra mileage out of it. I mean, is that to do with what is it transatlantic? Is it as an American thing is it to
Richard Marden 9:25
It's Miramax them totaly in to it Harvey Weinstein is the man All right, yeah, I mean, yeah, I mean, he can't leave is renowned for interfering with every film that Miramax ever have anything to do with
Alan Legard 9:39
it. It's not not. It's not to do with the fact that Shakespeare on the screen and therefore
Richard Marden 9:45
English it's the fact that it Miramax when it was previewed in New York and Connecticut, Connecticut. It got the best results and anything Miramax the previewed for the last two years 85% Excellent in Connecticut and something like 65 to 60%. Excellent in New York, New York, you wouldn't necessarily the area was shown expected to do terribly well. And so it was very, very good my answer to that dif it aint broke don't fix it. So they of course, felt they had to fiddle
Alan Legard 10:17
with it, they got to be improved even more.
Richard Marden 10:18
So, you know, I think they're mad. And I don't know, I have a pretty shrewd idea. They also then ran it for William Hurt, who plays Rochester He's an extremely good actor mad, but extremely good. And the last thing you ever do, which they did have after he'd seen their body was thinking he said he liked it and so on. They said, Do you have any ideas you'd like to incorporate? though? They got 10 pages of notes? Which I think they're taking notice of it. I think it's crazy. I mean, I wouldn't I get angry about that.
Alan Legard 10:47
Yeah. But when you're no longer involved in it,
Richard Marden 10:50
I'm no longer involved with it. I see it when it comes out and Well, no, no big screen big screen now.Zefferilli nationality, Italian. Italian Florentine Perhaps you lived in states for a long time? No, no, because you know you haven't really lived in the states for a long time it any let it go. He went there. He made films out in the late in the 70s. He lived in Rome and in Positano he said he's been into politics,
Alan Legard 11:23
too. He's been I mean, he's now a senator silly old thing his English is very good. Yeah, well, I think that's probably about it for today, isn't it you've done given us some very fine contribution to the history project, many, many thanks It's almost interesting...................................................
