Judy Ritchie - Transcript
[Interviewer is Janet McBain, Date of Recording 15 07 2018, Observing and occasionally contributing is ex colleague Robert Scott]
[Start of Recording]
[00:00]
R: I expect once we get started you'll have trouble getting me to stop so just tell me, "Stop!"
I: That's fine!
R: Because actually, you know, when I'm thinking about it, speaking to Elaine yesterday, she was talking about Sam Robson and, do you know, I'll tell you this as a wee anecdote - as I say, I was the first woman in the Design Department, I was twenty-two, I had long, blonde hair and I used to wear worry beads on my ankle, you know, so I was that kind of hippy, art student and I had come out of the lift on a Monday morning and the lift doors would open and there was the Riggers' table and the Stage Crew table and one was Rangers, broadly, and one was Celtic and Big Sam (he's a lovely guy!), Big Sam would be sitting there and "Judy, did you shut the window before you left this morning?" and, of course, I am very - not so much now - but then was very prone to blushing and I would just go, blush right up and, of course, both tables would...got her a right one! But now, that would be, presumably, a bit misinterpreted as being - but Sam was great!
I: OK. So, I've just got to start with a head thing. So, this is an interview with Judy Ritchie for the Scottish Broadcasting Heritage Group's Oral History project. The interviewer is Janet McBain, the date is 15th July [2018] and the place is the STV Studios in Glasgow and the copyright of this recording is vested in the Scottish Broadcasting Heritage Group and I would like to start, Judy, right back at the beginning. Where and when were you born?
R: I was born in Girvan in Ayrshire in 1956.
I: And is that where you grew up?
R: No, no. My Mum came from Girvan and I grew up between Paisley and Aberdeen and then I came down to Art School in Glasgow in 1974 and I did Interior Design at Art School.
I: So, that was something, when you were growing up as a teenager, Interior Design, that was something that you...
R: Absolutely. I always always always wanted to do interior design. I was very, I mean, you look at kids now and you are very lucky if you've got that sort of vision of wanting to do something. So yes and I was really so fortunate to get into Glasgow School of Art, to be honest, I would say!
I: So, when you finished at Glasgow School of Art how, talk us through coming out of Art School and how you ended up working for...
R: I finished Art School and I got a job at Glasgow University as, it was a job creation job in those days, as you know, and I was in charge, ridiculously at twenty-one, twenty-two, I was in charge of this group of sixteen year-olds who couldn't get a job so the whole, it was great because I had to design an exhibition and they had to help me build it so it was a year and it was the year of the Jeremy Thorpe trial so we all got papers and we spend every morning reading about Jeremy Thorpe! Really high pressurised stuff! So, the exhibition was on in the Hunterian Museum and it must have been a slack news days in STV because they came to record the exhibition and the Sound guy, whilst fumbling with my blouse, putting on the mic, said to me, "This is quite like a set! You know, they are looking for set designers!" Now, I had never, ever, I mean, what is a set designer?! I didn't know! So I said, "Oh yeah? Very good!" Thinking he was just chatting me up, really. So, the wonderful man that he was, the next day he dropped off an application form so I filled it in. My contract was just finishing with the Uni and I'd got another job as a, it was an interior design job in Edinburgh and I'm so glad I didn't get it! Anyway, I got an interview and I showed up and I sat down with Peter, who was the Head of Design, fabulous! And he gave me a sketchbook and a pencil and I had to, you know, obviously I had my portfolio and he made me sketch a 1940s interior while I was being interviewed! Now, that wouldn't be allowed now, I don't suppose but you know, it was a great, it was a really, really good training for what would come as a Designer because you had to, you know, marry a lot of different things in your head and your hand and your eye all at once and work under pressure so it was, you know, it was good! However, it was a bit nerve wracking! And I got the job! And I think, it was great but I think one of the reasons I got the job was that the franchise was up in 1979, was it? Robert, you might remember?
Robert: 1980.
R: 1980. And I think that part of getting franchise back was to employ more women so, you know, it was an ideal to have, because when I started there were female P.A.s [Production Assistants], now Tina Wakerell would have been the only female Director, I think, at that time, and I was a female Designer and Morag Torbet was the Floor Manager so there were only two or three of us in the creative side. However, fortunately now it's changed and there are lots more but that is the way that I got into STV!
I: Right. So what age would you have been then?
R: Twenty-two, maybe, twenty-three?
I: Right and nothing you had done in your own training or in Art School had, you had kind of thought, you know, I want to work in, so you find yourself being treated...[06:13] How, as a Production Designer, was that a challenge then? I mean, was it, would you talk us through what kind of work...
R: Can I say just as an adjunct, there were six people in my class at Art School in the Interior Design Department. There were six of us in my year. Three of us went into telly, you know. Just, the two, Ian and Kevin went in, that's what they'd always wanted to do and I just kind of ended up by serendipity, if you like. Well, I started off by copying drawings, you know, on a drawing board which was a challenge. And then I remember Geoff Nixon, one of the Designers, saying "Judy, you just design a new desk for Scotland Today." Or, in fact, he'd designed it and he said, "You draw it up." So, of course, I thought, 'Oh my God! Oh my God!' He was a bit of a rascal, Geoff, you know, and it was the first technical drawing I'd done so I'm thinking 'Art School, I've got to put in absolutely every technical aspect of how it'll look', you know, like an Architect's drawing. So, you know, three days later and lots of sleepless nights I produce this and Jack Stevenson, who was the Head of the workshop, lovely man, came stomping in to me, you know, "Yes, Jack, what can I do...?!" I mean, I was the only woman anywhere in sight! Or girl, actually, because I was just a wee lassie! And he said, "That's not how you do technical drawings!" And I said, "Oh?!" So he then, you know, what you did was that you drew what you wanted it to look like and somebody else worked out how to build it. But, of course, you know Geoff, he was just, "Oh, we'll see how she copes with this!" So, there was a lot of baptism of fire, if you like.
I: And did you find, so, the rest of your colleagues in the Design Department at the time would all be men?
R: Yes.
I: Do you know if they had come in through the same route as you, through Art School, or had they...?
R: Oh yes, everybody was Art School trained. Everybody was!
I: And did you find, were they generally quite generous with passing on knowledge and experience to allow you to learn your job?
R: Erm...!!
I: Or were you...
R: Some people were generous. There were a lot of people with problems. Alcohol-related problems in the Design Department so you had to negotiate perhaps. Did I get a lot of help? I would probably say not much. But there was always the back-up there if you needed it and, you know, I was - I see it in my daughter - I was young and enthusiastic and creative, focussed and pretty determined which were all the characteristics you had to have as a woman basically! So, you sank or swam! But a lot of the members of the Design Department were, perhaps, more mature and had, sort of, (this sounds terrible), but washed up in STV. You know, because they'd come up from Granada and their careers were maybe slightly on the wane. You know and I was just dead excited about the whole thing and I just loved it!
[10:05]
I: So, one of your first jobs was on the desk with the News thing but what kind of productions were you working on? Was it studio-based or was it Drama or...?
R: So, Late Calls and what was that crime watch, Robert, [Crimedesk, presented by Bill Knox] what was his name? Marian? Marian? Oh, I did, basically what, there were two studios in STV - Studio A was for all the big productions and Studio C was all the productions - Cartoon Cavalcade - all the things that were done on a weekly basis. So, basically, I learned my trades on doing, you know, putting sets in and out every week because you had to learn to deal with the characters around you so designing was that much of the job and the rest of the job was being nice to folk basically, so as to get your own way but it didn't always work.
I: Presumably you had to have an understanding of the techniques of production within the studio so that you would design something that would create enough room for the camera and that kind of thing?
R: Absolutely.
I: So, it was also an understanding of the process?
R: Yes, it was. And, I mean, you learned by osmosis basically because I think, as a Company, STV maybe hadn't had, I mean they had an intake didn't they, Robert, of all of us really, I think.
Robert: I started in '79 [1979].
R: They had an intake of lots of youngsters and they hadn't necessarily got a training manual so you just did, kind of learn on the job and, you know, I do remember having stand-up arguments with cameramen saying, "No, your camera does move! So, why would you want me to move those three flats because you've got wheels on your camera?!"
I: A young woman. Relatively recently out of Art School. Conscious of being a young, well, girl, as you say.
R: Yes, I was just a wee lassie.
I: Conscious of attitudes.
R: Oh my goodness, yes! Absolute attitudes. I remember having a conversation, now, by this time (and I don't want to dwell on the negative but, you know) people were, it was just patronising behaviour was the norm rather than the exception. And it was, you know, "We really know best!" I was quite feisty so it kind of pissed me off, as you can imagine! But one of the first, just as, you know, we started a women's group. I was thinking about it as I was driving. I can't remember who was in the group but this shows you how backward STV was. Our first fight was to get soft toilet paper in the ladies' loo. We were ever the practical! And, I can't remember the Head of Facilities. Robert, was it Alex somebody? You know, he was a big, fat guy with rubber lips! Don't put that on!!
Robert: No, just go on, I can't remember.
R: I can't remember. Anyway, and he just laughed at us. You know, why would you want to have soft toilet roll?! So, we got a petition, we had to do, and got all the girls to sign, you know, so eventually we got it but that was the kind of level of, it wasn't disrespect, it was just thoughtlessness. You know, "why would we have to think of you lot?"
I: So, do you think your male colleagues in Interior Design allied themselves more with the Joiners, the Painters and the Carpenters in, I'm thinking in terms of...
R: No. I think once they got to know you, there were, I would say of the Design Department there were maybe a couple of men who were really not very nice to me and continued to upset me throughout my career in STV but, you know, they had their own issues and it was maybe easier to express them to me! However, I was not mature enough! You know, I didn't have that sort of experience of being treated like that because I'd been to a school we all went to, I went to Art School. There was never any sexism. I'd worked at Uni, for goodness sake, that was a great place to work! And then I land in a pretty sexist environment but, you know, you just learned to live with it really and if people were really, really, really horrible to you, you just went home and cried!
I: So...
R: Joe Miller comes to mind!
[14:47]
I: How did your own career then develop within Interior Design from those early days? Were you able to...?
R: What was the best thing was you learned on the job and I assisted Designers on big jobs like I assisted on, I was the Design Assistant or Assistant Design, whatever you want to call it, on the first Taggart so you were working on Dramas with the Designer and you learned how, and what was good about it, because you were working with lots of different Designers, you learned how to do it but also how not to do it which was great. And as you, you know, I think as my competence and confidence grew, I mean Peter was very good. He did give me jobs. Well, Ken the other youngster, we got jobs. You know, "Oh, Judy can do this!" or whatever. But one of the best things to learn was that I worked on Take the High Road and, again, that was such a good discipline! Because you just had to get your head down, you just had to get through it and you had to be really well organised whilst being also having time to be creative as well. And for me that was just the most perfect way to learn your job and not just as a Designer, all the other disciplines. Because the, sort of, philosophy in STV was 'actually, it doesn't matter if Judy makes a mess because nobody really watches it anyway!' You know, or the camera shots aren't really right or the sound's a bit soft. You know, it was a great learning procedure or process.
I: And did you find that you needed different sets of skills say, for a studio-based production than going outside on location with a Drama?
R: Oh yeah! Yeah, yeah.
I: There would be a range of different skills?
R: Yep. I mean, you know, you did Current Affairs, Religion, Drama and Light Entertainment and they all demanded different skills. Now, looking back, it was, the Religious Department did a lot of programmes and, to be honest, none of the other Designers really wanted to do them because they weren't - and that was another great learning curve and Nelson Gray, who was the Head of the Department, was really up for doing something different! I mean, he was quite open-minded so yeah, you put a different hat on when you worked on each different...and, you know, the process was you had a meeting with the Producer/Director. Producer and Director and you discussed (or a planning meeting really) and you discussed the, what the core values of the programme were, and what they wanted it to look like and what audience they were looking to. You know, I remember doing House Calls, for instance, and it was a religious discussion programme so we got people from, you know, the Jewish community and they discussed or they got people from, you know, the Catholic and it was just a really good, but it was aimed at a 50+ audience. It was like Dralon couches and sort of very soft and pink or beige or something like that! You know so each programme we worked on had a unique challenge and the joy of the job was that every job was different. Even though you were, the process was maybe slightly similar but it was all different and also, you were working with different personalities and I do have to say that, you know, when you are in a creative you kind of need to mould with people so there were some jobs that you kind of rubbed your hands with glee and thought, 'this is going to be great because I can relate to the person!' And there were other jobs where you were thinking, 'I don't quite know how this is going to work!' because the other person's thinking, 'Oh, she's just a wee lassie!' You know. However, the wee lassie was going to work very hard because I was as keen as flipping mustard!
I: Did you find that other young women were coming in over the years as well?
R: Yes, I think that looking back on it, I think that sort of 1980s or 1980 franchise when there was that 'let's bring more...' and once you have more women in and actually, surprise, surprise, we turned out to be very competent and creative! Brought things in under budget and all that sort of stuff. I think that, sort of, it was good because other women could see that that could happen and Management could, I mean, I remember Liz Moriarty used to say to the P.A.s [Production Assistants] "You're a wife without the sex!" That was the kind of, and that was a woman!
I: That was a woman!
R: Yeah. And that was the kind of attitude there was and I was just so glad I wasn't a P.A.!
I: But then was there a sense of, I mean any production has to be a team-based exercise for it to be successful, were you conscious of that as being part of a team? Or did you find that because you were maybe the only woman on the team you felt, you maybe didn't feel part of the team?
R: I think, I always felt if my boys (and that's a very sexist thing to say) if I got on with my Stage Crew and my Joiners and Painters I had my team and actually, I didn't really mind how anybody else treated me. As long as, and it was great because people did begin to respect me, you know, once I proved that I wasn't a complete idiot and treated people with respect! However, it did take a few years and I remember one particular man who shall remain absolutely nameless - in fact there were a few of them up at Balmore - and when I was expecting Hannah, you know I had a bump and I went up to Balmore and the attitude towards me changed! It was the weirdest thing! It was like, "Oh, you are human! You're pregnant!"
[21:44]
I: Balmore? Was that where the workshop was?
R: Yeah.
I: Yes. Where they keep the scene…..
R: What they did was, they built Balmore workshop which was one of the best places STV ever created! It was an industrial unit up past Maryhill and they had, and it would be great to try and get a Joiner or a Painter to come and be interviewed because they had a full complement of Joiners, Scenic Joiners and a full complement of Scenic Painters, the Construction Manager, Jack Stevenson, who was lovely, and Phil, who used to walk about with a broom and take the lines to the bookies at lunchtime! And it worked really, I mean, they built brilliant sets! They knew their onions! I mean, they could be quite difficult to work with! I had one instance on Take the High Road where it was, who's the Director? Oh, the name will come back to me. Anyway, we were out on location and it was a Monday morning and the production, the buyer and I hadn't gone out first thing in the morning because we'd stuff to do and out we went to location and nobody would look at me! Nobody would speak to me until the Director (he was so annoyed!) - "Judy! How could you do that?!! How could you do that?!! I mean, how could you make such a mistake?!!" And I'm, like, I've no idea what the mistake was and it was a car crash so we had, you know, like a blue car and then we'd got a ringer and it had to be painted blue so I had given the paint reference to the Painter and that was on the Friday. "Aye, aye, we'll do it over the weekend." And he painted it the wrong colour! So, I mean, what do you say? It was my responsibility and I had to stand up and I came back and, of course, I was so, so angry and I went to my boss and I said, "This is what I specified. This is the colour of the car - they match!" And I had photographs of one van and the wrong van and I said, "Look!" and I said who did it and he said, "Oh well," you know, "that's just..." There was no discipline, disciplinary action taken. You know? Which was wrong. Absolutely wrong.
I: Yes so you didn't feel you were getting the support and the backing?
R: Absolutely not. Absolutely not and he, the man, and I'm sure other people would say that other things like that happened but, you know, that was the sort of thing that you had to put up with and there were a number of things that happened! That's what, I'm not going to relate any more.
I: How - or did - budgets and Production finance impact on the work that you did? I mean, were there some things that if the budget was generous you could create your own design or...?
R: Oh, absolutely! Absolutely! It was just, and also, in the early days, I remember being Pip Gardener's assistant and he was doing a Chat Show in Edinburgh and I was the Assistant and it went enormously over budget and Pip was very cynical! He was a lovely, lovely guy, well, he is a lovely guy, he is still with us. And he said, "Judy, it's fine! See, if the show's a success it doesn't matter if it goes over budget." Jim McCann, he was the Director and I can't remember, Robert will maybe bring in who the show backed, I can't remember anyway. But he always said, you know, as long as it gets good ratings it doesn't really matter whether you go over budget which in, that was in the good old days and then they brought in that sort of layer of production manager /production controller who would phone you up and say, "You've spent five thousand pounds today, Judy", so if you spend five thousand pounds every day for the next, till you go into Studio, you'll be, I don't know, whatever over budget but it doesn't work like that, you know?!
[26:25]
I: So, you would have to, sort of, match your creativity and what you wanted to do with the resources that you knew you could get?
R: Oh, absolutely! Well, what happened, I mean it was a brilliant system! What happened was they decided, Right, Judy's doing the Hogmanay show so you've got a physical budget, you know, like a cash budget of tuppence ha'penny or whatever it was and you've got three hundred Joiners' hours and three hundred Painters' hours so, if you had a Hogmanay show with a hundred Joiners and a hundred Painters, you knew, well it was two flats if you were lucky but, you know, it was really, I mean, it was a system that worked! That's what was so sad when it all fell apart because you got your slip of paper and you knew exactly the size of production you were working on by how many Joiners and Painters you got.
I: OK. So, you mentioned when it all fell apart. How did it fall apart? Was it when they changed the whole Production financing mechanism?
R: I would say it fell apart when they decided to bring in Producer Choice. Prior to that, what happened was there was a Management structure and the Management structure decided that, you know, Janet would be the Producer, Robert would be the Director and Judy would be the Designer and you muddled through and you made, you know, you became a team whereas then what started to happen was, well, Janet's the Producer and she can choose whoever she wants and so suddenly it became a sort of popularity, sort of, contest, I think, and I think that sort of cronyism kind of came in, which I don't think was entirely healthy. And when was that? Well, it would have been before I left STV. So, what, the late eighties? Yeah, is that right, Robert?
I: So you'd been in maybe ten years anyway?
R: Yes.
I: So, were you progressing up through the...?
R: I was, yeah. I started as an Assistant Designer and I became a Designer and you got a telly! You got a telly delivered and they paid the rental for you. You got First Class rail travel and you got all these perks and it was great and you 1C4, which was an extra percentage on your salary in case you had to work any overtime which you did, willing, because you were into the production! However, when you had downtime, you skived! You know, well, not really skived but eatsy peatsy really. So, yes, I was made Designer and I think had the system not changed - there was Assistant Designer and Designer and then Senior Designer I suppose and Peter always said before he retired, "Oh, it's my one regret that I couldn't get you to be a Senior Designer!" Because, by that time, I think they'd maybe decided that they were just going to get rid of us all and bring in Freelancers so there was no point.
I: Oh right! Is that what happened? Is that why you parted company with STV?
R: Yes. They shut the Design Department down.
I: And just went to buying in Freelance?
R: Well, it's a weird thing because I was made redundant by Ron, whatever his name was, and he sat me down and he said, "Well, you know, it's just like this. You know, there's a shop and, you know, there's tins that are and packets of biscuits that have got their sell-by-date past!"
I: Geezo! And this was when?!
R: 19'..., well, Kit is twenty-five and so it was just after I went back to work after I had had Kit so you can absolutely understand how, actually I can feel myself getting upset even thinking about it! So, fortunately I went, I mean I was in bits! I mean, how dare, how dare...?!
I: Yes!
R: 'Cause what they did was, they got rid of me at whatever I was earning and brought a wee lassie in for ten thousand and fortunately my husband, my wonderful silver fox of a husband, who was in Personnel, and the next meeting I had with Ron, I wasn't on the couch and he was at a desk for a start, you know. Michael gave me this book to read and I read it and we worked away and I always had a Designer Black Book, that was my sketchbook, and a pencil and I went in with my sketchbook and pencil and he said, "Oh, sit down" and I said, "No, no, let's sit at the conference table" so we sat eye to eye and I opened my Black Book and I went through all these things and I said, "I expect you to do this and I expect you to do that", you know, blah-di-blah-di-dah and, you know, I got most of them! And it was just, he was, like, rabbit caught in the headlight! Somebody should go in and look at him, straight in the eye, and say "You won't treat me this way!" You know, "If I've got to go, I expect..." You know, how dare he, you know! It makes me irate and indignant even now, after twenty-five years on!
I: When you were pregnant did you, was there a problem with maternity and even returning or was the Company OK with that?
R: It was funny because Katie Hayworth was a prop buyer and when I announced, no, she has four children and when I announced I was expecting number three, she had, she had on her wee face, oh! So, a couple of months later she said, "I'm pregnant again." So she was having number four and we always laughed that I was made redundant in case I had another one! You know, so that they would have to give me another six months off!
I: Do you think, I mean, do you think there was any merit in that or do you think it was just an unfortunate coincidence of timing? You know, difficult to say. [33:06] So, you were kind of cast out? So, did you then enter the Freelance industry?
R: I did. I left with a very, very, very bitter taste in my mouth, you know, and it took me a long time to get over it. However, I was so lucky because I immediately started to work for Grampian and it just, because they were in Aberdeen it was great! Bob, my Producer/Director would come down to Glasgow or I would go up to Aberdeen and I could work from home, you know, I mean my, Kit, he would have been about a year, Don would have been - I had three in four years so they were very close together so it was great being able to work at home, basically!
I: Yes. Before you went to Freelance, had you been aware of your colleagues out in the Freelance world in the early 1980s?
R: No. No.
I: Because when you worked, so when you worked for STV it was almost like you were in this bubble that was just STV?
R: Yes. Absolutely.
I: And had you become a, had you joined the Union in STV?
R: Oh yes! I joined the Union in, I mean, I'm a, I've only just retired, I've only just left it actually!
I: So, that would have been ACTT? [The Association of Cinematograph, Television and Allied Technicians]
R: Yes, ACTT.
I: So, when you went Freelance, you were part of the Freelance branch of ACTT?
R: Yes, and then it became BECTU. [Broadcasting Entertainment Cinematograph and Technicians Union then Broadcasting Entertainment Cinematograph and Theatre Union]
I: Right and then I'm interested to see and did you find that you were, you had fellow Designers in the Freelance sector? There would be a lot of, were there a lot of them in there or were they having the same kind of issues do you think?
R: It was a, being a Designer in the Freelance sector was an interesting prospect because we didn't really talk to one another as did, because you were maybe up against one another for jobs so there wasn't, and I always regretted that that there wasn't a sort of community of Designers and the sad thing is that I was taught and learned by osmosis by working with other Designers and observing the way they were behaving and their level of expertise or not but in a Freelance situation youngsters don't get that because everybody's kind of keeping mum because you'll come in and say, "Well, I'll do it for a wee bit less!"
I: Yes, so it was a wee bit more cut-throat being in Freelance?
R: Well, I think so. I was kind of very lucky. I had three children and I didn't really want to be doing big Drama jobs and that's the sad thing about Drama is that a lot of, once you get to a certain age you can't really do it. If you've got kids or aged parents or whatever, you know, you have to say just, well, that time in my life is past.
I: When you were with STV, did you go home at night and watch television? Did you watch the things that you'd worked on? What was your reaction to it, can you remember?
R: Well, I remember Anne Hamilton. She was the Make-Up, Head of Make-Up Department and she was quite a feisty wee woman and we were, I was a hippie, art student and we didn't have a telly until STV gave us one because we'd nae money, you know! And I was, we were sitting, because there was, when I got my job they took people into Wardrobe and Make-Up as well so there was intake, if you like. And she was saying, "Well, I wouldn't have given anybody the job if they didn't have a telly!" And I am thinking, 'Oh, don't go and tell Peter that I don't have a telly!!' But yeah, I mean, you do, because when you watch things what you remember is the laughs. You know, the good times and the bad. You know, we've been sort of doing the bad times but I was thinking of, I did House on the Hill with Pip as the Designer and he'd left me, he and Alex were going to do, "You'll be fine, Judy, there's no problem!" And Joe Logan had provided the Necropolis and Joe Logan had provided all these wreaths and we'd dug out the, we'd got all the people in the Necropolis to dig out the grave and it had to be a bigger, a bigger hole because the box was much, you know, the coffin was much bigger, you know, the hearse and all that. And it was horses and it was the hottest day of the year so all these, you know, all these wreaths had been laid and it was Clive Woods and who was the lovely Cameraman that...?
Robert: Harry Bridges.
R: Oh, Harry Bridges. And I was kind of standing there and it was, I had a really nice crew who were my age. They weren't the grumpy, old stage crew so we had such a good day and we didn't know how to get the wreaths back down from the top of the Necropolis so every car (because we had, like, about a hundred and fifty wreaths) and I remember Harry, "Oh, Judy, put them in..." because they had these really big, swanky camera cars, and, no, I can't remember what they were but they were dead long and so we were, "Oh, no, we can't...!" and then he said, "Oh well, if I'm...", (he was a mischievous man!) "...if I'm moving all these wreaths then you've got to come with me!" So, Clive and Harry and I were all squished into the front of this car and so we went to this pub. I mean, it's ridiculous now, nobody drinks and drives or drinks and works but we went into this pub and it was so hot and everybody was sweating, and we'll just have a pint of beer. I've never drunk a pint of beer in my life and he said, "Just you drink it, pet, you'll be fine!" Glug! Glug! Glug! And I drank the whole thing!! But you know, you just think that would never, ever happen now!!
I: Yeah.
R: You know. And it was just, we had so many good laughs! Take the High Road was one. We were up, again I was assisting Jack Robinson and it was snowing and we were at the Youth Hostel at Luss and the Youth Hostel was up high and there was a field so, of course, all of us youngsters - "Well, we could sledge down here!" So they went away and they found an old car door! I mean we were supposed to be working! We found an old car door so we were taking turns going down this, the front, and I always remember Jack and he jigged over, "Oh, I'll have a shot!" And I don't know how old Jack would have been then. In his fifties and he was an alcoholic. I mean, "Oh my God, he's going to die! He's going to fall off this door and we're all going to be responsible!" But you know, it was just, that's what it was! It was just, you know, there were a lot of good times as well as, you know, the bad.
[40:22]
I: So, looking back on all the various productions that you designed for STV, is there anything in particular that you think you are quite proud of, "Yes, I did that!"
R: I don't even have to think about it. The biggest production I worked on was called Fun House and prior to that I'd done The Disney Club and it was almost like nobody else really wanted to take these on because they were new and, kind of, you'd have to work quite hard. So, the Fun House game show format, if that's the right word, description, came from a company in Los Angeles (L.A.), so Sandy Ross, who was Head of whatever, Entertainment I suppose, he said, "Well, Judy, I think, if you're going to do it," and it was great because I think Gus was quite, Gus Macdonald, I don't think any of the other Designers would have wanted to do it because it was nine months. I mean it was nine months out of my life basically but Gus was quite up for somebody young and, you know, could be female, I don't know! He was good at encouraging women up the ladder. Anyway, so Sandy said, "Oh well, I think we should go to L.A. and see it!" So I said, "Oh, well, yeah!!!" You know! So I went home and said, "Michael, pinch me! I can't believe I'm going to get to go to L.A.!" So then Sandy said, "You know what, you can, I'll give you the choice. You can travel First Class to L.A. or you can travel normal class and spend the difference on Michael coming out." So, I said, "Oh, I think the second option." So, Sandy, I think he went out first and I travelled out and we stayed in Hollywood's, some big Hollywood Hilton which Dermot McQuarrie had got us an upgrade because only Dermot would know and for some reason we got this upgrade and there was fruit in the room and it was fabulous! And I remember going down in the lift and I was, you know, a zip up the back, and we were going down in the lift to the car and there were these absolutely gorgeous, really, really glamorous women in the lift and I was saying to Sandy, "God! Look at those women! Aren't they glamorous?!" And he's going, "Judy, they're hookers!"
So we, Sandy and I went to the Studio and watched Fun House being made in Studio in L.A. for, like, a week and I met all the crew and just learned how it all operated. Now, STV, I mean I remember saying to Sandy. "STV does not know what's going to hit it." I mean they had no idea the scale of the production and of course, for me, I was about twenty-eight I think and it was like I'd died and gone to heaven! You know, I was ready for the challenge! I was up for it and I thought, 'oh my God, I can do this much better!' because it was all sort of cable ties and gaffer tape in L.A. but the one thing about it, the entire crew were gorgeous. They were all absolutely gorgeous and I was saying to Sandy, "Look at all those Stagehands! Look at all these camera guys, they are just, you know, like...", it was great!
So, home we came to Glasgow and we decided that, yes, we would go ahead and I was the Designer and, of course, I like a story. Entertainment's a lot different from Drama because in Drama you can, you know, you've got, Drama has a character and you give her a back story and you kind of work out what her house would look like, you know, or what her car would be and all that sort of stuff but with Entertainment it's like blue-sky thinking. You know, waah! So, I came up with this whole scenario and to be honest I can't remember the story but you know, there was a snowy bit and there was a mountainous bit and there was a revolving bit and all that sort of stuff but literally they had never, they hadn't conceived in what a big production it was! It was the entirety of Studio A and we had a revolving, a great big, oh my goodness, the technical issues with this! We had a Perspex tube that revolved and it was the highest level and it was over the Studio floor and the kids had to climb their way through it. I don't have a head for heights and I don't think I actually ever went through it but we had to have the fairs, the Health and Safety people, when it was all built, had to come in and go round it and the Health and Safety guy ripped his trousers! I don't know what he got his trousers on and I was standing there and my heart was in my mouth because the budget was £250,000 and that was - Hannah was born in 1990 so that would have been 1988/89 - so that was a lot of money and that was just the Design budget let alone everything else! So we, the set, what they did was, they did games and then whoever won went round the Fun House and they got all sorts of presents and the bottle but one team was Red and one team was Yellow so, if you were doing something yellow ducks so there had to be forty yellow ducks and forty red ducks and the poor Painters were out the back of the scene dock painting the ducks red, painting the ducks, or painting the hens. You know, we'd get red hens and they had to be painted yellow, you know, such good fun! I used to walk down and I had a favourite Painter. Henry, oh he had such a good sense of humour and I would go "Hen-ry!" and all I could hear was "Ju-dy!" And we had to make gunge! Everything was gunge-filled and Ron (och, that's terrible!), Ron was the standby, he was the standby Props guy so we got a cement mixer to make the gunge and we made them in galvie buckets, like a kind of jelly stuff. I think the next year we had to be a bit more Health and Safety but it was just great fun!
And, at the end of it, we did a, they had Linda Lusardi and she was presenting it and it was an adult version, which was an absolute, it was an absolute hoot! And they had the lady from Take the High Road, lovely Eileen McCallum and she's dressed up as her character in Take the High Road and she'd always a wee fancy for John Paton, the Stagehand for us, so at the end of it we made all, they'd all had a few drinks in order to do all these stupid games, you know, so at the end of it Eileen, she's done up as Mrs whoever it was, no, it was Mrs Mack, I bet, Mrs Mack, that actress. Eileen, forgive me! Mrs Mack. So, Mrs Mack's chasing John Paton round the, and it's so funny and they got Morag Torbet and they put her in a bath of gunk and I remember because I had long hair and I'd put it in, you know when it was dead frizzy long, like the eighties, that mad style? Anyway, they put me, no, they didn't, I said, "You put me in that bath, you're dead, mate!" So, what they did, they pelted me with custard pies and I was covered in it so it was just, you know, when I look back on it we're talking about the, kind of, perhaps, there were too many issues but it was a great career! I just, I, there were great times and we had a lot of laughs, you know!
I: Yes.
R: And a lot of bonding.
[49:12]
I: Yes, so although you may have had issues with some of your colleagues, but, in other terms, it was a great company to work for?
R: Oh yeah! Yeah, yeah and the thing is, the colleagues that you had issues with, it was just best to avoid. I will tell you one issue which was truly shocking! I was, Joe Miller, I will name him and shame him! He was, for some reason, became Head of Design! How that happened is anybody's guess! And I was pregnant with, it doesn't matter which baby, and I was kind of showing and they had decided to make the Design Department open-plan and when you're doing a set of complicated technical drawings you need peace and quiet. Well, I do and I can't, well I couldn't concentrate with people on the phone, music, chatting away, so I always worked from home and in my office at the drawing board I did my technical drawings. So, I met Joe in the canteen and I said, "Oh Joe, just to say, I'll be off for the next couple of days, if that's OK, because I've got drawings to do for whatever production." Well, he lambasted me in front of the entire canteen - "No, hen, no, you don't dae that! You know, that's just you skiving!" So, by the time he'd finished my lip was going like this. I was pregnant. My hormones were all over the place and my lip was going like this so I walked from the canteen way, way along to the Design Department and the tears, got my jacket on and my handbag and all the way out of the, if you think about it - how dare he! All the way out of the building. All the way down Hope Street, onto the train, all the way on the train, bubbling, you know, with the indignity of being... you know, I was a really experienced Designer by this time! And I knew a lot more than he did! And Michael collected me from the station, I think, and, of course, he was really worried about me because I was in bits, you know! And that happened a lot!
I: But you were able to get past that and develop a good relationship with other colleagues?
R: Oh yeah! Yeah, yeah, yeah! I mean, there was just, there were just certain misogynists in the building.
I: Yes.
R: Another thing is, Lent was always a good time to make programmes actually because people didn't drink. It was great, you know! And I remember doing a Hogmanay show and it was so easy-going so you did a tech-rec in the morning, you know, and we would be frittering about fixing stuff and then you would have lunch and everybody went to the pub and then we came back and we did a dress rehearsal or a sound-check and then you finished about, I don't know, six or something like that and everybody went back to the pub and then they brought the audience in and I was a young Designer at this point and you know, I wasn't, obviously, drinking because I was in charge and I came back in and I was walking about and my Painters came back and, actually, it was the same Painter who painted the van the wrong colour so, you know, by this time we'd a bit of history and, of course, they were legless! They could hardly speak, the pair of them, so we became the entertainment as I was trying to negotiate them gently out of the Studio and, you know, so things like that happened! I remember, do you remember Joe Green, the Stagehand? I don't remember if that was the same Hogmanay show, she was locked in the cupboard! So, right, Joe, he was such a nice, he was a lovely, lovely guy but he just drank too much! And he came back so we just locked him in somebody's office! "You'll be fine! Just you sit down and sleep it off!" You know!
I: So, I mean, that's obviously, I mean, that sounds like it was part of the culture in the early days I would imagine?
R: It was.
I: Later on you would find there was less of that.
R: Oh my goodness, yes! I mean, it would never be contemplated now.
[53:55]
I: When you joined STV around about 1980 it was just before Gus Macdonald and Sandy Ross came up and I think there was, we were talking to Sandy Ross yesterday about it and there was a sense of...
R: Oh! How's he doing?!! Sorry!
I: ...refreshing...
R: Yes, oh my goodness, yes!
I: ...the image of STV, take it away, Thingummyjig and all the rest of it.
R: Yes. Ah ha.
I: Bringing it more into the [inaudible] Were you at all conscious of that because [inaudible]?
R: Oh God, yeah! Yeah, yeah. I did, yes, Thingummyjig and all that. And I did the, and it was great because when I think back it was just fantastic. I did the Festival programme three or four times in a row. And one of the years it was, I don't know which year it would be, it was the anniversary of the Russian Revolution and I'd come up, I mean it was just, I have to say, I designed it and it was a great set! In the middle of the set I put the Red Square and we put Lenin's tomb behind it and covered everything in red Gladioli and it was blue and it was just, it was so off-the-wall creative! Acropolis Now, that's what the show was called. I remember the year before I did it with columns and everybody sat and it was such good fun! And I think once they realised I was quite creative, they kind of gave me, and what was great about Gus was at that point STV hadn't put any shows into for awards because they weren't networked and he said that, I think that show's called Acropolis Now even though it was the red...you know, he put me forward! Well, not me, but the show as a production, forward at that time and I thought, you know, 'that's really good!' You know, he was, I mean I liked him and I did a lot of really good stuff for, you know, for him. I did another one - the BAFTA award. I was, again, quite pregnant and that was with Don and it was Studio A with a big budget and I could have as many Joiner/Painter hours and, you know, when I think back on it, it was just great. I was just given an empty sketchbook - "Oh, Judy, just go and do it!" And as long as they liked what I came up with, it was fine! You know, it was just a Designer's dream really in creativity terms.
I: Yes. So, do you feel that, in a sense, if we look back on the kind of image of Scottish Television had in the seventies, very much...
R: Couthy. Couthy.
I: Do you feel, can you take pride in contributing to that shift in format?
R: Oh yes. Definitely. Definitely. And, you know, people always denigrate STV and you look at what's on telly now and we actually did, you know, the Production values were very high and it was a very professional organisation but there was always that wee chip on our shoulder because we weren't the BBC, you know, which was ridiculous actually, looking back on it and that whole, House on the Hill, was the first one, I would have said, Robert, of the Dramas that kind of dragged us out of the kind of couthiness. And then, of course, Taggart, that was really, really ground-breaking stuff. [57:50] But they also did, which was fabulous, they did a series and I worked on them and I suppose Robert would have, we all worked on them and they were like one-off Dramas. Half-hour Dramas and all the learners got a chance. Like the writers were people that you see now, credits.
Robert: Was it not Preview?
R: Preview!! Oh, well done!! And, you know, when you got a Preview, you were thinking this is great! Like, I did one with Gregor Fisher in it and, you know, we were all the same age and young and full of enthusiasm, and, you know, that was such a good learning experience because you could make mistakes and nobody was castigating you because they kind of thought, 'nobody's going to watch these anyway!' You know? But the Production values were high, I think, and we all rose to the, you know, I mean, "You're getting a Drama to do this! This is the most exciting thing that's happened to me!" You know, there was that spirit of we're young, we're full of energy, we're going to do a good job! And we did!
I: Yes, so I mean there was the skill and the talent evidently.
R: Absolutely.
I: You could have done stuff for the Network, it was just that the ITV system just worked against STV getting its programmes...
R: Yes, probably.
I: In terms of the quality of Productions - Network standard.
R: I would have said so. I would have said do and, you know, when you got a good show to do people worked hard, you know, and appreciated the sort of, I mean, being a set-designer is just the most, it's, I loved it! I loved every, I mean, I know I've been talking about the bad bits but outweighing that was just the creativity of it! You know, being given a job to do and you go home and think 'how am I going to do this?!' And, of course, now everybody would be online. I used to go to the Art School library and just wander about and lift books out and think, 'oh' or think of a theme and just go, but there was time then because you had this, as well as your schedule and all that there was a nice lead-in time so there was time for reflection, time for development. I did one fabulous wee job with, he was a Cameraman who turned to be a Director. Quite religious. Lovely guy.
Robert: Excuse me. John MacDonald.
R: The very man! Lovely!
I: John MacDonald.
R: John MacDonald. And we did this, it was, I'm sure they still sell it! I'm sure it's still, it was called, I think the programme was called A Wall to Bethlehem Toun and it was kids singing in a Christmas setting and John said, "You know, I don't really know what I want! I don't think I want rostra. I don't think I want, you know, a choir per se." I did this - I mean, how I got away with it, I will never know! I really liked Gertrude Jekyll, the Garden Designer, and, I'm sorry, I'm having a mental pausal moment, I can't remember the Architect that she worked with! I loved his architecture so I thought, 'You know what? I'll just go and get a book out of the library!' So, I'm looking at Gertrude Jekyll and the design, the Architect, so I came up with all these ideas and, you know, we can get a camera through there and arches and all that and different tiles and it would all be snowing and John said, "That'll do!" and we built it! And it was just the most exciting and what was really heartening about it was, Balmore looked at the drawings and thought, 'Oh, ho, ho! This is going to be good fun!' So, they got, they invested in the creativity of it which was just and see when you get that everybody singing from the same song sheet, it's the most exciting thing you can do and, you know, you've got an empty Studio and the boys are buckling up their belts to stop their sore backs and they're talking about the football and all that and in they come with all these flats and the Lighting Director, "Oh no, you can't come in! I'm still doing the rigging!" There's all that banter and, you know, there's a pile of stuff and it all just begins to take shape and, you know, what was in your head, on a sketchbook, in a great big set of technical drawings, is now a physical actuality! And it's just the most amazing process! And, I mean, at the end of it and we were so, you know, and it was a process that we all took for granted because you were doing it all the time. It's different when you're Freelance because you do a lot of shitty wee jobs in between the big, the nice jobs but at that point in STV, they were really turning over, those Studios were constantly being used, you know, so you were constantly working on new productions. I mean, probably most of them are pretty forgettable but, you know, I mean your creative juices were constantly, it was great!
I: I think that would be a really good point in which to...
R: Absolutely. Thank you! Thank you!
I: Unless there's anything else you wish to...
R: I just wish, I just hope I can remember the name of that Sound guy!
I: But your description of basically, you know, the build up. Your description of the whole thing coming together and with great satisfaction and that's why you did this job.
R: Oh yes, it was just...! Wasn't it, Robert?!
I: Well, thank you very much!
R: Oh, my pleasure! Thank you! I hope I haven't chatted on too long!
I: Not at all! No, that's absolutely great!
R: And I hope it wasn't too negative, you know, when you start to think about it those things come out!
I: Yes!
[64:05]
[End of Recording]
