Hazel Allen (with Daphne Shadwell, Joan Winter/Oldfield and Sheila Shadwell)

Family name: 
Work area/craft/role: 
Interview Number: 
Interview Date(s): 
15 Jun 1989

Horizontal tabs

Interview notes

see also #194. 


BEHP transcript Disclaimer

This transcript has been produced automatically using Otter, https://get.otter.ai/interview-transcription/.

It provides a basic, but unverified or proofread transcript of the interview. Therefore, the British Entertainment History Project (BEHP) accepts no liability for any misinterpretation of the content of this interview.

However, the BEHP wants to make every effort to improve the quality of these transcripts and would welcome any voluntary offers to proofread this and/or other interviews. If you want to help, please contact BEHP Secretary,  sue.malden@btinternet.com.

Unknown Speaker  0:10  
comedy on video, we,

Unknown Speaker  0:12  
 the copyright of this recording is invested in the actt History Project more rights are reserved. We're here today on the I've gotten a register 15th of June 1989. In john and Daphne Hamilton's flat in in Paddington with the four Shadwell sisters, the daughters of Charles Shadwell. And it's about him will start speaking, selecting members, right now we'll start as early as we can about him the year that he was born who's going to

Unknown Speaker  0:45  
need 1898? Right.

Unknown Speaker  0:48  
Okay. And what do you know of his early his youth and where he grew up, right?

Unknown Speaker  0:56  
He went to St. Peter's school, a public school in New York. He was born in New York, he was no he was born. And Caspian mother g Don, and sorry. God, woman, God woman, he was born God, oh my God, sorry. And he was some piece of school. And then when he was 15 years of age, his father was a doctor in the army captain. And the war broke out. And although he was only 15, just over 15, he lied about his age and joined the army and was served with the Royal Yorkshire regiment is that the full title.

Unknown Speaker  1:41  
And he was supposed to the plans were as his father was a doctor, he also was going to go in for medicine and go to Oxford. But he couldn't stand the sight of blood, which was a little bit against the medicine. His father was also very, very keen on music was a musician loved music. And he obviously took that side of the family rather than the medical side. And after the war, went to the Royal Academy of Music, anybody else like to take

Unknown Speaker  2:13  
managed to do that because my mother took a job as a secretary to I forgotten I know his name is Martin. And it was a theatre group before the still theatres and the mass empires. And she worked for him to enable better to go to to the Royal Academy. And also I was I had come along so she had made to look after as well. So that is how he managed to get through that. And then when he was in there, just coming out of the Royal Academy, a friend of his brand story, managed to get him an odd date, as they will say, for the Duchess of Devon show and the Prince of Wales are going to be there. And for him to go and play the piano. And he couldn't he didn't have the fare. So he walked to Park Lane from partner dissed the night when played for them was a little orchestra for the for them to dance. And they could not finish until the Prince of Wales decided that he didn't want to dance any longer. And finally he had to go to the bathroom. It was then the Duchess or devinci restaurant everyone said Quick, quick, everybody good night. And she did not pay him. She said I'll send you a check. And he had to walk all the way home again to Putney. Six o'clock in the morning Hillsborough, also borrowed Brian brown shoes. And he wore them out completely, as they were very cheap one. So he had no shoes to give brand back and no money until they got the check. And that was his first introduction as a show business. And from there he went. He went into what they would call touring reviews. And he would he came to conduct a

Unknown Speaker  4:08  
couple of questions. The year of that incident, do you have any ideas?

Unknown Speaker  4:12  
About 1923 2223 something?

Unknown Speaker  4:16  
Now your chief aim subsequently as a conductor, but what did you study at the Royal Academy of Music?

Unknown Speaker  4:21  
We had piano violin and Odin

Unknown Speaker  4:24  
Did you have a favourite ministry?

Unknown Speaker  4:27  
composition? We did Oh,

Unknown Speaker  4:33  
it's all going very much because this sort of subsidiary

Unknown Speaker  4:36  
interpolate into matches where film orientated union to some degree. I mean the history project. They played in cinemas video not

Unknown Speaker  4:47  
a cinema. Yes. That was another fund.

Unknown Speaker  4:52  
That was for money.

Unknown Speaker  4:54  
Yeah, he was still in college when he was still at the college and he got this job and he was very much into, of course, beautiful playing and everything will note perfect. And he was playing sounded like Schubert something or other and the little trapdoor opened beside the organ and the manager said he had golf. What do you think you're doing is ever look and see what's going on in the screen. And he said follow it. So I looked up, and it was Charlie Chaplin doing that thing. Then he looked and he had to sit and play this way, solidly and I had a little lamb, the little DVD at the end, he was like this. And when he finished, he had to come home. He couldn't get his head down.

Unknown Speaker  5:45  
There was a tenuous connection with the cinema.

Unknown Speaker  5:48  
Yes, he did tell one story how I got this right. And he was playing at the cinema. And it was quite a regular job. I think he and one day look around and there was an old man asleep and a dog gazing at the screen.

Unknown Speaker  6:05  
Cinema already worked out was it just one local cinema were

Unknown Speaker  6:12  
totally, always made me laugh with was when he said he was playing. I think it probably was, I don't know, it was a cinema or in a theatre, but he actually had to come and play. And my mother was in the audience and was horrified because he left his hat on because the more hat and he just turned and she was pointing to himself. And he was just waving back

Unknown Speaker  6:43  
from the Jewish cinema.

Unknown Speaker  6:45  
Remember, one story told us about when he was first started working. I'm sure the girls will put it right because I don't remember all of it. He they had a date with a small orchestra that he was leading. And when they got there, they had to sit in a strange part of the ballroom and they were surrounded by screens and potted plants and things and they didn't see anything that was going on at all. And eventually one of the fiddle players was fiddling with a small hole in the in the screen. And the fiddle fiddle, Vinnie was putting his bow through it. And my father said, Wait a minute. And the music got quieter and quieter because he made the hole big enough to look through and he was calling you to the boys over so that it became not an orchestra playing but Solo is because as it was a new discovery, they were having a down. story became the smallest orchestra ever heard. But he didn't get paid for that.

Unknown Speaker  7:47  
Any other the anecdotes.

Unknown Speaker  7:52  
I remember one about the army when he was a very young man. And he was very surreal because if only he lied, and he was only 16 by them or something. He'd only been in the army a week when he caught scarlet fever or measles or something. So he didn't report to where he should have reported. Do you remember? Yes. And eventually his father cleared him and said you're clear you can go back so he reported for duty, the Adjutant said to him and said Where have you been? He said, I've been else. As I had scarlet fever and a catching contagious disease. I assumed I should not turn up is it in your in the army now? Shadwell, you assume nothing, you're on a charge whatever

Unknown Speaker  8:30  
it wants.

Unknown Speaker  8:32  
But he was so thrilled because he got his uniform eventually, as he was supposed to do whatever it was. And he was coming home to York and his family were coming to meet him and friends. And he was so excited in his uniform. And he arranged himself at the window, got his hat at the right angle and the elbow on there and already stepped up his hand on his side and Sam Brown. And they opened the carrier's door like Charlie Oh, whoa. And he'd forgotten about his sword straight across the doorway. So he fell straight out. He damaged himself

Unknown Speaker  9:08  
into the Yorker's anyway.

Unknown Speaker  9:13  
That's got nothing to do with the cinema. No.

Unknown Speaker  9:17  
Do you serve in front of

Unknown Speaker  9:20  
the story? I was a man because he was telling me about the explosion. He was actually buried alive. And he said if it wasn't for sergeant, who dug him out. He would not be alive today, today. But I was very small when he told me the story. And I turned around him and I said, did you live with us? But he was very shell shocked as well after? He was Yes, he was taken away from the front, but I'm not sure if it was. He was. I think something like that was like

Unknown Speaker  9:53  
where he said he was still in the army when he met your mother. Yes. Yes, St. Anthony's calm All right. They were married in the West Country where

Unknown Speaker  10:03  
they measured Samantha's head. Now I think she went does they know they met before that in New York, he knew her. And then they decided to get married when he was stationed at Samantha's head. And they got married and tura.

Unknown Speaker  10:20  
He said he fell in love with her voice first because she had a lovely

Unknown Speaker  10:23  

Unknown Speaker  10:28  
There was another story when he was after the army that they were having a reunion. And so they all got together. And in those days, he didn't drink very much at all. And so they'd all been out and he came back home. Absolutely. tiddly. And Mary was in bed. And she said, he stood at the end of the bed, staggering. And he said, I got to tell you the funniest thing, and obviously is the one of his friends in the army. He just told me, he said, White Houses drunk, right under the bed. Stay there because she couldn't figure him out. White Houses.

Unknown Speaker  11:10  
Yeah, if I may suggest, we move on to the middle of strong Midlands connection with your father. I remember as a kid on listening to the national radio and hearing the niqab interpreter. After

Unknown Speaker  11:25  
leaving the RCMP, he graduated from the air in what you just said.

Unknown Speaker  11:29  
I'd had to make guess I don't know probably 20 to

Unknown Speaker  11:35  

Unknown Speaker  11:37  
But the imperative now was to form a career started.

Unknown Speaker  11:43  
Very, very bad ears with serious economic troubles, and they were no jobs. So that that's when he took any of the jobs that he could and alternatives have come in, you see what's stopped.

Unknown Speaker  12:04  
But he never thought of doing an agenda.

Unknown Speaker  12:06  
Music. No, no, no, no, no,

Unknown Speaker  12:08  
I didn't encourage him. Yes. Well,

Unknown Speaker  12:11  
they both were on the show together. Oh, my jumping thing. It was an American show called The Roundup. And

Unknown Speaker  12:20  
your mother being a professional? Yes.

Unknown Speaker  12:23  
Right. And so he conducted the orchestra as they toured all over this country, and it was an American show, round up all about Cowboys, and so on. And she was the lead singer. So that's when they were really travelling a lot together. I live, she travelled, she played in the name of Gilbert.

Unknown Speaker  12:45  
I can't think wouldn't anybody know the connection we'll make it was her mother's name. Oh, that was because dementia until when

Unknown Speaker  12:56  
what was the the style of performance, the kind of shows that they did and how it fitted in with the the general theatrical activity,

Unknown Speaker  13:07  
whatever called reviews in those days musical reviews, and they, they took them on tour. And, and then he would sometimes augment the orchestra, the local orchestra. So if they played for safety argument's sake, the Empire New Castle, they would have perhaps an extra pianist or their own pianist, rather, that would know the show and make it much easier for the, for the show, to go on that way. But he had some lovely stories about that with some of these orchestras that have had the same members for years and years. And he particularly plays in Cambridge. And he was very, very keen on tuning and had a very good air, perfect pitch. And so first of all, it said come in and say good morning, gentlemen. Nice to meet you. And then he said, Would you please give me a and he said, This particular one is began to sort them out. And he said, Just a minute, would you give me a so violin has given me something. And then he finally got down to the little cello player. And he said, Would you give me a service diet? And he said, No, no, a please. I'm fine. This is now looking at Gov. You see this in notch. He said, Well, that's been a for the last 20 years. Well, staying

Unknown Speaker  14:37  
safe for the orchestra. Did you have any musicians? Or do they have any musicians with the troupe or just the MD,

Unknown Speaker  14:45  
just the MD just the end

Unknown Speaker  14:48  
of the show was not a book show, but a series that was was

Unknown Speaker  14:52  
mostly it was a series of Acts, but sometimes you'd have a bookshelf

Unknown Speaker  14:55  
over the show the round or the round was was like musicals today. Americans show that they're

Unknown Speaker  15:01  
mad Oklahoma.

Unknown Speaker  15:02  

Unknown Speaker  15:07  
How often do they change shows you would they join a specific show they work with it right from the

Unknown Speaker  15:16  
company what we say we'll say give the main jack Hilton would put a review together and have it to national tour. So when that had more or less done the whole country, then he put another one together. So it'd be the same. Same management, the hands that would say now I'm putting after the the round up, it would be perhaps another show with another title. In fact, there was one that he loved and it was called, it's about time. And the reviews were it's about time it came off, and that type of thing.

Unknown Speaker  15:55  

Unknown Speaker  15:58  
there was a difference between

Unknown Speaker  16:00  
musicals in those days were covered for the same type of thing I really

Unknown Speaker  16:06  
don't want it to be.

Unknown Speaker  16:08  
Could be.

Unknown Speaker  16:12  
They just didn't get as many bookings. But it was a hard time for them for them, but on the other hand, it produced he was a wonderful restauranteur. And they produced the most marvellous True Stories of all the things he'd been through with all the old musical artists once they got into the fall music fall. They, when he eventually came to Brighton Manley Coventry Hippodrome, he was a Brighton Hippodrome because of the terrific work but it's not we call it depression, but it wasn't that.

Unknown Speaker  16:51  
Well, no depression in 1928 2009. Yes.

Unknown Speaker  16:55  
Yes, it

Unknown Speaker  16:56  
was the post war slump.

Unknown Speaker  16:58  
That's the question time that the London Palladium conducted they were both owned by the same management, the London Palladium and the Brighton theatre most most nights and so the Palladium closed during the Depression, but they had to give the job keep a job for the top man who was the Palladium conductor because he had priority and so that he was fired from Brighton with great regret. They said that they had to give the job over to the Palladian. And it was at that point, and it's always the same. It's all sounds like a cliche to say if things turn out for the best in the end, but it was from Brighton as he eventually got the job of Coventry Hippodrome from Coventry Hippodrome, it was the Birmingham BBC, who started him broadcasting.

Unknown Speaker  17:50  
We, it's interesting that I mean, in terms of broadcast and we go to a load come in, obviously 1923 and then the next station was with Birmingham, and they had a strong tradition of broadcasting in Birmingham into the national network. I mean, then we took up the only two cities that produce broadcasting in any way well, London and Birmingham originally a number of years, which is presumably why they were already and and there's a strong tradition isn't there? I mean, just not the Coventry Hippodrome but jack Wilson and his trio Gary engelmann sixth day they were all in the Midlands is a very fine musical group and did a lot of broadcasting which made them enormously popular three days a week practically.

Unknown Speaker  18:34  
And it was from that but of course he got conducted by BBC varangian Okay, let's not

Unknown Speaker  18:39  
jump to for the time and the dates that he was in Brighton and

Unknown Speaker  18:48  
if we can,

Unknown Speaker  18:50  
but I would say he was pulled their 2829

Unknown Speaker  18:55  
I spent

Unknown Speaker  19:00  
32 when he left Brighton. I went to Coventry was probably about 30 to 33 and then to London. 3636.

Unknown Speaker  19:12  
Okay, before we come on to the review, period, what were some of the the headlines he's worked with, as he was?

Unknown Speaker  19:23  
I mean, the Harry Lada he just pull out a name Gracie fields, he had wonderful stories about all of them. Shall we

Unknown Speaker  19:31  
try and do those anecdotes in one group or shall we

Unknown Speaker  19:35  
Petri Okay, how maybe one of us will remind the other something comes to mind about either of those people are in order. Well, the one I was thought about so Harry Lauda was when the BBC was doing and whether this one can be repeated but it was when the BBC were doing his I can't remember what it was but anniversary for Sahara. And they had the BBC Symphony Orchestra for Him. And I believe it was sorry, Adrian, both all the time was conducting. And so Harry Lauder was furious because he said that they just didn't know how to play for him. And he walked with Charlie shadow brought in, which of course, was very difficult thing. But then Adrian both just asked him if he would mind coming along, to have a word with him. So he walked in, and he said, Okay, what is the problem? And since this number, he says, You know, I can always sing this number, I can't sing with this orchestra. Well, what, of course happened with a symphony orchestra not being used to music call artists. That's my father said they, over the years, their voices get lower and lower, but they still carry the same music around, but a musical orchestra immediately can transpose. So he said, This choral, so Harry norther trying to sing against an orchestra that singing in the key he's saying in his 20s. So he just turned to the whole orchestra and said, transpose down. Please. See, he says, I told you, Charlie, shad was the only one could conduct for me. Thank you. Right.

Unknown Speaker  21:14  
We are very young. Anyway.

Unknown Speaker  21:16  
I mean, you don't remember?

Unknown Speaker  21:21  
The only thing the trauma because he was so terribly upset. Sorry.

Unknown Speaker  21:32  
I was gonna say three of you know, I've been born by this time. Yes. Did you travel with with with your phone? No.

Unknown Speaker  21:41  
No, we lived in Brighton. They had a flat

Unknown Speaker  21:44  
where I live first of all in Brighton

Unknown Speaker  21:47  

Unknown Speaker  21:48  
how I can remember it. No, it was a flat is that it's an extraordinary thing was I was married. My first marriage and my brother in law's wife. Her father played for daddy in Brighton as the pianist. She lived in the flat upstairs. So that's how I don't remember that. But that's how I know because. And she remembers sitting on Joan's knee. Because Barbara is two years younger than I am. And I'm younger than Jan, but she remembers sitting on Joe's knees.

Unknown Speaker  22:31  
Yesterday the

Unknown Speaker  22:32  

Unknown Speaker  22:34  
So that's how I know it was.

Unknown Speaker  22:39  
Okay, so of the Brighton period, have we exhausted those members? Do you think that the circumstances of going to Coventry, but how long was he able to work if he was? Well, I

Unknown Speaker  22:53  
think very short time I think it was very important that that I mean, he did not apply everywhere. And the funny thing was that my mother said she really didn't wish to go to Coventry after Brighton, you know when you've got a flat by the sea and everything but she said they really met some wonderful friends. They're in a habit of looking back on it. She said it was a wonderful time. And I emigrated to Canada some years ago. And at the time she said to me, try not to sort of feel badly about any place that you go to. It's sort of enjoy it for what it is at the time because she said he looked back on carpentry. She had hated going hated him losing the job at Brighton. And yet everything turned out for the best in the end, which sounds terribly. So that

Unknown Speaker  23:39  
really was a mucky, midlane

Unknown Speaker  23:46  
talk but

Unknown Speaker  23:47  
I'm thinking to impossible to tell that funny story about the the mayor's the mayor's parade he had to go to work. Remember, do very well. But he used to he was well known in carpentry, of course by the end at the Coventry Hippodrome. And he always went to work on his bicycle. And he was going to work one day and he totally forgotten that there was a great big to do somebody visiting Ross was wrong. He were visiting Coventry, and the mayor was there and everybody but he had to get to work and he shot down the street. And he somehow got some of the police go and whatever it was, and he went down this royal route. The potty cheered,

Unknown Speaker  24:26  

Unknown Speaker  24:28  
Tony did better than when the Lord

Unknown Speaker  24:34  
to please really.

Unknown Speaker  24:41  
I'm wondering how people got jobs in those days. Did your father have an agent or was

Unknown Speaker  24:48  
karate paper where they looked for the

Unknown Speaker  24:53  
carpentry? Anybody have any idea? How did they succeed?

Unknown Speaker  25:00  
Remember, new new new

Unknown Speaker  25:02  
new new new sim was the manager

Unknown Speaker  25:04  
was very well known

Unknown Speaker  25:06  
in the Western world was a new

Unknown Speaker  25:11  
name that still strong in wrestling news,

Unknown Speaker  25:13  
not less than racing racing car racing. Not horses. No, sorry, guys. I never remember his name. Because we don't know who he follows.

Unknown Speaker  25:25  

Unknown Speaker  25:30  
Mother was very instrumental in getting work, wasn't she? She was forever ringing people up. She was she looked after him. I think she used to return back to write letters. People

Unknown Speaker  25:42  
often her she continued her career. She's no

Unknown Speaker  25:46  
help me. She's Well, I

Unknown Speaker  25:49  
mean, that was not the women's libbers.

Unknown Speaker  25:57  
How was he hired for Coventry? Was it on a fairly short term basis? or full time? Right. And I mean, was there the promise of an extended period of employment? Because I'm, I'm curious, when you all moved up, you gave up right and presumably moved up to

Unknown Speaker  26:13  
contrast? right away?

Unknown Speaker  26:18  

Unknown Speaker  26:19  
Any idea? Well,

Unknown Speaker  26:20  
were you in the business? They

Unknown Speaker  26:25  
were still. As you started

Unknown Speaker  26:29  
doing amateur dramatics and comments,

Unknown Speaker  26:32  
to say, Yes, I was thrilled to bits we went to see. Absolutely, I was

Unknown Speaker  26:40  
just using the quiz right away. So do you ever watch the show was no, no, I used to have me sing in the in the orchestra pit, the interval, yeah. big moment. And usually the band just fills in or something. But it became, he made the interval, the big moment for the orchestra so that when they had the intermission for the show, he would then lead them into a wonderful medley of whatever. And the people began to really look forward to this. And he would put me in sometimes, I'd pop up there with a little microphone and say, whatever it was, you know, no, money, there's every time happy to do it. But thinking of

Unknown Speaker  27:30  
the integrity of the big thing is how

Unknown Speaker  27:33  
he started that was quite accidentally because he, he was a shocker for time, he left everything to the last minute. And the breakfast away. He wasn't going to go out of the house on less it was on the second every day. And he did this one evening. And he he, I think the orchestra wasn't used that week. But they still had to do the intermission. They weren't like, so he got there for the intervals to stop. And he was he suddenly realised he'd left it too late. And he hadn't got time to go round into the band room and come up into the pit. And so he looked down from the from the bar at the back down to the orchestra. And everybody applauded. And it went down so well that it wasn't used to keep that in and it became a big feature. spotlight. Every interview, he came down entrance, it made an entrance,

Unknown Speaker  28:27  
you know, you just reminded me she was bringing out the Roundup. This was the first time that they had a band on stage playing within the show. And so they had it well it was in the scene where they had the band and it was supposed to be a sort of I didn't know whether what would the background of that was but the band were on dressed as cowboys. And this particular night in this theatre. He realised that he was late and then rushed and he was downstairs the dressing room somehow or another was downstairs and he found a man and he said, How do I get upstairs? I can't find the way he said how long ago and he put him in the little thing. trapdoor thing is to keep your arms down, and he shot

Unknown Speaker  29:15  

Unknown Speaker  29:33  
He had wonderful though. One of my favourites was a band was one of his first appearances in front of a band and he was so nervous and so excited that with quite a bit wider playing stage, just drapes on. And they got on stage and he was emison nervous, and this was it. And the current note when they said did the downbeat, and he only hadn't. They just played play on and the curtains went up applause and he raised his arms. The drama with all his kid fell off the background including vibes.

Unknown Speaker  30:14  
The curse, it was very tempted to

Unknown Speaker  30:19  
show me come down to

Unknown Speaker  30:36  
your bones show this. How did it strike you these these early recollections of being part of this? Was it glamorous? Or was it just

Unknown Speaker  30:47  
it was quite normal. I mean, probably to other people. It was a very strange phenomenon Wait, but wait to us it will ask you the normal way of life.

Unknown Speaker  30:59  
We were very lucky every we were allowed to go every Friday night first house because we didn't have school the next morning and it has to be first house to every show every week with new every week. First house every Friday we went and then we were allowed to go through the pit to the band room and say hi there and how do you do and then we'll quickly rushed out before the band got into the beer too seriously.

Unknown Speaker  31:22  
became too so critical, wasn't it? Because it's so critical. And daddy said you know, if you had to pay for your seats, you wouldn't likely young age well, I don't think much of

Unknown Speaker  31:34  
us always joke and say, you know, at the end of it when we would complain, he'd say Did you ask for your card back? For example, good grammar, but the worst thing I remember was Hazel at one time Do you remember this one? We've been going week after week all musical comics and everything. But Danny was really good at telling jokes. I mean, he would come home and had a lovely job. So he's telling this joke gets to the end of it. We all laugh and Hazel goes well that's an old one. And he goes That's the last time they go we go figure

Unknown Speaker  32:10  
out what stand up comics it was the thing we didn't like when we found out they were not yet but the sopranos, Billy Russell because he was always going to light his part in the match and then he tells you when we became

Unknown Speaker  32:27  
we couldn't understand the

Unknown Speaker  32:38  
living again. There was

Unknown Speaker  32:42  
no good at the Birmingham accent let's just say me liberabit to sing. Come on, and we automatically get

Unknown Speaker  32:53  
the welcome I would say no for an encore. We don't go and the worst thing was I used to put the photo and I would say of course my father would look around be furious if we weren't responding. So every time we'd smile and look so I'd say put your hands together but don't really applaud. They won't do an encore so we can do this Trinian's

Unknown Speaker  33:23  
thing I couldn't stand on those magicians but not not the big ones with boxes and things but the one with take a card, you know, in the end wasn't I was definitely I used to get bored.

Unknown Speaker  33:39  
Everyone was he was the uncle. We were soccer.

Unknown Speaker  33:42  
I worked with an actor and he had a marvellous act of different than he had bowls, you know, out of the blue just like the bowl Noma. And it was wonderful those sorts of things. But I remember he did. He thought he chose something different and he got bananas and you'd say take a banana

Unknown Speaker  34:01  
we see which banana you

Unknown Speaker  34:09  
told me which one it is.

Unknown Speaker  34:27  
If you couldn't stand the magician soprano, did you vote

Unknown Speaker  34:31  

Unknown Speaker  34:34  
The day of the core skills like the black

Unknown Speaker  34:37  
yeah and so

Unknown Speaker  34:39  
I like the magician that

Unknown Speaker  34:44  
big ones with the disappearing

Unknown Speaker  34:47  
love to use to see will Hey. Oh, wow. He really well some comedian a success. Oh, marvellously fine.

Unknown Speaker  34:58  
He was all doing He

Unknown Speaker  35:03  
wants to say yes.

Unknown Speaker  35:05  
The guy was the big time guy was heavy well known. His father was famous and he took on and Harry

Unknown Speaker  35:11  
Wade Jr.

Unknown Speaker  35:20  
To speak tight, couldn't listen because any explosion so we never listened to that as always the bank

Unknown Speaker  35:36  
on the US we've just gotten

Unknown Speaker  35:43  
very tight, very tight Union as all

Unknown Speaker  35:50  
the headliners must have.

Unknown Speaker  35:55  
Just I mean, they there wasn't any music hall there wasn't there wasn't any television. You just went around the

Unknown Speaker  36:01  
circuit. And they were very fortunate in those days that they got one good act. I mean, they could keep that act and do it for you. They wouldn't come back to Coventry, or whichever Empire after it was for one or two years on, so it was great to hear it again. But now the poor television people I mean, the whole world heard this and everybody goes like Hazel with no

Unknown Speaker  36:28  
problem also these days is they never had a chance to really learn their craft.

Unknown Speaker  36:33  
No, no, no, your client laughs

Unknown Speaker  36:37  
before we even had a week's work, but

Unknown Speaker  36:39  
certainly, Paul. Oh, yes. We

Unknown Speaker  36:42  
love him with a big bandage on

Unknown Speaker  36:45  
the way my mother

Unknown Speaker  36:47  
said john. Yes.

Unknown Speaker  36:48  
Can you be one? When did the broadcast start then round about?

Unknown Speaker  36:57  
The Day War broke out? Rob Wilson loved him.

Unknown Speaker  37:05  
For a long time. Yes.

Unknown Speaker  37:09  
It'll be one day then. Because I remember the billing. From the Coventry HIPAA data jobs job we

Unknown Speaker  37:16  
did sometimes go to Burma. Yeah, sometimes. Sometimes.

Unknown Speaker  37:19  
They were basically straight sort of,

Unknown Speaker  37:22  
like state by state.

Unknown Speaker  37:24  
conflict. Yes. medalist. Whatever.

Unknown Speaker  37:28  
One One last question about the the musical aspect of all this. Were you aware of these performers as individuals? Or were they just asked to you did you go? How did the public face coincide or not with with a backstage all

Unknown Speaker  37:45  
the while it was still sticks in my mind was being a really great fun person was Tessier Shea Oh, she was very young. And so although to us, we were young that she seemed older. I mean, I look back on it, you know, she was still in our 20s. But she took us all out. And everything was fun with her. I mean, that image she has almost stage of being full of fun and full of life. It really, that was to said is true of testing.

Unknown Speaker  38:14  
And yes, and she was living in Miami. She'd moved to Miami. And she had been in a show. And that was a terrible flop. But she was the only thing that cut the writeups. Yes.

Unknown Speaker  38:29  
Did you remember us? Yes.

Unknown Speaker  38:34  
Another one would love to stay tuned because he will the three of us Freeman Hardy and

Unknown Speaker  38:38  
he could never remember.

Unknown Speaker  38:43  
He was he was not very nice.

Unknown Speaker  38:45  
The other one that was completely different offstage or two of them were really and that was wil Hayes, who was terribly interested in astronomy. The very serious man so nobody could get a laugh at all from him. It was so serious. And then Tommy Handley also was, I mean, it was good fun, but he he was interested in criminology.

Unknown Speaker  39:13  
Do you remember any of them who were unpleasant people?

Unknown Speaker  39:17  
You have to remember that when you're young as children you don't really

Unknown Speaker  39:20  
when we didn't take it. We said we don't like

Unknown Speaker  39:25  
it but nothing to do with this. Stand up.

Unknown Speaker  39:35  
Go to shows.

Unknown Speaker  39:38  
Just Just the one Saturday, I think. I think it was a 508

Unknown Speaker  39:44  
Friday what because we always hit first house Friday. Yes, it was two houses.

Unknown Speaker  39:50  
tried it twice likely. Yes. When

Unknown Speaker  39:52  
I first house Monday. Yeah. disaster, wasn't it? Yeah, it was

Unknown Speaker  39:58  
mostly mostly Just last night was music.

Unknown Speaker  40:02  
And we'd love to cause the with the musical comedies when they came around.

Unknown Speaker  40:06  
Oh, yes, probably

Unknown Speaker  40:09  
steadyhand marvellous drama has always orchestra great, but this sort of fellow kid was originally from Bolton, and is drawing excellent. Yes. And anyhow, the I don't know which company it was, but it was, I think, an opera company. And they brought their own complete orchestra. They weren't needed. But Bob was needed, just for the triangle for one particular performance. And so he had to be there. And he had to count something like 515 bars. So of course, he got where it was no, at least a half an hour. And he didn't drink. But of course, nothing is really thirsty when I say went next door and had a beer in the pan. And he came back and he had about cinnabar Hamptons happening bars to go. So he sat down, and counting the button finally cannot be got the triangle that is counting a final exam that 15 1439 8754321 and he hits the thing, and it's gone sideways, and he missed it. That was a big moment.

Unknown Speaker  41:16  
Due to further

Unknown Speaker  41:18  
error in at home.

Unknown Speaker  41:21  
But you say the orchestra was to a very high standard.

Unknown Speaker  41:26  
He was a disciplined and

Unknown Speaker  41:29  
then he really this was,

Unknown Speaker  41:31  
it was very interesting to be at a rehearsal. And because you saw a different man completely from the man at home. And he had a marvellous ear, it always amazed me because they'd be playing and he just stopped it and say, you know, who's got, you know, give me that we've got such and such at this bar, Montague got us wrong. And he could pick one note your whole office. And it surprised you and he would get very annoyed with them as well. So somebody wanted to, you know, Union hours are coming up, and so on and so forth. And they were ready to finish. Very different man very disciplined with his orchestra, but nothing like it wasn't good fun, really, on the whole,

Unknown Speaker  42:09  
the code revision would have been one of the prime dates, I suppose.

Unknown Speaker  42:14  
I think it was a 10.

Unknown Speaker  42:17  
In the in the

Unknown Speaker  42:23  
cluster, roughly would you say?

Unknown Speaker  42:25  
Usually the average was around about a 15 piece orchestra?

Unknown Speaker  42:29  
And would they have been recruited locally over the years?

Unknown Speaker  42:35  
Any idea what your father would have been in that position?

Unknown Speaker  42:39  
Sorry. Back to

Unknown Speaker  42:40  
that when you come back? Yes, it was. Any ideas? What

Unknown Speaker  42:43  
we didn't know?

Unknown Speaker  42:44  
Was it a good living? compared

Unknown Speaker  42:47  
compared with the time I was saying the other day that, you know, I remember at one point in his life that I think his salary was around 1000 a year? Which same time, like bus conductor 350 400. So you have to take a domain context.

Unknown Speaker  43:04  
Middle 30s Yes, less than three pounds a week was a big way.

Unknown Speaker  43:12  
To us, I was just commenting the other day because I saw a paper boy was being offered 16 to 20 pounds a week, which is above the fold. And I said my god, that was supposed to be a wonderful salary. Wasn't that what he says?

Unknown Speaker  43:25  
When did the BBC go to sell? Yes. Yes, he went to the BBC

Unknown Speaker  43:29  
was because I know when you learn how that true because when the job was advertised, obviously they applied when he went the this Newsome man, the manager was very upset and very cross and sort of said, Why didn't you tell me? I would have raised your salary to keep you. But he didn't. And he said, Well, it's too late. Do you really think so? They did keep him down at problems.

Unknown Speaker  43:53  
He wasn't well pay. Most employers were not notorious.

Unknown Speaker  43:59  
And I know when he went he sort of said, well, it's a little bit late now to sort of say, I will increase your because I believe it was increased annually. You know, I think you have to sort of not go cap in hand. But I think it was a case of you will have a rise all

Unknown Speaker  44:13  
but it was very little.

Unknown Speaker  44:15  
So when this happened. He sort of said, Oh, no, I will give you

Unknown Speaker  44:18  
this, isn't it? It's too

Unknown Speaker  44:19  
hastily wanted to say something about the liberal musician.

Unknown Speaker  44:21  
Yes, I know. He didn't recruit them locally, because they applied like any musician would for a job that's going because it was a permanent pose. Because you marry with a trumpet player was was from the Marines. He been in the Marines trombone player. And so they weren't local. They were definitely they just answered the adverts as you would for permanent post.

Unknown Speaker  44:44  
Was the union very strong.

Unknown Speaker  44:50  
I think Leslie on that was on BBC One, the orchestra that and Leslie Sunday I know was the leader of the Union. But do you see the thing is that that he did not have to be To the union, but the orchestra had to say belong to the content artists Association. I think didn't the musician union? No, he didn't. No, no, no, no, he didn't belong to anything at all on this.

Unknown Speaker  45:17  

Unknown Speaker  45:20  
We talked about Legion life.

Unknown Speaker  45:25  
With with you? Yes. Well, let me know I don't. I think the thing that's upsetting mostly was that if you have a job to do, I mean, he said that the unions, of course, he'd been through the bad times of the depression. So he said that they were, you know, necessary at that time. But he felt that they went overboard, especially when you've probably experienced this too and showbusiness. But when you're getting in, it takes a long time for an artist to be able to work into doing something and getting exactly what you want. And just as you're ready to roll cameras or the TV show, the union says it's time for a break or you're going to pay double time or triple time or what have you. And that used to infuriate me used to say, as musicians should have a little bit more sense of the, you know, artistry needed for this and so on, but that would upset him. That's the only thing I can remember him talking about.

Unknown Speaker  46:18  
The problems then were with the semi pros in the local area when they because occasionally, I don't doubt he had to augment for a particular artist. To be there. They get one of the semi one of the local semi pros

Unknown Speaker  46:32  

Unknown Speaker  0:00  
people, especially young people now are not only inheriting the houses and buying another one. But in those days, I always remember my father saying, and I spoke to other people who agree that it didn't pay you to buy a house in those days, because property was a reasonable price that you couldn't it doesn't increase in value as it goes now. I mean, not to the same extent. And if repairs needed doing to a house, it cost the landlord. And so I thought that was just my father's, you know, belief, but you probably can say the same for your parents that in that day and age, the very few people bought property because they didn't think it was I mean, if they had the money, they just didn't think it was the

Unknown Speaker  0:39  
money to do it.

Unknown Speaker  0:44  
Wasn't that

Unknown Speaker  0:44  
I think there was different attitude towards money too, because the lot of people you've got 3% Walloon, for example, the average rate of return was

Unknown Speaker  0:55  
three 4%. Absolutely.

Unknown Speaker  0:56  
Oh, no, it was a different world.

Unknown Speaker  1:00  
We'll talk about that later. Looking back. The changes I think have been remarkable. And he would have noticed this, right. So we're now approaching his career in radio. How did that come about?

Unknown Speaker  1:16  
an advert to see my mother swords. And he did and he applied

Unknown Speaker  1:20  
Well, he built a reputation obviously with the broadcaster he was known all day. The BBC. Yes.

Unknown Speaker  1:27  
Oh, he wasn't.

Unknown Speaker  1:31  
I mean, 70 Have you been lied? Yes. But

Unknown Speaker  1:33  
he was working for BBC Birmingham.

Unknown Speaker  1:35  
We've only just touched on on that before so maybe we should go into that now in greater detail. His first connections not employed by the BBC that play on the BBC. Right. These were these were outside.

Unknown Speaker  1:50  
Also that helped him his background as far as education was concerned as well. That those days was a little some degree and realise that it was a snob everything with BBC also

Unknown Speaker  2:04  
was a public.

Unknown Speaker  2:06  
school boy, that direct Mr. Sway.

Unknown Speaker  2:10  
We haven't lost about his musical tastes. You said much earlier he learned he studied computer composition. Did he have ambitions to be a serious composer?

Unknown Speaker  2:19  
He got his music, which was

Unknown Speaker  2:21  
what symphonic.

Unknown Speaker  2:25  
He did like he did like a series music and he did say one time at the BBC that he would very much like to perhaps played and then say involved in a deeper kind of music, but he said it there's no saying he said if the public won't try it, we have to give them try. And that's where the money is. Yes, he did. Like

Unknown Speaker  2:51  
he also did commercially a number of concert pieces. Regrettably, we haven't got many of them. I've only gotten one down to it. But

Unknown Speaker  2:57  
that was it. Cotswolds

Unknown Speaker  3:02  
sweet and you've got the locale that wasn't

Unknown Speaker  3:10  
in the Cotswolds.

Unknown Speaker  3:12  
West Country? Yes. Yes.

Unknown Speaker  3:17  
He really did like that he

Unknown Speaker  3:18  
loved opera. Both mummy and daddy both loved opera. They went.

Unknown Speaker  3:25  
I was curious if you had a favourite music composer.

Unknown Speaker  3:30  
thinks your favourite.

Unknown Speaker  3:32  
Well, we didn't really pick one. I just sort of thing. That's it.

Unknown Speaker  3:38  
His own stuff. He's

Unknown Speaker  3:38  
very devious.

Unknown Speaker  3:40  
I remember him. Again, remember the bad times before the war. And we lived in Wembley Park when he was at the BBC. And a man came around every Sunday morning playing the violin, you know, begging. And my father said what a wonderful violinist. He really was excellent. And he went out and said, Do you know this? I think it was dance with the spirits by book. And he said yes. And he played it for him. And he said, I wish I could give him a job. He was remembered as a child. You know, I've got music now played on my flute instead. But that reminded me you know, son, you that sort of he did you know?

Unknown Speaker  4:20  
Did your parents encourage you also to study music with Dr.

Unknown Speaker  4:25  
Mary? Do you mind except that nasal?

Unknown Speaker  4:33  
Also, I remember mommy saying that daddy was no teacher of music. He had to when he was hard up he did give piano lessons. And I think the tail goes there. I don't know Joe remembers that. That mommy said he was giving a piano lesson and he was so irritable because he hated it. And this little child was saying going this and he kept saying you must get the time right to see that and what tempo means Flying. And eventually the charts I was getting. He says it says the tempo is what his tempo and Joan was underneath the piano and calls out. I am you Sydney.

Unknown Speaker  5:14  
And that's why he, he couldn't there was and I remember when I was playing piano and doing some practice, apparently mommy said do you have you're not taking really enough interest in her playing. And really when he came in, he was using as soon as the music came on, he was a different. He was correct and right. And I was absolutely nervous. When he, when it worked out, I sort of said, you know, don't don't ask him to come help me. I'd rather do it my way. And he just didn't like he wasn't ever coming

Unknown Speaker  5:44  
out to put me on. And we had a kind of we used to have a piano teacher come every Saturday morning. Do you remember? She cheated Bradley pacted in my four but every Saturday morning, the burnt my finger fell down, shot the foot in the door was crying and sobbing and I kept missing lesson after lesson. And and then I couldn't I couldn't because I couldn't do it immediately. I was bored with it.

Unknown Speaker  6:13  
Yes, because in

Unknown Speaker  6:17  
the third is probably was the the end of the period in which families made their own music, right. Even families that revolve around,

Unknown Speaker  6:27  
everyone had to have the piano.

Unknown Speaker  6:31  
Musically, we want people but they use mommy and daddy have their friends around. And they used to

Unknown Speaker  6:38  
debate if I was a doctor, but he and one time he apparently they had a musical evening. And one end of the room. They had to pick the people that were playing cards. And they were playing what was the ratios bridge? And there is sister Doris was amongst the bridge players at the other end. And then this end we'll use go even and this. They just announced Mr. Jones very, very kindly, has said that he would like to sing for them and they were so pleased and everybody. So they gave the music to the pianist and it will just spreading it out when Doris looked up and she said project terrible size that means something awful is going to happen.

Unknown Speaker  7:30  
So did you learn piano

Unknown Speaker  7:36  
first and then I failed miserably on

Unknown Speaker  7:38  
it. Actually I did because I was doing it because I used to hate going the chatroom, I listen to music grown up there. All the others play outside. You know you're sitting at the deputy editor. Okay, better Unfortunately, that's all right. Oh, yes. We all regretted it. Yes,

Unknown Speaker  7:56  

Unknown Speaker  7:58  
Okay, now the Birmingham movies as you call them, what were they describe them?

Unknown Speaker  8:04  
Well, they were justice. The Birmingham people would come in we'll set up mics on tables and play. He would play from the Coventry Hippodrome. He was the conference.

Unknown Speaker  8:17  
Room bc concert orchestra now? Yes.

Unknown Speaker  8:28  
Yes, yes. Yes. No, no, it was a programme of like music.

Unknown Speaker  8:36  
Always low presume? Yes. Yeah, that's right. So that meant what strange times a day or Sunday

Unknown Speaker  8:43  
morning. But it wasn't never the regular.

Unknown Speaker  8:49  
That's what 1115

Unknown Speaker  8:51  
remember, twice, nightly Music Hall. They were free in the daytime, you see. So

Unknown Speaker  8:56  
let me listen because it used to be in the town and put the radio on. Listen, if you didn't go there too much. With four of us to look after she was allowed to do.

Unknown Speaker  9:09  
Now that's but that's how he became well, now. That was a

Unknown Speaker  9:12  
regular thing like

Unknown Speaker  9:12  
listening? Yes. Yes. Possibly. In series, you know, people said you will say, Oh, yes, cha cha ball and come to him. And some bail people we will now but older ones can still. I've had people say to me or I remember the laundry

Unknown Speaker  9:30  
with a new. You say? Oh, yes, that's that's when I remember from my childhood.

Unknown Speaker  9:38  
That's right. Oh, yes, it was.

Unknown Speaker  9:41  
And radio was immensely important in people's

Unknown Speaker  9:47  
lives. That I do remember, he'd get very upset at my mother's criticism that she would listen very carefully to it and she she had a very good ear for music. But of course Very difficult because he will at the end of the broadcast, you could imagine everybody around saying it was wonderful, Charles marvellous. And he's here all this lovely hype, and then get home to a wife saying, well, I thought it was a little doll in the middle. And I didn't think the solo trumpet there was very good. And it would cause very bad moods for quite a while. But he always came around and listening to her because she was telling him the truth, and not flattering him like all the others were, but it took him a month, at least a day or two to get over it. And as you can imagine, that was the high point of everybody saying it was wonderful to coming home. So well, I thought it was a bit.

Unknown Speaker  10:39  
That's why I started calling Mrs.

Unknown Speaker  10:40  
parkington. Do you remember?

Unknown Speaker  10:42  
Yes, because of the criticism. But he always said she's my best critic, is that which is difficult when everybody's praising you on that and saying, It's wonderful to suddenly be told it's not

Unknown Speaker  10:54  
possible. The BBC live orchestra already existed?

Unknown Speaker  11:01  
Yes, yes.

Unknown Speaker  11:02  
I'm not sure. Well, I'm

Unknown Speaker  11:02  
not sure now. You read my thoughts there, right. Because I've got a feeling that this was the beginning. There was a review. looked it up? I think there was a review.

Unknown Speaker  11:21  
He got the job was because it was formed to be a variety of back variety shows, and he'd had the experience of the

Unknown Speaker  11:28  
music or the musician, but it's worth checking chronologically. Yes, but assuming that assuming that the job was advertised, the

Unknown Speaker  11:37  
others didn't have to abide by law, they have to.

Unknown Speaker  11:41  
And then the I remember when it was he was shortlisted. And then he was obviously the candidate still to be selected though. And I was remember him saying that they came, they whoever this man was, who was going to do it said I will come to the common Hippodrome, we will come and hear and see and watch. But wouldn't tell him when

Unknown Speaker  12:04  
it was probably john, what could have

Unknown Speaker  12:10  
been hammered at that time? Of course, I mean, even daddy wouldn't know perhaps it was. But I remember him talking to my mother and saying, oh, he's offered me the job. But he said he was so impressed when he came to the comment. Because he said you are so popular. And it's such a wonderful success. Do you really feel you want to give all that up? Okay, so you must have been the virtual admin for because he said you're really you're coming into the unknown. Oh yeah, that's right. So that's how that happened. Those

Unknown Speaker  12:43  
prompt a couple of questions going back again to the Coventry hip I suppose he wore tails every night now the spotlight on

Unknown Speaker  12:54  
great reaction with the house I just came down the same

Unknown Speaker  13:01  
tune was Happy days are here again so he's come down the office to start up and come down the aisle. And the other thing I remember from childhood was this at when he'd get ready to get to the evening dress on of course and we'd all be playing around and the booth the same scream at least twice a week of Where are those kids put my stud apparently put the collar on at the same time we haven't touched the stud never do this but it was always a terrible flap because he as we said before he left everything to the last minute so we just need one start to disappear from the dressing table that had been allowed for one second and that throughout

Unknown Speaker  13:44  
the year of the variety orchestra was then when you moved to London Yes, so well went live Okay, well you'll have to leave me here know how it affected your lives. How aware you were while he was doing I suppose you must have tuned in to the wireless every night or when

Unknown Speaker  14:10  
we listened to everything and

Unknown Speaker  14:13  
that's the days let's start with Monday night at eight o'clock Monday night.

Unknown Speaker  14:21  
Till 1937 it says

Unknown Speaker  14:24  
yes so that's

Unknown Speaker  14:29  
all the sutras basically. And lightened determine show is not purely variety, because it tells us all the magazine elements.

Unknown Speaker  14:39  
I can't remember did he do the author ask a show or not?

Unknown Speaker  14:43  
No, no, no.

Unknown Speaker  14:45  
original author ask you the king Murdock show. No, it was way way back. Oh, well, quite possibly.

Unknown Speaker  14:51  
But musicals on Saturday was one of them was 1988. I think the year after Monday night.

Unknown Speaker  15:01  
And when did musicals because that was a big thing that was that was already

Unknown Speaker  15:05  
running because that was that was john what big baby I mean he I think music hall had already run probably with the review or

Unknown Speaker  15:13  
came on to it then

Unknown Speaker  15:15  
musical started up so St.

Unknown Speaker  15:17  
George's Hall he tuned for it

Unknown Speaker  15:19  
I thought George George's hall for me was the gentleman that right sorry the the signature tune from for music call

Unknown Speaker  15:32  
the the bass line something

Unknown Speaker  15:43  
he wrote, he wrote it

Unknown Speaker  15:46  
with his music

Unknown Speaker  15:47  

Unknown Speaker  15:48  
musical into the fall through daddy's mistake, he gave him a line to read for him as a straight man and dairy dude back to ground and did the comedy. The big laugh and Arthur ASCII said remind me to make you my straight man again. And it put other eschewed before having, you know made this sort of mistake, which normally would have been just a comment. Yes. And they may just say they're made of ignorant

Unknown Speaker  16:18  
Oh, well, of course it became famous because love. Comics loved him because he always reacted good. Well, of course, the voice came across on the mic, and he became very famous for this big long

Unknown Speaker  16:33  
musical first started of the programme in 1932. JOHN Sharman devised and produced by john Ross, jumping to the other john producer, but he became famous as he says, when the variety Orchestra conducted by Charles Shadwell crashed in with the seek to the spice of life, that's fine for 20 years thereafter, I even worked on some of those later on.

Unknown Speaker  16:56  
I was used to break the stopwatch.

Unknown Speaker  16:59  
Yes, yes. But why am 52 years old trying to

Unknown Speaker  17:04  
know why Remember, the music hall was so popular? I mean, it really was. I mean, everybody isn't the musical ancestor. Because we were Catholics, we used to go to Confession on a Saturday night. I remember one that we were a bit late. It was like from seven to eight confessions. Well, in those days, or whatever that was, it doesn't

Unknown Speaker  17:23  
matter. And we

Unknown Speaker  17:25  
went down the road and we're running. And the priest is just coming out slinking back to the precipice. And we saw when he turned around and he said, Oh, I won't

Unknown Speaker  17:35  
know. I'll come

Unknown Speaker  17:36  
and hear you. And we said, I don't know. And he said, Well, I was just dashing off Do you music? That's how I always remembered music. And you wanted to hear it. So a mortal sin would let confessional

Unknown Speaker  17:52  
box early to go and listen to music or I thought was lovely. I really did.

Unknown Speaker  17:57  
What did they come from? That when was the studio?

Unknown Speaker  18:09  
Yes. It's really

Unknown Speaker  18:11  
tough as a data bank.

Unknown Speaker  18:14  
The only thing I'm funny about musical with the comics would use them of course, as they always do fully foil. And one of them said, Oh, he doesn't know that. Charlie's just had a bouncing baby boy, they pound baby boy with some joke he went on to but his mother our grandmother sent him a telegram saying disgraceful. I have not been in

Unknown Speaker  18:40  
radios believe.

Unknown Speaker  18:42  
Oh, yeah. Yes. I think he told me a story once it was having to do with the bald head, wouldn't it? Yeah, yes, the bald head.

Unknown Speaker  18:54  
Almost immediately, he became a character in the shows and the foil.

Unknown Speaker  19:06  
And they were like Tim, didn't they they will like to be a man.

Unknown Speaker  19:15  
He was a very good audience, whether it was one person or 100. But you know, if you told him something funny, he really would thoroughly enjoy

Unknown Speaker  19:26  
what were his outside interests other than music, and Yo, he's would go

Unknown Speaker  19:34  
and bicycling. He's Oh,

Unknown Speaker  19:36  
try some new cement to stay with him sometimes. And of course, smaller and younger. We haven't got the legs or bicycles need have a nice bike with a three speed gear on it. And he he's an IT company. He didn't like a lot of his income. And he looked around the family to see who was in the house and who was doing what. And he'd whittle through us and was it coming on? Would you like to go Aren't they? Oh yes, please Why won't go Cycling is a good friend of mine. We were at school, but it was school holidays or something. And we were younger. So we had not full size bicycles perfectly analysed. And he took us from Mars. This is jumping hibou and whales in. And he took a wind taxi and had to be put to bed once you got over my head has ever said cross allows us to walk for days and gone up the hills and down the deals. And could we have bigger wheels? Oh, it was dreadful. And I remember when we got here, my mother said, when Charles is raised for her halfway, we've been doing very well. We've done 22 miles and get this child in a ball. So

Unknown Speaker  20:45  
do the same with me guys, attendant. And mommy didn't want to go he tried to tell me to go and so like an idiot. I said, All right. We went up on that. And he handed us a thing on the front of it that showed you the speed you're going and the mileage and he said I've come home we've got to get a payment, and it was in Wales. So we can go free was wearing down the other side. And you'll get the look of the speed we're going to get there. And my dear we got we went to Betsy Korea before and when we got back, he was surprised we've done 30 miles there 30 something ridiculous. And in the centre and goes off the bicycle and I could walk. I had no sense of independence because I was at the back all day. So I went and I was I was just like a drunk person. And mommy was again, she was so upset. And I couldn't move and I had to go to bed and he loved the

Unknown Speaker  21:46  
activities he loved and it was a mama's say they loved the water. Moms, you know, deal with anybody who had

Unknown Speaker  21:57  
any luck growing dairy, he'd learned to row properties where I would show him how to feather the whole thing. And my husband and I, we took we went down to Oxford, I think it was and rowing all the way. And my points the next day couldn't move and that he was out conducting the orchestra. You say that was a marvellous day yesterday.

Unknown Speaker  22:21  
yes to God, this is going right back again now, because he was involved with the with HMS worcesters. And he that he was number two. So you know, as a cadet know as a cadet, and he something happened to him when he had to swim. So he was disqualified. He was sent home. But I remember that because HMS Conway's Do you remember it? Oh, by the way.

Unknown Speaker  22:48  
Yes. Well, this

Unknown Speaker  22:48  
was that the sister ship that was still

Unknown Speaker  22:52  
ATMs. But he bet so he was at one time destined to

Unknown Speaker  22:59  
do that. But fortunately, he's here recovered. Oh, yes.

Unknown Speaker  23:05  
All right. But

Unknown Speaker  23:07  
that's why he took a lot of this say anything more certain jury? I did you did he take you or did he go to concerts? For example? Will you go into the pictures as you know, we

Unknown Speaker  23:20  
cinnabar again, last week,

Unknown Speaker  23:23  
we did not do much with him. We went on our own he went with mommy say to the pictures when we went separately, but they went to the theatre. Yes. Terrific among it? Yes. He didn't some. I don't think he didn't really like being seen with four girls. Oh, he got a one or two whatever anymore. He would never really like to really own that he was the father of four daughters. No, but I remember once he was again, you said you'd look for somebody to go out with and he was sort of saying this. I'm got to drive to social get some picture. Will you come with me? and say, you know, oh, yes, you would go and then he said Anybody else? And then she said well well Argo would split up again your plane or sit on one leg go now come and he said Oh, and the pain for how many more? So we didn't really do a lot in that sense. Really? He didn't. I never felt he was you know that sort of family man. He was marvellous as a father no fun but he as a group religion like the crown What was the

Unknown Speaker  24:35  
reason you think was the overwhelm?

Unknown Speaker  24:36  
I think so. I think he felt perhaps he should have had a son or so because Don't forget he was really old school where you had tampered with some layer some of them he didn't have you ever. Please for Twitty girls wasn't really.

Unknown Speaker  24:52  
Yes, there was a great difference in

Unknown Speaker  24:54  
sexual absolutely was

Unknown Speaker  24:56  
to see so many women and one man With five women I mean really so much. Perhaps you know nowadays

Unknown Speaker  25:05  
Do we have a show that very gently?

Unknown Speaker  25:09  
Yes, it was never. No, no, just that just the phone and the old but you know enough just but but he wouldn't pursue it. I mean, you could still get he was he was a boss. That's

Unknown Speaker  25:21  
what he was a mother was supposed to the house but he was he was supposed to he was he was. Number one. Well, he

Unknown Speaker  25:29  
was really still leftover from that Victorian era because he was born in 1898 that Amanda was considered sort of infringing for a man to do any housework. I mean, never think of picking up drying up cloth from the help with dishes. I mean, it's very long.

Unknown Speaker  25:52  
And also mommy over sporting because she always said that she liked from the time they were married, she was worried to death that he hurt his hands because of being a musician. So of course, he wasn't encouraged in any way to do it. So he really was the sort of man with three men in a row. gunkel I was I mean, he really was with a nail having.

Unknown Speaker  26:13  
Really, I think it's, it's interesting to see that change from you know, the man who literally in the, let's say, it was a class situation, that it was almost looked down upon if a man did any kind of domestic many, many heroes today, it's just the opposite. Two people have to pull together and thank goodness for it.

Unknown Speaker  26:41  
Just been personal for a minute you remember your father doing things? He enjoyed cooking?

Unknown Speaker  26:47  
So he Yes, yes.

Unknown Speaker  26:50  
In terms of doing dishes?

Unknown Speaker  26:52  
No, no, no, very,

Unknown Speaker  26:56  
very strict division of chores. Oh, yes. And then we'll do certain things.

Unknown Speaker  27:02  
And the fire

Unknown Speaker  27:08  
the woman was not home as a housewife. And I mean, that was her role. That was the difference. So therefore, why should the man be expected to also do the housewife job

Unknown Speaker  27:22  
which is a bit sad for for people like mommy who had a beautiful voice and I've been on the stage and you really just want to talk

Unknown Speaker  27:31  
housewife marriage and motherhood and

Unknown Speaker  27:35  
so your creative side that's having a family was just

Unknown Speaker  27:39  

Unknown Speaker  27:40  
if they had passports they said housewife I

Unknown Speaker  27:45  
couldn't even say x something went

Unknown Speaker  27:48  
from the Coventry years on life I would have thought was was was quite comfortable in financial wasn't a made in house.

Unknown Speaker  28:04  
Do the heavy stuff.

Unknown Speaker  28:06  
But and holidays change. I mean, we did get over to France and things like that, which was about

Unknown Speaker  28:16  
the car Of course, you know, most people should have a car before which was well, well, we had an Opel load from Germany from Germany, because I remember the go back to rob Wilson, the

Unknown Speaker  28:29  
D Ward where

Unknown Speaker  28:31  
my father was saying Oh, golf. What about the car?

Unknown Speaker  28:34  
You know, because the German car Yes.

Unknown Speaker  28:43  
It Yes.

Unknown Speaker  28:50  
Had it in the garage. Do you know what you call them? Show them man looked after it for him. And he had the second car for parts which he couldn't get in.

Unknown Speaker  29:02  
Is he having Bangor? The? the oboe

Unknown Speaker  29:04  
because sometimes people would get annoyed and then somebody spat on the car one day as a German car. He said why don't you go and spit on the piano.

Unknown Speaker  29:16  
It's the first I've ever heard of an Opel in pre war England. Not that I knew much about cars must have been quite unusual.

Unknown Speaker  29:24  
I chose it because we would go

Unknown Speaker  29:30  
up the joke here. It is. I

Unknown Speaker  29:33  
think it was the probably the joke lifting. Yes, he was he just laughed at people he would

Unknown Speaker  29:41  
talk about the driving licence because apparently in 1923 he got a driving licence. You didn't have to pass any test at all. But a friend had got a motorbike and said, tried driving and said well I have to get a licence. He just got this licence and he drove straight into the ditch. That's all he ever did with it. When he bought the car, they said, Have you ever had a licence? I said yes. He they gave him a licence straight away. He was terrified. I really never had proper lessons. Garage man gave him a couple of lessons. And then we knew he died. We were going out and everybody was screaming, you know, watch out.

Unknown Speaker  30:26  
For the red flag.

Unknown Speaker  30:28  
People were fascinated with this little open with all chemicals. We asked

Unknown Speaker  30:37  
a question I want to do.

Unknown Speaker  30:42  
Again, reflecting the times did your mother drive

Unknown Speaker  30:47  
ever thought about whenever it meant

Unknown Speaker  30:49  
that the game was gonna just do it?

Unknown Speaker  30:52  
Again, women didn't really drive, you know, as a housewife up.

Unknown Speaker  31:00  
You have to take the car apart and put it together again. That was a sister she was she was unusual, putting that part of it. But I mean, as far as driving a car was concerned, no, it wasn't unusual for

Unknown Speaker  31:14  
a woman to know.

Unknown Speaker  31:16  
Anyway, but we did wrong heads. We never thought Oh, no. Can we ever do it in the car where I didn't?

Unknown Speaker  31:25  
Wasn't a car anyway, so he taught me but we haven't every time one time the BBC. I don't know which department that they were playing cricket in Regent's Park against another team itself. I think it was Fleet Street or something. And so they asked me if he would mind

Unknown Speaker  31:48  
project call it

Unknown Speaker  31:51  
and so we all went up in the car. Here it was lucky. All guys thought you know the usual all this crowd come out of the car everything Daddy's going to get with so excited. His big moment comes in he runs out and throws it over and it goes miles away. Now when near the batter anybody and that was that was that we all crawl back into the car as

Unknown Speaker  32:24  
well. Now he

Unknown Speaker  32:33  
started the map. And that was it. And he said that was because he never been able to throw. And when he was at school one time it was down and call the river and you said that but the third floor. He had some oranges in his hand. And like one of the guys said, Hey, shad Will you know give me an IRA certainly. And he says All right, hang on and he threw at this me two windows away, bro. It's got no idea. No idea of

Unknown Speaker  33:00  
somebody who needed called and ideas and making different muscles, then you all will go to private schools.

Unknown Speaker  33:12  
Yes, this went to convince government councils

Unknown Speaker  33:20  
alert not busy chatting the LEDs up

Unknown Speaker  33:29  
to the conference call.

Unknown Speaker  33:33  
relay This is fairly basic thing.

Unknown Speaker  33:42  
Was that again was part of the time was those were taught certain skills? Oh, yes. Yes.

Unknown Speaker  33:49  
Right. Yes. And the only out that you expected at the conference at the end was university

Unknown Speaker  33:57  
or bank. You know, that was that

Unknown Speaker  34:00  
was it. Anything else was not really acceptable.

Unknown Speaker  34:06  
Remember the phrase coming around and we're all saying goodbye or whatever it was, and what do you want to do? And once I want to be a noun, I want to be a noun. I want to be a teacher. I'm going on the stage and cross. That was the terrible thing and the Reverend Mother said to my mother, you're going to have terrible trouble with her.

Unknown Speaker  34:37  
Did the mogul go back Monday night at eight. That didn't come out to St. George's Hall. Surely. Musical dead.

Unknown Speaker  34:45  
We went to.

Unknown Speaker  34:50  
To me. That's what it was. Because I remember us going we would take him. I think it was still Monday night at seven and we've taken running water Today me Brian and Brian testing uncle okay and he fronted it and we loved it I remember we always loved it we all sensitiveness remember and I remember that we were on the balcony doing was the I think this is pretty Episode Two It was a morning moment oh well good evening Welcome to the show and you were pleased to know I'm surrounded by shareholders so the shareholders upset well we went totally over can we remember Can we really do we mentioned and when I went to school that those people got to say or didn't hear on the spot I couldn't get

Unknown Speaker  35:49  
to the surely the singing take a six to seven

Unknown Speaker  36:03  

Unknown Speaker  36:05  
on the

Unknown Speaker  36:07  
weekend Monday

Unknown Speaker  36:09  
to judiciaire

Unknown Speaker  36:12  
Cavendish three singing comma the three chunk free chunks first became the company's three letter inspect the whole investing day off to

Unknown Speaker  36:22  
say me rhymes

Unknown Speaker  36:28  
rhymes and bottles

Unknown Speaker  36:29  

Unknown Speaker  36:30  
those signal cups and walk us through jumble them.

Unknown Speaker  36:34  
That's right.

Unknown Speaker  36:37  
I can't remember what the junkman do.

Unknown Speaker  36:40  
When it was a little a little socially it

Unknown Speaker  36:43  
was just happened to him that

Unknown Speaker  36:48  
was great. woman came up to me in five minutes time

Unknown Speaker  0:01  
I shall tell that to you will that he'll think of something to interrupt it with.

Unknown Speaker  0:05  
So three,

Unknown Speaker  0:07  
right. I remember daddy coming home, absolutely furious because he's working with somebody that day, who'd been the night before and one of the many nightclubs that they frequented the windsors. And people were raised that she absolutely treated him like dirt. And he was outraged that she had shouted out in front of everybody. Come on Teddy, get that right, are seated down here, get that bomb on that chair. Now what are we going to drink? And it was something that it was such a shock to us as we sat with our mouths it would change the subject and hustled totally out, really, because you could see that we were surprised we were quite paid as children. And I think it puts us off suffering. But he was sent on saying, that would be the queen of it. Yes. That was when when this Club's never paid any money or anything when treated very badly.

Unknown Speaker  1:05  
Do you think there was any thought that maybe an alternate system of government and head of state might make sense?

Unknown Speaker  1:15  
No, no,

Unknown Speaker  1:15  
no, not not general public.

Unknown Speaker  1:21  
But, you know, again, you're saying that definitely takes me back to that feeling that, again, the Victorian feeling that they were very protective of us, both of them, I mean, Daddy, that, you know, we, we had to be protected from anything, especially bad language or whatever. And I remember sitting around the table, I said, What comes from cows with a plop? And I saw mommy and daddy look at each other aura. And that is what and I said the king's yacht. He was so pleased with the visit, it was a clean thing.

Unknown Speaker  2:01  
And bring next year's Christmas

Unknown Speaker  2:04  
time you know,

Unknown Speaker  2:09  
they always left all the newspapers lying about Africa, because we never bothered did we

Unknown Speaker  2:17  
went for convicts or wasn't because they were looking at daddy love and being he was a wonderful whack on terney love to tell tales for daughters was a terrible thing because there's no sound going all these to do entendre joke link don't start saying I must tell them this joke. And mommy would say, Charles

Unknown Speaker  2:38  

Unknown Speaker  2:40  
No, no, I cannot tell him that. No, and there was this Telenor and they start off with the job.

Unknown Speaker  2:47  
And that's exactly what

Unknown Speaker  2:50  
she said. No, no, no, that didn't

Unknown Speaker  2:55  
work. Do you know who's guiding him?

Unknown Speaker  2:58  
He told us, Joseph, I could

Unknown Speaker  3:00  
have been told you I didn't understand. We're just laughing because I thought I've been too long. I definitely being told one once and the poor man is coming out with these jokes that he's have, you know, in the studio, and definitely sits there. And he says the man said and everybody collapses and deftly says What did the other man say? Before daughter's in that sense? Yes.

Unknown Speaker  3:29  
Anyway, we've got off the ball we got off

Unknown Speaker  3:32  
to a good start.

Unknown Speaker  3:34  
What is that episode about broadcasting? The war is approaching? Yes. Things are about to change. And I wonder Are you meeting people like calling them here and Rob Wilton or to visit

Unknown Speaker  3:53  
only only because I was coming up

Unknown Speaker  3:56  
to your own career is

Unknown Speaker  3:59  
going up?

Unknown Speaker  4:01  
Maybe we should do but

Unknown Speaker  4:04  
we'll deal with that separately.

Unknown Speaker  4:07  
Because you were there broadcasting from the concert programme, the intermission and things

Unknown Speaker  4:16  
just because

Unknown Speaker  4:19  
God has

Unknown Speaker  4:23  
made the veil existed. I mean, the studios have made available quite traditional. They've been left for very long time.

Unknown Speaker  4:33  
long as I remember always maximum was eight something eight B was on the eighth floor. Yes. Oh, yes. Oh eight.

Unknown Speaker  4:43  
era was the

Unknown Speaker  4:44  
concert hall at a on the close that became a controller on the wall. Oh, no. They moved up and travelling down into the sub basement journal.

Unknown Speaker  4:55  
It was just all about saying Yeah,

Unknown Speaker  4:58  
and then the Paris cinema. gaggle that was hearing the wall but you're talking

Unknown Speaker  5:05  
later on they didn't write your band box down the Marlin road that was

Unknown Speaker  5:11  
too classy for that.

Unknown Speaker  5:18  
Yes, y'all just follow broadcasting house that you're talking about well wartime properties taken over Paris cinema. All of those were wartime alien whole. Yeah.

Unknown Speaker  5:27  
Yes, the moms was there. There was no blotch. Now total junk store sells all sorts of rubbish collection. garrison theatre, then it's the war,

Unknown Speaker  5:43  
right? Well, the war affected the family easy, because straightaway the departments were evacuated.

Unknown Speaker  5:54  
They go instantly to Bristol, yes. What happened was I had a big meeting in 1938, when they thought war was the plans were made them. And I know because we were still at school, the three of us. And so we were supposed to, I mean, the plans were just updated for 39. And it was all arranged where everybody would go, and that it was to go down to Bristol immediately. And we had the choice of either going with the school evacuation or with the family, we chose to go with the family down to Bristol. But that was the very first day of the war that we got in that little local car. And we had several

Unknown Speaker  6:37  
third, and all trips where we celebrate the 50th anniversary.

Unknown Speaker  6:47  
How did the word con was was it by telephone call?

Unknown Speaker  6:50  
I don't remember it was always very well planned by

Unknown Speaker  6:56  
large was largely responsible for the hub of that move. I read john, about it.

Unknown Speaker  7:02  
In pre plan ROI, because of this 19, as you say, associate business. And we went in, and the BBC had already arranged where families were to live in Bristol. So my father already been told where we were to live in Bristol, so of course, and the house was rented. So they didn't have to

Unknown Speaker  7:23  
furniture into storage. Yes, what happened was that we stopped off with our cousins. And so they because they did not have a house ready. They put them all in temporary accommodation, and then place them in tears,

Unknown Speaker  7:41  
didn't we? That's right. Well, what happened was they had meetings and asking people's reactions and thoughts about programmes because suddenly moving and everything, it was all sort of like everything was completely upside down. And Danny was one of the suggested garrison theatre and said, this is a water and drink, they done this in World War One, and entertain the troops and so on and so forth. And this is how that came about. Then, I share chance he had left music at home. And he called me and said, You know, so she sent me down with this music that he needed. And he was sitting with Harriers pepper. And so he I sat down, said, have a coffee, or whatever it was, we were sitting there talking, and then I left. And apparently, they said afterwards, the terriers pepper turned around to him, and he said, they were looking for the programme, though. They did they done the first programme without one, he said, it needs female, something, you know, programme. And when I left, he said, I found the programme girl. And daddy said, Who? And they said, your daughter? And he said, No. Because there it was not about his email address. There were two reasons. First of all, he wasn't about to push his own family. And second of all, there was a clause or law, you know, kind of unwritten law that you're not allowed to have relatives,

Unknown Speaker  9:05  
nepotism and boobies,

Unknown Speaker  9:07  
right? So Harry pepper said, that he said, I don't care about that. I want her I'm going to use her. And he said it did four songs and I didn't care, you know. And so that was the reason then about my name, gentleman. And so I went to Joe Marion, the very first programme, my first two named Joe Marion, and got a call from a German Marion actress in London saying, that's my name. I'm registered with equity itself. And so I was the one that said What's the matter with mommy's name, though? That's how that came about. Then, off we went, and we're doing okay, when suddenly there was a man that and I don't know why it didn't like that, and I can't remember the position he was in. But he reported the fact that I was his relative and I should not be in the programme. And we were by this time up in Bangor and daddy took the morning train and came down and met this whoever executive and said this is very unfair. He said I did not put it in the programme areas pepper had written the thing out to say that he could hardly and he said, Did he hear the programme? And the man said, Yes, I think it's lovely. I love the programme. Everything is nice. I love the little girl, whatever. He said, Well, that is what I've come down to see you about, is it fair? That she should be taken off? Because she's my daughter, but she's not, you know, not even my name so and so he just made a phone call. And he said she says to daddy that I actually stayed on the programme, but normally, he did say wouldn't ever push me into a programme. And that was that was marvellous. He did. And it wasn't

Unknown Speaker  10:55  
just said that jump house is on again. It's the BBC situation. Bristol was bombed Of course. And although it had been agreed that Bristol would be the place you had to move to Bangor

Unknown Speaker  11:05  
because Bristol they'd never know any plane could reach Bristol.

Unknown Speaker  11:10  
They have a wide range of the aircraft

Unknown Speaker  11:14  
flew to Northern Ireland or Banga Banga The, the other thing was,

Unknown Speaker  11:33  
somebody confused the bank.

Unknown Speaker  11:35  
That's why of course,

Unknown Speaker  11:38  
the Bangor

Unknown Speaker  11:40  
one about garrison theatre. That was interesting too, that he daddy having done garrison Theatre in World War One. track down the original Sergeant Major that he had in that regiment and got him on the show. Why is

Unknown Speaker  11:58  
his name Sergeant Major filmless delivered such Cockney comedy and dialogue. No, that's jack.

Unknown Speaker  12:09  
Let's let's expand on that you said he worked in a garrison Theatre in the first world. Yes.

Unknown Speaker  12:14  
That's where he got the idea. Again, as I said the person who really made that show because it was impossible to get to imagine all those young boys making a noise and they needed somebody to pull them into order and the sergeant major with this booming voice will do is and he said What we really need is that Sergeant Majors nicely managed to track him down and got the original sergeant major international

Unknown Speaker  12:39  
entertainment officer West Yorkshire regiment he done a show called garrison theatre whilst doing his other duties as well, presumably. But when it was billed, because of the difficulty of getting artists as well as the war on said famous artists will appear, engagements permitting and cracking to entertain. The first billion

Unknown Speaker  13:05  
was the fact that he had come down. All the artists naturally were converging on Bristol to get a date, because it was suddenly a real upheaval time and nobody knew what was happening. Right. So Jay coma came down, and he did a couple of broadcasts and he was really, he said in service, he was always starving. And that's all he had. And he was almost leaving when daddy used him on a music hall whenever it was a song. And he thought he was excellent. And he said he could write his own scripts. And he said, Well, that's what we need, because we didn't have script writers in those days per se. And so that's how jack Warner caught him together to do daddy liked him so much thought he would be excellent. Plus the fact he could write his own script and putting on and jack was said if he hadn't got that he was not only leaving Bristol, he was leaving the business and going back into the car business. And his sisters were LCN, Doris waters. Yes, they couldn't have him in water.

Unknown Speaker  14:15  
So what what has he been doing previously?

Unknown Speaker  14:19  
Well, he been doing the update here and there, you know, this sort of stand up comic bit. That's all.

Unknown Speaker  14:26  
Well, he did. He did. He did the monologue that he wrote himself.

Unknown Speaker  14:31  
Those he wrote those because Daddy, that's why Daddy, but that

Unknown Speaker  14:40  
was he told to be an actor or

Unknown Speaker  14:41  
a comedian. He'd never been an actor, he he actually lied to get the blue lamps and to say that he had been an actor, he told me the name. But he just had the confidence like a lot of them to say I can do it.

Unknown Speaker  14:54  
Well, as I say it's harder to do comedy than it is to act.

Unknown Speaker  15:00  
Can you better have a

Unknown Speaker  15:00  
seat? That's right.

Unknown Speaker  15:03  
That's why he wrote all that in there. He said that's why voting because they needed a writer. And he said he could do it himself. He said well that was passed the fact he loved him and

Unknown Speaker  15:12  
then it says here he had flirtatious dialogue with uppercross usherette john winters programmes, complete secret

Unknown Speaker  15:22  
materials written by john

Unknown Speaker  15:25  
and Harry and Harry

Unknown Speaker  15:28  
Potter, the producer.

Unknown Speaker  15:29  
Now there's some fascinating names because I think one of the most unlikely names in history is Harry. Let's remember. I remember

Unknown Speaker  15:39  
he was he was, he was uncle heritage. And then when I worked in the BBC are transferred. I I was working for dogs. So of course, instead of being our Uncle Harry, he suddenly had to become back to Mr. Petkoff. darsana did these you have loved uh, can you

Unknown Speaker  15:59  
read him? Because I think the name areas probably creates a mental picture which is

Unknown Speaker  16:11  
well there he was. He was a man who was his background originally was summer summer shows.

Unknown Speaker  16:25  
And he was the one that found LC and Doris waters doing exactly that they were doing summer concert Barney and all those artists he put on in on radio were originally constantly you know, artists and that was his background and where he started and cool you told me exactly exactly so all of them he had met during these these

Unknown Speaker  16:53  
summer things he'd been a promoter had he is what was his

Unknown Speaker  16:56  
way of producing for people to share rezone otherwise yes

Unknown Speaker  16:59  
he produces Entrepreneur of the time right?

Unknown Speaker  17:01  
That was his background and all these artists had worked for him. And at some time originally, he was a very very nice man charming man. Very quiet and so on but you remain very retiring. But underneath the doors he had a will of iron I mean you thought you can manipulate him but no way

Unknown Speaker  17:25  
who was good musically as well wasn't going to

Unknown Speaker  17:30  
play piano What do

Unknown Speaker  17:33  
you remember? Do you ever get let throw down called a little little fellow? Different Strokes, and they were tutors the boys and the father? Oh, what a pity. Well, anyhow, McBain was it when he used to look at elliptic curves. She looks like Harry Sperber short, dark. No, it

Unknown Speaker  17:54  
was on gingery here.

Unknown Speaker  17:58  
He always wanted that, didn't he? Do

Unknown Speaker  18:00  
you want a lot of time because Doris was always saying to take your hat off?

Unknown Speaker  18:04  
Oh, what do you got in the studio?

Unknown Speaker  18:07  
And everywhere outside. So basically saying,

Unknown Speaker  18:11  
take your hat off. And it was it

Unknown Speaker  18:16  
was Hazel, Mrs.

Unknown Speaker  18:19  
Mrs. Harris?

Unknown Speaker  18:22  

Unknown Speaker  18:25  
The BBC. And she became very well known for doing a programme called is your

Unknown Speaker  18:29  
second great concert pianist?

Unknown Speaker  18:31  
Yes, yes. But not not well enough to

Unknown Speaker  18:36  
make a real consequence.

Unknown Speaker  18:39  
I've never had that many people in the broadcasting.

Unknown Speaker  18:42  
I think that she knew her music. I

Unknown Speaker  18:44  
will say that her programmes are worked out meticulously. I mean, every record had to be a relevant key to the one before

Unknown Speaker  18:54  
I'm curious how easy it might have been to break into radio in those days are very tightly controlled and clique. How did Harris pepper get in? Presumably, he

Unknown Speaker  19:04  
took an idea. I think he was a friend of john watt again. A lot of it really was the father of variety concept, but

Unknown Speaker  19:15  
now they

Unknown Speaker  19:17  
way back when it was almost a sort of unwritten law that I know Jews and BBC Yes. And Harry S pepper got Harry Walkman brought him in. And of course the BBC being as naive as they were thought it was a kind of a German name and never he didn't look it anyhow. never realised that he was and then he from that moment on, got them in gradually in the back door, and his cousin Mara something I forgotten her name. Now. Loris, somebody marries a woman in, began to creep in and that's started. It's 23 Tires away,

Unknown Speaker  20:01  
but they'd also been friends at university. Yeah, well,

Unknown Speaker  20:06  
you got a

Unknown Speaker  20:10  
job running over money woman. Yeah.

Unknown Speaker  20:14  

Unknown Speaker  20:16  
So it's when they tell you that was my first boyfriend, Ronnie. Yeah, it

Unknown Speaker  20:23  
was really a shame or you could we could have been bribed. We could all be very rich now when I could still be working on the weekend.

Unknown Speaker  20:40  
Entertainment side of it know how hard it was to get in. But I mean, from the secretarial side, which is the way we got in it was very much a lot of girls did it just for pay money?

Unknown Speaker  20:52  
No, it was, it was a source. Of course, a lot of

Unknown Speaker  20:55  
the artists anyway have been called up have gone into the services. staff have been called

Unknown Speaker  21:08  
out and the only source of material was the only people like concert party.

Unknown Speaker  21:16  
People who are already in the BBC. He was good in the show last year or the year before.

Unknown Speaker  21:24  
But it's the old saying it's not.

Unknown Speaker  21:28  
And the age of the scriptwriter hadn't arrived. Yeah. Which is the point point made earlier it was interesting. The artists themselves their own material. Somebody just pushed it together. Yes. Possibly why on Monday night to date and things well magazine programme, yes. As opposed to being a coordinated variety show such right. So in other words, inspector homely, had his bitten six Walker had his bed, and the producer just put them together and let them do their own thing in

Unknown Speaker  21:59  
the park, but I was sad about the fact that that's where he didn't need him. This is what upset me daddy took the path and expected jack to come down on his opening, you know, the big opening, and Jack's gonna be there. And he just notionally called and said, No, I can't possibly beg. Other things to do. And he never came down. never came to the pub, because he didn't need it

Unknown Speaker  22:23  
was extraordinary, because I went to the Paris cinema to see some radio show, an audience thing. Many years ago, but also years after I had been in the BBC or been in contact with jack, and he was in this I mean, what it was, I can't remember. And when I came out, I mean, I was with friends who didn't know from Adam. And he spent his time telling them that if it hadn't been today, he wasn't he never, ever missed an opportunity. And I've heard him two or three times before on radio. And any chance he got Well, that was to say, Thank you, God. He kept saying if it hadn't been for chocolate, then I would say it must have been something that he could do. And it was very,

Unknown Speaker  23:09  
he was saying with his book, he did a very, very nice book. He has an acknowledgement that he gave to

Unknown Speaker  23:19  
the show's job what physically what venue?

Unknown Speaker  23:24  
Paris, but Bristol?

Unknown Speaker  23:25  
No, in Bristol Well, they use the custom for obese occasionally, but that was the church It was a small church. Large Church Road. new church I remember it was and still is. It still a studio in

Unknown Speaker  23:51  
any have and then in Bangor, which, whatever it was. I remember the only time they had a bombing thing. We were in the middle of the programme. Thank you. It was pretty strong. No.

Unknown Speaker  24:05  
No bang.

Unknown Speaker  24:07  
moved up to the Blitz.

Unknown Speaker  24:08  

Unknown Speaker  24:11  
I know.

Unknown Speaker  24:13  
We just carried out because it was live. Yeah. And I think it was Bangor's to me.

Unknown Speaker  24:18  
I think.

Unknown Speaker  24:19  
Thank you.

Unknown Speaker  24:21  
Did you do anything else?

Unknown Speaker  24:24  
After that, no, it was a week. So you weren't doing anything else? Yeah.

Unknown Speaker  24:27  
And then we went then we started doing personal palladium every year.

Unknown Speaker  24:34  
And when was that then we'll activate

Unknown Speaker  24:38  
mass before he won or something. Before the bombing were the Palladium was a bombing was causing

Unknown Speaker  24:44  
the Blitz was 40.

Unknown Speaker  24:47  
Mainly Not again.

Unknown Speaker  24:49  
Haven't we have to find period,

Unknown Speaker  24:51  
days after I arrived in London.

Unknown Speaker  24:53  

Unknown Speaker  24:56  
It was a quiet period and then suddenly one night, we had a And I learned and we all stayed on stage and kept the audience going, you know, saying and did our little bits to keep went into that show

Unknown Speaker  25:09  
at the Palladium, presumably, largely as little gamble. Oh, yes.

Unknown Speaker  25:14  
And it was a garrison theatre show they sort of lay down.

Unknown Speaker  25:16  
Yes. For for the troops to me. No question you make the move to Bristol. The immediate evacuation sounds very easy, but that sounds Oh, given general BBC conference, it

Unknown Speaker  25:41  
was easy. It was all pre arranged. It was just a question. Everybody pack up and go, Well,

Unknown Speaker  25:47  
I'm sure no.

Unknown Speaker  25:49  
no children, we

Unknown Speaker  25:50  
will. We will sit and settle we went to we went to death. And so that was the problem. We didn't see that transition the first few weeks. By the time we got done there. Because they've been running for a few weeks, but I'm sure it must have been horrendous. Well, I'm

Unknown Speaker  26:03  
sorry. What I meant was it wasn't such an upheaval, if you if they hadn't known what was going to happen. The family what they did. I mean, they're they put the furniture in storage. So everything and then that was bone, so we lost everything.

Unknown Speaker  26:21  
Oh, right. That's another another talking. I

Unknown Speaker  26:23  
mean, that was that was the easy part as far as you'd have the guys come in and take it up and

Unknown Speaker  26:28  
take it, but you're talking about the BBC been? Yes. Yes. That's right,

Unknown Speaker  26:37  
and keep the programmes running. I

Unknown Speaker  26:38  
mean, that was the hardest. But one thing that always amused me about it was when eventually we moved from the Bristol place to Western Superman, Western Superman up to North Wales to Bangor. And there's a man called Emily watts at the time was in charge of all the meds and he was in charge of settling everybody in houses. And he said one day the biggest headache was this Shadwell family because everybody else had their children evacuated. Couples, you know, but it was you know, four daughters and a dog difficult for him to ever get us out anywhere.

Unknown Speaker  27:15  
Did you know him like he was then I was on because when I went there

Unknown Speaker  27:20  
was because I was I forgotten his walk.

Unknown Speaker  27:23  
So I'm quite quite senior on level

Unknown Speaker  27:29  
one doing work is playtime. In fact, he pretty much

Unknown Speaker  27:42  
he switched over

Unknown Speaker  27:46  
to Python with him

Unknown Speaker  27:50  
he had been production management in Motion Pictures before the war to being a production manager. That's

Unknown Speaker  27:57  
because I was very young

Unknown Speaker  28:00  
and one that I had no idea I don't have a

Unknown Speaker  28:05  
connection. I don't

Unknown Speaker  28:08  
I didn't know him other than my executive. It was the bane of one's life to some extent. My ad a free tool that was just recently come out on the BBC.

Unknown Speaker  28:26  

Unknown Speaker  28:28  
hierarchy classroom.

Unknown Speaker  28:33  
But I went to work for him as an assistant when I was really that the shorthand typist I mean, I went in on that school, but it was one like the army the programme was I mean, I've never seen so many files on papers for a promo

Unknown Speaker  28:50  
thing was in triplicate and everything never stopped you because that's how he

Unknown Speaker  28:55  
runs it. One of the aspects of the BBC was always fascinated me is their nomenklatur the way they reduce every one to M form of initial never great status and great reassurance.

Unknown Speaker  29:10  
That was a very funny story on that one in Bangor, Maine. People were just as you saying I mean was dg for the general DVM director variety and they suddenly fell everybody was giving themselves initials, whether deserved or otherwise. So they sent the director around saying only the initials for heads of department and heads of programmes which had been allocated must be used. So one of I can't remember the name of the director but he put the started putting his name and it may have been john Sherman, I think but pbp after it. And this went on for a while eventually while the administrative people sat back and said What is this PvP is not on our list. This is it's just poor bloody producer.

Unknown Speaker  29:55  
Yes. Who is actually working though you for at this point. goes to school.

Unknown Speaker  30:00  
She was at school in Bangalore. Yes. Yes.

Unknown Speaker  30:04  

Unknown Speaker  30:06  
Joan is working

Unknown Speaker  30:08  
hands with you You started the beat before she was ended. Oh, yes. Yes. It started in Bangor

Unknown Speaker  30:15  
is I went and thought you know, I I went I was Sheila worked for Bangor University. And I went because I used to go to my supervisors Did you buy a commercial college I went to the bank of commercial clubs to do my secretarial. I went and worked for the in the School of Agriculture provide University. And I was said I will not work. I don't want to know that. And things. So I had this thing I wanted to be independent I didn't want to do because daddy was doing it in Jones in it. I just, I want to be something different. And eventually I began to complain and complain about what was going on in this department and daddy came home and said there's a notice up on the board. They're desperate for secretaries. shorthand typist. So I put your I've put your name and you're having an interview coming up next week for you. So I said oh my goodness. So I went for this interview with Chris Ferguson. And was put to work for I think a Cavendish first I went to one way and work for Cavendish. She was doing some

Unknown Speaker  31:35  
doing before she got her own spot. Well, before before we know she'd have the Cavendish three.

Unknown Speaker  31:42  
Yes. Well, this was some sadness for she

Unknown Speaker  31:45  
came on the keys

Unknown Speaker  31:49  
to her own programme.

Unknown Speaker  31:49  
Yes, yes. Well, that's what she was doing. And I worked for her for a bit but not terribly long, because I went on there and I went on to but she had her own new.

Unknown Speaker  31:58  
That's interesting for me to announce.

Unknown Speaker  31:59  
I mean, Yes, she did. Except, I

Unknown Speaker  32:01  
mean, given the wartime conditions, you're locked into one place.

Unknown Speaker  32:05  
But she might have been part of but I definitely was in the room with with kcap Nish and then I went to him and I wants to do work as plater and he took

Unknown Speaker  32:14  
marvellous they didn't realise just started as

Unknown Speaker  32:19  

Unknown Speaker  32:24  
give us an idea of losing conditions and pay Yes, how much do cheap food was like all those things living at the time? Well, the pay

Unknown Speaker  32:34  
was good compared with with local pay because it was still like a lump in the back because that's why you joined because I was earning more than she was. So we got the London side of it and remember how much it was four pounds a week? No

Unknown Speaker  32:48  
it was nothing as high as

Unknown Speaker  32:52  
we decided we wanted to go in and live we'd added something and we decided you know we'll be removed from the scene at the BBC singers and all these people weren't hadn't been putting a wall in digs and we were asking them and they were paying two pounds something today was I wasn't living so clearly because we were only four and we were wondering if we would have enough if we did this

Unknown Speaker  33:17  
big nose I mean

Unknown Speaker  33:18  
if we went into deep so that's how I remember that I think it was around that that if I remember rightly about four in 1970 4041 years 1414 Yeah,

Unknown Speaker  33:32  
I finally got to 14 as a train

Unknown Speaker  33:39  
to pass talks a lot

Unknown Speaker  33:48  
about 30 Bob as a secretary.

Unknown Speaker  33:51  
We did we did did

Unknown Speaker  33:53  
well they'll give you

Unknown Speaker  33:58  
go back and say wait

Unknown Speaker  34:00  
a second pre

Unknown Speaker  34:01  
register agreements.

Unknown Speaker  34:03  

Unknown Speaker  34:03  
What was it

Unknown Speaker  34:06  
What was the canteen? What do you have to eat?

Unknown Speaker  34:09  
Just accept the canteen? I think because it was there and there was nowhere else to eat, accept them. British was a British restaurant.

Unknown Speaker  34:21  
There was one in

Unknown Speaker  34:23  
42 British restaurants.

Unknown Speaker  34:25  
Well, I probably didn't move back to

Unknown Speaker  34:26  
I think all that sort of middle period.

Unknown Speaker  34:32  
But it wasn't it was interesting. I think the canteen situation that took it home. I mean, people think that you were starving. It wasn't he was starving during the war. I think we all agree it was just dullsville. I mean, he got so tired of not being able to choose from a manual and so on. But the interesting thing I thought it was was certainly canteen at Bangor when you look back on it, but the people who in a small room who was sitting there and it was all the if Mark trout, Ted khatma and Ted Kevin I picked up some of his characters in the canteen one was the girl's name was Fiona, the real girl, Poppy Cooper, coffee pecan, and he picked up because we used to sit with her and she was very grand family and she wouldn't be carrying all the time, right like this. And we were all worried that she would recognise how people far from Oh, she never did. She said one day very upset. Somebody said puppy poop are supposed to be me and

Unknown Speaker  35:37  
the owner was worked for Harry pepper. And she was the Plunkett family. Really, I worked with him as he Fiona and I worked together because really Fiona worked for Harry pepper. And I worked for Donna song. And they both shared the same office and we shared the same work. It was just for the same.

Unknown Speaker  35:58  
Was there a great many theatres around?

Unknown Speaker  35:59  
There was Oh, yes,

Unknown Speaker  36:00  
there was her friend who's now lady and she's terribly turned around the other man who does all the conservation in Parliament and everywhere, Lord and Lady anyway, they were all what we call the Chelsea set and they were the dabs in the coming out. Oh, yes, they I will say they were the ones who worked

Unknown Speaker  36:19  
for Peter money. It really was. I

Unknown Speaker  36:21  
mean, it was

Unknown Speaker  36:22  
also for the glory of saying

Unknown Speaker  36:26  
but they weren't on programmes. I mean, they got all the productions

Unknown Speaker  36:31  
Daddy, presumably a telephone someone. Nigel's and Jeremy's

Unknown Speaker  36:38  
on that forget

Unknown Speaker  36:40  
money, though.

Unknown Speaker  36:43  
I mean, today's showers and traces Oh, I see. Jeremy has a bit later

Unknown Speaker  36:49  
because your central member

Unknown Speaker  36:50  
will not many male Johnson beats they had to have something wrong with them or you know, having been turned down for health reasons.

Unknown Speaker  37:01  
There is a bit Davis lyric from the war in I forgot the name of the room and I remember

Unknown Speaker  37:08  

Unknown Speaker  37:09  
stage pool and the crop

Unknown Speaker  37:15  
watering was

Unknown Speaker  37:16  
it in the absolute because I remember I was in the amateur dramatics. Very good you. It was a terrible job it was to find work to find the matinees. See, and the man who took the opposite juvenile lead had he had something like either the one line or one so you know he had been turned down because he just could not get the mailing. It was like that you

Unknown Speaker  37:48  
don't have real food.

Unknown Speaker  37:53  
That was when I was full. It was

Unknown Speaker  38:01  
lucky. I wonder Can we get a flavour of the BBC overall at this stage is it Curran, Banga? last last written? And

Unknown Speaker  38:17  
no. I was a very happy family situation. I've always wanted a BBC a lot of people thought of leaving BBC and then they would leave and come back to it because it was such a nice

Unknown Speaker  38:31  
that you say that about what the Operational Programme level? Would you say that was equally true of admin?

Unknown Speaker  38:37  
Let's see it was on.

Unknown Speaker  38:39  
I think throughout I think that the only trouble you ever had is again, with competition on the artists side. You know that part you will probably get people a little bit bitchy or what have you. But I think taking the level of going into a canteen, the cafeteria, there was always a very, very friendly atmosphere. Right through the years that I was with BBC I don't think you ever felt this is a horrid place to work and I felt I always thought it was extremely pleasant. And people I know who left Shirley stringer was while she left and went for some telephone job and she said within three weeks it was in tears and wanted to come back again. And that happened over and over with people who wanted to leave for more money because the BBC was not known for paying high wages. But it was a very, very pleasant place to work.

Unknown Speaker  39:29  
Artists weren't claimed to be contracted for long ish brushes on long periods. I shouted.

Unknown Speaker  39:40  
That the BBC rep which was

Unknown Speaker  39:42  
Yes, that's that's what I had in mind. There was a nucleus of people did a great

Unknown Speaker  39:48  
versatile and you could do what started as a

Unknown Speaker  39:52  
band chorus as well. Yeah,

Unknown Speaker  39:55  
I'm the chorus

Unknown Speaker  39:57  
department now.

Unknown Speaker  40:00  
They will issue a yes they would not, which eventually became the engineering school.

Unknown Speaker  40:06  
How about your dad's musicians they were evacuated.

Unknown Speaker  40:11  
And it was funny that the very first day that we went up to North Wales and nobody knew anybody up there at all, it's an awful feeling and I am new place. And I remember Muriel whatever there was a lead violinist and the orchestra. We knew her, you know, just to say, how do you do and everything. But we were took a walk along and bumped into him, we became, wow, how wonderful to see a familiar face, which happens to us the world over wherever we go. And that's again helped. Because in Bangor, we were sort of a community within a community. We

Unknown Speaker  40:41  
were outside bank because we're in a case called Pittman Ma. In fact,

Unknown Speaker  40:45  
we had to put this into a place that would take a cut

Unknown Speaker  40:51  
off, and of course, sales were Welsh speaking and they wouldn't speak English while we will together. Speak English to us now and again. The Welsh would speak Welsh all the time, we felt were very young, we were able to start picking up

Unknown Speaker  41:06  
when we first arrived. They were absolutely horrified that that time with the water and do you know all the guys the sounds to wear pants or trousers, you know? And of course, the locals wouldn't have dreamt of such a thing. And we were awful to wear these. Remember that your agenda feeding the locals?

Unknown Speaker  41:25  
is a wartime thing all over the country.

Unknown Speaker  41:34  
Oh, probably. I don't know. I think you didn't come to penguin. What I did. I was in Bangor. I know everything afterwards. I must say you weren't there.

Unknown Speaker  41:44  
Presumably lots of New Yorkers have been called up because a musician was not a reserved.

Unknown Speaker  41:48  
I don't think they were young enough for calling up most

Unknown Speaker  41:53  
of a fermion. Anyway. Yeah. So that was a sort of lucky break really good mature musicians. I mean, disruption in the orchestra. So

Unknown Speaker  42:04  
Stanley black. Now he was out there.

Unknown Speaker  42:06  
What do you feel? What did he conduct the review? He did eventually.

Unknown Speaker  42:11  
was a dancer was the dance.

Unknown Speaker  42:15  
Secretary, she was an absolute character.

Unknown Speaker  42:17  
Were these all separate? entirely separate? Or was there a crossover among the music?

Unknown Speaker  42:23  
There was something separate

Unknown Speaker  42:27  

Unknown Speaker  42:34  
that was just about focus drummer variety. That's right.

Unknown Speaker  42:36  
Why did the review orchestra?

Unknown Speaker  42:38  
I don't think

Unknown Speaker  42:38  
that is part of until we got back to London.

Unknown Speaker  42:41  
I think they have one pre war, as we said before they brought it vanished during the war. Yes. And it came back because I worked with Stanley and

Unknown Speaker  42:53  
Harry took over from Stanley who was conducted by Eric Robinson that was in the late 40s. Early 50s.

Unknown Speaker  43:00  
Eric Robinson conduct

Unknown Speaker  43:02  
Well, there he gets television. After greenbone

Unknown Speaker  43:08  
I didn't

Unknown Speaker  43:14  
take that as

Unknown Speaker  43:16  
a viewer question.

Unknown Speaker  43:17  
No who took this place?

Unknown Speaker  43:23  
Daddy's Presidente.

Unknown Speaker  43:25  

Unknown Speaker  43:27  
no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

Unknown Speaker  43:31  
Welshman listen to what have been the leader to go with your father. Thanks.

Unknown Speaker  43:37  
For Frank can tell can tell. Yeah,

Unknown Speaker  43:40  
well done. She

Unknown Speaker  43:45  
knows. The BBC at this stage really is the greatest patron of the arts in those countries, especially the only way it was a time to be reverted.

Unknown Speaker  43:58  
They died anyway, the beginning of the war. They were the greatest employers probably of musicians as indeed I think they always happen. Collectively.

Unknown Speaker  44:10  
Were the longer people was that bad? Yes.

Unknown Speaker  44:17  
Symphony Orchestra came down to Bristol. First of all, yes, yes.

Unknown Speaker  44:25  
Enormous logistics, accommodating everybody. I mean, they could 20 people in Symphony Orchestra. 20 cents of

Unknown Speaker  44:39  
the seat

Unknown Speaker  44:44  
is when he played the cello or who

Unknown Speaker  44:49  
played for so his name is Mr. Burton. He was an older man, but he was a wonderful character and he took us as kids to go and sing Ganga den, but because he played for the moon He knew how things were done. And he obviously was worried in case these kids were going to get upset at any point, you know, right at the end of Ganga didn't he's climbing up. And he goes, don't worry kids. He's on about a three foot stepladder and nothing's going to happen and we're all going, Oh, I ruined

Unknown Speaker  45:23  
then when we went up to Bangor, they obviously went to East

Unknown Speaker  45:27  
led drama department.

Unknown Speaker  45:30  
Simply also in Bedford

Unknown Speaker  45:35  
Miliband did quite a lot of broadcast

Unknown Speaker  45:38  
in the same studio.

Unknown Speaker  45:39  
Yes. Oh, that's

Unknown Speaker  45:40  
that's. So that's how you put them all

Unknown Speaker  45:44  
the time. good place to stop.

Unknown Speaker  45:46  

Unknown Speaker  0:01  
Right here we are on slide four. JOHN.

Unknown Speaker  0:06  
It's interesting to read in the books again. But your father in the orchestra nobody else involves worked ever so hard in 1940 because concurrently we're running ridiculous yet another book. Monday night to date. We're still running Yes. On Mondays obviously with it Mom Tuesday's live recorded. Robert was doing Mr. Marvel Come on Wednesdays and Thursday Henry Hall's guest night and songs on the shows. It's a heck of an output in in garrison Theatre on Saturdays with bandwagon that the new normal output from the variety department and all live. That's the interesting thing. So how does it affect you? You probably didn't see the old man. I didn't see very much of him because he was working all the time.

Unknown Speaker  0:55  

Unknown Speaker  0:58  
We were working the day he was

Unknown Speaker  1:00  
working. I think we took it for granted at 10 o'clock for rehearsals and Alfie landed rather like anyone else going off probably to an office. But he worked.

Unknown Speaker  1:09  
Well. That's interesting. Well, the show's recorded in the evening. Yes, I

Unknown Speaker  1:12  
forgot to say when did they start?

Unknown Speaker  1:14  
They weren't recorded. They were live. They went down live.

Unknown Speaker  1:19  
Some of them, did they

Unknown Speaker  1:22  
didn't they because they had to do a 16 inch acetate disc record.

Unknown Speaker  1:30  
In the day, 10 o'clock, break for lunch, rehearsing the line and break and then do the show.

Unknown Speaker  1:36  
But your point is that he was out a lot much true. And we would get we would usually have demos together in the evening.

Unknown Speaker  1:44  
Would he come home to the studio, which wasn't far away.

Unknown Speaker  1:47  
Especially in Bristol, it was very close to

Unknown Speaker  1:51  
Bangor, Maine nearly

Unknown Speaker  1:56  
it ma I was interested to read something I'd missed up before. Was it the first of the series. In fact, Shackleton and his orchestra presumably because Charles was doing something else and couldn't make it or whatever.

Unknown Speaker  2:09  
When did it start the first one? I

Unknown Speaker  2:10  
thought it was Bristol. The very the very first one was July? No. Not tonight. 39 9040 you've lost the place in Bristol. It was 1940 bangle that jack Hellman is banned the company the first show and on the series closed on the sixth of February 19 1420 days later Hilton produced the stage version when he would wouldn't be. So presumably your father took over after the after February 1940. Must have been a very short run that it's not very precise.

Unknown Speaker  2:54  
It's not because I'm pretty sure it must start at the first 139

Unknown Speaker  3:00  
in Bristol. We had 39, didn't it? Yes. September was a second series must have been early 1939.

Unknown Speaker  3:11  
And it must have done one before the war broke out

Unknown Speaker  3:13  
with Yes.

Unknown Speaker  3:14  
Just before. Yeah.

Unknown Speaker  3:18  
It was on a roll.

Unknown Speaker  3:21  
It was otherwise in good.

Unknown Speaker  3:23  
Now I did the show version and theatre version of it mark. I can't think it was named with a comedian little little fellow comedian. And we opened was supposed to open I think in Manchester and we've got a switch because of being an air raid. We opened somewhere else and then we went to Liverpool and I've got diptheria and I was out of the show and I was in there was in exactly hospital for six months. When I came out I did I did one of those Diggy Murdock shares what's really cold and much binding in the marsh. And they got a just sing a song which finished out for exactly like you and we will test it with a knife. Exactly.

Unknown Speaker  4:09  
ribbon providers have been so did you go to the malls? I'm sure they will

Unknown Speaker  4:21  
go back to London when they were the palace cinema.

Unknown Speaker  4:23  
Yes. That was much. Yeah, it was them for 10 years. That's

Unknown Speaker  4:28  
right. And that was 45 when we come back 4444

Unknown Speaker  4:36  
I remember going to garrison theatre regularly helping Jerome with anything and he was in Bristol.

Unknown Speaker  4:44  
And you're talking about Tommy Handley briefly earlier, and he was a strange and reserved gentlemen. I worked on a couple of strange little series of overseas ignaz with Geraldo and his orchestra we did in the car Interior theatre, but with a very reduced cost. It was only Tommy and five of the principals, jack and a few others. And it ran for about 30 or something. It was an attempt to do an overseas version of it, but they were really just rehashed things.

Unknown Speaker  5:17  
Tech have not come along because yeah,

Unknown Speaker  5:18  
Ted would you be around now because we knew the covenant was quite well Patrick

Unknown Speaker  5:28  
his wife who was very Scottish now I can't think of a name but the main thing we when you finish the show, we used to go over to what was the name of the club was it was alien Hall what was it for Portland Portland squares and it was the BBC channels through there just after the California Mr. Club thing you know,

Unknown Speaker  5:52  
turned us to the BBC closed Yes, it was right on the Langer moto

Unknown Speaker  5:58  
yes yeah.

Unknown Speaker  5:59  
Well we used to listen to

Unknown Speaker  6:01  
after the show afterwards which after it ma I got the why that in myself I'm Mr. garrison did around somewhere. And we used to go in the summer for some reason we went in there and have a drink was bringing those days But anyhow, we used to go in there have a drink. And Tommy used to rush out of it was the person and I think we were doing it. And as it's that man again was playing he put his rank out and get up there fast because it was cheaper to drink there. And he used to get the bus but imagine is finishing this big programme the whole country is listening to is that man again, he's very, very good and rushing out getting the bus department square. So if you go to the BBC plays never drink was cheaper. And he had this Secretary girlfriend rather plan of choice choice. choice. He used to take her up they

Unknown Speaker  7:01  
used to parent her genies wife didn't know that that

Unknown Speaker  7:06  
was a big deal. But he lived in the same flats that he's had some bridgestreet right. That was the same raincoat he has all those years is that Colombo? 10 kavner wrote his very first project for him for two pounds and he still did it remember the stock prices and Ted wrote that for him for two pounds at first you know and he never never paid it bring otherwise they never wrote us the same act.

Unknown Speaker  7:37  
All the rest of the costs jack jack train was probably the second biggest name.

Unknown Speaker  7:44  
liking him he was nice. And Dorothy summers he was a lovely she was very

Unknown Speaker  7:55  
harsh for you.

Unknown Speaker  7:58  
He was lovely.

Unknown Speaker  8:03  
Afraid you because I was friendly with Mary.

Unknown Speaker  8:06  
It wasn't the jersey pictures. It was nice to

Unknown Speaker  8:11  
see you so so Dino dovan.

Unknown Speaker  8:15  
American guy. Sam, scram.

Unknown Speaker  8:19  
Yes. Yes. Yes.

Unknown Speaker  8:24  
Model massive.

Unknown Speaker  8:27  
We still might find it. Anywhere Of course. Marry a phone.

Unknown Speaker  8:36  

Unknown Speaker  8:38  
How's the show put together?

Unknown Speaker  8:40  
Was it very rigorously scripted ahead of time or did a lot of

Unknown Speaker  8:45  

Unknown Speaker  8:47  
Family and that CNE

Unknown Speaker  8:51  
have a script session every week until kabanov halted most of the writing anyway.

Unknown Speaker  8:56  
Was it a home for us? I don't remember

Unknown Speaker  9:02  
them all turning the pages to get the sound so I think it might have been quite tight.

Unknown Speaker  9:15  
To call Francis Wilson Oh yes. was a very meticulous man. Yes. He

Unknown Speaker  9:18  
wanted to know

Unknown Speaker  9:22  
did happen in the show with Tommy through a lot of things that your dad

Unknown Speaker  9:25  
Yes, yes.

Unknown Speaker  9:26  
revolute purely and simply

Unknown Speaker  9:29  
as a chair for PhD going to say

Unknown Speaker  9:35  
Sydney key parameter.

Unknown Speaker  9:37  
Can I do now sir?

Unknown Speaker  9:39  
Yeah, Sydney, Sydney Keith was the same screen of course possible. Carry right we've mentioned Paula goes Bowling Green. This is Jesse Jackson. The orchestra did the feature spot in

Unknown Speaker  9:56  
yesterday with

Unknown Speaker  9:58  
either K or Well, in the early days all Paula green singing, and usually there's a song and then an orchestral piece

Unknown Speaker  10:07  
around the fire officer.

Unknown Speaker  10:12  
Gordon Jacobs to

Unknown Speaker  10:14  
send those another one.

Unknown Speaker  10:20  
Yes, half the Richardson

Unknown Speaker  10:24  
nevermind, nevermind. Yes. So the orchestra had a featured piece in the thing. Yeah, an enormous audience. I mean, the entire United Kingdom listened to it. And they did more or less for 10 years until Tommy died suddenly.

Unknown Speaker  10:38  
And the sayings are still around today. Really?

Unknown Speaker  10:43  
Oh, well, the style of things knocked on later into opposite of the writing of a gun show.

Unknown Speaker  10:48  
does influence wasn't a

Unknown Speaker  10:51  
British radio.

Unknown Speaker  10:53  
More catchphrases than any other show?

Unknown Speaker  10:56  
Probably. The announcer and all the others. Daddy pictures or something? Can't remember that. Anyway.

Unknown Speaker  11:03  
Can I show you

Unknown Speaker  11:04  
did it? Did it run longer than any other comedy series? No, really?

Unknown Speaker  11:08  
almost dead 10 years old Tommy. Yes, I didn't 49 it was still going then. And your father was still there. But we've overlapped with Miss Sheila joining the BBC. We've got your beginning. Yeah. And Bangor.

Unknown Speaker  11:29  
And in Bangor as well. I started working on their ministration section. I mean, we tried to stay with the dates or we

Unknown Speaker  11:41  
overlapped anyway and

Unknown Speaker  11:43  
then in terms of the show came down to London I was with overseas department which I always thought was funny when they said would you like to work for the Near East and I had to go for a board and the reason I wanted to get the job was because it was also an old first met and I went in completely unprepared to the board and they said which part of the Near East are you most interested in? I didn't know which country they're in by with well all of it always be interested in all the dairies. Oh wonderful. Then Sunday through and how about Turkey at all. Thank God I got a name. I got the job but I was always locked in Middle East intelligence section and I didn't even know what the Near East was. Yes. Then went from there East intelligence over to over. Yesterday was the US Department. I went out with a news professional match right straight from the Dayton house. Yes, I remember we went to Oxford Street where I was still with Nerys when I went to Oxford Street.

Unknown Speaker  12:53  
The BBC was still quite widespread still being in 1947 when I came back and went back to the BBC and came towards the Mizzou you with them we first met private was still would not and was still operating the studios we're still going to Bedford old and I'm still have the new service and the Latin American service 200 Oxford Street was still going strong with the rest of the North American service main and GIS costs push how's that always been there are certainly also the war with the European service is now the world's firms.

Unknown Speaker  13:36  
But I think older than I was really like a club.

Unknown Speaker  13:41  
Oh, it was wonderful before

Unknown Speaker  13:44  
we had to do

Unknown Speaker  13:46  
was secretary to administration to get the job she got me there. I was secretary to the administrative assistant is all BBC departments here. But I don't think she particularly liked I don't think I was really cut out for

Unknown Speaker  14:08  
filing properly she would keep referring back to her previous secretary. She was young enough to ride it not that he hit me until it's gradually started. Getting through about Jeannie being wonderful. A while to try and be God but it wasn't the same from his sound as if it didn't take to me something that's really one day that was a really nice job going up to

Unknown Speaker  14:35  
under Dr. Street.

Unknown Speaker  14:36  
It was all to do with music and artists and records now she thought I'd write like that. I was like yes, I would thank you ever since. Realising I was being given the all t bag is also found there. Was his favourite was the record the record programme. And really in those days you weren't given a number of boards or you didn't have enormous backgrounds and whatever. And I just, I just got this job and I waited with two smashing girls there, one of whom I'm still friends he was to this day. And it was all well, Oh, definitely wherever so busy. And we have to record up there. And we will walk out in terms and you make up these programmes, who was it get these letters, and they were the discs over there. And some of the announcers like to do they were sweet, but most of them read it and Jean Metcalf will always do and take some real interest in the programme as well. I met Jeanette Koshi, which is lovely. And I've just sat down at this desk and this table and typewriter and a pair of papers. And I thought Oh, I like that record. I'm wondering about what is written in for that. And what is a lovely a lovely note. So she's a beautiful girl very serious. And I heard her actually heard my own programming, her reading my script. And it was then that I stopped doing them because even I said Horace dropping the senior girl in the office, her head slowly turned around. It was beautiful BBC voicing. Now without reading every word I've written. Now we have a request for Lance coprocessor in Addis Ababa, and he has been telling us that he misses his mother's cooking and his mother's apple pie. So we're going to pay for you, Mom, I miss you.

Unknown Speaker  16:31  
Recorded by

Unknown Speaker  16:34  
missing mouse apple pie so much. And her voice started slowing down. We hope that

Unknown Speaker  16:43  
I missed your

Unknown Speaker  16:49  
time define lighting.

Unknown Speaker  16:54  

Unknown Speaker  16:59  
the job and everybody kept an eye on the script. before meeting, they do their own speaking.

Unknown Speaker  17:07  
But it was ever such a fun job. How

Unknown Speaker  17:11  
1947 48 your 200 offers free forces favourites. Hazel Well,

Unknown Speaker  17:16  
you I know. My dad left and everything in my life. Give me

Unknown Speaker  17:23  
my babies by then. Colleen was born in 4846. Once I was in there for 46 years I worked for Charles, Navy Lark and maybe not the beginnings of take it from here.

Unknown Speaker  17:44  
Jeff Parker Eric, Eric Barker.

Unknown Speaker  17:49  
chose to juice them.

Unknown Speaker  17:50  
Yeah. Huh.

Unknown Speaker  17:53  
Frank Neil came along. He came to Charles for the first time

Unknown Speaker  17:58  
writing writing.

Unknown Speaker  18:01  
The Frank came before Dennis he goes,

Unknown Speaker  18:03  
yes, first.

Unknown Speaker  18:08  
What was the other one? Well, the night Navy mixture, which is what I do here. With joy, it was with nickels. You're joining eventually.

Unknown Speaker  18:27  
Yes. Original to me. That's right. I

Unknown Speaker  18:29  
was I was

Unknown Speaker  18:36  
I started that with Charles. Yes.

Unknown Speaker  18:38  
And Sheila, you're still that old? No. You You moved to London. Right. And then to become house

Unknown Speaker  18:48  
master stayed in one place with us. We were in the eighth house all that time.

Unknown Speaker  18:53  
And Joan, you're too I

Unknown Speaker  18:55  
was touring. I was doing entertainment forces and then joined made a double act out with fielding. And then he became gentleman's I think was 40. So

Unknown Speaker  19:11  
we were married in 46. You're doing

Unknown Speaker  19:17  
the immediate post war period. Your father still PBC Yeah,

Unknown Speaker  19:21  

Unknown Speaker  19:21  
Those there until 4950.

Unknown Speaker  19:26  
You know,

Unknown Speaker  19:30  
I was married 46. And he was leaving the BBC then because I know at my wedding he said he there was quite a lot of publicity, which was bad off because he was he was leaving and it was a terrible decision for him. What's wrong?

Unknown Speaker  19:44  
Is that it? stayed with it. Not only No, no. Did he No, no,

Unknown Speaker  19:49  
no. No, he didn't because he I got married in 46. And he remember somebody else's name on it. Yes.

Unknown Speaker  20:01  
And Henry Hall wanted him our event is a great jackyled and then he went with somebody else that

Unknown Speaker  20:07  
would never ever get Hilton. No, no.

Unknown Speaker  20:12  
You're right.

Unknown Speaker  20:17  
No, we went with a guy that was running, you know,

Unknown Speaker  20:20  
it's like Macintosh or making something dreadful mistake he should he should have gone with Henry or we should have gone with jack. Yes,

Unknown Speaker  20:29  
she'd gone with anybody else. And the thing is almost the first day we had the person that goes green, which is a Jewish holiday. And imagine if they had the most expensive acts within for the first app. Put on the could have had a cheap first tab. So the most expensive first airbags, unbelievable. I mean, you shouldn't have got the message right there. It was awful disaster for him

Unknown Speaker  20:56  
later for this big circus.

Unknown Speaker  21:00  
Who was who put him into Scarborough though, which was relatively that was before that. It was the start of the big summer season stuff, particularly Scarborough, later on became all the great violin leaders wasn't it? So your dad pioneered that, that I want to promote

Unknown Speaker  21:22  
chalky golf and

Unknown Speaker  21:25  
I want to say satin

Unknown Speaker  21:26  
finished up itself, man. Well, the one next to it. What's it called? Leon See? Yes. That was his when he finished there. But I can't think of would have been discovered because he did quite a lot of seasons there. So Yes, you did. You do.

Unknown Speaker  21:39  
It's the worst decision he ever Oh.

Unknown Speaker  21:46  
I definitely want you to change your mother.

Unknown Speaker  21:49  
She pushed this

Unknown Speaker  21:50  
unfortunately. Oh really? was asleep woman for a woman had a woman friend. Not not? Well, she'd

Unknown Speaker  21:57  
been orchestral manager at the BBC. And that's

Unknown Speaker  22:00  
what he got. He was a

Unknown Speaker  22:02  
euphemism. She was a saint. And he got her job as orchestral manager or something. But

Unknown Speaker  22:10  
she was a BBC musicians who want to

Unknown Speaker  22:14  
work as extras when they were meant to be orchestras. I mean, she had the she had the power. And she could say there's a job for unit, firing and firing everything.

Unknown Speaker  22:24  
And she persuaded him or she

Unknown Speaker  22:28  
persuaded him because they didn't. Even still in those days, the BBC would frown upon any such relationship. Extra math accuracy. And so she persuaded him to sort of up and away so I need make 10 times as much more than it was.

Unknown Speaker  22:53  
In technical terms, frankly, I'm tilted over the BBC for it officer, I think been your father's last leader. And off he went into the great freelance world. Scarborough was a very big thing, wasn't it and established a whole string of people there after including a lot of broadcasts I'm not in your father's period, unfortunately, later on. As a result of is establishing the precedent of the floral Hall.

Unknown Speaker  23:27  
What what happened that before or

Unknown Speaker  23:29  
what? Well, they were literally summer concerts packed and we know where the resident orchestra where the resident orchestra yeah for the sample season. And later on and off with on death. My name is Tom, the violinist who followed your father, who became enormously popular and then did the Sunday Sunday show on the home service on Welsh islands. And then latterly Of course. It's

Unknown Speaker  24:06  
time to get jack bywaters

Unknown Speaker  24:07  
bed piano boy.

Unknown Speaker  24:08  

Unknown Speaker  24:14  
Was a public apology on the wall knowing well. We'll come back. Anyway. That was a thing.

Unknown Speaker  24:33  
She comes forward she got caught up

Unknown Speaker  24:35  
in Higgledy Piggledy, that's why we'll come back on your careers in a minute. But let's continue with dad because I remember then having met deaths and that started in association. That's the right word.

Unknown Speaker  24:56  
Not the next.

Unknown Speaker  24:58  
He tied himself in With with Tom Arnold and the Russian state circus that started happening over here. It was marvellous at Wembley, the first couple of years, and then it wouldn't be later on. And we got to see them and they were quite wondrous. Don't think he totally enjoyed doing

Unknown Speaker  25:20  
it wasn't really

Unknown Speaker  25:23  
attended. It was

Unknown Speaker  25:33  
a wonderful town MacKinlay, which of course there's always a bore anyhow. And the you know, doing the thing and the dog act is on act. So, you know, the London doodle exam didn't like this and suddenly vanishes. Jazz chows Look, and he's gonna look down there around a lambda. And you know, the the piece that goes around the ring, well, two of the dogs are having a lovely time up there, one zombies. Whatever you call it. He says

Unknown Speaker  26:09  
he's supposed to wash his lung.

Unknown Speaker  26:28  
dogs do it. Yes,

Unknown Speaker  26:29  

Unknown Speaker  26:32  
Donald Pitts. Now, that was a period when he couldn't come back, your father could have come back as a big Radio Star again.

Unknown Speaker  26:43  
That's right, and then come back

Unknown Speaker  26:45  
radio. And then the Paris concerts, which I remember just standing down the road, the Cuban Empire

Unknown Speaker  26:54  
came back from

Unknown Speaker  26:57  
now before we went, but it was a pure Bobby Sox thing. I was piers was concerned. Remember it? I mean, it made me delayed aged ladies. He was gonna scream at the police officers did.

Unknown Speaker  27:13  
Coming back and I remember meeting him. He had a poodle dog or something and then away, obviously hadn't been faithful to his wife or whatever they had came home. And you bent down to say hello to the dog in the morning. Because you're gonna have to go to the hospital hired also known again. Last night, I need to do that. So I don't know. I just you know, that's the last I knew about Oh, look, babbling

Unknown Speaker  27:44  
used to be repartee, between him and your father. And that almost could have brought Charles back into being the sort of character that he hadn't been before. But it didn't happen for a reason. But it was an enormously popular show. Remember, as a radio series. and thereafter. I can't really recall what happened. I mean, they became regular gigs. And by the time normal things, particularly you do, he didn't I showed him and then he do some of the other. I

Unknown Speaker  28:14  
know, he never did the

Unknown Speaker  28:17  
star he knew a maid was a man in the desert song, you know? Oh, john Hanson, john Hanson. Put him up in Scarborough. And He then made his name for what he never stopped mentioning David's name always every time he did Dicky Valentine, whatever.

Unknown Speaker  28:41  
Your father, I think, suggested he changed his name. Now that's garbage. So somewhere along the line in one of the earlier programmes, Dickie Valentine, whatever his name was named, not Valentine. Did a broadcast and I think the father suggested that they'd be James's name, which he did. And then later on course, Ted Heath picked him up and he became probably one of the best bands singers will ever had in this country until he killed himself in his own motor car. sad, sad, sad.

Unknown Speaker  29:16  
Picture. So

Unknown Speaker  29:20  
we've all sat down in different places. Roy, do you want to go back and do the sociology of the other thing to

Unknown Speaker  29:32  
change because we

Unknown Speaker  29:32  
were really working

Unknown Speaker  29:36  
with a guy who then partner

Unknown Speaker  29:39  
during, right,

Unknown Speaker  29:41  
and that was changing, of course, where it was changing. So there's

Unknown Speaker  29:46  
four reasons to think there's television really hasn't taken hold yet. It begins to just be the voice coming by

Unknown Speaker  29:58  
the change of attitudes and changes

Unknown Speaker  30:00  
Labour government and your times looking back times the rough

Unknown Speaker  30:09  
times and bills

Unknown Speaker  30:14  
I think to young people benefited at that time because it was still everything controlled price wise I mean, closing you couldn't get anything over 20

Unknown Speaker  30:26  
was available wasn't it?

Unknown Speaker  30:28  
was still Russian so really you're spending money and things like that because you couldn't spend it on clothing and food as much as today.

Unknown Speaker  30:39  
What did one do? What was the social activities that you remember?

Unknown Speaker  30:48  
Now I do remember that as well.

Unknown Speaker  30:56  
A couple of dancing and dancing. Room dancing was still in I mean, it was the Mecca and Tottenham Court Road we went to a couple of times to the karma was

Unknown Speaker  31:08  
was a person

Unknown Speaker  31:11  
Yes, it wasn't.

Unknown Speaker  31:15  
afternoon tea tray at the matinee. It wasn't a young person.

Unknown Speaker  31:22  
We used to get tickets we went to the Oklahoma Valley

Unknown Speaker  31:34  
in New York.

Unknown Speaker  31:37  
I went to Oklahoma after I was married and I was married and 46

Unknown Speaker  31:44  
years after

Unknown Speaker  31:47  
Yes, yes. But that's the period we're talking about what

Unknown Speaker  31:52  
kind of race suddenly

Unknown Speaker  31:53  
there was the influx of the American music

Unknown Speaker  31:59  
sound changed everything well, you

Unknown Speaker  32:01  
know South Pacific leaders to remember reviews will now switch to a very private thing. But you will.

Unknown Speaker  32:20  
gondola came in, they all started changing the theatre we went up to

Unknown Speaker  32:24  
those sorts of Interestingly though, a hell of a lot of people in them who later and only a few years later became great radio people by go round the home people.

Unknown Speaker  32:33  
Yes, yes, that's right. They

Unknown Speaker  32:38  
want you to master people like that three, Ken Coleman. Kenneth Williams, we sold them all in those Monday 4740

Unknown Speaker  32:50  
views and

Unknown Speaker  32:52  
radio costs in the 50s and we went

Unknown Speaker  32:55  
to a loss of sales. Yes, but

Unknown Speaker  32:59  
it was sort of felt as if it was later on Shiva. That was suddenly

Unknown Speaker  33:02  
because remember when we were at old and I'm still when I went up to Obama that's when we did that

Unknown Speaker  33:08  
seem to change and then john doe john and i went we used to have the Palladium up in the gods we couldn't afford that where they could come in there.

Unknown Speaker  33:18  
Yes. Where are you going to school? The legitimate theatre?

Unknown Speaker  33:22  
Not much Really? Like

Unknown Speaker  33:25  
I was saying my clue you

Unknown Speaker  33:29  
performing anyway with the cop drama group. Now it's a group and well with aerial players, BBC. ITV, I'd

Unknown Speaker  33:37  
have with the immediate news, if you remember. series, absolutely glorious seasons. It was then the new Theatre on sir Martin Zane, Neil Vic, with Olivier and Redgrave and

Unknown Speaker  33:52  
I went to see the long

Unknown Speaker  33:55  
stay they did. Those I remember trivial play.

Unknown Speaker  34:00  
Right. Interesting to see. I didn't go to this much seriously with you did quite a lot.

Unknown Speaker  34:06  
And I didn't because I was having my family. I don't do that. To do I terminated my association

Unknown Speaker  34:13  
with the BBC. But on a relatively high note with regard to departments and some very good shows. Yeah.

Unknown Speaker  34:20  
Oh, yes. Oh, yes. It

Unknown Speaker  34:22  
was one of the great producers of all time, Charlie Mac. To work for to

Unknown Speaker  34:30  
talk about him because I don't know historical figure.

Unknown Speaker  34:35  
He was delightful to work for as a sculpt with a lovely sense of humour because he'd been trained as a solicitor.

Unknown Speaker  34:42  
How did you get into probiota? How he did tell me it was

Unknown Speaker  34:48  
always very, very dapper level. That's why I saw his admin site. No,

Unknown Speaker  34:57  
he wasn't related to john Maxwell was the VoIP ABC.

Unknown Speaker  35:03  
Hello. He came in completely from

Unknown Speaker  35:05  
outside john Maxwell's Scott solicitor. Major power in the motion picture.

Unknown Speaker  35:13  
Marks breathe in more than I haven't. I've never said

Unknown Speaker  35:18  
this surprising if he hadn't worked was

Unknown Speaker  35:21  
yes. But he, as I say he was he was married was it was a trauma. Unfortunately he was becoming ideal nearly with the break was it all fizzled out. And he's much

Unknown Speaker  35:37  
as he was,

Unknown Speaker  35:38  
how he got into radio? No,

Unknown Speaker  35:42  
I don't remember. Because he told me he was always finding out because he, he was he definitely was a solicitor and his father, I think was a solicitor. Because when he was going through all this trouble I remember his father was doing what was the legal side for him, I think we're helping him when he was such a nice man.

Unknown Speaker  36:03  

Unknown Speaker  36:05  
the programme we always had to have, he was he was, as sometimes those in a way to kind of show business because we had to book a couple of artists each week to fill two spots. And there were people that really I wouldn't have had more than once, you know, but the thought this person say would be so nice that he'd say, well give us a break for five weeks. And I'll put you know, he was really which was a nice trait, but it didn't help the show don't

Unknown Speaker  36:34  
tell Willebrand crushers in those days, it was

Unknown Speaker  36:39  
very, very low key. And the pass out the sad me always was the artists coming in hoping for work. I always found that very hard to to, you know, coming in and either come and take you out to lunch or come and come and see you. And is Charles in there. And I hated that. I

Unknown Speaker  36:58  
thought it was an awful worse now, isn't it?

Unknown Speaker  37:01  
It certainly hasn't changed. Me,

Unknown Speaker  37:04  
I found that hard to take because I felt sorry. For my days, I felt sorry. And I used to think I'll put up I could open the book and say is you can have a date. You know,

Unknown Speaker  37:13  
I want you to take me back to him. I forgotten there's an act now he became an agent and he probably never Name something like risk of certain risk. He was at risk. And he used to do an act with his wife. I remember that. Well, anyhow, but the story goes that he's walking out of court road, and he's got a shopping bag in each hand. And so you know, it's another drone. He says, What are you doing and everything. Once he got there? He says I've got Finsbury Park in this ad and I've got the mechanism that was precisely Williams

Unknown Speaker  37:53  
the drops

Unknown Speaker  37:56  
still like that. Oh, still having to do the Bing

Unknown Speaker  38:01  
try to come up to match. The Barbie I did

Unknown Speaker  38:07  
was did you do Navy mixture which Oh, yes, yes. Because that's what derive them developed into Take it from me.

Unknown Speaker  38:16  

Unknown Speaker  38:17  
we went up to

Unknown Speaker  38:19  
entertain the Navy with Navy mixture. You went up to not Grenada begins with an Ah Oh, yes. Yes, yes. We and I went on one of the tours. It was great.

Unknown Speaker  38:34  
Did you love

Unknown Speaker  38:37  
I was always was in it. JACK Watson used to sort of compare.

Unknown Speaker  38:45  
Damn, he went funny. Oh, sorry.

Unknown Speaker  38:53  
I know some notes on one. Yes. Ah, yes. No smoking. So yes, no smoking and Hubert.

Unknown Speaker  39:01  
Hubert was jack when he was Oh, that's right. Yes. And his father.

Unknown Speaker  39:13  
His name of around licorice.

Unknown Speaker  39:15  
Smoking, yes. But jack turned into a very financial

Unknown Speaker  39:21  
centre. Somebody else is suffering from the result. We've got the wrong one, obviously.

Unknown Speaker  39:25  
Take it from me. Eventually, of course, spawn Barry Tucker's a writer. That was one went on to the with multifilament and around the home and sort of bridge the gap between the goon show and take it from here and started the more modern kind of writing. much maligned character took I mean, he was a terrible stand up comic. He must have been on tour when you were on tour. He took Yeah, yeah, it seems the BBC as a hobby digressing at the very top. Nevertheless, it took point was making historically. Yes in terms of writing. Very clever writer. He's done all the author points of view on television for donkey's years, not not anymore. He just came to the weekend in fact, and was a year as head of light entertainment and made no impact whatsoever. Exactly. I had a lot of very funny memos. I'm sure we'd like back one of these days,

Unknown Speaker  40:23  
attributed nothing on the boxes. He

Unknown Speaker  40:25  
absolutely told me as a writer

Unknown Speaker  40:28  
saying to me the News Quiz, he's brilliant.

Unknown Speaker  40:31  
Yeah, yes, fabulous. personality. Anyway, an interesting digression into the career repairing but

Unknown Speaker  40:39  
Hazel could have given up being she could be on a different market. Because you could have gone to the other thing you could

Unknown Speaker  40:44  
have gone Oh, yes. Oh, yes. Oh, yes. Because I went Yes, I passed to the Royal Academy and was asked to go back for a scholarship

Unknown Speaker  40:53  
or even musically it was the only one who stayed with music.

Unknown Speaker  40:59  
Film without merit No,

Unknown Speaker  41:01  
no, never we've never regretted I've never regretted anything in life is such a happy life is

Unknown Speaker  41:08  
because I was sick to death of jealousy because I wanted to do remember Oh, I want to do that.

Unknown Speaker  41:16  
No, I just had so much happens

Unknown Speaker  41:18  
Sheila you move to a member quick period with you when you moved away from house with the facility to the BBC we've ever had before. And they was fairly unique

Unknown Speaker  41:30  
and need for it was it? Yes,

Unknown Speaker  41:32  
I think that was because most mostly it was radio newsreel at the time meeting so many arrangements making for them for reporters. Likely programme. Is it still going on? Yes, it's

Unknown Speaker  41:44  
still there.

Unknown Speaker  41:46  
But that needed so many things.

Unknown Speaker  41:49  
That rings out still. But

Unknown Speaker  41:55  
she was telling us

Unknown Speaker  42:00  
So anyway, I think that was a need. That was really a newsreel because there's a mic to programme and I had to have a cause, you know, booked for them are recording cars on all the arrangements made and find a programme for them for every night in a different thing. So one of the Jobs was looking through the newspaper each day and find interesting bits and then find the person involved and be able to get the recording car to them. So that we did the radio newsreel. And of course, the department grew because other departments started phoning in and saying, like, What's My Line? Can you find us people for that kind of programme and so on and so forth. It was a lovely job. Search,

Unknown Speaker  42:37  
early research.

Unknown Speaker  42:40  
early research goes on this very day, they buy the morning papers, and come up with a programme for that evening.

Unknown Speaker  42:47  
And very interesting from the point of view of to see you do not believe anything any longer that you read in the newspapers, when you've done that job for a while, you know, you start chasing up some article, I remember that one that stuck in my mind was the article I think that was even gotten the telegraph that they found a cure for cancer of the throat at Hammersmith hospital. I found that when I got through to the when I got through to the doctor where he was beside himself with anger, he said we have a lineup round this block of people thinking they're going to be cured. That it is true beyond all measure is that the ratios have reported this, he said we have got this new machine and we hope that we will be able to in the future someday help people but he's at the moment. There's no cure for it at all the paper prints there's a cure for cancer of the throat and you can imagine what's happening. At first he didn't even want to speak to me. And then I said, Well, I really sympathise man, I'm terribly sorry to have trouble doing that. But this time, I said maybe we could do a story the other way round. But the newspapers printing things beforehand. But they didn't take up on that they were just absolutely frantic down there. And that was just one of the things that happened time and time again, when you found to the source and you found the truth, a grain of truth in the story and no less than to make it headline news. And so when people say I read this on the paper, I go haha. They asked much worse, much worse.

Unknown Speaker  44:20  
And everybody's got to make a story that makes their job. Yes.

Unknown Speaker  44:23  
Well, they consider it their job.

Unknown Speaker  44:29  
To answer to all of us in actt, actually was when we twice we've been on two big strikes. And it's horrible when you're on strike and you sit at home and you listen to every news bulletin, don't you? And you keep bringing your friends up. You hear no news in there. So you run to the screen. And you hear the most awful things about yourselves and what you voted for what you haven't heard what's happening what is not true. And it's not true to open their eyes anonymously didn't get to other people's

Unknown Speaker  45:00  
The strikes the way everything is reported.

Unknown Speaker  45:04  
I mean, that's why I say for the Port Royal Family, I mean, it might be a great position to be able to deny

Unknown Speaker  45:12  
the correct colour what you will poor is not a word I would use.

Unknown Speaker  45:18  
But it's terrible. I think people say, Oh, how they envy somebody like that. But when you think of it, you've got everything in life. You've got every kind of antiques that you want, you've got every kind of building that you want, you've got every boat, every plane, every jewel,

Unknown Speaker  45:35  
sitting in front of you. And

Unknown Speaker  45:37  
I mean, you've got everything. It's it's I really admire Charles from the point of view that he's taken up a course on the environment because he will say you can do that and he's got something to work for and fight for others and turn up I mean that figureheads may have to open children's hospitals and so on. But when you look at their diary, and that was a job we had to do in facilities every day, we had to enter in the Royal diary for coverage by the Royal reporter Godfrey Tolbert, marvellous man

Unknown Speaker  46:05  
who writes letters to telegraph does

Unknown Speaker  46:09  
for him. You know, that sort of thing. And you look at it and you go, What a bore? I mean, the terrible things there's nothing like ball Grove in the house. Well, you know, they got to sit there, and you think it must be to be able to throw a wig or a moustache and go away incognito.

Unknown Speaker  46:33  
On your own I

Unknown Speaker  46:33  
mean, I think it's

Unknown Speaker  46:34  
the worst job in the entire world is dreadful. No touring now, you know, this period we're talking about? Yes. 849 30 and there abouts with guy. And what is I suppose the dining hall of the variety? Exactly. Television is beginning to build up

Unknown Speaker  46:55  
the television programme called shop on the corner.

Unknown Speaker  47:00  
Oh, that was much later though. Just to refresh your memory. Yes, ITV hasn't happened yet was still 49

Unknown Speaker  47:10  
records so we'll change tapes.

Unknown Speaker  0:01  
To change or want something ago now we don't have to go straight to a lot.

Unknown Speaker  0:04  
It's about the climate. In the BBC, the managerial climate. One was curious about what might be going on in the high reaches. I

Unknown Speaker  0:13  
actually, yes. The thing is all I knew about it was that you always had to be terribly careful and saying that the BBC was independent of government. And that was well, I'm not saying that anytime things became sticky. You had to say it was it was definitely, what was it at the time the Treasury gave it to grant, but they have no no overseeing of BBC at all. Now, when you really got into it too far, there was an awful lot, seeing by government, I mean, just in the sense that there were rules and regulations that whether you could or could not do this was really a government regulation. But we always had to be terribly careful in stating it was BBC policy. And you could not say that the policy was formulated by government regulation. So those were just some of the small things that I think you came across in that situation. Were

Unknown Speaker  1:07  
you aware of the telephone ringing? And

Unknown Speaker  1:10  
now it's just one moment the minister? No, no, no, I wasn't in a situation like that. But I think the Well, generally, I think that the higher ups situation was, is covered really at the top, I think as it comes down, nobody and the sort of Second level Third level is complete. I mean, they're aware of it, but they don't, they couldn't put their finger right now. I'm talking about what it is today. I have no idea at all.

Unknown Speaker  1:37  
This is the 15th.

Unknown Speaker  1:40  
And then was the rigorously structured hierarchical? Yes.

Unknown Speaker  1:47  
That's who will qualify this as well, we probably have the best dg ever sorry, and Jacob. And when you were then in the duty room, that's a bH. You obviously have dealings with the hierarchy accompany him on with the rest of the plant. And, yes, yes, he was a very nice

Unknown Speaker  2:08  
man, he was very reasonable. And I don't think we ever had any sort of heavy handed this. So as I remember, I mean, we were the centre of where the public film did. And everything happened. And also, if there were any important visitors, they came into the Juju room off the

Unknown Speaker  2:23  
drinks, and suddenly

Unknown Speaker  2:25  
this this book meant all the duty officers will have to the big drawing room wonderful case, drawing old fashioned furniture, long case clocks and long grid heavy desks. We know the job now this case, but what exactly did you do? I was just a secretary. And where there were two duty officers and two secretaries and we worked on shift.

Unknown Speaker  2:44  
You say it wasn't anything new, but it never is heavy handed? Do you know

Unknown Speaker  2:49  
that the to do?

Unknown Speaker  2:53  
I think it was probably the duty officers were very carefully picked and selected in their jobs. And they were all like many pockets. Cool.

Unknown Speaker  3:01  
COMM 41,

Unknown Speaker  3:03  
the Mr. Baxter

Unknown Speaker  3:06  
service people

Unknown Speaker  3:10  
are very much aware of how to deal with the public very much. And they had to work two jobs in sectors. I never got it right. You

Unknown Speaker  3:24  
don't have to visit. And we have to Oh, I hated it hands on. And every morning I put it off and you get to four o'clock then from the duty officer say, Oh, we have encounters report today. And it was anything relating to BBC at all had to be typed out and 12 copies at the very least, it had to go to the dg and the German and everybody else that was one of our jobs. And I got to lose the MPs who had a niggling feeling about the opportunity to go dig dig, dig dig, and I have to type it out. It raises a replica to help us dancing again.

Unknown Speaker  4:06  
Was this the apogee of the BBC bureaucracy? Was it the high point was what three admin to

Unknown Speaker  4:13  
the admin assistant to the system? Yeah, right. Yes. And those

Unknown Speaker  4:17  
are all very high. I

Unknown Speaker  4:19  
got paid more money to be a local illustration.

Unknown Speaker  4:21  
Oh, yes, yes. Because that's what daddy used to go about. mad about when he went to ABC that the programme people got paid so little and he said he wants plucked up courage because he wasn't a nasty man. He went to a news department and he said, Well, I'm sorry, Shadwell, at this moment in time who reached your ceiling? He said, Well, I have this dreadful claustrophobia, and I

Unknown Speaker  4:48  
didn't get any good answers. To duty tonight because of the important people who come into the room with an important Guess all ambassadors or, or museums or kings, queens, whatever.

Unknown Speaker  5:04  
They only have beefy on one occasion. Oh, the African chieftain

Unknown Speaker  5:11  
officer Just got off duty they still have to because they worked all night and slept on 70 hours off in the afternoon. And as is a double take as a dorm room did all these people in non white dresses walked in with things or whatnot. And then they wanted to see run the BBC. And of course I never knew anything. So I will always ring him. Thank God he was on duty. And I said, You've got to help me this. I don't know what they're talking about. They want to see something in the BBC. So he came down and he walked me on is very pleasant. Good afternoon, gentlemen. He said while trying to suss who they were and who was important. And then his face broke into it with that he couldn't pull himself together, because he's

Unknown Speaker  5:52  
putting a finger

Unknown Speaker  5:53  
that was the only only you'll be able to show the gentleman. I think it was it was a neon

Unknown Speaker  6:22  
beauty room. There was a sector in UT where he was with Douglas Willis was a reporter with BBC News. And he was a good full length poem. And he phoned up room and served the King of Jordan was coming to visit well now it was as you know, the job of the secretary always to phone back immediately and confirm it was not a prime minister. And she admitted to do it and she sent this report they got down to muscle they wouldn't think florist people my students they had flowers decked and of course what kinds of colours come in at eight o'clock in the evening the dg and everybody in the whole of the front hall was all ready because they waited and waited eventually get back and said to the girl who did you phone back she hadn't and of course, Dumbo has confessed because he said the girl was in such trouble in such a state about it so he confessed that it was his doing he nearly got fired.

Unknown Speaker  7:18  
Yes very nicely hidden costs.

Unknown Speaker  7:21  
Remember that? Yes. Yes. So did a lot of call to conferences and thank you for this yes for the unusual

Unknown Speaker  7:31  
thing happened to me was it was very nice to the opposite. It was It was great. Pierce's day was what we called him GP and I liked him enormously because Colonel 40 was very nice but terrible history I missed the back to the fair nice proceeding everything proper with GPR could relax we had a good laugh and he always gave because it was a hospitality covered and against germs he didn't bring to us the subject very little but it was a big treat come about six o'clock and give me a Sherry which I would hide behind the telephone and my dear so that needs to sit there chatting and wandering I kick my shoes off because it was hot my chatting with I was just painting my nails because really I was sitting there and I'm checking checking it out how many signatures in the door it went everywhere. Because even the director general ambassador of Sweden somebody or rather I want him they walked in they said we have an emergency we need something

Unknown Speaker  8:22  
and he's shaking his ego The glass is next to the gpmc with all the layout and is it oh

Unknown Speaker  8:34  
it's hot pink,

Unknown Speaker  8:36  
sticky wet nice surprises like that. What the papers I read

Unknown Speaker  8:46  
navigate to this

Unknown Speaker  8:48  
you know when the keys or?

Unknown Speaker  8:52  
Excuse me?

Unknown Speaker  8:57  
The director of the BBC there

Unknown Speaker  9:01  
is the quality reporter. Oh.

Unknown Speaker  9:06  
Always ever said no. I see when I was on the phone. Welding that's what we saw. sort of outline. You know, he could see my face he sort of he took it on the typewriter for me as

Unknown Speaker  9:44  
they come

Unknown Speaker  9:48  
up, give me another drink. He's caught off to have just couldn't get to where you For nearly two years was

Unknown Speaker  10:09  
the blackout the department

Unknown Speaker  10:19  
doorbell broadcasting houses the third window to the left was their office, their office window on the ground.

Unknown Speaker  10:26  
And you can see me the thing out because if it got to that that's why I hated the job being so young because come high days and holidays, it was my shift to be I think, I think it was 63 or something like that. And it would come sort of, you know, like Easter Saturday or whatever, or frankly, the Friday afternoon, and everyone was going when it would always be sunny. And I'd climb up on the arm of the chair and put the face of the top of the hill and you see my face looking up pathetic day with Sean look going on?

Unknown Speaker  10:57  
Did you have a certain reputation easy stuff to do?

Unknown Speaker  11:06  
upon promotion to get thinking I was applying for the jobs and getting them it was so easily famous with the boards were always at Red Bull house was because I do blame Congress as well. I blame my mother for not telling me or helping me or showing me but I used to get put in this stage is the future of putting into anything what's not joining me is to try and advise me and say what is never mind is meeting people and I'll get out I'll move on I must get out this job and perfect everything and they all got to know him and there was three appointments officers who were lovely three lovely ladies. And I didn't know that they were all in this series and didn't know how to tell me but I had a suit. I had a beautiful grey suit with silk faces sit down nice straight skirt. And I wore these black high heels.

Unknown Speaker  12:01  

Unknown Speaker  12:03  
no, somebody told it to me secondhand or something. But it was a beautiful grey suit with the suit. But I was gonna find flowers and a clip. They're a little quiet

Unknown Speaker  12:14  
but I would it was 24 and I could see the condition use easy to do when you wake up in the night you

Unknown Speaker  12:46  
I went to

Unknown Speaker  12:47  
pointless I was wonderful. They go sometimes they go for this job. And they say we know we know it's meeting people. It's interesting. This job and they say well not related, of course what your fatal thing happened. I've got three three jobs together, which was very embarrassing and very interesting indeed. And the point is obviously choose it wisely. Listen, looked after we'd all have chat. We think you best go to television. But don't want that one. I want one of the other jobs that I've got three jobs

Unknown Speaker  13:21  
was just

Unknown Speaker  13:26  
one department

Unknown Speaker  13:28  
secretary to what he was talking about the reporters Political Report went down I wanted all the trappings Oh yes. Very cross applied and we want to go to television at all. I said oh now I want to grant both of us to do this is silly. Do as we say. And off I went to television. It was quite coincidental but got the job in television and I managed to not like I've been told not to lie to get around the fact that we hadn't got a television set in the Flatiron hadn't seen television. I've never been to a television show and I've never knew anything about television. But it taught me a way out of that. And I got the job. They were trying to tell me something but I was the last person to get the job as a production Secretary straight in as production secretary was after me they've made a pool of

Unknown Speaker  14:17  

Unknown Speaker  14:18  

Unknown Speaker  14:42  
she always that was a youngster

Unknown Speaker  14:49  
I had these two these two were brilliant to see and they were all over such good doesn't they both did brilliant short and untidy. Brilliant in offices Gundam was liked by everybody. And then I couldn't follow this to you see that this

Unknown Speaker  15:02  
problem started years before was the one that was on point they thought you might have to go to the blacks and let's start like they've made to take a year off from school. And you lost the whole year. He ever caught that. I mean, I'm talking to Justin and I prayed the problem, from that point of view was that mommy also was so concerned about your health, but you will never pushed into learning anything. it down to thank you for listening to this show. I was I remember coming home and said they had to do an intelligence test. I mean, that was your mom. And tell them says, mommy says, How did you get on? We're all sitting around the table. Oh, it was really very easy. And she said, Well, what kind of questions? What How do you register? What instrument is measuring? Right? Well, simply the question I was going to get, so I say, sorry. Are you registered? She's easy. She's ugly. What would you say to the poker in the fire and it comes up. Every time nobody said, you know, you're really gonna study or anything. So she really was sailed through the grace.

Unknown Speaker  16:27  
We've all been a bit spoiled. Do you remember who it was saying she did? So all of us, we've all been a bit. Do you mind a bit slightly hoity toity. I always remember a story of Hazel when she was working for she got put into a

Unknown Speaker  16:40  
pool, or she's always here to work on Sunday to get extra money there. So you do. So if you get if you anybody in the second case, wanted to volunteer news division was leading sector, like immediately the news to express on the bulletins. And she goes, that was the Indian section. And she puts it into the story. Well, you know, when we should put the thing in, it was like, you need a for profit. But she was not newsroom secretary. So she had no idea and this man instead of saying, Okay, this topless, he starts may start screaming at you. No, no. And it should be four copies of everything. And Harry. She said, I decided I didn't need to have that. Thank you. She says I got off and just walked out. He's screaming we're going on. He says I don't care.

Unknown Speaker  17:30  
A bit. And you said no to people for now.

Unknown Speaker  17:45  
Did you walk out on shows? Jim, did

Unknown Speaker  17:47  
you have

Unknown Speaker  17:49  
the same attitude? Yeah. No, no, well, no, it comes with different situations.

Unknown Speaker  17:54  
Dad has the job nine times out of 10 the show.

Unknown Speaker  18:00  
Yeah, you know, once I was doing a television show and got held up, that something was broken down and had to get off the bus and get another one. And I was late for rehearsal, and they make you feel terrible producer just stands there. He don't mean to but everyone just says everybody's here. But you will never we can't carry on, you know? And you feel terrible. And what can you say you keep apologise

Unknown Speaker  18:31  
to the people that are rebuilding for

Unknown Speaker  18:32  
years. And increasingly so as I get older, you I wouldn't put up with

Unknown Speaker  18:38  
what I mean, if you're a pro, you don't do it on purpose. Make sure you're going to be there. So it's all things one use no say in the

Unknown Speaker  18:47  
restaurant was on buses. Yes, I

Unknown Speaker  18:49  
will complain now. I mean, I would never have complained with the other cold plates

Unknown Speaker  18:53  
or would I didn't like this.

Unknown Speaker  18:56  
But now I was

Unknown Speaker  18:58  
going slow. That

Unknown Speaker  19:04  

Unknown Speaker  19:06  
my life to be true. Even

Unknown Speaker  19:17  
when you're not using the film until you have a Indian restaurant or friend's mother to cope with it

Unknown Speaker  19:24  
that's not going to have to run

Unknown Speaker  19:30  
his career ended in the business.

Unknown Speaker  19:36  
Yes, well, I ended up by getting I got married and when the baby was just eight weeks, do I that's when I left the BBC. And then a year later emigrated to Canada and have been in the United States. So where I run a business for an English tea room and the pub and get to shop and now I travel section as well. In California in California, Palo Alto. Can you put on shoes and shoes, right? They said I'm always I was the one in the family who wanted nothing to do with show business, I was never interested. I said, I often think that mommy and daddy are looking down going wanting nothing. I'm losing my mind every day. But she showed this is when we will be

Unknown Speaker  20:20  
on the wall fighting job is in the high schools and everywhere scientists to get on stage and have to leave parts. And I'll do that I'll do that not audition scene without this. And it was a marvellous moment when Sheila was put into the schools in a Shakespearean production. And she didn't want to do it, because that and the teeth whitening, voted, my mother said, you know, chooses not to participate. She said, She's got to be one of these pages or something. So my mother went back. And I can allow it in my mind's eye seeing her in this way. She was cheap, she was a personal job with a plate with six others and then they will go one line to

Unknown Speaker  20:55  
say and I did not want to do it. I never wanted to be in any of these. But because of that his name, they put a line I will be picked every time and I would make up some C's I do not want to be in the play and it was always disciplined for it because I was being walked with us. I don't want this one. They said you have to do it. And I had to come on with this one line. And I just First of all, those who have small parts had to help sell chocolates on the intermission which I came back later for. And I'm pulling all this money and coming up the steps and this man is screaming, quick, quick, it's your time get up here and I tripped on this money, everything boxes of chocolates, everything flew I just walked on the stage with my back to the audience and when he's here my lord walked off and all I could feel was the family roared with laughter with other serious part of my

Unknown Speaker  21:45  
is my mother gone man and go to a dressmaker and I can see it was shiny session with silverengines as you know, and the thin little legs and he always saw that and his lovely blue Kate was silver around the area. She shuffled on and she stuck her face on and it was the flat who have you seen him? I know.

Unknown Speaker  22:06  
It was every time I'd bet right? The worst mess of anything I could and next time it was a play. They choose you and

Unknown Speaker  22:13  
did you think that was the end? Was

Unknown Speaker  22:18  
the end anyway? absolutely impossible.

Unknown Speaker  22:21  
And a French teacher or Jesus in those she wanted us to be in her French play. And neither of us wants to be in that because you have to learn it all in French and when they're doing our work recently and again you see she was absolutely translators authors also when they got average marks not to that end of that term. I got three ascertained because we haven't been to and that was the only time we realised that daddy's name was wanted on the phone it's like a something I said I'd also remember that i thought you know got my essay back you know? Just let me

Unknown Speaker  23:16  
know if we can go back to concentrate on your career go back to not all the garrison here to let us develop thereafter. What happened?

Unknown Speaker  23:27  
You said

Unknown Speaker  23:27  
you married and then formed double act. When When did you meet your futures?

Unknown Speaker  23:31  
Well, first of all, I'm married for the first time whilst I was in garrison theatre tour. And then I had my son, so I didn't work. And then and then when I did go back to work. I met up with this other man and we met we performed a double act as there's no variety. And so then we worked in the double act for quite some years, then got divorced and remarried. And that's really basically how I earned my living. For most of the time, I'm trying to date so

Unknown Speaker  24:14  
I was fielding more than that, but that didn't happen. You made the movie that was that. Did you believe the film with your father? Yes. Riverside studio? Yes. That was 1942 42 early 40s. movie which scene eternally? Yes, yes. Courtesy of Channel Four. What do you remember my project?

Unknown Speaker  24:34  
Well, I really remember somebody calling me up and saying that they were interested, you know, for me to do this film for the reason that I at that time was the youngest person who would be in this movie as a variety actually just cuz I wasn't but I mean from garrison theatre, with the oldest, what was just named COVID. And they would lie need to have the comparison. In other words meeting. And so the storyline was made that where I was rehearsing for something, and came on and remember, came in it was

Unknown Speaker  25:12  
a memory. It's a memory lane, right?

Unknown Speaker  25:17  
And so, and then daddy was very daddy was there? Yes. He was in the in rehearsal. Yes, he was he had the orchestra, and was doing all the music and so on. And then he rehearsed me with the song that they wanted me to sing, which I'm not saying was never happy about and so rehearsed me and did lead the orchestra for me to sing the song. And really, that was basically all there was to it. But it was the contrast, supposedly, of the oldest and the youngest of the performers at that time.

Unknown Speaker  25:49  
You remember the camerawork or the director or anything like that? No. It made up for Well, it

Unknown Speaker  25:55  
did talk about it, they all things about three days. That was all you know, because in those days, they didn't they really, can you look at it, they didn't take such tremendous care with angles. And so it was just a question of set the camera from the lighting and so on. Okay, you're wrong, you know, then

Unknown Speaker  26:12  
go ahead. Just in terms of technique. Do you remember if you pre recorded your song

Unknown Speaker  26:17  
I did. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. And the director

Unknown Speaker  26:23  
was within cleanses. Yes, yes.

Unknown Speaker  26:26  
I mean,

Unknown Speaker  26:28  
it didn't last with me, whoever he was. I mean, it was probably a very nice man. But it was one of those things that talked to three days. And then Danny and I were both in and we said, well, thank you so much. We had a lovely lunch or dinner or whatever it was. And that was the end of it. You know, it was really charming. Because I think I got it in the mail. You know, it's in the mail.

Unknown Speaker  26:50  
Can you remember what it was? No good move.

Unknown Speaker  26:52  
Good news.

Unknown Speaker  26:56  
I can't remember but it wasn't a fortune. I think it was around two pounds or something.

Unknown Speaker  27:02  
Somebody we'd had the good Asia would have Yeah, because he came across very well. Yes. It did. They would have picked you up and said well, you know, here's another film for you or look for and well you

Unknown Speaker  27:12  
know, it was so bad about that was the fact that I was signed to jack Hilton and a recording company was interested in me and he said leave it to me and never followed up and I kept seeing what's happening is is our call today as I'm again nothing came of it. As he was a very, very bad agent. Yes, he was a bad bad agent for me.

Unknown Speaker  27:36  
There was so many of the band leaders who became agents and

Unknown Speaker  27:42  
it was much better and who wanted to sign me but that is only to jack Hilton was jack Payne. And he would have been much better. Well,

Unknown Speaker  27:54  
Frankie How?

Unknown Speaker  27:56  
But I mean, at that time, he was prepared to do more. Yes, that time but then of course,

Unknown Speaker  28:02  
Gary was an amateur. He followed that film with other German said in passing on I got married. But I remember as a child, the excitement term was married in Edinburgh because she was on tour with garrison theatre. And I shall never forget it as a child we went into the waiting room say Come on, we'll go now and we got in a car we arrived at this church of Edinburgh Cathedral School that got in the car because I was frightened the crowds they weren't they was just like a style thing today. But I was learning the road and right up to the doors and they were and she was walking up and they all cheered and screamed and then we walked up and they'll go that'll be the sisters but we were so daft I mean mommy should have said something about you know putting a smile or when we learned that this talk this this is really a technologist look at these three types of breaches as a single says must be the system. When I thought about it later found it as well covered by the coaches press. people share the screen when it came up. was one of the ones it didn't last typical show.

Unknown Speaker  29:17  
It was it was only published

Unknown Speaker  29:18  
two years ago couldn't birth

Unknown Speaker  29:22  
43 I think something was for that as Michael was born. Wait a minute. It was about 19 4040 Miko born 42 so it must have been 4041 must have been good.

Unknown Speaker  29:41  
Please. Take a Gershon 32 that series member to the film brief. Did you work with COVID nails?

Unknown Speaker  29:49  
No, that's all just just just

Unknown Speaker  29:51  
the shorts separately.

Unknown Speaker  29:54  
They weren't together. It was it was very ridiculous to see really I was on stage and my phone was rehearsing. And Johnny Coburn walked on and said, like john is our boss, I'm ready to do my number. The manager would like you to meet Jim winters and she came on and they said how do you do a PA little job? Little turret? She went off and john here and then did it

Unknown Speaker  30:15  
was really bad.

Unknown Speaker  30:17  

Unknown Speaker  30:20  
It wasn't really explained to the public what it was meant to be. No, it's

Unknown Speaker  30:23  
really the guy who runs the theatre. It

Unknown Speaker  30:25  
all goes back on a flashback. I did.

Unknown Speaker  30:30  
We got a copy.

Unknown Speaker  30:31  
I just wondered if you had any particular anecdotes of Charles Coburn

Unknown Speaker  30:36  
No, no, it was very, very quick was just a question of you know, that sharp and so on Big Bear

Unknown Speaker  30:41  
and all the others in that film I

Unknown Speaker  30:43  
think for it was for your well being. Yes, Joe Jr.

Unknown Speaker  0:00  
Cuz you did a couple of days, maybe I remember sitting in a mouthing to it and how learning it you know,

Unknown Speaker  0:10  
not easy from a band later on. And that's what

Unknown Speaker  0:14  
we're getting too much into a personal thing of you and us talking about this. I think Roy should ask.

Unknown Speaker  0:21  
No, no, no, I think do you know far more about what happened? And I do so it makes sense. It's time I wasn't here. So

Unknown Speaker  0:36  
no, and I had forgotten

Unknown Speaker  0:39  
why I suppose it's fair to ask what would the from the artists point of view the conditions of making the television programme in those days? And what you remember of the treatment and

Unknown Speaker  0:53  
wonderful, Agnes, I enjoy. I must truly say I was enjoying it. In fact, there was enough time that I'm going to perhaps I've got the wrong title, but it was a detective. Detective

Unknown Speaker  1:08  
crunchy. That was the one I put you in.

Unknown Speaker  1:11  
The drama. That's right. That's right. And, Francis. That's right. That's right.

Unknown Speaker  1:18  
Who was the only inspector

Unknown Speaker  1:20  
and I remember one time we were rehearsing, and it was his birthday. And I can't remember where we were rehearsing. Not sure it was by this by the by Hammersmith bridge. Yes, yes. And we all went into the pub to have a drink with him for his birthday. As I say, in those days, it would be really nice. And I got talking to somebody I looked around wasn't so mad. And I always everybody. And I went back, and she's arranged it, which is when she comes in them talk to so I came in all worried anyhow. And I came down and I ticked it in and everybody said to me, and she was she wouldn't have talked to me. I'm so sorry. And it was terrible. He made me feel rotten. Yes, really wrong. But it was fantastic.

Unknown Speaker  2:03  
Did you enjoy it? You didn't have any rough? They didn't find the dressing rooms bed or makeup? Or was it rushed or pushed?

Unknown Speaker  2:10  
I don't think so. far as I remember. I did. Why didn't a lot of people

Unknown Speaker  2:15  
know Roy was asking you how have you found the

Unknown Speaker  2:18  
sociological aspect of it? The pay wasn't the greatest in the world.

Unknown Speaker  2:21  
Well, no, no, it wasn't. But it was really it was really early 23 pounds. I

Unknown Speaker  2:27  
think you've got for a part. rehearsals, water fibre? About three pounds over a day? Yes. Yes.

Unknown Speaker  2:39  
It was more sort of it felt like pioneering days. If it was early days, and you weren't about to sort of, you know, do a big temperamental act about I'm the barista you weren't you were just part of the the whole thing which was to me, I loved it. I loved I loved every minute of it. Did you in those days?

Unknown Speaker  3:01  
Yes, yeah.

Unknown Speaker  3:03  
Great, great, great times.

Unknown Speaker  3:08  
What are your favourite memories of that time? In terms of work

Unknown Speaker  3:12  
and work? Well, I think I've been I say, maybe the diversions In other words, the difference with not getting stuck into a into a rut, which I had become the little girl with garrison theatre. That that was very difficult to overcome. Because no matter who I went to see, it was well, you see your little girl, it was terribly difficult. I saw one a woman one time when he was running second division and and I said, Ron is terrible. I can do other things. I'm not doing those techniques. I know but you see your image? And I said, well, surely he said, Well, if you have any ideas? Well, I suppose desperation at the top of my head, I said, Well, I will the children's programme. For instance, I said, you know, children are having birthdays every day all over the country. And maybe there could be a birthday programme. And you know, with the cake and the candles and Happy birthday, and so on, and then games and sampling and quizzes and and we're having sure within the show, in other words, have children do answer questions or something. And so it was just like that at the top of my head. And he said, Go see. And whatever he gave me a name he called up was his alcoholic. So you're on the way. So I went to see this producer and did exactly the same thing. I said, let me just show you this. And here's where the trouble is. You see, we don't have any slots.

Unknown Speaker  4:41  
That's saying that to this very day,

Unknown Speaker  4:43  
and I don't really know much. About four months later, I have to be held on a damping kaymar there's no idea. See

Unknown Speaker  4:56  
on BBC.

Unknown Speaker  4:59  
Yes. Yes, but it was it was very upsetting because you thought, oh my god, you know, like an idiot and DSP. I should have said, Well, you know, write it down whatever first. But you don't think. So that those those sort of things that are upsetting to a degree in the business.

Unknown Speaker  5:19  
We're used to working when you went to the state. So in the United States,

Unknown Speaker  5:23  
well, the programme finished the advertising magazine. And it was that feeling that we're where we're going now, because you know, that rising more or less finished, and that was those in app. So it was like, Where are we going? And so we said, well, let's try and see how we northcom back. So that's how we went over there. And the first thing we did, we went over to Boston, Sheila and met this agent, and we, we did the boyfriend, Cape Cod, to the centre, which was lovely. So all the Americans are saying, My God, you're so lucky. And it was people over here out of work, they were then you arrive, and within two days, you've got a job

Unknown Speaker  6:06  
was lucky. Did that cause bad feeling?

Unknown Speaker  6:10  
Well, luckily, no, because we were so excited. And so new, and I don't know anybody, there was no feeling of animosity, because we were all sort of meeting for the first time was lovely. We were so excited that I think they went along with enthusiasts and, and to this day is when we met Mark and patients. And so this day, we're still friends with them after all these years, so it wasn't. But then we got to New York and they got the wrong agent, which was drama. And she's kept sending us for strange things, which really wasn't wasn't me I like comedy. And one part she said before there was a memory seven to 16 year old and I was 14 for just 14 long and they were looking for his eldest sister for the for the play. The producer said well, Dad, I'm so sorry. But even the makeup girl can't make you look older than Murray's casting directors. Exactly. And I think the best there was when I went to St. Paul for advice and consent. And I was sitting outside with the with the secretary. And I didn't even go in the opposite as soon as he came out of the door. And he just said how totally are you? always in trouble and 75 foot two isn't sorry, too tall. Because I've always been my trouble. Oh my goodness, I walked out of there feeling like seven feet you know? And I must admit my husband very well against me how to get on I said what do you do? I'm to tool and explain he said what was it I said to the ambassadors? Why British ambassadors why there was the part he said well, he was the British ambassador to New Zealand

Unknown Speaker  8:01  
so we got to the pricing we got to do something so we got to pay for looked at an agency and I went for this job as a receptionist as well What else? And so they said we'll do whatever you do dimension shoe business death, you know, because they know you're only filling in so I put housewife and school and all the different things I just put much too far back to remember that we're not going to get and anyhow I did I got it. And I was receptionist second floor right floors.

Unknown Speaker  8:34  
The top of the six is the sexiest.

Unknown Speaker  8:37  
Within three months, I had the supervisor running up and down there was leaving so I said to the personnel department. Well, you know, what about me? So they said all you got to be used to handling the public. And I said well, I think having managed it and how I got the box so I was there for five years. Robson's supervisor, Venables and six

Unknown Speaker  9:04  
reception Roy in the 60s. So that was

Unknown Speaker  9:10  
that was my part for five years. I loved it. That was that was why we didn't even try for the business because by that time, it was like, oh god, it was such a rat race and then such an app sales. So I said forget it. Brother. Let's how explain. Yes.

Unknown Speaker  9:27  
We started out by talking about your father. We kind of left him way online in the when in the 40s. I go so the 50s the 50s Yes, we last talked about him possibly with the dhampir show. He might well have made a comeback in Radio Times. But went on to build a Tamam will things mainly the summer season. Yes. alternating between scar bruh and the

Unknown Speaker  10:00  
worked here was that

Unknown Speaker  10:02  
Oh, relatively late on.

Unknown Speaker  10:06  
Whereas it must be in the 50s.

Unknown Speaker  10:10  
No. Well, we lived in 61. And he had the pub then because we used to go down for weekends to and to do. trumping. Yeah. In fact, I remember one time we went to a wedding and we went, we stayed the whole weekend. Workplace for him for the weekend.

Unknown Speaker  10:28  
Yes. trumpington.

Unknown Speaker  10:31  
So that's really why we sort of like, not talk about him, because he went into that line

Unknown Speaker  10:38  
should just complete the story.

Unknown Speaker  10:41  
He went to he took this pub, I don't know what made him do it. I think it was Madden's idea. And I think he liked the idea of having a pub and having a space that he could talk to people being such a record Turner, I think he's thought thought to himself from our stand behind the bar of mine host the drink in my hand and chat to people, which he did. And then I think he found it very hard work, indeed. And then every time they went away, they had problems, didn't they? Because they can look it I didn't know, I didn't problem by manager, manager manager ran off with our till once and somebody else was ripping them off on the kitchen. And I think he found it very hard. And I don't think he enjoyed the last bit of it at all.

Unknown Speaker  11:24  
You're quite right that originally lamping main host, as you say, exactly, because it was like he was, you know, open that printer curtain up. And it was absolutely right. I definitely did. And he was fine. As long as he had a manager to help him. So he just mind host. Everything was done in the morning. We did the seller work and everything. And he just had to walk in and say good morning. And everything is right. But only when it became a headache and worry of people and it was getting older, of course, and Harry sucralose, so he

Unknown Speaker  11:58  
finally gave it. He didn't really do very much more. He did a cup I know he did. This is your life. Some days. This is your life.

Unknown Speaker  12:04  
That was hilarious pepper. Was it? Yeah. Because I was in it. Oh, is that right? Yes.

Unknown Speaker  12:09  
And I remember him telling me how fair it that he'd been treated like royalty. They'd had a marvellous time. And then he went for the drinks afterwards. And then he got very upset because he was yelling at us in the studios. And he said to me, I got very upset, you know, because I suddenly looked around and everybody was going and nobody seemed to know me and I walked downstairs, and I there was on the pavement. And I didn't know how to get home and I felt ever so I had to laugh in one way that bless his heart. He expected to be quite rightly treated like he was used to being but it must have been performed on himself on the pavement that miserable part of London. Opposite was in Beijing not knowing where to go what to do. It must have been rotten. Oh, but there was one of the last things he did I think on television.

Unknown Speaker  12:53  

Unknown Speaker  12:55  
I did a television with him, funnily enough at the beginning of rediffusion because my boss thought that he was marvellous Georgia and gave him a pilot and it was a john shabu show was Pins and Needles and Pins and needles. And I was sort of in charge but because I was so new, young. I don't know what that even started properly directing. I don't think I had had I and so there was a director put on it but and when I look back on it now I'm older and wiser I realise what does as a director know, the director who is in charge of it was now as of me being around and there was the the fact that Lloyd Williams, who was the head of the place had said do this show. My father was nervous because he wasn't probably being directed by anybody of how different then I remember that because it was all so new and frightening. Tell us me didn't know what they would and we've got a bit of film and they had to wait a bit put it together and they couldn't they kept saying is not ready. And just as we were counting down to do this part, it was definitely the film's in Shall we run it and I went, Oh no, these two beings are inexperienced and we're no no is not being rehearsed. We haven't seen it. So of course my father was thrown into this programme sitting on terrified, looking miserable. And he was saying there's a bit of film we ought to be seen now. You know, and when I look back on it that I could die for him because I realise I shouldn't have anything to do with it at all kept well out the way that somebody else directed somebody be firm with him and I think he would have had a series running forever but Lloyd said to me after he just shrugged his shoulders and went well that didn't work did it def some videos a miserable dealer do what a dreary quarter of an hour after all my garbage and that sort of just wiped out?

Unknown Speaker  14:40  
Yes. When he came over to see as New York, he tried to get him to see the Boston Pops because that that's was a wonderful share. Spectre still going on. I think it's another and I can't think of the name of the field. And so he said you must say that because that would have been wonderful for him. Yeah, and if not there, at least over here during the same idea, because that was that was really him was Yes. It was light, like music and they were all sitting around and drinking and trapping and tables and you know, and wines and it was lovely in the atmosphere. So nice. But he wasn't interested in I think it was a little bit that he was he knew it. He couldn't do it or it was too late or something. It was funny that he absolutely was. Not, you know, yeah, after calculators. I don't like it.

Unknown Speaker  15:34  
I don't think he would have been television. retrospectively. I don't think he was perfect in radio. Yeah. It's a pity the radio thing didn't go on. Yes.

Unknown Speaker  15:44  
You're probably right. Yes.

Unknown Speaker  15:46  
He talked to us. And

Unknown Speaker  15:49  
he always looked nervous anyway, didn't they? Yes. Nervous looking? Yes. Yeah. So that was part of the fun of people that he could have been becoming. Well, yes. He could have done more. Yes.

Unknown Speaker  16:00  
Yes. Good director. Good show. Yeah.

Unknown Speaker  16:04  
How did you spend his last two years

Unknown Speaker  16:06  
to really know how to think he did well? Was it still had the pup did they have I think he really went to pieces. withdrawn from the world

Unknown Speaker  16:21  
for lack of work, and she says she is one

Unknown Speaker  16:24  
but your mother is out of the picture. Yes, when she died. She put this one together. But she she talked him into going to Pershore where her family were. So it cut him off from the rest of the world. I mean, it was miles for us to get to just sort of withdrew.

Unknown Speaker  16:44  
It was a bit sad, really.

Unknown Speaker  16:46  
Having said that, you know, he'd love people. And of course, you know, the power belong to people and suddenly retire into this at all

Unknown Speaker  16:53  
place. I mean, I never went out of the country, in the middle of nowhere. He loved it. When we went I've always he came down here. He loved it. Because he was such I mean, this door is If only we had them listening only we had the old tape is some of the things he told us which of course, now we can't remember now. And again, I remember a little bit all the things we haven't heard or I mean, not doing it, that was his greatest thing is sitting telling,

Unknown Speaker  17:22  
acting it out,

Unknown Speaker  17:22  
which is marvellous, used

Unknown Speaker  17:27  
to used to do that.

Unknown Speaker  17:29  
Oh, yes. And the lead of the man. There was a wonderful thing he did. And he used to love doing it and putting on a Macintosh with a hanger inside of a hat on top of that, this, this tall man, he gets into a town and he says he wants to see the billing for the show is in he gets in on Sunday. And the buildings just gone up. And there he is. And he's he starts at the top. And it looks marvellous from the back, doesn't it? And he's looking at this and it goes on the bill. And it gradually gets lower and lower and lower. And this this, this voice suddenly shuts out down with a wines and spirits

Unknown Speaker  18:05  
and it was right at the bottom of the room.

Unknown Speaker  18:09  
Really big stories of his father when his father and his stories obvious childhood because I mean it was a morodian times really and certainly into Georgia fifth. And he raised strictly brought up and used to tilt his head but his grandfather was a doctor. And his mother came from a very grand family. And they used to have soirees and teas because and he was because his blood was too tall to Kimmy Charlie, Charlie Charlie, that was his things he remembers from these slides should be Charlie by trevisani. But he says come in here stand here. And then that was the most marvellous time it's very rude this I think he was born his mother sent for him and said come and say Hello Mrs. sensor lady sensor Mr. sensor your answers any wet properly. About now chilly cha they're gonna get this case. Now Charlie wants to go back before you go. Now. You know you do that marvellous thing that your father does and he just did there is that do because apparently for some tricks something he did that he's failed to do which is very funny. And she went on as you put on Charlie, Charlie, don't do it father does show the people and he just bent down against this great level of wind to this assemble company.

Unknown Speaker  19:25  

Unknown Speaker  19:27  

Unknown Speaker  19:29  
lady went into apoplexy. Oh, I did love that story. 1000s of stories like that thing that was childhood when I was a young musician.

Unknown Speaker  19:52  
He was, you know, practising at the piano and he been very bad school with playing apollodorus but We got a bad report. He's practising ways without a word. Just the hand came down can write better than the report was put right on the music.

Unknown Speaker  20:16  
When he was a young musician I have my mother used to go up not to windmill street of course. She used to stand with the crowds at Sunday to get work for him he was either and used to stand there for and she get him a job as you come and say Quick, quick jaws Come on quick just get dressed really got drugged up, and he'd go to work it wasn't he wasn't capable of doing of the job that she fought his tails

Unknown Speaker  20:42  
didn't get he did

Unknown Speaker  20:44  
go see Academy or double o norcan and piano play drums you could conduct any given arrangement. And yes, through Fox afternoon, you'll be there. Get on a bus, Charlie.

Unknown Speaker  20:58  
She had a lot to do with the success that he had.

Unknown Speaker  21:01  

Unknown Speaker  21:04  
yeah, she had

Unknown Speaker  21:06  
he was artistic and then

Unknown Speaker  21:08  
on the charm

Unknown Speaker  21:08  
and the Sham he had everything but it's a bit about the drag he was a push reticent man. Yes and no push man. He would have sat back and saying Well, I think I can do it. You say you know you can push he do that for him.

Unknown Speaker  21:22  
But do you do she she made him a certainly areas where you cared about him? Made it do things.

Unknown Speaker  21:30  
When did we get on? JOHN is June the 30th 1979. Just 10 years ago coming up with some B three 7/19 of December some degree?

Unknown Speaker  21:42  
Yes. It is amazing.

Unknown Speaker  21:48  

Unknown Speaker  21:50  
I thought Tuesday November no December.

Unknown Speaker  21:53  
December, December. So just before Christmas. Which was a ruin Christmas that Yeah, I don't mind.

Unknown Speaker  22:03  
But we saw Charles. Just a couple of weeks before he died. By the week. Yes. We went to see him and he was in good, Nick. Very funny, as usual. Very funny. Yes. A few pink gins?

Unknown Speaker  22:21  
Oh, by that time, I don't think it matters. It wasn't a thing. No, no

Unknown Speaker  22:26  
more stick like than he'd ever been here. Notice the human hair pin to some of the comics

Unknown Speaker  22:32  
started that did

Unknown Speaker  22:34  
the human hair and it was torn thin.

Unknown Speaker  22:40  
Yes, these legs were apart when they I mean, he stood. Yeah, with these legs of static. How do you remember them? In a few words?

Unknown Speaker  22:51  
With great fondness.

Unknown Speaker  22:53  
Oh gosh, enormous

Unknown Speaker  22:53  
fondness and humour. Yes, I smiled when I think of him. Because he had tears.

Unknown Speaker  23:00  
And he had no discipline because mother to his story he used to call the sergeant major

Unknown Speaker  23:08  
what he used to of course, he always said he fought he made the bullets and she thought that he would complain to her about us. The way they do the move and she had the awful job of calling us up dealing with us or punishing us or whatever it was. She told me. She wasn't really but she made herself so she was a wonderful mother. Wonderful man.

Unknown Speaker  23:32  
No hard feelings.

Unknown Speaker  23:33  
Oh gosh, no, no. In fact, I thank him because you see some of the people today think she had no discipline at home obviously.

Unknown Speaker  23:44  
No, she when she was ever stood very strict for everyone. And there were no favourites. No. I mean, I knew the three T's me and say I was the youngest. I was spoiled. But it wasn't it wasn't so she never got

Unknown Speaker  23:56  
really mad. No, no, no, not

Unknown Speaker  23:58  
really. No, we're in do you think is Kuru and wrong? Because it obviously did. Yes. So the decision was not really about age. And it was leaving the BBC probably I would

Unknown Speaker  24:11  
say so he has all leaving the BBC when he did and doing what he did.

Unknown Speaker  24:17  
Agents had a lot to do.

Unknown Speaker  24:19  
And you know, he had to be led. He was a man who had to be led. He had some strong views didn't mean he knew what he could do. And he knew his capabilities. But I'm sure it was looking back on it now that he left at the wrong time. He should have stayed, or he should have gone. Left. The BBC stayed at the BBC with a strong agency. Now look, we think Charles ought to change his career move into or whatever. I mean, I'm sure he felt that he couldn't stand there waving a stick of the radio orchester forever.

Unknown Speaker  24:50  
No, no, you should have done what jack Payne did eventually on television. sat there and introduced the big orchestra and everything to people. He wasn't an impresario. Oops, I couldn't have done that. But he couldn't show Couldn't he? Oh, yes, yes to show

Unknown Speaker  25:08  
them for example.

Unknown Speaker  25:11  
Oh, Doris

Unknown Speaker  25:14  
Warren I became with her when he got too old to sit and do the roulette more or less just the opening phone. Yes. Yeah.

Unknown Speaker  25:21  
That's that's where it all went right with a great radio. Obviously.

Unknown Speaker  25:29  
She had no feeling for showbusiness. So in that ground, or whatever. And

Unknown Speaker  25:35  
so to see that kind of promise and achievement. Yes. terms,

Unknown Speaker  25:41  
such a quick decline was very quick. I mean, the fact that I used to try not to think about it or think it was all for the fact he was doing with Tom Arnold circus a little hard to set up and kudos to it. It was the first time the Russian hackers have come up with a big thing. Yes.

Unknown Speaker  25:59  
Something's happened. No, no, no, honestly. What I'd like to do if we finished with before that because as we said much earlier, it's extraordinary that his his, his name is remembered. character, but for those who listen to radio more than anything,

Unknown Speaker  26:20  
and he had a sudden upsurge in a wave, because after the war, when the BBC suddenly suddenly the war went, when the stars came over, like the great singers not listening to. This was Nicole, and Donna shore was on as a star. And it was a great thing, you know, and I always remember, it was live, of course, musical. And she and we were all sitting at home listening, you know, my father's broken in the window, there was another American on the first half, and she topped the bill. And she sang her first song, and then she said something about, and now it's a great pleasure to be here, everybody and how thrilling it should be your first American visitor turns. And I'm going to sing now one of my favourites. whispering green grass. Thank you, Charlie, and other central lenders pause as you went. Thank you, Charlie. And we were like that. She jumped to her last number, whatever the stock was. She jumped to her last time measure two hours ago. And they were like that with the notes. And afterwards, she apologised sincerely and said that she knew very few MDS would got out of it as quickly as he had. But I mean, it was a dreadful thing to happen on it. You know, the first one, she said again, heavily, thank you. So much. She apologised. And she said, Oh, I

Unknown Speaker  27:42  
made a mistake. There was another way I can't remember if a man was singing. And he was going to do Lady of Spain, but he decided to do it and go three, four times out of the dango. and rehearse it that way. And when it came to that new started episode, he went back to the Tango, and then you had to change immediately. And it was one factor so much afterwards, because, you know, it was already for this different beat and suddenly failing and going back to the fusion don't mazing I was a unique.

Unknown Speaker  28:16  
I was the one of the ranking abusers. No,

Unknown Speaker  28:20  
I think he was unique. But the fact of his of his background and his attitude, you see, and then he was very lucky was he was one of the few people who've been allowed to get up on BBC. And then that's his own tools as well. There's programming here. And it was only used to say afterwards, it's all because of me that the other MDS started speaking and talking. And, of course, a lot of the work very good, someone find their own personality. But I think he was unique because this is the

Unknown Speaker  28:50  
full guy, the stooge, if you like

Unknown Speaker  28:53  
to do as you say, to do the Toby, teen crowd, which is saying which you know, has his own choice and given it to him, he did it.

Unknown Speaker  29:06  
And it was unique as a person, everybody liked him. He was a gentleman.

Unknown Speaker  29:10  
So it was the character because the musicianship really

Unknown Speaker  29:14  
Yes. Yes, indeed. But because he said it out loud. He's gone. And now we talk about things. And now we have so much older that we look back and see this and respected.

Unknown Speaker  29:24  
They didn't

Unknown Speaker  29:26  
matter. It was just there.

Unknown Speaker  29:33  
It's too late when someone comes to

Unknown Speaker  29:35  
us, of course. And of course, opposite to that we didn't talk to my mother volunteer because she had wonderful stories, but not on the show itself, but about his family and his background and this history, which was ever so interesting. I think that's very funny characters is

Unknown Speaker  29:55  
in a separate session, we would like to ask German about memories of With the key people in your career, I suppose Jeff Warner is the most famous one you worked with?

Unknown Speaker  30:06  
I would say So yeah, I would say it was fine, because jack was much older. But of course, I'm ready. And I would just to know that because he was an economical to me. But of course, the public thought it was a big romance, which it wasn't, I knew his wife, lovely, lovely lady.

Unknown Speaker  30:26  
Now, I agree with those who thought the movie his talent was a bit sparse.

Unknown Speaker  30:32  
To be honest with you, I think he was very lucky. I think that I think they've given him a tremendous opportunity. Not I wouldn't take away what he had, and writing and so on, which was a great asset. As we've said before, that time needed to do your own writing was nobody else to do it. But, but a lucky man, lucky man. He almost almost finished after garrison theatre. He had an awful downswing. And he had a girlfriend and one of the chorus girls at that time. And then luckily for him blue lamp came along Tony Willis saved him really was it was

Unknown Speaker  31:19  
writing the blue lamp. Yes. Getting the

Unknown Speaker  31:25  
green. Yes, he's. He said he'd been acting before on demo. for 20 years.

Unknown Speaker  31:32  
It was very good in that what my brother's keeper would have were he

Unknown Speaker  31:36  
Yes, he couldn't radio as well. I

Unknown Speaker  31:38  
mean, yes, he did quite a lot when he cut my

Unknown Speaker  31:42  
radio. Same part again. It was a good old

Unknown Speaker  31:47  
play himself.

Unknown Speaker  31:50  
That that one where he was he was mobbed as it was that's the

Unknown Speaker  31:55  
garage owner or something. He was really very nasty. And he was

Unknown Speaker  32:00  
he was the heavy and he was so good. That's great.


Daughter of Charles Shadwell, musician (together with Daphne Shadwell, Joan Winter/Oldfield and Sheila Shadwell).