Charles Potter

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Speaker 1  0:17  
The copyright of this recording is vested in the ACTT History Project, Charles Potter administrator, British Transport films,

Unknown Speaker  0:30  
Interviewer John legard

Unknown Speaker  0:33  
recorded on the sixth of June 1989

Speaker 2  0:38  
in Charles potters home at Godalming side one.

Alan Lawson  0:47  
Hello. Very nice to be here with you, and now we're looking forward to hearing a bit about your career. And perhaps we could start off by you telling us where you started life, who your parents were, and where you went to school, and so on. So how you got onto the film thing eventually? So start at the beginning, if you'd like to do that.

Speaker 3  1:09  
Well, I wasn't that. I was an only but only child, and I wasn't allowed to go to school until I was seven, because they were worried that it might worry me

Unknown Speaker  1:26  
when actually,

Speaker 3  1:27  
1994 September the 13th, 1914 1914 whereabouts in ill for Essex, Ill for Essex, sorry, and my father was manager of cardboard box company. And my mother, until her marriage, used to go to Switzerland every year for many years, and was a mountaineer and was the first woman to go down by rope on the No, no one with the Ice Station at The top.

Unknown Speaker  2:17  
Moss face of the eye go

Unknown Speaker  2:19  
No. Well, um,

Unknown Speaker  2:25  
you have to bear no matter. Anyway,

Speaker 3  2:29  
I can fill it in later. And she used to go over here for six, for about six weeks, and as I say, came down by by rope, and I have a cutting where it says that Miss winch will be very proud when she sees the film of herself doing it on the walls of Crystal Palace. I tried to trace the film without success. So then I went to they sent me to a private school in Noel Lester than Clarks College, Clarks college grammar school for four years to be followed by two years at Clarks College Business School, which meant that the age of 15 and midst of the Depression, it was very necessary to get a job,

Unknown Speaker  3:25  
and my uncle was this secretary of the NMS railway and found me a job in a Cartage office starting at six in the morning,

Speaker 3  3:40  
on The understanding that for the first three or four years, I was not to let on that I was his nephew, in case I disgraced him. How much were you being paid for the 18 shillings a week, eighteens a week, starting at six in the morning till two in the afternoon. I

Speaker 3  4:04  
this was in January, 1930 but where were you placed? Placed called Maiden Lane, near Kings Cross. But then they pushed me around for training, and I had 33 different jobs in three years. Good. My friends had managed to find jobs nine to five, and I therefore took a very poor view of having to get up at about half past four to five to do this job of six, and I was a bit cross that I've been made to join the railway, but I had no option where about to be living then I was then I was born in Ilford, but I was then living in kingford Essex. That was a trip, yeah, after three years of being put. Surround, I found myself transferred to the advertising and publicity department of the LMS railway.

Unknown Speaker  5:13  
And this is 1933 33

Speaker 3  5:21  
and my boss was a person called Loftus Allen, who said to me, what is your Christian name? Potter? And I told him, Alfred his he had his answer was, well, we can't have an Alfred in the office. They're going to call you Charlie. The net result is that from that moment on, I became Charlie, then Charles, to such an extent that in my will, it's Alfred known as Charles. Hmm,

Speaker 3  6:03  
I'd been there a year, and John Shearman turned up.

Unknown Speaker  6:13  
His father was the chief motor engineer for the enemy's railway. And there was my uncle who was assistant secretary, and there was only one job for us, so I took the risk of telling my boss who my uncle was,

Speaker 3  6:41  
and he said, Well, you're on his assistant secretary, Shearman, father is the chief engineer, motor engineer. The net result was that the infinite the strings were pulled and we were trapped, both of us to do the one job. Yeah. Uh,

Speaker 3  7:06  
just about that time in history, my mother gave me a letter to deliver to my uncle, and I went over to the hallowed central office of the LMS railway, where there's a very large notice which says silence. And I sat in the waiting room, and my uncle sent for me. I handed in a letter, and the chairman of the railway happened to walk through his office. And when I got he sent for my uncle and said, Who was that nice young man in your office? And my uncle took the rest and said, well, so it's my nephew. That was the end of my minute. And you know I mean, an amenity. Yeah, an amenity.

Unknown Speaker  8:03  
So just then, that's my background, to how I to how I am. Right by this time, of course, I was in the advertising policy office and I was on the press desk.

Speaker 3  8:23  
Press and photographic desk involved in all kinds of publicity stunts. And if it's of interest, I took a press photograph. There was a new sleeping car being brought in, and I took a press photographer over to photograph the interior, which he did for a poster, and this was in large as a photographic poster, only to discover that in the rack the photographer had left his hat and we got a lady model recumbent in the sleeper the poster was strapped. On another occasion, being in the press desk. In those days, the railway, railway zone, the Glen Eagles hotel. And every Friday, the gossip people would ring me to find out who was staying at Glen eagles. And we used the Evening Standard, and they used to say this weekend, Lord and Lady this, and Lord lady that, and so on so forth. Well, this was all jolly fine, until one occasion, I just read out these names, and it wasn't Lord and Lady sir and so it was Lord and somebody else. So that practice ceased, oh, smartly, and equally, I had a they introduced a brand new restaurant car. A marvelous car. We had all the models sitting there, dinner being served for publicity purposes. And this is in the days of flash photography. Had them all season, all eating. And the great moment came. He got under the clothing. Tors burns, an enormous blister on this brand new coach. On another occasion, I took a press photographers to took a press photographers to crew where there was a brand new locomotive in the paint shop, again with with flash. And he got into the pit shop, looking up, and he had this tray. It didn't blow off, you see, it still didn't go so he got out. He went like that, and the whole lot went on his face. We rushed into hospital. He always hair went, all his eyebrows went, all his face skin and everything else went, see what that is that he'd prior to this, he'd suffered with form of eczema, never suffered with it again. This is extraordinary. These are just the I'm sure these are not of interest, but, I mean, this is really kind of background. The lengths we went to to get publicity in those days was quite extraordinary. I mean, we we had the train, the photographed itself. In other words, late at night, we set up a battery of bulbs, the bulbs that used to blow with silver paper. And we set up a battery that was just outside Euston station, an enormous battery, and then it was tricked by way back as the train went out this last thing, and it was published in all the papers. Because in those days, you see, I took in the days when, I mean, there was a famous photographer called Jimmy Sign of the Times. My job in those days was to get these pictures in any pictures of trains into the and the times in those days would print a half page of photographs, or one on Bucha troughs, we used to go and so on so forth, or I went all over the place this press photographers. Well, that that really is

Alan Lawson  12:32  
so this is talking about between 1933 and sort of 334

Speaker 3  12:38  
34 and then came in, oh, yes. Then, then, just about then, in about 33 just about 73 the LMS sent the royal Scott train to to the states, which went from one side of the states, right across with a bell on front, driver, Gilbert and a cow catcher. And every town it pulled up the local news. We newsreel. Covered it. There was civic receptions every stop. It was all film on 35 mil silent, infallible stock. When the train came back, they brought all these footage back with them and put it and just plonked it on the desk. And somebody had the bright idea that, why not join it all up, edit it to some extent,

Unknown Speaker  13:41  
and show it to the staff in canteens and so on so forth. And this was in the winter of about since 35

Speaker 3  13:55  
and this was done by using a 35 mill simplex silent art projector

Unknown Speaker  14:06  
going from town to town in a clapped out old coach, railway coach, showing this to The staff. You could see what happened this train in the various American places

Speaker 3  14:26  
was very successful to her and as a result of it, the railway board authorized Midland. LMS rail. LMS Yes, LMS rail, London, Scottish Railway. This one, the one there, London. Scottish Railway Board also authorized money to be spent on the production of a number of films to show the staff the other man's job.

Speaker 3  14:57  
Now I. Just at that time, of course, I was also by that time, I was involved with films. I was laying on facilities for night mail, which was shot on the LMS,

Unknown Speaker  15:14  
shot by the GPO Film Unit.

Speaker 3  15:15  
Yes, right, that's quite right. Brenner was the PR man, he wasn't the film, and grison was the chap, because who came under brevner, and the chap that. And of course, John shim was still with me and I was there. So John is his. I academic education, Westminster and all that was a natural for writing and so on so forth, and with my complete lack of education was a natural for organizing and getting the film shown. So we made a good pair. And pair.

Unknown Speaker  16:05  
Who did you have actually making those films?

Speaker 3  16:08  
Man called who gets very in the jungle, confirms. Man that gets very little credit, a man called Bill Bruder Now, b, r, u, d, e, n, e, Double L. Now he was the driving force. It's very interesting that his name is hardly known, and he was our boss. When I say our boss, I mean my boss and Sherman's boss. And we hired, we bought in the camera man

Alan Lawson  16:39  
on an ad hoc basis, presumably, film when needed

Speaker 3  16:43  
from topical films. The thing called topic of films, we bought him in check, called lock. Now you're John Sherman, and, well, um, well, um, have you you've done John, so you will have told you all about St John Lock, yeah, and, and there was also an internal chap, camera man called Ralph Beck. So John was the writer and the when he subsequently directed, of course, and then we the first program of films was sentence of safety, which is about signals, obviously, ships within our seas, which is ended on the shed and so on. Teen titles, these

Unknown Speaker  17:46  
were sort of internal films. Were they? Hello, not for,

Speaker 3  17:50  
not for, not for publishers. They were made for showing to the staff and their families. And at the same time, we did a thing called events of the year, because, as Josiah Stanford, such as Canterbury, King Lord, stamp, was very fond of his own picture. And so we every time he opened something or closed something or made a speech, he was covered, which ensured the continuation of the unit.

Speaker 3  18:29  
So the first program, the first program, black and white, which had a running time in 90 minutes, was ready during the summer of 36 the

Speaker 3  18:45  
six. Then it was felt that, as many of the staff of the family should see these films. I was I was given a four wheel compo brake. Now in railway to railway, that's railway terminology, a four wheel compo brake, which is a which is a coach of four wheels, obviously. And a compo brake means that he had a breakdown and three first class compartments. This was converted so that the brake van took the gear and acted as a workshop with benches, and then one of the first class compartments was turned into a sleeping compartment, and the other was were used for traveling, and I was dispatched. We our first show was in the shareholders meeting room, and. Houston station, and the next one was abigaveny. And I went from Abigail any. I left in September, beginning September, I went from Abigail any to wick the following day. And I was away for six months, and we were doing one night stands, two night stands, and so on, so forth. My first so we traveled by night from Euston to Abergavenny, bass Shrewsbury, Craven arms and down.

Unknown Speaker  20:37  
And I woke up in my sleeper, pulled down the window, and there was a station master.

Speaker 3  20:45  
He knew I was coming, and behind him a Sugar Loaf Mountain, I will remember that. And then a flat drive with a horse turned up at around 11 in the morning and gear, and we had an Iron House and a transformer and a converter, which took four men to lift. The Iron House was a projection box and a converter and our rectifier and crush those one and the flat, flat, flat, horse drawn vehicle. All this gear was put on down to the town hall in Abergavenny. And two shows a night, six o'clock and eight o'clock. And they were queuing up. They were queuing up outside the net, the coach, the trompo broker. I just noticed here was an old first class London North Western Railway trompo brake, number 280,200 80,000 we had a toilet, a day compartment, a sleep department, a workshop, so and our gear was a 35 mill simplex art projector. Complete was transformer. This was sound film, by the way, a Mercury art rectifier, Mercury art fitter, an Iron House non sync and screens of varying sizes. So

Speaker 4  22:16  
you had one projector, you were able to run air short films or long films with a break,

Speaker 3  22:23  
that's right. And the projectionist was Joe Hall, who was hired from Jay Frank brockless In Waller Street, fascinating in Water Street

Alan Lawson  22:38  
was the Noel 16 mills that time,

Unknown Speaker  22:42  
this was 35 flam, flam film. But they

Speaker 4  22:47  
did have a 35 non flam, didn't they? No, I thought they did at one point, no.

Speaker 3  22:57  
So the tour started in ambec venue and finished in wick. In April 37 we had a complete timetable of the tour, and I'm just reading here. Yeah, that's right, I told you wrong. At 2pm a flat horse drawn Dray arrived, and we unloaded, made the town hall. We set up during the afternoon, had an early tea and went back door at 530 television was more or less non existent in those days, and there's a large queue that's right now. The great moment came six o'clock, 15th of September, 1936 with a full house, about 600 people, complete with a mirror and see civic dignitaries. I introduced the film with the lights down. We hit the screen with a picture eight by six feet strong on a bamboo cane. This was the first occasion they always put on a sound, not a theatrical show. 730 the first show was over few drinks in the mayor's parlor, interviews the local press. Then on to the eight o'clock, which finished at 930 a Harry dismantle and at 10 o'clock, a horse and coward arrives, the gear back to the coach of the station, gear loaded, fish and chip, supper and to bed during the night to Swansea and the same routine for the six next six months, two shows a night near enough in a different place, eating out of the week. Now there's all kinds of anecdotes. I mean, you could imagine on the road like that for six months.

Unknown Speaker  24:55  
Well, tell us one or two,

Speaker 3  24:56  
all kinds of anecdotes. So it's something that comes to me. Mind, particularly Yes, memorable. Looking back, remembering how my projectionist, because my job was, I was the front man, actually Goon. He was a Cockney. Looking back, I can see him now, unfortunately, he did now, rewinding this and Flam was sparks coming. Now terrifies me. I was a bit green. I didn't realize that flam meant flam, you know,

Speaker 3  25:40  
one night, this Iron House was complete, was roof and everything and was and everywhere. We had firemen standing by, and you only got to touch something, and the the aperture where the thing would was cut off. And one night this happened, and before we knew, we were faced with foam and everything, but because the farmers thought we were on fire, which we weren't. But that was pretty annoying. Now another occasion in Scotland, of course, they dropped the It took four chaps to lift this simplex off the stand. There's a marble. It was a marvelous, marvelous summer equipment. But he dropped it and broke broker. I forgot what it was. He broke a part of it anyway. And we were in which and we were traveling, and our next show was in Perth, and we stayed up all night whilst traveling. And this projectionist managed to put it right, which was remarkable. It was carbon, of course. And he was a brilliant projectionist, because he could, I've known he'd change a carbon without almost stopping, which is when you lifted the thing up. You know, you can imagine, we were both keen on on snooker. We both bought queues, and the first thing we did in every town was to find out where you could play snooker. And in those days, you could always play snooker over Burtons. Burtons the tailors. And so once we once, once we set the thing up, off we go and play snooker, coming back to the more serious part of it all, it was a tremendous success. We in in we were in town halls with 1000 seats in some places. And I've just noticed here there wasn't a single breakdown, but some anxious moments, as we had no spare, spare machine. You see, that's right, yes, you see to during this trip from wick to wick to Perth. To add the anxieties of the Long Night at avion. More the rally points fro were frozen, and more than three hours for the coach got through himself. And as I've say here, the 35 mill six simplex architecture in the workshop in pieces looked like a mechanics, mechanics set, which had been tampered with by a small brother. Anyway,

Alan Lawson  28:25  
this is very interesting. I was wondering whether, did any of the other regions, railway companies take it on whatever, not

Speaker 3  28:34  
to that extent. One thing was it this the original, still, the original copy you started out with? Yeah, really, yeah, no crisis, yes, the show copy, I imagine, yes, yeah. He must have been a very, very careful projection. Oh, yes. He was a very good projectionist. Yes, yes. He was, indeed, we got, and I was allowed expenses. I was allowed by the railway, 16 shillings, which covered, which was supposed to cover you for 24 hours, overnight accommodation, lunch, tea and breakfast and everything you see. So what I did was, to, we used to sneak in the coach, never go in a hotel, and just put the money in our pocket. And we made a bit. And the interesting thing is that my uncle used to have to sign my I used to have an advance in lieu of expenses of, I think, 20 pounds. And my uncle had to sign the check for some of no reason, as one of his jobs, he sent me money. You sure these expenses are all right? 20 pounds. 20 pounds of fortnight. Seems a lot of money,

Unknown Speaker  29:56  
extraordinary. And I assured him they were. Them, which seemed to please Him. So that was, as I say, that was the winter of 3637 and then at the end of that tour, John Shearman got crack in made some more films, and we made the tour all over again in 3738 and in 3839

Speaker 3  30:36  
but near enough Powell was that it was the introduction the two cinema coaches, additional cinema coaches, especially unlike mine, in which instructional films were shown in the coach to the staff

Unknown Speaker  30:53  
who ran those, anybody we know

Speaker 3  30:56  
Well, John made the instructional films. Noel, you wouldn't, nobody. No. Then the Wall came and all tours finished, obviously, right. Then the only film activity during the war was the recording of any react, any reaction, as and when on each occasion it occurred on the enemy, every time a bomb was dropped, anywhere he was covered. I mean, I was away, but so was John, but interrupting just for a second war years, what would you what did you do during the war? I enlisted in the territory army in in June 39 when I left, and I went to White Hall for it, and had a medical. I was green as grass, of course, and I came out of it, but a one is in my innocence. I said to the major there, what does a one mean? He says means to be able to undergo severe strain in any part of the world, which I took a pretty poor view of and went back to the railway I need to be covered, only to be called up before the work, before the war was declared.

Unknown Speaker  32:20  
Before war was declared into the Royal Engineers. And to find myself wars declared on about the third of September, I think, yeah, to find myself in France on the ninth

Speaker 3  32:38  
in September, and I was there. Our unit was in the BF longer than in the other unit. I came out after Dunkirk from Cherbourg,

Speaker 3  32:56  
having stood on the key at Cherbourg, and the dispatch rider came through and said, Every man for himself. The previous night, of course, the Brigadier had said, We'll fight. We're not going to be like dunkerton. We got to fight for the last which, again, I took a brief overview. Anyway, the next morning, the dispatch rider came down and said, the Germans are three miles outside. Show very every man for himself. We hadn't finished a sentence before I was on that I jumped onto the ship and came home with nothing, no rifle, nothing, and found myself at Plymouth, no rifle, no nothing. And the next night, walking on Plymouth, got pulled up by army MP for being having my top undone because I was incorrectly dressed. So I said, Well, if you come from where I am, you'd have been anyway. Then I went on leave, and there was a local harm, local army parade, and I was in civis, and the chap said, you know, young man like you ought to be in the army and so on.

Unknown Speaker  34:05  
Story, very good. Yes,

Speaker 3  34:06  
you know. So then we were at Plymouth, and the grandson said, By this time, is getting on for September, I got married. But in September, of course, the London Blitz started. So they thought, well, engineers, you go to London and you can go on heavy rescue and have and heavy demolition. I found myself in Cromwell Road, Cromwell Road, Kensington in September. I went right through the Blitz, heavy rescuing and involved and and so on so forth. And used to go to dances at this story in the West End, and you. Never saw anything about it. Never thought. Never lost a nice sleep. Well, I didn't last night because it needs to keep us up. I mean, never lost any sleep or anything. Some music stories about that, but that is a bit in that we organized dances in the common room of the museum and so on. At the end of April, I decided that blitz was perhaps on the way out, april 1941, I suppose where are they setting? 41 Yeah, so they sent us to the Outer Hebrides because Churchill had the idea that they ought to have the landing fields or the airstrikes as far west as possible to tackle this u boat problem. So I spent a winter out in Benbecula and so on, and I was there when the politician sank, which was, of course, the origin of whiskey galore. And our chaps used to go down and do what they say. And felt a bit glamorized. And I actually, I actually had some of that politician. And it was absolutely bloody filthy. It was neat. You get 150 I think it was disgusting. Anyway, so I was there when the politician sank, and our tax and organizing dances there and in bembach, and because squad is being, gentleman, would offer to walk the girl home, and he discovered that she'd walked about five and a half miles from the other end of the island for this dance, because you see these islands, until we arrived, were dry, and we were on. We were on Ailey, Ben BECTU, stornaway and so on. And we were there for we were there for about 18 months, that's right, until about four so we were there 41 that's right, about August. 42 somebody had a bright idea that killed him again, that we ought to invade North Africa. So I found myself en route to North Africa, landing it out with the First Army, landing it out years, and then on to Bean, and we were strafed for me at a breakfast time. And I share by the which time I was a w1 and I shared a cabin with the RSM of the Grenadier Guards. It gave me great who was about as big as a horse, but he gave me great comfort, because he was sick all the way. Had to stay in his cabin every morning, and I wasn't. And lackey used to come in and scrub the floor every morning. Second nerve tenants used to come in for instructions from this hour zone, and they all turned out when we went through the straits Tangier in the middle of night because it was a battle honor for the Coldstream Guards. But he was still in his bunk. So I gave me an error from superiority, although I was an amateur soldier and he was a professional. And as I say, we were in Africa for

Unknown Speaker  38:38  
the river 42 we were there until Paul said we were there all 43 Well, I mean, that's the story in itself. And then 44

Speaker 3  38:52  
children, again, had the idea of starting the second front. And as we were, what they call seasoned troops, they brought us back, straight back to Newcastle

Speaker 3  39:05  
in 44 and then bang us out d plus seven on the second front, and we Did the cooks tour of Europe, finishing up at Lubeck, wonderful, finishing up at Lubeck in May 45 and took over premises in Lubeck, which until that previous day, been occupied by Himmler. And if you read your history, and this can be confirmed, Himmler was there, and we had to, first of all, clear their breakfast table, where their eggshells were still been left, we were that near. In and that, of course, Lubeck at the end of the road was the Russian frontier, Bucha, Russian frontier, and that we're talking about May 45 this is in days of non fraternization with the Germans. And as an arrow, cm, I had the job of taking these chips on bathing parties to on the Baltic on Sundays and the British Army had a place barb wire off, so we were entirely known, except, of course, of each side of the barbed wire, but these gorgeous four lines of the kids hanging out. I was supposed to stop our church talking to them, but you can ask you, and some of the so I was there from May 45 and then found myself in the Control Commission. In control because it became Control Commission. And December 45 I was out, having had six and a half years of run around. And the only thing that happened to me was I got German measles when I was in the bes. But during that period, of course, sometimes I absolutely terrified. I know what sinful they give is when you can't stop shaking, absolutely terrified. But they were

Alan Lawson  41:39  
you didn't have any involvement in any, nothing at all. Anyway. You didn't come across any

Unknown Speaker  41:45  
No, no film writing.

Unknown Speaker  41:49  
I just thought you might have probably bumped into some of the, none of our chapters.

Speaker 3  41:56  
By how I go to the back, I go to the enemies. Yes, of course. Dunge 45 Yeah, end of and lean best. Then started thinking about films again. So, like you moved from another figure. But so they commissioned the GBI Goon British instructional to make 616 millimeters sound Coda chrome films for 25,000 pounds, six, 660 millimeter sound Coda chrome films. The subjects were the rail the LMS railways contribution to the life of the nations, examples of which are wheels behind the walls, which was about building animals, animal, mineral, vegetables, about farming and so on. And there's chat called Colin Bell. You remember Colin bale? Yes, Colin Bale was involved. Jack called Goodwin was involved. Gordon No, not. Goon No, not. Gordon dying. There's no use healing.

Speaker 2  43:11  
No, I know the man you mean at all. Yeah,

Speaker 3  43:14  
dark, yeah, dark, black hair. Well, you would be Goon. Yes. So back I went to the enemies the same time, and so I was arranging facilities from all this, this bunch

Unknown Speaker  43:37  
same time, Ealing were in full flight with things like trailer events, man in the white suit, the one that was Guinness and the old lady, oh Christ, a shot at Kings. Lady killers, Lady killers.

Speaker 3  43:59  
They show trailer events last week, and the people I got mixed up in there were Goon dine as the cameraman, slim hand production, basil, Reardon Lionel CO, sidco, Sid CO, Sid CO, of walking himself. There was the his son now doing the man that he was a producer, big, tall chunk, see the bag or two his sons. He, that time he was responsible for laying on, for organizing all the props and stuff. Oh, dear. He's got a son in it now I noticed,

Speaker 3  44:57  
and at the same time. I was involved with Pinewood, who were making laying off Sundays for the film about Victoria, Queen Victoria, and the chat called White, who was the great noise? Tom White. Tom White. Tremendous noise. And I got mixed up with Queen Victoria.

Unknown Speaker  45:16  
Yeah, that's

Unknown Speaker  45:20  
Hitchcock

Speaker 3  45:21  
Wilcox. And then, what about the, what about the film? These encounter, of course, I got mixed up, right? Yes, of course. Calm force and the chat chap. Haviland,

Unknown Speaker  45:33  
yes. Anthony, Havelock, Allen,

Speaker 3  45:35  
Anthony, have a look at this. I got mixed over them. And then there was a film of Jack mccannon in it. And actually, the Victoria

Speaker 4  45:46  
one would have been earlier, wouldn't it? That would have been pre war,

Speaker 3  45:51  
60 glorious years, 1936 Yes, that was before. Yes, you're absolutely right. And we use the lion locomotive. The Lion maker of your right, is affordable, of course, yes. But Tom White was a, was a very big, very big. And I used to be taken to the script in those days the screen writers Club, which was very, very remember. The screen writers Club was very posh. I really thought I was living when they took me there, the screen writers club. Is it still existence? Street writers club?

Unknown Speaker  46:31  
So now we're talking about sort of, this is 4647 isn't

Speaker 3  46:34  
it? That's right, yes. And the German British are making these films.

Unknown Speaker  46:39  
So you providing a very considerable service. Yeah.

Speaker 3  46:43  
And then all of a sudden, across the summer, decided to nationalize the railways. Right? And Jock brevner

Unknown Speaker  46:49  
940, 740-949-4090,

Unknown Speaker  46:54  
yes, 49 I

Unknown Speaker  46:56  
was least the railways had already been nationalized before

Speaker 3  46:59  
in 49 Braven and Christian barman of the British set up the transport now they're going to set up the BTC per minute. I'm sitting at Houston, and I can see that, you know, my future was pretty, pretty obscure. So I wrote to Christian Bauman without telling my boss or anything, and said, You know, I thought I should be giving in the background to what you already deserved. I could be of some help. Having done that, I realized I had broken all kinds of protocol. Knew I was a lowly clerk on 220 pounds a year, writing to not to my boss, not to the boss of the NMS railway, not to the rail executive, but the British Transport Commission, rather like riding the Bucha and palace and I hadn't told anybody in between.

Speaker 3  48:15  
I don't know whether it's next bits for the record, but I have to tell you this to make the point. Well, I want to, I want to stop a second

Unknown Speaker  48:21  
reload over we can reload. I.

Unknown Speaker  0:13  
Um, Charles Porter signed two saying in 49 there was the biggest BTC film really being set up to be to be set up. And I had written to Christian Baron, who sent for me. And I was attacked. Attached, as opposed to post, it attached to this unit as distribution system as and when they made films. I I was the first person.

Unknown Speaker  1:07  
So you were a founder member,

Speaker 1  1:10  
very first person, and set in my office. And this is long before Edgar appeared. It watched various candidates being interviewed for the job of films officer for British Transport Commission.

Speaker 1  1:36  
There were many who applied, and thankfully, most of them failed, looking back on how different it could have been, who, who the other people were, who applied? Well, I can tell there.

Unknown Speaker  1:52  
This is relevant in a way, isn't it?

Speaker 1  1:58  
Holmes. Jack. Holmes was interviewed because he had just made a very good film on venereal disease

Unknown Speaker  2:06  
at Crown formula Yes, called people at number 19,

Unknown Speaker  2:09  
Yes. And John Taylor was interviewed. And various people you

Unknown Speaker  2:24  
and then Edgar was interviewed.

Speaker 1  2:39  
Noel talking about and he came straight from film, and had not completed His work in Venezuela,

Speaker 1  3:00  
so you went back to Venezuela for About two or three weeks.

Speaker 2  3:20  
He didn't. So in other words, it was just you to start with you. There's distribution Assistant, what you call yourself, and otherwise there was nothing at all, nobody. So then started

Unknown Speaker  3:35  
barman. Barman said to Anthony, I've got Charles Potter here, but I don't want to lump you with him. If you don't want him, you don't need to have him. And he had a look at me, and he took a chance. We were we were on the 10th floor, I think it is of 55 Broadway,

Speaker 1  4:11  
and then petty fonts afterwards. Oh yes, 55 Broadway, and I was

Unknown Speaker  4:20  
stooging for barman and Nancy on various items. We had no no no production people whatsoever. And I was really my value to end Steve well, so I was filling him in on the Rowley background, on what you can do and what you can't do. I.

Speaker 2  5:03  
Can we just go back slightly because you were going to say something about the Southern, southern region, I got it here, yes, slightly early, because obviously they then became, you see,

Unknown Speaker  5:17  
sit here, unlike the LMS unit, which would cease making films internally. The Southern unit was in full flight of production, and Jim Masterson, who were making films more or less in the same manner as the LMS,

Unknown Speaker  5:55  
The Abyss and their nationalization,

Unknown Speaker  5:59  
and they had David Watkinson.

Speaker 1  6:01  
David Watkin was a messenger for them, and used when I was at the NMS, if they wanted to, wanted to collect a film from the other part, if they wanted an MMS film, they send the boy, which was David Watkin. His father was the chief legal adviser to the Southern Railway, and they used to send this boy over David

Speaker 2  6:36  
watchingster and Bobby Allen. They were also reg Johnson, yes And Reg Johnson.

Unknown Speaker  6:44  
So here we are in 1949 Ernst and Potter,

Speaker 1  6:55  
and Steve and Potter, Broadway and Broadway, 55 Galway, and I think it was only 10 as he took a chance. And I was appointed, and I was promoted, and I jumped about four grades. It was absolutely fantastic. And I was appointed at 550, pounds a year. 550 pounds a year, issue 49 as a fortune, precisely this first class travel lands appointed. I don't really want to put these figures he was appointed. I think 1800 so I can give you more features you want to mention money,

Speaker 2  7:47  
quite interesting, actually, in that context. So it was famously

Unknown Speaker  7:55  
important, and there was this certainly in it. I I

Unknown Speaker  8:08  
suppose. But

Speaker 1  8:12  
this was a British ran short Commission where am Steve Potter, brother, the southern unit was still with the southern and was regarded as property of the rare executive.

Unknown Speaker  8:33  
Stayed like that the time being,

Speaker 2  8:41  
so they were going along independently, making their own pictures. They were in their own premises, and they had their own cutting rooms, until

Speaker 1  8:49  
the rowing executive were taken over by the British row is warned, and the British draft permission was disbanded. That's really the love of it.

Speaker 2  9:02  
But were southern region based making films, when, when British Transport?

Speaker 1  9:12  
I'm just trying to think Erwin, what can join us when I

Speaker 2  9:15  
joined British Transport films on april 1951 and what can was there then, I mean, he'd been there some time as an assistant. Can and

Unknown Speaker  9:32  
at what point you see, you were in petty France, weren't you free?

Speaker 1  9:35  
Then we, then we went, Yes, we're talking about 49 and then later on that year, we went over to petty France, and then in petty France, in petty France, we recruited cragan, Ruth Pratt

Unknown Speaker  9:50  
Ferguson. Ruth Pratt

Speaker 1  9:52  
from Pat a Ferguson from from realist realist, Ron cragan, who just. Done a series in Norway with Craig Erwin didn't come then,

Speaker 2  10:10  
no, I always understood that the founder members, apart from yourself, were Craig and Ferguson and amsty and then Ruth came.

Speaker 1  10:18  
Yes, later, yes, all right, yes, yes, yes, I was there before, Anthony, you were

Unknown Speaker  10:28  
the original, as opposed to a founder

Speaker 1  10:33  
member. So there we are at we're in petty France, and we made some films such as we made some films such as Jack Holmes of birth, verse 24 Jack Holmes and Go do was Production Manager, go do, John, go do. Croatian was the cameraman. Of course. We made birth 24 in and waterways was Baxter. I think that's when Sherman came in. Just Sherman was Baxter, basically, yeah, I think it's when Sherman first appeared on the scenes. Baxter, we made we made birthday for in the Warner, I got all the programs in there. Verse 24 bexting them, moving house. And Walter the world transport with dear old Bailey. Chris Beaty beat us babies. Walters, world transport. We've got those four films that's right in 1950 I've got the program decided that these got to be shown in a big worry. So we are the Odeon Leicester Square. I think everybody but the Queen was invited full full house with refreshments, everything else. And they went over lush program and everything. And that was that building a launched, in a really big way, the Odeon Leicester Square.

Speaker 2  12:20  
But just to go back a bit, when the unit was set up, presumably, did it have its own budget, or war films budgeted individually? Because that's quite an interesting aspect, wasn't it? I mean, what was the original sort of constitution of the organization. I don't think in the very early days,

Speaker 1  12:45  
I don't think in the very early days, I don't think we had a budget as such. I think I was so powerful that he just said to the British Financial Commission 1x or y. I don't think there was no budget as such. I can't ever remember worrying about a budget in those days

Speaker 2  13:13  
and not of course, they were not only making those sort of theatrical forms, but presumably, already there were instructionals being made for people within the industry. In other words, carrying on with,

Speaker 1  13:27  
no, I didn't know that went that started later yesterday, but purely theatrical, that's right. And better being better. He was a theatrical kind of spread, the kind of chair he

Speaker 2  13:44  
was almost like a minister, wasn't he, because, I mean, you think, who can't film it during the war that they didn't have budgets, although hardly had, and it wasn't until the COI, the ministry became the COI, Desmond costs thing become very, very important, I suppose, in a way, British artful films started off rather similarly, although is beast

Speaker 1  14:06  
time. Oh yes, I'm just looking at my watch. How are you for trying? You can come back.

Speaker 2  14:16  
Applicants now. Charles, um, I'm sorry. So when, when Edgar finally took charge of the unit, he wasn't only making films for the syllabus, but he was responsible for various aspects of visual aids and so on, stills for not only the railways, it was, it was the docks, the road services in waterways. Perhaps you could tell us a bit about what was in mind in those days started working with him. Well, yes, indeed, it was London Transport, London Transport, British road services, national bus. The

Unknown Speaker  15:01  
British Transport hotels,

Unknown Speaker  15:10  
Thomas cooks and British Transport dogs, that's

Speaker 2  15:17  
it, yes, and you were doing stills as well as

Speaker 1  15:21  
not that studies. Now you weren't later, just about then we're talking about, if we're talking about 5119 5051 51

Unknown Speaker  15:31  
before we before you went to several road

Unknown Speaker  15:35  
and see married, definitely. Er and where? Went on a honeymoon to Paris, same time as there was a conference at Felixstowe, wherever we were going to show our first films we'd made to the stone world company. And as Anthony was not there, he anistond recorded on cellular disc

Speaker 1  16:09  
an introduction which was played before the film at Felixstowe, which was played before the screening took place

Unknown Speaker  16:19  
attending the conference was Lord hurricane, Lord rush on, Lord Latham of London Transport and one or two nights, most celebrated occasion. Jeff films has shown subsequently, of course, these films had to be sorry films. I birth 24 and work in progress. Noel yes in waterways was shown with World transport. Was shown in the civil house.

Speaker 1  17:14  
Reservoir was made by patty and shown in nearly beasts in the ABC circuit. One day I sitting in my office with a man called fancy. Fancy, not EJ fancy, but his brother walked in and said he'd heard about our films, and I showed them to him. And as a result, within company, with his brother, EJ, we managed to get circuit deals, which was out of Earth screening around 400 sim house. I was near Eden circuit or the ABC circuit. On one occasion, we had three they always started and very started with the West End booking. On one occasion, British Transport had three films running at the same time in the West End,

Unknown Speaker  18:21  
in the restaurant, the

Speaker 1  18:35  
nationalized industry concerned, we have a way ahead in Our films being shown the public symbols for which we were paid and for which we also received Ed money. The percentage was 460, 64 produce for the producer and 40 for the distributor, percent. And we applied this also to the ED money. And some cases, the money received considerably paid for the cost of production. On one occasion, we made a film on the blue permanent Bill blue Pullman, which had its West End premier at the Odin I was trying to consider to coincide with the inauguration of The first of these trains. On the same day, I

Speaker 1  19:40  
of the films are sold to cinemas on their entertainment notes, and that was the origin, rather than they were shown as BTF films and not British Transport. Therefore,

Speaker 2  19:57  
oh, I remember, yes, we used to have to have. Special titles for the theatrical version, because they didn't want to have the general public thinking at once that it was sort of sponsored by the railways and not anonymity. Was important. It was more important, vital, yes, because it was a crucial time, wasn't it? Was crown film, and it recently act up. You know, it had been closed down by the government, and I suppose that was we were keeping a low profile. Rather, at that

Unknown Speaker  20:32  
time,

Speaker 2  20:33  
did you not have any non theatrical film distribution going at that time? Oh, yes,

Speaker 3  20:38  
at that time, it did indeed remember the lists appearing on the Lotus board? Yes, yes, we did

Speaker 1  20:44  
indeed. And of course, it was, well, it was not only in this country, but in the United States and all over the world. We managed to get, we managed to get the actual distribution, United States, Canada, South Africa, Australia, New Zealand.

Speaker 2  21:02  
I and we also had a catalog which was published every catalog ever, in nine months or so, sent out to all the clubs and societies all over the country. Were they not empty schools?

Speaker 1  21:20  
FCC and I didn't notice the class year, we carried out an analysis the commissions, films, distribution. The figures show it regularly. Ordinance of approximately 200,000 people was reached each month in cinemas, and over 1,500,000 general polymer scene, British films last Saturday. Do need a six autumn winter during the autumn, winter months, I've been trying to die and there were television screenings. Of course, it was estimated that normally months, actual distribution alone, eventually you did a public audience per title of something in excess of three millions, at a reduction and distribution costs of less than a havening ahead. BFI films are sometimes brought by wealth. Officers shows inhabitants of HM prisons. His interest is made that the film we made for tilling belts company entitled wave the Day was the most popular for the prisons. He

Speaker 2  22:27  
i Yes, well, of course that was, we're still talking about the sort of very early days now. I've been interested to hear about how I managed to set up, even if in a larger scale, several row, and how we got to several row and so on.

Speaker 1  23:06  
That's interesting. We got to several that was very simple, modern age, this modern age, Desmond made rust, yes, when bust and the promises were available, we heard about it and moved in from police France. That's really where and when the thing really came to life,

Unknown Speaker  23:27  
right? And

Speaker 1  23:30  
with this one that he was quick with them, theater Catherines and everything that was ideal for, for, for a unit. Of

Speaker 2  23:42  
course, little bit before that, it was a unit, wasn't it was before modern age. It was still a spectator film. It had been a film apartment for many, many years. Was bright. They go. Think he

Speaker 1  24:04  
he'd retired. By which time he retired, Bauman was retiring, and honest, he was all of a sudden, near enough about the middle fifth is entirely on his own. Aaron Bernstein found himself reporting direct to the German and because during the whole period of Aaron's writing, we had about, we did have seven, I can tell you we had seven chairman. We had Lord, hercum, Dr beaching, Sir Stanley Raymond, Sir William Johnson, Lord Marsh, Sir Peter Parker, President Warner. He didn't help him across, but yes, I mean Mr. Stanley Raymond. For example, we went over there and stay on one occasion, there's a budget. And he went out and he drove. He said, Fine, you should know that house

Unknown Speaker  25:08  
really

Speaker 1  25:11  
set you off and trouble and slurry to her. And he'd have a man to dirty chairman, a person called Philip Shelley, who instituted the instituted the freightliners. And we made a lap and made a film on the freightliners. And Philip Shelley was very keen on the freight liners, and responsible for success. So we made a film on freightliners, and Philip Charlie suddenly regarded as his film. And at the end of 12 months, the next time we went off without it, we got the full lot we asked for. Gee entirely the fact that during that Terminus anesthetic, convinced her house of reading that age. From

Speaker 2  26:06  
here. That was a good deal later, of course, wasn't it? That was in the 1960s Erwin sort of crisis. Then we

Speaker 1  26:17  
were breaching. We were that I was preaching when we were there, as to Brian Robertson, yes, we went there. Limit of what time he went to Maryland. But we did the late 50s or so. He went to Maryland. Well,

Speaker 2  26:36  
it said to go back to the early days. I think remember that bill was very anxious to have some sort of permanency unit, and he invited people to join me, to become members of the established staff. Very fortunate to have been invited to that. What were the circumstances? What was his thinking? And presumably, that is logical, but it was also, it was also from an act key point of view. It was entirely a proper thought. You see treaty unit right from the start, wasn't it? Were no problems. We set up our own shop, presumably, right? Can you remember that? I imagine we had our own shop right from the 1949

Speaker 2  27:25  
Well, I think, yes, you also had the benefits of some people, travel concessions and so on.

Speaker 1  27:31  
Yeah. I think the background to that was he'd form show familiar shell mix, not those opposed to show the international Yeah, and they were all permanent staff. And I think this really was, he was very conscious as a welfare of staff. And he thought, you know, they had a civil background, presumably, they should, they work better, and so on so forth. And as we broadly say, he made representations and we came to a compromise, remember, on rates and pain and everything else, but it was all pretty satisfactory. Bonafant's strength, of course, was in some ways, he was also very helpful to the Erwin wasn't me. He was very good at events for the young people. And because there was a selling at that moment in time, if you got your credit, got your name on the credits of the British Transport film, you went to the races, that was a good pedigree to get your name on the because in those days, those early days, this is in the days when nationalism particularly full of good works for the Great British public and so on so forth. And my shell at the cattle school board for a minute. Budgets weren't really a problem those days. I mean, when you sing the kind of films we weren't making, like Journey to screening, which were pretty far removed from

Speaker 2  29:20  
but didn't we have our own the films weren't sort of financed by the departments in those days. Were they? Whether we did have a manual budget, I think we always had a problem about spending as much money towards the end of the year so that we could make out a good case for a proper budget for next year. Panic, New Year's Eve. Money was

Speaker 1  29:45  
not a problem in the early days, not in the 50s. Certainly wasn't, as I say, when you think of the film he did make like during the spring between the tides,

Unknown Speaker  29:59  
yes, the. And

Speaker 1  30:01  
film the terminus. Scott was different because it was relevant natural history films, natural films and the travel films, yes, and but he managed to convince the powers of people we weren't on the track, we weren't money, was not a try Powell until the 60s, really mid 60s, and from

Speaker 2  30:33  
your own point of view, presumably you weren't working with Edgar quite so closely as you will at least wrong when, when I first joined in 1951 because, I mean, you were in charge of distribution.

Speaker 1  30:50  
He was working closely with him on production, and I was on distribution. Yes. Then when Geraldton went, they married, the two jobs together, and girls were incredibly on. He went, Yes, he went to late 50s. I suppose I did

Unknown Speaker  31:06  
all the paper whatever. Didn't want to know about trying to play. She was two feet of paper in the intro, six inches of silly guy. Look at the six inches. Definitely, all the, definitely all the, definitely, entirely to do all the paperwork ready.

Speaker 1  31:35  
And when we used to get it on conferences or so and so forth, he always used to say, Where am I supposed to be next on all this? So I really, really am.

Unknown Speaker  31:45  
Did you enjoy that? Oh yes, yes.

Speaker 1  31:49  
So I worked with remodeled in the forum. The interesting thing is, where we made I was inclined to make decisions like now and he said, Well, I think I sleep on it every turn, decisions about five, but between us, he slowed me down and I emerged from time to climb to speed him up. If I made a real bog or anything, he'd say, Well, you're not on the really, real good form, which are the biggest clown have all talent, one to everything's relative enough, but sort of, that's the way he had a nice sense of humor. I mean, we took lots of things in my apartment, confidential, and he marketed up to reading and show us read and read occasionally, return address to John Pottle, if you like John potters, so I marked it out. Marked it out. For instance, I need to write a very I done for it. We had, we had extraordinary kind of, I suppose it was a tremendous compliment here, the tremendous privilege, I say, Hillier you've seen here, was a great privilege to work with a lot for edge the OBE, the great diplomat, glitter very finely, the outstanding master of visual interpretation and communication. He was not easy. I didn't have a lot of Bradley. He was always the medium. I was just the boss. But having said that, so I was even 14 Noel, until you reached out. 24 so 25 years, I was with every driver in life. Other weekends, maybe bring me up with friends. I mean, I leave him a lady talking, and I jump around here and Barbara, sir, oh, Charles, I didn't think I. Sounding board, your idea is

Speaker 2  35:10  
really what you thought. We used to

Speaker 1  35:19  
go on these. Will be called Star terribling. We used to call it star training, because once you guys went by, we had to justify our Oh, right, no, this is interesting. That's the justifying existence. And we found this with Eric facing the chair and reliable device general chief officers might shoot shoot things up instead, say, then I come in and come in and say what he forgot between us and we came, he said to me afterwards one meeting, because it went on and it was about Two or three our job, because they went through every budget or every department can imagine, yes. And as he said to me afterwards, he said, you know, there were shooting questions. Was left, right and center. And he said, I felt was our thing, table tennis person never get hold of the ball, which is really a mess, summing up a little and we got away with it. Here's the interesting thing, and I stress the word, we got away with it by blinded with silence on, on, for example, let's be very difficult for anybody in the British House in any given area not to see a British Transport film one way or another. What was television? What was seven miles of UN theoretical distribution, and we got down to being tough talked in terms of the cost of the living minute off the screen you see all this kind of jargon. And between us, we do, and he believed, with me, we did the family, we really did. And as you so rightly said, Lord John Noel, so rightly said another together back at the farm the unit, never deliver clue on what we were up to, The problems, which we kept entirely to ourselves and I

Speaker 1  38:03  
you know, this was an annual, an annual thing, and he had tremendous humor about it on the he was so he was extraordinarily coward. He'd leave me to do all the kind of stretching about do you think

Unknown Speaker  38:24  
was the individuals too? I suppose

Speaker 1  38:31  
I thought, Yes, I was a bit of a parish priest that respected. I got mixed up with all kinds of material problems,

Unknown Speaker  38:38  
all kinds

Speaker 1  38:40  
of they always I I quite enjoyed that from the various raptor manual problems and One thing, and we had one chap reported that we reported that Paul there was five parameters out of somebody's money. And he reported, and the police came in and cruise crossed. This chap went on about nine o'clock at night and, well, you can get an hour, but glitch near him, but they're so furious. And I told entity about the next day Noel good for him, and he rang out the boss chat, and tore off a strip. He was very good on that kind of the other interesting thing is, of course, he used to give a Christmas party was really now stand on me so he can tell me he's pretty well out of the office one day. And he said, suddenly, standing Hall, he said, Can I help him? You start to stand by, stand behind this show, and say, That's Bill Smith. You see, I'll talk about when we had, we had eight, nine or probably 10 units passing away when we did the magazine. Yes, quite we did a magazine, monthly. Magazine was regional, was regional titles and customs. What we had about eight or nine units that regional magazine. What was the theatrical, non turtle for the staff. And then it was shown, it was shown in the cinema coaches. It was shown on desktop machines. It was shown, you name it, daylight cinema vans, the whole she bearing. It was, it was called away head, little wire head answers, yes indeed. But you were

Speaker 2  41:04  
talking about this business as well, the quizzing and the star chamber was presumably with all this. I mean, although they were critical, possibly Ed goons held in very high esteem, because he was an international figure. Wasn't that an important factor, though he was always going off to Russia, and he was president of this and he was chairman of that international,

Speaker 1  41:26  
oh, that time, that time because he's on the Film Council, mental health, mental health, Children's Foundation, film critic. He's got six he got six weeks paid for leave on the foreign office when he went to the Russian Festival, and he got bigger than he got bigger than them, as it were. I mean, this

Speaker 2  41:47  
is I was thinking that that must have done us some terrific lot of good thing going, because he was the figure, the international

Speaker 1  41:55  
figure, oh yes, for the very fact he was there to 68 because, which was quite exceptional, but

Speaker 2  42:07  
he was from my point of view, from our point of view, down the path, he was difficult To get held over time because he stopped films used to take an awful long time to compete because, very often, because he was away, he was very much the autocrat, or some gentle autocrat. He wouldn't allow anybody else to take it over whilst he was away, decisions about who was going to speak to commentary, music and music.

Speaker 1  42:47  
I was just wondering whether you

Unknown Speaker  42:54  
sorry I've diverted you.

Speaker 2  43:02  
We could listen back of the press this a little bit,

Unknown Speaker  43:11  
just trying to think about the ping pong rubbish,

Speaker 2  43:21  
because some I imagine that as the years went by, it became more difficult. I mean, there was more cross questioning as the money got tighter and so on, or possibly up till the days of the end of the transfer commission, when we became part of British royal maybe that's when things changed. I thing because we stayed on. We were the only department that stayed on, help keeping the British Transport.

Unknown Speaker  43:54  
Everybody.

Unknown Speaker  44:04  
What

Speaker 2  44:14  
about we also had a strong tower with London Transport.

Speaker 1  44:19  
We did all their all their work, especially when they completely covered the Victorian line from start to finish, every bit of,

Speaker 2  44:30  
yes, but those were, those films was written, were over and above. I mean, they were paid for separately, and

Speaker 1  44:41  
if the unit had been in existence, we live down the Channel Tunnel from start to finish, which somebody presume is doing, yes, but

Speaker 2  44:51  
I mean, I think the I should imagine that the London Transport element was quite important in our in our annual boat. Making the case because of perhaps 30% of the

Speaker 1  45:06  
films were in the late 50s and 60s, as well as the average was about 10,000 in the budget average

Unknown Speaker  45:12  
for a picture

Unknown Speaker  45:15  
in the 50s and 60s,

Speaker 2  45:20  
somebody said once that we cast spirit, we were the equivalent of a cost of one diesel locomotive. Powell, I don't know where I heard that

Unknown Speaker  45:30  
we could have been

Speaker 2  45:33  
because we were a small, small, the gross, you know, areas

Unknown Speaker  45:39  
I'm still trying to think something to do with. His

Speaker 1  45:49  
Dr breaching was a Gary that alloy, of course, he was really useless, a lot preaching, but to put the bleaching climb over, you see which was subject, which was sharing. They put it there with his staff. At least we thought we'd have,

Speaker 2  46:18  
oh, I removed that just a beaching report from having to turn it right very quickly. Before that, we've done one for

Speaker 1  46:27  
brown Robert and the modernization

Speaker 2  46:31  
that was shot on both on television and on film that was it was televised internally. Yes, that's true. 1956

Speaker 1  46:42  
Yes, closely. Second television all headquarters.

Unknown Speaker  46:49  
And then we may be to interrupt 35 nearly everything I shot on 30 Oh

Speaker 1  46:55  
yes, until current. Recently run out fairly recently, just a few codagram films, the travel films, then 16

Unknown Speaker  47:07  
minutes

Unknown Speaker  47:09  
from traveling

Speaker 2  47:15  
the high speed, but we've stopped to Coda Chrome for quite a long

Unknown Speaker  47:19  
time. And last prints,

Speaker 2  47:23  
yes, colorful services, contrast. And then we also had them blown up by Technicolor.

Speaker 1  47:40  
Oh, hard wing and all that. Lot, all blow them up. And we got to the wild distribution, which is extraordinary,

Unknown Speaker  47:53  
absolutely standard holiday.

Speaker 1  47:56  
Some rather good point about Anthony resort. Would

Speaker 2  48:02  
you like if you have to stop you play black a little bit saying earlier, it might remind you.

John Legard  0:06  
Charles Potter, side three. Charles, you talked a little bit about preaching the end of the last rule. But let's go back a bit to Stanley Raymond, who was preaching predecessor. And I seem to remember that the sort of financial side began to get a little bit critical. Then there was perhaps 1961 or it was,

Speaker 1  0:30  
what can you remember much about that time? You know, when there was a bit of a drastic period, the searchlight was upon us.

Speaker 2  0:39  
Yes, I've just realized that the satellite was after Dr beaching, so Stanley, Raymond followed doctor, right. Yes, I see, apparently. And this is when, when our budget was reduced by half and we had to come back to the office and sack several directors. And when I say sack, they were, lot of them were had been taken on as temporary staff. Therefore there was no problem, and we had to cut back to almost the permanent staff, which meant several directors and cameramen and editing stuff, and then we never got back to that same size again. But we did manage to build up a bit but,

Speaker 1  1:34  
but we were still spending our own money rather than we hadn't got to the stage yet. No had to be financed by now. This

Speaker 2  1:41  
came. This came, I suppose early. I suppose this came about the mid 60s. What this is the Stanley Raymond concert and but yes, it came about the mid 60s when, if we made a film for the railway, the department who required the film had to equally provide the money, and therefore, each year, we had to get in touch with the various departments and suggest to them the kind of films we thought they needed. And the skill was to convince them that they did need them, bearing in mind that they were gonna have to pay for them. That required quite a skill and quite a few lunches on whose budget. The lunch is on our budget because it was for our own existence, or continued existence, and not only to be cameras. By which time we were into making films for outside organizations. We were now part of the British Railways board. Therefore all the previous people we had been making films for when our outside, outside outfits, therefore we had to lunch the people and the docks and the hub and the hotels do a real run around and get a what we Call repayment films. And the only money we had of our own was for to cover distribution, which subsequently got even worse when we had to get the departments to pay for distribution. And it goes. It got a bit impossible, but times had changed to such an extent that no longer could we go out into the wilds and make journey into springs. We had to make direct selling films. And one thing we really got ourselves involved with was intercity, which was yes, right in the early 70s, the intercity service went from strength to strength, and This is where we did some very exciting photography, and the British films exploited to the fall, providing lively, imaginative films, which helped to market the new services. And I say as I am reading from here, intercity advertising is done on large scale. And the films included batches of television. We did the television commercials. We managed to risk those from the advertising agents who weren't very happy about it, but we did so for a number for a number of years, but eventually the agencies

Unknown Speaker  4:58  
took over. So. But in the early days, we used to shoot the interior films in motion and so on, so forth, aerial photography. David Watkin, of course, in particular, was involved in that,

Speaker 2  5:17  
and eventually the advertising agencies convinced the advertising department of British railway report that they could do better than the British Transport films. And to be fair, completely fair. And looking back, of course, the agencies obviously have a flair for advertising films, which we British Transport films, perhaps didn't happen. Bang. We were rather serious travel documentary, instructional filmmakers and some of the imaginative stuff, frankly, probably was a little beyond us, but it didn't stop us still criticizing when we saw some of their work. I mean, when you now, when I, since retirement, has seen some of the inter city advertising films that appear on my television. I'm pretty confident we can never matched it.

Unknown Speaker  6:32  
We could never imagine

Speaker 2  6:36  
for the ideas. Oh, right, yeah, for the ideas and the know how. And whereas the interesting thing is that if British Transport films had asked for the kind of budget for the same commercial they the advertising agents could ask the advertising department of br they get away with it, and we wouldn't have, if you understand what I mean, because the board was saying, well, we're not on a profit basis, and therefore it should be much cheaper, so in a curious kind of way. And really and truly, ants is heart was not in television commercials to that extent. He, I think deep down, he regarded all as a bit vulgar, and he was not a commercial. He was not a commercially minded man. He was much more interested in the creative and the imaginative and so on so forth. But not he, I think he regarded television commercials as a Vogue, I think, you know, and he thought that selling transport like that was not really the way to do it. So not

Speaker 1  7:56  
necessarily our job, either. Was it no because we had plenty of other things to do, exactly training and education, exactly within the industry, yeah,

Speaker 2  8:04  
but we did have a stab. We did make some and they were, they were, they were quite good in their time, but they were a little bit sober. But, you know, as opposed to the and, of course, let's face it, I mean, advertising agencies were using feature directors, feature cameras,

Unknown Speaker  8:29  
different ball game, being paid fabulous amount of money for doing it, and so on. Can we just go back a bit. Remember, you were talking about your experiences of

Speaker 1  8:45  
shows to the industry when you were traveling around on your railway coach. Before the war, I seem to remember that there was a period when we had terrific amount of staff and family shows. Oh yeah, in the late 1950s you had a whole game there, didn't you running on from years that's quite interesting.

Speaker 2  9:06  
I remember going to some

Speaker 1  9:09  
of them myself, Seeing my own work presented to huge audiences.

Unknown Speaker  9:21  
Yes,

Unknown Speaker  9:47  
hi, there, oh, here we are. Yes, here we are. Here

Speaker 2  9:59  
we. You're right? Yes, an intensive production film program was started. And again, there were, this is after the war. And again, there were film shows to start, a family and friends screenings arranged as far apart as wake for William and Ben Zenz. The films chosen for the performances varied according to local crimes within the main terminus, the port modernization dream in Norway. What a day. Travelators and so on so forth. Despite

Speaker 2  10:31  
television, the reaction of Rome and their families, these screenings, commissions, films being shown in town halls and other super privileges all over the country was most impressive. They poured in the halls of their wives and families and their hundreds and our many audiences hammering between 1002 1000 when attending these shows, I definitely felt in the auditorium the effect on staff morale, on such films as blue Powell and the modernization series as an expressed to celebrate the railway woman's contribution to national Life has always been one of the objects of our filmmaking, and this subject continued to figure permanently in the staff film shows the extent of the distribution of the films made sure the practicality of our film making in every instant. Distribution of each production was planned well ahead so the appropriate audience was reached to the massive extent and the films produced from the three categories begin with information films about the beat commissions, undertakings. These were designed to be shown to the general public in cinema or by television or non theatrical clubs, designers and so on. They dealt with railways, road passenger road transport in the water based docks, hotels on purposes. Information films to provide the public with the facts about the operational transport system. The better informed they were, the more understanding they reshape they will be when they are next they are caught up in a delay or something similar. And we use the television screens. Second category films travel incentive was also for public sharing to increase the Commission's revenue, they were travel logs, areas recommended for holidays, museums, art galleries and all that nonsense. For this category, television was used, theatrical and non it was common practice for commercial representatives and commercial commissions undertakings to attend non zero showings on the special brochures based on the films. The end of the show, questions were asked by the audience about fares, train times and so on. We did the same thing with Thomas cooks. And for Thomas cooks, an intensive tour travel films was organized by us. Town obviously used for these rather this was arc 16 mill. Arc, 1000 and more people. Thomas Cook personnel at the back. But after the show was over, the handing out leaflets and all that, all the British Railways overseas officers held library of our films. When I say that, I mean America and Canada all over Europe.

Speaker 1  13:04  
And also by that time, of course, the the audio visual, I mean, the Oh yes,

Speaker 2  13:10  
I'm just showing the examples of traffic promotion films are Jane and history and land of Robert Burns Jones, of spring giants Scotland, for sport and all our theatrical edition was paid for by the people showing them. And then the third commission of films, transport films was staff instruction, teaching, initiative skills to commission 720 5000 staff, manager at that time, 725,000 staff, a complete course of instruction. During this time, there was a traditional period of railway operating, moving from steam to diesel electrification, moving from steam to diesel to electrification. It necessarily explained to the railway operation of South America to this new age of technology, they've influenced their attitude and approach. Two BT films produced by McAllister and Sherman were instrumental making outstanding training films. One of the most famous films in this category was third Sam narrated by Stanley Holloway. It was awarded the British Film Academy top award to be the best training film anywhere. This is interesting. Aside, nothing to do with film making, but I got a note of it. Interesting aside is railway technical revolution with a Steven locomotive, it took two minutes to discover the failure and two days to put right, whereas the diesel electric took two days to rotate the fort and two minutes to put right and and we had 950 prints of this type of film was currently in use at that time.

Speaker 2  14:53  
We had over 100 mobile projectors operating in the regions. We had two Cinemark. Coaches just to the railway system, play their part and so on. The rains December, Sweden, then we had films running at various stations during the lunch time for BBC, the daylight cinema. Yeah. Then Gerald Sayers joined us and sent from the central film in it, because he used to be with the Empire film Marketing Board. Gerald Sayers, Oh, yes. Gerald Sayers joined us from the center Film Library and and his staff worked miracles to make sure the films were either by the right place time they in mind the volume they were handing at that time was about two and a half 1000 prints a day or something, and the films was probably, films were sometimes probably, a sponsor in the winter while ma'am is putting on

Speaker 2  16:22  
the putting himself on the moon be ours, putting London to Manchester at 100 miles.

Speaker 2  16:33  
Oh yes, yes, yes. Films have been made for the purpose of interesting and informed both the public and rail staff in the progress of electrification. Other films helped instruct drivers and signals will be handled in the new trains. Yet another carried the vital message of safe conduct on about the electric light. Now the new services had to be sold. And the glance at the titles some of the films produced at that time says it all contact with the heart of England, the great highway, just a ticket, a good way to travel. And then we did the we didn't. We covered the films for the Harper craft C speed. And then we broke fresh ground. Was the railway Technical Center at Derby, filming the advanced passenger train. And then, yes. And yes, and then, then the commission was dissolved. And that this must have been, I was that it was still Transport Commission at that point, about 66 but look of it, which was all the unit went on the wing of British Rail and became the railways film service.

Speaker 1  17:36  
I thought it came. I thought it was earlier. I thought it was early 1950s

Speaker 2  17:41  
early 60s. I but then you see, I notice I say here, when the commission was resolved, the unit went under the wing of British Rail, on which in the railways film service, but it was allowed to continue to work for the wide variety of public owned corporations, largely in the field of surface transport, but on an agency basis, which is what I was saying, wasn't, early on, a great advantage of this arrangement, besides the financial well known was able to offer very wide selection of films, travel to shipping, freight handling, canal crews and so on, and supply attractive package programs. That was the basis of the argument that we could put on a complete transport program. Then we go on to say that the quest of London Transport, the unit undertook the mammoth task of filming the whole of the construction of the Victoria line from 61 to 69

Speaker 1  18:38  
several films, one came out every few months.

Speaker 2  18:43  
We were using, we were using a yearly average of 30,000 copies of 60 mail films, 30,000 copies, 30,000 copies. And these went to certain opposition, because we sold stuff to see to the central office information so that they use them in the overseas offices, and they paid us, and not in the central office. They paid us. British Council paid us. And then, in addition that we did film shows with projectors which were arranged from specialized audiences, such as Rotary Clubs and chambers of commerce, where we go along and put on after lunch, we just submitted every month something like 2 million people watched the British Transport film. And of course, we were making every do our success, our success, with cinema divisions? Oh yes, our success with cinema distribution was quite unparalleled. No other sponsor had been able to achieve with so many complete circuit deals with either rank or ABC, which meant release on 400 cinema the UK to obviate blatant advertising. Charles Mayer of the beat. DC publicity department designed a special BTF logo, which is what you were saying. And then we went on. Then we we got ourselves mixed up in television. And again, we sold to television in quite a way, either complete films or clips. And then I've already talked about, we launched, we was very much mixed up in inter city. And then, of course, there's a thing called union, union international cement affair, which is, which is an early runner of the EEC only, railways only based in Paris, called the UIC and all the films officers of all the European railways this side of the curtain and the other side of curtain used to meet once, once a year in a different capital in Europe and Show it, show their respective films and show their respective films and exchange exchange information. What technical buzz, technical distribution, everything. Then the UIC, the International Fair, decided they wanted a film themselves, on cybernetic on cybernetics. Well, they had a highly professional film, French film in it, as you can imagine, also a highly professional German and a highly professional ton railways did. And we had that anyway, cuddle, I'm a story short. We bid for it, and Jimmy Ritchie came up with a script, and I went across to Paris with him, and we and the man behind it was a Frenchman, actually, very famous French Roman, very famous, and whose name escapes me, all these names do, very famous Man, kind of the George Stevenson of France, and he shown the script, liked it, and we had the great honor. And it was an honor to do that. We British hospital films made his film cyber, which was called, subsequently called Cyber detica. And as I say here, in a very stiff, stiff competition from the French, German, Italian railway filmmakers, which was a very big feather on the biggest feathers, when you realize

Speaker 1  22:33  
we did it, then France and Germany was it on

Speaker 2  22:37  
Germany in Italy, who were no mean can't think of his name now, it doesn't matter. Very famous Frenchman, French railway, and then, as I say here, because in the 70s, then out till then, each region in British railway all over the country had still photographic outfits

Unknown Speaker  23:05  
I put up to put out to answer the idea, I forgot to answer the idea of makes sense if we took these over and make complete,

Speaker 2  23:19  
Make a complete kind of visual communication outfit of a self stated wellness. Okay, Charles, are you to manage it? I'll back to you which and it involved. Always involved, I suppose, 60, 7080, people in various parts of the country, and they were all tired to unions and Christ as well. So I had to do a kind of investigation and wanting another, and had to face the unions anyway, managed it, and we set up the central photographic unit, central photographic unit where all still photography came under and stay and at the same time, of course, we got involved with some video. And I'd heard and noticed that the coward were using close circuit television at pit heads Dyson wasn't there whereby they go along and make a program. So again, I said to Anthony, pointed this out to him. He said, Well, make of it. So the people who were doing it was an outfit called Zoom television, which was headed by a man called Peter Thompson and David Coleman. The BBC chap was involved. So I went with guyson. I always remember it. I went with Francis down in South Wales. I think he drank a bottle of whiskey before he got there. On the train, and love it. I mean, I don't drink whiskey, but a lovely day with him. And I watched all this. You see, I came back and I said, well, to Ernest, we could do the same thing in our workshops. An interesting thing is, when you go to these workshops with a training film made by worldwide, if you like. There's an actor doing this and an actor doing that, you know? Well, it's a film beautifully made beautiful. If you go to the works, which is what, exactly what we did do, and we went to all the works. And you pick out a bloke who's lost an eye. He's lost an eye in that works. And he says to you on the screen, I don't want you to do what I did have to do. And then takes how this force I and put it there, which is what he did. Take his foresight. I don't want that to happen to you. I want you to not be able to take out your eye and put it there. So I went to these workshops, Where's Peter Thompson, and we met the Works Committee. And these are works you see works are committed, and we said, we're the program of you chaps taking part, and we just shoot it. Because I noticed when I went with the coward, when they showed the professional worldwide picture, beautifully made, they carried on playing the dominoes. But when they saw John Legend take his eye glass out and put it on there, they didn't want to domino went for Burton, Christ Yes, I remember that time. I remember the time

Unknown Speaker  27:08  
you've got your audience, don't

Speaker 2  27:10  
you work like a charm. And we went to works. We used to get there on a Monday with Peter Thompson, John Shearman, never forget. I am using it talking to John Shearman, using that filthy word video in those days, filthy, just No, not sharp, not pin sharp. No account. Never it never worked. Charles enough, you know, anyway, there I go to the works. On a Monday, we knock a program out in black and white in two days, 20 minute program with Peter shooting, Peter Thompson shooting and one other chat. Then on a Wednesday, we we show it to the to the works, and we show it, and we put on we put on monitors in the various works, day shifts, we showed it at midnight, two in the morning, and night shifts, everything all around the clock, and we were out at the end of the week. We used to go on the Monday. We were out on the Friday night, and the whole thing would

Unknown Speaker  28:24  
just cut 1000 and the interesting thing is, and this was accident prevention, nothing else but accident prevention.

Speaker 2  28:38  
The interesting thing is, immediately we left. The sale of safety boots went up. Immediately. Sale of safety boots went up. The clamor for crash helmets, whatever you call them now, and various bits like that. After about six months, it tailed off, and you had to go back. Nobody is saying, I said it. Nobody is saying this is going to stop accidents. But it created an awareness, and it did, actually, and they had league tables on accidents, you know? And it did, don't get so we went to every works in British Rail, and I didn't and so wisdom and was regarded as a bit of a traitor to the films. And I'm exaggerating to make a point, but, but dear John he he regarded it. He looked at it as stage managing. He regarded like a one day stage act, you know. And he was very good person that was not very good on it and hadn't got the patience was Jimmy Richie. Oh, yeah. But John was good, and was very good value and and very good value indeed. And as I say, there was the glass eye one. I. Remember, we did, we did burns, we did a chapter of Stump, all various things. And you can imagine, you know. And interesting is the authority that a television screen has. That television screen has an authority it's been on the telly, you know. And that's John up there, you know, they talking. But if it's, if it's sir Lance Olivia, the highest in the land, or remote screen, now, doesn't mean a thing. Yes, it's different, different. And that was a very worthwhile and that was the beginning of of br Being involved in video. And then I wanted to get and it was all my life's ambitions, was to get the unions and the board on the same screen at the same time discussing problems, but it was an ambition I never managed. But the interesting thing is that we went, the other interesting is we went to the Railway Board saying, look, you've got a board meeting this morning. Okay, we can we video it and then show it to the staff you see? Or can, when at the end of the board meeting, can the chairman come out and say what they decide? And so the interesting thing about management is, when you get very to know how to say, You know what? I mean, it's very interesting. Oh, you know they don't. You know it was, it was quite an eye opener, but that was the beginning of of that. The other thing is, of course, that we also, as I say here, each program was tailored to a particular workshop and featured its own staff. The whole exercise was outstanding success. We also used closed circuit television as an aid to what was called Personal personal presentation techniques, a selection training of B officers who might be invited to address the public, especially on television. And we engaged BBC interviewers for these sessions and afterwards as a playback and the Nessie inquest, at the end of it all report we made on those taking part, quite quiet and asserting Mr. A will be recommended as an excellent spokesman for br whilst in respect of Mr. B, every bit as good at his job, might be written on no account should this man appear on any public platform. And which, which we was involved in,

Speaker 1  32:48  
Richard Lindley, wasn't it? You used to do the interviewing Richard Lindley. We

Speaker 2  32:55  
were always embracing new film techniques and innovations as guests, and video is an exception, but if you just said that video, I didn't realize. I say, I said here that it could be said that with video, we had taken the board on albatross. I didn't realize. I said that, yeah, film motion was never cheap. Often, the unit encouraged joint sponsorship, several organizations share in the cost. This could present problems. BFI guns could be made a much smaller budget. Took less time to have a more versatile at the request for video grew. The demand for films became fewer and far between. It's a far cry from the heady days of the late 50s. That was the heady days of the late 50s, the swinging 60s and the early 70s, when the unit had a packed production schedule with at times eight to 10, four man units on location, plus augmented editing back up at base, when our films are winning coveted wars of film festivals all over the world, over 200 in total, over 200 prizes.

Speaker 2  34:12  
And then we, then you see, the be arts decided the maintenance of his own film, and it was no longer viable. I like this elder, very strange. What films at the end of the line? Elder breswin, that's you. Elder breswin had given a Fon farewell. Younger folk sought past years new a few stayed on as a small br Old visual service which exists the day I got here. I got an anecdote here somewhere, and just jump off. I've got here the as all the celebrations of the 25th remember when? Right? Yes, party. Got the book. Yeah.

Speaker 2  35:00  
A bt, if the BT, if theater at work. And I noticed the Alfred Hitchcock, Glen green, amongst others. Remember when we had the piano interval Williams? We did

Speaker 1  35:11  
indeed, yes, that's right, he played through his pianist played the score through of England.

Speaker 2  35:20  
And see famous the reduction of social documentaries housing problems and enough to eat in the 30s, as well as a young team of filmmakers formed by Grierson, files of the British documentary. And on our 21st a cable from Grierson, then in Canva, set the seal dear Ed you Ansley, I bow to you on your honorable anniversary. You have truly done good things.

Unknown Speaker  35:47  
What year was that

Unknown Speaker  35:51  
I'll have to get 19? October 70. October 70? I

Speaker 2  36:06  
Yeah, this. This is a paragraph which appeared in the press. The opportunity of NC of 49 was to practice gray since creative interpretation actuality in the area of public transport, and to bring alive on the screen the spirit that must animate any successful public service. How do British Transport films response measure up? No Film Unit has ever used images for such a variety of purposes, nor has such a variety of styles, from cinema verite to cartoon comedy being used before by a single team in a single area, the films have been cut, have been literate and, as a rule, technically impeccable, the point some critics have said of glossiness. They have been acclaimed internationally by the stadia, film services, panels, and have queued a record of theatrical and television showing, very rare for sponsored films. The account these films are given of public transport has been such as to enhance the prestige and viability and viability of all forms of public transport during the period since 49 the British turned 40 is action. It would be wild. Remember, a few other people have contributed to the success of this great unit, Larry Lee, John Piper, Michael redger, if John Slater, Stephen Mary Peter bartmore, Stanley Holly, Warner, Williams, then he goes on about Martin and Williams all that and stuff, and take him back. So then I think there's a final kind of thing here, which

Speaker 2  37:59  
says, So somebody said somewhere, one of the finest units in the world.

Speaker 2  38:11  
Oh yes, here we are. So next time your train is delayed, this is right. So you may like to take comfort in the fact, if it had not been for British Rail, Britain would never have been had one of the finest, perhaps even the finest, industrial unit the world has ever seen.

Unknown Speaker  38:33  
That's modesty for you. Amusing. The anecdote going right back before the war, we

Speaker 2  38:41  
were doing a film show, you know, the Iron House do everything, yeah, and it was in the local, is in the liberal club at Coventry. I can see it now. We said we had, I remember, had tea in the geisha restaurant. Anyway, we got there at two o'clock and set up, and there's a wish drive on. There's a wish drive going on, and it from money. So my election being, my projection has been what he was. He said, Well, I don't put him in the dark. He said, I'll connect up lies. I don't know. I don't want to put him in the dark. He said, All playing Western brother Shane. He knew what his act he saw. He said, I'll set it up. Live The Lion, the flash screwed over, melted right down to his down to the safety handle, just like that. We were immediately surrounded by all these women and men who played money, who went and they got a marvelous hand at wist, a winning hand. All the dark, all the bloody dark wanted to do this bloody electrician, to put him in the dark. You see. When he being a being a Cockney, he had a pretty quick answer for me. I can only think I could have lost my bloody money, and they because in the shuffle, they don't lost their hands pitch back and I can they were really religious, because, you know, I and then we we were somewhere else, and we sat in this couch. You see, my two used to be the frost at night in very I used to get myself hitched up to a steam engine. So we gave some steam heating during the night, we were in sidings. We were over the place, and we were blessed bloody cold as frosting the inside the windows and in the remember those hot water bottles, aluminum ripped. So I said to Joe, I said, Look, we go on the freshmen and get the girls give us some hot water bottles. So we go on to the freshman. I put out two bottles on so she came back. She said, Oh, that'll be whatever shilling is it? I said, it's only bloody hot water. Oh, no, she can actually, I feel it was tea. I thought we weren't tea in there. Bottles for all the bottles full of tea and which absolute truth is. I mean, there's nothing funnier than the truth. And we were also new street Boeing, and the middle of all the sidings, you see that you wouldn't notice not being relevant. But in Boehringer, those days, they used to shunt by the horn. In other words, when, when, when local money was up there, and they're shunning a bloody great train, you know, two two, which meant, you know, or 222, meant something else. You see, we're sleeping. They assume they got my cockney power was main thing. I had a crash in the window. I don't mind you paint that bloody horny so the cottage keeps God's chains of tune down again. The other thing, of course, is that when we went to Scotland, we used to attach us to the royal Highlander train. And we'd be next next engine. You see four wheels. So there's an engine, four wheel coach, and then the rest of the train, and we got our gear in the in the in the brake part. God is a nightmare. These four wheels. You could hear them sorting, sorting out the points, you know. And on another occasion, because they put us in the in the bay at Stafford and the bay platform at Stafford. Bang next door to the main line. Absolutely bang next door, main line. So you mean just going up now, you see, you'd hear all of a sudden, as a wonderful experiences on that coach, but it's a few of the minor, the minor things. Anyway, I don't know how much I think you're running out we

Speaker 1  43:19  
want that. What's the story you Alan, well, I reminded of the

Unknown Speaker  43:26  
you were talking about Bradner and his Packard. Yes, yes, which, which, I think is a rather nice story.

Speaker 2  43:36  
There's a story there, of course, is that we had me, or at least was the film BOSS OF THE WORLD transport, made by passing was subsequently, and obviously shown an ABC circuit, and it was near towards the end of its screening. And then the government changed, and conservatives changed the power, and Peter sarnacc, it's Peter sarnacross, which owned Minister transport. So the first one of his first jobs was to see this film that was describing transport policy. And He came to South and was due to come to several row Well, as it was a minister, brevner needed to be there, and he arrived before the minister came straight to the office, came straight to my office, and said, Potter, I want you to lose my Packard, because it seemed larger than The ministers. And I'm sure you'll understand. Therefore for the next 20 minutes, I had to find a home for a very large black show driven Packard in the West End, which was not one of the easiest of jobs when I managed it. And that story. And then, of course, the whole object of Sonic off was to see this film. I. Having seen it, we had to completely withdraw it from the cinemas. The interesting overall, and I mean overall, existence of British Transport films was this, that with each as and when a government changed,

Speaker 2  45:20  
there was always a new transport act, and we as filmmakers had to, quite often, completely reverse our previous film messages to match the new government. So therefore one could not really have strict, strict views of one's own, because they were governed by government. Government changes. One moment you would be advocating the real railways were a public service. You and overnight, you find yourself making another film where I was gonna got to play their way with equal conviction, which is really what we changed half a dozen times. And you know, it's as simple as that we every time this was an global ability. Who was a lifelong socialist, as I understood it, but equally prepared to make productions that illustrated the conservative point of view. I.

Speaker 1  0:01  
A spotter side for this Erwin. That ability to change horses was the main reason why, the only reason why we be staying in business, otherwise we you know, one thing you couldn't be is

Speaker 2  0:30  
not at all. What do you think of the sort of later years? Did he get? Did he obviously, as he got older, he found it harder work and so on. And the it was more exacting, in a way too, because the circumstances had changed. Well, was he when we moved from several road to Melbourne house? Was that a big change? Do you think, from his point of view, I mean, apart from the physical one day,

Speaker 1  1:00  
he lost. He lost a certain amount of autonomy by coming back to the headquarters, by coming to headquarters the first time, when he was at several row, he was master of his own empire. Got his tent. Whereas, of course, when you come back to the headquarters, you under scrutiny and you lose a certain amount of independence. The other interesting thing is, of course, that is, he was chief officer films, which, incidentally, I put him up to because he was appointed as films officer. And after a few years, I said to him, if you really want to be rationed with you want to get the word chief in front of your name, which he did.

Speaker 1  1:58  
And as what irritated him was that he found himself, for example, he found himself subservient to attack called Lawrence, something Lawrence, when he first came there, Lance was very junior, and, of course, occupying is that? Bobby Lawrence, yes, occupying the post, as he did for 49 to 74 which is 25 years, quite a people, quite a few people that were boys when he was first there, became his became his bosses and his superiors, which I think did infuriate him a bit, and not infuriate him, but annoy him a bit. He found Eric some anyway, and he maintained his outside interest to a great extent.

Unknown Speaker  2:59  
I can you cut it off a minute?

Speaker 2  3:06  
Well, there was a certain reason for that, actually, that he stayed longer than he expected. Was it not? Was the not? Wasn't the time to do. The fact that he had a plan to be going off with Arthur Elton to do some television series, or some been dead, yes, but Denise Arthur Elton died just about the time Edgar was originally going to leave. This is what I accepted, and that Edgar stayed on a bit longer.

Speaker 1  3:30  
No, no, you hadn't I was involved Anthony on the whole dreary business of his successor. I

Unknown Speaker  3:40  
think he was, you know, he was, he almost thought there wasn't anybody. They sound a very funny thing to say. Bear in mind the people that came up for his being success. I mean, we all

Unknown Speaker  3:58  
put our names on, I remember I put my name down, Jeffrey

Speaker 1  4:01  
Jones, all kinds of weird because, I mean, I think you better cut this off too, if you may. This is what I can tell you, only because it sounds big headed, but the terminus, you know, the film. Well, the idea originated was me. This is in print that you you originally the idea only, the idea only the thought, tell you why. Yeah, because I used to travel up from here to be recording this. I used to travel up here working, and I used to watch these signalmen that waterloop without handling trains every other minute you see. And I said to Anthony one day, I said, there's these chaps in this signal, rather like playing the piano controlling the destiny of 1000 people. This is my general idea. And from that grew Thomas, because, you know, this was the and as you know, you've seen from the film. And. And so Subsequently, I went all of the investigation I did with Schlesinger to all the various parts all over the base, and he had a chat from the BBC shot it. Who did in his annual leave, not shown as Ken Higgins is. He showed us something else. He showed us Ken Phipps. Ken Phipps, but in those days, it wasn't the thing to because he was attracted, and as I say, I am moved around with what's his name. Now, the interesting thing is that when the film and made in a show in cinemas, the RSP the Director General, the RSPCA, Director General wrote to beching, saying that this child was crying should not have been treated the way he was crying. Should not have been treated the way he was in the film. He should have been lifted and not pulled away by the policeman, you see, because the only reason the child was crying, because was anyway, so that was that. So the letter went from the beaching, from beaching to Anthony, to me. So, you know, let us do this, don't they, if you start with my desk, would I see this director? So he came to see me and say, what I just said, you see? Oh yeah. I said, Yes. I said, I fully understand. I said, but you've missed the point. I said, the whole point was making that film was to show mothers and parents that they can get a world news station and lose their child and they don't have to worry. And I mean, you know, I got away with it. Yes. The other thing is that we can, you stop? I.