The British Entertainment History Project

Forename/s:

Brian

Family name:

Shemmings

Work area/craft/role:

Union (ACTT)

Industry:

Film

Interview Number:

170

Interview Date(s):

4 Dec 1990

Interviewer/s:

Sid Cole

Alan Lawson

Production Media:

Audio

Duration (mins):

235

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Interview

Interview notes

behp0170-brian-shemmings-summary

SIDE ONE

Born 1935, Richmond, Surrey. Moved to Stockwell, London; educated locally and at Henry Thornton Grammar School, left 1952 with 4 [GCE] ‘O’Levels; went into insurance as a clerk; 1953 Royal Ordinance Corps until 1956, local labour exchange directed him to a job at Pathé labs, 109 Wardour Street where he was taken on as a Positive Examiner; recalled to Army Reserve (Suez crisis), October 1956, demobilised later that year and went back to Pathé labs and became the ACT [Association of Cinema Technicians] ‘shop’ secretary. He talks about his family involvement in trade union activity and how he became the Deputy to the Chief Shop Steward, then joined ACT as an organiser in 1960, under Paddy Leach, looking after the labs and ITV; in 1961 he moved to take over the Features and Shorts division, where he stayed until 1966. He then backtracks to talk about the ACT ‘shop’ at Pathé Labs and the wage scale, negotiating with the Lab employers.

He talks about working with Monica Toye, Daphne Ancell [BEHP Interview No 80] and Alf Cooper [Interview No 62] on ACT committees. He talks about the most outstanding negotiations when they were able to ‘tamper’ with the differentials, when they met three from each side to consider the problem and when the results of their deliberations were put to a mass meeting, at the ABC Cinema in Hammersmith. He also talks about the relations with the AEU [Amalgamated Engineering Union] and the ETU [Electrical Trades Union] (1966). In 1979 the FLA broke up and then it was back to ‘plant by plant’ agreements – he stresses that National agreements are important. He next talks about the various new technologies, the speeding up of printing, less staff, the regional laboratories. He then talks about his experiences between 1961 to 1966 in the Shorts and Documentaries field, about Ken Gordon, Gloria Sachs, Terry Trench, The [British] Transport film Unit etc., etc.

SIDE TWO

Continues to talk about Shorts and Documentaries, Ralph Bond[ Interview No 18], John Taylor, Steve Cox, and about negotiating with ASFP, Neil Brown, the Film Producers Guild at Merton Park [studios]. He then talks about his time with Feature Studios and Productions; he also talks about Frank Kelly, Bill Rule, Charlie Wheeler. The unions are now under heavy pressure because of the state of the nation. He talks about BFPA, about Jobfit [ a skills training initiative], the Shop Stewards Training Courses. He then backtracks to feature films.

SIDE THREE

He continues to talk about MGM Studios and about the Lee Brothers, Brent Walker, and Cannon. He then talks at some length about various of the ACT officials and in particular about George Elvin; he also talks about Anthony Asquith and about the amalgamation between ACT and BETA [Broadcasting and Entertainment Trade Alliance].

SIDE FOUR

He reflects on the various moments throughout his career and how he hopes to continue after taking early retirement from ACTT.

[END]

Transcript

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This transcript has been produced automatically using Speechmatics.

It provides a basic, but unverified or proofread transcript of the interview. Therefore, the British Entertainment History Project (BEHP) accepts no liability for any misinterpretation of the content of this interview.

However, the BEHP wants to make every effort to improve the quality of these transcripts and would welcome any voluntary offers to proofread this and/or other interviews. If you want to help, please contact BEHP Secretary, sue.malden@btinternet.com.

Show Speaker

The copyright of this recording is vested in the Ac t t history project. Brian Schilling's union organizer interviewer Sid go with Alan Lawson recorded on the 4th of December 1990 side 1 Brian. It's interesting you talk to you since we've known each other for a long time in days. So tell me. First of all about your shop in terms of when you were born. Your parents did and where you went to school. I was born in December 1935 so I'll be 55 this month actually. I was brought up predominately by my grandparents in Richmond Surrey which was the the town of my birth and then my mother married again around about 1946 and we went to live in Stockwell in southwest London and I went to Henry Thornton grammar school. In Clapham Common between 1947 and 52 52. I left Henry thought the school after getting the magnificent sum of four levels and I went into insurance as a very junior insurance clerk doing the normal junior insurance clerks jobs of filing and post and things like that. And then in 1953 I joined the Royal Army Ordnance Corps and did a three year stint. I signed on for the extra year and then I came out in 56 mid 56 and didn't know what sort of job I wanted and I went to the local Labour Exchange at Brixton and in fact they suggested possibly a job at the old pathway from laboratories but when I know I'm Waterstreet which is very pretty strange because I mean I've come full circle. I mean I started one of nine Wall Street in the industry. I'm now working at one on one Wall Street just next door. So I seem to have gone full circle actually and I went and I had the interview and obviously they were desperate for staff but they took me on and I started as a positive Examiner. Under our bill Sharpe actually Bill was the charge hand in the department. With Queenie Turner's sort of Deputy charge hand Bill of course at that time. I didn't know Bill that well because Bill suffered quite badly with his health and so Bill was off work quite a bit actually and I think he retired probably about just a few months or so after I joined python. But he's very strange because I've been a path I was only for a few months and then come October 56 I was recalled for the serious crisis and I joined to Corps headquarters which was based under the War Office and then we went there again as a clerk and I got my phone and I got my third stripe. So I became a full acting sergeant then hit the dizzying heights of acting sergeant right but not substantive. And then we went out to series. Well it would have been in December. I think there was a couple of months planning and then we it was in December we went out to series and in fact I we went out and series that long a couple of weeks. And then of course the conflict was over and we were sent back home and I arrived back in Southampton on my 21st birthday in 1956 and then I was in my career path I bought a strict and in fact became active then union wise firstly as a shop secretary I think on the basis there again. And our shop secretaries are not easy to get up to me many people keen to do the describing as such I interject there. Did you have any previous interest in school in a school. How was that. Tracey through history because I was always keen on history. I was keen on the on the trade union movement because because of what I'd learnt and read historically got industrial. Indeed indeed. So was there any connection in the family at all which I did. My father my stepfather so my stepfather was an electrician I was a member of the team you in fact I think Frank Chapel was a charge and it is actually when when Frank Chapel worked for London Transport the London Underground system my group my grandfather wasn't. My grandfather was old fashioned Tory. Has another profession. My grandfather he was aircraft fitter at the old Hawker factory in Kingston. Which became despite which is now being closed because as we know. And then he was demoted then after that after the war. He sort of he went into motor mechanic trade as I usually do background of. Working class. Oh yes. Oh yes. I say I did get active in that path a water street and then moved up the scarf from steward to deputy from Surrey from Secretary to Deputy steward to steward. And it was in nineteen sixty eight. March April sixty that I applied for the position at a C T T I think I wanted to organize this at that time. And I was successful at a mile long and just got. So having come from the EU and we both started on the same day that was the twenty third my sixty. And then I started in. ITV I used to help Paddy leech who. Whose title was on the strange titles Deputy Senior organiser I think that was his title. I used to help paddy for a year or so in ITV and also did the lab side as well. And then it was 1961 I moved across to the old feature division and there was a reshuffle of staff was less why I was came in I left came in 1961 and Les move was put into independent television and I went across to feature films and I also took the old shot shorts and documentary branch or under my wing as well. So I had the two eye features and shorts and docs and I stayed in that those features for about five years. So that 1966 I think roughly same. Pace back in Yeah Deja prisons in the course you mentioned. Yes. Important. As were. Industrial life and frankly I should have mentioned your uncle as well could you meet some people. Yeah. In connection with yes voters and in the organisation. Yeah I met another another one who was an influence I think on the within my laboratory career was was thankful I don't I'd forgotten to tell Frank. Frank was always giving me words of encouragement during my period at pathway and during my my stint as a lay officer pathway. Another one I think who who was encouraging was a steward by them of Jimmy Olga and Jimmy. I mean I think Jimmy's probably gone out to the industry now but Jimmy was always encouraging along with along with Queenie Turner because Queenie used to do the sort of local shop Treasurer work at Cathay because they weren't deductions at source unlike some labs which were deductions of source. Patti always relied on the the shop collector system. So the shop collector every Friday paid I used to go round collecting subs. Tell me something about the wage wages and conditions in the lab at that time it wages war. I think I started at the princely sum of nine pounds a week and that was probably the lowest of the rates. Was exam was about the lowest of the rates but the the gap between bottom and top wasn't really as far as the wage scale was concerned wasn't that big really. I mean the optically and I think optical was only about twenty two twenty three pounds a week according to the remembering back to the old scale. Yeah. In those days it was it was about twenty three pounds a week 24 hours a week and he would have been he along with the I say he because I mean they were there. There was no female optical printers in then but the optical printer along with the probably the greater the site greater with it were they were the top grades about those you had the laboratory supervisor which of course it was it was a lab supervisor who was praised for the way it was treasurer was treasurer of the Union at the time yes yes he'd taken over from probably probably stand will be maybe I didn't know stand there'll be much in my profile days because he was bass down it at parfait L Street in the sixth day mill but which is part of the old Ellesmere studios so I didn't really come any time I saw Stan was what if he came up on from industry on second on holiday relief and things like that. Same time I saw Stan called Phillips. So if was the Met was the sort of managing director so he'd come up through the ranks. She'd been quite worked quite hard in the union. That's why I think he was quite active obviously before I joined the lab so. So it was always a good good friend to see Titi. He was never unhelpful. I think obviously so remembered his old roots you know. And you got involved in when you came in and became involved in this. She knows yeah Alpha coast the Ralph Cooper was was the chairman of the lab of the laboratory branch committee at that time. And basically Alpha off had a continued and uninterrupted stint until he retired. Really. And Tony Cummings took over one lot of negotiations and I wondered if that would have been once you were connected with probably where there's a terrible bloke who was a sort of accountant or lawyer or something who spoke for the laboratory people and perceptually I thought we were I read an article in The Sydney technician saying that he gave me the impression he thought it was he was in the 19th century. It was a blow struck him but nobody was me was the secretary of the old film laboratory employees and he was a nice guy. But anyhow you were on those men. Oh yes. Yes I was involved in that sort of sixty one sixty one negotiations and then obviously back again in 66. But to me to do something like that that's fine because the the laboratory employees had their association from the butcher association and their secretary was a guy by the name of Bill struck an old Scotsman who also had two or three other little trade associations under his belt because obviously I mean if he relied on the SLA as it was to pay his rent and to feed him he would probably starve because I mean it that obviously the subscription of the voluntary companies wasn't that high. So Bill had two or three other little trade associations and he was in office just in Leicester Square and Bill was a nice old chap I see. He was a barrister by trade. But Bill liked a bill liked to drink. Bill did enjoy doing and he was good company actually. Of course I used to have an occasional drink with. Oh of course of course. Yes yes. Because there's many in those days you could in fact you could talk to lad managements unofficially and you could get agreements in the back by the backdoor method and you could get some good deals actually. I mean I can remember a deal at the time of the Labor Governments period of restraint pay policy. I remember things put about 1969 or something like that. I remember going to see Ray Duffield who had just been made sort of managing director of rank labs going to see Ray. And I think he was he'd just been divorced or was in the process of divorce and he was he was sort of living with his secretary daughter and they were in the Royal Lancaster Hotel which was a rank hotel and I think it was the the sort of the Knights of the big chaos ball. And I remember going to see Ray because we had a of mass meeting on the Sunday morning trying to get an extra one or two percent on the deal. And in fact it was quite funny. I was in Ray's bedroom talking to him and there was talk in the background getting dressed for the ball. We were talking of you know I was negotiating a little bit extra for room for for the lab agreement so I could take it back to the lab mass meeting on the on the on the on the Sunday. Yeah. Which was good. I mean I think we've got about 15 percent or something. I just I pushed him up from about 13 to about 15. You know if you wanted to get rid of you I'd probably say there's even your dress but his DNA 0 4 for the evening ball of the big guys. That was quite funny when you got those sort of experiences in those days you could do it then you know management. Well I think managements were more amenable to your approach more approachable that was you know approachable and they were more. They had a different attitude towards unions and that was that as you said a lot of a number of people like Philips so that come up through the union work technicians to begin with before they became administrators. Yes. Because I mean just a rank I mean rank always promoted from within. I mean does it feel right that field took a long time and respect for Ray actually. But Ray Duffield came to rank from the Northeast and he came up with a sort of a low a lowly accountant and he moved up through the the the management the lower management ranks he got to general manager with Bob Dibley was probably was the M.D. after more Bob I mean Bob Bob was and always he both our union activist actually he Bob was quite active locally rank I think rank act and I think Bob was active and and he was I think it was a sense of diametric control up that was Bob's trade as such but Bob obviously moved up through the rank management strike Bob Bob came across and it wasn't he was like the others the old Olympic laps. Yeah yeah that's true. I think that's why he was a sense of control. Obviously when did you first encounter two stalwart leaders want to go to. I'd love it when I was a lie officer a pathway I used to go to a lab committee meetings and it wasn't long. I mean mom was obviously fairly newly elected then at time at that time from Frank Denham I definitely was the secretary. I mean Daphne Daphne remained Secretary unopposed all of the time the Alf was chair. They were never opposed actually. Alf was i f it was I got an awful lot of respect for her. I mean he he he Peter Myers the the the laboratory industry he he was tough but he was also very fair with management. He was always prepared whilst he may have outwardly had this sort of bullish approach. In fact when when you got negotiating where and when you sat down with Alf that negotiations he always was prepared to listen to the other side and not close his mind to what they got to say he wasn't what he was. He was very much a laboratory supporter in terms of he understood the economics of running a lab. He understood that you know it you know there was a limit to what you could. You could ask for and Alf was always he would push that he would obviously push managements to do to their ultimate offer but he always knew when that ultimate had been arrived at when they'd reached their their top level that they're their maximum. Yes. Yeah I think over that certainly over the years Alf has done a ma done a marvelous job for lab workers lab members. When you started it I suppose it was beginning to be true that the lab really could afford to start paying a bit more because they were getting a lot of work. Yeah they were busy. You had a lot of labs. I mean you had you see in those days you had you had Humphrey's labs which probably had about 400 people I suppose wish you had Technicolor which had something like twelve hundred people employed. You had rank denim which had I suppose about six to seven hundred you had Olympic which was over the old bank rank Acton but had about I suppose a couple of hundred and fifty two hundred people. You had colourful services just opening up. And they probably had about a hundred twenty. You had parfait. There were two labs. You had a Wall Street and pretty Wall Street and I suppose combined they had a couple of hundred people on their payroll. So I mean the lab industry was busy. You had KS of course KS Finsbury Park which. In the case was Dean which of course was was the the NEWSROOM lab part. I think it was also the part they did the process blue film the nightshift unofficially to monitors were attached to the studios distribution side. You had because you had entered a very busy MGM had a lab attached to MGM labs you say in the in the early very early 60s they they opened up from being a special effects that with Tommy Howard they opened up into into commercial to a commercial lab because they they bought some some gear of Technicolor in fact they they bought processing equipment after a Technicolor. Yes. I mean because no sooner they got into full swing at MGM when they closed. Which was unfortunate. Oh sure. What would you say was your most outstanding memory of your work. I was in my office. In the lab area in the 60s I think the one thing I was always proud to do was was to sit down with the small with the joint negotiating committee and we in fact categorized the lab agreement like the wage schedule which wasn't easy and we dared to tamper with differentials in other words. Which is always always very dicey Sydney as I as you know always very tight when we dared to tamper with them. So what did you do. Well we sat down we had we knew we had there was a two part settlement with the lab employers an overall increase of X I think is about probably about 5 percent or 6 percent and then there was a further 5 percent put aside for a restructuring of the wage schedule and the differential. And we sat down with a small subcommittee of ourselves I think three aside I think there was Alf I think Daphne myself and three from the MLA that was also struck and when we wrote I think that I think wrong we wrote from Technicolor sorry Derek Mills Derek Millicent technical and Ron hadn't come on the same end. Derek Miller's Technicolor and I think it I think it was George Tenix from Perth abs because it was 1966 before and Patty loves closed it because in 67 so 60s I think was tonics came along from Patty loves and we sat down and they've I found them very rewarding discussions so that you know in terms of what you can do if if if two sides actually sit down together they we had X percent I think is about 5 percent so we knew what we had to play with where two sides were able to sit down there's no arguments we knew what we were the sort of parameters we work in and we had a target and the target was to get this categorise y schedule which we did and we took it back to a mass meeting and in fact it was the first mass meeting that I had. That I did myself. Are you without George I mean George came along but he said overdue because he's so you you would believe it was the work of the ABC CFS in Hammersmith the one the one on the Broadway Yes I mean one of the arts right because in those days in those land mass meetings because we used to invite these two officer along for time officer which I think at that time was Tom Little liner I think and also the a new official which was Len Charlton from the sample from USO district office because Len there was still there was quite a big EU membership within the the two of them Technicolor. But tell me more about that because one of the things that I always remember is what good relations we had to see we we always and we still have but we always had some negotiating rights within lads from top grade to bottom grade including looking after the to the electrical great and we always negotiated on behalf of those grades but we always of course kept the A you need you informed as a matter of courtesy they were quite happy. They were quite happy to to announced it to negotiate on behalf of their members I mean we never we never recruited obviously electricians because I mean if we'd started recruiting them then we would have had problems engineering problems we never sought to recruit the skilled tool makers who were a few they were time served Hey you to make a school people and obviously they didn't want to join ACTU they wanted to keep up there you can't we always recognise that but you know the two unions always allowed us to negotiate on behalf of their members was I we always invited them to the mass meetings and so I know I always remember Len Charlton on one or two occasions when when the members of been less than complimentary about what we were taking back to them then standing up and and speaking on behalf of the of the settlement saying that you know you wouldn't have got better you know that that sort of approach is always very helpful to to have those full time officials from the other unions present to ask you how would that rearrangement in 66 and how hard it was a membership took it to the mass meeting I mean remarkably well I mean we started at ten and I I suppose it must've taken me about half hour to go through a stage by stage by stage by stage what we'd done how we'd about arrived at this sort of thing what it meant. There were obviously lots of questions but very little very little if any antagonism towards you I think wanted to there was there was a guy by name of John Allen who is half a Wall Street and John was a pain in the arse John was I think deputy steward pathway at that time and when whenever the steward was on holiday at sort of half past eight or nine o'clock on the Monday morning you'd always find John Harvey outside so Philip's office with a problem I mean I had be the bloody problem on the Friday. There was a bloody problem on Monday morning was a business knew it was a lovely John John was exerting his own sort of self-importance. Oh yes I mean but but John always got his words mixed up he was a terrible terrible what he was he's got things arse up and back to front you know spinner as a sort of spinner as I was in many respects. Yeah. Oh yeah. I always remember John Allen Oh yeah the white cloud buffoon in many respects that was your worst moment that. Moment was that this guy get back. I think it must have been probably in the 70s getting sand over land mass meetings. That was a wise claim. That was a wise claim. I think we've we've sort of had the temerity to negotiate some sort of productivity arrangement. I can't exactly remember the details now said but I think yes we've we've sort of negated negotiating some sort of productivity arrangement and the members were prepared to accept a cost of you out. They were closing the deal. Yeah we have to go back. There was I suppose that was my worst moment. But I mean overwhelming the membership were. My blood must be justified because you could never actually gauge which way the many swings which way a lot of them were going because you had a lot of a lot of anti. I mean whatever wise result you took back to the members I mean it will never satisfy everyone. Sure. But you could never get always started off with a lot of the people attacking the deal. You've always picked out the people that oh Charlie Jordan from rank Olympic the Olympic labs. Oh Charlie always attacked. As a matter of principle always attacked the deal. And then you got you got his brother Fred. Then follow him. And then several others used to follow you. I always say who was going to take the deal. I did. Oh yeah. In the first half the meeting always seemed it was going it was going again you know. And then one by one you've got you've got all the stores like Lane bank. Then we'll get up and speak and speak very effectively. Then you get a bit later on you get Tony Cummings who would stand up and speak and these these were people who could actually you know control in from the floor a massive meeting. A lot of people at meetings generally I think about the people who are satisfied or otherwise you know. No no no no. But then you could see the meeting crazy swaying late in the second half the meeting as it got towards voting time at about quarter because we used to start at 10:00 and they used to we used to have to be out by 12:00 because the cinema. Because we always use cinemas. They had to get ready to leave for the afternoon performance. Plus the pubs opened at 12:00 anyway. So we we always aim to take the vote by about quarter 12. You know 10 12. Coming back to the fight the antagonism towards agreements and things like that. Was it. No. Oh yeah. Well for want of a better word the US which we haven't got the last always being treated like dirt. I mean you talked well and he got us great length. It was when you started with how they were treated like dirt people remember. You've got a spring you got a you got a mixed race Yellen remembering back. You're going to mix two of the of the older members but also some of the some of the younger ones as well. Pax climbed on the bandwagon because it was the thing to do to attack the platform and accuse us of sellouts and things. I was afraid but it was like I used to like land mass meetings I know I quite missed it when in what was nineteen seventy nine when the the labs as a group because the management group broke up. And there was no more laboratory Association. One went to plant by plant by plant bargaining so you didn't have the mass meeting that was better. I always know I always I'm a strong believer in a national agreement at least a national agreement sets the it sets the standard. Okay it's nothing to stop you have local local deals it's local bargaining. On top of and in fact this needs to happen because you had people like Monica would would negotiate on behalf of a whole department if if technology in that department changed that she was able to say I was Paddy O'Gorman Danica able to negotiate for that department as a plus right to the police you had your standard you had your standard agreement you vote and then you mentioned something which I was going to be which is the developments the technical developments in the laboratory since you started to. Yeah. Yeah. Oh yes. Yes. I mean I mean and this has been the the I suppose the the doubt the downfall of in terms of numbers employed in labs. Because I mean you had technicolour who went away from the DI transfer process and I always I was always a great believer in that dye transfer process because I can. I never worked on it obviously because I never worked a technical but I always thought I always admired a Technicolor print. It was always sharp and clean. Okay. It took a long time to get to that print stage. On the day on the diet with the dye transfer process. But once you got your first print and then every subsequent print was the same. This is this is the beauty of the I mean the I mean I sold it to the Chinese and I mean the Chinese are still using it. But this is the beauty with the dye transfer process. Once you got your first print then no matter if you have 400 prints of a of a subject the last print was was the same technically quality wise as the first print which cause it doesn't always happen nowadays with wood. But I mean in those days because you used to have big print on this big print orders. The diatribe. I mean most most productions carried you know we had two to 300 print order on on a first feature. That because then distribution patterns changed so print orders became smaller. Apart from say a bond or something like that. But your your normal first run feature your first feature usually had put in probably the 70s mid 70s was you start to get 30 30 copies 40 copies Nancy say you know what happened after the dye process and I went to Eastman color they changed over to me and they changed that. Yeah yeah yeah. They became the same as rank in that respect is one color in direct competition with rank. What else. Because the speed the speeds went up because I mean they were probably they were printing out of something like this. I think they probably printing now I have it a few years ever since since I've done that I figured I came off labs in about 1980 but I appreciate something like 600 million. It's very very fast. Very fast. And they were they have very large. So to 3000 foot rolls of stock that they put onto the machine now and it takes a truck to lift it up. But of course once it goes it goes all sorts of I would pray every precious thing speed it up. Speed up was was the big thing. Certainly that was the big thing in that process and the speed up the new equipment required less people said know it it's a fact of life at the end of the day. And that's why Technicolor what they're down to what 350 probably less possibly less three Humphries of course went out of business. What was that. I think just lack of work. I think it was because of that related lapse the title of. I think they were owned by Beatty weren't they. I had a Beatty influence and they weren't prepared to fund it anymore. Rank took over because you had the you had the regional plants because I was that was that was an interesting development the opening of the regional plants in the 60s. Rank. I saw sorry Humphreys opened a plant in Manchester that was the first one I think I was in the sort of GSA about late 60s. They opened the Manchester plant that was really to service Granada. Yes I was going to say that because of the rise of television to service Granada. I it's obviously coincidental not. Coincidental with the introduction of colour in broadcast television and the Independent Television wasn't there when he needs. Yeah they came in they came a couple of years later about 1970 I think you'll find loved the leads that wouldn't be connected with Yorkshire y TV with my TV got. That's why prior to that all TV companies always had their own little one person lowly junior black and white machine. Which took them for that for their black white material but because it was colour then that became impossible. As has been your day with the small things side sidetracked slightly Beaconsfield was a studio that has a little laboratory which is sort of one man breaking into. Do you ever deal with it. No. Another one that I never do that are probably gone that may well have gone that lab at that time may have gone into late perhaps because in from studios went in about 64 before the war. Yeah yeah yeah let's do a screen national. And you took that little labs down that's the screen service which was really a trailer a trailer replace Chris Cornell's organization the organization he worked for. They had a plant with a little processing plant at a prayer vigil. On the north side of those great labs and also Connor. Yeah I mean you know Brent went as did reads because you have reeds in water just along the roads here just passed around house. So these past rocks just past Fox there was steps between. Yeah yeah yeah. Reed reeds was a good old lad. I mean these Army reeds was was owned by Alec Tozer and Jack London was the old lab manager then a member remember memories. This is where our lab management ceased to cooperate. I mean before the current Tory employment law that I remember in probably the seventies mid mid 70s there was one person who was a clerical lady clerical work reads who who wouldn't join the union no matter what we tried. So I said to Jack Lander Well if you don't join the union don't pay the blatant cost of living increases you say you can't do that. And he didn't. He went screaming I said Well you know if you join the union then then you can can you can have the increases. And then she joined she joined. Yes she may have I mean she left the industry now but something that does an example of labor management cooperation. I mean you couldn't get no one could do it. They couldn't do it legally now. No no they lay themselves. Well I didn't I could on the basis that they did they have. They didn't have to pay any increases right. The agreement between the union and and the management. So those are not union members didn't necessarily have to but it was good because one always felt I think the stalwart union members felt that it was a bit odd if people who weren't in the union got the increases. Yeah there was I mean the union was obviously it was well supported. I mean I boss people probably had. It was a post entry close shop no less I mean meetings were always well turned out he was got decent turnouts at that lab meetings at the local shop meetings some local shops always pleased to see you as well they make their shop meetings I mean you know stalwart branch. They were the industrial muscle of the Union because when I mean early on I think it's true that when the teachers needed some sanctions to be operated. So. That. We could. Say well what we would do is we will block it. This is trash. Man is old case is lab labs were always helpful on him and his old case where you've got a a road producer who had long pockets and short arms. Was slow to pay. An individual individual members of the unit you could always say well turn to lab work where that material was being processed. Do us a favor hold it up. And it had a salutary effect on me very very quickly producers used to suddenly find the money and pay the people because they are going you can't do that now because that's considered a secretary action which is now totally taboo. You know unfortunately we go on to experience and it wasn't very. Competitive especially in shorts and documentary shorts. I was the first the first people I had the shorts and dogs was sort of 1960s when you're sixty one to sixty five sixty six when I went onto land again. I went back on to lives. I mean you have people like Ken Gordon around then. Gloria Sachs was still around. Terry trench obviously was still around. You had of course the the big film units perhaps pennant staff units such as cobalt film unit British Transport films worldwide. Me though all employed in excess of 30 people each degrades each. I mean they they were a fine source of of permanent employment. People like for instance that fine director John Irving. John I. John was it British Transport films. I think John was an assistant editor. I remember John as an assistant editor. Remember John used to sit on the the short documentary branch committee for a little for a year or two. If I only saw that remark I saw John I took Marilyn up to Crewe because they're shooting there's a fox a 20th Century Fox version of Robin Hood being filmed. School called I think it's called Woman Good actually. And John Irving is directing it. And I met John a guy up there crew on on Friday last.

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Branch Hemmings assigned to write this interesting sort of interesting people really short documentary. I was thinking of the life. Raft. Yes. I mean Ralph Ralph. Was very active because his shorts and dogs. He wasn't. In fact when he was on the committee at that time he did. He was general manager of AC DC films in that in those early 60s there. But I mean yes I mean he was a great documentary supporter. John Taylor. JOHN TAYLOR HAD WASN'T SO active then. He was sort of a manager. Yeah yeah yeah yeah. But you have to imagine Gloria you still look Steve. That's why Steve Cox of course of Steve. Oh Steve Cox was secretary I mean he was secretary shorts and docs branch for years. Oh Steve loved a glass of Guinness. Always Steve. And he always will Steve always wore sandals my winter and summer snow rain he always wore sandals Dave. Because he used to work for a company for a long time for a company called TV cartoons who then had their offices in think it was in Dane Street TV cartoons when things do. I mean in shorts right now Steve was their editor permanent staff editor doing animated films from for several years actually. Did you negotiate a short documentary. It's not a bad sign. Yes we did. The we we negotiated them with the old SFP and in fact they the secretary the answer was It was an old union supporter John Neil Browne. Oh yes John Oh John O'Neill Brown was the he. He was at work. He was at Producers Guild at Merton Park studios he was sort of personal manager at Merton Park in the very early 60s and he came across in about 63 I think to the eyes of P while they was still separate. I mean a bit later on they joined up with the OPI FBI and came under their administrative wing but at that time they had an office in number two Boucher street that was the SFP office. And yes we used to we used to have negotiations with the owners of B on an annual basis because was with the of B then predominantly was made up of the film producers guild group of companies I rank really. That was the ISF pay like they dominated. I think the answer of pay because the Guild the guild deal from producers good I mean whilst they were only paid minimum rates they stay. They sadly observed the agreement and it was a good training ground for a lot of a lot of technicians who have moved on up the scale and into bigger things. So it was a very good time to go to a different attitude to documentary. Pay rates for less and because we acknowledge would you say that the documentary was something important. It was important and obviously to be encouraged. Also it didn't carry the sort of the budgets that that feature films carried. It was a historically an area of those in those days a permanent staff. That's right. I mean there was so many permanent staff documentary units around I mentioned transport films cobalt show had a unit quite a big size unit worldwide. And that's just a name for the bigger ones. Did you deal with some of those sort of stuff like that cause you had the guild you know the guild a group of companies which are the people you know. The history documentaries like battle right. No no no. They were they finished before I came on the scene I think I said hey got Edgar was a guy was. He was he was transport. He was transport films he was in charge of transport so but whilst transport films were never members of the ISF pay of the employers federation they always followed the agreement. You always had that situation where some members of their trade association. But they all followed the they followed to the letter. You know they were prepared to accept it. Only knew about you mentioned it was connected to the Union very very early days. Yeah he was Treasurer. I think maybe he didn't in any magic he probably. I think he probably could well be I don't know but. Yes yes yes. Anything especially outstanding you remember General about this short documentary you. Really know nothing nothing stands out in my mind really in those in those in those in that period. So I was also defeated because at that time I got to say that brings me onto features which features a very different studio than either of the. Actual. Documentary. Studio based. I mean you've got very few location based features probably all of them were studio based because you had thriving studios you had Shepparton you have Pinewood you had MGM you had a BPC history you had Merton Park and you had yeah you had closed that sixty one sixty sixty one an interest after it. Yeah Twickenham cos chicken was a hardy survivors and I survived as a survivor took him with a survivor who had begun their post-production said denim. Denim and 50s denim went in the fifties it all went fine. But they were all they were all bursting at the seams and those days feature studios and of course you didn't have the preproduction meetings then with the full time officials involved the preproduction meetings for studio base pictures was done by the Joint Committee because each studio had the joint works committee of comprising each to you ACG anarchy grades and lackey reps and they were quite powerful the joint works committees in those days I mean for instance MGM one can remember Harry downing Harry. How he was MGM in many respects Harry was was a boss he was on MGM payroll he was that he was the the senior Nat King Steward and chairman of the joint was committee and Harry never did what one would call a great job there he had an office and he did full time unit work basically paid for by MGM there was a tradition that really started I suppose in wartime it is generally unions the situation just before your time with the convenor it was all but my sense was better yeah yeah obviously because she was yes well yeah Richard's you know as part of the sensible industrial setup that kind of Catholic mass right. Centre the voice spoke for the entire. That's right. You said the the full time officials got involved things like pre relocation meetings prior to the locals the overseas location the company had a pre location meeting then the convenor of the convenor of those meetings was all booming guy who was the Nat key studio divisional official need to eat you official then would have been Dick Reno. And that's when the the the full time officials got together with with the company was on pretty location meeting and of course they were always timed particularly if they were well even if they were based at the studio but certainly particular firm based in the West End Like if Paramount or Columbia was one of their pictures they'd be time for 12:00 noon bill would deliberately set it by 12:00 noon so that there'd be a lunch involved afterwards that was that was always did this I mean. Yes yes because I mean just because you finish you finish by about 10 to 1 you say so the production company with the PM felt obliged to invite the union official for lunch. Now tell me something about the personalities. In those days you had I mean a man who had great respect for was was Frank Kelly who was old lackey full time official. But I think he'd had a run in with Tom which O'Brien because it was genocide. Mackey at that time Anne Frank became personal manager at Shepperton. Frank Frank was a lovely guy. He suffered bit with his health but he was very very straight honest guy. And I had an awful lot of time for Frank good personality. Bill you had as a studio manager at Shepperton. It was blue ordered me out the studio once for organizing a dispute or something was a thing. Hijacking Putney it was a it was a small film. Who were observing the agreement. And I was trying to drum up support in the studio. I mean it's not just a stoppage on hijacking Putney but on other productions as well as saying you know basically all the bases. Do you want to work with a black unit because I'd been at the the film have been black by the by the union and in fact I was I was escorted off the premises by the security officer on the orders of Bill royal actually. Okay. I went back a couple of couple of days later because I mean all hell let loose with me out of the studio. Watching. So the studio city committee which means Charlie was quite prominent. Charlie without a doubt I mean you were coming to Paris and now you don't get many many more characters in Charlie. I mean Charlie Charlie if he had a vicious tongue Charlie. But. I always funny enough said I always had a good relationship with Charlie on the basis that Charlie would if you from an official point of view if he if you made a mistake he would pull you out something rotten. But if you went to him and said Look Charlie I made a mock up of this okay. He'd give you a rollicking there and then but then when when you reported it back to the branch committee he would then back you up. So he was quiet he was he was he was quite fair when things like that. But I mean he was he was a he was a man with a turn of phrase was there Johnny yes he was he was chair of the feature division. Yes he was for many years a bit of a dictator. Yes yes. Yes he used to. Yes he did this to direct totally from the chair. You know see what you just said to me was interesting that if you do. Mr. Veeder of yours is organized to come up first of all the branch committee Charles would probably protect you. You went to him you could treat your dad as it were. Yeah yeah yeah. He'd give you a rollicking there you know you you were in for a rollicking but then when it came to the branch committee then fine he would he would back you up and support you. So I mean Charlie had his I mean Charlie had his own style. His own way. And. Charlie was very proud of the feature agreement. Charlie was very protective of the feature agreement clauses relating to to travel first class travel element. I mean if if members were brought up in front of the feature division committee for taking a first class ticket for an overseas location and then trading it in. For the cash difference between tourist and first class and they came up in front of the FT division on that sort of charge. Charlie was quite unmerciful women were quite a quietness really. He really went to town you know. Oh yeah oh yeah. Crewing I mean on the on the crew clothes on the floor the famous for forum for camera for sound for Charlie was very protective of that. He was trying to be a bit tight. Yes. Towards the end sound changed later on when the equipment became not. When the equipment became miniaturized as such when the big soundtrack dies down to the smaller no growth slowed. Yeah. He couldn't. I mean he got it. I mean God bless him he turned in his grave if he could see someone occurring brokering deals now that go on. Well I know everything's collapsing out basic. I mean yes I may still be trying to maintain the film agreements but obviously we're not we're under pressure to negotiate this draft an agreement which covers type as well as film where we are and not a pressure to concede the concept of any five consecutive days out of seven consecutive days. Are you did your. You're working five days is not necessary Monday to Friday. It could be Tuesday to Monday was Saturday and Sunday as the rest of the Monday was Saturday and Sunday as part of the normal working week at single time. You know it's your first. My personal feeling I don't like it but I mean that's my heart. Talking I my my sort of brain is saying well it's inevitable it is going to happen. The industry's totally changed it. They are competing. I mean there's not that many features being made. So they're making a lot of material for television and they are competing with the broadcast television companies were operating this way. They're all working. You know the sort of twelve hour days that they were scheduling twelve hour days. And unless you compete with them you don't get any any any work on it. I think it's unfortunately the the times we're living in. I think one has got to one has got to adapt. Hard as it may be for some members to accept that. And of course they're Rubio. I mean but when we finally get the draft agreement in presentable form to take back to the membership yeah there's going to be some some screams from the same room some of the older traditionalists certainly the older feature members. But I mean at the end of the day I think they're going to have to say they're going to have to accept it because there's no alternative because if they don't accept it something like that will be imposed. I mean the the two film agreements are carrying on and also the grace and favor basis at the moment because they gave us notice on both agreements. Six months notice in April to terminate that would have run out at the end of September and it's on his bike. So the grace and favor method where they're being continued and a lot of people are observing. Now. I think there are companies that are bending them quite a bit Sidney now. Production Manager. What sorts of things all sorts of funny do is you know a lot of men. Yes I mean a lot of all in deals are going on in the moment. I think with a new with a new concept in agreement I think both are Sunday and the employers association that the TPA as they call themselves now and the IPA they will they're just as worried about the only deals as we I think because they feel they have no control over the situation. They believe that if one gets an agreement that is realistic at least that will bring certain control back and there won't be any need necessarily for all in deals and separate deals and side deals and all these things that go on because I got you talk to members and they always say no we don't do deals but I mean you know they're going to do what they do did Joey reverting to the old yes. Yes. What. Was it you did. Yeah I mean they're going negotiations with the British footballers association and then they they had an interesting guy who was their secretary. Old Horace Francis Horace was like Neil Brown his counterpart another Scotsman. He said it was quite it was quite a good administrator from a briefcase point of view but he I suppose he retired. I think he retired earlier and in Along Came I Just I think the sequence actually I think he was replaced by Darrington came from e.g. Darrington who came from really fusion. He was assistant general manager really fusion. Derry came along as was director of labour relations at the FBI because I'd moved from Mount Street to Green Street and then it was then they went round to central square. I mean twenty 27 central square in that square townhouse they had they had a couple of floors in a square house. And then of course they moved eventually moved to Parliament House in Wall Street. But now Darlington was the the director of labour relations and then hanging inveigled across came along as assistant director. He was quite good sort of. Derry was quite Yeah. He was a good director of labour relations he understood. Labour relations very well actually. He he was he was quite a fair guy. He was always so he was fair to the unions. He was never I never we never had really many problems with dairy because he was a gentleman a gentleman approach to it whereas the guy who took over from him in Megan had a sort of bully approach. Especially in the afternoons as. Well as you that there's a few gin and tonics going in here. His attitude changed a bit. He wasn't bad the invasion wasn't bad because he was very he was very heavy on his own companies if they were breaching the agreement he would not be slow in coming forward and telling him in no uncertain manner that they know that they are wrong. So I mean he he was he was okay. I mean it's a bit different now. I think labour relations directors the FBI was only a bit not keen to tell their companies if they're moving off the straight and narrow. There's a lady by the name of Carolyn Jackson she came from the BBC Moscow but she's um I think she got a lot to learn actually maybe for Carolyn there was John Morton for about five years John was good. I mean Joe was okay. John was a good old labor relations practitioner. He was low grades man 88 wasn't a Labor candidate I think he was. I think he was Labor candidate. John was at the T U C as well. He came. In the 50s he was at the ts and I think it's about 1960 61 he was appointed labor relations adviser to ITV. He was appointed by Lou great and he was with Lou for many years actually until Daisy until Lou packed up and then John packed up because obviously John John's future then wants Louis gone John's future was was a bit dodgy I think. And then that's when John went to the BFG I've place sort of final five or six years up to up to retirement. But John was a good director of labour relations. It was John and John who in fact was along with Roy look at these sort of the instigator of job fit John was very supportive of job fit. Tell us something about the job fit. Yeah the job the job fit scheme. I mean for many years we've we've been looking for a training scheme in film production. I mean years and years and years ago you had the offered tax scheme. And in fact when I in the 60s certainly I used to attend tech meetings not explain the title the formulas the training and apprenticeship council for tech. I used the term for tech meetings not not interview meetings not not for a city grades but for not good grades because the studios then had a very good apprenticeship scheme for craft grades carpenters plasterers and painters. Very good apprenticeship scheme scheme five years going nicely. And this worries me now where are all the trained skilled craft grades coming from. I mean I don't know. Well because that's where they're being trained. They're setting up being trained in this industry because the studios are for now. No there's no studio that employs a plasters shop or such or a carpenter shop. They have a carpenters shop but they like the Carpenters are brought in as a win. So there's no one doing the training. This does worry me actually. The skill is on. Our own industry. Yeah. People like electricity boards train people electricians. I don't think that's right. That's right. And Carpenter carpenters I mean the skilled carpenters. I mean the old sets that they used to build. I mean the sets for things like the guns are never owned by Shepperton the set at the London wonderful set for Grey Friars Poppy the Edinburgh street scene set the great fires Bob at Shepperton beautiful sets. Yeah I mean the set for Beckett when I think they built was it Westminster Abbey did they leave but I think is Westminster Abbey Canterbury Canterbury Canterbury beautiful. I mean they reproduced Canterbury at Shepparton y. But I mean the public would not know whether. Or not in fact actuality. No no. But I think that this this does worry me actually that they don't know where are these people coming from because certainly the industry isn't training not to train now it's own its own craft so great. Is that because there's no apprenticeship scheme. But the offer tax scheme was a good scheme because these the the youngsters used to get a five year course which included day release. I mean they used to go to sort of hammer how Hammersmith school abroad building or Brixton School building on day release and things like that. And they they they got a very good grounding in craft skills as I said that was the Alfred X game but of course that's gone now. And in fact neck beta on the clinical team that gave a beta of I've actually joined in with the job fit scheme is a joke. It started about four years ago I suppose four years ago after pressure after a lot of pressure from AC T because there's always been this this call for a training scheme for for the film industry. I won't recognize that because the industry is going more and more and more and more freelance. In fact it's totally freelance now. Apart from about 2 percent of people in feature film production of permanent but it's very difficult to train. This we recognize is not easy to train people. But I think we were able to persuade about 4 4 years ago the GLC to come in with us. I think it was just before the demise of the GFC. Actually we were we managed to get one. They became a contributory partner financially. So they they funded part of the initial job fit scheme and the rest of the funding was is done by a levy on production. But it was not. A work song. A small percentage. I forget the exact figure. It's under way under one percent of our production budget up to up to 12 million pounds. Anything over twelve million is not counted as such. So I mean it can you can he brings in a few if you should bring in a study. Theoretically should bring in a steady. Income but whose job it is comprises employers and the unions side. It's a joint venture job have their own secretariat their own employees as such and they run the job they administer a job fit and the job fit trainees who are selected after the adverts go out once a year and interviews and then you each council member of job fit is given a batch of applications to sort through. I think it probably a bit like the F and G P to your new organisers. Yeah you do you have a batch of application forms you sit you sit through and pick out the ones you think say the ten you think are worthy of an interview and changes. Only about twelve a year but it started off about twenty four year I actually said but with full production with production now at a low pay I've got armed forces I have got financial problems. And you know it's what I think one is crossing one's touching wood and crossing fingers. That job will continue. I actually do. Or will it change if the trainees come in on a two year basis say their paid job it pay them. They're employees of job fit and they send them out to productions either feature productions or television productions. Or commercials because the commercial the commercials companies also subscribe to a job fit as much as one would like to see but they subscribe and they are sent out to productions. They do a two year course. The first year is spent going from department to department. You might have say three months in editing three months in Canberra three months and sound a couple of months in production. They also do an induction course at one of the recognised film colleges like for instance where Surrey college Polytechnic a central London National Film School. They haven't I don't think I've gone to offence actually. I mean job you have to pay the school obviously they have to pay them a certain amount of money the fee and then the second year they they are sort of they work in the grade that they are probably best suited for. Whether it be camera sound or whatever and they are attached to unit to a unit I come on. On camera they are the fifth personnel the camera crew to leaving aside the grip. I mean they would be the fifth person on the camera. I mean there is no I think I wanted to companies who Frank for instance would use them as the third person on sound. They shouldn't do. They shouldn't do because we say that there's been no training but I mean I tend to that one or two companies to look to see to see them as a source of cheap labor. Do they get the union ticket at the end of that. Yes. Yeah they're treated as if they're a union member. And once they do their first job in there as a graded employee they apply and get membership straight away. It's a very good scheme. Yes it be terrible if it dies I'd be so upset but it may die through lack of funding didn't because of course it replaces a few years back at work of many years back when there were studios because people did have a chance to be promoted. Yeah. Yeah it does. Yeah and it does bring out to a lot of good kids and less dementia because okay there was a lot of criticism of it from certain sections in film production like camera when it before it got off the ground because they say the cameras the good off camera technicians had their own scheme. But I was a bit a bit a bit of nepotism in that. I think it did it. It wasn't opened up really to to the outside. It was any a son or daughter of this person or that person was able to get a job and the camera crew actually paid for there they chipped in and paid that person like that girl a boy's wages not necessary the best way of training. I mean there is at least a job fit scheme opens it out to a lot of a lot of kids who have perhaps never got my relatives in the industry. But I take keen to get in you know I've got some talent I want to get in but it's important to me because there is a great year in the younger generation I detect you. Know. Considerable interest in those. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. It's a shame that so these days. Yes this is true. This is true. I mean there are there aren't the openings at the moment really for for youngsters to come in and there's a lot of good good kids out there who want coming. A lot of talent but how the hell are they gonna get in. I don't know when the industry has got its oversubscribed at the moment in terms of numbers and and with the and with the redundancies now currently taking place in broadcast television. There's a load more freelancers coming out onto the market. You know the competition in freelancing is gonna get even tougher and more fierce. We have training Brian reminds me of going back a long time. Do you remember a time when you were in charge of training scheme in terms of the way the Union operated the shops shop a transition shop steward how did they were they. They were good they were good guys that was in the late 60s and the 70s because I was looking after because the lab if you look after the lab branch it doesn't I mean but it keeps you busy for say a couple of days a week. When you look at man hours it doesn't keep you occupied five days a week not really because because they're permanent staff areas. So you know the day to day problems aren't dealt with by the steward and a member will go to to his or her Steward and find out what their pay rate is and things like that. A bit different if you look out for film production you are actually the shop steward for seven thousand freelance members because they ring you for to find out what their pay rate in my half the call was in full production you get a pay rate course or how you calculate your holy credits and things like that but this didn't happen in labs and still doesn't happen. So therefore it gives you a bit of time and I was always interested in the shop steward training I was always always interested in the training courses that Alan used to run. When Alan was assistant to the general secretary and so once when I left to go to the Guild the Screen Writers Guild which was 65 66 time I took over the shops two training courses and we used to run then to a year because we used to run them in one in the north and one in the south and we used to go to places like we used to go to in the north we used to go to sort of place like Buxton and like car because there were hotels you could do good deals on actually in those days very good deals because you were going out of season you guys October November time and then in the south we used to use Hove. I think we have one thing in Red Hill or some round that sort of area as well but they were they were sort of day courses sort of Friday night Saturday and Sunday and it gave stewards new stewards new committee members new officers an insight into a C T T because we used to do things like the agreements we used to get. We used to have not long ago sort of role playing exercises on negotiations. We used to give them an insight into into the history of AC DC. We used to tell a sort of show them how to run a show. A chairmanship stint. We just have a couple of hours on chairmanship where you could where we showed them the best way you know the way to chair a meeting. How might how to frame a motion. Those basic as basic tools of the trade that that stewards need. Yeah I remember that I used to come in. You used to participate. Yeah. You always were on a on my list of lectures. That's quite true the U.S. doesn't pick me up early and people came to learn a lot. Yeah. A lot of people I mean who came up to you. There was for instance Von Barton. Yeah. I won Swain I think in some of the Northern ones. George Eagle and David Sumner. They all came through the schools. I think in some of the southern ones. Harry Kusher strange woman. Jane Jane Baker who was a friend of Leslie's I was at once I know. But quite a level I mean a lot of. In fact you'll find the people in television the independent television sort of went went on from those courses over the period of time they went into quite senior management positions. Dave some of these days somebody as he became he basically became general manager of Yorkshire TV in the seventies. I mean that's just one example. I mean Dumbarton always held a senior position at Grampians really like a senior cabinet position and of course became the Treasurer of the Union. Yes yes. Yes it'll be interesting sometime to check back and find out who it was. I don't know if the records should exist because they went there so we had to find out who who actually. Yeah. It's only a demonstration of the value of that sort of thing to trade unionism. Exactly. I mean they were. I thought they were very valuable so I mean I used to enjoy organising that schools to fund a lot of the social side of it was always good because I remember the red car school for instance. Well I used what I used to do there because at that time in those early seventies late you had all the clubs in the north the sort of Variety Club the theatre clubs in the north. And I remember right. I mean there's a club there's a club called The Club Fiesta Stockton and I used to get a good feel from in terms of entrance fee from the club Fiesta because I said Oh I'd be bringing in say 20 or 30 people to the school. So what I used to do is to is to lay on a coach and charge a little in fee which cover the entrance fee the coach family. So some members didn't have to worry about that taking their cars. They could like get a coach to take them then a coach to bring them back when the club closed. And I mean we used to have some great socially evenings there. I mean they they went long into the night very long into the night. But they would they would they would go. I mean because I I certainly I got to meet a lot of members of those schools members I wouldn't we say a lab official become involved. Get in contact with because I'm coming from television. A lot of them. And also me. I think it is to the ordinary youth young members or new members to show there wasn't an awful gap between the head office and the Office of General Counsel. In fact I can remember it was. It was in 63 island. One can always say Can you remember where you were when Kennedy was shot. Oh yes and I can remember Frank Lacy and I know Frank Lacy I was sitting in the hotel in Blackpool. I think it was the new the new Lansdowne the new Lansdowne Hotel where I'm not quite sure how long was that the Alan was there. Yes. I was at Bidwell and I was 60 Swayze. So it was before I went to the guild to the scream I just got. I think that's why. I came out. And everybody was in the foyer. That's right. Looking we be having a drink I don't want thought I stop at 6:00 at night the whole time. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yes you remember that. Yes I always always remember when where I was when when when Jack Kennedy was assassinated. That was a week at a Friday night at the weekend school at the blackboard. Coming back to feature film. Yeah. Because. I wondered in terms you won't say anything more about any of the personalities you encountered perhaps on the unions. So you knew there was another one. I mean only cousin was a character and he was a character very much influenced by Charlie. Yeah but Wayland was a character in that as a lay officer as a loan officer. They're going to be influenced by Charlie Dennis puppet. You know there was another prominent person in the feature division at that time. Also on the negotiating committee. So they were characters in their own right management characters. Well I was there was a.. What can you say and you work it was Shepperton is it was the sort of general manager Shepperton and. You had George cat at MGM which you had Alan government. IBP sales to government. Was he the chap we'd been. Oh God no way I can get up now I wasn't there because of the. Tremendous. Because he objected to having having my unit put a camera on his front lawn. We had a tremendous row. We had this production not to not worry about the cultural. Shift. As I spy because he was an ex gardener. I suppose he he always had a two or three permanent staff gardeners if I remember rightly as you. Oh yeah. You guys is a lovely studio I always thought that was. That was a tragedy when MGM when. I mean if any CEO should have closed it should have been a BPC. That's right. Keep it MGM MGM I made a mistake. Yeah. The great thing was I was running up the chain. Yeah I got.

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Brian Hemmings assigned three places you've just seen the complete picture I've. Seen MGM studios I've done it as a marvelous studio very largely because we were making a series and it had the most amazing scene. Yes I always remember going in there and the director and wanting a train. He said What do you want. British American. Russian German Yugoslav Austrian Italian Belgian I had it all there on the scene. They also had an older staff left over from some of the major MGM productions that were made after the art director with and I'll have that staircase mantelpiece. Yeah. Yep. He assembled the most amazing looking set in fact his she was to show just having to put it up a few times I saw it it was a great shame when it went. So many studios have gone in there you've seen it great. Well honestly though and it is tragic to see a studio go but I mean you I mean we lost obviously we lost MGM. We're down basically we're down to us. I mean we lost Beaconsfield. Thanks. Luckily Beaconsfield was revived as the National Film and Television School lost water. We asked what the studios a lovely little studio. What I mean I was a very nice place to work. We saw a half lost Bray Studios. I mean that keeps going by the skin of its teeth but it's owned by a property company who can't get they can't think they can't get at this point in time the permission they want to turn it into offices into into luxury offices because I think a bride is a fairly big moneyed lobby including people like Michael Parkinson who who don't want to know shame because it's a marvellous hammer with a hammer stuff was deliberate. I see on the tax it's lovely. That's right. That's right. I think it was I think it was the sound mix mixer Jock Ney who used to come up to work by boat. Brian Yeah Johnny used to come up I used to sort of come up by boat to work with a lovely white come to work and of course show the future. Well that's why I mean Chevron Australia very much. Yes anyone's certain his point but they'll always be polite and I'm pretty certain of that and it's not very much going. I still think rank will keep as long as rank are in business the low keep the Pinewood studio but Miss Shepherd and because he's half the size it was when I was a young official it was it was it was a large studio it's a very very good studio to work in as well but of course with the with the the John Bentley period I went John the asset stripping period Shepperton part of Shepherd of course was sold in any of those negotiations. To save as much as we could I wanted to not not in the main negotiations. Alan was obviously my ego involved in the main negotiations then but sadly I was on the sort of the fringe that was as such. But no I mean they they were. That was a tragedy when when when Shepperton was reduced in size because they lost a lot they haven't got much of a lot there now there's a lovely studio and it goes course I mean it was I think the Milton Allen group had it at the end. Yeah. And in fact the guy who is Linda chalk is second husband. I think Clive I forget his name him. He was the studio manager because the other studio was falling apart. I mean the big side of the state was in a terrible state of disrepair. So it was a blessing when the Lee brothers bought it. Yeah. That gave the studio hope they were able to inject some money into it though of course John and Benny. I mean their characters John and Billy Lee loved the great characters but because they they've overstretched they've overstretched their time their their resources and because they were bought out by I think a city cynical bank. I mean so basically I think if I separate is now owned by cynical bank not by Lee I mean braced Bray Studios we talked about that. That's right. SHEPHERD Yeah I'm told that Lee brothers yeah and Lily brothers did it anyway. Yeah yeah yeah but yeah I know that I was saying that they'd overstretched financially. Yeah yeah. But also they did they did have Wembley they had released it. I mean I remember John and Benny Lee they they set up. I mean I remember John and Benny Lee setting up their little lighting and their lighting explains who they are. Benny leave a couple of a couple of sparks always sparks who. Wanted to set up their own lighting facility company and John and Benny used to find their way about getting lights lamps. I mean they used to nick a couple of he and Nick a couple would have done and then he started up and they got the name out and instead of Lear set of mortgages on those lamps became the electrics and that's I was on a very start up but they were very good. I mean John I mean they always gave the producer a good deal. I mean they grew and grew and they. In fact bought an old biscuit factory in Kent surprise and Lee international studios and. Are they progressed from there to the old Reed fusion studios in Wembley Park which became Lee international studios which had been a film studio long long. Yes it was. Yes. Then it became a television studio fusion division. And then when media fusion left lost their franchise to LGBT LWOP I think LGBT was there just for a small amount of time. They didn't really want it. They wanted their own new studio which they built label to. Also Southbank. And eventually John and Benny acquired Wembley studios and they had their lighting equipment there. They had Joe don't I mean Joe Denton. Joe was probably Joe is one of the best camera boffins in this in this industry and Joe joined up with John and Benny. They were able to to fund him and to give him financial help to start JVC. Joe Duncan cameras. And of course of that's all gone now. I mean just like John and Benny they they bought they bought Shepperton. They've always had it not jealous. That be the one where they were always looking to do better than Samson. So I had this fierce war with Sammy's. I think it was that war that perhaps brought them down because after they went public and I think they went public about 19 I suppose eighty three four for men they just they expanded and expanded and expanded and they got hold of panic vision and I think that was our undoing actually. They died overstretched. I mean they acquire panic vision at the time of the writers of the writers dispute in Hollywood and so there was no there's no there's no truth there's no work. And you know I think that they will just lay just over overstretched financially totally overstretched themselves. And they were bought out by cynical bank. So I mean they don't I mean roster namely electric still goes and Lee international studio Shepperton it's not they have no connection at all. And of course you're looking I mean talking the things I know you're looking at and Austria of course which is now Bret Walker No I mean George Walker is overstretched there's no two ways about he's overstretched. I mean it's only at the last minute he was able to do to save the situation that last week because I think the banks were pressing him. And I think if he hadn't have been able to get the finance together that was required then quite clearly I think the banks would have put at least an administrator in which means that someone has a one step to step away from receivership really. Because that would have been a shame because I outlined you to what's his name and literal and imagery and images the hands of the Donald Sterling job lovely manhandled and obviously had organised a future for the studio. But he did remember Alan. He wasn't absolutely 100 percent sanguine about it was going to work minute because obviously he knew that at the time that there was a film about this thing. That's right. Because I had it after a BPC so let go the reins and for me in my head it had the studio and then they sold it briefly for a very brief period like about two or three weeks for Alan Bond Bond that it and they made about five million in about a fortnight on it because he sold it to Canon canon immediately though. So I made it when a couple of months stripped the stripped the studio of one of its biggest assets either library a library which was a good money spinner. It accounted for for about 25 to 30 percent of the studio's income on a regular basis. So he sold that to Weintraub or cannot sell that to One.Tel and then of course that was 86 in 88. Canon had overstretched and we're in severe financial difficulties and they sold they sold it initially to a property company and then and then the studio's future was in doubt but luckily hearts met council with very good with council made it a condition that whoever bought it had to give and give a guarantee that it would remain part of it will remain as as as an active film studio. Yeah and that still prevails. Sure. And in fact this didn't accord with the property companies. I forget the name of the property company at the moment but it is in the court with their shields. It was. The name of come to me come to you come to me later here because the trouble the trouble is that I was knocking on if they sold it to Bret Walker you know cause the trouble is that all that sad history really is because there's been a diminishing number of people owning studios who are really interested in making films and asset strippers like Cannon whereas in the old days I mean most of the studio is surrounded by people who for one reason or another who wanted to make filmmakers. So my studio is all people who had cinemas to film like they wanted to. You know like Rankin and like our. I was ABC you see. Yeah. This is quite true. Yeah but I mean that's why I mean it it is worrying about Elektra I mean I can. It would not surprise me put this point is that it if it collapsed because of the plans and they have a question. Very good. All right. We're moving on from the show. George Alvin George George don't know anyone George I mean George is a king in my view. I mean George was probably one of the finest negotiators I've ever had the privilege to sit with and work with. Could you develop that. He had an uncanny knack of knowing how to get the best deal. George. I mean the employers always treated George with a lot of respect. George was always a nice guy too easy. You must admit I was saying George was a good poker player because he was he skated on thin ice on many many times. But he was he was a crafty old fox George. He really was. I mean even even if he really was a great man. There's no was I can I can I can say can can really demonstrate my mind My soul love for George gives you think of any very good governance think of any instances of being a student and clever. Well I love negotiations. I mean I used to sit with him at. Negotiations also feature negotiations some day. He he knew how to strike extract the maximum out of the employer. He just had a way of doing it. You know. I mean George was very plain George was brilliant during the 64 strike when all in all sort of when I suppose when Wilson and how Wilson became involved yes. Towards the end. But George George I don't you know he was a great man. Let's say it was a privilege to work with George. He was always loyal to his officials as well. Yeah I'm just going to say about always I suppose you're always no injuries officials. Did you ever tell anybody off me. He would tell you if you did. You know Dr. Klein I was I mean he would he would tell you off but he would defend you as well. He'd always defend you at the executive. He'd always come in on your side. Exactly. But he was a way to. It was. He never seemed to flap. He never seemed to worry in that respect. He always had a very relaxed approach but he had that slogan across that optimistic slogan. The workers always where the workers always try to remember their work has always been. Yes that's that's why they had condition his attitude. I think because he was such a confirmed believer in the working class and his socialism as a Labor Porter because he had that background family background not having been president for two years. That's right. Oh h h yeah. Secondly the Clerks Union and then had a stint this year as president. Do you see George always I mean George is just so lucky never to get on the you so general counsel. There was a reason there's Tom. Tom it was always Tom always was always Tom and also Tom Tom being a.. Very anti George on political grounds during the George was left and that he was Tom was right when he got influenced by wicked communists on the executive and all that. Yeah but in any case the big unions because we were interviewing our staff on the other day I a at this point the big unions of course tended to go along with Tom as his union was a big issue. Yes well you had you had the I mean Tom always sort of got votes from say the EU which at that time in custody you had you had Bill Karen as president. Are you saying I was not a Catholic Bill Cowan was a Catholic so you had the right wing both right wing so you're always guaranteed the youth vote which was quite large in those days but even so even in the mainstream even the minors I think at that time didn't even vote. I think George is very happy one year when he got the minors vote which was unusual. Yes it's all a big part of it. Yes. Yes he was very my son very much. But of course coincident with George retiring now and taking over use within the two these things change politically and very much so and then got the. And in the beginning is within the sort of left wing ASSOC led just before we leave George. How do you think the membership in general George. I love George. Actually my my honest opinion that a lot of love and respect for George. Does come over at meetings. It's kind of at meetings I mean very rarely did I was George did I ever hear George attacked very rare. George very astute at had everything he could handle a big meeting. He always could handle a big meeting. He was a crafty devil you know. It was lovely. You got man requirement. I always I mean was always kind to me over the years. He loved his sport he loved sport loved football south and united. Got you started thinking about looking up Southend in heaven and you know I was thinking God how happy George would be. Because at the present moment we talking s in the title of the third and looking at the never ever in their lives built into this into the second division and it looks this season as if they might make it just like this. If George is king George always around the sun. That's why he looking down. George always said that if when he died he wanted his ashes. It would be the year of suffering won the cup of sight and he's actually would be buried. Would you like to know that I also serve I look at you. And also Essex Cricket Club because he was a great supporter of Essex are indeed. It's a terrible cheat at snooker or card games so cargo. Yeah exactly. You have mentioned we were mentioning just during an interval that time because you used to be interested in saying look that's right. I mean you organised a game between the sort of the Union as it were and café apartheid in 1964. From what I know of some terrible pitching bumped to a bumpy pitch invasions by George actually played in that group. I do think that I played in that we both managed to and then took a catch. If I remember right in the outfield there was one thing I'm sure George to the candidate is great manager to us among your colleagues. For instance you mentioned much earlier Penny Lee Penny Lee. I mean 20 was a penny was a good official good a good negotiator. Paddy Paddy you mean George let Paddy look after ITV in that respect. George never got involved much in ITV. He left it to Paddy and Paddy built up the early ITV strength. Which Jack O'Connor took over. I mean Jack Jack I mean Jack was another good official. He was a hard little fella but he was he was he was a good things couldn't go so he did some good deals for time for his members in television Jack. No two ways about it. People always said he was it was difficult and they always got along with Jack actually. But certainly he he he was ITV for many years Jaguar sort of ITV you thought of Jack O'Connor you know. Sure. When money becomes a bit like his pipe to me but he respects it. It became his um I suppose not his undoing. But it became you could never take jack off of ITV. I never I think whereas I was able to move more round. I think it's a better thing better idea when when the organisers did move around really up to me that I didn't find it unhelpful I found it very helpful actually to move and that's why I'm able to do ITV at the moment. Yes sure because I did it. I did it years ago but okay I can. I've got the experience. I can I can slot in and do it you know. Otherwise there is a danger. I think it did happen with Jack. Surely it didn't become as you say answering the question his own personal thing it didn't be defended at all costs. Yeah. Yeah. That can not can not. I mean I was very good I'm sure or in many ways for the TV boys but it's not necessarily the best thing ultimately for the union. Not not when you get a distorted view that you're trying to get it. Yes you can. You can't do it because you don't. You don't see the other divisions point of view or the union as a whole although you had all those separate things it was important to keep everybody. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But having said that Jack Jack was a good official. Another official who was here for a few years from Lacey Lacey Frank who when Paddy who moved up when when. But I mustn't forget Bert. Right. Because you tell me about Bert is like George. I mean he's enshrined doesn't he. That's right Bert. I mean I didn't work that long with Bert with Burton senior organiser. But unfortunately as we've not had bad health he suffered terribly with his stomach. And so but was only seen organiser for about a year when I joined a city in 1960 and then after I think it's about 60 61 62. But became the first year the union's first research officer. But Burke was it was a fine official. I mean Burt Burt looked at what sort of was acting general seconding for the four months that George was away with with with TB. When George was off ill I mean Burt was the was the acting general secretary. I mean the unions got a lot to do something a. In those early days it was Burt was one of those people who had a very skilled job lab wise but was not he was our interpreter which was Vonda. As we said earlier on the green jobs in the lab and he probably gave up quite good money. He did to come. Yeah I got my as a teenager. That's right. That's right. So I mean that's because I know when I came I was on 13 quid a week. You're 19 going back to 1960. I came here for 15 quid. That's it. That was the I got came of I was about to go to a better off the other way round with Burt at least he would have been. Yeah he'd have been a bigger gap probably worse off. Yeah I think that when he changed I think they were getting optical printers getting some round about 20 22 pounds a week. Yeah I mean it's probably more than George was getting at that time. So that's right. That's funny because I mean. When George when he's 19 when George retires 70 to about 70 to not just touch somebody to where he's like yes you must be insurance. He's right. Wouldn't have been much more about three thousand threes when I it's a problem really and because all that well is I you know that problem probably earning your best money before inflation really started it created quite a problem. Well I mean at least you see that he took over went for Penny Leach left in 63. Patty was taken over from Burt a senior organizer and Frank Lacey was he came from the co-op and Frank was made up to sit organizer funny 63 and 63 64 so that's all the time. Frank was a. Frank was a very bright person actually Frank I see. I mean I think part of Frank's trouble was he he didn't like Jim. He didn't like work because when Frank came he was looking after BBC wasn't he. Frank where Frank was assigned to be looking after men which I organized when we. Didn't take him much. No no no no no no no Frank. Frank Frank was pretty much very laid back relaxed very relaxed. And this is possibly one of the reasons he didn't get when it was decided by the old after the original efficiency committee report when they decided that they should be an assistant general secretary. Yeah well I think this is probably one of the reasons why Frank didn't get it. Yeah and Allen did because he came back from the Guild. Yeah. I think it's possibly one of the reasons I don't know that. But Frank Frank was capable when he applied his mind to it he was very capable very bright. But no he was as I remember. No I admit I would do. Going on your show. Yeah sort of. Wasn't someone who had a tremendous sort of drive. No. No. No. No no. But I remember very well we just got a Joe five years with Joe and Joe. I he came with a wealth of experience from the air you know. You know I didn't follow the obvious I learned things off Joe you know. You do. I mean you know not sort of at the time. You don't think you you know you're picking up Mike but you do you do pick up from this from the experienced because you had a very very bad brother bad treatment structure. But John was a victim of the of the the the right wing within the ABC because Joe was an executive a full time executive committee member who decided he would run for general secretary and at that time. You've had to I think you had to give up your post to run. Yeah. And Joe against all I think all the advice decided to run against several how it and how it beat him. Yeah. Because to write obviously because the right word was supporting Howlett and Joe was out of a job. And I think I was there also that day some way if I remember rightly he lost his picture right. They allowed him to keep. That's why they allowed him to keep his house is his bungalow important Polish bar. But yes I think they did. They did the cut off his pension which you know I think is a pretty rough show. They didn't treat him very bad which is a shame because he was after all he'd been around for many years really not retiring. Yeah. He was a he was in fact a contemporary of Oh ted Hill boilermakers. Yeah. Gemma secondly they used to go round together and they were within the Confederation of engineering unions engineering shipbuilding unionism. But I mean judging by the wealth of stories to tell about the I knew about the old days and engineering. But I was Joe was a local good good official but obviously felt very hard when he came to adapt to I think very different racing to or the entertainment industry ways because he would eat and he spent all his life engineering. So they had a way of doing things which was different to ours. But I mean Sammy I always had lots of fun as well so he was always and I didn't ask you about Les you disappeared was somewhat under a cloud. Yeah he did. I mean less than his own worst enemy. I'll say no more than that. But he had he made a contribution to AC detainees in his years. I suppose Les must done. He was he was 60 when he came in 61 and I think he went what. Mid 80s early mid I think he's been gone about five years now. Les says about eighty five so easily 20 in just over twenty years. Yeah he was a good official I mean. I mean this started in television first and then he moved on to film. Mean he had that so he looked after the print shop. Oh yeah. The time at the time of the the the the tops the charts. Oh yeah. And the early 70s by Iran and Battersby and not just rhythm and uncut. I mean it wasn't an easy time for him. Not an easy time. I mean he was a good bloke in college you're always gonna like Lesley do the same thing about anybody else. Where we come really to Alan. Alan Yeah I was going to go on Charlie. I mean I've always had always gone well without I mean I think he's a good general secretary. Alan hasn't got George's ability to do to to thin ice skate. Sometimes Alan says things when suddenly he goes to he rushes into print the press sometimes would it be more politic to keep still. It's a question of sometimes his brain doesn't always engage at the same time as his mouth is that with Alan it does. I mean it does drop him in the in the muck at times you know. Because he you sometimes you read things and say those posters and you go Oh no I wouldn't have done that. No they don't. Having said that is why he's he's been a good journalist. Yeah I mean he's you know we miss him and when he goes he's got his own he's put his own stamp on OWN the union yes he's made enemies. My buddy. I mean. There was um I'm. Fortunate period with the with the people who left to join to form the TPA. I mean the McLaren is in the pizza Boat types you know who have Roscoe's anyway. You know they were rascals. Do you think Alan didn't handle that as well as he wanted. Possibly not. No he left himself open I think. I think he left himself open on that because he you know he said certain things at a certain meeting which in fact weren't quite accurate. Well he did leave himself open but also because he didn't have George's workshop with outgoing no kind of not as I know I'm not an old man which I always travel Spanish of course. Was right. He couldn't he couldn't. In fact he couldn't really communicate the membership. No I mean George was better but it was much better than that at a large meeting and a gentleman at a mass meeting I don't always think I want this done. This is ground groundwork. I think he speaks a bit off the cuff what he should do a bit more probably more often. Yeah I think data. Yeah I think that's that's a fault of balance but he's a good man to work with. I mean he's great. He's been very good to work with and he leaves you alone. Let me let let's get on with it. Which is so simple if you put your words the old phrase which I think I learned in all those years ago. So you don't keep a dog and bad about yourself that's right. That's right. But apropos reverted to mentioning George again Chris there's another person it's important that you would have had some contact with I think Anthony Asquith would say yes yes yes. Tony was I mean Tony was a he didn't attend to me general council meetings probably perhaps a two year and need said obviously chaired conference. But I mean there again. So Tony Anthony was it was it was a gentleman. I mean he was one of Lofton. He was always courteous and polite and no one could really take offense at Anthony who. Even those conference who are perhaps in their in their attitude to the chair could be a bit bully. But you can't nobody ever took offense with Anthony. No sure. He was he was a very good president of AC DC a good figurehead president yes. When it was traditional to have figurehead presidents. Anthony I mean Anthony was the ideal man. He had the right connections wise. I mean he was he wasn't of the left. He wasn't of the right. He was in the Liberal Party and I think people accept it. He's you know he's he's he's terrified. Great thing about now is fear. We said this before is it. After he became president and a member of the Union when he didn't absolutely didn't have to let the user his name and what it represented to the union. That in itself was a tremendous thing and also a very difficult time and a difficult time. Oh yes. Oh he was a good friend. Yeah. And he couldn't before. Very forthright two terms yes you know. Oh yes I remember a time at the BBC I read that when I was about organising the film department thing you remember how and I remember going I think I must've been with George Anthony we went to see we met the deputy director. And there'd been a letter in which under certain conditions the BBC had said they would recognise the union and then they reneged on that. And I think it was very bad to say that we had an insufficient percentage of membership. And I always remember this you know quite gentlemanly Anthony pointing it out and then saying but you. So you lied didn't you. Come on admit it you absolutely right. You know this is in the Big Board we've been put in place to the deputy director was involved. Nobody think he could do that. Yeah but he was a matter to destroy extreme principle. Yeah. Oh yes. Oh yes. And I take it from him as well. Sure. Because of his recommendations and he was I mean on this two to three occasions standing in the rain it sort of Kodak recruitment meetings. Yeah yeah. I mean we we recruit recruiting at Kodak. Yeah I mean he was always prepared to put himself out for the union and do difficult task at times you know. Yeah but some. It but I was sort of going back to Alan. I mean Alan let's go to continue he's been a good general secretary. No two ways about it. I mean we've been very lucky. We had all the years we had secretaries and he he did raise our status to you say yeah level because the years he was on the team as a general counsel and became president for the year that you see it they've raised it raised our level certainly we you've got one more left know got seven. Right. Right. OK. You got Roy. Yes. Right. I mean Roy I get on very well I mean well it was Roy who were really competitors for the Digest job I suppose I was looking at what about nine years 10 years doing whatever is time doesn't mean let's pretend ten years ago now somebody nineteen eighty. Yeah. We both said well you know whoever got it because we both shared a taxi home afterwards it was a snowy evening and he lives in Croydon I live in Worcester Fox so he's he's a little bit further on the me. So it made sense to share a cab home and we both said you know whoever gets it we'll work with each with each other you know no problem no hard feelings I think that's what well I mean I've always gone well with Roy Roy is a very very hard worker. Yes very hard work he does put an awful lot of effort in and he's prepared he's always enthusiastic as well on subjects. Got a lot of time for boy I mean he doesn't get on with every one of our colleagues but if you do the work you've got. I mean Roy will will is quite happy. But if you if you know if you if you slack if you're idle then Roy does. It does get upset because he is a grafter himself. And yes he doesn't know a heap outside bodies. He sits on he does do very well for a city to be I mean I don't I mean it be interesting with amalgamation. Whilst I won't be part of any Amalgamated Union I mean I've always supported him out there because without him I always supported amalgamation. I did in 77 it was such a tragedy when it went down on the second ballot because it was it was the right thing to do to is to merge with the CPS. At that time I think you'd probably agree. Yeah. So say also you'd agree I think with what I've always got. Well even the previous time that the if we'd done it years ago we'd be in a much more commanding position in the animated union. So our influence would have been much greater and much better. So it would've been in 77. It would have been quite clearly in 77. That was that was the right time to amalgamate them. So what you see is the advantages of inaugurations. I think a pooling of resources for one. I mean quite clearly I mean both unions have got. Problems financially. I mean because of the drop of a membership either the drop of the membership members not paying members leaving the industry members becoming more and more unemployed. There isn't income coming in. So it does make sense to pool your resources. It will make sense eventually to to to have one building to house the Amalgamated Union. It would I mean okay I. I can see it coming that there will be rationalisation of staff. I think as sure as night follows day it's going to happen because there will be a proliferation of officials here and I think you've you've got to have I mean you've got to run a union a bit like a business you've got to be you know Mick you can't run forever run at a loss. So you're not seeking to make a profit but it's nice to have a surplus in your in your in the war chest as such. For for the rainy days but I mean so yes. So yes there will be. There will be I think rationalisation of staff but it would be sensible to have one journal you know you'll be sensible to have one finance department sensible to have one quality and one research department instead of two. You know I mean I think remembers it that it gives greater security greater strength if you've got one union. Sure. Absolutely. And the idea of some beta very much like insert I mean in the be they organised the same grace as we do in ITV for instance. I mean I said one of the criticisms that people made in 77 was okay what do we want to do we want to join up with a union that covers general grades like catering and cleaners. Well we'd bloody well do that already. And that was done for years and years and years we've always covered top to bottom short range or bottom up so there's nothing different. Thank you industrial union you know we've always aimed at being an industrial union. As you say were have been in the land from the word go. Try and where we did not find kind. It was a members were making that sort of comment then but where would they have been without labs help usher in those earlier days when one of our Coopers grumbles always was who do they turn to you know there was during the bloody old labs has to and that was right on that why by blacking stuff. For the mountain amalgam I know I'm pleased amalgamation but went the way it did feel a lot more people voted yes yes it is indeed. This is the previous post it wasn't I suppose at the end of the day it was it would have been horrible if it had been about 15 percent turnout said Yeah it was about 30 percent wasn't well that's not bad compared so to a lot of the local elections it's about a 30 percent turnout was not bad. I was I was fearful it's gonna be about 15 percent and then a very slim majority as it was it was 30 percent and a very clear cut majority Yeah I guess they had a bigger majority than us but ours was about two and a half to one. I mean I did there have been there is a complaint lodged I think with the certification office but it's not anticipated that it would cause any problem at all. It's a question of people not receiving ballot form as well as you know. I mean I believe it's come from T T V S S and not Southampton Maidstone a funny shop any right. I think the stewards complained that a lot of it. Some of his members have never received ballot forms and they don't. Well the thing is I mean they had something like ten weeks to complain to complain. I mean they must have known the ballot was going on. The journal was full of it. Information was coming out. Time and time again on amalgamation to the shop stewards and things I mean the steward obviously wasn't doing his job. He made sure that to put his shop as I was as everyone would see the ballot form if not let me know and I'll get it I'll get onto it straight away because this is what he did. This is what I did at Southampton TVA Southampton. They made sure everyone got their ballot will show. So I mean I think I'll go down. I mean that list of guys don't worry about it too much. It wouldn't have affected the ballot for me we finish. Seems to me Brown that he's interesting reverting to what you said about your education you know. Only for you yeah give me during this interview the impression that you've acquired at least eight a level is during the course of your career and in the union. And in terms of the amount of experience you've had and very experienced I was just wondering if you'd like to sort of finish off by saying what is the fun here with the great moments in general in your career in the union. And how far would you go along with my estimate a day levels. Yes. Nothing. I think the first great moment was being appointed. That was great moment no one great moment is no script no moment. Was I think the the periods of the period that I was working with labs the second time. That was 1965 up to about nineteen eighties fifteen years. I. We brought up a fine lab organized. It was a fine lab organization. We had a lot of respect with the lab management and put up a good rapport with lab managements both collectively and individually. That's why I was disappointed when when the labs broke up as a as a national logo same body I was also disappointed when in fact when I gave the labs over to Ken I mean I mean he didn't work at it. I mean I was always disappointed at that. I mean I'll say that mentioned. Yeah. Yeah. And Robert. Yeah. I mean just I in my view he didn't. It just didn't work out. And the things sort of started going down again which disappointed me actually. I'm going to turn it.

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Branch Hemmings science for you were saying about Kate Roberts. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah I mean and I just felt that you know he put it on the plate for him and he let it go because there was even a chance there was even a chance during that period that Ken had labs that that lab management would most of the lab mice ones would come together as a negotiating body again. And he never brought it up. He never felt like that. I also disappointed me. Yeah. But I think I've never said I've never been disappointed with any agreement I've negotiated. Okay one concrete one. You can always reflect and think well perhaps I could have done better but at the end of day I always felt that I'd squeezed the most I could squeeze out of the other any company or employer based on the known circumstances at the time. So I really enjoyed your career. I've enjoyed my career. I mean this there's no real highlights as such I've just enjoyed being a full time official show I've enjoyed working with the people I've worked with the colleagues my work colleagues who are my friends a lot of my friends. I mean you know I haven't got too many friends outside of this industry outside of AC DC and because I mean 30 years is a long time here. I've got a lot of respect for for a lot of people in the industry coming coming on. I'm also grateful for a lot of people have helped me over the years and I'm coming back to that line. Saying that you haven't got many friends outside. Is it time for that. That's what I mean. Did you have a lot of evening work. Oh yes. I mean yes there was an awful lot of even work particularly from side because your sexual committees can only meet in the evenings. This is why I'm finding a bit different on back on ITV because I don't get the evening meetings. I don't get the individual phone calls. I mean production is you've got a lot of individual phone calls Lalu individual hours. You don't get I mean to be honest on ITV you don't get many individual phone calls plus the stewards take all the. There's a local business. You don't get any evening meetings but very rarely but you get a lot travelling. But then again I mean if you're traveling you're travelling in the early evening side. And I tend to be on by about 8 a.m. to change or even coming from somewhere like Grand Prix. You can totally rush to play chauffeur. My wife appreciates it. She she's finding it different you know. She's like well you get inside of traveling. No not really it's it's it's it's done. It's quite pleasant because you're sitting back in the train or setting the train not so much a plane but a train you can is what you can do. Yes. So it's documents you can prepare because it's quiet. I enjoy train join us for that but I believe I've met a lot of interesting people sent me including yourself I this over the my past of years. I've got a lot of people to be thankful for. People really helped me an awful lot. I can encourage me on that. Who's giving you perhaps the most encouragement. George George and said and Crake in those early days. Paddy Leach Penny Leach was always helpful to me before he he moved back until he left ICG particularly. He's been supportive Oh he's been helpful. Lay members was as I said. Charlie Wheeler was even I wasn't I just I always got on well which I was always helpful to me he was he was always he gave me some encouragement to kick up a lot of time. But of course i mean alf was great. We made him an offer I built up a good rapport. He is the chair of the lab branch and myself as a full time officer. We've been we had a good rapport going. I built up a similar rapport which only Cummings went through the period for the year. Tony was chair of the at the lab branch. So I mean I've in a lot of good people management wise I've got these moneys which I was I like. Sonny right upfield. Who was it ranked then is it Technicolor and was was one management I got on very well with my Wingrove but technicolour when when one was in charge of Technicolor from the admin side and the early days was so Phillips from side to Howard got to have a show at Pinewood. Andy Mitchell Good good studio manager Andrew and a good friend to a CTG still carries his union card still still holds a city card. All right John and Lee. I mean you know I think they put they put a lot back into the industry. I put a lot back people like that. I mean it's funny I mean the person who I seem to get it was Mike Michael Winner Mary. Yeah. We get on quite well actually. He's an awful so he's a funny bugger you know he's really he's a bully and he's you know he's sort of a bully Michael but he's a character there's no two ways about. He's a character. He's very much a question Brian you know during through that you have a capacity for getting on with people and oh yeah I've always tried to get him onto the right wavelength there is the one contact with that particular person to just right. I've got my own style. Everyone develops their own style. Yes I mean my style was totally different Jack O'Connor's. Jack was a more bullying Polish approach to negotiations. Mine was much different. I tended to follow. I think more than the Craig style of doing things. You know that's that's my style. I couldn't be anything else but that I think it's big it's had an effect I hope over the years. Well you will let me I'm not I'm not packing up work entirely I'm gonna set up on my own. I think I already is deciding today. What the hell I've only got five years to go. What the hell do you do at 60 really. Can you start something on your own. You're a bit late in life. But at 55 you can say I want to start with health and safety has always been a subject that interests me here and therefore cos I mean I did at that time when I was looking after health and safety the U.S. health and safety when the horses were for safety reps. So I want to set up I'm setting up my own National Health and Safety Advisory Service because it's a subject it's the one piece of legislation that the government hasn't tampered with and hasn't taken the rights away from from the unions. So recognize unions have still got a lot of rights if they are prepared to use them under the guise of health and safety. Well anyhow the administration in practice actually is very understaffed doesn't it. I mean am I reading something incredible about what you expected there were yeah. You know again Pat I mean I would not one to God knows how many places I want. To be where we are. We're looking to move house any right down to the New Forest very nice we're about near 40 virtual including bridge we got we've got for a few years we've had that caravan just out about a mile from 43 just outside. So you're gonna buy a house Tony. Yeah we're looking now. We're trying to sell obviously like everyone else where house our house Sandy slow slow moving but eventually we'll sell it and we don't want it. We've got a place we're looking at down there that we've had a couple of look at and actually it's quite good. And it'll be near my daughter where she lives down in Devon now they live down in Devon. So it's a bit nearer I might tell you a grand idea. Not yet. No no no not yet. I haven't joined the company. No not yet. She's doing a futon course at the moment centre for three years so looking looking good looking. I was just going to say if you if you could start again. Mm hmm. That's some good start again I don't know if I'd employ me because I mean the competition is what gets passed over something else you know if I do if I if I know I'd know I wouldn't do what I done I guess I would have enjoyed it. I mean I've enjoyed this some guys there's no money nothing. They've been 30 good years. No I mean that's all. I'm not I'm not I don't feel I've missed anything by bone by being a full time official I've missed nothing. I feel quite enriched. Actually I know I've I've contributed something to society. My honest opinion. That's nice. Well thank you very much. Right and all the best in your future efforts. And thank you for adventure and pleasure. It's been a pleasure. Thank you. Thank you.

Biographical

former professional boxer

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Brian Shemmings

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